February 20, 2025 • 35 mins
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Ever felt like you had to work twice as hard just to be seen as competent?
If you’re a woman, particularly a woman of color in consulting, chances are you’ve encountered the trust gap. This gap represents the distance between your genuine expertise and how others view it. When this gap exists, it's not merely frustrating; it’s deeply rooted in systemic bias.
In this episode, we’ll delve into how bias distorts perceptions of trust and competence and, more importantly, how to bridge that gap without losing ourselves in the process.
While you can’t control others’ biases, you can manage how you navigate and challenge them and reshape the narrative. Press play and discover how to transform the trust gap into a bridge to lasting credibility and respect.
***Subscribe and share this episode to inspire others to join this supportive and transformative conversation.***
For more information, visit https://excelatconsulting.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, welcome to the Black Girls Consult Tube
podcast.
I'm your host, dr AngelinaDavis, and today we're going to
be talking about the trust gapand if you're wondering what
this is, we've been in a seriesof episodes focused on how you
build trust as a consultant, andthe trust gap is important
(00:21):
because this is that moment whenyou walk into a room as the
expert but before you even cansay a word, you can feel a lot
of doubt in the air.
You can literally cut throughit and oftentimes the unspoken
question is does she really knowwhat she's talking about?
Is she really supposed to behere?
(00:43):
You know, I'll never forgetwhen I first felt that shift in
energy.
It is real and it happened.
Early in my career.
I took over a consultingengagement after my mentor, who
was an older cisgender whitemale, landed the contracts and
the client was completelycomfortable with him.
They could see eye to eye.
(01:04):
As a matter of fact, they wouldgo golfing a lot together.
I always talk about how,traditionally, a lot of business
was won on the golf course.
That is real and it did happen.
And there was an instance whereI could feel that the
connection between me and him,the client, was not there.
(01:26):
There was this unspoken senseof distrust that was there and
that was very much unlike theequality that was sensed between
my mentor and the client,because they had been colleagues
, they had been friends, theyhad interacted with each other
(01:47):
on a more intimate level.
But the moment I stepped in asa lead, the tone completely
changed.
It was no longer excitementabout the project and where we
were going.
As a Black woman now at thehelm of everything, I could feel
the discomfort of me beingthere and my expertise from the
(02:08):
start was being questioned.
How was it being questioned?
It wasn't direct.
Of course, there were a lot ofsubtle things that happened, but
my strategies were often metwith a lot of skepticisms, a lot
of well, I don't know if we cando it that way, or I'm not
exactly sure what you're tryingto explain.
(02:29):
I don't know if I understandwhat you're talking about, and
at first I thought it was me.
I thought that I was notspeaking correctly, that I was
not saying things clearly enough, I had not mapped out a plan
that was going to work in theirinstance and I just took all the
blame and ownership for that.
But over time I realized thatthis was no longer just a
(02:52):
problem I had.
It was as if I had to provemyself in ways that I won't say
that I had not had to do before,but I had not had to do in a
long time in that role.
But it was where I was at atthe time and I had to learn how
to navigate through it.
So, for me, I focused on a lotof different little strategies
(03:18):
that helped me rebuild aconnection or actually build one
, I would say, from the startand to move the project forward.
But I had to close what was atrust gap, because in that
moment there was a gap betweenme and that client and the work
that we were doing together.
And if I was unable to closethat trust gap, I'll be honest,
(03:42):
I don't think that theengagement would have lasted.
And, as a matter of fact,there's another story that we'll
talk about one day about howall these things panned out in
the long run.
But for the work that needed tobe done, I had to make it work.
As a consultant, I needed toknow how to navigate these
difficult situations.
Even if I didn't like it, evenif I didn't feel like it was my
fault, I needed to show up inthat space, own it, change it
(04:06):
and move us forward so that allcentered around closing this gap
that existed.
It's the literal space betweenwhere I was and where others
perceived me to be, to be.
(04:30):
So it was the gap betweenreality and perception, and so
closing that gap was somethingthat was necessary, but also I
will be honest with you itwasn't always easy, especially
when you have systemic biasinvolved.
So, the truth is, this is notunique to me, and that's why I
want to have this episode inthis conversation, because, as
women, especially women of colorand other marginalized
(04:51):
communities, we need to closethis gap and we need to know how
to do it effectively and feelas if we are able to stand in
our complete confidence whenwe're working with clients.
Before we dive in deeper, I dowant to ask you that, if you've
enjoyed any of the episodes onthis podcast, or if you are
enjoying this episode as youtune in, make sure you leave a
(05:12):
five-star review on ApplePodcasts or your rating on
Spotify.
It helps us to reach morepeople and to get this
information out there.
I greatly appreciate it.
Now let's get started.
So, according to research onsystemic bias and trust dynamics
, trust isn't just built on yourskills or your experience?
(05:33):
We want to think that it is,but there are a lot of factors
that weigh into whether or notsomeone trusts you and is
heavily influenced by culturalnarratives and unconscious
biases.
Bias is often invisible to theperson that holds them.
It is a subjective belief, away of thinking, and this way of
(05:57):
thinking is typically shaped bysocietal norms or stereotypes
and the various power dynamicsthat may be at play.
So, when they directly impactus, it has the ability to keep
us from being seen astrustworthy, as competent or as
(06:19):
leadership material, although weare, because, remember, this
bias that exists, influences thereality.
So the reality is you'retrustworthy, you're competent
and you're more than capable ofbeing a leader.
However, this invisible framingor context that has been driven
(06:42):
by stereotypes and societalnorms, those things cloud the
picture and, in consulting, thiscreates a huge hurdle for us as
women, especially women ofcolor.
While others might get thebenefit of the doubt, we're
often forced to prove ourselvesagain and again and again, just
(07:06):
to be seen as competent, not toeven be seen as exceptional,
just competent.
So here's a perspective shiftthat I want to offer today.
You can't control otherpeople's bias.
You can't control that, but youcan control how you navigate it
(07:27):
, challenge it and then flip thenarrative, and that's what I
want us to focus on.
I'm not focused on changingwhat other people believe.
What I'm focused on is how wetake those misguided, is how we
take those misguided skewedbeliefs, the bias that exists,
(07:47):
and navigate it effectively toserve our purpose.
And that includes challengingit and flipping the narrative so
that we can win the businessthat we need and we can build
the businesses that we want.
So we're gonna unpack a lot ofstuff.
We're gonna talk about howsystemic bias skews perceptions
of trust and competence and somepractical strategies that will
(08:09):
help you challenge this biaswhile staying true to yourself,
and then also the role that dataand results and relationships
can actually play to help usbridge the trust gap.
You know, really, if we're ableto do this, I think that you
will feel the weight of needingto overperform just to be seen.
(08:29):
I think you'll feel that meltaway a little bit, and that is
my hope for this conversation.
I want it to make you feel moreempowered and ready to take on
the big business that's comingyour way, because the bigger and
bigger you play, you're goingto run into scenarios just like
(08:49):
this.
They may have a different slantdepending upon the scenario,
who's involved, but if you are awoman, if you are a person of
color, if you're someone that'spart of the LGBTQIA plus
community, if you are someonewho has been marginalized nine
times out of 10, you're going toexperience the trust gap, and
(09:12):
this is how you navigate it.
So one of the first things thatI want us to tackle is
understanding what the trust gapis and why it exists.
It's not just about one badclient, and I think that many
times we believe that one badclient experience is just a
(09:35):
fluke, that this is just anexample of a single awkward
moment or meeting that we hadand honestly, I wish that was
the case, but it typically isnot.
It is systemic and actuallyresearch shows that trust is
built on three core drivers.
We talked about this in aprevious episode, but if you
(09:57):
look at the core drivers,they're authenticity, logic and
empathy.
Authenticity just pretty muchsays I believe you are who you
are, who you say you are.
Logic is I believe you can dowhat you say that you do, and
then empathy is all about Ibelieve you care about me and my
success.
So that is what typicallybuilds trust, and we talked a
(10:21):
little bit about this.
But here's the issue Bias iswhat distorts those drivers.
So, instead of authenticity, asI believe you are who you say
you are when you walk into theroom, there is this unconscious
bias that exists andsubconsciously it shifts
(10:44):
authenticity to be does shereally belong here?
It's going to skew logic tohave the person think is she
really as skilled as she claims?
Did she go to a good school?
Can she really do the work?
And then, in terms of empathy,instead of it being about
(11:07):
believing that you care aboutthem and their success is more
so.
You know, I don't.
I don't know if you understandwhere I'm coming from.
I don't know if you canunderstand my needs.
I'm different than you.
And this is what creates thattrust wobble, that instability
that exists in the setting, thatcauses people to question
(11:30):
credibility.
And for women, especially inwomen of color, the trust wobble
starts before we even speak.
So it's often there and wetalked about how we can
influence that trust wobble andin our previous episode, we
talked about how we can dothings that break down the
authenticity piece or the logicor the empathy, if we're not
(11:52):
being genuine, how we can causethis imbalance that exists, that
makes somebody question us interms of whether or not they can
trust us.
But then also there areinstances and cases where we
don't do anything to break downthat trust, and the systemic
bias actually does it.
It primes people to see us asthe quote-unquote other, meaning
(12:18):
that it makes it harder forthem to perceive us as being
authentic or helpful or likethem.
It leads people to doubt ourcompetence.
That forces us to over-explainand to feel like we always have
to prove our worth, and itcauses clients and colleagues to
(12:40):
question our ability to even beable to relate to them.
And what I've always thought wasthe craziest part of all of
this is that, as themarginalized person in the
situation, as the person that'sunderrepresented in the
situation, we're actually theones that typically you would
think would have these questions, but instead we're seen as the
(13:00):
other, or the outsider, or theone that can't be trusted, or
the one that is different.
So it's all just a veryinteresting dynamic when you
really think about it.
But the empowering part is thatwhen you can realize that this
(13:21):
wobble that's occurring, thisbreakdown in trust that has
happened, when you can recognizethat number one is happening
but then, two, it is nothappening because of you, then
you can strategically strengthenthat weak point.
You can actually start to dothings that help to bridge the
trust gap, because then you'reno longer focused on what you're
(13:45):
doing or saying or bringing tothe table because, like I stated
before, in this instance thisis not caused by you.
This is being driven bydistortions, by the bias that
exists, by the subjectivefeelings and thoughts that exist
around you, based onstereotypes and other mistruths.
(14:07):
So when you can recognize that,then that gives you the power
to change it.
So when we talk about navigatingthis bias, sometimes it can
feel exhausting.
I know that.
I've talked to clients beforeand I've even said this myself.
It can feel overwhelming toconstantly have to prove
(14:33):
yourself or to fight back whenyou feel like you're doing all
that you can do to do things theright way, but you're
consistently being misread orunderestimated and the instinct
for many of us is to just stoptrying to do things differently
(14:54):
into code switch, which I alwayslike to say is just a form of
diluting yourself down,softening your voice, fitting in
, shaping yourself to be likethe others in the room so that
you fit in, so that you can beaccepted, so that you push
against these thoughts right,these thoughts of whether or not
you belong here, whether or notyou're like us.
(15:15):
We begin to mold ourselves tobe like the others who are
discrediting our expertisebefore we even speak.
But the hard truth is thatevery time we shrink down to fit
someone else's inaccurate lensof who we are and this is hard
(15:36):
for me to to say, it took me awhile to even understand and own
up to this, but it is truewhenever we do this, whenever we
shrink down to fit someoneelse's view of us, we reinforce
the bias, right?
We reinforce it because whatwe're saying is I am changing to
(15:57):
fit the view and perceptionthat you have of what I should
be instead of who I am, andtherefore you're giving validity
to their beliefs.
And I know this is how we'vebeen trained to function, in
corporate especially.
I always like to talk aboutcorporate trauma and corporate
(16:19):
conditioning.
So much of what we have learnedover the years working in
corporate environments is partof what keeps us stuck when we
move into this lane ofentrepreneurship, because then
we begin to do all of the thingsto conform when in
entrepreneurship and buildingyour business, you're doing the
things, or should be doing thethings, to conform, when in
entrepreneurship and buildingyour business, you're doing the
(16:40):
things, or should be doing thethings, to stand out.
So we work against our goalswhen we begin to give our power
back to the people who see us asoutsiders.
So how do you fully show up asyourself while navigating these
dynamics?
I know you're probably thinkingI hear you, dr Angela.
Angela, I hear what you'resaying, but I need to get this
(17:03):
business.
I don't know how else tonavigate these rooms.
This worked for me in mycorporate career and so I think
that it will work for me now.
But what I will push you toconsider is that, instead of
reinforcing that viewpoint thatthey have, try staying objective
(17:24):
.
Let's let the facts do the work.
You know, one of the mostpowerful strategies I teach is
how to remain objective inbiased spaces, because bias is
subjective.
So you're dealing with feelings, you're dealing with
perceptions and unconsciousnarratives.
So the more you can ground yourstrategy, your recommendations,
(17:48):
your insights, in data, inresearch and results, the harder
it is for someone to completelydismiss you based on these
biased assumptions.
You know, in my earlier careerstory.
I didn't fight the client'sbias head on.
I wasn't trying to get them tosee me differently, but what I
(18:09):
was going to do is let that datado the work for me.
I was going to point outeverything that was going wrong
in their organization, in thecurrent strategies and the
processes and the workflows thatthey currently had, and I was
going to focus on outcomes,reference research and just
really build a case that, in allhonesty, if they wanted to get
(18:31):
to their outcome which they didthey'd already paid the money,
had the contract needed to moveforward, money, had the contract
needed to move forward.
Then what I was saying becameundeniable.
So when you use data andresearch in meetings, you can
also activate this peer pressureeffect.
So this is actually an addedbonus in addition to just
(18:55):
letting the data work for you.
The thing is that other peoplethat are in that room with them
that may be working on thatproject with you, or maybe
they're someone that's workingunder that individual or working
above the individual, whoeverit may be at the table.
Those people may notnecessarily hold the same bias.
They may have a different view.
Their subjective view may notbe as negative or negative at
(19:18):
all.
Maybe they think funnily ofyour expertise and your presence
and the thing about you beingable to remain objective at
those times and focusing on thedata, the research and the
results, is that those who cansee what's happening, the other
people in the room that canunderstand the logic and what
(19:39):
you're saying and what you'redoing, they are going to make it
harder for that biasedindividual to keep pushing back
without losing some of thecredibility themselves that they
have, because after a while,this is going to sound, it's
going to sound crazy for someoneto be arguing against facts and
data.
Right, so that peer pressureeffect is real and that just
(20:00):
giving you a pro tip.
Use it to your advantage,because when you get other
people on your team andsupporting what you're saying,
you're just adding fuel to yourfire.
So, first things first, tonavigate all of this, remain
objective.
Let's let the facts do the work.
Now.
The second thing is that Idon't want you to run from
(20:23):
calling out bias and otherstereotypes and mistruths that
may exist, but the one thing wedo want to do, because of the
nature of the business thatwe're doing, is that we wanna
call it out without callingsomeone out.
I hope you caught that you wantto call the bias out without
(20:48):
calling the person out.
Now listen, if it's the weekendand you're in the streets and
whatnot, hey, you can call thebias out, the person out and
whoever else out.
But in this setting, I'll behonest that you know, I'm one
that feels as if you can callthe bias out without calling
someone out and still it be apowerful approach.
(21:11):
And there are a number of waysthat you can do this.
If you sense that resistancethat you're getting, the
pushback that you're getting, isrooted in a sense of bias or a
perception that somehow you arenot good enough to do the work,
or just whatever beliefs thatthe person may have, it is OK to
(21:32):
address it indirectly, withoutturning the room into a
battlefield.
And what this looks like isliterally just saying you know,
hey, I know this approach mayseem unconventional and I see
that you have discomfort withthis approach.
However, here's why it'sworking in similar organization
(21:52):
and here's what the data shows.
So you're letting the personknow that I recognize that you
have resistance to what I'msaying and although you have
this resistance, I'm telling youthat it has worked before and
it's going to work again.
Skepticism right, becauseoftentimes people push back not
(22:19):
just because they disagree withwhat's being said, but they also
disagree with who said it.
So you're able to push backwithout creating more conflict.
And this is very beneficial,especially if you're in a larger
meeting with a group ofindividuals where you have to be
very careful how you navigatethe conversation right and keep
(22:43):
it on a positive note, movingforward, so that it does not go
off the rails and it shifts thefocus back, in all honesty, back
to the objective facts, back tologic, back to results.
You're acknowledging that theskepticism exists.
You're recentering yourauthority in the conversation,
(23:05):
so you're taking it back to.
I recognize you have a problem,but I am telling you the
solution and I'm going to tellyou how it's worked for other
people.
So that is really powerful.
Call it out without callingsomeone out.
And then what I would say is thenext big thing is to reclaim
(23:30):
your control over code switching.
I want us to reclaim controlover it because I myself have
been guilty of it.
I think anyone has been in thecorporate environment and been a
part of a marginalized group,especially if you're a black
female in the work environment.
You have code switched beforebut, unlike your work, your nine
(23:54):
to five, where you had toanswer to somebody else in your
business.
You don't need to be codeswitching any longer Now.
It's your choice whether or notyou do so, but the pressure to
code switch really does increasewhen we're around people who
view us as somehow beinginaccurate or what we're doing
(24:16):
is being insufficient, and wecan either support their
misguided beliefs, as I saidbefore, or we can reclaim our
control, and what I want you tofeel empowered to do is to
reclaim your control and definewho you are on your own terms.
(24:36):
I'm not saying that this isalways easy, but I do honestly
feel like it's necessary, andone of the ways that I have
found to do this is to just makesure that I clarify for
everyone that's listeningexactly what I said, what I
(25:01):
meant and why I said what I said.
So not only am I providing theinformation, but I'm providing
context for it, and by providingthat context for it and
speaking clearly and standing inwhat you have already stated,
meaning owning it, that exerts alevel of power in the
(25:26):
conversation that really doesprevent others from challenging
you in the future.
I think you will be shocked ifyou were to embrace that fully,
because it is time for you tochange the narrative, and not
code switching is going to helpyou actually do that.
(25:49):
Now the last piece to this thatwe talked about, you know we
first need to recognize thatthere is a trust gap that exists
.
Then we need to figure out howto navigate these dynamics by
staying objective and callingout bias when we see it and
reclaiming our control overco-switching.
Then we need to focus onturning the trust gap into a
(26:12):
bridge or bridging it over, andreally that's all about flipping
the script.
In order for us to bridge thisgap, we need to strengthen our
authority and our reputation,because when we're able to
strengthen our authority and ourreputation, that is going to
(26:33):
supersede any interaction thatwe have with people moving
forward.
So that's a way to begin tocombat some of these misguided
beliefs before we even get intoconversation and meet those who
are going to work with.
So how do we do this Now?
The first thing is and goingback to data, because data is
(26:53):
just like a big player when itcomes to navigating and
overcoming bias is that you wantto use data as your superpower.
The reality is although now, intoday's society, I feel like we
deal with alternative facts andwhatnot.
We know that that's not reallya thing, but we have to deal
with it.
But facts are hard to arguewith the more you can tie your
(27:19):
recommendations and yourinsights and your strategies to
facts and clear outcomes, whenyou can tie it to specifically I
had when I was early in mycareer as a consultant when you
(27:41):
can focus on the numbers, thethings that actually show you
what is happening, the facts,the results, the outcomes the
more you sidestep the subjectivebias, because the facts are
what's going to drive others interms of their actions.
So don't wait to be asked forproof.
(28:03):
I want you to collect this datafor yourself.
I want you to be up front inevery proposal, meeting,
presentation.
I want you to reiterate it overand over again Whatever changes
that you have made, results youhave driven, don't just say it
one time, don't just put it inone report, don't just throw it
up on one slide.
This needs to be communicatedover and over and over again,
(28:28):
because those that you work withwhen you're working in a
situation where you are facingthis level of bias or scrutiny,
it is going to be those factsthat help you to push further
and that will form yourreputation, which we want to be
positive.
Now the second thing is thatwhen you're able to build
stronger relationships and thisgets back to the authenticity
(28:52):
and empathy piece the bias,remember, thrives in distance.
When someone doesn't feel likethey're close to you, when they
feel like you're an outsider,it's easier for them to hold
these misguided beliefs.
But when they know you, whenthey are in greater proximity to
(29:13):
you, it gets a lot harder.
Now I'm not saying that itcompletely goes away For some
individuals it won't.
But the more that you can getpersonal and find common ground
with clients, the better.
And what I always like to tellthe clients I work with is that
if you're walking into a roomand this is going to happen a
(29:33):
lot as a woman and consultant,especially when you get into
working with higher C-suite youknow individuals and corporate
spaces and whatnot, just keepingin mind that women only make up
less than 25% of thoseindividuals.
And then you get to black womenI think we're less than 5% or
4% You're not going tonecessarily walk into a room
(29:53):
where there's a lot ofcommonality.
So you want to begin to lookfor common ground with those
clients and this goes back tothat preparation and thinking
about how you're going toapproach your meeting.
Finding those elements that arein common is going to help you
talk and have a conversationthat humanizes the approach,
(30:18):
sharing stories, whether they'repersonal or professional that
all helps you build trustthrough connection and not just
competence.
And the closer people feel toyou, the harder it is for those
biases to stick.
It's hard, they have to letsome of them go, unless they're
(30:38):
just I don't know heck bent orhell bent on keeping them.
It's going to be hard to notlet those things go.
So the more you can build thoseconnections, the better.
And then once their reputationis established, like those
results that we were talkingabout you're getting, once
(30:59):
you're building your reputationon facts, on results, on
outcomes, on positiveinteractions and relationships,
your reputation will be one ofthe most effective long-term
strategies that you can have.
Because if clients andcolleagues hear about you in a
good way before they meet youand what they hear is positive
(31:22):
and results-driven and rooted incredibility and from a good
person, that begins to pre-frametheir perception of you, it's
going to change the way thatthey view you and that works to
your advantage.
So you got to get visible,whether it is speaking on panels
(31:43):
or sharing your insights onLinkedIn or writing thought
leadership pieces.
You need to get active, sharingwhat you know, getting visible,
building this extra layer oftrust, because those are the
things that are going to helpyou break down this wall and
bridge this trust gap.
(32:03):
So, listen, navigating bias andbridging the trust gap is not
easy.
It's not easy.
I hate that.
It's something that we have todo, but it's absolutely possible
.
But it's absolutely possibleand you have the power to take
(32:26):
this bias that you represent ispresent and that's impacting the
perception of your work, andstrategically strengthen the
trust drivers that you knowcreates a better relationship.
And then you end up flipping anarrative and defining the
entire engagement you have withthat client on your terms.
It is amazing how well this canwork for you and into your
(32:48):
advantage.
And, like I said, as you startworking with bigger clients,
bigger contracts, biggercorporations and enterprises
because I'm naming it andclaiming it now as you do that
you're going to run into thisfrom time to time it's a reality
of our society, at least forright now.
So I want to challenge you thisweek to start thinking about
(33:13):
how you can use data andstorytelling and relationship
building in your business.
Now, to bridge some of thesetrust gaps that you may feel
Whenever you walk into that roomwith someone that you feel may
question why you're there or mayhave some skepticism as to
whether or not you can do thework.
(33:33):
I want you to be confidentenough to stand in that space
and rely on facts, rely on yourhistory of work that you've done
and even if you're juststarting out, you have history
because nine times out of 10,you are working consulting in a
space where you have worked fora number of years, even decades.
You have results.
(33:53):
You have something to stand on.
Speak to that.
Claim it, speak bold.
Something to stand on.
Speak to that.
Claim it, speak boldly, beobjective, stick with facts and
find those areas of connection.
All of these things are goingto work in your favor.
I promise it will.
So if this episode resonatedwith you and you enjoyed it,
(34:21):
then share with a friend, letsomeone know about it and how
it's been helpful to you.
But then also, I want to knowhow you feel about bias in your
space and how you get over theskepticism and how you navigate
these trust gaps that may exist.
Let me know, send me a DM onInstagram or LinkedIn at Dr
(34:43):
Angelina Davis, and I want tojust hear from you about how you
were starting to bridge thistrust gap.
Is this something that you'refacing often?
Have you tried some of thesethings?
Have they worked?
Have they not worked?
I'd love to know.
So definitely reach out to me,and I hope that this will help
you feel more prepared andempowered to take on any client
(35:08):
that comes your way.
I don't want you to questionthe work that you're doing or
your ability to show up at thehighest levels as the consultant
you meant to be.
All right, so until next time,keep building trust and always
(35:29):
claim your authority.
All right, guys, talk to yousoon.
Bye.
Hello, welcome to the Black Girls Consult Tube
podcast.
I'm your host, dr AngelinaDavis, and today we're going to
be talking about the trust gapand if you're wondering what
this is, we've been in a seriesof episodes focused on how you
build trust as a consultant, andthe trust gap is important
(00:21):
because this is that moment whenyou walk into a room as the
expert but before you even cansay a word, you can feel a lot
of doubt in the air.
You can literally cut throughit and oftentimes the unspoken
question is does she really knowwhat she's talking about?
Is she really supposed to behere?
(00:43):
You know, I'll never forgetwhen I first felt that shift in
energy.
It is real and it happened.
Early in my career.
I took over a consultingengagement after my mentor, who
was an older cisgender whitemale, landed the contracts and
the client was completelycomfortable with him.
They could see eye to eye.
(01:04):
As a matter of fact, they wouldgo golfing a lot together.
I always talk about how,traditionally, a lot of business
was won on the golf course.
That is real and it did happen.
And there was an instance whereI could feel that the
connection between me and him,the client, was not there.
(01:26):
There was this unspoken senseof distrust that was there and
that was very much unlike theequality that was sensed between
my mentor and the client,because they had been colleagues
, they had been friends, theyhad interacted with each other
(01:47):
on a more intimate level.
But the moment I stepped in asa lead, the tone completely
changed.
It was no longer excitementabout the project and where we
were going.
As a Black woman now at thehelm of everything, I could feel
the discomfort of me beingthere and my expertise from the
(02:08):
start was being questioned.
How was it being questioned?
It wasn't direct.
Of course, there were a lot ofsubtle things that happened, but
my strategies were often metwith a lot of skepticisms, a lot
of well, I don't know if we cando it that way, or I'm not
exactly sure what you're tryingto explain.
(02:29):
I don't know if I understandwhat you're talking about, and
at first I thought it was me.
I thought that I was notspeaking correctly, that I was
not saying things clearly enough, I had not mapped out a plan
that was going to work in theirinstance and I just took all the
blame and ownership for that.
But over time I realized thatthis was no longer just a
(02:52):
problem I had.
It was as if I had to provemyself in ways that I won't say
that I had not had to do before,but I had not had to do in a
long time in that role.
But it was where I was at atthe time and I had to learn how
to navigate through it.
So, for me, I focused on a lotof different little strategies
(03:18):
that helped me rebuild aconnection or actually build one
, I would say, from the startand to move the project forward.
But I had to close what was atrust gap, because in that
moment there was a gap betweenme and that client and the work
that we were doing together.
And if I was unable to closethat trust gap, I'll be honest,
(03:42):
I don't think that theengagement would have lasted.
And, as a matter of fact,there's another story that we'll
talk about one day about howall these things panned out in
the long run.
But for the work that needed tobe done, I had to make it work.
As a consultant, I needed toknow how to navigate these
difficult situations.
Even if I didn't like it, evenif I didn't feel like it was my
fault, I needed to show up inthat space, own it, change it
(04:06):
and move us forward so that allcentered around closing this gap
that existed.
It's the literal space betweenwhere I was and where others
perceived me to be, to be.
(04:30):
So it was the gap betweenreality and perception, and so
closing that gap was somethingthat was necessary, but also I
will be honest with you itwasn't always easy, especially
when you have systemic biasinvolved.
So, the truth is, this is notunique to me, and that's why I
want to have this episode inthis conversation, because, as
women, especially women of colorand other marginalized
(04:51):
communities, we need to closethis gap and we need to know how
to do it effectively and feelas if we are able to stand in
our complete confidence whenwe're working with clients.
Before we dive in deeper, I dowant to ask you that, if you've
enjoyed any of the episodes onthis podcast, or if you are
enjoying this episode as youtune in, make sure you leave a
(05:12):
five-star review on ApplePodcasts or your rating on
Spotify.
It helps us to reach morepeople and to get this
information out there.
I greatly appreciate it.
Now let's get started.
So, according to research onsystemic bias and trust dynamics
, trust isn't just built on yourskills or your experience?
(05:33):
We want to think that it is,but there are a lot of factors
that weigh into whether or notsomeone trusts you and is
heavily influenced by culturalnarratives and unconscious
biases.
Bias is often invisible to theperson that holds them.
It is a subjective belief, away of thinking, and this way of
(05:57):
thinking is typically shaped bysocietal norms or stereotypes
and the various power dynamicsthat may be at play.
So, when they directly impactus, it has the ability to keep
us from being seen astrustworthy, as competent or as
(06:19):
leadership material, although weare, because, remember, this
bias that exists, influences thereality.
So the reality is you'retrustworthy, you're competent
and you're more than capable ofbeing a leader.
However, this invisible framingor context that has been driven
(06:42):
by stereotypes and societalnorms, those things cloud the
picture and, in consulting, thiscreates a huge hurdle for us as
women, especially women ofcolor.
While others might get thebenefit of the doubt, we're
often forced to prove ourselvesagain and again and again, just
(07:06):
to be seen as competent, not toeven be seen as exceptional,
just competent.
So here's a perspective shiftthat I want to offer today.
You can't control otherpeople's bias.
You can't control that, but youcan control how you navigate it
(07:27):
, challenge it and then flip thenarrative, and that's what I
want us to focus on.
I'm not focused on changingwhat other people believe.
What I'm focused on is how wetake those misguided, is how we
take those misguided skewedbeliefs, the bias that exists,
(07:47):
and navigate it effectively toserve our purpose.
And that includes challengingit and flipping the narrative so
that we can win the businessthat we need and we can build
the businesses that we want.
So we're gonna unpack a lot ofstuff.
We're gonna talk about howsystemic bias skews perceptions
of trust and competence and somepractical strategies that will
(08:09):
help you challenge this biaswhile staying true to yourself,
and then also the role that dataand results and relationships
can actually play to help usbridge the trust gap.
You know, really, if we're ableto do this, I think that you
will feel the weight of needingto overperform just to be seen.
(08:29):
I think you'll feel that meltaway a little bit, and that is
my hope for this conversation.
I want it to make you feel moreempowered and ready to take on
the big business that's comingyour way, because the bigger and
bigger you play, you're goingto run into scenarios just like
(08:49):
this.
They may have a different slantdepending upon the scenario,
who's involved, but if you are awoman, if you are a person of
color, if you're someone that'spart of the LGBTQIA plus
community, if you are someonewho has been marginalized nine
times out of 10, you're going toexperience the trust gap, and
(09:12):
this is how you navigate it.
So one of the first things thatI want us to tackle is
understanding what the trust gapis and why it exists.
It's not just about one badclient, and I think that many
times we believe that one badclient experience is just a
(09:35):
fluke, that this is just anexample of a single awkward
moment or meeting that we hadand honestly, I wish that was
the case, but it typically isnot.
It is systemic and actuallyresearch shows that trust is
built on three core drivers.
We talked about this in aprevious episode, but if you
(09:57):
look at the core drivers,they're authenticity, logic and
empathy.
Authenticity just pretty muchsays I believe you are who you
are, who you say you are.
Logic is I believe you can dowhat you say that you do, and
then empathy is all about Ibelieve you care about me and my
success.
So that is what typicallybuilds trust, and we talked a
(10:21):
little bit about this.
But here's the issue Bias iswhat distorts those drivers.
So, instead of authenticity, asI believe you are who you say
you are when you walk into theroom, there is this unconscious
bias that exists andsubconsciously it shifts
(10:44):
authenticity to be does shereally belong here?
It's going to skew logic tohave the person think is she
really as skilled as she claims?
Did she go to a good school?
Can she really do the work?
And then, in terms of empathy,instead of it being about
(11:07):
believing that you care aboutthem and their success is more
so.
You know, I don't.
I don't know if you understandwhere I'm coming from.
I don't know if you canunderstand my needs.
I'm different than you.
And this is what creates thattrust wobble, that instability
that exists in the setting, thatcauses people to question
(11:30):
credibility.
And for women, especially inwomen of color, the trust wobble
starts before we even speak.
So it's often there and wetalked about how we can
influence that trust wobble andin our previous episode, we
talked about how we can dothings that break down the
authenticity piece or the logicor the empathy, if we're not
(11:52):
being genuine, how we can causethis imbalance that exists, that
makes somebody question us interms of whether or not they can
trust us.
But then also there areinstances and cases where we
don't do anything to break downthat trust, and the systemic
bias actually does it.
It primes people to see us asthe quote-unquote other, meaning
(12:18):
that it makes it harder forthem to perceive us as being
authentic or helpful or likethem.
It leads people to doubt ourcompetence.
That forces us to over-explainand to feel like we always have
to prove our worth, and itcauses clients and colleagues to
(12:40):
question our ability to even beable to relate to them.
And what I've always thought wasthe craziest part of all of
this is that, as themarginalized person in the
situation, as the person that'sunderrepresented in the
situation, we're actually theones that typically you would
think would have these questions, but instead we're seen as the
(13:00):
other, or the outsider, or theone that can't be trusted, or
the one that is different.
So it's all just a veryinteresting dynamic when you
really think about it.
But the empowering part is thatwhen you can realize that this
(13:21):
wobble that's occurring, thisbreakdown in trust that has
happened, when you can recognizethat number one is happening
but then, two, it is nothappening because of you, then
you can strategically strengthenthat weak point.
You can actually start to dothings that help to bridge the
trust gap, because then you'reno longer focused on what you're
(13:45):
doing or saying or bringing tothe table because, like I stated
before, in this instance thisis not caused by you.
This is being driven bydistortions, by the bias that
exists, by the subjectivefeelings and thoughts that exist
around you, based onstereotypes and other mistruths.
(14:07):
So when you can recognize that,then that gives you the power
to change it.
So when we talk about navigatingthis bias, sometimes it can
feel exhausting.
I know that.
I've talked to clients beforeand I've even said this myself.
It can feel overwhelming toconstantly have to prove
(14:33):
yourself or to fight back whenyou feel like you're doing all
that you can do to do things theright way, but you're
consistently being misread orunderestimated and the instinct
for many of us is to just stoptrying to do things differently
(14:54):
into code switch, which I alwayslike to say is just a form of
diluting yourself down,softening your voice, fitting in
, shaping yourself to be likethe others in the room so that
you fit in, so that you can beaccepted, so that you push
against these thoughts right,these thoughts of whether or not
you belong here, whether or notyou're like us.
(15:15):
We begin to mold ourselves tobe like the others who are
discrediting our expertisebefore we even speak.
But the hard truth is thatevery time we shrink down to fit
someone else's inaccurate lensof who we are and this is hard
(15:36):
for me to to say, it took me awhile to even understand and own
up to this, but it is truewhenever we do this, whenever we
shrink down to fit someoneelse's view of us, we reinforce
the bias, right?
We reinforce it because whatwe're saying is I am changing to
(15:57):
fit the view and perceptionthat you have of what I should
be instead of who I am, andtherefore you're giving validity
to their beliefs.
And I know this is how we'vebeen trained to function, in
corporate especially.
I always like to talk aboutcorporate trauma and corporate
(16:19):
conditioning.
So much of what we have learnedover the years working in
corporate environments is partof what keeps us stuck when we
move into this lane ofentrepreneurship, because then
we begin to do all of the thingsto conform when in
entrepreneurship and buildingyour business, you're doing the
things, or should be doing thethings, to conform, when in
entrepreneurship and buildingyour business, you're doing the
(16:40):
things, or should be doing thethings, to stand out.
So we work against our goalswhen we begin to give our power
back to the people who see us asoutsiders.
So how do you fully show up asyourself while navigating these
dynamics?
I know you're probably thinkingI hear you, dr Angela.
Angela, I hear what you'resaying, but I need to get this
(17:03):
business.
I don't know how else tonavigate these rooms.
This worked for me in mycorporate career and so I think
that it will work for me now.
But what I will push you toconsider is that, instead of
reinforcing that viewpoint thatthey have, try staying objective
(17:24):
.
Let's let the facts do the work.
You know, one of the mostpowerful strategies I teach is
how to remain objective inbiased spaces, because bias is
subjective.
So you're dealing with feelings, you're dealing with
perceptions and unconsciousnarratives.
So the more you can ground yourstrategy, your recommendations,
(17:48):
your insights, in data, inresearch and results, the harder
it is for someone to completelydismiss you based on these
biased assumptions.
You know, in my earlier careerstory.
I didn't fight the client'sbias head on.
I wasn't trying to get them tosee me differently, but what I
(18:09):
was going to do is let that datado the work for me.
I was going to point outeverything that was going wrong
in their organization, in thecurrent strategies and the
processes and the workflows thatthey currently had, and I was
going to focus on outcomes,reference research and just
really build a case that, in allhonesty, if they wanted to get
(18:31):
to their outcome which they didthey'd already paid the money,
had the contract needed to moveforward, money, had the contract
needed to move forward.
Then what I was saying becameundeniable.
So when you use data andresearch in meetings, you can
also activate this peer pressureeffect.
So this is actually an addedbonus in addition to just
(18:55):
letting the data work for you.
The thing is that other peoplethat are in that room with them
that may be working on thatproject with you, or maybe
they're someone that's workingunder that individual or working
above the individual, whoeverit may be at the table.
Those people may notnecessarily hold the same bias.
They may have a different view.
Their subjective view may notbe as negative or negative at
(19:18):
all.
Maybe they think funnily ofyour expertise and your presence
and the thing about you beingable to remain objective at
those times and focusing on thedata, the research and the
results, is that those who cansee what's happening, the other
people in the room that canunderstand the logic and what
(19:39):
you're saying and what you'redoing, they are going to make it
harder for that biasedindividual to keep pushing back
without losing some of thecredibility themselves that they
have, because after a while,this is going to sound, it's
going to sound crazy for someoneto be arguing against facts and
data.
Right, so that peer pressureeffect is real and that just
(20:00):
giving you a pro tip.
Use it to your advantage,because when you get other
people on your team andsupporting what you're saying,
you're just adding fuel to yourfire.
So, first things first, tonavigate all of this, remain
objective.
Let's let the facts do the work.
Now.
The second thing is that Idon't want you to run from
(20:23):
calling out bias and otherstereotypes and mistruths that
may exist, but the one thing wedo want to do, because of the
nature of the business thatwe're doing, is that we wanna
call it out without callingsomeone out.
I hope you caught that you wantto call the bias out without
(20:48):
calling the person out.
Now listen, if it's the weekendand you're in the streets and
whatnot, hey, you can call thebias out, the person out and
whoever else out.
But in this setting, I'll behonest that you know, I'm one
that feels as if you can callthe bias out without calling
someone out and still it be apowerful approach.
(21:11):
And there are a number of waysthat you can do this.
If you sense that resistancethat you're getting, the
pushback that you're getting, isrooted in a sense of bias or a
perception that somehow you arenot good enough to do the work,
or just whatever beliefs thatthe person may have, it is OK to
(21:32):
address it indirectly, withoutturning the room into a
battlefield.
And what this looks like isliterally just saying you know,
hey, I know this approach mayseem unconventional and I see
that you have discomfort withthis approach.
However, here's why it'sworking in similar organization
(21:52):
and here's what the data shows.
So you're letting the personknow that I recognize that you
have resistance to what I'msaying and although you have
this resistance, I'm telling youthat it has worked before and
it's going to work again.
Skepticism right, becauseoftentimes people push back not
(22:19):
just because they disagree withwhat's being said, but they also
disagree with who said it.
So you're able to push backwithout creating more conflict.
And this is very beneficial,especially if you're in a larger
meeting with a group ofindividuals where you have to be
very careful how you navigatethe conversation right and keep
(22:43):
it on a positive note, movingforward, so that it does not go
off the rails and it shifts thefocus back, in all honesty, back
to the objective facts, back tologic, back to results.
You're acknowledging that theskepticism exists.
You're recentering yourauthority in the conversation,
(23:05):
so you're taking it back to.
I recognize you have a problem,but I am telling you the
solution and I'm going to tellyou how it's worked for other
people.
So that is really powerful.
Call it out without callingsomeone out.
And then what I would say is thenext big thing is to reclaim
(23:30):
your control over code switching.
I want us to reclaim controlover it because I myself have
been guilty of it.
I think anyone has been in thecorporate environment and been a
part of a marginalized group,especially if you're a black
female in the work environment.
You have code switched beforebut, unlike your work, your nine
(23:54):
to five, where you had toanswer to somebody else in your
business.
You don't need to be codeswitching any longer Now.
It's your choice whether or notyou do so, but the pressure to
code switch really does increasewhen we're around people who
view us as somehow beinginaccurate or what we're doing
(24:16):
is being insufficient, and wecan either support their
misguided beliefs, as I saidbefore, or we can reclaim our
control, and what I want you tofeel empowered to do is to
reclaim your control and definewho you are on your own terms.
(24:36):
I'm not saying that this isalways easy, but I do honestly
feel like it's necessary, andone of the ways that I have
found to do this is to just makesure that I clarify for
everyone that's listeningexactly what I said, what I
(25:01):
meant and why I said what I said.
So not only am I providing theinformation, but I'm providing
context for it, and by providingthat context for it and
speaking clearly and standing inwhat you have already stated,
meaning owning it, that exerts alevel of power in the
(25:26):
conversation that really doesprevent others from challenging
you in the future.
I think you will be shocked ifyou were to embrace that fully,
because it is time for you tochange the narrative, and not
code switching is going to helpyou actually do that.
(25:49):
Now the last piece to this thatwe talked about, you know we
first need to recognize thatthere is a trust gap that exists
.
Then we need to figure out howto navigate these dynamics by
staying objective and callingout bias when we see it and
reclaiming our control overco-switching.
Then we need to focus onturning the trust gap into a
(26:12):
bridge or bridging it over, andreally that's all about flipping
the script.
In order for us to bridge thisgap, we need to strengthen our
authority and our reputation,because when we're able to
strengthen our authority and ourreputation, that is going to
(26:33):
supersede any interaction thatwe have with people moving
forward.
So that's a way to begin tocombat some of these misguided
beliefs before we even get intoconversation and meet those who
are going to work with.
So how do we do this Now?
The first thing is and goingback to data, because data is
(26:53):
just like a big player when itcomes to navigating and
overcoming bias is that you wantto use data as your superpower.
The reality is although now, intoday's society, I feel like we
deal with alternative facts andwhatnot.
We know that that's not reallya thing, but we have to deal
with it.
But facts are hard to arguewith the more you can tie your
(27:19):
recommendations and yourinsights and your strategies to
facts and clear outcomes, whenyou can tie it to specifically I
had when I was early in mycareer as a consultant when you
(27:41):
can focus on the numbers, thethings that actually show you
what is happening, the facts,the results, the outcomes the
more you sidestep the subjectivebias, because the facts are
what's going to drive others interms of their actions.
So don't wait to be asked forproof.
(28:03):
I want you to collect this datafor yourself.
I want you to be up front inevery proposal, meeting,
presentation.
I want you to reiterate it overand over again Whatever changes
that you have made, results youhave driven, don't just say it
one time, don't just put it inone report, don't just throw it
up on one slide.
This needs to be communicatedover and over and over again,
(28:28):
because those that you work withwhen you're working in a
situation where you are facingthis level of bias or scrutiny,
it is going to be those factsthat help you to push further
and that will form yourreputation, which we want to be
positive.
Now the second thing is thatwhen you're able to build
stronger relationships and thisgets back to the authenticity
(28:52):
and empathy piece the bias,remember, thrives in distance.
When someone doesn't feel likethey're close to you, when they
feel like you're an outsider,it's easier for them to hold
these misguided beliefs.
But when they know you, whenthey are in greater proximity to
(29:13):
you, it gets a lot harder.
Now I'm not saying that itcompletely goes away For some
individuals it won't.
But the more that you can getpersonal and find common ground
with clients, the better.
And what I always like to tellthe clients I work with is that
if you're walking into a roomand this is going to happen a
(29:33):
lot as a woman and consultant,especially when you get into
working with higher C-suite youknow individuals and corporate
spaces and whatnot, just keepingin mind that women only make up
less than 25% of thoseindividuals.
And then you get to black womenI think we're less than 5% or
4% You're not going tonecessarily walk into a room
(29:53):
where there's a lot ofcommonality.
So you want to begin to lookfor common ground with those
clients and this goes back tothat preparation and thinking
about how you're going toapproach your meeting.
Finding those elements that arein common is going to help you
talk and have a conversationthat humanizes the approach,
(30:18):
sharing stories, whether they'repersonal or professional that
all helps you build trustthrough connection and not just
competence.
And the closer people feel toyou, the harder it is for those
biases to stick.
It's hard, they have to letsome of them go, unless they're
(30:38):
just I don't know heck bent orhell bent on keeping them.
It's going to be hard to notlet those things go.
So the more you can build thoseconnections, the better.
And then once their reputationis established, like those
results that we were talkingabout you're getting, once
(30:59):
you're building your reputationon facts, on results, on
outcomes, on positiveinteractions and relationships,
your reputation will be one ofthe most effective long-term
strategies that you can have.
Because if clients andcolleagues hear about you in a
good way before they meet youand what they hear is positive
(31:22):
and results-driven and rooted incredibility and from a good
person, that begins to pre-frametheir perception of you, it's
going to change the way thatthey view you and that works to
your advantage.
So you got to get visible,whether it is speaking on panels
(31:43):
or sharing your insights onLinkedIn or writing thought
leadership pieces.
You need to get active, sharingwhat you know, getting visible,
building this extra layer oftrust, because those are the
things that are going to helpyou break down this wall and
bridge this trust gap.
(32:03):
So, listen, navigating bias andbridging the trust gap is not
easy.
It's not easy.
I hate that.
It's something that we have todo, but it's absolutely possible
.
But it's absolutely possibleand you have the power to take
(32:26):
this bias that you represent ispresent and that's impacting the
perception of your work, andstrategically strengthen the
trust drivers that you knowcreates a better relationship.
And then you end up flipping anarrative and defining the
entire engagement you have withthat client on your terms.
It is amazing how well this canwork for you and into your
(32:48):
advantage.
And, like I said, as you startworking with bigger clients,
bigger contracts, biggercorporations and enterprises
because I'm naming it andclaiming it now as you do that
you're going to run into thisfrom time to time it's a reality
of our society, at least forright now.
So I want to challenge you thisweek to start thinking about
(33:13):
how you can use data andstorytelling and relationship
building in your business.
Now, to bridge some of thesetrust gaps that you may feel
Whenever you walk into that roomwith someone that you feel may
question why you're there or mayhave some skepticism as to
whether or not you can do thework.
(33:33):
I want you to be confidentenough to stand in that space
and rely on facts, rely on yourhistory of work that you've done
and even if you're juststarting out, you have history
because nine times out of 10,you are working consulting in a
space where you have worked fora number of years, even decades.
You have results.
(33:53):
You have something to stand on.
Speak to that.
Claim it, speak bold.
Something to stand on.
Speak to that.
Claim it, speak boldly, beobjective, stick with facts and
find those areas of connection.
All of these things are goingto work in your favor.
I promise it will.
So if this episode resonatedwith you and you enjoyed it,
(34:21):
then share with a friend, letsomeone know about it and how
it's been helpful to you.
But then also, I want to knowhow you feel about bias in your
space and how you get over theskepticism and how you navigate
these trust gaps that may exist.
Let me know, send me a DM onInstagram or LinkedIn at Dr
(34:43):
Angelina Davis, and I want tojust hear from you about how you
were starting to bridge thistrust gap.
Is this something that you'refacing often?
Have you tried some of thesethings?
Have they worked?
Have they not worked?
I'd love to know.
So definitely reach out to me,and I hope that this will help
you feel more prepared andempowered to take on any client
(35:08):
that comes your way.
I don't want you to questionthe work that you're doing or
your ability to show up at thehighest levels as the consultant
you meant to be.
All right, so until next time,keep building trust and always
(35:29):
claim your authority.
All right, guys, talk to yousoon.
Bye.
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