December 2, 2025 • 37 mins
In this Best Of episode, we revisit one of our most loved conversations with Coby Edgar — a proud Aboriginal curator, creative, mentor and cultural powerhouse. Coby’s story is filled with honesty, humour, resilience and deep cultural insight, making this episode a standout moment from the Black Magic Woman archives.
As we wrap up the year, we’re sharing a selection of Best Of episodes while the team prepares for an exciting new chapter.
Regular weekly releases will resume in the New Year, with a new and improved Black Magic Woman Podcast coming your way.
Thank you for your continued support — we can’t wait to bring you a fresh season of powerful storytelling, leadership, and Blak excellence in 2026.
Links & Resources:
- Bankstown Arts Centre website
- https://powerhouse.com.au/stories/durrmu-arts-aboriginal-corporation
- https://www.2022.australianceramicstriennale.com.au/presenters-and-artists/coby-edgar
Website: www.blackmagicwoman.com.au
Follow us on Instagram - @blackmagicwomanpodcast
The Black Magic Woman Podcast is hosted by Mundanara Bayles and is an uplifting conversational style program featuring mainly Aboriginal guests and explores issues of importance to Aboriginal people and communities. Mundanara is guided by Aboriginal Terms of Reference and focusses more on who people are rather than on what they do.
If you enjoyed this episode, please ‘Subscribe’ on Apple Podcasts or ‘Follow’ on your Spotify app and tell your friends and family about us! If you’d like to contact us, please email, info@blackmagicwoman.com.au
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magical Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the land we have recorded this episode on.
We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land where you,
the listener or viewer are tuning in from. We would
like to pay our respects to our elders past and
present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal land and
(00:26):
always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's what I love about art. It gives that opportunity
to have those discussions and not being seen as angry
or violent or you know, protesting. Is it really protesting
when you're protesting your own body or controversial?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail.
Welcome back to another episode of the Black Magical Podcast.
I am here on Cameragle Country, which is in beautiful
Sydney also known as the Orination. I can't wait for
(01:05):
you to meet my next guest, and we've got a
few things that we were to unpack and even made
some connections before we press record. So I can't wait
for you to share a little bit about yourself. Sis
tell our listeners if you don't mind, and have yours
on YouTube, your name, your mob and a bit about
where you grew up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, hello and thank you for having me. My name
is Kobe and Edgunn and I'm a girl from Darwin.
I grew up in Darwen and moved when I was
about five years old to Adelaide. I've got biggest mob
family and lots of different I guess races, all the
naughty and ice and everything with a bit of spice.
So Filipino, Aboriginal from lat three different language groups, English, Austrian, Irish, Scottish,
(01:50):
a bit of everything. That melting pot of Darwin, you
know it is.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It is if people say that the Darwin's a melting
pot and.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Here I am. Yeah, yeah, big family adlade.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
You said you grew up.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, when we moved to Adelaide or Tasmania for a year,
weirdly because my stepfather he grew up there and his
grandfather passed away. So we stayed there for like a
year and then moved to Adelaide and that's where I
did my high school and university studies, and then wanted
to come to Sydney because I'm a big Boodoo queer
(02:24):
and wanted to run a mark.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh my god, my family down here too, do you
know Caira comes sing.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I do know Caira. Yeah, she works up with Marley there. Yeah,
she's Brenda's niece, Brenda Crofts niece. Yeah, I know her
from around the track. She does deadly work over there.
She's clear too, one of our biggest mob queer to
days around here.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, I marched to Marti Grass with her, that's deadily first.
It was actually a dream of mine to get on
that parade, but I just didn't want to be on
anyone's float. So I was on the float that actually
won for the best float, which one was. It was
the memorial real float okay, yeah, for a brother boy
who passed away. Yes, I was on that one. Yeah,
(03:09):
and my brother Greg Phillips was a queen on the
front of it. But my yeah, my lot of my
family and community here. I grew up partying in Oxford Street.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I didn't get that, like they closed that down before
I could.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Like, well, I was here then and it was the best.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
That's why I came. Because my uncle was just like
you know, uncle Gary Lee, his beautiful uncle, great great
artist as well. And he yeah, when I was younger,
he was I was had like mohawk and wearing like
butch clothes and stuff. And he's like, but I know
you're not real feminine. But I know you're not real
butch either, So gave me Tiffany jewelry and he's like,
(03:48):
you can be a bit of a mix of both,
you know. And I'm like, thanks uncle, and he's like,
you need to go to Sydney. I grew up in
Sydney and go run on. Yeah. And then I was like,
all right, oh, come Sydney, lock out laws, no party.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
In COVID, I know.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So it's adown woman, I'm married. Oh good, I did it.
You did it.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
You didn't need the night live.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No. I came to the Big Pond, I found myself
a fish and said, you're not related. No, No, she'.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
White because of the bloody stolen generation. Right, but we're
here today, and I know that you're doing a lot
of work in so many different spaces. Yeah, and you're
representing out there in Bankstown all over the shop, but
living here in Redfern.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, living in Redfern. I've lived all over. When I
moved to Sydney, I was working at the Art Gallery
of New South Wales. I was working for Tracy Moffin.
Actually she was doing the Venice BIONALI and I was
one of her assistants. So I moved over and then
started working for the art gallery there for like eight years.
And during that time, when you land in Sydney you
just end up, you know, hop scotching around the city.
(05:00):
It's really hard to find your roots. So I lived
in Red fan fresh Water, over this side and then
all over you know, Australia Street in Merrickville there with
all the queers and all the lovelies there. My local
pub was super queer. I loved it. Just a hop,
skip and jump away from my house. I could walk
home at two o'clock in the morning and be right
(05:21):
yeah and have biggest mob fun with everyone. And then
now I'm back in Redfern. I lived in Red Fernd
with my one of my sister girls, Nicole Monks, and
she's an artist. She had a little boy, little boy,
Bitty Biddy, at five years old, and she's like, well,
if you can deal with a kid, you can come
live with me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm right with kids.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I got a lot of mob.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I'm right. She's like, well, in Sydney, most people
don't want to live with five year old kids, and
I'm like, oh, I don't give.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
A stuff, Like I serious side.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I moved in and first thing I cooked for her.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Now you're auntie.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, chili mudcrab, first meal. And now that kid loves
his seafood, he's full. I'm getting him like Darwin Palette. Yeah,
making sure.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Because there's that kind of Malaysian Indonesian. There's even Chinese
Japanese influence.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, we're Asian.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah. We traded with Silhouesi for two hundred years prior
to colonization. You know, tripang ce cucumber that went all
the way up to China and back. And people don't
talk about that because that is a really amazing piece
of evidence of us being, you know, a very well
developed economy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We had training, having international relations.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
We had international relations for two hundred years prior to colonization.
The mccasson mob will come over six months of the
year and set up camp. Our word for money is
rule pier, our word for suscils, breast for milk, word
for milks.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So their language became part of our local dialects and languages.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And culture to like, you know, they traded still with us.
You know, steal all the there's like heaps big history
of steel cloth, tobacco, you know, marriage as well. You
know they went over there and married up and had
family and were buried there and biggest story there.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But there was a actual what do you call it
when there's a reunion. There was something in the early
nineties where the Darwin government flew over Indonesian people, about
six of them who were descendants of Abersham people, to
honor that trade.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yea, yeah, that relationship. Yeah, we still do it, Like
I went to Gama three two years ago now and
that Yeah, we had brother Abdi there. Abdi's an artist
and he came over and you know, did that ceremony
with the I think it was a good match mob
that he did it with. I can't remember, but you know,
that ceremony, so they you know, he did his dance
(07:47):
and then they had their reply and reenacted that meeting
on the beach that they'd usually have at the start
of a season.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Did we watch that plant? We were there that year,
so we've been a garment at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We've probably been walking down the street and have not
even seen each other.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Because Marrickville is like like the place to be.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, I'm quiet person unless someone puts the camera in
front of my face and change.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And the next minute, So what are you doing now?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Like you're curating still, So I'm curated by trade. So
I finished high school and I was the first person
from my family to finish high school. Immediate family, real
geek like Choristar school captain type geek, proper geeks.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, high achiever.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, I don't know b's and you know, a couple
of a's and caesar, but not hugely high achiever in
comparison to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But but what the still and in a leadership position?
Why are you at school?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I was in the you know, in the ring. I
want to go so yeah, and then yeah, my art
teacher was like, you should probably do an arts degree
because I was like, I don't know what I want
to do. I like sports or my brothers in art
do sports my art, but you know, you can't really
make money from art. Maybe I'll be a teacher. I've
got a scholarship to do a teaching did one term
(09:05):
of it and was like, I can't do this. If
this woman tells me that I have to do X
Y and z to teach a class. Like there's so
many different ways to teach something. It's just like you
can't do this, this and this, and I'm like I can.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I don't want to do that non completely different approach.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, so I worked to Adelaide High School for ages
when I was a kid or a kid eighteen nineteen,
twenty twenty one, and then yeah, it was like I'll
just try curating. Like it's this big, kind of scary
looking thing when you look at curators and what they do,
but Adelaide was a good place to do it. I
did Time and Do Festival, which was the inaugural festival
with Nikki Comeston there I was twenty four. That was
(09:43):
a huge amount of experience for me. You know, I
just roughed it like most art curators for the first
few years, you know, six different jobs and in one
calendar year and having to apply for grants and just
exhausted all the time. But nothing changes.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So there's no money as a curator, Like tell me.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It's like all arts practices, like there's no money until
you're the top like ten percent. And everyone wants to
wear something that you've made or been in a room
that you've curated.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I can. I didn't realize it. I know it's quite
I know the arts in Genue that a lot of
our mob in particular like Struggle.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I'm basically ADMIN last, so it's like yeah, same same,
different as admin.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah. So you're here in Sydney you're curating. Yeah yeah,
what are you working on now? Anything that ye can hear?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
There's so much we see. There's like the National Portrait
Gallery down in Canberra. I've just there's a show up
at the moment with Joan Ross and that's my first
show working with a non Indigenous person. Actually, she's Glaswegian
and really really fun. She's just a really good friend
of mine, and she confronts the colonial, colonial greed, the superiority,
superiority complexes that came on the shores with those big boats,
(10:57):
and how we've ended up where we are today because
of all of that. And she's really good fun. I
like working on with different people. And you know, we've
got that big Captain cook that's like worth several million
dollars hanging up next to one that she's made out
of krusty.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Carpet at the National Gallery.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
National Portrait Gallery, National Portrait Gallery.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Is this where there was also a Gina Ryan Hark piece.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Oh no, that's across the road, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
From me, and she was demanding that they remove it. Yeah,
and they were like, but this is.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Our it is Yeah, you can't. Sorry, it did it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It went all around the world, didn't it. And now
more people seen it. No one would have even known
that it was there.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Nah. And she didn't kick up stink and he does
portress like that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That's what it gave the artist, this kind of global
spotlight and recognition.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I was like, yeah, Vincent's really lovely. He's quite shy sometimes,
but when he speaks he can be very you know,
his work's very serious as well. I've bumped into him
a fair bit.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Through his grandson. Yeah, great grandson, grandson, great grandson, great
grandson for Albert Namage. Oh yeah, wow, you've met him,
I've worked with talk about him. We do art tours.
We need to connect.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, that's been my career curators. That's what we do.
We do art tours and explain art and write lots
of stuff and do heaps of research. I basically make
a beautiful space for people to tell their stories and
try to be the translator between their world and the
rest of the world and the institutions all of it
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, you got to know how to navigate all of that.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah. So ten years working in institutions. Started at the
Art Gallery of South Australia, moved over to Art Gallery
of New South Wales and then Powerhouse. And I quit
working for institutions when the referendum happened and I just
didn't like the way that the world was, the politics
were treating our lives.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
And you know, yet again just who was showing up
for us?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, And I was like, I can't keep working for
government if government doesn't work for me. And I've learned
the playbook. I know what you're about. I respect you,
but you can't have any more of my time. Sorry.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
My mum said you what do you keep your friends
close but your enemy is closer. But she also said
to go and learn the white men's ways.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Well that's why I was there, and learn and.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Then come back and bring those skills or experiences back
to committees. So the Powerhouse is was it more independent?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Little brother of Gallery Evening South Wales? So back in
the day, all right, here we go. You want to
hear about histories? Now The first kind of ever gallery
or space that held objects in Sydney was in the
Botanic Gardens and Jonathan Jones made a really amazing work
for the Cawdor Public Art Projects bar Angle Jara and
it was about these this building and this building had
(13:47):
all of these artifacts from Polynesia and Melanesia. Huge building.
It was during the time when they first figured out
how to make electricity. It fire, biggest fire. Everything went
up only ash. That's it. It was that hot that
fire and all of these cultural artifacts died. And from
there they set up the Art Gallery Society, which became
(14:09):
the Art Gallery of New South Wales, which was the
whole heap of you know, people who were really keen
on the arts and wanted to collect art and wanted
Sydney to be a hub for art and be the
place to be in Australia for art. And then the
Powerhouse Museum was established as it's like brother and that's
more about the activity of doing, and you know they
look more at processes of things, so you know, one
(14:30):
of their first big projects was the Castle Hill site
of eucalyp plantations, and those eucalyp plantations they tested all
the different eucalypt types to see, Okay, which one's best
for oils, which one's best for tannins, which one's best
for making houses with all of that kind of scientific stuff,
And the Powerhouse holds that knowledge and then the art
gallery holds like, like I guess, a high art and
(14:52):
expression of art in that context.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, you see a lot of shows though at the Powerhouse,
like it's a creative space.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, it's about showing that process as well as the product,
which is why.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, because there's like the Prisbone Powerhouse, Sydney Powerhouse, and
they all kind of connected to the galleries.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
No, not always. Those guys are just like they kind
of established via state or territory, and they're not always.
They're all independent from from themselves and kind of had
different ways of establishing. But a lot of the time
it was to create places for Australian art and to
be housed. And the importance of that obviously goes back
(15:36):
to the collecting and collecting institutions and why do we collect?
Who decided to collect things? It wasn't you know, within
indigenous culture, we most of our objects are ephemeral for
a reason. You know, they're meant to die after time,
whereas this kind of where did the collecting methodologies come from?
Their scientific methodologies of collecting, you know, and then now
(15:59):
we have these beautiful art galleries and museums. But the
hard of it is we first started to collect scientific things,
including people's bodies, yes, and cultural artifacting heads, and that
was a part of the colonial process. I own this
object now, and that's a part of my collection. This
thing that where you think you own it because you've
got a sample of it, and that idea of ownership,
(16:22):
and that's a psychological thing. You know, blackfellows might have
a piece of land, but I don't feel like you
own it.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's like a paper. Yeah, you do, you own a property.
You own the piece of paper, not the actual land.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And what was colonization like it was you know, these
beautiful words written on a piece of paper that people
that spoken understood that language said all right, yeah, well
that makes sense to me, all right, it must be true. Yeah,
move on, let's not ask the person that's actually you know,
the person being subjected to this thought or idea.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And this is the beauty of art, right, that representation
still retelling, you know, keeping history alive and keeping people accountable,
and I think that's an issue. It isn't issue. I
don't think in this country where there's a massive denial
of our history, our shared history.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I think that's about.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That you must get so much.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's an intellectual field, so it's seemed different like so
I think R and B is an intellectual field, but
it's not necessarily appreciated as such by you know, the
white canon of what is important to their lives and
knowledge and systems and blah blah blah. But art is
art is something that we can kind of meet them
(17:36):
intellectually on a level. And it's a really good football
field for us to get a few good tackles in
because we can re evidence what they've written in their
books and put in their museums and say, hey, hold
on a second, right here, you wrote that in your
own words, and I've just made an artwork about it.
It's not political, it's just the truth telling. So that's
(17:56):
what I love about art. It gives that opportunity to
have those those discussions and not being seen and angry
or violent or you know, protesting. Is it really protest
when you're protesting your own body or controversial, it's not
So that's why I went into the arts because and
Richard Bell has this really great quote he's amazing political artist.
(18:18):
My uncle get out, well then fuck you would know
that he's like all of his art. Why did he
become an artist because he wouldn't get arrested for saying
what he wanted to say? Yeah, like he would have
was he become He's like everyone loves him. He's like
Aboriginal arts uncle. He's not just your uncle. We think
he's all our uncle.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
He's like, yeah, we love He's kind of led the way,
one of many people that have been part of a
So he's part of Proper Now collective and they're in
Brisbane and there's a whole of deadly people.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Marley's kind of like the Sydney version of the Sydney.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Version Proper Now that it's I don't know why though,
like still in twenty twenty four that people like uncle
Richard seen is Oh that's a bit provocative or that's
a bit radical. It's truth telling and that's the issue
in this country. People don't don't feel comfortable with some
of the truths.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I guess that's what happens when you're not
used to I don't know, looking at your own privilege
and understanding why that might make you feel uncomfortable, Because
if you're uncomfortable from what he says, then maybe it's
because you should be self work.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, animal soul searching, that might need to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And it doesn't come from anywhere either. Like even his
bell serum is still popular today. You know, you know,
Aboriginal arts are white thing, is what it says, and
he's not wrong in a lot of senses. You know,
arnam Land Mob they change their barks from just being
wrapped to putting in pictures of the animals so that
Blunders could try and figure it out easier. So you know,
(19:59):
he altered, they altered those specific paintings to make it
easier for Blunder Mob, not for their own people. So
it was the white thing to do that and introduce
those things to try and make it easier for non
Indigenous people to understand us. Same with Uncle Vincent, then
Albert Namajera, his uncle, grandfather, gre great grandfather. He painted
(20:23):
watercolors in that vein so that it could be appreciated
for a like picturesque. He could paint dot paintings. He
chose not to for a reason because it's easier for
people to see, oh yeah, that's that range there, that
Mount Gillen Rangers if you're a blunder because you've seen
it with your eyes, than it is for you to
see it in their symbolic representations, which is dot paintings.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And that's when we talk about abational art. It's it's versatile.
People have adapted, it's evolved. It's not just traditionally not
painting anymore. So you see a lot of art these days,
like Honey, Judy Watson, it is work. Yeah, she's big
bronze sculptures. You've got Megan Cope over on you know,
(21:09):
Quenuba doing oysters and stuff. You've got weavers doing all
different art in the work that you're doing. Now, I
guess is there a massive art show happening, is it?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah? Well on Saturday, we've got that same, same different
show at Black Blacktown Art Center, which is a bi
Anali Blacktown Bnali actually, and that's a it's not a
huge show, but it's a it's it's more of a
local community. It's a local community like art center.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Quite like there's a lot of people that are engaged
with it. In the community.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, Yeah, that's why I want to see them. Yeah.
So usually most of my work I've done either like
you know, training people in desert, you know, how to
hang a painting, or you know, I like being at
bush most of the time. I'm not a curator who
likes to be you know, over in New York referred
to be in your color, thank you. And so when
(22:07):
I work in institutions, a lot of my work is
focused in cities and in big buildings that are you know,
made out of beautiful marble that I'm scared I'll slip on.
And so it's nice to go into the communities. And
I've lived in Sydney for nearly eight years now and
I haven't had the opportunity to work with the local
arts center. I did a show out the Bearded Tit,
(22:28):
my favorite gay little pub courts, sucking the black tit
it It's called that's what it was called. Yeah about
how you know, people need to get off the black
tit and maybe you know, start trying to find their
own resources and shit.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So some of these shows, right, that's taking a piss,
but it's humor.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
You need a bit of humor with all the trauma,
and that's kind of what I've been doing a lot
with my work, is focusing on joy, like I can.
You know, I've studied art for long enough to know
I can be real serious and give a two hour
presentation on the stey of an artist. But that doesn't
move me, and I don't think it moves many people anymore.
I think we need a little bit of humor and same,
(23:11):
same with different and different. You know. I was brought
on by Rachel Kang there, she's the director. She had
a bit of an idea about what she wanted to
focus on and look at ways that different people connect
and people connect with nature in different cultures. And I
was like, I was sitting in Darwin with my uncle Gary,
and I was like, it's all just same, same, different.
(23:32):
But I was like, okay, yeah, that's the title of
the show. Uncle. Then he's like well, I was like, Uncle,
what do you mean by that? And he's like, well,
you know black follows that were colonized here, we eat rice,
black follows on that side, they eat potatoes, same, same, different.
We all have these different ways of connecting with each other.
It's our ways of being doing annoying if you want
(23:53):
to get into like axiologies, you know, ontologies, the scientific
ways of looking at it and pistemologies jumping into that.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I reckon on colin jeez, that's cancer.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
On colleges. These big words they are, they're big words,
but it's just it's just the same, same different Like.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I love that the fact you're saying, you know, I
can talk this talk, go and present on this for
two hours and give a Harley intellect your account of
somebody's life, or just go out bush and just be
with mob.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I'd just rather be with Mob. Yeah, it's that's the
where I get my joy from. And so same same
different kind of looks at that I want people to
talk about. You know, I was talking about the Siluesi
in our Indonesian we're very Asian in Darwin. You know.
The only reason I reckon that we're called like, you know,
Australia is because of the colony. We actually are very Asian.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
We are in the Asian neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, we're closer to them Mob over there than we
are to you know, people down in Tasmania.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So we have that Asian culture and people forget about it.
And I'm like, you know, all the way that people
migrate here and then start families, especially people of color, same, same,
different a lot of the time, you know, getting away
from war, getting away from poverty, trying to start a
better life, whatever it is. And they have similarities within that. Also,
(25:15):
the way that we we pray, the way that we
religiously do things, you know, religious religion is you know,
the repetitive movements of something, you know, with intention. And
you know the way that we cook food together, the
way we prepare food. There's similarities. Blood chung is. We
could talk about blood chung for three hours, and you know,
(25:36):
just as a food, and how many different families have
different ingredients that they Salty plums, Yeah, saldi plums.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Everyone eats soldy plums most people in Yeah. I love
soldy plums.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
That was our lollies.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
My husband's Fijian and he loves salty plums.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I was like, what the heck? Olia, the lemon with vinegar,
some salt, nah, but not salty plums.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
No, SALTI plums are girl up on them.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Just had misstaple and your teeth for.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Red, teeth are red all the time, Yes, stains on
your hands for days. Taste Yeah, used to they were
our lollies, you know, we didn't have like you know, and.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
When they come from they're an Asian.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, they're they're dried plums, dried plums. They're dried preserved
plums with heaps of salt on them so they're super
sour and put them in your mouth and mango dried mango.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Pray for salty plums, I know.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, I pray for Soldi plums. I've got salty plumbs.
They're just sitting in there when I miss home.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, here in Sydney, there is a community here and
you're mentioning like it's rewarding and you get joy from
being with MOB. Do you ever get to go back home.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
All the time? Yeah? I do because I work in
the arts and well and Tea's kind of a hub
for you know, to scatter from there if you want
to go to art centers. So I go home a
lot because if I want to work with MOB, I
try to go out there and make sure that my
projects I'm going out there. I don't like being a
(27:03):
cute reader who just sits there and is like I
want five of those beautiful bags from that community by
this date. Thank you very much, like I need to
go there.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
And relationships and is there advice then for our mom
who might want to work in this space.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
What if there's so much work there? Honestly, there's so
much work. Come and join me. Honestly, I love it.
It's good fun. There's different ways that you can curate, Like,
I'm not a very serious curator. I like to have
fun with my work. I have a joke, you know.
I do some writing. I'm on stage sometimes you can
There's lots of different things you can do. I'm sitting
here talking to you. You know. I thought i'd be
a book bitch, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Not self in plot your own boss.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, I'm independent.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Independent.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I work part time for Agency Projects, which is just
me to move to advertise for its first CEO indeed CEO.
So please, if you know anyone who's deadly that wants
to come work with me and Leila and Mately and
the team we're looking for a deadly indigenous CEO. Really
are in Melbourne National Remit. I work part time for
(28:06):
them and then the rest of the time I do
things like this. Yeah, Bankstown working with Joan writing. I
did lots of writing. I love writing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And what do you do with the writing I write.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
About artists, Yeah, I write essays for artists, write diaristically
as well about people like you. Today you're like, I'm
not going to read your bio. You can introduce yourself. Yeah,
the credentials, that's a big part of like being advertising yourself.
I think as a person nowadays, I don't think it
comes well for black fellows at all. Yeah, I don't
(28:37):
do it. I've refuse to do it. You know, some
will sit there and to you and be like I
did this and I did that, and like you can
google me if you really want to, but maybe just
get to know me as a person and if you
like me, then work with me.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well that's the thing, right, relationships.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, and I prefer those things. And you know, just
the kind of credentials freaks me out a little bit,
so I try to go away.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's a kind of borderline where you're big noting it is.
I know, when you're growing up in community, you kind
of I don't know, there's something about our culture where
there's this kind of humbleness about it.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You can't pretend like you're better than the person that
sits next to you, even if they.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Otherwise people said, we're we're supposed to come from Yeah,
it's no, that's not how we work for you.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So it's like, yeah, a bit weird trying to do curating,
but the curating is good fun. You get really good opportunities,
Like I've traveled so much, I've gotten to see so
many different parts of the world, had so many amazing opportunities.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Favorite country Is there a favorite country? It has to
be outside of this beautiful place.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Honestly, I just got I get home.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Nowhere else in the world you could go. That was
like reminded me of home.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Na I liked Singapore because people looked like me, and
I like their food, like they have amazing food. I
could just live there and eat all day every day. Yeah,
that was good fun.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, my kids are looking for the next holiday.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Oh is that what we ask So they're asking.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
One wants to go to Singapore, one wants to go
to Thailand, and the other one wants to go to Japan.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So I've been to Japan. Japan's good too. Yes, that's
real deadly. Yes, that's freak out though, like it's not
for like, you know, going into nature or anything. Yeah,
you want to go to all the big mulls and
stuff and eat all the food. Yeah, and then Singapore
a bit same, but they've got like it's freaky city
because it's real multicultural. It's kind of like you know
how Venice was like a you know, a port for
(30:22):
people to come in and out of. It's a bit
like that, and but heaps of Asian mob. So it's like,
I don't know, I've traveled overseas to plenty of places,
but I'm like racially ambiguous, like people can't pick me
like from and so it's like being around places where
I can blend in weirdly, like yeah, another rada.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
We went to Belgium with my wife a couple of
weeks ago, and I did not like it at all.
It was just different liken, Like I just didn't enjoy it.
I'm like, no birds, no trees, like no one had
dogs walking down the street. I don't know, just weird.
Just everything was brick and beer. It's slat, and I'm
like that's good, Like you've got beautiful the culture.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Here, that's part of that's the that's what they do.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I don't want a street market, not a pub, I
don't know, So yeah, that's what I like I guess preference,
personal preference.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I just I know that a lot of listeners are
going to be like blown away that you've makes people
just kind of don't think blackfellows can do what you do,
can do what I do, travel to twenty different countries,
you know, Like there's so limited. A lot of people
are very limited. They're thinking of what we can do
(31:31):
and achieve, and it's sounded one thing, but at the
same time doesn't bother me.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I'm just flukin as this, Like honestly, I've been fluking
it since day one.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I keep going that plan.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I just do what I love to do. I try
and challenge myself, and you know, if someone says that
I'm stupid, I try and prove them wrong, which is
probably why I ended up very successful academically, you know.
But now I'm in my thirties and I'm moving out
of that and I'm comfortable. You know, I've proven to
myself that I can get these really good jobs and
(32:02):
go and do all that is really deadly things. And
now I just want to work with mob again and
young people again and be like it's hard work, but
it's fulfilling work, and there's heaps of jobs out there
in the arts. It's a really good space for you
to work on yourself and your community as well, because
you have to. When you're working in arts, you're not
doing a skilled job for hire. You're talking about something
(32:25):
that belongs to you, your identity, and you belong to
that community as well. So it can also be really
fulfilling moralistically for yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Getting people to reconnect if they're not connected to community.
That's probably a good way to wrap up the art
because a lot of our mob especially that come to
the big cities, a lot of them don't come with
much family or some thought and they've got to start
from scratch. So I hope that some of the people
that are listening are inspired about what you've been doing
(32:56):
and all the things you've achieved. And you're only in
your thirties. I'm like far but I don't get to
meet many people here that are in Sydney that are
doing the things that you've done. And I think listeners
are probably thinking, wow, where have you been? How do
we connect? So do you have a website? How do
people reach out to you on your socials?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, you can jump on my Instagram. It's which means
associ in Lalarakia language or old people, it means something else.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, how do you spell it?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
B u d ju? Would you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You know you know what a budgigin is.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's all purpose.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
When you went in Brisbane right when you're Bourdill your ship,
you gam it? So where people going, hey are you Budgell?
When I was like under the Murray School leaving Redford,
I'm like, am I bud? What do you mean? Am
I bud?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
So there was this is going to make you laugh?
So means vagina in Larakia from old ways, yes, and
then it was appropriated by heaps of black queer mob
to mean sexy, So lots of like queer black men
are like are you look body? And it became really
popular and I was like, stuff you mob, I'm the
original Boudio. I'm a lesbian and I'm Larakia. So that's
(34:14):
my tag, that's your Instagram.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah easy. Well we've got to connect and then hopefully
how long is the show? And banks don't going to
go for I.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Was going into next year and we've got biggest more
programs and stuff over summer, so have a look on
that website. We've got like Salvage doing DJing and he's
curating like a whole day's worth of events, which is
his first time doing it. So come and support him.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yes, I think it's important to support community. So on
that note, thanks for coming all the way over the
other side of the harbor. Oh right the city to
have a yarn with me. It's if we don't get
many young deadly black women, and I've the queer conversation
for young black fellows that are navigating their identity. There
(34:57):
was one thing I want to ask you really quickly. Yeah,
I had Felicia.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Fox, Yes, Deadly Felicia, and.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That was one of the best performing that rated and
episodes and downloads. One of the best out of about
one hundred and thirty episodes was full and I thought, oh,
can I drop this yarm? I can't censor the arm
because I'm asking people to just be themselves and feel comfortable.
And next minute, I was thinking, how's the audience, my audien,
(35:26):
it's gonna respond. When I dropped that episode, I was worried.
And it was one of the best yarns in the
last four years. So I know that we've got a
lot of people that are probably big supporters of our
mob and also queer mob. Is there any advice? What
would you share with any of our young mob that
try to navigate their identity.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Go gently on yourself. I think like there's a lot
of expectation about you know, looks, and you know who
you should hang out with, what you should wear, what
you should listen to. And then my wife sits and
crochets every night, and I have an acqu escaping hobby,
but I do all this deadly stuff. I think it's
about really understanding yourself and allowing yourself to go through
(36:09):
those chapters of reinvention. You know, I'm not going to
go back to wearing tied shirts with the mohawk anytime soon,
but I needed to go through that. It's okay to
change and find the people that support you in that
change is the most important thing because a lot of
people are going to feel very uncomfortable that you're changing.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah. I love that. Well, that's a deadly way to
wrap up the yarn. Thank you, Thank you so much
for coming and having a yarn. I'll see a garma
next year. Oh got we got on the garma. Yes,
look all you mob that have been listening. I hope
you've enjoyed this episode, Until next time, by for now.
If you'd like any more on today's guest, please visit
(36:52):
our show notes in the episode description. A big shout
out to all you Deadly Mob and allies who continue
to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your feedback means
the world. You can rate and review the podcast on
Apple and Spotify, or even head to our socials and
YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd love to
(37:12):
hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast is produced
by Clint Curtis
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magical Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the land we have recorded this episode on.
We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land where you,
the listener or viewer are tuning in from. We would
like to pay our respects to our elders past and
present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal land and
(00:26):
always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's what I love about art. It gives that opportunity
to have those discussions and not being seen as angry
or violent or you know, protesting. Is it really protesting
when you're protesting your own body or controversial?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail.
Welcome back to another episode of the Black Magical Podcast.
I am here on Cameragle Country, which is in beautiful
Sydney also known as the Orination. I can't wait for
(01:05):
you to meet my next guest, and we've got a
few things that we were to unpack and even made
some connections before we press record. So I can't wait
for you to share a little bit about yourself. Sis
tell our listeners if you don't mind, and have yours
on YouTube, your name, your mob and a bit about
where you grew up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, hello and thank you for having me. My name
is Kobe and Edgunn and I'm a girl from Darwin.
I grew up in Darwen and moved when I was
about five years old to Adelaide. I've got biggest mob
family and lots of different I guess races, all the
naughty and ice and everything with a bit of spice.
So Filipino, Aboriginal from lat three different language groups, English, Austrian, Irish, Scottish,
(01:50):
a bit of everything. That melting pot of Darwin, you
know it is.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It is if people say that the Darwin's a melting
pot and.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Here I am. Yeah, yeah, big family adlade.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
You said you grew up.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, when we moved to Adelaide or Tasmania for a year,
weirdly because my stepfather he grew up there and his
grandfather passed away. So we stayed there for like a
year and then moved to Adelaide and that's where I
did my high school and university studies, and then wanted
to come to Sydney because I'm a big Boodoo queer
(02:24):
and wanted to run a mark.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh my god, my family down here too, do you
know Caira comes sing.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I do know Caira. Yeah, she works up with Marley there. Yeah,
she's Brenda's niece, Brenda Crofts niece. Yeah, I know her
from around the track. She does deadly work over there.
She's clear too, one of our biggest mob queer to
days around here.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, I marched to Marti Grass with her, that's deadily first.
It was actually a dream of mine to get on
that parade, but I just didn't want to be on
anyone's float. So I was on the float that actually
won for the best float, which one was. It was
the memorial real float okay, yeah, for a brother boy
who passed away. Yes, I was on that one. Yeah,
(03:09):
and my brother Greg Phillips was a queen on the
front of it. But my yeah, my lot of my
family and community here. I grew up partying in Oxford Street.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I didn't get that, like they closed that down before
I could.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Like, well, I was here then and it was the best.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
That's why I came. Because my uncle was just like
you know, uncle Gary Lee, his beautiful uncle, great great
artist as well. And he yeah, when I was younger,
he was I was had like mohawk and wearing like
butch clothes and stuff. And he's like, but I know
you're not real feminine. But I know you're not real
butch either, So gave me Tiffany jewelry and he's like,
(03:48):
you can be a bit of a mix of both,
you know. And I'm like, thanks uncle, and he's like,
you need to go to Sydney. I grew up in
Sydney and go run on. Yeah. And then I was like,
all right, oh, come Sydney, lock out laws, no party.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
In COVID, I know.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So it's adown woman, I'm married. Oh good, I did it.
You did it.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
You didn't need the night live.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No. I came to the Big Pond, I found myself
a fish and said, you're not related. No, No, she'.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
White because of the bloody stolen generation. Right, but we're
here today, and I know that you're doing a lot
of work in so many different spaces. Yeah, and you're
representing out there in Bankstown all over the shop, but
living here in Redfern.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, living in Redfern. I've lived all over. When I
moved to Sydney, I was working at the Art Gallery
of New South Wales. I was working for Tracy Moffin.
Actually she was doing the Venice BIONALI and I was
one of her assistants. So I moved over and then
started working for the art gallery there for like eight years.
And during that time, when you land in Sydney you
just end up, you know, hop scotching around the city.
(05:00):
It's really hard to find your roots. So I lived
in Red fan fresh Water, over this side and then
all over you know, Australia Street in Merrickville there with
all the queers and all the lovelies there. My local
pub was super queer. I loved it. Just a hop,
skip and jump away from my house. I could walk
home at two o'clock in the morning and be right
(05:21):
yeah and have biggest mob fun with everyone. And then
now I'm back in Redfern. I lived in Red Fernd
with my one of my sister girls, Nicole Monks, and
she's an artist. She had a little boy, little boy,
Bitty Biddy, at five years old, and she's like, well,
if you can deal with a kid, you can come
live with me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm right with kids.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I got a lot of mob.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I'm right. She's like, well, in Sydney, most people
don't want to live with five year old kids, and
I'm like, oh, I don't give.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
A stuff, Like I serious side.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I moved in and first thing I cooked for her.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Now you're auntie.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, chili mudcrab, first meal. And now that kid loves
his seafood, he's full. I'm getting him like Darwin Palette. Yeah,
making sure.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Because there's that kind of Malaysian Indonesian. There's even Chinese
Japanese influence.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, we're Asian.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah. We traded with Silhouesi for two hundred years prior
to colonization. You know, tripang ce cucumber that went all
the way up to China and back. And people don't
talk about that because that is a really amazing piece
of evidence of us being, you know, a very well
developed economy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
We had training, having international relations.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
We had international relations for two hundred years prior to colonization.
The mccasson mob will come over six months of the
year and set up camp. Our word for money is
rule pier, our word for suscils, breast for milk, word
for milks.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So their language became part of our local dialects and languages.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And culture to like, you know, they traded still with us.
You know, steal all the there's like heaps big history
of steel cloth, tobacco, you know, marriage as well. You
know they went over there and married up and had
family and were buried there and biggest story there.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But there was a actual what do you call it
when there's a reunion. There was something in the early
nineties where the Darwin government flew over Indonesian people, about
six of them who were descendants of Abersham people, to
honor that trade.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yea, yeah, that relationship. Yeah, we still do it, Like
I went to Gama three two years ago now and
that Yeah, we had brother Abdi there. Abdi's an artist
and he came over and you know, did that ceremony
with the I think it was a good match mob
that he did it with. I can't remember, but you know,
that ceremony, so they you know, he did his dance
(07:47):
and then they had their reply and reenacted that meeting
on the beach that they'd usually have at the start
of a season.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Did we watch that plant? We were there that year,
so we've been a garment at the same time.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We've probably been walking down the street and have not
even seen each other.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Because Marrickville is like like the place to be.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, I'm quiet person unless someone puts the camera in
front of my face and change.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And the next minute, So what are you doing now?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Like you're curating still, So I'm curated by trade. So
I finished high school and I was the first person
from my family to finish high school. Immediate family, real
geek like Choristar school captain type geek, proper geeks.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, high achiever.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, I don't know b's and you know, a couple
of a's and caesar, but not hugely high achiever in
comparison to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But but what the still and in a leadership position?
Why are you at school?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I was in the you know, in the ring. I
want to go so yeah, and then yeah, my art
teacher was like, you should probably do an arts degree
because I was like, I don't know what I want
to do. I like sports or my brothers in art
do sports my art, but you know, you can't really
make money from art. Maybe I'll be a teacher. I've
got a scholarship to do a teaching did one term
(09:05):
of it and was like, I can't do this. If
this woman tells me that I have to do X
Y and z to teach a class. Like there's so
many different ways to teach something. It's just like you
can't do this, this and this, and I'm like I can.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I don't want to do that non completely different approach.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, so I worked to Adelaide High School for ages
when I was a kid or a kid eighteen nineteen,
twenty twenty one, and then yeah, it was like I'll
just try curating. Like it's this big, kind of scary
looking thing when you look at curators and what they do,
but Adelaide was a good place to do it. I
did Time and Do Festival, which was the inaugural festival
with Nikki Comeston there I was twenty four. That was
(09:43):
a huge amount of experience for me. You know, I
just roughed it like most art curators for the first
few years, you know, six different jobs and in one
calendar year and having to apply for grants and just
exhausted all the time. But nothing changes.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So there's no money as a curator, Like tell me.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It's like all arts practices, like there's no money until
you're the top like ten percent. And everyone wants to
wear something that you've made or been in a room
that you've curated.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I can. I didn't realize it. I know it's quite
I know the arts in Genue that a lot of
our mob in particular like Struggle.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I'm basically ADMIN last, so it's like yeah, same same,
different as admin.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah. So you're here in Sydney you're curating. Yeah yeah,
what are you working on now? Anything that ye can hear?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
There's so much we see. There's like the National Portrait
Gallery down in Canberra. I've just there's a show up
at the moment with Joan Ross and that's my first
show working with a non Indigenous person. Actually, she's Glaswegian
and really really fun. She's just a really good friend
of mine, and she confronts the colonial, colonial greed, the superiority,
superiority complexes that came on the shores with those big boats,
(10:57):
and how we've ended up where we are today because
of all of that. And she's really good fun. I
like working on with different people. And you know, we've
got that big Captain cook that's like worth several million
dollars hanging up next to one that she's made out
of krusty.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Carpet at the National Gallery.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
National Portrait Gallery, National Portrait Gallery.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Is this where there was also a Gina Ryan Hark piece.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Oh no, that's across the road, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
From me, and she was demanding that they remove it. Yeah,
and they were like, but this is.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Our it is Yeah, you can't. Sorry, it did it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It went all around the world, didn't it. And now
more people seen it. No one would have even known
that it was there.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Nah. And she didn't kick up stink and he does
portress like that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
That's what it gave the artist, this kind of global
spotlight and recognition.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I was like, yeah, Vincent's really lovely. He's quite shy sometimes,
but when he speaks he can be very you know,
his work's very serious as well. I've bumped into him
a fair bit.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Through his grandson. Yeah, great grandson, grandson, great grandson, great
grandson for Albert Namage. Oh yeah, wow, you've met him,
I've worked with talk about him. We do art tours.
We need to connect.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, that's been my career curators. That's what we do.
We do art tours and explain art and write lots
of stuff and do heaps of research. I basically make
a beautiful space for people to tell their stories and
try to be the translator between their world and the
rest of the world and the institutions all of it
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, you got to know how to navigate all of that.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah. So ten years working in institutions. Started at the
Art Gallery of South Australia, moved over to Art Gallery
of New South Wales and then Powerhouse. And I quit
working for institutions when the referendum happened and I just
didn't like the way that the world was, the politics
were treating our lives.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
And you know, yet again just who was showing up
for us?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, And I was like, I can't keep working for
government if government doesn't work for me. And I've learned
the playbook. I know what you're about. I respect you,
but you can't have any more of my time. Sorry.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
My mum said you what do you keep your friends
close but your enemy is closer. But she also said
to go and learn the white men's ways.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Well that's why I was there, and learn and.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Then come back and bring those skills or experiences back
to committees. So the Powerhouse is was it more independent?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Little brother of Gallery Evening South Wales? So back in
the day, all right, here we go. You want to
hear about histories? Now The first kind of ever gallery
or space that held objects in Sydney was in the
Botanic Gardens and Jonathan Jones made a really amazing work
for the Cawdor Public Art Projects bar Angle Jara and
it was about these this building and this building had
(13:47):
all of these artifacts from Polynesia and Melanesia. Huge building.
It was during the time when they first figured out
how to make electricity. It fire, biggest fire. Everything went
up only ash. That's it. It was that hot that
fire and all of these cultural artifacts died. And from
there they set up the Art Gallery Society, which became
(14:09):
the Art Gallery of New South Wales, which was the
whole heap of you know, people who were really keen
on the arts and wanted to collect art and wanted
Sydney to be a hub for art and be the
place to be in Australia for art. And then the
Powerhouse Museum was established as it's like brother and that's
more about the activity of doing, and you know they
look more at processes of things, so you know, one
(14:30):
of their first big projects was the Castle Hill site
of eucalyp plantations, and those eucalyp plantations they tested all
the different eucalypt types to see, Okay, which one's best
for oils, which one's best for tannins, which one's best
for making houses with all of that kind of scientific stuff,
And the Powerhouse holds that knowledge and then the art
gallery holds like, like I guess, a high art and
(14:52):
expression of art in that context.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, you see a lot of shows though at the Powerhouse,
like it's a creative space.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, it's about showing that process as well as the product,
which is why.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, because there's like the Prisbone Powerhouse, Sydney Powerhouse, and
they all kind of connected to the galleries.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
No, not always. Those guys are just like they kind
of established via state or territory, and they're not always.
They're all independent from from themselves and kind of had
different ways of establishing. But a lot of the time
it was to create places for Australian art and to
be housed. And the importance of that obviously goes back
(15:36):
to the collecting and collecting institutions and why do we collect?
Who decided to collect things? It wasn't you know, within
indigenous culture, we most of our objects are ephemeral for
a reason. You know, they're meant to die after time,
whereas this kind of where did the collecting methodologies come from?
Their scientific methodologies of collecting, you know, and then now
(15:59):
we have these beautiful art galleries and museums. But the
hard of it is we first started to collect scientific things,
including people's bodies, yes, and cultural artifacting heads, and that
was a part of the colonial process. I own this
object now, and that's a part of my collection. This
thing that where you think you own it because you've
got a sample of it, and that idea of ownership,
(16:22):
and that's a psychological thing. You know, blackfellows might have
a piece of land, but I don't feel like you
own it.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's like a paper. Yeah, you do, you own a property.
You own the piece of paper, not the actual land.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And what was colonization like it was you know, these
beautiful words written on a piece of paper that people
that spoken understood that language said all right, yeah, well
that makes sense to me, all right, it must be true. Yeah,
move on, let's not ask the person that's actually you know,
the person being subjected to this thought or idea.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And this is the beauty of art, right, that representation
still retelling, you know, keeping history alive and keeping people accountable,
and I think that's an issue. It isn't issue. I
don't think in this country where there's a massive denial
of our history, our shared history.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I think that's about.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That you must get so much.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's an intellectual field, so it's seemed different like so
I think R and B is an intellectual field, but
it's not necessarily appreciated as such by you know, the
white canon of what is important to their lives and
knowledge and systems and blah blah blah. But art is
art is something that we can kind of meet them
(17:36):
intellectually on a level. And it's a really good football
field for us to get a few good tackles in
because we can re evidence what they've written in their
books and put in their museums and say, hey, hold
on a second, right here, you wrote that in your
own words, and I've just made an artwork about it.
It's not political, it's just the truth telling. So that's
(17:56):
what I love about art. It gives that opportunity to
have those those discussions and not being seen and angry
or violent or you know, protesting. Is it really protest
when you're protesting your own body or controversial, it's not
So that's why I went into the arts because and
Richard Bell has this really great quote he's amazing political artist.
(18:18):
My uncle get out, well then fuck you would know
that he's like all of his art. Why did he
become an artist because he wouldn't get arrested for saying
what he wanted to say? Yeah, like he would have
was he become He's like everyone loves him. He's like
Aboriginal arts uncle. He's not just your uncle. We think
he's all our uncle.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
He's like, yeah, we love He's kind of led the way,
one of many people that have been part of a
So he's part of Proper Now collective and they're in
Brisbane and there's a whole of deadly people.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Marley's kind of like the Sydney version of the Sydney.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Version Proper Now that it's I don't know why though,
like still in twenty twenty four that people like uncle
Richard seen is Oh that's a bit provocative or that's
a bit radical. It's truth telling and that's the issue
in this country. People don't don't feel comfortable with some
of the truths.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, well, I guess that's what happens when you're not
used to I don't know, looking at your own privilege
and understanding why that might make you feel uncomfortable, Because
if you're uncomfortable from what he says, then maybe it's
because you should be self work.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, animal soul searching, that might need to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And it doesn't come from anywhere either. Like even his
bell serum is still popular today. You know, you know,
Aboriginal arts are white thing, is what it says, and
he's not wrong in a lot of senses. You know,
arnam Land Mob they change their barks from just being
wrapped to putting in pictures of the animals so that
Blunders could try and figure it out easier. So you know,
(19:59):
he altered, they altered those specific paintings to make it
easier for Blunder Mob, not for their own people. So
it was the white thing to do that and introduce
those things to try and make it easier for non
Indigenous people to understand us. Same with Uncle Vincent, then
Albert Namajera, his uncle, grandfather, gre great grandfather. He painted
(20:23):
watercolors in that vein so that it could be appreciated
for a like picturesque. He could paint dot paintings. He
chose not to for a reason because it's easier for
people to see, oh yeah, that's that range there, that
Mount Gillen Rangers if you're a blunder because you've seen
it with your eyes, than it is for you to
see it in their symbolic representations, which is dot paintings.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And that's when we talk about abational art. It's it's versatile.
People have adapted, it's evolved. It's not just traditionally not
painting anymore. So you see a lot of art these days,
like Honey, Judy Watson, it is work. Yeah, she's big
bronze sculptures. You've got Megan Cope over on you know,
(21:09):
Quenuba doing oysters and stuff. You've got weavers doing all
different art in the work that you're doing. Now, I
guess is there a massive art show happening, is it?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah? Well on Saturday, we've got that same, same different
show at Black Blacktown Art Center, which is a bi
Anali Blacktown Bnali actually, and that's a it's not a
huge show, but it's a it's it's more of a
local community. It's a local community like art center.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Quite like there's a lot of people that are engaged
with it. In the community.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, Yeah, that's why I want to see them. Yeah.
So usually most of my work I've done either like
you know, training people in desert, you know, how to
hang a painting, or you know, I like being at
bush most of the time. I'm not a curator who
likes to be you know, over in New York referred
to be in your color, thank you. And so when
(22:07):
I work in institutions, a lot of my work is
focused in cities and in big buildings that are you know,
made out of beautiful marble that I'm scared I'll slip on.
And so it's nice to go into the communities. And
I've lived in Sydney for nearly eight years now and
I haven't had the opportunity to work with the local
arts center. I did a show out the Bearded Tit,
(22:28):
my favorite gay little pub courts, sucking the black tit
it It's called that's what it was called. Yeah about
how you know, people need to get off the black
tit and maybe you know, start trying to find their
own resources and shit.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So some of these shows, right, that's taking a piss,
but it's humor.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
You need a bit of humor with all the trauma,
and that's kind of what I've been doing a lot
with my work, is focusing on joy, like I can.
You know, I've studied art for long enough to know
I can be real serious and give a two hour
presentation on the stey of an artist. But that doesn't
move me, and I don't think it moves many people anymore.
I think we need a little bit of humor and same,
(23:11):
same with different and different. You know. I was brought
on by Rachel Kang there, she's the director. She had
a bit of an idea about what she wanted to
focus on and look at ways that different people connect
and people connect with nature in different cultures. And I
was like, I was sitting in Darwin with my uncle Gary,
and I was like, it's all just same, same, different.
(23:32):
But I was like, okay, yeah, that's the title of
the show. Uncle. Then he's like well, I was like, Uncle,
what do you mean by that? And he's like, well,
you know black follows that were colonized here, we eat rice,
black follows on that side, they eat potatoes, same, same, different.
We all have these different ways of connecting with each other.
It's our ways of being doing annoying if you want
(23:53):
to get into like axiologies, you know, ontologies, the scientific
ways of looking at it and pistemologies jumping into that.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I reckon on colin jeez, that's cancer.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
On colleges. These big words they are, they're big words,
but it's just it's just the same, same different Like.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I love that the fact you're saying, you know, I
can talk this talk, go and present on this for
two hours and give a Harley intellect your account of
somebody's life, or just go out bush and just be
with mob.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I'd just rather be with Mob. Yeah, it's that's the
where I get my joy from. And so same same
different kind of looks at that I want people to
talk about. You know, I was talking about the Siluesi
in our Indonesian we're very Asian in Darwin. You know.
The only reason I reckon that we're called like, you know,
Australia is because of the colony. We actually are very Asian.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
We are in the Asian neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, we're closer to them Mob over there than we
are to you know, people down in Tasmania.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So we have that Asian culture and people forget about it.
And I'm like, you know, all the way that people
migrate here and then start families, especially people of color, same, same,
different a lot of the time, you know, getting away
from war, getting away from poverty, trying to start a
better life, whatever it is. And they have similarities within that. Also,
(25:15):
the way that we we pray, the way that we
religiously do things, you know, religious religion is you know,
the repetitive movements of something, you know, with intention. And
you know the way that we cook food together, the
way we prepare food. There's similarities. Blood chung is. We
could talk about blood chung for three hours, and you know,
(25:36):
just as a food, and how many different families have
different ingredients that they Salty plums, Yeah, saldi plums.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Everyone eats soldy plums most people in Yeah. I love
soldy plums.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
That was our lollies.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
My husband's Fijian and he loves salty plums.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I was like, what the heck? Olia, the lemon with vinegar,
some salt, nah, but not salty plums.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
No, SALTI plums are girl up on them.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Just had misstaple and your teeth for.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Red, teeth are red all the time, Yes, stains on
your hands for days. Taste Yeah, used to they were
our lollies, you know, we didn't have like you know, and.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
When they come from they're an Asian.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, they're they're dried plums, dried plums. They're dried preserved
plums with heaps of salt on them so they're super
sour and put them in your mouth and mango dried mango.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Pray for salty plums, I know.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, I pray for Soldi plums. I've got salty plumbs.
They're just sitting in there when I miss home.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, here in Sydney, there is a community here and
you're mentioning like it's rewarding and you get joy from
being with MOB. Do you ever get to go back home.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
All the time? Yeah? I do because I work in
the arts and well and Tea's kind of a hub
for you know, to scatter from there if you want
to go to art centers. So I go home a
lot because if I want to work with MOB, I
try to go out there and make sure that my
projects I'm going out there. I don't like being a
(27:03):
cute reader who just sits there and is like I
want five of those beautiful bags from that community by
this date. Thank you very much, like I need to
go there.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
And relationships and is there advice then for our mom
who might want to work in this space.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
What if there's so much work there? Honestly, there's so
much work. Come and join me. Honestly, I love it.
It's good fun. There's different ways that you can curate, Like,
I'm not a very serious curator. I like to have
fun with my work. I have a joke, you know.
I do some writing. I'm on stage sometimes you can
There's lots of different things you can do. I'm sitting
here talking to you. You know. I thought i'd be
a book bitch, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Not self in plot your own boss.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, I'm independent.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Independent.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I work part time for Agency Projects, which is just
me to move to advertise for its first CEO indeed CEO.
So please, if you know anyone who's deadly that wants
to come work with me and Leila and Mately and
the team we're looking for a deadly indigenous CEO. Really
are in Melbourne National Remit. I work part time for
(28:06):
them and then the rest of the time I do
things like this. Yeah, Bankstown working with Joan writing. I
did lots of writing. I love writing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And what do you do with the writing I write.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
About artists, Yeah, I write essays for artists, write diaristically
as well about people like you. Today you're like, I'm
not going to read your bio. You can introduce yourself. Yeah,
the credentials, that's a big part of like being advertising yourself.
I think as a person nowadays, I don't think it
comes well for black fellows at all. Yeah, I don't
(28:37):
do it. I've refuse to do it. You know, some
will sit there and to you and be like I
did this and I did that, and like you can
google me if you really want to, but maybe just
get to know me as a person and if you
like me, then work with me.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well that's the thing, right, relationships.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, and I prefer those things. And you know, just
the kind of credentials freaks me out a little bit,
so I try to go away.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's a kind of borderline where you're big noting it is.
I know, when you're growing up in community, you kind
of I don't know, there's something about our culture where
there's this kind of humbleness about it.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You can't pretend like you're better than the person that
sits next to you, even if they.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Otherwise people said, we're we're supposed to come from Yeah,
it's no, that's not how we work for you.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So it's like, yeah, a bit weird trying to do curating,
but the curating is good fun. You get really good opportunities,
Like I've traveled so much, I've gotten to see so
many different parts of the world, had so many amazing opportunities.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Favorite country Is there a favorite country? It has to
be outside of this beautiful place.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Honestly, I just got I get home.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Nowhere else in the world you could go. That was
like reminded me of home.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Na I liked Singapore because people looked like me, and
I like their food, like they have amazing food. I
could just live there and eat all day every day. Yeah,
that was good fun.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, my kids are looking for the next holiday.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Oh is that what we ask So they're asking.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
One wants to go to Singapore, one wants to go
to Thailand, and the other one wants to go to Japan.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So I've been to Japan. Japan's good too. Yes, that's
real deadly. Yes, that's freak out though, like it's not
for like, you know, going into nature or anything. Yeah,
you want to go to all the big mulls and
stuff and eat all the food. Yeah, and then Singapore
a bit same, but they've got like it's freaky city
because it's real multicultural. It's kind of like you know
how Venice was like a you know, a port for
(30:22):
people to come in and out of. It's a bit
like that, and but heaps of Asian mob. So it's like,
I don't know, I've traveled overseas to plenty of places,
but I'm like racially ambiguous, like people can't pick me
like from and so it's like being around places where
I can blend in weirdly, like yeah, another rada.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
We went to Belgium with my wife a couple of
weeks ago, and I did not like it at all.
It was just different liken, Like I just didn't enjoy it.
I'm like, no birds, no trees, like no one had
dogs walking down the street. I don't know, just weird.
Just everything was brick and beer. It's slat, and I'm
like that's good, Like you've got beautiful the culture.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Here, that's part of that's the that's what they do.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I don't want a street market, not a pub, I
don't know, So yeah, that's what I like I guess preference,
personal preference.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I just I know that a lot of listeners are
going to be like blown away that you've makes people
just kind of don't think blackfellows can do what you do,
can do what I do, travel to twenty different countries,
you know, Like there's so limited. A lot of people
are very limited. They're thinking of what we can do
(31:31):
and achieve, and it's sounded one thing, but at the
same time doesn't bother me.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I'm just flukin as this, Like honestly, I've been fluking
it since day one.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I keep going that plan.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I just do what I love to do. I try
and challenge myself, and you know, if someone says that
I'm stupid, I try and prove them wrong, which is
probably why I ended up very successful academically, you know.
But now I'm in my thirties and I'm moving out
of that and I'm comfortable. You know, I've proven to
myself that I can get these really good jobs and
(32:02):
go and do all that is really deadly things. And
now I just want to work with mob again and
young people again and be like it's hard work, but
it's fulfilling work, and there's heaps of jobs out there
in the arts. It's a really good space for you
to work on yourself and your community as well, because
you have to. When you're working in arts, you're not
doing a skilled job for hire. You're talking about something
(32:25):
that belongs to you, your identity, and you belong to
that community as well. So it can also be really
fulfilling moralistically for yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Getting people to reconnect if they're not connected to community.
That's probably a good way to wrap up the art
because a lot of our mob especially that come to
the big cities, a lot of them don't come with
much family or some thought and they've got to start
from scratch. So I hope that some of the people
that are listening are inspired about what you've been doing
(32:56):
and all the things you've achieved. And you're only in
your thirties. I'm like far but I don't get to
meet many people here that are in Sydney that are
doing the things that you've done. And I think listeners
are probably thinking, wow, where have you been? How do
we connect? So do you have a website? How do
people reach out to you on your socials?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, you can jump on my Instagram. It's which means
associ in Lalarakia language or old people, it means something else.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, how do you spell it?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
B u d ju? Would you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You know you know what a budgigin is.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's all purpose.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
When you went in Brisbane right when you're Bourdill your ship,
you gam it? So where people going, hey are you Budgell?
When I was like under the Murray School leaving Redford,
I'm like, am I bud? What do you mean? Am
I bud?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
So there was this is going to make you laugh?
So means vagina in Larakia from old ways, yes, and
then it was appropriated by heaps of black queer mob
to mean sexy, So lots of like queer black men
are like are you look body? And it became really
popular and I was like, stuff you mob, I'm the
original Boudio. I'm a lesbian and I'm Larakia. So that's
(34:14):
my tag, that's your Instagram.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah easy. Well we've got to connect and then hopefully
how long is the show? And banks don't going to
go for I.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Was going into next year and we've got biggest more
programs and stuff over summer, so have a look on
that website. We've got like Salvage doing DJing and he's
curating like a whole day's worth of events, which is
his first time doing it. So come and support him.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yes, I think it's important to support community. So on
that note, thanks for coming all the way over the
other side of the harbor. Oh right the city to
have a yarn with me. It's if we don't get
many young deadly black women, and I've the queer conversation
for young black fellows that are navigating their identity. There
(34:57):
was one thing I want to ask you really quickly. Yeah,
I had Felicia.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Fox, Yes, Deadly Felicia, and.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That was one of the best performing that rated and
episodes and downloads. One of the best out of about
one hundred and thirty episodes was full and I thought, oh,
can I drop this yarm? I can't censor the arm
because I'm asking people to just be themselves and feel comfortable.
And next minute, I was thinking, how's the audience, my audien,
(35:26):
it's gonna respond. When I dropped that episode, I was worried.
And it was one of the best yarns in the
last four years. So I know that we've got a
lot of people that are probably big supporters of our
mob and also queer mob. Is there any advice? What
would you share with any of our young mob that
try to navigate their identity.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Go gently on yourself. I think like there's a lot
of expectation about you know, looks, and you know who
you should hang out with, what you should wear, what
you should listen to. And then my wife sits and
crochets every night, and I have an acqu escaping hobby,
but I do all this deadly stuff. I think it's
about really understanding yourself and allowing yourself to go through
(36:09):
those chapters of reinvention. You know, I'm not going to
go back to wearing tied shirts with the mohawk anytime soon,
but I needed to go through that. It's okay to
change and find the people that support you in that
change is the most important thing because a lot of
people are going to feel very uncomfortable that you're changing.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah. I love that. Well, that's a deadly way to
wrap up the yarn. Thank you, Thank you so much
for coming and having a yarn. I'll see a garma
next year. Oh got we got on the garma. Yes,
look all you mob that have been listening. I hope
you've enjoyed this episode, Until next time, by for now.
If you'd like any more on today's guest, please visit
(36:52):
our show notes in the episode description. A big shout
out to all you Deadly Mob and allies who continue
to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your feedback means
the world. You can rate and review the podcast on
Apple and Spotify, or even head to our socials and
YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd love to
(37:12):
hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast is produced
by Clint Curtis
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