April 16, 2026 • 52 mins
A 24-year marriage can end in a single sentence. Nicole hears it in marriage counseling when her husband stands up, walks out, and comes back to admit he’s been having an affair. What follows isn’t a neat breakup story; it’s the messy middle: numb shock, control as a coping mechanism, protecting the kids from the blast radius, and figuring out how to survive when your support system is thin and your whole life just moved cities.
We talk through the long runway that leads to that moment: early red flags that get excused, the pressure of long distance years, substance abuse scares, grief that curdles into anger, and the feeling of walking on eggshells inside your own home. Nicole shares how tennis became a lifeline, giving her a place to breathe and a community that knew her as herself, not as part of a couple. We also get honest about emotional abuse, covert narcissism, and why trusting actions over words can save you years of confusion.
Then we get practical. Nicole’s best divorce advice is blunt: never give up control of your finances. She explains the power of knowing every account, password, and policy, plus why a separate “pin money” account can be true protection. She also breaks down what she wishes she’d done differently in mediation and a DIY divorce, especially getting promises in writing and thinking long term about child support, alimony, and the real cost of raising kids.
If you’re navigating divorce recovery, healing after infidelity, or rebuilding confidence after a high conflict relationship, this story is for you. Subscribe for more real divorce stories, share this with a friend who needs peace, and leave a review so more people can find us.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
Okay.
(01:02):
I'm so excited to be here in ournew podcast studio.
I feel like I should havebrought champagne for this for
that reason to celebrate, butthen also because we might want
to drink.
Because it's seven o'clock.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
I'm not going to lie.
I had a drink before I came.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Good for you.
Good for you.
I should have poured me somelimoncello while I was getting
ready and you know pregamed alittle bit.
But if you would just introduceyourself to our listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
My name is Nicole Ramsor, and I met our awesome
host, Abby, at tennis, and webonded over our divorces.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Yes.
The way we met was the same daythat I found out that we had
that similar story.
We were like warming up intennis, and there's two on one
side of the court, two on theother side of the court.
And one of the girls was like,Abby, how'd you like, why'd you
move to Atlanta?
And I was just like, oh, for myex-husband's job, and he had an
affair at work, and I got lefthere.
(02:03):
And you were like, Me too.
I was like, oh.
I need to hear your story.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
We definitely bonded over that very strange
coincidence.
Not a lot of people can say theymet that way.
unknown (02:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
That's what makes it so special.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Thank you for being here and for opening up on this
chapter of your life.
We can laugh about it now.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Because you're a few years out from it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yes.
So my divorce was final inDecember of 2020.
Not only did the whole worldshut down by the pandemic, but I
also got divorced and I had onlybeen in Atlanta for about a year
and a half.
It was a lot at once.
Yeah.
Also had shoulder surgery, lostmy grandmother.
Like 2020 was a horrible year,but the divorce ended in
(02:55):
December.
So it was great to have that asthe final chapter for 2020.
And then 2021 opened up lots offun things.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Oh, okay.
We'll talk about the fun things.
Let's maybe get through the hardthings first so that we can talk
about the fun things.
Yeah, that was a really toughyear, it sounds like on a number
of accounts.
A divorce is traumatizing in andof itself.
What made you agree to say yesto come on and share your story?
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
There's so much stigma around divorce.
There really shouldn't be,because I feel like people now
really maybe aren't meant forlong-term relationships.
And for a while I was reallynervous to tell my parents when
I was going through it, justbecause my ex had a great
relationship with my mom.
And it was a it was that shamething too.
And I was like, there's nothingto be ashamed of.
(03:44):
I didn't do anything wrong.
And it's life.
If I can make somebody else'sexperience or make somebody
else's feelings feel validated,then why the fuck not?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
We all want to feel validated in our stories.
And you've done that to one, atleast one.
And she's sitting here acrossfrom you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
I just feel we should all be strong.
And it's a scary thing.
You should never feel likeyou're doing it by yourself.
If anyone listening to this isquestioning whether they want to
get divorced, whether theyshould get divorced, or maybe
not even divorce, but just Ineed to get out of whatever
situation I'm in.
If they hear this and feel like,okay, this woman was married for
(04:24):
24 years and she did it, whycan't I do it?
That was my reason.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Take us back.
Let's rewind the clock and helpset the stage.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
We met when I was 20 years old.
I was a junior in college and hewas a first-year law student up
at Syracuse.
He was like larger than life,big man on campus.
We had mutual friends in common.
I just thought he was thisreally magnanimous magnanimous
personality and a lot of fun.
(04:55):
I actually was dating somebodyelse when we met.
We met six months before westarted dating through mutual
friend.
He'd been asking me out throughmy friend, and I didn't know
because I never, my roommate, Inever saw her.
So we ran into each other.
He's like, You're too good forme.
You can't go out with me.
And I was like, I don't knowwhat you're talking about.
And we realized that I wasn'tgetting his messages, and I
don't think he really believedme.
(05:16):
So we started dating, and thatwas it.
This guy, he was so into me.
He was so great.
We planned all these romanticdates in college.
Everyone's having fun.
And it's just a really good fit.
And then I go to Europe foralmost 10 months, my senior year
of college, and he came to visitme and he was writing me
(05:36):
letters.
I would get five letters a weekfrom this guy.
And I was like, oh my God,that's so romantic, right?
He's so great.
And then when I got back, Igraduated and he still had law
school and we had along-distance relationship.
I was living in New Jersey andthen I moved to DC.
And he was still in law school.
And then he graduated and he wasliving in Delaware, and I was in
(05:57):
DC.
So it was a couple hoursdistance.
But he finally was like, we needto be in the same place.
We've had this long-distancerelationship for three years.
We really need to be in the sameplace.
And I was like, I don't know.
I have this great job, right?
I was working for ATT and I wasin DC, and there was always
stuff to do, and there wasalways things going on, and it
was really just starting mycareer.
(06:18):
And he was like, we really needto be together.
He's like, I can't move to DCbecause he was clerking for his
job.
So I was like, okay.
And at the time, ATT had offereda buyout package and it was a
really great package.
I was 24.
They threw a ton of money at me.
And then I have this guy saying,Oh, if you move here, we're
going to get engaged.
And I was like, Oh, okay, thisis great.
(06:40):
This is everything that Ithought I wanted, right?
We had had a couple of issueswhen we were dating, but I
really chalked it up to longdistance.
We weren't in the same place.
We were on different pages orwhatever.
So I took a buyout package.
I moved to Wilmington, Delawarewhen I was 24 years old.
You can't see Abby's face rightnow, but it's like mortified.
(07:02):
And it was a great place to beif you were married with
children or middle-aged, which Iwas neither.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
And my mother-in-law was super clingy.
So we get engaged.
I lived there for a year, and Iwas like, this place is
horrible.
Nothing against Wilmington,Delaware for anybody listening.
It's a really pretty place, butit just wasn't where I wanted to
be.
I had a terrible job.
And I said, listen, we need tofigure our life out because I
don't see myself beingcomfortable staying here
(07:31):
forever.
Based on his job, we pickedBoston or San Francisco.
We ended up in Boston.
Things were good, but now I'mplanning a long-distance
wedding.
So we're getting married in NewJersey.
This is the first time when wemoved to Boston that we were
actually cohabitating.
He had never lived alone before,other than college, that doesn't
really count.
So there was a little bit of aadjustment.
(07:52):
And again, I chalked it up to ussort of figuring this stuff out.
I wasn't working when we movedto Boston.
So there was a little bit of afinancial pull because it wasn't
a cheap city.
We worked it out.
And hindsight, there was a lotof, there was a lot of red
flags.
And I again just ignored them.
I was super young and I didn'tknow myself.
(08:15):
I didn't know really him.
I only knew what he portrayed.
So we got married.
Fast forward to mid-2000s, I getpregnant.
I had gotten a really great job,similar to the job I had in DC,
but it was like super high.
There was a lot.
It was a lot of pressure.
When I got pregnant, I knew Ialways wanted to be a
stay-at-home mom.
And that was one of the thingsthat we both had agreed on
(08:38):
because both of our mothers werestay-at-home moms, and that was
very important to us.
We had very good alignment ofour family values.
So we left Boston and moved toNew Jersey.
And then things were coming up.
I found out that he had asubstance abuse problem, which I
knew a little bit of, but Ididn't know the full extent of
(08:59):
it until there was one night Ihad to take him to the ER and
found out that he almost OD'd oncocaine.
That was a shock to me.
I was like, what have I gotmyself into?
But at that point, I had twokids.
I had just gotten my real estatelicense because I wanted to
still keep active, even thoughthat wasn't my primary focus.
(09:19):
Fast forward to he got himselftogether.
I, in my mind, I'm like, okay,this is just marriage.
It's not all fun.
You have ups and downs and youwork through it.
We went to counseling.
We admittedly probably couldhave gone to more counseling,
but it just with the kids beinglittle and life, and he got this
(09:40):
great job that he was travelinga lot, that the counseling sort
of petered out and things gotbetter.
Looking back, he got better atmasking.
He was working for a Germancompany.
So for the next 15 years, he wasin Germany, not consecutively,
but for two and a half to threeweeks out of the month, at least
one or two days a week, he wouldgo to Germany.
(10:01):
I yeah, it was actually great.
unknown (10:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Because I had my life, we had the kids, and then
when he was home, he was fundad, he was fun husband.
We would go out and then I wouldjoke to people.
I'm like, and I was doing thefinances, I would joke.
I'm like, the money adds up, soI really don't care what he's
doing.
You know, he could have a wholenother family, but I'm like, the
money added up.
So he I really didn't thinkthat.
It could be a German family, butit could maybe she had the
money, but all I know is hispaycheck matched and everything
(10:28):
else.
In 2016, his mom passed away.
Like right before that happened,this company was saying that
they wanted him to be overseasmore.
And his mom always had healthissues, and he just didn't want
to.
And it really was hard.
I didn't want him to either atthat point.
So he ended up taking a buyoutpackage.
(10:49):
So he was home, and then his mompassed away.
That was probably the pivotalmoment when everything started
to go to hell.
He had midlife crisis, went outand bought this stupid,
ridiculous car, had beendrinking.
And I guess I forgot, somewherein there in our history, he he
got a DUI, so he'd gone torehab, and he'd he swore he
(11:12):
would never do coke again, butit was the drinking and pot
smoking or whatever.
And he was like, I don't have aproblem.
Got the DUI.
And when his mom passed away,that was really when he lost his
what I call her his anger.
We were also living togetheragain a hundred percent of the
time.
That was a lot because I had thelife.
(11:34):
I played tennis, even though Isold real estate, I really was a
housewife.
I volunteered and did a lot ofstuff at my kids' school, maybe
had a couple of real estatedeals a couple times a month.
I was having lunch, doing areally nice lady of leisure
life.
And he was now looking for me tobe his source of entertainment.
I was like, yeah, we could dostuff, but I got other stuff to
(11:57):
do, and I don't want to be yoursole sense of entertainment.
He got really upset.
Definitely there was acting out.
So then he gets a job and wemoved to Atlanta.
It was a little bit of a sourceof contention with the family
because my daughter was a juniorin high school and she didn't
really want to move.
So he was commuting for a year.
Again, that was great for me.
(12:18):
I'm like, oh, finally he's outof the house.
I got my life back.
I don't have to be on as a wife24-7.
So we moved to Atlanta in 2018.
My daughter goes to college.
My son's starting high school,new school.
I've given up yet another careerbecause I'd been established as
a real estate agent for 15, 16years.
(12:39):
And I'm moving to a place whereI have no support system.
I knew one person and I hadn'treally seen her since high
school.
We weren't really super close.
It was hard.
And then I was also startingmenopause, like I was in
perimenopause.
So there was like a whole it's aperfect shitstorm.
I was gonna say shit.
You couldn't have anything elseon that plate.
(12:59):
It was hard.
And then his dad passed awaythat December of 2018.
And then his grandmother.
So now he's lost his three, andI'm not making excuses by any
means because there's noexcuses, but he lost three very
important people to him, and hewent off the rails.
When we moved here, we would dosome stuff together, but we
(13:20):
didn't do a lot.
We didn't make friends togetheras a couple.
We would go out to dinner, butit was the two of us.
It was very, very much againseparate.
In order for me to findsomething of my own, I started
playing tennis and I just joinedtennis drills and would hang
out.
I wasn't working, so that wasalso stressful.
We hadn't sold our house in NewJersey, also stressful.
(13:41):
And then we did and was goingback and forth and looking for a
place here.
We ended up renting a house fora year.
I'm so thankful that we didthat.
Whatever reasoning sign that wasout there for us not to buy a
house down here, it was great.
Because shortly thereafter, hestarts saying that I'm not
happy, you're not there for me,I need more from you, and I
(14:06):
don't feel passion anymore.
And I was like, I'm strugglingtoo.
I'm like, I have all of thisother shit going on.
I'm like, I don't see anysupport from you either.
Then we decided to go intocounseling in 2019.
He needed grief counselingbecause he never really
processed his mother's death,let alone his father and his
grandmother.
And he was so adamant that hewas fine and it wasn't, but
(14:28):
literally, I would come home andjust the heaviness in the house
was suffocating.
I never knew who I was gonnadeal with.
I'd take my son to school andI'd see his car in the drive,
and he'd be like, oh God, Igotta keep driving.
Cause I don't want I don't wantto be with this guy.
I just don't want to be with himbecause I know he's gonna be
just this like heavy wetblanket.
Suffocating is the only word Icould think of, because it was
(14:49):
really a lot.
We go to counseling and we meetthis great counselor, and I was
like, I really think he needs toprocess some other stuff because
yeah, we have issues.
I'm not denying that at allbecause we haven't really lived
together that often for extendedperiods of time.
And now here we are in order torely on each other, and it's not
(15:10):
really great.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
So you're having to be like each other's everything
to each other.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
I I'm very independent and I don't like
that in general.
Like in any relationship thatI'd ever been in, I like my
independence.
I want to be able to go and dowhat I want to do or have a
little bit of flexibility whereI'm like, I don't have to check
in with somebody else.
The therapist was like, Yeah, Ican see why you would think that
he would need grief counseling.
And he was like, Oh, I don'tthink so.
(15:35):
And and she's what bothers youabout your wife?
And he's I just want somebodythat I I want to have fun, I
want to have somebody that I candate.
And because I'd been saying,let's block out Thursday
afternoon and Friday night orwhatever it was.
I'm like, we'll do stufftogether.
And he's like, Why does it haveto be an appointment?
I'm like, it doesn't have to bean appointment, but I'm like, I
got stuff to do.
Like, you're busy, I'm busy.
(15:56):
What is the problem with sayingFriday night date night or
Thursday night date night?
I'm like, everybody does it.
I'm like, why are you so opposedto it?
But he he was like, I want todate and I want to go have fun.
And the therapist looked at himand she's I know 15 guys that
would jump at the chance to dateyour wife.
They're like, You she'sintelligent, she's beautiful,
she's kind.
(16:16):
She pretty much wanted to say,What the fuck's your problem?
But she couldn't because it wasmarriage counseling.
At least that was myinterpretation of it.
I could be wrong.
So we ended up deciding to haveher be his personal counselor.
And then another woman in thepractice was going to be our
marriage counselor.
So we got him to agree to that.
(16:36):
We were going to do this wholesurvey about where we need to
work on our marriage.
So we did this whole survey, andI happened to be away the
weekend that we were doing it.
And so he's texting me and he'sstressing me out.
Did you do it?
And I was like, Yeah, I did it.
I'm like, it was stressful, butI did it.
And he's like, I don't know if Ican do it.
And I was like, Oh, what's theproblem?
Either we do it or we don't.
And I was still, I was likeapprehensive because I was like,
(16:57):
does this mean we're getting adivorce?
In my mind, I still hadn't cometo that decision because I
really thought that we were justin a low period, right?
They happened.
I get home on a Monday night,and Tuesday is our therapist
meeting.
So we had submitted everythingSunday night.
So she reviewed it, and Tuesdaywe're going to therapy.
So I go to therapy, we met eachother because he was coming from
(17:19):
work and he was like outside andhe was all sweaty.
And I was like, what's going on?
And I was going to, we had aplayoff tennis match after
therapy.
Like, never a good idea.
I was like, what's going on?
He's like, I don't know.
I'm just, I'm he's like, I'm allworked up.
He's like, I think I'm I don'tknow what's happening.
So we go sit in therapy, andliterally he's sweating bullets.
(17:40):
And I was like, oh my God, is heon something?
That was the first thing Ithought of.
I'm like, what is I'm like, thisis not gonna be good.
We're sitting there and she getsout our results, and she was
like talking about how this isthe foundation to a new
relationship and we're gonna berebuilding.
He gets up and leaves.
And I was like, Oh.
And she's like, What's going on?
I'm like, I have no idea.
(18:01):
So she's like, Should I go knockon the bathroom door?
Do you want to?
I'm like, I will.
So I'm like, Are you okay?
I'm like, oh, come back in.
So he comes back in and he's Ican't do this.
And I was like, What do you meanyou can't do this?
What today?
Again, I'm like, dumb me.
And I was like, What do you meanyou can't do this?
And he is, I haven't been honestwith you.
I've been having an affair.
(18:22):
And I was like, Oh, glad wewasted all this money on
marriage counseling.
We had always talked about whatour lines in the sand would be
like, even in the beginning ofour relationship.
I'm like, there's some stuffthat I just won't tolerate.
And that obviously was one ofthem.
Looking back on it now, I feellike that he wanted out and he
(18:45):
knew that would get me out.
That would be it, becauseotherwise I'd probably still be
in a loveless marriage trying tomake it work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Thinking this is just what marriage is.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Thank you.
That was a lot.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (18:59):
No, you set the stage in the context.
Things don't just happenovernight.
So you took us through that.
Really appreciate your honestyand transparency.
When that affair bomb wasdropped on you, can you take us
back to what you were feeling inthat moment?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
I literally went numb.
And I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
Just blindsided.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
Yeah.
Of all the things that I thoughtthat was never, I just never
thought that he would be thatdisrespectful to our life that
we had built together.
I was 20, he was 23.
That's a lot of things.
Yeah, you built we went througha lot of shit together.
Our families were very close.
(19:44):
I was very close to his parentsand his sister.
He's very close to my family.
I really, I went numb.
I was like, okay.
And I got up and I went to the Iwent to the bathroom and the
therapist knocked on the doorand she's like, Are you okay?
I'm like, I have to go to atennis match.
I don't know how I'm reallysupposed to like focus.
And she's like, This is whatyou're gonna do.
(20:04):
She's wash your hands, visualizeall of this getting washed off
and going down the sink andgoing down the drain, and you go
kick ass in your tennis match.
And I was like, Okay, I can dothat.
I didn't go back into the room.
He tried to talk to me on theway out, and I was like, I can't
talk to you right now.
So I did.
I went to my tennis match, and Ihave to say, tennis really saved
(20:24):
my life for many reasons.
But the women that I met throughtennis, they had no idea.
It wasn't like Team Nicole.
They didn't know us as a couple.
They only knew me.
It was nice to be able to dosomething where I didn't have to
worry about somebody was gonnaask a question like, oh, how's
blah, blah, blah, or how's this,or do you guys want to come for
(20:44):
this?
But there was none of that.
It was great to be able to goand just literally shut my mind
off and totally compartmentalizeand then not deal with it.
Later that night, when I gothome, my son was there, so I
made dinner.
I didn't want to talk to him,but I also didn't want him to
not be in the house, as weird asthat sounds, because I like I
needed to know that he wasn't,not that I cared that he was
(21:06):
have like I did care that he washaving an affair, but if I told
him to get out, I knew I wouldwonder where was he and what was
he doing.
That was me exercising controlover the situation, being like,
I don't want to talk to you, butyou have to stay in the house.
He was like, I can go staysomewhere.
I'm like, no, you can stay here.
Weirdly enough, too, we stayedin the same bed for three days.
(21:29):
And I just totally, I know,bizarre, right?
But again, it was like I neededto know where he was and what he
was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
Why was that important to you?
SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
I didn't want to have to wonder because I knew if
I couldn't see him, I didn'tknow what he was doing.
And this probably harkens backto the cocaine thing and the
DUI.
I just worried.
And honestly, there weresuicidal moments too with him.
So I knew that if I could seehim, I didn't have to worry
(21:59):
about.
That.
And I could just be mad at himand let him know that I was mad
at him by not talking to him andignoring him.
That went on for three daysbefore he finally said, I can't
do this anymore.
And I was like, okay.
We hadn't said anything to ourson.
And with my daughter being awayin college, we weren't the table
flipping sort of family.
(22:20):
We never really fought in frontof them.
There might have been tensemoments, but that it wasn't like
expressive.
So it was going to be a shock tothem.
And I didn't want to do that tomy daughter because she's super
sensitive.
I didn't want to FaceTime herand be like, hey, guess what?
We're getting a divorce becauseit would just come out of
nowhere.
And my son was 14 at the time.
(22:41):
Didn't really want to sayanything to him without telling
her, because then she'd be upsetthat she didn't know too.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis a horrible situation.
I was like, hey, I'll leaveafter he goes to bed and I'll
come back in the morning andI'll take him to school.
And I was like, okay.
So that went on for four months.
So this was October that thedivorce bomb was dropped.
(23:01):
So when my daughter came backfor Christmas break, we kept up
the charade for two months.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Trevor Burrus Where he would leave at night and then
come back in the morning.
So your son didn't know that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
No, because he was a teenage boy and completely
oblivious.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
No, you that's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
It was a lot.
And I would still make dinnerand then like we would still
have dinner or go out to dinner.
Oh, and I forgot to say ouranniversary was September 27th.
So this divorce bomb happenedlike the first week of October.
So one of the things duringmarriage counseling, she was
like, What are you guys doingfor your anniversary?
I'm like, I don't know.
I keep asking, and he didn'twant to do anything.
So she's like, You need to goout.
(23:38):
So we went out and had the worstfucking dinner for our
anniversary.
And we didn't say like literallythree words.
It was so bad.
I should have known, you know,that something was really wrong.
But again, yeah, you didn'tknow.
I didn't think that it was, youknow, broken that.
Irretrievably crushed.
Not just broken.
Crushed.
(23:58):
So that went on for two months.
And then my daughter came homefor Christmas break.
We told them both that we weregetting divorced and nothing
would change.
And he even admitted when wetold the kids that it was him.
He wanted, he wasn't happy.
He took the blame and said thathe was always going to take care
of us and it was always going tobe good and we're always still
(24:19):
going to be a family.
Now, what I didn't know then wasthat he had already had this
girlfriend and she had alreadymet my kids.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
Can I ask if he shared with the kids what was
the real story?
He did not.
SPEAKER_00 (24:38):
And we had talked about that, and I had said, it's
none of their business, and itdoesn't serve any purpose for
them because I was still tryingto protect them from the
situation.
I don't know if that was theright thing to do, but I said,
I'm never going to say anythingthat puts you in a bad light to
them.
I'm not going to talk down.
That's just not me.
You're their dad for life.
(24:59):
Just because we didn't work out.
Now I'm not an angel, and therewere been many a time where I've
had to bite my tongue and notsay what I'm like, really.
But I think at this point, mydaughter knows.
I'm sure my son does too, but hejust doesn't want to say
anything.
I'm not going to lie to themeither.
If they flat out ask me, I willsay what happened.
(25:19):
But if they're not asking, it'sreally not their business.
Again, I didn't want them tothink that their father was a
piece of shit bag.
I don't know if I did the rightthing by shielding them
throughout their life of thetrue man that he was.
But now they know, and it's notthrough anything that I've said
or done.
They now see that their dad is anarcissist.
(25:42):
I didn't know that word when Iwas 20.
I didn't know that word when Iwas 30.
I knew it when I was 40, but Ididn't know the full extent of
it until after the divorce bomband therapy.
I started going to therapy forme with her.
And yeah, he's got a lot ofnarcissistic tendencies.
(26:02):
So I started reading up on that.
I was like, oh, yes, he he did.
And my daughter's had a lot oftherapy for other reasons.
She sees it.
When I, as soon as I said to thekids, I'm like, your dad's a
narcissist, she's like, yeah,you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Aaron Ross Powell In that story, you honored a number
of values that was important toyou.
If you had to name a couple ofthose values that were important
for you to model with yourchildren, what would those
values have been?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
You make the best decisions you can at the time.
For me, it was important for mykids' relationship with their
dad to be intact.
And I didn't want it to be anugly back and forth.
I didn't want them to have tochoose because they were old.
They were 14 and 17 or 14 and18.
I wanted them to still be ableto have a good relationship with
(26:56):
their dad because we both hadgood relationships with our dads
and still do.
And family is very important.
I I don't come from a divorcedfamily.
He didn't come from a divorcedfamily.
Like I said, if it hadn't beenfor the affair, I would have
still been plugging along tryingto make it work and not really
being true to myself.
That I think I did a little bitof a disservice to my kids
(27:20):
because I masked a lot of stuff.
I internalized a lot of stuff,and I just tried to make
everything great.
It was hard for them to see thatwe were getting divorced because
they didn't see anything likethat.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
So they were, in effect, blindsided about it
also.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Yes, very much.
And that was hard.
That was really hard.
I thought my daughter would bemore upset.
It took her a little bit longerto process, and she was upset,
but my son was like visibly inthe moment upset and scared.
And I was like, wow, I didn'tsee that coming.
Yeah, they were blindsided.
Again, I don't know if that wasthe right thing to do, but that
(27:58):
was the way I I never saw myparents fight.
I modeled my relationship afterwhat I saw.
And I was like, oh, you take allyour fights behind closed doors,
you just put a good faceforward.
But I don't that's notrealistic.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
So part of this mission of the podcast is to ask
those that have been there,lived through that.
If you were going to give adviceto someone who was maybe also in
a similar situation, or evenmaybe advice that you could give
to yourself back in those days,what what would you say?
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
Everyone's situation is different and every man is
different.
I think when you're dealing witha narcissist, he said all the
right words.
All the right words, but hisactions never added up to what
he would say.
And I ignored so many of thosesigns throughout our
relationship.
You have to look at the actionsbecause truly actions do speak
(28:53):
louder than words.
Don't discount your gut.
Don't discount your gut becauseintuition is a very powerful
thing.
And if you feel like something'snot right, you're probably true
it's not right.
You want to believe the best inthat person because you love
them and you have this life withthem.
No one goes into a relationshipwanting it to fail, right?
(29:16):
So yes, you have to keep an eyeon those things, but you can't
discount the actions and yourintuition.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
And no one goes into a relationship having talked
about what the exit strategy isgoing to be.
Aaron Ross Powell So what didyou have to do or get in order
or learn or prep for the actualdivorce process?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Aaron Ross Powell So my mother had given me some
really great advice that I tookand then ignored and then picked
back up again.
And I joked about this earlier.
You never want to give upcontrol of your finances.
No matter how much of a task itis, like to keep track of,
especially if you're commingled.
In the late 90s, we commingledbecause we didn't have anything.
We were both poor collegestudents.
(30:01):
It didn't even occur to me tohave a separate account.
I'm dating myself, but you know,back when you had ATM receipts,
like the actual paper receipts,and you had to balance your
checkbook and quick and wasbarely a thing.
And it was like, oh my God, I'dspend like hours because he
wouldn't give me all of hisreceipts or he'd miss something
and I could never get the damncheckbook to balance.
I'm like, I can't do this, youdo it.
And I gave it up.
And I had mentioned that inpassing to my mother, and she's
(30:23):
like, Nicole, you never give upthe finances.
And I was like, oh, mom, it issuch a pain.
She's like, don't do it.
So I took that back, having beenin this relationship for 20 plus
years.
I knew where all the bodies wereburied.
I knew all the account numbers.
I had all of the paperwork.
And I had an account.
My mother's you need a it usedto be like your bra money or
(30:45):
your pin money, like you pin itin your bra.
She's like, You need a pin moneyaccount.
And I was like, What's a pinmoney account, Mom?
She's like, We're gonna open abank account together.
She's you just put some cash inwhen you have it.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
And she's and I'll put some cashin when I have it for you.
And I was like, Okay.
And she's like, You use it forwhatever you want.
It wasn't a divorce fund by anymeans.
It was just a in case you needit fund that was separate that
(31:08):
he had no access to.
Didn't he didn't even know aboutit?
I highly recommend having, ifyou do have your finances
co-mingled, or even if youdon't, know where the life
insurance policies are, knowwhere your his savings, because
even if, God forbid, there wasan accident and you need to have
access to that information justso that you're protected.
(31:28):
But financial protection isfirst and foremost, have an
account with a friend if youdon't have a family member that
you can't open an account with,because money is power.
You can't do anything withoutmoney.
Even if you need to get awayfrom a bad situation, you have
that money and you don't have toask permission or you don't have
to be like, oh my God, how am Igonna pay for this?
(31:50):
Having that, it made it a loteasier because I knew he wasn't
hiding anything.
And I knew that he didn't knowwhat I was doing.
So that made it a lot easier.
He's a lawyer and he did familylaw.
He didn't do that for most ofhis career, but he knew stuff.
But he wasn't vindictivefinancially in that way until we
(32:13):
got divorced.
And then it became a controlthing.
He had to ask me for all of thedocuments when we were doing the
filing because he didn't knowanything.
He didn't know the passwords, hedidn't know anything.
And I don't know if a lot of menwould be that cavalier now, but
I was very fortunate that waybecause I just knew there was
nothing he was hidingfinancially.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Aaron Ross Powell So you gained back control of the
finances, which puts you in aposition of power and
confidence.
You still have to have a lawyer,though.
What did your legalrepresentation look like?
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Trevor Burrus We ended up doing mediation.
I called it the do-it-yourselfdivorce.
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
DIY DIYD, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Yeah.
And I I don't know if I wouldrecommend it because I feel like
I left a lot on the table justbecause I wanted it to be done.
We were very amicable up untilthe finances.
People get real ugly over money.
I still wasn't working.
I ended up getting a job halfwaythrough our process.
(33:17):
And only because I needed somemore comfort to know that I'm
like, okay, I don't have to relyon whatever settlement or
whatever I got.
That helped me too.
So if you're not working, or ifyou feel like you shouldn't or
you can't work, like you need todo something just to give you
that confidence that I cansurvive this.
It's scary as shit.
(33:38):
And it was scary as shit becauseI was in a new place.
I didn't have a support system.
I was hesitant to tell myfriends back in New Jersey.
The only good thing aboutgetting divorced down here is
like I said, nobody knew us as acouple because it was either
you're with me or you don't knowme.
Um the mediation, it was nicefrom a financial perspective
(33:59):
because we didn't have a lot oflegal fees and back and forth,
but he did end up bullying meand I left a lot on the table.
Not only did he bully me, I alsobelieved him when he said he
would do stuff, certain stuff.
And I didn't get it in writing.
And it's it was too late.
(34:19):
Given the fact that I only hadone child that was considered a
minor, only my son was.
There was no child support formy daughter, other than her
college tuition, which is notnothing, and her medical bills.
But there was no sort ofclothing, food, transportation,
any of that.
So none of those bills werecovered.
(34:40):
He gave me the bare minimum formy son, and that was only till
he was 18.
So that was only like two yearsmore after it was all said and
done.
And then my son's college.
But again, we had college fundsfor the kids, so it's like we'd
already talked about doing that.
And everything that we did overthe years, we did with that in
mind that you would always dothat.
But I left a lot on the tablebecause A, I wanted it to be
(35:03):
done.
It was COVID.
I had shoulder surgery, mygrandmother passed away.
There was a lot of pressure Ifelt on myself to just be done
with this.
And you just get worn down.
It's exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
I got the same feedback from people.
You just get it done.
You get it done as fast as youcan.
I didn't have kids, thankfully.
And I can understand how thatjust the whole situation is a
toll on them.
But I didn't feel like justgetting it done was worth
sacrificing a position that Ihad.
(35:36):
So this feels like a veryimportant time to ask if you
could go back, dropped someknowledge bombs on us here.
What would you do differently?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
I would get more stuff in writing.
I would think a little bit morestrategically and long term.
I ended up getting alimonybecause he wouldn't give me a
lump sum settlement.
We separated our financialassets.
So I got half of that.
And then I got like 12 years ofalimony for half of our married
(36:08):
life.
But we had some other assetsthat we hadn't separated yet.
And he was like, oh, and whenthat does, I'll do that, X, Y,
and Z.
And I didn't get that inwriting.
And I should have.
I also should have asked forchild support longer, or at
least when the child supportruns out, have the alimony kick
(36:28):
up a little bit to cover forthat.
I'm the primary custodian, eventhough they're for tax purposes,
even though they're older.
They still live with me.
I feed them.
Let's transport them whereverthey need to go.
My son's driving my car, he's onmy insurance, he got in a car
accident.
That was his fault.
The insurance skyrocketed.
(36:48):
Well, of course, that wasn't aconsideration because it was
he's almost already paying.
My son's an athlete, so he's gota trainer, a nutritionist.
None of that is covered.
Getting more stuff in writingand thinking about what happens
after that next point.
Maybe I was a little naive.
I'm like, oh, he's gonna lookout for us.
No, they don't.
(37:10):
Don't believe.
Don't believe.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
So get it in writing and don't believe.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
Because they wanted it done as much as you do.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
Especially if there's someone there waiting in
the wings.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
He got married six months afterour divorce was finally.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Good for her.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
That's her problem now.
A frequent mantra that I say isI know what I'm getting out of.
And she has no idea what she'sgetting into.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
That is absolutely correct.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
You said this moment or this time it is scary as shit
for those reasons.
How did you get through it?
Like the toughest of days.
What tools or support orresources did you utilize to
help yourself get through it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Aaron Ross Powell Tequila.
Tequila, friendships.
And seriously, I I'm not ajournaler, but my therapist was
like, you don't have to becauseI was like, dear diary.
And you have to write this wholething.
I'm like, oh my God, I don'twant to do that.
And she's like, you don't haveto do that.
That's not journaling.
She's like, you could just writea sentence.
She's like, if you just want towrite the word asshole 15 times,
(38:21):
she's like, just do it.
It would get it out.
So I wrote my ex a letter.
I wrote two letters.
I wrote him one letter that Igave him.
I didn't want to send it.
And I'm like not big on, I don'twant anything to ever come back
to me.
So I was like, I don't know if Iwant to do that.
But he's so irresponsible thathe probably threw it away.
(38:41):
Or maybe his new wife found it.
That'd be great, actually.
So I wrote two letters.
I wrote one that I gave to him,and then I wrote one for me, and
I let everything out.
So then I did this journal and Iwas just a stream of thought.
Like I'd write a sentence hereor there.
If I was having a really hardday, I'd just put it in there.
And then she recommended when Ifelt like it to burn it.
(39:06):
Burn the journal?
Burn the journal.
She's like, rip the pages outand just burn it.
She's like, you don't have to,you don't have to read it.
You don't have to do anythingwith it.
She's like, just burn it.
I found that to be very helpful.
I didn't burn it all at once.
Some days I just felt likeburning shit.
So I would do it.
So that was really helpful.
And I've just felt a lot ofpressure with the journal.
I still have it because I didn'tburn the whole thing.
(39:28):
And every now and then I'llwrite a little something in
there.
But it's one of those thingswhere I'm like, I gotta get it
out of the house.
Because if something ever tohappen to me and my kids find
it, I don't want them to readthat because it's really, again,
I'm still trying to protect him.
I don't know why, but I don'twant them to know.
Like they see, and I'll I'vetold them, I'm like, it's been
hard and it's a struggle.
(39:49):
And my son and I had a reallyhard conversation when I was
working, and he was like, I hatethis.
I hate what dad did.
And I was like, listen, we'refine.
I'm gonna be fine, and thingsare gonna be different, but this
is okay.
Because I was working a lottrying to get myself
reestablished in a corporateAmerica career.
And I was putting in a lot ofhours.
That I thought was really goodfor them to see.
(40:10):
This was life-changing for notonly them, but for me and for me
to come out of it with a newcareer.
They see me with great friends,they see me going out and doing
stuff and traveling.
I'm like, that is so importantfor me that they see that.
They see I have boundaries withtheir dad, they see I have
(40:30):
boundaries with them, because mydaughter will say, Dad's really
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, okay, I'lllisten and feel free to vent.
But I'm not gonna give you anopinion.
That's what you have yourtherapist for.
But you can always tell mesomething, but I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna give you anythingbecause that's your dad.
But she knows.
(40:51):
She has definitely put the dotstogether.
SPEAKER_01 (40:55):
Your your children have seen you reestablish your
corporate career, surrounded byloving friends who are
supportive, um, go out and dothings on your own, probably
have a whole new level ofconfidence.
I just think about they got tosee all that.
And what would they see if youguys were still together?
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Ooh, that's a good question.
I always had a level ofindependence.
I would go out and do stuff andI would go out on girls' trips,
and he never kept me down, butthe tone in the house was
different.
Like I said, you had to walk oneggshells, and dad sometimes had
a temper or it's cranky.
(41:37):
There's none of that.
Our house is so calm.
We have fun, we'll go onvacation and it's easy.
We all get along, we love to goout to dinner.
We we have we laugh, and it'sjust a completely different
vibe.
I think if I were still married,they'd probably not see the me
(42:00):
that they're seeing now becauseI do go out a lot as and I do
have fun and I like to travel.
Sometimes I'll bring them withme, or we'll do stuff together.
And I I think they they're happyfor me.
They're happy to see that I'mnot just surviving, but I'm
enjoying middle-aged singlehood.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Yeah.
You've been through hell, and Ithink divorce crystallizes our
values when we go through orreally any traumatic experience.
What core values crystallizedfor you as a result of going
through this?
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
I think that I realize that I don't have to
settle for anything.
If I don't feel comfortable in asituation or I feel like I'm not
being valued, I know that I canmove on.
I know that I have the strengthto figure my shit out.
(43:03):
I will never be put in thatposition again.
I always knew that I was strong.
My grandmother that passed awaywas always like, I never thought
you'd be married, and I didn'tthink you'd be a good mother.
And I was like, isn't that acompliment?
Family's very harsh.
But I get what she said becauseI always was like, oh, I'm gonna
go live in Europe when I wasyounger.
I'm like, I'm gonna travel allthe world, I'm gonna have this
great career, and I never talkedabout having kids.
(43:25):
Like I always liked kids, but Inever talked about having kids,
and I never really talked abouthaving a husband.
So when I met him and I waslike, oh, this is great.
I do want to have kids and I dowant to get married.
And now I'm like back to thatwoman that I was when I was in
my 20s, where I'm like, oh, I'mnever doing this again.
Because I'm having the fun thatI should have been having 30
(43:45):
years ago.
I just knowing that I can dothis.
I'm strong and I don't have tosettle.
I'm open to new things, but I'malso like, uh take it or leave
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
You also have the confidence to say, no, not
interested.
SPEAKER_00 (44:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
So we talked about support and tools and resources.
If we get into these rapid firequestions.
Okay.
What books or articles orwritten work or whatever it
might be maybe especially spoketo you or were especially
helpful during this time?
SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
Aaron Ross Powell So I think because I didn't know
much about narcissism, wasinstantly drawn to I'm like,
what is that?
And what does that mean?
Because I'm like, I'd read somestuff, I'm like, uh, it wasn't
really our relationship.
But then I'd read other stuffand I learned about covert
narcissism, which is exactlywhat he was.
Like if you were to meet him, ohperfect husband, he's oh, I love
(44:38):
my wife, you were great, andblah, blah, blah, blah.
But then there's the hiddenstuff.
And he wasn't physicallyabusive, but definitely there
was emotional abuse.
I a hundred percent have PTSDfrom our relationship.
And I mentioned controlfinancially.
There's still that.
I always worry that the alimonyis the payments aren't going to
(44:59):
be because he refuses toautomate it.
So it's a couple days late, andit's super annoying.
So I read up on narcissism.
And one of the trips I tookright after COVID, I went to
Greece with a friend, and I wasmeeting her there.
And I met this woman on theplane, and we started talking.
And I don't know how it came up.
Maybe I said I was just recentlydivorced, and she was with her
(45:22):
husband, but he was in the podnext to us.
And I was like, Do you want toswitch?
I'm happy to switch.
And she's no.
She's like, I had enough of himand I got these books to read.
And she pulled it out, and Ihappened to see the word
narcissist.
And I was like, Oh, I'm like,You're married to a narcissist?
And she's, he's not.
And I'm reading to make surethat he never becomes one.
SPEAKER_01 (45:41):
It's called preventative maintenance.
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I'm like, I just got out of arelationship.
We talked the whole eight-hourflight about that.
And she gave me a bunch ofpodcasts to listen to and some
books to read.
So that was very helpful becauseI didn't know.
I really, I don't know how Imissed that in my, but nobody
really talked about that.
And so that was very helpful.
(46:04):
And really just taking time tothink about what I wanted.
So I have a bunch of friendsthat are into alternative
medicine, energy healing, andall sorts of woo-woo shit.
I love it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
I'm a health coach.
I love it all.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
So I did a lot of chakra clearing and I had a lot
of attachments.
One of the energy healers toldme I had attachments, so I was
all into doing all of thatstuff.
And again, I felt better.
I I don't know if it helped ornot, but mentally it helped me.
So uh th that was something elsethat I found pretty helpful.
(46:40):
Now I've gotten out of all ofthe narcissist stuff because I'm
like, it is what it is.
I know who he is.
I don't need to.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
And you know how to identify one.
Yes.
I don't believe anybody's I'vejust talked with a lot of
people, and music is a powerfulthing.
What's your divorce anthem song?
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
It's a lovely song by a woman called Martha Wayne
Wright, um, Bloody MotherfuckingAsshole.
That's the name of the song.
That's the name of the song.
unknown (47:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
I'll have to it's like bulksy.
She sounds all lovely and sweet,but if you really look at the
words and it's talking about I'mnot pretending anymore.
I can do this on my own withoutyou, and you're a bloody
motherfucking asshole.
It's a really it's a good song.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:29):
It's not very covert there.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
No, I'm really not hiding anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (47:33):
No, no.
This is an odd question.
Someone asked me, what gifts oropportunities did your divorce
bring you?
And I had to stop and thinkabout it and be like, oh, that's
interesting.
I wouldn't have had a number ofexperiences this thing not
happened.
So what gifts or opportunitiesdid your divorce bring you?
SPEAKER_00 (47:55):
I would say the greatest gift was peace because
I literally could breathe in myown home and I didn't have to
tiptoe around and I could justrelax.
Like I felt like I was in such astate of fight or flight for so
long.
I didn't have that anymore.
Like I thought I didn't likeAtlanta, but it really had
(48:16):
nothing to do with Atlanta.
It had to do with inside thehouse.
So that truly was the greatestgift.
I did mention that I love totravel and I've been doing a lot
of traveling, been to many greatplaces, and we traveled a lot as
a couple, but it's travelingwithout issue.
Oh, I want to go here?
Great, I'm going here.
Let me make sure the dog's okayand the kids are okay.
(48:38):
It's just a different level offreedom.
And again, you can't buy that.
Yeah.
The freedom is quite nice.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
I told some of my married friends, I get to do
whatever I want to do whenever Iwant to do it, however I want,
with whomever I want.
Exactly.
And they're like, oh, thatdoesn't seem so bad.
Exactly.
You've given us so manyknowledge bombs here today.
(49:07):
If you were to leave listeners,or if listeners were to walk
away with insights or aha's,what would you want them to walk
away with having listened toyour story?
SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
Um I would say trust your gut, don't discount the
intuition.
Even if you think that yourrelationship may work, I would
still always have that pin moneyaccount.
And don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid because beingalone is amazing.
(49:44):
Being alone and being in peaceis priceless.
So I have a friend that's goingthrough a situation, and I think
it's the fear that's holding herback, but she's miserable.
As an outsider looking in, Iknow what she's going through,
and it's so heartbreakingbecause I want the best for my
(50:06):
friend.
I'm so happy.
I want everybody to be thisfucking happy.
If she thought that it was gonnawork out and she was gonna be
happy, I'd be all in.
Great, go for it.
But when you know in your heartof hearts that it's not right,
it's not right, and youshouldn't force something.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
And you just want to be able to almost like take the
confidence and the wisdom thatyou have earned and put it on
someone else.
But it you almost have to gothrough it to really understand
like it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:41):
It's gonna be okay.
It was really hard.
And I was definitely scared.
Like I said, I'd probably stillbe there unless he took the
choice away.
Which am I grateful?
Yes.
There's no kind of I am.
I am.
Grateful that He had an affair.
SPEAKER_01 (50:59):
Because that was the out.
It became like a non-negotiableat that point.
Exactly.
No, okay, we're done here.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
I was like, well, took that one out.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (51:06):
Now we're off the table.
Yeah.
Thanks, therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (51:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:10):
I'm sorry, I did think of one final question, and
it it might be the most one ofthe most important questions of
the podcast.
Did you win that tennis matchafter the therapy session?
Hell yeah.
Fuck yes.
SPEAKER_00 (51:26):
Yes.
So glad to hear that.
And we stayed and drank at umthe tennis court for three
hours.
Nice.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
A little tennis therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (51:35):
Yes, the margaritas were strong.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
Well, Nicole, thank you so much for just being open
to sharing this.
I know it's not easy.
You have given us so much.
SPEAKER_00 (51:49):
Probably too much that I overshare.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
No, I think it's helpful for people to get a peek
inside the real stories ofwhat's going on.
And that's the mission purposeof this podcast.
So thank you so much for doingthe assignment.
SPEAKER_00 (52:02):
Yes, absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
And I think that's great thatyou're branching out and doing
this.
And all the best to you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(52:31):
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
Welcome to Bitter or Better, real stories of divorce
and resilience, the podcast thatgets real about the messy middle
of divorce and what it takes tocome out stronger on the other
side.
I'm your host, Abby England,marketer, national board
certified health and wellnesscoach, and author of the
upcoming book, Bitter or Better,and I've personally earned my
(00:21):
divorce Kevlar.
This podcast isn't legal advice.
It isn't tips and tricks anddon't forgets and hacks and
how-tos.
There's plenty of other podcastsout there interviewing lawyers,
therapists, accountants, allsorts of divorce scientists.
This podcast is raw, realconversations with everyday
(00:42):
people who have jobs, kids,responsibilities, commitments,
and yet they've weathered theheartbreak, rebuilt their lives,
and found unexpected strengthalong the way.
Because while divorce can breakyou, it can also make you
better.
You are not alone.
Let's hear someone else's storyand see what resonates.
Okay.
(01:02):
I'm so excited to be here in ournew podcast studio.
I feel like I should havebrought champagne for this for
that reason to celebrate, butthen also because we might want
to drink.
Because it's seven o'clock.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
I'm not going to lie.
I had a drink before I came.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Good for you.
Good for you.
I should have poured me somelimoncello while I was getting
ready and you know pregamed alittle bit.
But if you would just introduceyourself to our listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
My name is Nicole Ramsor, and I met our awesome
host, Abby, at tennis, and webonded over our divorces.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Yes.
The way we met was the same daythat I found out that we had
that similar story.
We were like warming up intennis, and there's two on one
side of the court, two on theother side of the court.
And one of the girls was like,Abby, how'd you like, why'd you
move to Atlanta?
And I was just like, oh, for myex-husband's job, and he had an
affair at work, and I got lefthere.
(02:03):
And you were like, Me too.
I was like, oh.
I need to hear your story.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
We definitely bonded over that very strange
coincidence.
Not a lot of people can say theymet that way.
unknown (02:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
That's what makes it so special.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Thank you for being here and for opening up on this
chapter of your life.
We can laugh about it now.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Because you're a few years out from it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Yes.
So my divorce was final inDecember of 2020.
Not only did the whole worldshut down by the pandemic, but I
also got divorced and I had onlybeen in Atlanta for about a year
and a half.
It was a lot at once.
Yeah.
Also had shoulder surgery, lostmy grandmother.
Like 2020 was a horrible year,but the divorce ended in
(02:55):
December.
So it was great to have that asthe final chapter for 2020.
And then 2021 opened up lots offun things.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Oh, okay.
We'll talk about the fun things.
Let's maybe get through the hardthings first so that we can talk
about the fun things.
Yeah, that was a really toughyear, it sounds like on a number
of accounts.
A divorce is traumatizing in andof itself.
What made you agree to say yesto come on and share your story?
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
There's so much stigma around divorce.
There really shouldn't be,because I feel like people now
really maybe aren't meant forlong-term relationships.
And for a while I was reallynervous to tell my parents when
I was going through it, justbecause my ex had a great
relationship with my mom.
And it was a it was that shamething too.
And I was like, there's nothingto be ashamed of.
(03:44):
I didn't do anything wrong.
And it's life.
If I can make somebody else'sexperience or make somebody
else's feelings feel validated,then why the fuck not?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
We all want to feel validated in our stories.
And you've done that to one, atleast one.
And she's sitting here acrossfrom you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
I just feel we should all be strong.
And it's a scary thing.
You should never feel likeyou're doing it by yourself.
If anyone listening to this isquestioning whether they want to
get divorced, whether theyshould get divorced, or maybe
not even divorce, but just Ineed to get out of whatever
situation I'm in.
If they hear this and feel like,okay, this woman was married for
(04:24):
24 years and she did it, whycan't I do it?
That was my reason.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Take us back.
Let's rewind the clock and helpset the stage.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
We met when I was 20 years old.
I was a junior in college and hewas a first-year law student up
at Syracuse.
He was like larger than life,big man on campus.
We had mutual friends in common.
I just thought he was thisreally magnanimous magnanimous
personality and a lot of fun.
(04:55):
I actually was dating somebodyelse when we met.
We met six months before westarted dating through mutual
friend.
He'd been asking me out throughmy friend, and I didn't know
because I never, my roommate, Inever saw her.
So we ran into each other.
He's like, You're too good forme.
You can't go out with me.
And I was like, I don't knowwhat you're talking about.
And we realized that I wasn'tgetting his messages, and I
don't think he really believedme.
(05:16):
So we started dating, and thatwas it.
This guy, he was so into me.
He was so great.
We planned all these romanticdates in college.
Everyone's having fun.
And it's just a really good fit.
And then I go to Europe foralmost 10 months, my senior year
of college, and he came to visitme and he was writing me
(05:36):
letters.
I would get five letters a weekfrom this guy.
And I was like, oh my God,that's so romantic, right?
He's so great.
And then when I got back, Igraduated and he still had law
school and we had along-distance relationship.
I was living in New Jersey andthen I moved to DC.
And he was still in law school.
And then he graduated and he wasliving in Delaware, and I was in
(05:57):
DC.
So it was a couple hoursdistance.
But he finally was like, we needto be in the same place.
We've had this long-distancerelationship for three years.
We really need to be in the sameplace.
And I was like, I don't know.
I have this great job, right?
I was working for ATT and I wasin DC, and there was always
stuff to do, and there wasalways things going on, and it
was really just starting mycareer.
(06:18):
And he was like, we really needto be together.
He's like, I can't move to DCbecause he was clerking for his
job.
So I was like, okay.
And at the time, ATT had offereda buyout package and it was a
really great package.
I was 24.
They threw a ton of money at me.
And then I have this guy saying,Oh, if you move here, we're
going to get engaged.
And I was like, Oh, okay, thisis great.
(06:40):
This is everything that Ithought I wanted, right?
We had had a couple of issueswhen we were dating, but I
really chalked it up to longdistance.
We weren't in the same place.
We were on different pages orwhatever.
So I took a buyout package.
I moved to Wilmington, Delawarewhen I was 24 years old.
You can't see Abby's face rightnow, but it's like mortified.
(07:02):
And it was a great place to beif you were married with
children or middle-aged, which Iwas neither.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
And my mother-in-law was super clingy.
So we get engaged.
I lived there for a year, and Iwas like, this place is
horrible.
Nothing against Wilmington,Delaware for anybody listening.
It's a really pretty place, butit just wasn't where I wanted to
be.
I had a terrible job.
And I said, listen, we need tofigure our life out because I
don't see myself beingcomfortable staying here
(07:31):
forever.
Based on his job, we pickedBoston or San Francisco.
We ended up in Boston.
Things were good, but now I'mplanning a long-distance
wedding.
So we're getting married in NewJersey.
This is the first time when wemoved to Boston that we were
actually cohabitating.
He had never lived alone before,other than college, that doesn't
really count.
So there was a little bit of aadjustment.
(07:52):
And again, I chalked it up to ussort of figuring this stuff out.
I wasn't working when we movedto Boston.
So there was a little bit of afinancial pull because it wasn't
a cheap city.
We worked it out.
And hindsight, there was a lotof, there was a lot of red
flags.
And I again just ignored them.
I was super young and I didn'tknow myself.
(08:15):
I didn't know really him.
I only knew what he portrayed.
So we got married.
Fast forward to mid-2000s, I getpregnant.
I had gotten a really great job,similar to the job I had in DC,
but it was like super high.
There was a lot.
It was a lot of pressure.
When I got pregnant, I knew Ialways wanted to be a
stay-at-home mom.
And that was one of the thingsthat we both had agreed on
(08:38):
because both of our mothers werestay-at-home moms, and that was
very important to us.
We had very good alignment ofour family values.
So we left Boston and moved toNew Jersey.
And then things were coming up.
I found out that he had asubstance abuse problem, which I
knew a little bit of, but Ididn't know the full extent of
(08:59):
it until there was one night Ihad to take him to the ER and
found out that he almost OD'd oncocaine.
That was a shock to me.
I was like, what have I gotmyself into?
But at that point, I had twokids.
I had just gotten my real estatelicense because I wanted to
still keep active, even thoughthat wasn't my primary focus.
(09:19):
Fast forward to he got himselftogether.
I, in my mind, I'm like, okay,this is just marriage.
It's not all fun.
You have ups and downs and youwork through it.
We went to counseling.
We admittedly probably couldhave gone to more counseling,
but it just with the kids beinglittle and life, and he got this
(09:40):
great job that he was travelinga lot, that the counseling sort
of petered out and things gotbetter.
Looking back, he got better atmasking.
He was working for a Germancompany.
So for the next 15 years, he wasin Germany, not consecutively,
but for two and a half to threeweeks out of the month, at least
one or two days a week, he wouldgo to Germany.
(10:01):
I yeah, it was actually great.
unknown (10:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Because I had my life, we had the kids, and then
when he was home, he was fundad, he was fun husband.
We would go out and then I wouldjoke to people.
I'm like, and I was doing thefinances, I would joke.
I'm like, the money adds up, soI really don't care what he's
doing.
You know, he could have a wholenother family, but I'm like, the
money added up.
So he I really didn't thinkthat.
It could be a German family, butit could maybe she had the
money, but all I know is hispaycheck matched and everything
(10:28):
else.
In 2016, his mom passed away.
Like right before that happened,this company was saying that
they wanted him to be overseasmore.
And his mom always had healthissues, and he just didn't want
to.
And it really was hard.
I didn't want him to either atthat point.
So he ended up taking a buyoutpackage.
(10:49):
So he was home, and then his mompassed away.
That was probably the pivotalmoment when everything started
to go to hell.
He had midlife crisis, went outand bought this stupid,
ridiculous car, had beendrinking.
And I guess I forgot, somewherein there in our history, he he
got a DUI, so he'd gone torehab, and he'd he swore he
(11:12):
would never do coke again, butit was the drinking and pot
smoking or whatever.
And he was like, I don't have aproblem.
Got the DUI.
And when his mom passed away,that was really when he lost his
what I call her his anger.
We were also living togetheragain a hundred percent of the
time.
That was a lot because I had thelife.
(11:34):
I played tennis, even though Isold real estate, I really was a
housewife.
I volunteered and did a lot ofstuff at my kids' school, maybe
had a couple of real estatedeals a couple times a month.
I was having lunch, doing areally nice lady of leisure
life.
And he was now looking for me tobe his source of entertainment.
I was like, yeah, we could dostuff, but I got other stuff to
(11:57):
do, and I don't want to be yoursole sense of entertainment.
He got really upset.
Definitely there was acting out.
So then he gets a job and wemoved to Atlanta.
It was a little bit of a sourceof contention with the family
because my daughter was a juniorin high school and she didn't
really want to move.
So he was commuting for a year.
Again, that was great for me.
(12:18):
I'm like, oh, finally he's outof the house.
I got my life back.
I don't have to be on as a wife24-7.
So we moved to Atlanta in 2018.
My daughter goes to college.
My son's starting high school,new school.
I've given up yet another careerbecause I'd been established as
a real estate agent for 15, 16years.
(12:39):
And I'm moving to a place whereI have no support system.
I knew one person and I hadn'treally seen her since high
school.
We weren't really super close.
It was hard.
And then I was also startingmenopause, like I was in
perimenopause.
So there was like a whole it's aperfect shitstorm.
I was gonna say shit.
You couldn't have anything elseon that plate.
(12:59):
It was hard.
And then his dad passed awaythat December of 2018.
And then his grandmother.
So now he's lost his three, andI'm not making excuses by any
means because there's noexcuses, but he lost three very
important people to him, and hewent off the rails.
When we moved here, we would dosome stuff together, but we
(13:20):
didn't do a lot.
We didn't make friends togetheras a couple.
We would go out to dinner, butit was the two of us.
It was very, very much againseparate.
In order for me to findsomething of my own, I started
playing tennis and I just joinedtennis drills and would hang
out.
I wasn't working, so that wasalso stressful.
We hadn't sold our house in NewJersey, also stressful.
(13:41):
And then we did and was goingback and forth and looking for a
place here.
We ended up renting a house fora year.
I'm so thankful that we didthat.
Whatever reasoning sign that wasout there for us not to buy a
house down here, it was great.
Because shortly thereafter, hestarts saying that I'm not
happy, you're not there for me,I need more from you, and I
(14:06):
don't feel passion anymore.
And I was like, I'm strugglingtoo.
I'm like, I have all of thisother shit going on.
I'm like, I don't see anysupport from you either.
Then we decided to go intocounseling in 2019.
He needed grief counselingbecause he never really
processed his mother's death,let alone his father and his
grandmother.
And he was so adamant that hewas fine and it wasn't, but
(14:28):
literally, I would come home andjust the heaviness in the house
was suffocating.
I never knew who I was gonnadeal with.
I'd take my son to school andI'd see his car in the drive,
and he'd be like, oh God, Igotta keep driving.
Cause I don't want I don't wantto be with this guy.
I just don't want to be with himbecause I know he's gonna be
just this like heavy wetblanket.
Suffocating is the only word Icould think of, because it was
(14:49):
really a lot.
We go to counseling and we meetthis great counselor, and I was
like, I really think he needs toprocess some other stuff because
yeah, we have issues.
I'm not denying that at allbecause we haven't really lived
together that often for extendedperiods of time.
And now here we are in order torely on each other, and it's not
(15:10):
really great.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
So you're having to be like each other's everything
to each other.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
I I'm very independent and I don't like
that in general.
Like in any relationship thatI'd ever been in, I like my
independence.
I want to be able to go and dowhat I want to do or have a
little bit of flexibility whereI'm like, I don't have to check
in with somebody else.
The therapist was like, Yeah, Ican see why you would think that
he would need grief counseling.
And he was like, Oh, I don'tthink so.
(15:35):
And and she's what bothers youabout your wife?
And he's I just want somebodythat I I want to have fun, I
want to have somebody that I candate.
And because I'd been saying,let's block out Thursday
afternoon and Friday night orwhatever it was.
I'm like, we'll do stufftogether.
And he's like, Why does it haveto be an appointment?
I'm like, it doesn't have to bean appointment, but I'm like, I
got stuff to do.
Like, you're busy, I'm busy.
(15:56):
What is the problem with sayingFriday night date night or
Thursday night date night?
I'm like, everybody does it.
I'm like, why are you so opposedto it?
But he he was like, I want todate and I want to go have fun.
And the therapist looked at himand she's I know 15 guys that
would jump at the chance to dateyour wife.
They're like, You she'sintelligent, she's beautiful,
she's kind.
(16:16):
She pretty much wanted to say,What the fuck's your problem?
But she couldn't because it wasmarriage counseling.
At least that was myinterpretation of it.
I could be wrong.
So we ended up deciding to haveher be his personal counselor.
And then another woman in thepractice was going to be our
marriage counselor.
So we got him to agree to that.
(16:36):
We were going to do this wholesurvey about where we need to
work on our marriage.
So we did this whole survey, andI happened to be away the
weekend that we were doing it.
And so he's texting me and he'sstressing me out.
Did you do it?
And I was like, Yeah, I did it.
I'm like, it was stressful, butI did it.
And he's like, I don't know if Ican do it.
And I was like, Oh, what's theproblem?
Either we do it or we don't.
And I was still, I was likeapprehensive because I was like,
(16:57):
does this mean we're getting adivorce?
In my mind, I still hadn't cometo that decision because I
really thought that we were justin a low period, right?
They happened.
I get home on a Monday night,and Tuesday is our therapist
meeting.
So we had submitted everythingSunday night.
So she reviewed it, and Tuesdaywe're going to therapy.
So I go to therapy, we met eachother because he was coming from
(17:19):
work and he was like outside andhe was all sweaty.
And I was like, what's going on?
And I was going to, we had aplayoff tennis match after
therapy.
Like, never a good idea.
I was like, what's going on?
He's like, I don't know.
I'm just, I'm he's like, I'm allworked up.
He's like, I think I'm I don'tknow what's happening.
So we go sit in therapy, andliterally he's sweating bullets.
(17:40):
And I was like, oh my God, is heon something?
That was the first thing Ithought of.
I'm like, what is I'm like, thisis not gonna be good.
We're sitting there and she getsout our results, and she was
like talking about how this isthe foundation to a new
relationship and we're gonna berebuilding.
He gets up and leaves.
And I was like, Oh.
And she's like, What's going on?
I'm like, I have no idea.
(18:01):
So she's like, Should I go knockon the bathroom door?
Do you want to?
I'm like, I will.
So I'm like, Are you okay?
I'm like, oh, come back in.
So he comes back in and he's Ican't do this.
And I was like, What do you meanyou can't do this?
What today?
Again, I'm like, dumb me.
And I was like, What do you meanyou can't do this?
And he is, I haven't been honestwith you.
I've been having an affair.
(18:22):
And I was like, Oh, glad wewasted all this money on
marriage counseling.
We had always talked about whatour lines in the sand would be
like, even in the beginning ofour relationship.
I'm like, there's some stuffthat I just won't tolerate.
And that obviously was one ofthem.
Looking back on it now, I feellike that he wanted out and he
(18:45):
knew that would get me out.
That would be it, becauseotherwise I'd probably still be
in a loveless marriage trying tomake it work.
SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Thinking this is just what marriage is.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Thank you.
That was a lot.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (18:59):
No, you set the stage in the context.
Things don't just happenovernight.
So you took us through that.
Really appreciate your honestyand transparency.
When that affair bomb wasdropped on you, can you take us
back to what you were feeling inthat moment?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
I literally went numb.
And I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
Just blindsided.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
Yeah.
Of all the things that I thoughtthat was never, I just never
thought that he would be thatdisrespectful to our life that
we had built together.
I was 20, he was 23.
That's a lot of things.
Yeah, you built we went througha lot of shit together.
Our families were very close.
(19:44):
I was very close to his parentsand his sister.
He's very close to my family.
I really, I went numb.
I was like, okay.
And I got up and I went to the Iwent to the bathroom and the
therapist knocked on the doorand she's like, Are you okay?
I'm like, I have to go to atennis match.
I don't know how I'm reallysupposed to like focus.
And she's like, This is whatyou're gonna do.
(20:04):
She's wash your hands, visualizeall of this getting washed off
and going down the sink andgoing down the drain, and you go
kick ass in your tennis match.
And I was like, Okay, I can dothat.
I didn't go back into the room.
He tried to talk to me on theway out, and I was like, I can't
talk to you right now.
So I did.
I went to my tennis match, and Ihave to say, tennis really saved
(20:24):
my life for many reasons.
But the women that I met throughtennis, they had no idea.
It wasn't like Team Nicole.
They didn't know us as a couple.
They only knew me.
It was nice to be able to dosomething where I didn't have to
worry about somebody was gonnaask a question like, oh, how's
blah, blah, blah, or how's this,or do you guys want to come for
(20:44):
this?
But there was none of that.
It was great to be able to goand just literally shut my mind
off and totally compartmentalizeand then not deal with it.
Later that night, when I gothome, my son was there, so I
made dinner.
I didn't want to talk to him,but I also didn't want him to
not be in the house, as weird asthat sounds, because I like I
needed to know that he wasn't,not that I cared that he was
(21:06):
have like I did care that he washaving an affair, but if I told
him to get out, I knew I wouldwonder where was he and what was
he doing.
That was me exercising controlover the situation, being like,
I don't want to talk to you, butyou have to stay in the house.
He was like, I can go staysomewhere.
I'm like, no, you can stay here.
Weirdly enough, too, we stayedin the same bed for three days.
(21:29):
And I just totally, I know,bizarre, right?
But again, it was like I neededto know where he was and what he
was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
Why was that important to you?
SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
I didn't want to have to wonder because I knew if
I couldn't see him, I didn'tknow what he was doing.
And this probably harkens backto the cocaine thing and the
DUI.
I just worried.
And honestly, there weresuicidal moments too with him.
So I knew that if I could seehim, I didn't have to worry
(21:59):
about.
That.
And I could just be mad at himand let him know that I was mad
at him by not talking to him andignoring him.
That went on for three daysbefore he finally said, I can't
do this anymore.
And I was like, okay.
We hadn't said anything to ourson.
And with my daughter being awayin college, we weren't the table
flipping sort of family.
(22:20):
We never really fought in frontof them.
There might have been tensemoments, but that it wasn't like
expressive.
So it was going to be a shock tothem.
And I didn't want to do that tomy daughter because she's super
sensitive.
I didn't want to FaceTime herand be like, hey, guess what?
We're getting a divorce becauseit would just come out of
nowhere.
And my son was 14 at the time.
(22:41):
Didn't really want to sayanything to him without telling
her, because then she'd be upsetthat she didn't know too.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis a horrible situation.
I was like, hey, I'll leaveafter he goes to bed and I'll
come back in the morning andI'll take him to school.
And I was like, okay.
So that went on for four months.
So this was October that thedivorce bomb was dropped.
(23:01):
So when my daughter came backfor Christmas break, we kept up
the charade for two months.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Trevor Burrus Where he would leave at night and then
come back in the morning.
So your son didn't know that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
No, because he was a teenage boy and completely
oblivious.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
No, you that's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
It was a lot.
And I would still make dinnerand then like we would still
have dinner or go out to dinner.
Oh, and I forgot to say ouranniversary was September 27th.
So this divorce bomb happenedlike the first week of October.
So one of the things duringmarriage counseling, she was
like, What are you guys doingfor your anniversary?
I'm like, I don't know.
I keep asking, and he didn'twant to do anything.
So she's like, You need to goout.
(23:38):
So we went out and had the worstfucking dinner for our
anniversary.
And we didn't say like literallythree words.
It was so bad.
I should have known, you know,that something was really wrong.
But again, yeah, you didn'tknow.
I didn't think that it was, youknow, broken that.
Irretrievably crushed.
Not just broken.
Crushed.
(23:58):
So that went on for two months.
And then my daughter came homefor Christmas break.
We told them both that we weregetting divorced and nothing
would change.
And he even admitted when wetold the kids that it was him.
He wanted, he wasn't happy.
He took the blame and said thathe was always going to take care
of us and it was always going tobe good and we're always still
(24:19):
going to be a family.
Now, what I didn't know then wasthat he had already had this
girlfriend and she had alreadymet my kids.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
Can I ask if he shared with the kids what was
the real story?
He did not.
SPEAKER_00 (24:38):
And we had talked about that, and I had said, it's
none of their business, and itdoesn't serve any purpose for
them because I was still tryingto protect them from the
situation.
I don't know if that was theright thing to do, but I said,
I'm never going to say anythingthat puts you in a bad light to
them.
I'm not going to talk down.
That's just not me.
You're their dad for life.
(24:59):
Just because we didn't work out.
Now I'm not an angel, and therewere been many a time where I've
had to bite my tongue and notsay what I'm like, really.
But I think at this point, mydaughter knows.
I'm sure my son does too, but hejust doesn't want to say
anything.
I'm not going to lie to themeither.
If they flat out ask me, I willsay what happened.
(25:19):
But if they're not asking, it'sreally not their business.
Again, I didn't want them tothink that their father was a
piece of shit bag.
I don't know if I did the rightthing by shielding them
throughout their life of thetrue man that he was.
But now they know, and it's notthrough anything that I've said
or done.
They now see that their dad is anarcissist.
(25:42):
I didn't know that word when Iwas 20.
I didn't know that word when Iwas 30.
I knew it when I was 40, but Ididn't know the full extent of
it until after the divorce bomband therapy.
I started going to therapy forme with her.
And yeah, he's got a lot ofnarcissistic tendencies.
(26:02):
So I started reading up on that.
I was like, oh, yes, he he did.
And my daughter's had a lot oftherapy for other reasons.
She sees it.
When I, as soon as I said to thekids, I'm like, your dad's a
narcissist, she's like, yeah,you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
Aaron Ross Powell In that story, you honored a number
of values that was important toyou.
If you had to name a couple ofthose values that were important
for you to model with yourchildren, what would those
values have been?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
You make the best decisions you can at the time.
For me, it was important for mykids' relationship with their
dad to be intact.
And I didn't want it to be anugly back and forth.
I didn't want them to have tochoose because they were old.
They were 14 and 17 or 14 and18.
I wanted them to still be ableto have a good relationship with
(26:56):
their dad because we both hadgood relationships with our dads
and still do.
And family is very important.
I I don't come from a divorcedfamily.
He didn't come from a divorcedfamily.
Like I said, if it hadn't beenfor the affair, I would have
still been plugging along tryingto make it work and not really
being true to myself.
That I think I did a little bitof a disservice to my kids
(27:20):
because I masked a lot of stuff.
I internalized a lot of stuff,and I just tried to make
everything great.
It was hard for them to see thatwe were getting divorced because
they didn't see anything likethat.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
So they were, in effect, blindsided about it
also.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Yes, very much.
And that was hard.
That was really hard.
I thought my daughter would bemore upset.
It took her a little bit longerto process, and she was upset,
but my son was like visibly inthe moment upset and scared.
And I was like, wow, I didn'tsee that coming.
Yeah, they were blindsided.
Again, I don't know if that wasthe right thing to do, but that
(27:58):
was the way I I never saw myparents fight.
I modeled my relationship afterwhat I saw.
And I was like, oh, you take allyour fights behind closed doors,
you just put a good faceforward.
But I don't that's notrealistic.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
So part of this mission of the podcast is to ask
those that have been there,lived through that.
If you were going to give adviceto someone who was maybe also in
a similar situation, or evenmaybe advice that you could give
to yourself back in those days,what what would you say?
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
Everyone's situation is different and every man is
different.
I think when you're dealing witha narcissist, he said all the
right words.
All the right words, but hisactions never added up to what
he would say.
And I ignored so many of thosesigns throughout our
relationship.
You have to look at the actionsbecause truly actions do speak
(28:53):
louder than words.
Don't discount your gut.
Don't discount your gut becauseintuition is a very powerful
thing.
And if you feel like something'snot right, you're probably true
it's not right.
You want to believe the best inthat person because you love
them and you have this life withthem.
No one goes into a relationshipwanting it to fail, right?
(29:16):
So yes, you have to keep an eyeon those things, but you can't
discount the actions and yourintuition.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
And no one goes into a relationship having talked
about what the exit strategy isgoing to be.
Aaron Ross Powell So what didyou have to do or get in order
or learn or prep for the actualdivorce process?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Aaron Ross Powell So my mother had given me some
really great advice that I tookand then ignored and then picked
back up again.
And I joked about this earlier.
You never want to give upcontrol of your finances.
No matter how much of a task itis, like to keep track of,
especially if you're commingled.
In the late 90s, we commingledbecause we didn't have anything.
We were both poor collegestudents.
(30:01):
It didn't even occur to me tohave a separate account.
I'm dating myself, but you know,back when you had ATM receipts,
like the actual paper receipts,and you had to balance your
checkbook and quick and wasbarely a thing.
And it was like, oh my God, I'dspend like hours because he
wouldn't give me all of hisreceipts or he'd miss something
and I could never get the damncheckbook to balance.
I'm like, I can't do this, youdo it.
And I gave it up.
And I had mentioned that inpassing to my mother, and she's
(30:23):
like, Nicole, you never give upthe finances.
And I was like, oh, mom, it issuch a pain.
She's like, don't do it.
So I took that back, having beenin this relationship for 20 plus
years.
I knew where all the bodies wereburied.
I knew all the account numbers.
I had all of the paperwork.
And I had an account.
My mother's you need a it usedto be like your bra money or
(30:45):
your pin money, like you pin itin your bra.
She's like, You need a pin moneyaccount.
And I was like, What's a pinmoney account, Mom?
She's like, We're gonna open abank account together.
She's you just put some cash inwhen you have it.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
And she's and I'll put some cashin when I have it for you.
And I was like, Okay.
And she's like, You use it forwhatever you want.
It wasn't a divorce fund by anymeans.
It was just a in case you needit fund that was separate that
(31:08):
he had no access to.
Didn't he didn't even know aboutit?
I highly recommend having, ifyou do have your finances
co-mingled, or even if youdon't, know where the life
insurance policies are, knowwhere your his savings, because
even if, God forbid, there wasan accident and you need to have
access to that information justso that you're protected.
(31:28):
But financial protection isfirst and foremost, have an
account with a friend if youdon't have a family member that
you can't open an account with,because money is power.
You can't do anything withoutmoney.
Even if you need to get awayfrom a bad situation, you have
that money and you don't have toask permission or you don't have
to be like, oh my God, how am Igonna pay for this?
(31:50):
Having that, it made it a loteasier because I knew he wasn't
hiding anything.
And I knew that he didn't knowwhat I was doing.
So that made it a lot easier.
He's a lawyer and he did familylaw.
He didn't do that for most ofhis career, but he knew stuff.
But he wasn't vindictivefinancially in that way until we
(32:13):
got divorced.
And then it became a controlthing.
He had to ask me for all of thedocuments when we were doing the
filing because he didn't knowanything.
He didn't know the passwords, hedidn't know anything.
And I don't know if a lot of menwould be that cavalier now, but
I was very fortunate that waybecause I just knew there was
nothing he was hidingfinancially.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Aaron Ross Powell So you gained back control of the
finances, which puts you in aposition of power and
confidence.
You still have to have a lawyer,though.
What did your legalrepresentation look like?
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Trevor Burrus We ended up doing mediation.
I called it the do-it-yourselfdivorce.
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
DIY DIYD, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Yeah.
And I I don't know if I wouldrecommend it because I feel like
I left a lot on the table justbecause I wanted it to be done.
We were very amicable up untilthe finances.
People get real ugly over money.
I still wasn't working.
I ended up getting a job halfwaythrough our process.
(33:17):
And only because I needed somemore comfort to know that I'm
like, okay, I don't have to relyon whatever settlement or
whatever I got.
That helped me too.
So if you're not working, or ifyou feel like you shouldn't or
you can't work, like you need todo something just to give you
that confidence that I cansurvive this.
It's scary as shit.
(33:38):
And it was scary as shit becauseI was in a new place.
I didn't have a support system.
I was hesitant to tell myfriends back in New Jersey.
The only good thing aboutgetting divorced down here is
like I said, nobody knew us as acouple because it was either
you're with me or you don't knowme.
Um the mediation, it was nicefrom a financial perspective
(33:59):
because we didn't have a lot oflegal fees and back and forth,
but he did end up bullying meand I left a lot on the table.
Not only did he bully me, I alsobelieved him when he said he
would do stuff, certain stuff.
And I didn't get it in writing.
And it's it was too late.
(34:19):
Given the fact that I only hadone child that was considered a
minor, only my son was.
There was no child support formy daughter, other than her
college tuition, which is notnothing, and her medical bills.
But there was no sort ofclothing, food, transportation,
any of that.
So none of those bills werecovered.
(34:40):
He gave me the bare minimum formy son, and that was only till
he was 18.
So that was only like two yearsmore after it was all said and
done.
And then my son's college.
But again, we had college fundsfor the kids, so it's like we'd
already talked about doing that.
And everything that we did overthe years, we did with that in
mind that you would always dothat.
But I left a lot on the tablebecause A, I wanted it to be
(35:03):
done.
It was COVID.
I had shoulder surgery, mygrandmother passed away.
There was a lot of pressure Ifelt on myself to just be done
with this.
And you just get worn down.
It's exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
I got the same feedback from people.
You just get it done.
You get it done as fast as youcan.
I didn't have kids, thankfully.
And I can understand how thatjust the whole situation is a
toll on them.
But I didn't feel like justgetting it done was worth
sacrificing a position that Ihad.
(35:36):
So this feels like a veryimportant time to ask if you
could go back, dropped someknowledge bombs on us here.
What would you do differently?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
I would get more stuff in writing.
I would think a little bit morestrategically and long term.
I ended up getting alimonybecause he wouldn't give me a
lump sum settlement.
We separated our financialassets.
So I got half of that.
And then I got like 12 years ofalimony for half of our married
(36:08):
life.
But we had some other assetsthat we hadn't separated yet.
And he was like, oh, and whenthat does, I'll do that, X, Y,
and Z.
And I didn't get that inwriting.
And I should have.
I also should have asked forchild support longer, or at
least when the child supportruns out, have the alimony kick
(36:28):
up a little bit to cover forthat.
I'm the primary custodian, eventhough they're for tax purposes,
even though they're older.
They still live with me.
I feed them.
Let's transport them whereverthey need to go.
My son's driving my car, he's onmy insurance, he got in a car
accident.
That was his fault.
The insurance skyrocketed.
(36:48):
Well, of course, that wasn't aconsideration because it was
he's almost already paying.
My son's an athlete, so he's gota trainer, a nutritionist.
None of that is covered.
Getting more stuff in writingand thinking about what happens
after that next point.
Maybe I was a little naive.
I'm like, oh, he's gonna lookout for us.
No, they don't.
(37:10):
Don't believe.
Don't believe.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
So get it in writing and don't believe.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
Because they wanted it done as much as you do.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
Especially if there's someone there waiting in
the wings.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
He got married six months afterour divorce was finally.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Good for her.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
That's her problem now.
A frequent mantra that I say isI know what I'm getting out of.
And she has no idea what she'sgetting into.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
That is absolutely correct.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
You said this moment or this time it is scary as shit
for those reasons.
How did you get through it?
Like the toughest of days.
What tools or support orresources did you utilize to
help yourself get through it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Aaron Ross Powell Tequila.
Tequila, friendships.
And seriously, I I'm not ajournaler, but my therapist was
like, you don't have to becauseI was like, dear diary.
And you have to write this wholething.
I'm like, oh my God, I don'twant to do that.
And she's like, you don't haveto do that.
That's not journaling.
She's like, you could just writea sentence.
She's like, if you just want towrite the word asshole 15 times,
(38:21):
she's like, just do it.
It would get it out.
So I wrote my ex a letter.
I wrote two letters.
I wrote him one letter that Igave him.
I didn't want to send it.
And I'm like not big on, I don'twant anything to ever come back
to me.
So I was like, I don't know if Iwant to do that.
But he's so irresponsible thathe probably threw it away.
(38:41):
Or maybe his new wife found it.
That'd be great, actually.
So I wrote two letters.
I wrote one that I gave to him,and then I wrote one for me, and
I let everything out.
So then I did this journal and Iwas just a stream of thought.
Like I'd write a sentence hereor there.
If I was having a really hardday, I'd just put it in there.
And then she recommended when Ifelt like it to burn it.
(39:06):
Burn the journal?
Burn the journal.
She's like, rip the pages outand just burn it.
She's like, you don't have to,you don't have to read it.
You don't have to do anythingwith it.
She's like, just burn it.
I found that to be very helpful.
I didn't burn it all at once.
Some days I just felt likeburning shit.
So I would do it.
So that was really helpful.
And I've just felt a lot ofpressure with the journal.
I still have it because I didn'tburn the whole thing.
(39:28):
And every now and then I'llwrite a little something in
there.
But it's one of those thingswhere I'm like, I gotta get it
out of the house.
Because if something ever tohappen to me and my kids find
it, I don't want them to readthat because it's really, again,
I'm still trying to protect him.
I don't know why, but I don'twant them to know.
Like they see, and I'll I'vetold them, I'm like, it's been
hard and it's a struggle.
(39:49):
And my son and I had a reallyhard conversation when I was
working, and he was like, I hatethis.
I hate what dad did.
And I was like, listen, we'refine.
I'm gonna be fine, and thingsare gonna be different, but this
is okay.
Because I was working a lottrying to get myself
reestablished in a corporateAmerica career.
And I was putting in a lot ofhours.
That I thought was really goodfor them to see.
(40:10):
This was life-changing for notonly them, but for me and for me
to come out of it with a newcareer.
They see me with great friends,they see me going out and doing
stuff and traveling.
I'm like, that is so importantfor me that they see that.
They see I have boundaries withtheir dad, they see I have
(40:30):
boundaries with them, because mydaughter will say, Dad's really
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, okay, I'lllisten and feel free to vent.
But I'm not gonna give you anopinion.
That's what you have yourtherapist for.
But you can always tell mesomething, but I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna give you anythingbecause that's your dad.
But she knows.
(40:51):
She has definitely put the dotstogether.
SPEAKER_01 (40:55):
Your your children have seen you reestablish your
corporate career, surrounded byloving friends who are
supportive, um, go out and dothings on your own, probably
have a whole new level ofconfidence.
I just think about they got tosee all that.
And what would they see if youguys were still together?
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Ooh, that's a good question.
I always had a level ofindependence.
I would go out and do stuff andI would go out on girls' trips,
and he never kept me down, butthe tone in the house was
different.
Like I said, you had to walk oneggshells, and dad sometimes had
a temper or it's cranky.
(41:37):
There's none of that.
Our house is so calm.
We have fun, we'll go onvacation and it's easy.
We all get along, we love to goout to dinner.
We we have we laugh, and it'sjust a completely different
vibe.
I think if I were still married,they'd probably not see the me
(42:00):
that they're seeing now becauseI do go out a lot as and I do
have fun and I like to travel.
Sometimes I'll bring them withme, or we'll do stuff together.
And I I think they they're happyfor me.
They're happy to see that I'mnot just surviving, but I'm
enjoying middle-aged singlehood.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Yeah.
You've been through hell, and Ithink divorce crystallizes our
values when we go through orreally any traumatic experience.
What core values crystallizedfor you as a result of going
through this?
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
I think that I realize that I don't have to
settle for anything.
If I don't feel comfortable in asituation or I feel like I'm not
being valued, I know that I canmove on.
I know that I have the strengthto figure my shit out.
(43:03):
I will never be put in thatposition again.
I always knew that I was strong.
My grandmother that passed awaywas always like, I never thought
you'd be married, and I didn'tthink you'd be a good mother.
And I was like, isn't that acompliment?
Family's very harsh.
But I get what she said becauseI always was like, oh, I'm gonna
go live in Europe when I wasyounger.
I'm like, I'm gonna travel allthe world, I'm gonna have this
great career, and I never talkedabout having kids.
(43:25):
Like I always liked kids, but Inever talked about having kids,
and I never really talked abouthaving a husband.
So when I met him and I waslike, oh, this is great.
I do want to have kids and I dowant to get married.
And now I'm like back to thatwoman that I was when I was in
my 20s, where I'm like, oh, I'mnever doing this again.
Because I'm having the fun thatI should have been having 30
(43:45):
years ago.
I just knowing that I can dothis.
I'm strong and I don't have tosettle.
I'm open to new things, but I'malso like, uh take it or leave
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
You also have the confidence to say, no, not
interested.
SPEAKER_00 (44:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
So we talked about support and tools and resources.
If we get into these rapid firequestions.
Okay.
What books or articles orwritten work or whatever it
might be maybe especially spoketo you or were especially
helpful during this time?
SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
Aaron Ross Powell So I think because I didn't know
much about narcissism, wasinstantly drawn to I'm like,
what is that?
And what does that mean?
Because I'm like, I'd read somestuff, I'm like, uh, it wasn't
really our relationship.
But then I'd read other stuffand I learned about covert
narcissism, which is exactlywhat he was.
Like if you were to meet him, ohperfect husband, he's oh, I love
(44:38):
my wife, you were great, andblah, blah, blah, blah.
But then there's the hiddenstuff.
And he wasn't physicallyabusive, but definitely there
was emotional abuse.
I a hundred percent have PTSDfrom our relationship.
And I mentioned controlfinancially.
There's still that.
I always worry that the alimonyis the payments aren't going to
(44:59):
be because he refuses toautomate it.
So it's a couple days late, andit's super annoying.
So I read up on narcissism.
And one of the trips I tookright after COVID, I went to
Greece with a friend, and I wasmeeting her there.
And I met this woman on theplane, and we started talking.
And I don't know how it came up.
Maybe I said I was just recentlydivorced, and she was with her
(45:22):
husband, but he was in the podnext to us.
And I was like, Do you want toswitch?
I'm happy to switch.
And she's no.
She's like, I had enough of himand I got these books to read.
And she pulled it out, and Ihappened to see the word
narcissist.
And I was like, Oh, I'm like,You're married to a narcissist?
And she's, he's not.
And I'm reading to make surethat he never becomes one.
SPEAKER_01 (45:41):
It's called preventative maintenance.
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I'm like, I just got out of arelationship.
We talked the whole eight-hourflight about that.
And she gave me a bunch ofpodcasts to listen to and some
books to read.
So that was very helpful becauseI didn't know.
I really, I don't know how Imissed that in my, but nobody
really talked about that.
And so that was very helpful.
(46:04):
And really just taking time tothink about what I wanted.
So I have a bunch of friendsthat are into alternative
medicine, energy healing, andall sorts of woo-woo shit.
I love it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
I'm a health coach.
I love it all.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
So I did a lot of chakra clearing and I had a lot
of attachments.
One of the energy healers toldme I had attachments, so I was
all into doing all of thatstuff.
And again, I felt better.
I I don't know if it helped ornot, but mentally it helped me.
So uh th that was something elsethat I found pretty helpful.
(46:40):
Now I've gotten out of all ofthe narcissist stuff because I'm
like, it is what it is.
I know who he is.
I don't need to.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
And you know how to identify one.
Yes.
I don't believe anybody's I'vejust talked with a lot of
people, and music is a powerfulthing.
What's your divorce anthem song?
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
It's a lovely song by a woman called Martha Wayne
Wright, um, Bloody MotherfuckingAsshole.
That's the name of the song.
That's the name of the song.
unknown (47:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
I'll have to it's like bulksy.
She sounds all lovely and sweet,but if you really look at the
words and it's talking about I'mnot pretending anymore.
I can do this on my own withoutyou, and you're a bloody
motherfucking asshole.
It's a really it's a good song.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:29):
It's not very covert there.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
No, I'm really not hiding anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (47:33):
No, no.
This is an odd question.
Someone asked me, what gifts oropportunities did your divorce
bring you?
And I had to stop and thinkabout it and be like, oh, that's
interesting.
I wouldn't have had a number ofexperiences this thing not
happened.
So what gifts or opportunitiesdid your divorce bring you?
SPEAKER_00 (47:55):
I would say the greatest gift was peace because
I literally could breathe in myown home and I didn't have to
tiptoe around and I could justrelax.
Like I felt like I was in such astate of fight or flight for so
long.
I didn't have that anymore.
Like I thought I didn't likeAtlanta, but it really had
(48:16):
nothing to do with Atlanta.
It had to do with inside thehouse.
So that truly was the greatestgift.
I did mention that I love totravel and I've been doing a lot
of traveling, been to many greatplaces, and we traveled a lot as
a couple, but it's travelingwithout issue.
Oh, I want to go here?
Great, I'm going here.
Let me make sure the dog's okayand the kids are okay.
(48:38):
It's just a different level offreedom.
And again, you can't buy that.
Yeah.
The freedom is quite nice.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
I told some of my married friends, I get to do
whatever I want to do whenever Iwant to do it, however I want,
with whomever I want.
Exactly.
And they're like, oh, thatdoesn't seem so bad.
Exactly.
You've given us so manyknowledge bombs here today.
(49:07):
If you were to leave listeners,or if listeners were to walk
away with insights or aha's,what would you want them to walk
away with having listened toyour story?
SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
Um I would say trust your gut, don't discount the
intuition.
Even if you think that yourrelationship may work, I would
still always have that pin moneyaccount.
And don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid because beingalone is amazing.
(49:44):
Being alone and being in peaceis priceless.
So I have a friend that's goingthrough a situation, and I think
it's the fear that's holding herback, but she's miserable.
As an outsider looking in, Iknow what she's going through,
and it's so heartbreakingbecause I want the best for my
(50:06):
friend.
I'm so happy.
I want everybody to be thisfucking happy.
If she thought that it was gonnawork out and she was gonna be
happy, I'd be all in.
Great, go for it.
But when you know in your heartof hearts that it's not right,
it's not right, and youshouldn't force something.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
And you just want to be able to almost like take the
confidence and the wisdom thatyou have earned and put it on
someone else.
But it you almost have to gothrough it to really understand
like it's gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:41):
It's gonna be okay.
It was really hard.
And I was definitely scared.
Like I said, I'd probably stillbe there unless he took the
choice away.
Which am I grateful?
Yes.
There's no kind of I am.
I am.
Grateful that He had an affair.
SPEAKER_01 (50:59):
Because that was the out.
It became like a non-negotiableat that point.
Exactly.
No, okay, we're done here.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
I was like, well, took that one out.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (51:06):
Now we're off the table.
Yeah.
Thanks, therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (51:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:10):
I'm sorry, I did think of one final question, and
it it might be the most one ofthe most important questions of
the podcast.
Did you win that tennis matchafter the therapy session?
Hell yeah.
Fuck yes.
SPEAKER_00 (51:26):
Yes.
So glad to hear that.
And we stayed and drank at umthe tennis court for three
hours.
Nice.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
A little tennis therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (51:35):
Yes, the margaritas were strong.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
Well, Nicole, thank you so much for just being open
to sharing this.
I know it's not easy.
You have given us so much.
SPEAKER_00 (51:49):
Probably too much that I overshare.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
No, I think it's helpful for people to get a peek
inside the real stories ofwhat's going on.
And that's the mission purposeof this podcast.
So thank you so much for doingthe assignment.
SPEAKER_00 (52:02):
Yes, absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
And I think that's great thatyou're branching out and doing
this.
And all the best to you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Thanks for listening to Bitter or Better, where we
turn heartbreak into healing andsurvival into strength.
As Brene Brown says,vulnerability is the last thing
we want to show, but the firstthing we look for in others.
That's what this is all about.
Real people showing up, sharingtheir stories, and reminding the
rest of us that we're not alone.
(52:31):
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with someone who
might need to hear it too.
And remember, you have a choicebetter or better.
See you next time for more realstories, real people, and real
resilience.
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