Ep. 6 - The Gift of Loneliness: Rebuilding After Divorce

A protective order, drained accounts, and a month without seeing their kids would break most people. Casey walks us through how it felt to sit in a parking lot late at night with no phone, no money, and no idea who would believe him and how that fear turned into a long, grinding divorce process that demanded patience he didn’t think he had. 

We talk about the reality of betrayal and false narratives, why “the person you marry is not the person you divorce,” and how the legal system can move painfully slow even when you’re desperate for justice. Casey shares what changed the trajectory of his case: finding the right divorce attorney, leaning on mediation and third-party accountability, documenting everything, and learning the hard lesson that specificity in court orders matters more than assumptions or good faith. If you’re navigating custody battles, co-parenting conflict, or a divorce timeline that won’t end, you’ll hear concrete guidance on what helped and what he wishes he’d done sooner. 

Then we go deeper into the emotional recovery: faith under pressure, forgiveness as a daily decision, and the role of health and wellness when your identity feels stripped down to the studs. Casey names loneliness as the hidden common ground in divorce and even as a strange kind of gift that forces self-actualization and builds what Abby calls “divorce Kevlar.” If you’re searching for divorce healing, divorce support, dating after divorce, or how to rebuild after infidelity, this story offers both grit and hope. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the line that stayed with you most.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better.
Real stories of divorce andresilience.
The podcast that gets real aboutthe messy middle of divorce and
what it takes to come outstronger on the other side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better.
And I've personally earned mydivorce Kevlar.

(00:23):
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forget and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,

(00:46):
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
Right, but here we are.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
It's been, I don't know.
Oh, 2014 is when I left Walmart.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
Okay.
And so that's what, 10 yearsago?
I can do math.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Yeah.
I gave you an easy one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Wow.
And I remember like coming down.
So for the world, for ourlisteners, uh, Casey and I knew
each other or know each otherthrough Sam's Club.
I was on the membership team.
You were on shows and events.
We would work, we would do a lotof things together.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
At least twice a year for the events and meetings
and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Yeah.
But then you guys were also sofun.
I remember just like, you knowwhat?
I'm just gonna go see what Caseyand Josh are doing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39):
We had a blast.
We got in trouble with HR a lot,but that's okay.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Oh, but we're here on a different note.
Yes.
We're not reminiscing aboutwell, maybe some stories will
come in.
I don't know.
We'll see.
But uh, I feel like we're goingto laugh a lot today.
We might cry a little bit.
That's okay.
I'll let you cry.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Okay, we go.
No, it's about feeling all haspurpose, right?
There's a purpose in this.
Yeah.
So it's all good.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
We'll feel our feelings.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
But first, why?
So you shared a bit of yourstory, kind of in our our
earlier conversations.
It sounds like a roller coaster.
Why go back and like picket thescab and share your story?

SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
I think there's lots of opportunities to learn from
our own experiences, right?
So not just personally andprocessing it and and admitting
what really happened and makingit okay.
And we'll talk a little bitabout that too.
But, you know, you met my twoboys.
They're from that marriage.
So it's something I have to dealwith.

(02:47):
And I need to deal with ithonestly.
Plus, I think there's a lot ofmen out there that have gone
through similar situations orwill go through similar
situations that deserve to hearwhat we talk about and know
that, you know, it's okay to bepissed.
It's okay to go through this andfeel wronged.
If they're the ones that messedup, we'll talk about that too.

(03:10):
But it's okay to be to gothrough things you go through.
I know that sounds really clicheor simple, but people need to
hear that, you know, it's okay.
Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
And I appreciate you being open enough to be my first
male guest.

SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
100%.

SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Yay! Yeah.
I'm yeah, I'm excited for this.
So I appreciate your candor andtransparency, and you just being
kind of truthful with the good,the bad, and the ugly.

SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
And also I think it'd be good for you, right?
Like I was going through theorder of things that happened.
Um, I mean we were finallydivorced after two years in
September of 2017.
Okay.
So it's not as fresh for me likeit is for you.
Hopefully, I could bequease somelike insight and hope for you in
this process.
And let's make fun of somepeople in the process too.

(04:00):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Let's laugh at a few people in our specs.
Right.
It's a coping mechanism.
Yes.
I use humor to cope.
Yes.
Let's rewind the clock a littlebit.
Take us back.
You know, give us the context ofhow you guys met, what attracted
you to each other.

SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
Cool.
So I met my ex in high school.
Um, I was a band nerd, whichended up paying off pretty well
in my career, right?
Just intellectually,experience-wise, um, problem
solving, that sort of thing.
But she was a cheerleader, andnever the two shall meet.
So it was a great experiencethat I had her attention.

(04:39):
Uh, we were ultimately highschool sweethearts, right?
And high school was a prettyinsulated place where you don't
have to deal with reality, withissues and and, you know, uh
process feelings and experiencesinstead of cope with them in
unhealthy ways.
We went to college, kind of wentdifferent ways.
That breakup was what it was,immature reasons, whatever.

(05:02):
Then we actually met up againyears later, after I've been in
the corporate world a bit, she'sbeen in uh the world
experiencing what she'sexperienced, and we just hit it
off again and you know, uh datedfor a while.
There were some red flags, therewere some, you know, because of
the high school experience, thenostalgia clouding my judgment

(05:24):
of reality or creating thisunreal world or person.
But we ended up getting married,having our oldest, um, I think
it was 14 months into ourmarriage.
So, real quick, terrified aboutbeing parents as everyone is,
but enjoyed it, right?
Did that.

(05:44):
Then two years later,pregnancy's rough for women and
for for men, I guess.
Not as much, obviously.
But she suffered somepostpartum, some issues, and
just we never reconciled that.
There was some infidelity on herpart that just became a bigger
issue.

(06:06):
And then uh some challenges withuh, you know, reports being
filed and accusations that turninto like a year and a half at
least drawn-out divorce process.
So that's kind of how we endedup um parting ways, really.

SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Okay.
So high school sweethearts, youwent out and you both sewed your
wild oats for a little bit, andthen you came back together and
like you said, the nostalgiakind of took over.

SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
Had two boys.
Two boys, yeah.
Two boys.
Okay.
So how long were you married?

SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
If you include the separation and the not legal
divorce, four and a half years.
Um, but it was about yeah, I'dsay four years is safe.

SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
Okay.
Well, thank you for just helpingset the stage.
Yeah.
You you got into it a littlebit, but as much as you feel
comfortable, help us understandlike what happened.
How did the D word kind of comeup?

SPEAKER_02 (07:08):
Yeah, we weren't really ones to use that in
fighting, and then all of asudden we were.
I say we.
It was it was really on a fullpart.
And I know it's easy for me tosay that from my perspective,
but I was always gonna be loyalto the point where even through
the separation, when stuff washappening, I actually was

(07:28):
seeking counseling and I was inclinical denial of everything
happening.
So I was gonna be loyal at allcosts.
That's what marriage was, in myopinion, my experience.
But how it came up was justarguments and it would be that
resort.
And and what made me realize itwas a serious issue, because
people say things they don'tmean.
My love language is words ofaffirmation.

(07:50):
So I'm very particular withwords, but that also means I
hold resentment for people thataren't.
So I understood that that was anissue.
Um, but I looked over it waswhenever we couldn't remember
history in the same way, right?
So, like when I would say, Okay,well, let's try to reconcile
this.
I said this, that was wrong.

(08:11):
You said this, that was wrong.
I did this, that was wrong.
Here's where it escalated.
And she would say, No, that'snot what happened at all.
And we couldn't even agree onwhat literally happened.
So I knew that was probably thefirst, there were red flags
before, but that was the firstserious moment where I'm like,
this might not survive.
And then um, when I caught heruh having an affair at uh we

(08:35):
went to a show on Dixon Streetand caught her, you know,
talking to someone um via email.
It was just, it was we weobviously had to ride home
together.
We had babysitters andeverything, had to ride home
together.
Long story short, she called thepolice and said that I was doing
things I literally wasn't doing.
And um, it reminded me of thosemoments where we couldn't

(08:57):
remember what happened, and shewas convinced that I was abusive
and doing all this stuff.
So I'm like, wait a minute.
So I pulled over, police came,said, Hey, nothing's wrong.
But I wouldn't recommend goinghome together.
And I'm like, that's probablyreally good advice, like
prophetic foreshadowing, if youwill.
And then the next week I waslike, he she said she needed

(09:19):
some time, so she went to herparents, and I just worked, I
was doing my thing.
Then one day couldn't find myphone, so realized that she took
it.
And so I went to the store, ATT,to get a new one and try to
figure things out.
And our account had been likedrained.
And then the next day I gotserved with a protective order

(09:42):
that had all sorts of nonsenseabout me being abusive, making
threats with weapons, all sortsof stuff, which throughout the
whole process was evidence thatthat was not clearly not just
not the case, but that was atactic used in other
relationships she had.
So it was it was kind of achallenge.

(10:03):
But that's where it really hitme.
And I'm like, yeah, and then mymom being an attorney in
Oklahoma was like, This isserious, this isn't just a
fight, something you get over,you need to lawyer up.
And that's when it hit me like,okay, this is a serious deal,
this is where it's going.

SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Gosh, yeah, yeah, I know you, and that's that's not
you at all.

SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Right.
So it's wild.

SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
I'm I'm curious of like what you were feeling in
the thick of that bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Oh yeah.
Oh man.
What do we go back?
Sitting in the parking lot ofATT at 10 p.m., having no money
in my account, no phone.
I literally uh I had a Mac fromwork, so I literally FaceTime my
mom through the Mac connected toATT internet, and I was like

(10:57):
sobbing.
I remember being let go fromWalmart and thinking, this is
traumatic, this is a challenge,what do I do?
And then consulting with my mom.
Um, and in fact, my ex, when Itold her what happened, she was
her response was, why did you dothis to us?
And I'm like, that's nothelpful.
So what do I do?
It's like, oh my mom, she helpedme um walk me through some

(11:18):
stuff.
But I remember that feeling likethe lowest point in my life.
Um, there were other momentsthroughout the whole process
that became the lowest sort of anew lowest.
Oh, yeah, it was brutal.
The stair step down.
But it was, I mean, at the atthat moment, having again, I was
in denial, which is basicallyjust living in a delusion that

(11:38):
this isn't real.
Like you'll wake up from it,it'll be better, right?
But yeah, it was one of thesaddest, most terrifying moments
in my life.
And that was when I hadn't seenthe boys in a couple days, but I
thought they were visitinggrandma sort of situation.
So it was fine.
Later, it it became a point oflike anger and not really

(12:06):
entitlement, but what is the Imean, what's the word when
you're like, this isn't fair ifeveryone could see what the
truth is.
I'm entitled to show everyonethe truth, right?

SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Justice, yeah, I guess I know.

SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
And it's not necessarily vindication,
vindication, yeah.
That definitely came.
Uh-huh.
I wanted that.
God provided that, by the way,which I'll tell you about.
But it's it's this everyone likethere's no one sit when
someone's lying to you and youknow they're lying and everyone
knows they're lying, yeah, butthey don't.
Yeah.
It was that but reversed, wherelike everyone was like, Well, we

(12:43):
need to find out what the truthis.
I'm like, telling you what thetruth is.
Here's what's happening.
It's just like no one wouldbelieve your story, sort of
thing.
That was probably one of themost um infuriating, not
paralyzing, um, but infuriatingmoments of the whole process.
Okay.
And terrifying too.

SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
I know the exact feeling without being in your
body.
I know the exact feeling becauseyou know, we went through
depositions and things werebrought up.
And I was like, oh, we can justlie in depositions.
I thought this was a legalproceeding.
Oh, we can just tell lies.
Okay.
Uh obviously.
Wild.
Obviously, I was not lying.

(13:21):
No, for the record.
Just hearing you say that, thatis part of the mission of the
podcast, is for someone else toconnect with.
Yes, you know that feeling.
Yeah.
So, okay, thank you.
Thanks for um peeling back theonion.
Yeah.
Going deep on that one.

SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
It kind of became clear that no, really, it's
looking like divorce.
What did you have to do or getan order or get your ducks in a
row?
Like, how did you have to, whenyou say lawyer up, like what did
that look like for you?

SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
My first goal was to get to see my boys again, right?
So my ex was a stay-at-home mom,and what the with the protective
order and everything filed,which it just seems so unfair
because it's one-sided and itwas an ex parte single party
protective order.
Accusations can be made, allthis stuff.

(14:16):
Boys were removed from me forover a month.
And if I would have known that,I would have been even more
livid, but luckily I didn't.
But I literally went to Googleand was like, all right, who's a
good attorney?
And uh, my mom being inOklahoma, I mean, she would
advise me and say, hey, here'sas your mom, but as an attorney,
here's what I would say.

(14:37):
Luckily, our relationship wasprotected from her being my
attorney, because that wouldhave just been horrendous.
You know what I mean?
But I found an attorney, startedthe process, filed uh just for a
hearing on the protective order,which turned into a separation
for discovery and all thatnonsense.

(14:59):
But that was months going.
We couldn't even get on thedocket for four months, right?
All the while I'm paying amortgage on a home that I am not
living in, commuting fromOklahoma, my mom's house, to a
job in Fayetteville every day.
And it's just, it was wild.
So um, frustration, and that'skind of where I started.

(15:22):
I didn't feel adequatelyrepresented the entire time.

SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
So I dropped that attorney and just set because I
that is important.
Your attorney relationship oryour relationship with your
attorney is important.

SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
So when you say you didn't feel adequately
represented, what do you mean bythat?

SPEAKER_02 (15:41):
Oh, I I am one of those, and I think you and I
have this ability to overlyprepare for things.
So I had screenshots of textmessages, I had a summer, an
executive summary like Idelivered as Sam's for here's
the summary of the issue andwhat you literally need to say
to the judge.
Here's a breakdown and referencetext one for this section.

(16:02):
I overly prepared her.
And it was just a bad experiencethat half of what I prepared her
for didn't even get brought up.
It was, oh, let's just get thisdismissed, let's do this.
And we didn't even address thecustody situation, even just
standard visitation, where Icould see my boys once every two
weeks, which is wild to thinkabout, right?

(16:25):
But I just felt like I wasn'tbeing heard.
And with our legal system, Ineeded her to be that
representative of me and mysituation and what I thought is
there, and then I'm notunrealistic.
I get that she had multipleclients.
But what I was able to do was Ihad a friend reach out from a
prior workplace.

(16:46):
Um, and I'm gonna name myattorney because she was fucking
amazing.
Yeah, please do uh I worked withhim at Best Buy.
He recommended his wife, who wasan attorney, Whitney Matteny,
um, in Bettonville.
Dude, and she was phenomenal.
And I felt like she heard me.
There were moments where I'm, Imean, I'm sure I was billed for

(17:09):
them, but I got to vent and say,here's why I'm feeling these.
And she we had this connectionwhere she could be like, I get
you're feeling this way, butshut the fuck up.
Like, like, especially inmediation.
Like we had to get to thismediation point where we had
property to settle and we weregonna address custody, but I

(17:29):
felt so misrepresented and likeit's moving so slowly, right?
Even mediation was scheduled amonth later.
A lot of texts could happen.
Yeah, a lot of engagements orhearing that mom said or did
this through the boys orwhatever it is could happen.
So I felt like things moveslowly, and I want to vocalize
that.
I want to send a hateful textbecause I'm good with words and

(17:52):
I know how to say it in a waythat will get me in trouble, but
shouldn't say it, right?
And she was able to tone me downwith a lot of this stuff.
Um, I was able to be honest withher about certain things that
may or may not help the case,but she would be like, hey,
that's not bad.
Here's why.
But if you do it again, I'mgonna hurt you.

(18:14):
Like it was true.
I wouldn't recommend going toGoogle.
I would recommend resourcingfrom a reference, a personal
reference, an attorney for asituation like this, because
you're too close to it torepresent yourself, but you also
need someone that freakingunderstands and loves you enough
to represent you adequately.
There were moments in court thatshe would just and it made the

(18:37):
the 12 months of waiting worthit because she would just ask
her a question that would beanswered in a way that was she
thought she was protectingherself, but my attorney would
say, Oh, so this?
Yes, like, but you said thisearlier.
Does this not mean and I wasjust like sitting back there,
thank you, God, thank you, God.
But it was like, that's what Irecommend.
Like they bring you down toreality, you're too into it.

(19:00):
You know what I mean?
You need someone that couldbalance you out.
This is almost a marriageadvice, right?
Um, also, you will be fine.
Loyalty is important.
Uh we get there.
Um, but but that's kind of is ina sense.
Yeah.
So that's what I would stronglyrecommend.
And I wasn't too far gone withissues um with my first

(19:20):
attorney, but my second was apersonal connection and did
phenomenally well representingme, actually getting me custody,
appointing an ad lightum torepresent the boys.
And she she and my mom weredecent friends to the point of
them agreeing on hey, Casey, ifyou just tell the truth, you
have nothing to remember.
If you try to do something wrongor cover it up, you're gonna

(19:42):
have to remember that, then thenext one.
So it was really easy for me ifI would just tell the truth.
So it was it was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Yeah.
Uh that was my reco there.

SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
I well, I'm so glad to hear that you got an attorney
um, that you made the decision,hey, this isn't working out.
And which that can be a toughcall.
Yeah.
Like I'm already so far in thisprocess with this person.
Do I just finish it out?

SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
So thank you for sharing that.
No, you pivoted and you found abetter attorney.
And here's how you found her.
Uh, me too.
Like you and I are connected onthe power of the relationship
with your attorney is soimportant.

SPEAKER_02 (20:19):
Amazon history helps.

SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
I didn't know mine from Adam, but again, also I
texted a friend I went to highschool with who texted her
sister, who texted her husband,who then had a contact in
Atlanta.
It's like I shouldn't have evenfound this person.
It's mine was Melissa.
I'll also give a shout out.
Melissa Davis in Buckhead FamilyLaw in Atlanta.

(20:44):
She's amazing.
And very similarly, I would gointo her office and we'd be
like, I need to play red light,green light.
Exactly.
I would say something and she'dbe like, red light.
And then I would say somethingabout green light.
Okay.
Like you need your lawyerbecause you are so close.
And it's like every detailmatters.

SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
Even if you're the most strategic person on the
planet, you are way too close tothe situation to make a proper
judgment about everything.
Right.
Well, and on my my divorce wasso long that I was able to learn
what was right and what wasn't.
And I was because of my wifenow, I'm telling you, she is to

(21:24):
this day my saving grace.
She's the only one thatcommunicates with her.
And I'm relatively healed frommy divorce seven years ago.
Okay.
And it's like, but because I'man emotional person, there's a
lot of history there, lots ofwords that were said that were,
I mean, I reread the ex parteprotective order, got fucking

(21:44):
mad again.
Yeah.
This is years ago.
So it's like all of this, shehelps temper me.
And anyway, all that to say,like you have to have an
insulation for yourself, youknow?

SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Yeah.
So that's part of the process isthe lawyer.
Divorce in and of itself is aprocess and a journey.
So if you can kind of maybe fillin the the timeline a little
bit.

SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
Yeah.
So that protective order wasfiled in April of 2016.
We had mediation and that was aprocess, but we got the
protective order thrown out,replaced with me being in
denial.
We did not do a filing fordivorce yet.
It was a separate maintenance,right?

(22:30):
I still thought it wassalvageable.
I scheduled couples counselingthat turned into my counseling.
But it's like all that through2016, and then mediation
happened in November of 2016.
I ended up getting my home backthat I was paying for from
mediation, which is probably oneof the best experiences of the

(22:51):
whole process.
The more third parties you couldhave, the less gaslighting is
able to happen.
So like she has her story.
You have my I have my story.
Something in the middle isprobably closer to the truth.
The mediators find what exactlythat is.
In this case, it leaned a lotcloser to my story.

(23:13):
That was in January 2017.
I got my home back.
Finally divorced in September of2017.
So it was like a year and a halflater.
And the only reason was wasbecause custody wasn't settled
at mediation.
Um, and there was an examplewhere we went through different
items and all this stuff.

(23:34):
I think I got like four thingsback and the house.
And there were some assumptionsmade that you know, my stuff
would be my stuff, like myclothes and my shoes, and all of
it was gone, except the fourthings that were mentioned.
I mean like a garage full ofstuff, except the four things
that were mentionedspecifically.
So, like a dining room table andchair, whatever.

(23:56):
Everything else was gone, likegolf clubs, everything you
assume.

SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
So don't so what's that?
What do you think the lessonthere is?

SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
Just for other lists.
Specificity is key.
I do.
I do not assume goodness fromeither side, like specifics or
pictures.
Like I should have takenpictures when I was in the
garage once or twice.
I should have been specific andhad my attorney write in all

(24:24):
Casey's items.
What does that mean?
Duh.
My shoes, clearly my items,right?
Like all these things.
Specificity and orders is veryimportant.
And that literalism was taken uhand used against me, or the lack
of literalism, I guess.
Okay.
That's the word.
But anyway, I'd say specificityis key.
Don't assume anything, becauseit's the word of the law that

(24:49):
matters, not the spirit of it,especially in a divorce.
Yeah.
So that's kind of my experience.

SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
And other guests have echoed that also.
Um there's a quote that a friendtold me that the person you
marry is not the person youdivorce.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
And it's very true.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's goodadvice because I thought, why
did I not see this before?
But it was not the same person,not at all.
So it's really good advice.

SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
Okay.
So specificity.
Uh, you it sounds like you had apositive mediation experience.

SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
It was a phenomenal experience.
So my ex came in with status quoas her cur chip, bargaining
chip, right?
Like she was in control of thesituation, living in the house.
Um, she didn't have a job, so Iwas the only one on the
mortgage.
And the mediator in Arkansas, Iguess both are on the deed

(25:45):
regardless.
But the mediator said, Okay,Casey's paying the mortgage.
So if you want that, you can buythe house from him.
In that discussion, her pridereally hung her out the dry.
And she said something to theextent of, my family is wealthy.
I could buy the house right nowif I wanted to.
And the mediator said, Well, Iguess alimony's off the table.
And I'm like, Thank you, Jesus.

(26:06):
Like, that's just a foot andmouth thing.
That's the opposite of it on mypart.
But mediation is whereeverything got aired.
And for the house, she tried touse custody of the boys as
leverage there.
And the mediator said, Well,your children aren't property.
That's not what today's about.
So that kind of just tainted thewhole situation for her trying

(26:29):
to do something like that.
But having more unbiased peoplein the discussion helped me.
In fact, later through the wholeprocess, like before divorce was
final, our judge, God bless hersoul, going through this whole
thing, said, Hey, when westarted this based off what was
filed, Casey was down here.

(26:51):
However, I've seen that role.
She actually said to ourattorneys, like that role has
switched as we get moreinformation.
So I don't know what advice thatis, but what advice do you think
that is?
Well, I think for me, lookingback, patience was important
because the truth would come tolight.

(27:11):
Like, I know the justice systemis not perfect, that's without
saying, but it's time consumingfor a reason.
Like, you know, when youinterview someone and they're
like the perfect candidate, thenyou call them again and you call
them again, and then you'reabout to make an offer, but you
haven't yet.
And if they're frustrated, theythey're clearly voicing that.

(27:33):
You get to know someone a lotbetter through multiple
engagements, through multipleinteractions with them.
It's even more so with court.
I think patience for me was thebest lesson.
Trusting the process, especiallyif you're in the right.
Nine times out of 10, that'sgonna be proven.

(27:53):
Now, litigation might take upsome of that.
An expensive attorney or someonewith deep pockets might be able
to subsidize lengthening thatout, but it's all gonna come to
light.
I think depositions arephenomenal because the truth
comes out in all of that.
Mediation's phenomenal becausethe truth comes out in that.

(28:14):
Court's one of the things thatit's just like it's your
performance.
The others are like milestonesof practice before the concert,
if you will.
So I'd recommend moreengagements in that regard, but
make sure they're documented andmake sure.
I mean, if it's cup, if it'scouples counseling, and that's
kind of the angle you need totake.

(28:35):
If it's co-parenting counseling,which is what my ex and I had to
do, every one of ourco-parenting counselors by the
end of our sessions, and it'slike five for one and then seven
for another, we're gonna testifyfor me.
Every one of them, because thetruth came out in those
sessions.
And it's just one of thosethings that I think the more
light you can expose, the betterit'll be.

SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
I'm almost hearing such a just juxtaposition
between the Casey that wassitting in his car on his
MacBook, terrified, crying, yes,you know, that feeling of like
this isn't fucking fair.

SPEAKER_02 (29:10):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
To you saw all these vindications?
Yes.
I guess examples of vindicationsof things coming back, like
okay, the the process.
You you saw the process, Iguess, becoming fairer.

SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
Yeah.
Um, there were moments that itwasn't, right?
So custody wasn't settled inmediation.
I thought that, and maybe it wasmy expectations too.
Have healthy expectations ofeverything.
If you're going to mediation, asuccessful mediation is both
parties are unhappy because theyhad to meet in the middle,
right?
So I think that's something youhave to have, healthy

(29:46):
expectations that you can't win.
I feel like I won in all thisbecause there were lots of
things that came up.
The protection of my boys wasthe biggest thing.
And that honestly, when pushcame to shove and I was in my
lowest moments, I had nothingelse to say after I've cussed
every word a hundred times andeven curse God that I've since

(30:07):
repented for, like a Jobsituation.
I would finally just say, Allright, God, just protect my
boys.
That's it.
And that got answered with mehaving custody.
That got answered withsituations that the boys were
in, potentially abusivesituations that they were
protected from because they werewith me that weekend or
something.
And it's just all these thingsthat were brought to light

(30:31):
through these experiences.
The ones I'm telling you weregreat, right?
In my favor.
Those are fun stories to talkabout.
There are moments that weren't.
Requesting continues thatdelayed everything six more
months, especially when I hadmet my wife now.
In the heat of that, like beforemediation, we met.

(30:52):
So we were dating while I wasstill not divorced.
Yeah.
So it's like all this process islike, great, we want to actually
date.
We want to have a relationshipand get this behind us, but it
was dragged out because ofcontinuance.
Like those were moments where mywife now was disappointed and we
were heartbroken because we cameout of mediation, not having
that finalized.
The which of the material stuffwas settled.

(31:13):
I'm getting my home back in amonth, but custody isn't.
I still don't get my boys, butevery two weeks, right?
So all these different moments,there's highs and lows.
That's why having someone thatcould protect you from yourself,
having those red light, greenlight moments, quintessential to
surviving.
Absolutely essential to it.

SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
Yeah, you're right.
It's it's not like it was smoothsailing from then on out, and
all these miracles came.
No, there were still highs andlows.
There were still good, good,bad, and ugly.

SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
And arguably, I was I would say things were unfair
more often than they were fair.
Because in in my idea, fairnessis justice today for all the
wrongs that have happened.
It took 18 months to finalizethe divorce.
I still have recordings andmoments of good experiences that
my wife and I relive, but on awhole, that's a 30-minute moment

(32:10):
for 18 months.

SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Yeah.
So I can tell that your faith islike really important to you and
important to this process.
Same, same for me.
It it pivot, I can't imagineit's never been tested harder.
It's never been tested harder.
And I've never, I justinterviewed a friend who said
she kind of misses how close shewas to God in the in the time.

(32:36):
And I can relate to that.

SPEAKER_02 (32:38):
We can turn this into theology podcast if you
want.
But no, it's like it's one ofthose things like without
scripture talks about it,without sin, would we know
grace?
No.
But does that mean we should sinmore?
Does that mean we should pursuedivorcing more?
No.
Without these hellish valleymoments, yeah, we wouldn't
appreciate the mountaintop sunmoments.

SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
So for every horrible experience I had, the
the positive was just had acontrast, you know.
Yeah.
So your faith.
You you leaned into your faithduring this time.
What other tools or resourcesdid you utilize on the worst

(33:21):
days?

SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Oh, yeah.
I think these sort ofinteractions talking to people
that have gone through it too.
I had a neighbor, she was goingthrough a divorce, and then
three months later, my craphappened.
So I was like, we need to grabcoffee.
And we had a conversation, andshe was reassuring about all
this.
And I was like, Oh, okay, thereis hope.
And she gave me advice.

(33:44):
These sort of conversations wereimportant.
Again, I was in a veil of havingbeen gaslit, thinking I'm the
problem, even culturally, right?
Like if a marriage fails, well,husband's fault, probably.
And in Arkansas, especially,that is a pro-mother state, the

(34:06):
status quo was kids will staywith her.
So that reinforces me feelingguilty.
But having these conversationsand reading different things.
Like, I don't know if you'veever read uh Dante's Inferno.
No.
So it's phenomenal.
It's about Dante's trip to hell.
And he goes down this spiral ofthe experiences and the torture

(34:30):
and the level of uh of issuesget deeper and deeper.
You know what the seventh layeris?
The bottom layer is reserved forbetrayers.
Oh.
So I was encouraged that holyshit, it's not just me that's
having such an emotional issuewith this.
Dante, who wrote one of thegreatest pieces of workable

(34:51):
time, said that's the circle ofhell that's reserved for people
to do this to other people.
You know what I'm saying?
And there's a reason that evenJesus in in Matthew twice says,
don't get divorced except forsexual immorality.
Because that's a hard thing tocome back from.
My mom even asked me, like whenI was in denial, the thing that

(35:12):
broke me out of it.
She said, Okay, let's say Katiecomes back, apologizes, is at
our doorstep on her knees,saying, I'm so sorry this
happened.
Here's the guardrails we'regonna set up.
I need you back.
This needs to happen.
What if that happened?
And then imagine a month later,you're sitting on the couch
watching a show, whatever, justin the doldrums of life, and you

(35:34):
hear her phone go off.
What are you gonna think?
And I'm like, holy shit, I willforever assume the worst.
Yeah.
Forgiveness is one thing, andthat's something that is for us,
right?
We have to forgive.
It's the trusting that I don'tthink ever would have come back.
And God was merciful enough toknow that for me.

(35:55):
I think he's merciful enough toknow that for you, that that's
unreconcilable.
And God says it's okay for areason.
You know what I mean?
I'm not trying to justifydivorce, or if you can say,
well, they looked at anothergirl, so I'm out.
No, there's truth, capital T,objective truth to all of this.
And that was really helpful forme knowing that.

(36:17):
And even if you're notreligious, knowing that there's
a true experience of history,here's what really happened,
here's what didn't happen.
Everyone's believing this now.
Why?
Just trust the system and andmake enough opportunities for
the system to ask questionsbecause interrogating falsehoods

(36:39):
is a way you you destroy them.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
So you mentioned your faith, the conversations
with others, but then youmentioned that really, really
hard one, forgive nests.

SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:55):
How in the fuck were were you able to forgive?

SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Well, it's I I have to do it daily.
Martin Luther said we need tolive a life of repentance.
That means we wake up today.
God, I'm sorry for what I didwrong.
I mess up.
God, I'm sorry for what Ididn't.
It's constantly repenting.
Forgiveness is the same way.
It's not a moment of, well, Iwas saved at this conference and
this happened, and that moment,I don't remember the day I

(37:25):
forgave her, but I have tocontinually.
Okay.
And it's one of those things, itgets fewer and farther between
now with where things are.
But I do know for a fact thatI've processed this a lot more
than my ex has.
Um, because if I were to havethese conversations and just my
name on her phone triggers thishorrible engagement for like in

(37:49):
sue, right?
So I feel like it's not just aone-and-done thing.
Like you have to continuallyremind yourself that forgiveness
is for you, it's not a gift forthem.
In fact, forgiveness is gonna bebetter for you and how you're
gonna be at a better place thanthey are.
You know what I mean?
I know that's a bad motive forforgiving, but it's a healing

(38:12):
thing.
And that's not your motiveschange too.

SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
I've heard that from other people I've interviewed
and talked to.
Forgiveness is a sometimes adaily choice, hourly, right?
And it's not for them, it's foryou.
Yeah.
Oh, still working on it.
Sorry about it.
Still working.
I'm looking for like the silverbullet of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02 (38:36):
Time, dude.
I'm telling you right now, time.
That's it's been what seven plusyears for me.

SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
It's been I got my final divorce decree September
of 2024.

SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
Okay.
So months, yeah, seven weeks foryou.
Right.
If there'd be something clinicalif you were at the same place I
am from a uh a time betweenforgiveness moments.
No, that's not okay.
Like you have to cuss, you haveto deal with this shit because
it's fresh.
That's how you process and heal.
Um, but those moments becomefewer and farther between as you

(39:11):
go, I promise.

SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
Okay.
Well, that's hopeful for all ofus.
So other those those tools thatwe mentioned.
I know that health andwell-being was also kind of came
to the forefront for you.
How did you prioritize andmaintain your health and
wellness?

SPEAKER_02 (39:27):
Man, so the beginning of that year, I made a
promise to myself that if Icould run at least a mile every
day, I would reward myself atthe end of the year by buying a
truck or something, right?
Some sort of gift for myself toearn.
And I was doing pretty well allthroughout all that.
I was running a few miles by theend of the year, jumping ahead,
I had like some sort of 780miles, so more than one and a

(39:50):
half miles a day or whatever itwas.
But throughout all this, livingat my mom's house, which is one
of the most humbling experiencesa 35-year-old could have.
I was just sitting on the couchand my mom asked me, it was one
day I was like, I'm done withthat.
I'm just done.
I'm going through enough crapnow.

(40:11):
I just need to give myself abreak, right?
That's entitlement, by the way.
But my mom asked, Are you goingto do your mile a day?
And I said, Nah.
She's like, Don't let her takethat from you too.
So I immediately got up and wentand ran six or seven miles
because fuck you.
That's why, right?
So I was like, I continued thatprocess.
I continued it on.

(40:32):
And those are the those are thenights I had conversations with
my now wife where how I knew shewas right for me was when we
would talk about things going onon my run.
And I said, here's what she didnow.
And she's like, Okay, stop.
We're gonna pray for her.
And I'm like, this will be allokay.
Like you, I'll pray for you,Abby, and you walk away.

(40:53):
She stopped me where I was goingand started praying.
And I'm like, Well, this girl'sserious about that.
So all these different things, Ididn't let her take that away
from me.
The motivation was different.
So initially I did it forsomething material.
Here it was to give me a senseof myself.
And that was one of the mostenlightening things, too.

(41:13):
When my counselor asked me,like, what do you do for fun?
And I was like, Well, I playwith my kids.
She's like, No, that's onething.
What do you do for fun?
And I would be like, Well, I domarketing.
Like, no, what do you freakingdo for fun?

SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
Wait, marketers were enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 (41:27):
I couldn't, I couldn't answer the question.
I mean, you make it fun, yeah.
Spreadsheets are fun, or youdie.
Those are the only options as amarketer.
Um, do you learn out about datathough?
But all that to say, like, Ididn't know what my answer was.
And then through this wholeprocess and my wife encouraging
me now, like, what do you needto do?

(41:48):
I mean, it's it's funny.
I own a motorcycle, I'm one ofthose guys.
Midlife crisis, early, sure.
But that's something I do forfun.
And it's like, what do you dothat is you, Abby?
You have to identify that.
And it's it could be taken asselfish from people looking on,
but it's also something that'shealthy for you.

(42:10):
And and running was that for me.
I'm in a different season oflife now, clearly, with kids and
all that, then I'm notprioritizing that.
But um, my wife does make me goto the gym and we eat right now,
so it's like that's just a partof our lives.
But the motivation for it was togive me something that I own,

(42:31):
right?
So that that's that's why.

SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
I want to talk a little bit about something that
you brought up that was kind ofa light bulb moment uh for me.
And I think it it aligns withwhat we're talking about here.
You've got a lot of time on yourhands.
Talk to me and us aboutloneliness.

SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
Oh god.
The more I've thought aboutthis, yeah, the more I think
ironically, it's what we allhave most in common.
Really.

SPEAKER_01 (43:04):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
Because everyone faces that.
And on the weekends I would havemy boys, I would get to play dad
and you know, remember how toinstall car seat again and and
change diapers and all thatstuff.
But when it was just me, evenjust driving to work, like an
hour from Oklahoma on over, itwas that.
When I was laying down to bed atnight, that's when everything

(43:26):
flooded in.
Like, oh crap.
Okay, what's happening?
Should I have regret for this?
Am I wrong?
And all this stuff would come upand and and issues.
And then running, even like atnight when I get home from work
late, I go on a run.
It was quiet and lonely when Iwasn't talking to someone or
listening to music or whatever.
And I was just with my thoughts.

(43:48):
And I mean, I joke to you aboutpunching trees, literally
punching trees, just thinkingabout things that happen.
I'm walking, I'm running by atree and I just punch because I
have to do something to fit.
Fucking tree.
I've been told.
I've been told by my attorney toshut the fuck up.
I can't punch anybody else.
So let's just do that.
And it was just one of thosethings.
Like I had these moments ofthose are probably some of the

(44:10):
lowest moments when I was bymyself, had no distractions,
work was caught up.
So I couldn't even drown myselfin work stress.
I didn't have the boys yelling,distracting, but I was just
alone by myself, thinking aboutall this stuff.
And again, that's you mentionedfate.
That's where that came in,because I was never really
alone.
But even without that, it'syou're forced to take an

(44:35):
inventory of yourself mentally,emotionally, and you got to deal
with that shit.
But now, like coming out ofthis, talking to you about it, I
realize that's the one thing,whether it's a dad trying to get
custody of his boys, whetherit's a woman that's married to
someone for a fucking decade ofher life that's trying to cope
with losing that.

(44:56):
We all have those moments ofloneliness that we're we've we
feel most alone, but that's themoment that we have most in
common with the differentstories you and I have, for
example.
And it's I think there's somehealing to that.
I can't unpack, I don't reallyknow why.

SPEAKER_00 (45:16):
Yeah.
But I think it does connect usbecause I know when you I know
when you said that word, I waslike, yeah, I felt lonely a lot.
How is it fair that he gets to,you know, not experience
loneliness because he cheatedand now he's with her, and so he
doesn't have that sense ofloneliness.

(45:37):
And I'm here with the dog,feeling like I've got no one.
In reality, I've got my mom,I've got my sister.

SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
I know what you mean.
But but let's look at it thisway: he doesn't have the gift of
loneliness.
He doesn't get to us about thegift.
He doesn't get to move.
He doesn't get the process shit.
He doesn't ever have to addresshis real self ever.
How many people do we work withat Walmart that were like that?
That's just, I bet you're boringas fuck outside of the building,
right?
Just because we're talking aboutwork and that's all it is.

(46:09):
Like you know nothing aboutmusic, you know nothing about
art, you know nothing aboutriding motorcycles, whatever it
is.
We have no connection apart fromthis spreadsheet I'm handing you
right now.
What he will never have thatdepth of self-actualization that
you have today going through theshit you've gone through, having

(46:30):
the connection to my worstmoments of life.
I've had a pretty posh life.
But some of the emotional downsI've had, no one else has
experienced in the UnitedStates, probably.
Probably, but we have that incommon.

SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
You know what?
My div my my divorce lawyer, shecoined this term.
We were like in mediation, andthe mediator was on the other
side, and she and I wereshooting the shit back and forth
because she's awesome.
Right.
I love her.
And she was like, You've earnedyour divorce, Kevlar.

SPEAKER_02 (47:01):
Yep.
That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
I'm like, oh my gosh, I have.
Like, you can't, nobody can hurtme any worse.

SPEAKER_02 (47:09):
Like Kevlar is such a great example.
What does Kevlar protect youfrom?
Freaking bullets, right?
You're going into whatever nextbusiness relationship, whatever
next personal, intimaterelationship, more equipped and
educated than ever before.

SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (47:25):
Ever.

SPEAKER_00 (47:26):
You're right.
And the loneliness got you that.

SPEAKER_02 (47:30):
100%.
It was the it was the atmospherethat allowed you to equip
yourself with that kebloir.
I like that.

SPEAKER_00 (47:35):
The gift of loneliness.
That's could probably gonna bethe title of this episode.

SPEAKER_02 (47:39):
Maybe I like that.

SPEAKER_00 (47:40):
That's so good.
That loneliness, that time youhad, like in your thoughts and
in your feelings.
What values became clear for youthat you're like, okay, these
are non-negotiables?

SPEAKER_02 (47:54):
I think that prayer I told you that I always
resulted towards was justprotect my boys, you know, to
hell with me, to hell with her.
I've cussed around enoughbecause I couldn't do it via
text in person, any of that.
God's my vindicator, justprotect them.
That's all I want.
From a value standpoint, I thinkjust being honest was a big key.

(48:17):
I think, and that was reinforcedin those moments of loneliness.
If I would go to bed having saidsomething, I shouldn't have
said.
I'm based with it there.
If I go to bed having donesomething, I shouldn't have
done.
I'm faced with it there.
And people that don't have, I dolike the gift of loneliness.
That's brilliant.
I do think that without that,you don't have those assessments

(48:41):
of value.
And again, my values are myfamily.
And that was part of the wholeseparation of my ex and I, like
she was, but she's not.
And you know, she was someone Iwas protecting.
Now she's the enemy, let me putit that way.
I know it's more spiritual morethan physical, but dude, when it

(49:01):
comes to this, yeah, divorce,there's a me versus you
situation, right?
Right.
So I think from a valuestandpoint, and even now, not
coming in guns blazing, tellingyou all the dirt I have on her,
protecting her because my boysare gonna hear this episode
someday.

(49:21):
So, like very much beingrespectful in what I don't say
or do because of those values,and I want to instill that
strength in strength is in notyou know having the skill but
not having to use it.
The warrior in a garden sort ofscenario, I could burn her down

(49:42):
if I needed to, if I wanted to,but there's more impactful
reasons not to.

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
Yeah, I mean you do you do co-parent with her, and
that's that yeah, I've also, youknow, uh from others that that
have talked to me, they're like,Abby, you are so lucky, you
don't have kids.
You you don't have to you canjust walk away.

SPEAKER_02 (50:09):
As if it's that easy, but you're absolutely
right.
You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
Right.
Yeah, you you know, in what'swhat I hear most common from
others who have had childrentogether that to co-parent is
it's a constant struggle.
Yeah.
I mean, because you areco-parenting with this person,
and you have to sometimes biteyour tongue and play nice and do
these things because that valueof putting the kids first, yeah,

(50:34):
that's what that means.
That's what that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 (50:36):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (50:37):
So what maybe what other deal breakers became clear
for you as you embarked on yournext relationships?
That's good.

SPEAKER_02 (50:49):
That's good.
Wow.
You know what though?
This is something I justrealized.
Like I met my uh as a Christianguy, I met my wife on Tinder
because that's what you do.
Um but I did that's a fun one toshare with the church small
groups, by the way.
Um I realized thenon-negotiables were more about

(51:11):
who I am.
And I know that sounds reallyprofound, but on Tinder, if I
connected with someone I thoughtwas attractive and they love
rock climbing, guess what I canGoogle and become an expert at?
If I if I connected with someonethat hated kids, guess what I
can justify my co-parentingrelationship as?
Like you only have to deal withthem half the.

(51:32):
So, all this shit, I couldbecome whoever I wanted to be to
please whoever.
And I realized that's what I didbefore.
That's what I did a lot of mylife.
Finally, when I decided, youknow what?
What do I want to be identifiedas?
Dad, because they're not goinganywhere.

(51:52):
In fact, I've added, I'm addingthree more to the mix.
Um, uh, but a dad is what I needto be noticed as.
Honestly, that took priority atthat time.
So I changed my Tinder profilepick to be me and my boys.
And then whatever I said thatwas witty, because I'm a
marketer, fell in lineunderneath that.
And whatever I enjoy, music, Igot a degree in music.

(52:14):
So all that stuff came to theforefront.
Um, faith was a big part of ittoo.
So I changed everything toreflect that.
I connected with Whitney thatweekend because I was who I am.
And it was like exactly what Ineeded to do to find exactly who
needed to find me at thatmoment.
So it was more about, yeah,there are some things, but
everyone's not perfect.

(52:37):
So if you have a laundry list ofnon-negotiables that is fucking
absurd, you're gonna be alone.
So it's more about you being whoyou are and being unwavering on
that stance.
I mean, it was fun talking topeople that were into rock
climbing.
I freaking hate rock climbing,but I could use the right
terminology.

(52:57):
I can say that here in Benton.
No, huh?
Well, I live in Batesville,which is the number one rock
climbing area in Arkansas.
Like, what?
Anyway, but I think it's moreabout who you are and be
unwavering in that.
That's the non-negotiable.

SPEAKER_00 (53:10):
I might actually change that question because
that is such good advice.
I mean, I still think you knowthere's red flags that success
we're wanting a husband.

SPEAKER_02 (53:24):
Okay, I know we live in the age we live in, but
that's what you're looking for.
So there are somenon-negotiables of being male,
of having a job, yeah, all thisshit, but it's more important
about who you are.

SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Yeah.
And so maybe I changed thatquestion to what did you have to
or what did you change aboutyourself in order to attract the
next partner for you?

SPEAKER_02 (53:50):
I like that.

SPEAKER_00 (53:51):
Me too.
I'm literally changing as we go.
Change of the script.
Yeah, I love it.
Okay.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (53:57):
Well, it's funny.
I didn't even think about thatuntil now when you asked that
question.
And I thought, what did I changeabout me?
My profile pick, but why?
Right.
You know?

SPEAKER_00 (54:06):
Oh, that's great.
So, what other gifts oropportunities did your divorce
bring you?

SPEAKER_02 (54:15):
I think relatability is one of the biggest ones.
So I think blended familiesaccount for 75% of marriages and
households in the US.
And when I was trying to seekhelp, before I talked to other
divorcees or I talked to alicensed counselor that has

(54:36):
dealt with this, or a couplestherapist that has been
divorced, I would talk to apastor or some spiritual leader
that has been married to theirwife for 40 years and cannot
relate to what I'm goingthrough.
I would say the relatabilityaspect is a big part of it.
And in fact, my wife and I havebeen able to counsel some people

(54:57):
in premarital counseling saying,listen, shit's gonna get real.
How real do you want to addressit beforehand?
Or do you want to address itduring?
Like, which is it?
I would say that was one of thebiggest benefits of this whole
thing.

SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
I relate with that.

SPEAKER_02 (55:15):
Yeah, you do 100%.

SPEAKER_00 (55:19):
So if you could go back and, you know, this Casey
who's seven years out, youhaven't lost your spirit.
You're like the same Casey thatI knew back in Synth Club days.
What would this Casey say tothat Casey that was just going
through the muck of it?

SPEAKER_02 (55:40):
Yeah.
And I think my faith helped mesee this ahead ahead of time.
But I I would I would literallysay, there's the worldly side
that is buckle the fuck up.
Okay.
Just buckle up.
Like process what you need toprocess, cry when you need to
cry, but don't feel entitled tosay something because you want
to be justified in your owneyes, right?

(56:01):
Then there's another one thatwould say it will be worth it.
I knew it.
I knew the scriptures of, youknow, God works all things out
for the good of those that lovehim and that are called
according to his purpose.
I knew while, oh, I heard thison the way here, and I want to
tell you this bankruptcy issomething that is they've
they've said it comes on slowly,then it comes on suddenly.

(56:24):
So it is there's behaviors thattrigger the move in that
direction, and then you'rebankrupt.
So I think divorce is the sameway.
So I take ownership of theslowly part.
I nurtured my ex and I'srelationship to the point of
that in some respects, some ofit was literally clinical that I
couldn't have avoided.

(56:45):
And I take ownership of what Icould have, right?
But the sudden part is somethingI feel like I was blameless for.
I say blameless, not at faultfor.
Um and ultimately I I would justsay I I saw all that to say the
faith encouraged me to know thatit will work out.

(57:07):
I would reassure myself that,dude, I'm seeing it, it does
work out.

SPEAKER_00 (57:11):
Like, hey, Casey, back in what 2017, yeah, it's
it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02 (57:18):
Well, and here's where it comes from.
So in college, I had thisprofessor that was
anti-Christian, and I don't meanlike agnostic.
I mean like, oh, you'reChristian, I'm gonna spear you.
Like, that's what it is.
Somehow we were communicating onsocial media, and he sent me
this list of a hundred pluscontradictions in the Bible.
Being some sort of likesnot-nosed freshman in college

(57:41):
that came from high school,insulated with this, not really
having to go through shit.
My roommate and I were like, wewere like crying.
This is the most complicatedthing I've ever seen.
And then finally, my roommatesaid, Okay, dude, well, either
he's right or God is.
And I'm like, Okay.
So we spent like eight hourslike researching history and

(58:02):
finding out like what the Greekmeant, and here's why, like
literally finding apologeticanswers to these questions and
sending them back, which hedidn't give a shit about.
But what that did was for me andmy faith, knowing that, okay,
going through all this, if Ifeel like I'm in the right, if I
feel like there's not a lot Icould have done to avoid this

(58:24):
nonsense, then God's gonna makeit work out.
Or he's not real.
Oh the options, you know?
And it worked out for me, it'sgonna work out for those that
are in the same vein.
I do think we owe it toourselves to talk to those
people that are the reason forall this shit.

(58:45):
It you're doomed to fail.
You're doomed to fail.
Like it might look like yourhusband's in a good place, ex is
in a good place now, but withoutself-actualization, you don't
progress.
You devolve, you don't getbetter, you get worse.
Even though the outside looksdifferent, think about your time
with him.
How substantial was the qualityof the conversations you ever

(59:10):
had with him versus what you andI have had today.
Like honestly.

SPEAKER_01 (59:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:14):
So there's a depth that he will never have until he
has that realization.
And then that's gonna come withuh hit in the face.
What did I fuck up?
The stats show that an affair, amarriage that has that comes
from an affair has a 25% successrate.
Yeah.
Okay, like that's not promising.

(59:35):
So I that's that's my only twocents.
I don't want to neglect thosepeople that are fucking up right
now.
Like you can move in the rightdirection.
And if your partner leaves youbecause you are messing up, then
you're gonna have a better,healthy relationship next.
Like, so all that to say.
Anyway, that's kind of what Ithought about.

SPEAKER_00 (59:56):
So, what do you want people to walk away and take
away from this, from from Iguess hearing your experience,
this conversation today?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:06):
I think it'd be what I would tell myself.
Just tell the truth, and you gotnothing to remember.
That's something my mom taughtme.
My attorney agreed and said,Your attorney tell the truth.
Um, just I mean, just be abovereproach, act above reproach,
then tell the truth.
And it's gonna be fine, it willbe fine.
Okay.
Have uh resources to talk to,whether it's this podcast,

(01:00:29):
whether it's talking to someonethat has gone through it as
well.
Maybe even on that rareoccasion, have a friend that
hasn't gone through it, thatcares about you enough to
listen.
Like have those sort of peoplein your life to process that and
the realizations.
This is a really simple one,write in a journal.
Yeah.
I started journaling againthrough all this.

(01:00:50):
Yeah.
And some of the stuff I wrotedown, I was like, well, that was
a four-year-old boy that'spissed off about something, or
14-year-old boy.
But there were some profoundmoments, like in the moments of
loneliness, where I just wrotesomething down and I'm like,
counselor, let's talk aboutthis, or the therapist, let's
talk about this today, which ledto what do you enjoy?
Um, writing was one of those,and and music and all this other

(01:01:14):
stuff.
But I would say journal is a bigpart of it, document everything,
right?
That prepares you for court too.
Yeah, yeah.
My God, yeah, tons of that.
But also, if you're in theright, you will be taken care
of.
Okay.
I know you will.
And everything's gonna come tolight, everything will, it's
unavoidable, and you will bevindicated.

(01:01:36):
There's hope for that, I promiseyou.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:38):
Well, I I agree with with your experience and with
the vindication and thatjustice, I guess, that that came
back to you in time.
So thank you so much for sharingyour story, for making us laugh

(01:01:59):
and and maybe making us think alittle bit and kind of go deep
inside to the darkest depths ofour soul.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:06):
It's there.
I mean, it's there foreverybody, isn't it?
Like we just have to face itbecause of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:11):
And that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:12):
It is.
It is.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:13):
Don't neglect that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:14):
Yeah.
Divorce is one of the hardestthings one can go through.
And you're not alone.

unknown (01:02:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:23):
Casey, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:24):
Thank you.
This is this is healthy.
This is good for me.
I hope it was good for youtoday.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:27):
It was.
It was.
Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:28):
Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:29):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.

(01:02:50):
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.