April 2, 2026 • 34 mins
Divorce doesn’t always arrive as one explosion. Sometimes it shows up as a quiet, relentless grind that slowly convinces you something is fundamentally off. I sit down with Tanya Garcia to talk about what it’s like to realize the cracks are there early, push through anyway, and then spend years trying to make a marriage work while your body and mind are screaming for relief.
Tanya takes us from a lightning-fast courtship and a big move to France to the reality of daily incompatibilities, chronic stress, and therapy that can’t fix patterns that won’t change. We talk about becoming parents under pressure, including the fear and exhaustion of a premature birth and NICU time, and how different stress responses can turn a partnership into a constant competition. If you’re searching for divorce support, emotional healing, or just a truthful story about resilience after divorce, you’ll hear your own thoughts echoed back in a way that feels grounding.
We also get real about the divorce process itself: what happens when one person doesn’t want to end it, why things can turn financially contentious, and how long it can drag on through lawyers, mediation, and arbitration. Tanya shares what kept her steady, especially as a mom: focusing on what her child needs and holding onto the simple truth that the suffering would end.
By the end, we zoom out to the takeaways that matter most: the nonnegotiable values divorce clarifies, the complicated grief of wishing you left sooner, and the gift of reinvention after divorce, even later in life. If this conversation helps you feel less alone, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these real stories.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
I'm really excited to beinterviewing you and talking
(01:04):
with you.
It's conversation.
It's not an interrogation, it'sa conversation.
I don't know much about yourstory, but I know that we
connected on it when we hadlunch at Alans months ago at
this point.
But if you wouldn't mindintroducing yourself and just a
quick background bio.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Yeah, so it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
For anyone who's watching, TanyaGarcia, I have been living in
Atlanta for about 30 yearsalmost.
I have been, I think importantlyfor this podcast, divorced for
five years now.
I had been married for 16.
(01:45):
I'm trying to do some math.
Yeah, so so technically divorcedfor four called the end of the
marriage a little bit over fiveyears.
I have one son here in Atlantawho is getting ready to go to
college, which is mind-blowing.
But obviously the most importantpart of my story.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Well, thank you for for one for just being here.
And let me ask.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
First of all, I don't think divorce is ever
really in your heart and in yourbeing, at least for me, entirely
behind me.
I think a lot of people I'vespoken to feel similarly.
You move past it, but hopefullyyou're taking learnings from it
and you're letting it inform inin helpful ways your future.
(02:42):
So I think for me that's a veryimportant thing.
But the question about why Iagreed to come and talk about
this very vulnerable, painfulpart of your life from of my
life, it's a really goodquestion.
And when you first initiallytold me about the podcast, I was
like, sure, it's great.
I love talking to Abby, it'sfantastic.
(03:04):
But really, when I delved intowhy I did agree to it, I think
it comes back to the first part,which is you're never really
entirely past it.
No matter how you feel, nomatter what happened, it's such
an impactful and traumaticthing, no matter what the
circumstances are, that I thinkit's helpful for me to process
(03:29):
it and perhaps have aconversation that I haven't had
before about it to help informmy future path.
So that's part of it, and Ithink the other part of it is no
one plans on getting divorced.
And it is incredibly painfuleven in the best of
circumstances.
So if what I have experiencedand learned as a result can help
(03:52):
anybody else, or even just makeanyone else feel like they're
not alone in what they're goingthrough, I'm all for it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah.
I know when I was in the muck ofit, being able to talk with
friends, even new friends, likewe didn't even know each other
that well.
But uh just having someone elsewho was on the other side of it
to say it's gonna be okay isextremely helpful.
So thank you again for not fornot backing out.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
No, of course.
No, I I'm I'm happy, happy totalk about it at at any time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
So let's maybe start from the beginning.
How did you meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
So my ex it's it's a bit of an unusual situation, but
my ex-husband um was in a PhDprogram at Georgia Tech, and so
was my sister.
My mother also worked at GeorgiaTech, big Georgia Tech family,
and my mother was very activewith helping students find
scholarships and jobopportunities and internships
(04:52):
and all of that.
I don't remember exactly how shemet my ex-husband, but she did
meet him and helped him get ascholarship for a summer
program, and then she introducedhim and my sister because they
were both at tech studying, andthey became quite good friends.
I was already working, I was inthe thick of the corporate world
(05:14):
working like 90 hours a week.
So I knew him via my sister andinteracted with him at times.
My parents are always hostingpeople for dinner, so he was
there from time to time, and sothat's how we met.
He and my sister became goodfriends, they did a lot of stuff
together, and and we hung out afew times as a result of that.
(05:35):
He's very smart, he's veryclever, he was just very
refreshing to me because as muchas I've been in the corporate
world my whole life, I like tohave fun, I like to have clever
conversations, as do mostpeople, I think, but we just had
that.
And I think there was a certainelement of comfort and safety
(05:55):
with the fact that he was afriend of my sister's and I had
had some not greatrelationships, as is the case
for most of us previously.
So there was a certain elementof just comfort that was very
natural.
So that's how we met.
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
It just sort of happened one night with a little
too much alcohol, and I'm gonnabe curious how many stories have
alcohol in them?
Yeah.
So when I interviewed stories, alot of the stories.
The great liquid courage.
Correct, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
The great, yes.
So it just kind of happened, andI was at a point in my life
where I I had always wanted toget married and have a big
family and children, and just dothat.
That was very much part of myDNA.
I was 31, all of my friends weremarried and we're having babies
(06:49):
and all of this stuff, and hewas very expressive about his
feelings for me.
I I felt very comfortable withhim, we had a great time, so it
was just kind of normal andeasy, I would say.
And I'll just, you know, goahead and say this is probably a
precursor to some otherquestions, but we started it
(07:11):
wasn't even really dating.
It was just sort of we weretogether.
He was finishing up his PhD, hehad an opportunity to move to
France for his postdoctorate.
We started dating in March.
We knew pretty quickly he wasgonna be moving to France, and
he asked me if I would go, and Isaid, I'm not going without,
(07:32):
like, I'm not leaving everythingI've built unless we're married.
And so we got engaged in August,just five months after we
started dating.
Oh and then we married inDecember.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (07:44):
Yeah, so we got engaged in August, he was in
France, I was here, so we wereseparated, and then we got
married in December.
Okay, and then I moved to Franceand we were there for for two
years.
So it was a very, very, veryquick courtship, yes, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Yes.
That there wasn't even reallycourtship, it was just we're
together.
Yeah.
So it sounds like he won somepoints because he was
comfortable, easy, clever,credible.
Yes, absolutely.
So describe the family dynamic,yeah, the family and marriage
dynamic.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
We spent the first two years of our married life in
in France, away from all family,all friends, everything, in a
very in sort of concentratedtime together where it was just
us.
And there were there were crackspretty early on, which I know is
(08:40):
the case for some people, notthe case for everyone, but I
what I expected to be this sortof romantic, oh now we're in
Paris together, and I've lefteverything for you, and here I
am, and didn't really happen.
I think in retrospect, I know weare so different.
What is important, deeplyimportant to each of us within a
(09:01):
relationship, is very different.
And that was apparent to mevery, very quickly.
And I remember having some ofthose initial misgivings that I
did not know how to process.
But I would even send my mom andmy sister these messages saying,
I think I made a mistake, I Idon't, this is does not feel
(09:22):
right.
But being very stubborn as I amabout the fact that this was
going to work, it had to work.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
There was a veil of you had given up so much
everything, your entire life,yes, pretty much, yes, to make
this move and transition.
Yeah.
So it had to be.
This is the only plan.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
No.
Of course, now I know likethere's always a way you figure
out the plan B, but at the timeit was just no.
Like I there was I could notwrap my head around it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
So take us through what happened as the idea of
divorce maybe started to youknow, maybe it wasn't like
blinding headlights from asemi-truck.
Maybe it was a little moresubtle, but but take us through
that process of where thatrealization came.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Yeah, there were absolutely times in those first
couple of years where I was sortof smacked with the reality that
this was not what I expected.
But I again I I I could not, asyou said, wrap my head around
the plan B.
And so we moved back to the US,we moved back to Atlanta where
(10:39):
my family is.
So that was in 2005, and thenthere were more and more sort of
cuts, right?
I I refer to them as cutsbecause you know the average
death by a thousand cuts reallyapplies, and it's easy to just
dismiss one or another, but overtime that cumulative effect is
pretty significant.
(10:59):
So we moved back.
I at the time was 34.
I really, as I mentioned,desperately wanted kids.
That became a point ofcontention for us, but I did end
up getting pregnant, and I'llsay this: we ended up in uh
therapy almost as soon as we gotback, which was scary because my
(11:21):
parents had been togetherforever, his parents had been
together forever, and in mymind, it was we're a union if we
already need therapy.
So that's why it was scary.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
It's like, shouldn't we still be in the honeymoon for
that?
Correct, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
Now, I'll also say I think it's very healthy if
you're having if you'restruggling with things to go to
therapy and and try to fix them.
So then a year later, I gotpregnant, and it was a very
scary, anxious, again, one ofthose this is not going the way
I expected it to go.
I was scared because it's ascary big thing.
(11:58):
He was angry and scared in a waythat I didn't expect.
That was something we had towork past, and we did, and then
we had our son, and that was awhole other stress.
He was born early.
There was a lot, there's atremendous amount of stress that
came into our marriageconsistently.
What became clear was that theways we handled stress were so
(12:20):
different from each other, andthe ways we dealt with sort of
the everyday stresses of beingan adult were so different.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Can you give us an example of how you guys were
different in terms of stressmanagement?
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Yeah.
So I am, as I mentioned, verystubborn, and I'm sort of a, and
I don't say this as a as a goodthing.
I am sometimes it's good, but Iam very much a you just gotta
push through.
Like you you gotta, you gottakeep going, you don't get
paralyzed by the fear, you justkeep moving and you'll figure it
out, and this is just the way itis.
(12:57):
He does not operate that way.
All of the stressors that cameat us individually and as a
couple, he reacted to it in avery different way.
He became very focused on hiswork, his career, what he
needed, and our son had beenborn premature, he was in NICU
(13:18):
for a week, it was a verystressful, he wasn't eating, he
had to take appetite stimulant.
It was very just yeah, he wasfour pounds.
You know, it was a verystressful, intense entry into
parenthood.
And my ex-husband really wentinto that like hyper focus.
I'm gonna control what I cancontrol.
(13:38):
And in many ways, I was in thisthere is no control.
Like I am up all night, I'mtrying to feed this kid, I'm
trying to make sure my career, Iwas the breadwinner, my career
stays on track, just verydifferent approaches.
His family is very differentthan mine, so that added some
stressors.
(13:59):
There were very few commonthreads, and it didn't feel very
much at that early, reallysignificant test that we had a
common thread, uh, and and itwas like, okay, we're in this a
hundred percent together.
So that was the first big one,and we worked past that.
(14:20):
We were in therapy for the bulkof our marriage, but over time,
what really startedcrystallizing in my mind were
was there's some really keybehavioral things that that are
painful for me that that don'twork for me, and I don't think
they work for our family.
And we did go through a lot oftherapy, but the behaviors
(14:40):
weren't changing, and so I thinkprobably at about the 12-year
mark, we really did come to aperiod where it was like this is
imploding.
It was a very difficult time forboth of us, but we went back
into therapy, we had taken ahiatus.
I'm trying to remember exactlythe the sequence and condense it
(15:02):
all, but we kept at the therapy,but again, that behavior wasn't
changing, and then eventually Igot to the point where I
thought, you know what, I needto go to therapy on my own
because the things that botheredme from the very beginning are
still bothering me, therefore, Idon't have a whole lot of faith
that they're gonna change, andso I have to figure out how I'm
(15:25):
going to deal with all of this.
I I think I knew then thatdivorce was probably inevitable.
I say this to a lot of people,but many ways I grieved the end
of my marriage while we werestill technically married.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
So about 12 years in is when yourealize this is maybe heading
towards divorce.
Yeah.
Talk to us about how it came up.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
That's an interesting question because,
well, it it came up so often.
You know, we talked about it intherapy, but then sort of again
at that like 12-year mark, Ithink we both sort of started
hinting at it.
Like there were times where heand even earlier had said, I'm
(16:10):
just gonna move out.
And I was like, uh, okay, that'sthat's a final act.
I think we both realized thatthere were some fundamental
flaws in the relationship and inthe union, and it came up, and
then we just both pushed throughbecause I think we were both
scared.
And we had a kid.
We had a family, even if itwasn't the family that I wanted,
(16:34):
it was a family, and it was veryit was the most important thing
to me.
We kind of tiptoed around it,and then I got to a point at
again, I'm using it just interms of like years, I don't
want to give exact years, but wehad been married for 15 years.
Um, we needed to move and we'retrying to figure out where, and
it was so problematic, and itwas so much tension and
(16:56):
conflict.
Everything was a conflict.
At one point, he said, I don'twant to keep looking for a house
because I feel like it's goingto be the end of us.
And in my mind, it was if that'sgonna be the end of us, then the
end is here, right?
Because that should not break amarriage, a a good marriage.
(17:20):
And then a few months later,after we had bought the new
house, I hit an absolute, Icannot do this anymore.
I at the worst possible time.
We were in the middle ofrenovating a brand new house, we
were living in another housejust in the interim.
Our son had just started a newschool, and interestingly, I
used to always say to him, I'mgonna hit a limit.
(17:42):
I'm going to hit a point of noreturn where I'm not gonna be
able to salvage this.
I'm I'm just it's gonna be toomuch.
And I hit that point.
So then I I basically said, I II just I can't do this anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
And it made it finite this time because you
were at that limit.
I was.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
I was absolutely at that limit.
It was deeply impacting my son,the constant conflict.
I was exhausted.
I'm a pretty high energy, prettyhigh threshold person, but I
just was tired of the constantbickering and the what felt like
a competition of wills all thetime.
I just I I did.
I hit a I had an absolute pointthat I could not come back from.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
So you hit that point, yeah, and then you have
to gear up for divorce.
Yeah.
What did you need to get inorder or learn or do in order to
start the divorce process?
SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
So I had started individual therapy about a year
prior.
One of the things I reallyneeded was the validation that I
had tried everything I possiblycould try.
Yes.
And that I wasn't just saying,oh, we've hit a bump in the
road, I'm out of the car.
That was very, very important tome.
(19:00):
So I needed that just from mytherapist and objective third
party.
But the other thing I reallyneeded from the people who knew
me came when I started, frankly,sharing some of the stuff that
had been going on in themarriage.
The people who really saw itmost were my sister, who I'm
very close to and who obviouslyknew him longer than I had, and
(19:22):
my parents.
I first started with my sister,and when she said, Yeah, we've
been seeing this, that wasanother thing that I needed.
And when I started talking to myclosest friends, because I'm
pretty siff upper lip, keepgoing, but when I started
talking about it with my closestfriends, they were all very much
(19:44):
in the Yeah, Tanya, like duh.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
They could they could all see something that you
couldn't see.
Yeah, absolutely.
And what did it feel like to getthat validation?
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
It was it was very humbling in a lot of ways
because I was like, oh mygoodness, these people stuck by
me in all of this discomfortthat they sat in also that I
didn't even realize they weresitting in.
Um, and so in that way it wasvery humbling.
I felt extremely grateful tohave the people who were willing
to say, yes, this is not okay.
(20:18):
And do what you gotta do.
You're gonna get through it.
You're strong, you're gonna getthrough it.
It was very, very, veryimportant.
And then there were people who Ididn't even know that well who
knew what I was going throughbecause when you do go through
divorce, it affects every partof your life who may not have
even known my husband.
And and they basically said,Look, you're tough, you're
(20:39):
strong, you're smart, the onlyway out is through.
You just keep going.
That was very sort ofstrengthening for me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Like, yeah, I do push through.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Yes, okay.
I'm not making a rash decision,I'm not making an emotional
decision, which is funnyconsidering that I even thought
that considering the fact thatwe had spent the bulk of our
marriage in therapy.
But yes, I needed that sort of,yeah, okay, it's okay to to call
it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
That validation of I have tried everything resonates
so much with me, and I hope withother listeners.
I remember I would call mycousin probably sometimes three
times a day.
I mean, she was my lifelinethrough this.
And I remember I needed to havea conversation, and she said,
(21:25):
Abby, don't you just want tomake sure that you've tried
everything?
And I want to be able to say,Yes, I've tried everything.
So that just resonates so much.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
It does.
I think for most people, it'sthe loss of a dream, it's the
loss of the future that youplanned.
It's so shattering in every way.
And I think it is important forpeople to hear, yes, you've
tried everything.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So on a scale from maybe one to ten, one being easy
peasy, ten being the hardestthing.
You know, I don't really have agood definition for 10, but one
through ten.
How how difficult was youractual divorce process?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Is 2713 an option?
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
It was brutal.
Okay.
It was brutal.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
If you feel comfortable sharing, what made
it brutal?
So a couple of things.
One was he did not want thedivorce, and he didn't believe
that I would ever reach thatlimit and maybe had dismissed
it, which was another sort ofironically validating point for
me.
Because I said, I've beentelling you I was gonna get here
(22:41):
for years, and I know myself.
I am here.
That was hard because I stillhad a lot of care for this
person.
I didn't want to hurt him.
And it was I w I had a very hardtime believing that after
everything we've been throughand all of the therapy and all
of the arguing and the kind oflife that we had ended up in,
(23:04):
that he would not also say,Yeah, you're right, it's not
working.
So that was really hard.
Obviously it was hard for him,but it was very hard for me to
see that he really did not thinkthat that end was ever gonna
come.
I realized he was not going toever call it, which I think
(23:25):
happens, but then it became verybitter and contentious.
I had really hoped that we couldjust say, look, let's go in
these directions.
He got to this place where hethought, well, I deserve to be
live in the life I've gottenaccustomed to.
He actually tried to really comeafter me financially, etc.
(23:50):
Then the lawyers got involved,which typically lawyers get
involved, but it was a verybitter argumentative.
I mean, we had to havemediation, we had to have
arbitration.
It was really, really ugly.
And it lasted a long time.
You know, he I think wasclutching on, and I just wanted
(24:12):
it to end so that I could moveon, he could move on, and we
could go into our but againwe're very different people and
approach things verydifferently.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
You wanted it to end.
How did you kind of maintainyour ground or position?
Because when I talk to otherpeople, sometimes the advice is
just get it over as fast as youcan, do whatever you need to do,
get to that next chapter, get tothe other side.
And when I got that advice,okay, I I see there being value
in it, but I also don't want tosacrifice my position just to
(24:43):
get it over with.
So, how did you balance?
That's an excellent question.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
That's a really good question.
I think when you have a kid, itadds a whole different level of
complexity.
So for me, there were two thingsthat grounded me.
One was what did I have to do toget my kid through this hole?
And obviously, no matter what Ido, it's gonna impact him.
But what do I need to do toensure that my son is going to
(25:12):
be okay?
That was very much of the thegrounding for me and the
guidepost because I really dobelieve that even if you have
kids, it is so horrible for kidsto be surrounded by an
unhealthy, toxic relationship.
And even my son's therapist, whowho I had found a couple of
years earlier, had said, this isreally impacting him.
(25:36):
Um, the the the the state of themarriage, not the divorce.
That really got me through itand sort of had me focused on
pushing through.
And the other piece was, andthis is a a weird thing, and a
lot of people sort of recoilfrom saying this, but it's the
truth.
Once I knew that there was gonnabe an end to what I had been
(25:58):
struggling with for so long andcould not fix on my own, and I
knew was not gonna get fixed, ashard as it was, and it was
brutal in every way, there was alot of other stuff going on in
my life at the same time thatwas equally hard.
I was so aware that thesuffering was gonna be over that
(26:20):
that also got me through.
So it was a combination ofreally, first and foremost, my
kid, and then second, knowingthat that suffering, angst, pain
was gonna come to an end.
Those were the two sort ofrudders I guess kept me moving
forward.
(26:40):
Does that answer the question?
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Absolutely, yeah.
Those were the tools, if youwill, the guideposts that got
you through it.
You had mentioned early on thatit became clear your values were
different.
I think divorce, it does a lotof things, but I think one thing
it really does is likecrystallize one's values.
So, what values have now becomealmost non-negotiables for you?
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah, which is so, and you're right, it does, you
know, it puts them into laserfocus because you're like, oh my
god, these things are sodifferent, and then it helps you
realize like these are the theabsolutes.
So, values for me, it's verymuch around loyalty and honesty
to family, and I don't mean thatin just the oh, you see each
(27:28):
other once a week and ha ha.
It's really knowing that you'regoing to protect each other and
you're going to support eachother.
And I don't think we weinterpret that in the same way.
He had had a very goodrelationship with my parents and
my sister.
He used to say, I fell in lovewith Tanya's family first before
(27:49):
I fell in love with Tanya.
That was very important to me.
But for some reason, after wemoved back from living in
France, he became very resentfulof my family, and that led to a
lot of, frankly, just reallypainful behavior, mocking,
public mocking, which I think isjust so disloyal because you can
(28:13):
give your family grief to eachother, but you you never take
that outside, right?
Just a lot of dismissivebehavior, what had been a very
close relationship between himand my sister really started
suffering and going in a in avery painful direction for her,
and she struggled with that,which was odd for me and awkward
(28:36):
and really uncomfortable for mebecause I was like, Yeah, I see
what you're talking about, buthe's my husband.
So that's tough.
It is so I think that value wasone, and it everything really
centers around that.
I think in my mind, when youmake a commitment and uh a
commitment to marry someone andbe with them, part of what you
(28:57):
are bringing to this is acommitment to doing and
supporting the things that areimportant to them as well.
And that did not exist.
So, for example, I'll just sayintimacy, our social life, you
know, he's very sort of insularand isolated, whereas I love
being around people, havingpeople over for dinner, all that
(29:20):
stuff.
It's a good question becauseit's helping me even now
crystallize it that the way Iinterpret loyalty and honesty
and commitment was just, Ithink, very different from his.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yeah, because we can use the same words, but they
might not mean the same thing todifferent people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
100%.
I think that was also a big partof it as well.
I think I just got much earlierto the point where I was like,
we're not, we're not what theother one needs.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
So if you could go back, or not go back, but you
know, you've got new Tanya whohas come through it.
She's more resilient, clearer onher values, happier.
What would she say to the Tanyawho was in the lowest of lows?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
I hope this answers your question.
One of the hardest things aboutdivorce, especially if you have
a kid, is that you realize thatthere's this thing that didn't
work, but in some ways it didwork because I have my son.
And so my marriage, painful asit was, had to happen because my
son had to happen.
(30:32):
The the only one thing I wouldsay, but even this, I I sort of
am gonna challenge myself on.
I'm I'm very hard on myself.
And so the one thing that I haveconsistently said was, you
should have left earlier.
How did you allow?
You know, there's a lot ofhumiliation in admitting that
you let someone treat you in away that you should not have let
(30:54):
them treat you.
For me, it was very humiliating,it's embarrassing, it makes me
angry with myself because I'mlike, you're smart enough and
strong enough and self-awareenough to know that that is not
good behavior.
But at the same time, you cannotprecipitate a divorce.
Like you have to do things whenyou're ready to do them,
(31:15):
especially something likedivorce.
I mean, I remember crying to mymy sister, who was my lifeline
in every way, um, just a fewyears into the marriage, and she
would say, What are you gonnado?
And I would say, I just don'tknow.
Like, I'm not ready.
And I wasn't.
So while the emotional side ofme says, You should have left
(31:38):
that first thing that was reallymessed up, you should have left
then.
Things happen, you know, youhave to you have to go through
the process, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Yeah, and you're a different person today than you
were.
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
I am in all of the best ways, right?
I am calmer, I'm happier, I dohave a partner who is absolutely
unbelievable.
He's an amazing father, he's anamazing friend.
He's just he's a partner in theway that I need a partner, and
I'm a partner to him in the wayhe needs a partner.
So you do come through it.
(32:14):
You do.
Everyone does.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
In our last closing question, and it's kind of odd,
but um gifts or opportunitiesdid your divorce bring you?
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Another great question.
My father, when I was in thethick of it, said to me, Tanya,
this is an opportunity for youto completely reinvent yourself
in every way if you want.
I do think that's a gift thatcomes from divorce.
You really can say, okay, thisreally is a new life in every
(32:50):
way.
And I can make it go however Iwant to make it go.
Realizing that and embracingthat is scary, but I'm a lot
older than you.
So when you get to, I guess Idivorced at 47, sort of
reinventing yourself andstarting from a blank slate at
47 is a lot scarier than it isat you know, 30, but but it's a
(33:12):
gift.
I'm 39, by the way.
So it's still a gift.
I'm still a lot younger.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
No, someone else said to me, You have a second
chance at life.
You do.
That didn't even enter my brainuntil they said that to me, and
I was like, oh my gosh, I dohave a second chance.
Yeah.
You do.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
You have a second chance at everything.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Well, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you.
This is gonna be one of myfavorite episodes.
I just know it.
I feel it in my gut.
So thank you.
Well, it's super fun.
I hope it helps people.
Yeah, me too.
That's the intent.
I think there's two things.
People will either realize I'mnot alone in this or a level of
gratitude that maybe the storythey hear is, you know, on that
(33:57):
scale from one to ten.
Maybe that story is a nine or aten, and they realize, hey, my
situation is maybe a five or asix compared to this, and maybe
there's a sense of gratitudewith it.
Yeah.
But well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
(34:19):
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
(34:43):
resilience.
Welcome to Bitter or Better, Real Stories of Divorce
and Resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there, interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
I'm really excited to beinterviewing you and talking
(01:04):
with you.
It's conversation.
It's not an interrogation, it'sa conversation.
I don't know much about yourstory, but I know that we
connected on it when we hadlunch at Alans months ago at
this point.
But if you wouldn't mindintroducing yourself and just a
quick background bio.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Yeah, so it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
For anyone who's watching, TanyaGarcia, I have been living in
Atlanta for about 30 yearsalmost.
I have been, I think importantlyfor this podcast, divorced for
five years now.
I had been married for 16.
(01:45):
I'm trying to do some math.
Yeah, so so technically divorcedfor four called the end of the
marriage a little bit over fiveyears.
I have one son here in Atlantawho is getting ready to go to
college, which is mind-blowing.
But obviously the most importantpart of my story.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Well, thank you for for one for just being here.
And let me ask.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
First of all, I don't think divorce is ever
really in your heart and in yourbeing, at least for me, entirely
behind me.
I think a lot of people I'vespoken to feel similarly.
You move past it, but hopefullyyou're taking learnings from it
and you're letting it inform inin helpful ways your future.
(02:42):
So I think for me that's a veryimportant thing.
But the question about why Iagreed to come and talk about
this very vulnerable, painfulpart of your life from of my
life, it's a really goodquestion.
And when you first initiallytold me about the podcast, I was
like, sure, it's great.
I love talking to Abby, it'sfantastic.
(03:04):
But really, when I delved intowhy I did agree to it, I think
it comes back to the first part,which is you're never really
entirely past it.
No matter how you feel, nomatter what happened, it's such
an impactful and traumaticthing, no matter what the
circumstances are, that I thinkit's helpful for me to process
(03:29):
it and perhaps have aconversation that I haven't had
before about it to help informmy future path.
So that's part of it, and Ithink the other part of it is no
one plans on getting divorced.
And it is incredibly painfuleven in the best of
circumstances.
So if what I have experiencedand learned as a result can help
(03:52):
anybody else, or even just makeanyone else feel like they're
not alone in what they're goingthrough, I'm all for it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah.
I know when I was in the muck ofit, being able to talk with
friends, even new friends, likewe didn't even know each other
that well.
But uh just having someone elsewho was on the other side of it
to say it's gonna be okay isextremely helpful.
So thank you again for not fornot backing out.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
No, of course.
No, I I'm I'm happy, happy totalk about it at at any time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
So let's maybe start from the beginning.
How did you meet?
What attracted you to eachother?
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
So my ex it's it's a bit of an unusual situation, but
my ex-husband um was in a PhDprogram at Georgia Tech, and so
was my sister.
My mother also worked at GeorgiaTech, big Georgia Tech family,
and my mother was very activewith helping students find
scholarships and jobopportunities and internships
(04:52):
and all of that.
I don't remember exactly how shemet my ex-husband, but she did
meet him and helped him get ascholarship for a summer
program, and then she introducedhim and my sister because they
were both at tech studying, andthey became quite good friends.
I was already working, I was inthe thick of the corporate world
(05:14):
working like 90 hours a week.
So I knew him via my sister andinteracted with him at times.
My parents are always hostingpeople for dinner, so he was
there from time to time, and sothat's how we met.
He and my sister became goodfriends, they did a lot of stuff
together, and and we hung out afew times as a result of that.
(05:35):
He's very smart, he's veryclever, he was just very
refreshing to me because as muchas I've been in the corporate
world my whole life, I like tohave fun, I like to have clever
conversations, as do mostpeople, I think, but we just had
that.
And I think there was a certainelement of comfort and safety
(05:55):
with the fact that he was afriend of my sister's and I had
had some not greatrelationships, as is the case
for most of us previously.
So there was a certain elementof just comfort that was very
natural.
So that's how we met.
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
It just sort of happened one night with a little
too much alcohol, and I'm gonnabe curious how many stories have
alcohol in them?
Yeah.
So when I interviewed stories, alot of the stories.
The great liquid courage.
Correct, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
The great, yes.
So it just kind of happened, andI was at a point in my life
where I I had always wanted toget married and have a big
family and children, and just dothat.
That was very much part of myDNA.
I was 31, all of my friends weremarried and we're having babies
(06:49):
and all of this stuff, and hewas very expressive about his
feelings for me.
I I felt very comfortable withhim, we had a great time, so it
was just kind of normal andeasy, I would say.
And I'll just, you know, goahead and say this is probably a
precursor to some otherquestions, but we started it
(07:11):
wasn't even really dating.
It was just sort of we weretogether.
He was finishing up his PhD, hehad an opportunity to move to
France for his postdoctorate.
We started dating in March.
We knew pretty quickly he wasgonna be moving to France, and
he asked me if I would go, and Isaid, I'm not going without,
(07:32):
like, I'm not leaving everythingI've built unless we're married.
And so we got engaged in August,just five months after we
started dating.
Oh and then we married inDecember.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (07:44):
Yeah, so we got engaged in August, he was in
France, I was here, so we wereseparated, and then we got
married in December.
Okay, and then I moved to Franceand we were there for for two
years.
So it was a very, very, veryquick courtship, yes, I guess.
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Yes.
That there wasn't even reallycourtship, it was just we're
together.
Yeah.
So it sounds like he won somepoints because he was
comfortable, easy, clever,credible.
Yes, absolutely.
So describe the family dynamic,yeah, the family and marriage
dynamic.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
We spent the first two years of our married life in
in France, away from all family,all friends, everything, in a
very in sort of concentratedtime together where it was just
us.
And there were there were crackspretty early on, which I know is
(08:40):
the case for some people, notthe case for everyone, but I
what I expected to be this sortof romantic, oh now we're in
Paris together, and I've lefteverything for you, and here I
am, and didn't really happen.
I think in retrospect, I know weare so different.
What is important, deeplyimportant to each of us within a
(09:01):
relationship, is very different.
And that was apparent to mevery, very quickly.
And I remember having some ofthose initial misgivings that I
did not know how to process.
But I would even send my mom andmy sister these messages saying,
I think I made a mistake, I Idon't, this is does not feel
(09:22):
right.
But being very stubborn as I amabout the fact that this was
going to work, it had to work.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
There was a veil of you had given up so much
everything, your entire life,yes, pretty much, yes, to make
this move and transition.
Yeah.
So it had to be.
This is the only plan.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
No.
Of course, now I know likethere's always a way you figure
out the plan B, but at the timeit was just no.
Like I there was I could notwrap my head around it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
So take us through what happened as the idea of
divorce maybe started to youknow, maybe it wasn't like
blinding headlights from asemi-truck.
Maybe it was a little moresubtle, but but take us through
that process of where thatrealization came.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Yeah, there were absolutely times in those first
couple of years where I was sortof smacked with the reality that
this was not what I expected.
But I again I I I could not, asyou said, wrap my head around
the plan B.
And so we moved back to the US,we moved back to Atlanta where
(10:39):
my family is.
So that was in 2005, and thenthere were more and more sort of
cuts, right?
I I refer to them as cutsbecause you know the average
death by a thousand cuts reallyapplies, and it's easy to just
dismiss one or another, but overtime that cumulative effect is
pretty significant.
(10:59):
So we moved back.
I at the time was 34.
I really, as I mentioned,desperately wanted kids.
That became a point ofcontention for us, but I did end
up getting pregnant, and I'llsay this: we ended up in uh
therapy almost as soon as we gotback, which was scary because my
(11:21):
parents had been togetherforever, his parents had been
together forever, and in mymind, it was we're a union if we
already need therapy.
So that's why it was scary.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
It's like, shouldn't we still be in the honeymoon for
that?
Correct, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
Now, I'll also say I think it's very healthy if
you're having if you'restruggling with things to go to
therapy and and try to fix them.
So then a year later, I gotpregnant, and it was a very
scary, anxious, again, one ofthose this is not going the way
I expected it to go.
I was scared because it's ascary big thing.
(11:58):
He was angry and scared in a waythat I didn't expect.
That was something we had towork past, and we did, and then
we had our son, and that was awhole other stress.
He was born early.
There was a lot, there's atremendous amount of stress that
came into our marriageconsistently.
What became clear was that theways we handled stress were so
(12:20):
different from each other, andthe ways we dealt with sort of
the everyday stresses of beingan adult were so different.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Can you give us an example of how you guys were
different in terms of stressmanagement?
SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Yeah.
So I am, as I mentioned, verystubborn, and I'm sort of a, and
I don't say this as a as a goodthing.
I am sometimes it's good, but Iam very much a you just gotta
push through.
Like you you gotta, you gottakeep going, you don't get
paralyzed by the fear, you justkeep moving and you'll figure it
out, and this is just the way itis.
(12:57):
He does not operate that way.
All of the stressors that cameat us individually and as a
couple, he reacted to it in avery different way.
He became very focused on hiswork, his career, what he
needed, and our son had beenborn premature, he was in NICU
(13:18):
for a week, it was a verystressful, he wasn't eating, he
had to take appetite stimulant.
It was very just yeah, he wasfour pounds.
You know, it was a verystressful, intense entry into
parenthood.
And my ex-husband really wentinto that like hyper focus.
I'm gonna control what I cancontrol.
(13:38):
And in many ways, I was in thisthere is no control.
Like I am up all night, I'mtrying to feed this kid, I'm
trying to make sure my career, Iwas the breadwinner, my career
stays on track, just verydifferent approaches.
His family is very differentthan mine, so that added some
stressors.
(13:59):
There were very few commonthreads, and it didn't feel very
much at that early, reallysignificant test that we had a
common thread, uh, and and itwas like, okay, we're in this a
hundred percent together.
So that was the first big one,and we worked past that.
(14:20):
We were in therapy for the bulkof our marriage, but over time,
what really startedcrystallizing in my mind were
was there's some really keybehavioral things that that are
painful for me that that don'twork for me, and I don't think
they work for our family.
And we did go through a lot oftherapy, but the behaviors
(14:40):
weren't changing, and so I thinkprobably at about the 12-year
mark, we really did come to aperiod where it was like this is
imploding.
It was a very difficult time forboth of us, but we went back
into therapy, we had taken ahiatus.
I'm trying to remember exactlythe the sequence and condense it
(15:02):
all, but we kept at the therapy,but again, that behavior wasn't
changing, and then eventually Igot to the point where I
thought, you know what, I needto go to therapy on my own
because the things that botheredme from the very beginning are
still bothering me, therefore, Idon't have a whole lot of faith
that they're gonna change, andso I have to figure out how I'm
(15:25):
going to deal with all of this.
I I think I knew then thatdivorce was probably inevitable.
I say this to a lot of people,but many ways I grieved the end
of my marriage while we werestill technically married.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
So about 12 years in is when yourealize this is maybe heading
towards divorce.
Yeah.
Talk to us about how it came up.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
That's an interesting question because,
well, it it came up so often.
You know, we talked about it intherapy, but then sort of again
at that like 12-year mark, Ithink we both sort of started
hinting at it.
Like there were times where heand even earlier had said, I'm
(16:10):
just gonna move out.
And I was like, uh, okay, that'sthat's a final act.
I think we both realized thatthere were some fundamental
flaws in the relationship and inthe union, and it came up, and
then we just both pushed throughbecause I think we were both
scared.
And we had a kid.
We had a family, even if itwasn't the family that I wanted,
(16:34):
it was a family, and it was veryit was the most important thing
to me.
We kind of tiptoed around it,and then I got to a point at
again, I'm using it just interms of like years, I don't
want to give exact years, but wehad been married for 15 years.
Um, we needed to move and we'retrying to figure out where, and
it was so problematic, and itwas so much tension and
(16:56):
conflict.
Everything was a conflict.
At one point, he said, I don'twant to keep looking for a house
because I feel like it's goingto be the end of us.
And in my mind, it was if that'sgonna be the end of us, then the
end is here, right?
Because that should not break amarriage, a a good marriage.
(17:20):
And then a few months later,after we had bought the new
house, I hit an absolute, Icannot do this anymore.
I at the worst possible time.
We were in the middle ofrenovating a brand new house, we
were living in another housejust in the interim.
Our son had just started a newschool, and interestingly, I
used to always say to him, I'mgonna hit a limit.
(17:42):
I'm going to hit a point of noreturn where I'm not gonna be
able to salvage this.
I'm I'm just it's gonna be toomuch.
And I hit that point.
So then I I basically said, I II just I can't do this anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
And it made it finite this time because you
were at that limit.
I was.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
I was absolutely at that limit.
It was deeply impacting my son,the constant conflict.
I was exhausted.
I'm a pretty high energy, prettyhigh threshold person, but I
just was tired of the constantbickering and the what felt like
a competition of wills all thetime.
I just I I did.
I hit a I had an absolute pointthat I could not come back from.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
So you hit that point, yeah, and then you have
to gear up for divorce.
Yeah.
What did you need to get inorder or learn or do in order to
start the divorce process?
SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
So I had started individual therapy about a year
prior.
One of the things I reallyneeded was the validation that I
had tried everything I possiblycould try.
Yes.
And that I wasn't just saying,oh, we've hit a bump in the
road, I'm out of the car.
That was very, very important tome.
(19:00):
So I needed that just from mytherapist and objective third
party.
But the other thing I reallyneeded from the people who knew
me came when I started, frankly,sharing some of the stuff that
had been going on in themarriage.
The people who really saw itmost were my sister, who I'm
very close to and who obviouslyknew him longer than I had, and
(19:22):
my parents.
I first started with my sister,and when she said, Yeah, we've
been seeing this, that wasanother thing that I needed.
And when I started talking to myclosest friends, because I'm
pretty siff upper lip, keepgoing, but when I started
talking about it with my closestfriends, they were all very much
(19:44):
in the Yeah, Tanya, like duh.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
They could they could all see something that you
couldn't see.
Yeah, absolutely.
And what did it feel like to getthat validation?
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
It was it was very humbling in a lot of ways
because I was like, oh mygoodness, these people stuck by
me in all of this discomfortthat they sat in also that I
didn't even realize they weresitting in.
Um, and so in that way it wasvery humbling.
I felt extremely grateful tohave the people who were willing
to say, yes, this is not okay.
(20:18):
And do what you gotta do.
You're gonna get through it.
You're strong, you're gonna getthrough it.
It was very, very, veryimportant.
And then there were people who Ididn't even know that well who
knew what I was going throughbecause when you do go through
divorce, it affects every partof your life who may not have
even known my husband.
And and they basically said,Look, you're tough, you're
(20:39):
strong, you're smart, the onlyway out is through.
You just keep going.
That was very sort ofstrengthening for me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Like, yeah, I do push through.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Yes, okay.
I'm not making a rash decision,I'm not making an emotional
decision, which is funnyconsidering that I even thought
that considering the fact thatwe had spent the bulk of our
marriage in therapy.
But yes, I needed that sort of,yeah, okay, it's okay to to call
it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
That validation of I have tried everything resonates
so much with me, and I hope withother listeners.
I remember I would call mycousin probably sometimes three
times a day.
I mean, she was my lifelinethrough this.
And I remember I needed to havea conversation, and she said,
(21:25):
Abby, don't you just want tomake sure that you've tried
everything?
And I want to be able to say,Yes, I've tried everything.
So that just resonates so much.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
It does.
I think for most people, it'sthe loss of a dream, it's the
loss of the future that youplanned.
It's so shattering in every way.
And I think it is important forpeople to hear, yes, you've
tried everything.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So on a scale from maybe one to ten, one being easy
peasy, ten being the hardestthing.
You know, I don't really have agood definition for 10, but one
through ten.
How how difficult was youractual divorce process?
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Is 2713 an option?
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
It was brutal.
Okay.
It was brutal.
SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
If you feel comfortable sharing, what made
it brutal?
So a couple of things.
One was he did not want thedivorce, and he didn't believe
that I would ever reach thatlimit and maybe had dismissed
it, which was another sort ofironically validating point for
me.
Because I said, I've beentelling you I was gonna get here
(22:41):
for years, and I know myself.
I am here.
That was hard because I stillhad a lot of care for this
person.
I didn't want to hurt him.
And it was I w I had a very hardtime believing that after
everything we've been throughand all of the therapy and all
of the arguing and the kind oflife that we had ended up in,
(23:04):
that he would not also say,Yeah, you're right, it's not
working.
So that was really hard.
Obviously it was hard for him,but it was very hard for me to
see that he really did not thinkthat that end was ever gonna
come.
I realized he was not going toever call it, which I think
(23:25):
happens, but then it became verybitter and contentious.
I had really hoped that we couldjust say, look, let's go in
these directions.
He got to this place where hethought, well, I deserve to be
live in the life I've gottenaccustomed to.
He actually tried to really comeafter me financially, etc.
(23:50):
Then the lawyers got involved,which typically lawyers get
involved, but it was a verybitter argumentative.
I mean, we had to havemediation, we had to have
arbitration.
It was really, really ugly.
And it lasted a long time.
You know, he I think wasclutching on, and I just wanted
(24:12):
it to end so that I could moveon, he could move on, and we
could go into our but againwe're very different people and
approach things verydifferently.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
You wanted it to end.
How did you kind of maintainyour ground or position?
Because when I talk to otherpeople, sometimes the advice is
just get it over as fast as youcan, do whatever you need to do,
get to that next chapter, get tothe other side.
And when I got that advice,okay, I I see there being value
in it, but I also don't want tosacrifice my position just to
(24:43):
get it over with.
So, how did you balance?
That's an excellent question.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
That's a really good question.
I think when you have a kid, itadds a whole different level of
complexity.
So for me, there were two thingsthat grounded me.
One was what did I have to do toget my kid through this hole?
And obviously, no matter what Ido, it's gonna impact him.
But what do I need to do toensure that my son is going to
(25:12):
be okay?
That was very much of the thegrounding for me and the
guidepost because I really dobelieve that even if you have
kids, it is so horrible for kidsto be surrounded by an
unhealthy, toxic relationship.
And even my son's therapist, whowho I had found a couple of
years earlier, had said, this isreally impacting him.
(25:36):
Um, the the the the state of themarriage, not the divorce.
That really got me through itand sort of had me focused on
pushing through.
And the other piece was, andthis is a a weird thing, and a
lot of people sort of recoilfrom saying this, but it's the
truth.
Once I knew that there was gonnabe an end to what I had been
(25:58):
struggling with for so long andcould not fix on my own, and I
knew was not gonna get fixed, ashard as it was, and it was
brutal in every way, there was alot of other stuff going on in
my life at the same time thatwas equally hard.
I was so aware that thesuffering was gonna be over that
(26:20):
that also got me through.
So it was a combination ofreally, first and foremost, my
kid, and then second, knowingthat that suffering, angst, pain
was gonna come to an end.
Those were the two sort ofrudders I guess kept me moving
forward.
(26:40):
Does that answer the question?
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Absolutely, yeah.
Those were the tools, if youwill, the guideposts that got
you through it.
You had mentioned early on thatit became clear your values were
different.
I think divorce, it does a lotof things, but I think one thing
it really does is likecrystallize one's values.
So, what values have now becomealmost non-negotiables for you?
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah, which is so, and you're right, it does, you
know, it puts them into laserfocus because you're like, oh my
god, these things are sodifferent, and then it helps you
realize like these are the theabsolutes.
So, values for me, it's verymuch around loyalty and honesty
to family, and I don't mean thatin just the oh, you see each
(27:28):
other once a week and ha ha.
It's really knowing that you'regoing to protect each other and
you're going to support eachother.
And I don't think we weinterpret that in the same way.
He had had a very goodrelationship with my parents and
my sister.
He used to say, I fell in lovewith Tanya's family first before
(27:49):
I fell in love with Tanya.
That was very important to me.
But for some reason, after wemoved back from living in
France, he became very resentfulof my family, and that led to a
lot of, frankly, just reallypainful behavior, mocking,
public mocking, which I think isjust so disloyal because you can
(28:13):
give your family grief to eachother, but you you never take
that outside, right?
Just a lot of dismissivebehavior, what had been a very
close relationship between himand my sister really started
suffering and going in a in avery painful direction for her,
and she struggled with that,which was odd for me and awkward
(28:36):
and really uncomfortable for mebecause I was like, Yeah, I see
what you're talking about, buthe's my husband.
So that's tough.
It is so I think that value wasone, and it everything really
centers around that.
I think in my mind, when youmake a commitment and uh a
commitment to marry someone andbe with them, part of what you
(28:57):
are bringing to this is acommitment to doing and
supporting the things that areimportant to them as well.
And that did not exist.
So, for example, I'll just sayintimacy, our social life, you
know, he's very sort of insularand isolated, whereas I love
being around people, havingpeople over for dinner, all that
(29:20):
stuff.
It's a good question becauseit's helping me even now
crystallize it that the way Iinterpret loyalty and honesty
and commitment was just, Ithink, very different from his.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yeah, because we can use the same words, but they
might not mean the same thing todifferent people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
100%.
I think that was also a big partof it as well.
I think I just got much earlierto the point where I was like,
we're not, we're not what theother one needs.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
So if you could go back, or not go back, but you
know, you've got new Tanya whohas come through it.
She's more resilient, clearer onher values, happier.
What would she say to the Tanyawho was in the lowest of lows?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
I hope this answers your question.
One of the hardest things aboutdivorce, especially if you have
a kid, is that you realize thatthere's this thing that didn't
work, but in some ways it didwork because I have my son.
And so my marriage, painful asit was, had to happen because my
son had to happen.
(30:32):
The the only one thing I wouldsay, but even this, I I sort of
am gonna challenge myself on.
I'm I'm very hard on myself.
And so the one thing that I haveconsistently said was, you
should have left earlier.
How did you allow?
You know, there's a lot ofhumiliation in admitting that
you let someone treat you in away that you should not have let
(30:54):
them treat you.
For me, it was very humiliating,it's embarrassing, it makes me
angry with myself because I'mlike, you're smart enough and
strong enough and self-awareenough to know that that is not
good behavior.
But at the same time, you cannotprecipitate a divorce.
Like you have to do things whenyou're ready to do them,
(31:15):
especially something likedivorce.
I mean, I remember crying to mymy sister, who was my lifeline
in every way, um, just a fewyears into the marriage, and she
would say, What are you gonnado?
And I would say, I just don'tknow.
Like, I'm not ready.
And I wasn't.
So while the emotional side ofme says, You should have left
(31:38):
that first thing that was reallymessed up, you should have left
then.
Things happen, you know, youhave to you have to go through
the process, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Yeah, and you're a different person today than you
were.
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
I am in all of the best ways, right?
I am calmer, I'm happier, I dohave a partner who is absolutely
unbelievable.
He's an amazing father, he's anamazing friend.
He's just he's a partner in theway that I need a partner, and
I'm a partner to him in the wayhe needs a partner.
So you do come through it.
(32:14):
You do.
Everyone does.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
In our last closing question, and it's kind of odd,
but um gifts or opportunitiesdid your divorce bring you?
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Another great question.
My father, when I was in thethick of it, said to me, Tanya,
this is an opportunity for youto completely reinvent yourself
in every way if you want.
I do think that's a gift thatcomes from divorce.
You really can say, okay, thisreally is a new life in every
(32:50):
way.
And I can make it go however Iwant to make it go.
Realizing that and embracingthat is scary, but I'm a lot
older than you.
So when you get to, I guess Idivorced at 47, sort of
reinventing yourself andstarting from a blank slate at
47 is a lot scarier than it isat you know, 30, but but it's a
(33:12):
gift.
I'm 39, by the way.
So it's still a gift.
I'm still a lot younger.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
No, someone else said to me, You have a second
chance at life.
You do.
That didn't even enter my brainuntil they said that to me, and
I was like, oh my gosh, I dohave a second chance.
Yeah.
You do.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
You have a second chance at everything.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Well, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you.
This is gonna be one of myfavorite episodes.
I just know it.
I feel it in my gut.
So thank you.
Well, it's super fun.
I hope it helps people.
Yeah, me too.
That's the intent.
I think there's two things.
People will either realize I'mnot alone in this or a level of
gratitude that maybe the storythey hear is, you know, on that
(33:57):
scale from one to ten.
Maybe that story is a nine or aten, and they realize, hey, my
situation is maybe a five or asix compared to this, and maybe
there's a sense of gratitudewith it.
Yeah.
But well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Bitteror Better, where we turn
heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
(34:19):
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
(34:43):
resilience.
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