August 27, 2024 • 29 mins
This episode is proudly brought to you by ANZ. A new series of conversations with different mob around the country to yarn about, meaningful career opportunities within ANZ, building the capacity of Indigenous businesses and organisations, and helping individuals in the broader community to achieve financial wellbeing and resilience. If you’d like to know more about how ANZ can help improve your financial wellbeing, or help you start, run or grow your business, visit anz.com or call 13 13 14.
✨ Empowering Indigenous Futures: Navigating Careers and Culture 🎧✨
Join us for Episode #155 of the Black Magic Woman Podcast as I yarn with Kylie Cummings, Head Of Technology - Commercial Division at ANZ! 🌟 Hear about Kylie’s inspiring journey as an Aboriginal woman in tech, her commitment to empowering First Nations communities, and the transformative initiatives at ANZ, like BlackCard training and programs like Deadly Coders. 💻✨
We dive deep into the impacts of colonialism, the emotional journey of heritage discovery, and the power of cultural education. Kylie also shares valuable insights on work-life balance, and the importance of supportive mentors and family.
🖤 Tune in now to hear how Kylie is making a difference and championing Indigenous excellence!
Recommendations throughout this episode: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyliecummings/
https://news.anz.com/posts/2023/07/anz-news-indigenous-leadership-naidoc-kylie-cummings
Call ANZ’s dedicated Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander customer support line on 1800 037 366 https://www.anz.com.au/support/contact-us/customer-support-line/
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Opportunities https://www.anz.com.au/careers/programs/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-opportunities/
For general enquiries visit anz.com or call 13 13 14 When we reference ANZ in this episode, we are referring to Australia and New Zealand Banking Group operating in Australia and New Zealand. Given the nature of this podcast, all comments are general in nature and do not take into account the listeners’ financial circumstances, goals or objectives. Please think about what is right for you and seek independent advice.
Website: www.blackmagicwoman.com.au
Follow us on Instagram - @blackmagicwomanpodcast The Black Magic Woman Podcast is hosted by Mundanara Bayles and is an uplifting conversational style program featuring mainly Aboriginal guests and explores issues of importance to Aboriginal people and communities. Mundanara is guided by Aboriginal Terms of Reference and focusses more on who people are rather than on what they do.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mundanara Bayles (00:03):
Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the
land we have recorded this episode on. We also acknowledge
traditional owners of the land where you, the listener or
viewer, are tuning in from. We would like to pay
our respects to our elders past and present and acknowledge
that this always was Aboriginal land and always will be
(00:24):
Aboriginal land.
Intro (00:26):
This episode is proudly brought to you by ANZ, a
new series of conversations with different mob around the country
to yarn about meaningful career opportunities within ANZ, building the
capacity of indigenous businesses and organizations, and helping individuals in
the broader community to achieve financial well- being and resilience.
(00:51):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mundanara Bayles.
Mundanara Bayles (01:00):
Welcome back to another deadly episode of the ANZ Black
Magic Woman Partnership series. I am excited to be able
to bring you a deadly yarn by a deadly sister. This
yarn is an opportunity to hear from some of our
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff or employees at ANZ,
(01:21):
just hear about their journey and some of the things
that they've been working on in the business which I
think is really important, especially for a lot of our
community members that might be thinking of opportunities in ANZ,
or even if you are working in the business it
would be good for you to even reach out to
people like Kylie Cummings. So, sis, thank you so much
(01:43):
for jumping on the podcast. If you don't mind, can
you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your
mob and where you grew up. And I always say this,
is there anything that we can't find on Google?
Kylie Cummings (01:54):
Can't find on Google, there's a lot. Thanks, Mundanara. Yeah, so
start with my mob. I live in the Mornington Peninsula,
and I have two young kids, similar ages to some
of yours, 8 and 11, Lockie and Maisie, and my
lovely husband, Ricky Haywood. So we live on a beautiful
space up there, just overlooking the water, so that's nice.
(02:16):
We built out there a long time ago. But yes,
I am the domain lead for technology for the commercial
bank, and so I've been working at ANZ now for... my five-
year anniversary's October. So yeah, we've been doing a lot
of great work from a technology point of view, but
I was really looking forward to this conversation so I
(02:36):
could share some of the stuff we're doing to support
our First Nations people and how I'm trying to give back.
Mundanara Bayles (02:41):
Yep, deadly. So I'm going to go back one step now because
you're telling me when you was about 10, and this
is the kind of yarns that we have when we
catch up, and it's part of that relationship building of
getting to know each other, and I think it's a
good opportunity for non- Aboriginal people to understand some of
the impacts of colonialism and past government which the Stolen
(03:04):
Generations was part of, the act or policy to remove
Aboriginal children from their families and to assimilate us into
white society and put into institutions or out on missions
and refused a lot of things in terms of just
basic and essential human rights which is to be able
(03:25):
to stay with our families and to stay on our
country and to practice our culture and to speak our
language. So your family were impacted?
Kylie Cummings (03:33):
Yeah, massively so. So as we were talking earlier, I
found out that I had Aboriginal heritage when I was
10, and it wasn't widely talked about in my family
because my grandmother was taught to hide it because they
were worried they were going to be taken. My nana,
if anybody asked, would say we were... What was it?
Mundanara Bayles (03:57):
Egyptian?
Kylie Cummings (03:58):
Egyptian.
Mundanara Bayles (03:58):
Maltese.
Kylie Cummings (03:59):
Maltese Egyptian.
Mundanara Bayles (04:00):
Yeah.
Kylie Cummings (04:01):
Yep. That was a-
Mundanara Bayles (04:01):
Not Black Irish or Spanish or Indian. So my nan
assumed the identity of an Indian woman to keep her
children, my mother.
Kylie Cummings (04:09):
Yeah. And we had a similar story. So when you
said that, it was maybe on our Black Card training,
all of a sudden I had an epiphany because literally
I think a month before, my dad and I had been doing ancestry.
com and we kind of were mapping our family tree.
And so we knew our grandfather, Joe Johnson, was half-
(04:29):
caste and his father-
Mundanara Bayles (04:32):
Was that written on the documents, half- caste?
Kylie Cummings (04:34):
Yes. And so it was this, he was born in
Newcastle. It was really before ancestry. com. It was really hard
to track down the history. And so we found his documents.
He actually served in Gallipoli as well. So we had
his war records, but all of this was really hard
to find, and we also, with my-
Mundanara Bayles (04:56):
It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
Kylie Cummings (04:58):
Ah, and it's an impossible jigsaw puzzle as well.
Mundanara Bayles (05:00):
Yeah, they've literally made it next to impossible for mob
to find their family.
Kylie Cummings (05:07):
Well, and this is the thing, I'm still learning because
I think you asked me once who's my mob, I
still don't don't know who my mob is. I haven't had
the chance to follow it up. One of these days
Dad and I will do the work and we'll find it
out. But all we know is that my great- grandfather
was born in Newcastle. The reason he's easier to find
(05:28):
the most though is because he was the first Aboriginal
to play VFL football in Australia. So he played in
two grand finals in 1904 and 1905 for Fitzroy. So he's easily
searchable because-
Mundanara Bayles (05:43):
And he identified as Aboriginal back then?
Kylie Cummings (05:45):
Back then he did, yes.
Mundanara Bayles (05:47):
Okay.
Kylie Cummings (05:47):
So it wasn't until, I think, I'm not sure when
it would've happened, but my nana at some point was
told basically to tell people that she was Maltese Egyptian.
It wasn't until, so there was this article coming out
in the paper when I was I'd say about 16.
So it was when my brother was playing footy for
(06:07):
Fitzroy, but an article was coming out in The Age
of four generations of AFL Aboriginal footballers, and that's when
it all came out because my dad hid it, no
one knew, my brothers would hide it. I was a
bit different, as you can imagine. When I found out
I had Aboriginal heritage, I went to school and I
told everybody at show- and- tell that I was Aboriginal,
(06:29):
I was so proud, and pretty much that's the way
I spent my whole entire life. My family thought I
was crazy. When that article came out, my dad rang
my nana because he knew her sensitivity around it, and
the thing she said to him, he remembers it clearly.
She said, " Okay, darling, but just be careful. If the
government come to your door, don't let them in." And
(06:49):
my dad didn't-
Mundanara Bayles (06:50):
That's the trauma.
Kylie Cummings (06:52):
Well, Dad didn't even know what she meant because my
dad hadn't grown up with that kind of fear.
Mundanara Bayles (06:59):
Yeah, it's so far removed from your experience and your dad's
experience as whitefellas.
Kylie Cummings (07:04):
Yes. And if you met my dad, I think we
were talking about my nana last night, and she was
this short little lady, about five foot nothing with really
tight black curls, beautiful brown eyes, but because her mum
was Irish she was like pale as a ghost. My
dad's very similar coloring so wasn't actually... My dad told
(07:26):
me recently his story. He actually went to his uncle
because it wasn't discussed, and he went to his uncle
when he was playing footy and he said, " Uncle, people
keep on telling me I'm Italian, I'm this, I'm that. I don't
know who I am. Who am I?" Because they wouldn't
talk about it.
Mundanara Bayles (07:42):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (07:43):
And he went to his uncle, he went, " Who are
we? Where's our heritage?" And so my uncle then told
him, but I think my dad would've been about 16, 17,
maybe 18, something along those lines. And it's a big
thing of knowing your identity. We didn't know, and I
still don't know, and I'm really interested to find out,
(08:03):
so the more conversations we have, the more I learn.
Mundanara Bayles (08:05):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (08:06):
The story around your nana, about that Indian heritage, so
on the ancestry. com, it had that my great- great-
grandfather, which was interesting, was Indian, but he had two
white parents on ancestry. com, and I'm like, " How does
that work exactly?"
Mundanara Bayles (08:25):
Well, they adopted him. He must have been adopted by
the two white parents.
Kylie Cummings (08:28):
Must have. Yes. We don't know. And so we tracked, they go
back to England, but yes.
Mundanara Bayles (08:34):
You can't pinpoint your country and your connection to community.
Kylie Cummings (08:39):
No.
Mundanara Bayles (08:40):
Not yet.
Kylie Cummings (08:41):
Not yet. We'll get there.
Mundanara Bayles (08:42):
We'll get there. And I love this, Kylie, that we
get to have these yarns because a lot of Aboriginal
people, whether you've grown up Aboriginal or you found out
10 years ago or 20 years ago, some people might
feel a little bit defeated or deflated or lost or
there's too many blockers, like we got to this, dead
(09:06):
ends, can't find it, and some people give up. Some
people live their whole life searching for their mob.
Kylie Cummings (09:14):
Yeah, and I think it's one of these things where
I think I'm a... Family's important, hugely important to me.
We have an extremely large family, but it's putting the pieces
of the puzzle together because there's so much my dad
still doesn't know. When I listened to your Black Card
training, I said this to you last night, I had to go
(09:36):
off camera at one point because I ended up in
tears because I recognized, it was too familiar and it
was too emotional and too raw because there's a whole
piece of you you just don't know.
Mundanara Bayles (09:48):
Yeah. And you know what? I talk about that at
the Black Card training that I am actually the first
generation on my mother's side that was not forcibly removed
under government policy.
Kylie Cummings (09:58):
Wow.
Mundanara Bayles (09:59):
My mother was removed and her mother was removed, and
I've got five generations of my mother's side, my grandmothers
and my great- grannnies that were all institutionalized and sent
out to work as domestic servants, and I've got the
records there. I've got all of the evidence there about my
family history. So my mother had red hair and freckles.
(10:19):
Her name was Catherine Maria O'Reilly. Her dad was an Irishman.
Kylie Cummings (10:23):
O'Reilly, love it.
Mundanara Bayles (10:23):
And she just said, " I'm a Koori woman." She used
to say we're Gweagal but we didn't know where Gweagal country
was. And my mother passed 23 years ago, I was 18, and by the time
she passed, we knew that we were Wonnarua from the
Hunter Valley outside of Newcastle. So we could be related.
Kylie Cummings (10:41):
We could.
Mundanara Bayles (10:42):
We could be.
Kylie Cummings (10:44):
All of a sudden a lot would make sense.
Mundanara Bayles (10:45):
Yeah. We just clicked when we first met, and I
didn't even know Kylie was an Aboriginal woman.
Kylie Cummings (10:52):
No. I was always very proud of it, and so
it's hilarious, when you say you don't tick the box,
I feel like I tick it twice.
Mundanara Bayles (10:58):
You let everyone know.
Kylie Cummings (10:59):
Yeah, I let everybody know.
Mundanara Bayles (11:00):
Yeah, you're not undercover at all.
Kylie Cummings (11:01):
I don't live in fear about it. I'm extremely proud about
it, and there's very few people who have been able to intimidate
me about it, but there have been a few.
Mundanara Bayles (11:08):
Because you're strong within who you are in your own identity.
Kylie Cummings (11:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mundanara Bayles (11:13):
I'm strong in my identity, but I could tell you
now, Kylie-
Kylie Cummings (11:16):
It's different though.
Mundanara Bayles (11:16):
Sometimes, there's sometimes, and I can navigate public spaces and
no one knows I'm Aboriginal, sometimes I try and fly under the
radar, sometimes just to have a normal day so I
don't have to do cultural awareness with an Uber driver.
Kylie Cummings (11:33):
Oh god.
Mundanara Bayles (11:33):
And just fly under the radar. But anyways, in terms
of now, here you are at ANZ. I know that you've been on
a journey within the business and been kicking some goals.
Kylie Cummings (11:45):
Try.
Mundanara Bayles (11:45):
And I just want to say thank you for bringing
me in not that long ago to do a half-
day session in person with a senior leadership group. That
was pretty deadly.
Kylie Cummings (11:58):
No, that was great. Look, I'm constantly championing for people
to do the Black Card training because regardless of... and
obviously at ANZ we have a lot of people from
all different backgrounds.
Mundanara Bayles (12:09):
That's Australia, 300 different nationalities.
Kylie Cummings (12:12):
Well, and Melbourne's the mecca because it's... And this is
the funny thing is I've always grown up with all
different nationalities. So it's really important that people understand because
the other thing is is the Black Card training is
amazing but it's challenging because we learnt a certain history
(12:33):
at school, and then it's not that you give us
a different history, you give us a different slant on
the history.
Mundanara Bayles (12:41):
A different perspective.
Kylie Cummings (12:41):
There's a different perspective.
Mundanara Bayles (12:42):
An Aboriginal perspective.
Kylie Cummings (12:43):
Well, we were never taught the Aboriginal perspective. It was
just the English one, not that I remember anyway, so
mind you, I am getting older these days, but we
weren't taught it, and it was really nice. Actually my
boss said to me, he said, " Kylie, I can't wait."
He was really excited about it. " I can't wait," because he's
from Ireland and he found it really interesting because obviously
(13:06):
Ireland's been oppressed, right?
Mundanara Bayles (13:07):
Similarity, yeah.
Kylie Cummings (13:08):
So yeah, the whole team loved it. It was great. I
warned them, I said, " You go on a roller coaster
ride." I said, " I ended up in tears, but it's
a good roller coaster ride because at the end of
it you want to do something." And I think part
of when I did the Black Card training, I'd been
asked by Gerard Florian to represent group technology on The
(13:29):
Wrap. So I do that, which I love what the
team are trying to do there. Lou and her team
are just fantastic. And then it made me think about,
well, how can I give back. And so what I
talked to Lou about, and Gerard and Paul who are
highly supportive of it, is building out a technology career
pathway for indigenous students, young people.
Mundanara Bayles (13:50):
Students, kids.
Kylie Cummings (13:52):
Well, kids, it's because I'm 45, cut that out, but
anybody who's 18 now is a kid to me. But
it's about giving them the opportunity and showing them what
they can do. If you're good at maths or not
even, it's not even that. There are so many career pathways, but
I kind of thought of engineering career pathways because my
logic, this is kind of where my mind goes is
(14:14):
I went, " Right, how do we keep people with their
communities? Well, with technology, you can work from anywhere, especially
engineers, so coding. People can learn coding, but people can
teach coding themselves if they really want to. So how
do we enable that?" And so I actually met up
with a great organization recently, and we're just still in early
stages, but Deadly Coders, and we're working through what does that
(14:38):
look like, what does the cohorts need to look like,
how do we make it a success, because as you
can imagine, there's numerous things you need to think about
to make it a success. How do you support these
kids when they come into... Because what we're trying to
look at is Melbourne first, so how do you support
these kids, how do you make sure, like with all
grads, that they come in together, that they can support each
other, that they have the right mentors in place, that
(14:58):
we have the right feedback loops to make sure that
they're getting what they need, and because every kid's different.
We'll be looking at how do we bring in a
cohort of students, how do we support them, and then
how do we basically expand that out further. So that's
some of the work that we are doing. But also one of my
colleagues, Ben Anderson, can't take credit for this at all,
he's also looking at how do we actually extend career
pathways. So we've got a lot of indigenous Australians working
(15:21):
in our branches, and what we're looking at is how
do we actually bring them into technology. So he's looking
at career pathways for that as well. So there's a
lot of stuff that we are doing, and that's just a couple
of things that I'm across, so yeah, no.
Mundanara Bayles (15:34):
Yes. Well, there was one really good program that I got
to be part of, and you invited me with a
beautiful Māori sister as well who works in ANZ, and
I'm trying to think of her, Megan.
Kylie Cummings (15:47):
Megan Tapsell.
Mundanara Bayles (15:47):
I remembered your name and I've only met you twice,
but Megan and I were able to co- facilitate our
session to your grads. It was part of their onboarding,
their first week. Was it their second day in the business?
Kylie Cummings (16:03):
I'm not sure.
Mundanara Bayles (16:04):
Or third day?
Kylie Cummings (16:04):
But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because remember I was sick.
Mundanara Bayles (16:07):
You were sick. You got COVID.
Kylie Cummings (16:07):
Yeah, good old COVID. I was so upset. I was so looking forward
to it.
Mundanara Bayles (16:10):
Because you were going to moderate the panel discussion with Megan
and I.
Kylie Cummings (16:14):
I think I may have dodged a bullet there because
I don't think I would've got a word in edgewise.
Mundanara Bayles (16:19):
We done really well. We did do it within the
time. But you know what? For a lot of those
big corporates that are listening to this yarn, having your
100 or whatever grads in the room, starry- eyed, don't
know about reconciliation. So this was an opportunity for me
to talk about ANZ. There was one of your team
(16:40):
members that spoke about your Wrap before us anyway.
Kylie Cummings (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, yep. That would've been Luke.
Mundanara Bayles (16:43):
There was a good segue into Megan and I talking about indigenous
knowledges and storytelling and just weaving in our culture and
how we could influence the way that leaders, how leaders
within the business can be guided by Aboriginal knowledge and
(17:05):
Aboriginal ways of knowing, being, and doing. But this is
your grads.
Kylie Cummings (17:11):
Yeah, and this is the thing though that's important that you teach. It
was kind of like in the Black Card training, it was like I
had a bit of an epiphany moment. There were a
few things that you said within there around how you
introduce yourself. It's about where you're from, your family, that's who you
are, which I loved because I do that. Those people
(17:31):
who know me who will be listening to this know
that I lead with who are you. We have a
conversation first before we get down to business, and you go, " That's how
we do things."
Mundanara Bayles (17:41):
That's it. And so that's being relational.
Kylie Cummings (17:43):
Yes. And sometimes I get pulled up on that going, "
Kylie, you might want to just get down to business," but it's-
Mundanara Bayles (17:48):
Yeah, because they think traditionally that's-
Kylie Cummings (17:52):
You're wasting time.
Mundanara Bayles (17:53):
Yeah, but also your personal stuff and your professional is
two different things. So in the workplace-
Kylie Cummings (18:00):
be all business.
Mundanara Bayles (18:01):
It's all business, and we keep it professional and we
leave the kind of the human part of us and
the biggest part, most important part of us, kind of
out or unless we've really got good relationships then we
are more comfortable, but otherwise, it's strictly your titles and
your job function.
Kylie Cummings (18:19):
Yeah, that's usually the introduction.
Mundanara Bayles (18:19):
And the agenda, and we've only got half an hour.
Kylie Cummings (18:20):
Yeah. And so I loved when you, me, and Megan met, it was, right-
Mundanara Bayles (18:25):
We went straight in to-
Kylie Cummings (18:25):
Yeah, this is how we're going to introduce ourselves.
Mundanara Bayles (18:28):
In Aboriginal terms of reference, and Megan's like, " This is perfect."
Because for Maori people, and I'm not saying I'm an
expert in Maori culture, but very similar, my family, my
iwi, your tribe and your mountain and maybe your river
or the canoe, there was this whole introduction that was
(18:48):
based on where I'm from rather than this is what I do.
So Megan was like, " This is easy and we're just
going to do this," and we gave the grads an activity
for them to get to know-
Kylie Cummings (19:04):
Each other.
Mundanara Bayles (19:04):
... each other.
Kylie Cummings (19:05):
But it cements a relationship, and this is the thing
that I get told I'm good at is creating relationships,
and it's because I do it that way. It's not
actually anything that I do. It's not a deliberate thing. It's just
who I am, and also is-
Mundanara Bayles (19:20):
It's more natural. That's how you operate.
Kylie Cummings (19:22):
That's how I operate. And the other thing you said
to me around Aboriginal culture which I love was that
it's not hierarchical. There is no boss. All of a
sudden I went, " Oh, my life makes sense."
Mundanara Bayles (19:32):
Yes. Yes.
Kylie Cummings (19:33):
I don't think I've ever recognized hierarchy in my life. People are just people.
Mundanara Bayles (19:36):
You don't put yourself above-
Kylie Cummings (19:38):
No.
Mundanara Bayles (19:38):
Don't put yourself above other people.
Kylie Cummings (19:40):
No, never. Never have, never will. It's not how I'm built.
Mundanara Bayles (19:43):
I love this.
Kylie Cummings (19:43):
Everybody's equal.
Mundanara Bayles (19:45):
I love this. And it's interesting in terms of just
working in a ANZ, and quite hierarchical, right?
Kylie Cummings (19:51):
Banks can be yes.
Mundanara Bayles (19:52):
But just Western society, it's highly competitive, highly egotistical, and
it's all about the individual and quite judgmental.
Kylie Cummings (20:02):
Can be, yeah.
Mundanara Bayles (20:02):
So how do we bring these two worlds closer together? And
I think that's the beauty of Black Card training is
that we're teaching, or we're not teaching, we're educating people
about the tens of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge
that comes from this land and how do we utilize
this knowledge to inform how we lead or just in
(20:24):
terms of just how we be better human beings, how
do we be a good human.
Kylie Cummings (20:29):
And it's amazing how it did take everybody on a
roller coaster ride, and it does everybody which I love,
and I did say to you, I don't know how you've structured that, but you've structured it perfectly,
and I know there's method in the madness, I have
no doubts, but it's one of those things where you
take away from it what you... you can't remember everything, but
there was so much I took away from it and
(20:51):
so much of me all of a sudden made sense.
Mundanara Bayles (20:53):
Good, and that's what we love for Aboriginal people to
be able to make sense of who they are and
why they do, their habits, their values.
Kylie Cummings (21:02):
It made me start thinking about what was genetic versus
learnt, things like that. But it was just such an
amazing... So frankly, if you take on those things around
creating relationships, it does make you a great leader. If
you are a person who people can relate to, and I'm
really lucky, I have my boss, Paul White, he's an
(21:24):
amazing leader. He's very personable and he cares, genuinely cares.
And then you've got Gerard Florian, again, similar dynamic, right?
But I think it's one of those things around being
able to engage with your people if they know who
you are and they love the... the key thing that
(21:48):
I always say with culture within my area is if
people come in and they love who they work with and
they love what they do, it's not work and they
perform at their best.
Mundanara Bayles (21:58):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (21:58):
And so that's why, and you're right, banks, actually large
enterprises can be completely hierarchical, but it's about us as
leaders making sure we're more approachable.
Mundanara Bayles (22:08):
I'm going to ask you a question around being a
leader, right? You are quite senior in the business, in
this big hierarchy. Who's been your mentor? Is there anyone
in the business that's kind of supported you to be
able to take on these leadership roles?
Kylie Cummings (22:28):
I've had numerous, and it's kind of about your people,
right? I've got amazing female support within the bank. I
was acting in a CIO role for about five, six
months while Paul was actually coming into the role, and I don't
think I would've put my hand up for that unless
(22:48):
I had quite a few of my female colleagues went, "
You need to put your hand up."
Mundanara Bayles (22:52):
Yeah, you can this.
Kylie Cummings (22:52):
"You'd be great at it. You can do this." I'm like, " No, I can't." They're like, "
No, yes you can." So I did. I still remember
Gerard calling me up and asking me to fill in,
and Gerard's been a great support, Megan, his COO, great support. ANZ's got
some really great leaders who are really supportive. They want
to see you succeed. So I honestly feel very blessed. But
(23:14):
I will also say that I have an amazingly supportive husband-
Mundanara Bayles (23:18):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (23:18):
... who also tells me I can do anything. I
think we've had this conversation before, but my dad used
to be a footy coach, so I always joked that
I wasn't brought up, I was coached up. So my
dad's always like, " The only person stopping you is you."
All these things get bounced around in my head, but
my dad's also an amazing support as well. But I've
(23:41):
been very lucky. I've got a very tight- knit family.
My middle brother's the same. My eldest brother's, even though
he doesn't quite what I do for a living, it's very-
Mundanara Bayles (23:51):
You better know what she does, mate. She's a deadly woman.
Kylie Cummings (23:53):
Works in computers if you ask him.
Mundanara Bayles (23:56):
A bit more than that.
Kylie Cummings (23:57):
Yeah, just slightly. But yeah, no, I must admit I've
got... And my team. I've had probably a stressful year
around my health and my team have been amazing in
supporting me. When I'm not there, they get in, they
lean in. So I've got support everywhere. It's absolutely fantastic. So
I feel very blessed where I am.
Mundanara Bayles (24:16):
And that just leads into my last question, especially for
some of our younger Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women at ANZ. I know
there's a few blackfellas working at ANZ. I want them
to know that there are people like you in the business-
Kylie Cummings (24:29):
Absolutely.
Mundanara Bayles (24:29):
... that can support them or can have a coffee
with them. So reach out.
Kylie Cummings (24:34):
Please do.
Mundanara Bayles (24:36):
You're not alone, and sometimes it does feel quite isolating
and overwhelming when you're trying to navigate these big structures.
Kylie Cummings (24:43):
Of course it does.
Mundanara Bayles (24:43):
Whether it's ANZ or working at Qantas or in the government,
sometimes you do feel like you're alone when you don't
find your people.
Kylie Cummings (24:52):
And sometimes it's all it takes is a conversation. I
was literally having this conversation with someone else yesterday saying
what I learnt, and I wasn't always this way, and
I know people find this hard to believe, but in
my early twenties I was quite shy and now not
so much, but the thing that I figured out is
what's the worst thing that can happen. Ask for a
coffee, ask for advice, seek guidance.
Mundanara Bayles (25:16):
That's what we need. That's what we need, just that reassurance.
Kylie Cummings (25:20):
And some direction-
Mundanara Bayles (25:20):
And direction.
Kylie Cummings (25:20):
... from some people who have navigated it before. I
seek direction all the time. I'm constantly learning, and I'm
really lucky I have people I can ask. Same goes.
Feel free to reach out. I'm more than happy to
support. I've got quite a few people that not necessarily
that I officially mentor, but just reach out and ask
for guidance around their career. Happy to do it because
(25:41):
I've been there, done it, got the T- shirt.
Mundanara Bayles (25:42):
I love this. She's earned her stripes too, and she might
be able to pull a few strings. Maybe just go and have a
coffee and build that relationship. I think that's what a
lot of us just need is just knowing that we've
got some people in our corner that we can trust
and we can lean on when we're finding, even just
(26:02):
times when we're dealing with Sorry Business or there might
be some challenging things that are happening within our work
life, or even if we're studying because some might be
coming in as interns or trainees or grads.
Kylie Cummings (26:14):
It's always a juggle, and I constantly get asked this
because a lot of people know that I have two young kids. They're like, "
how do you do everything?" And I'm like, " Sometimes I
don't do everything well." But it's a juggle, right? It's
not impossible, and the thing that I encourage people to
do is take the leap. What's the worst thing that
can happen? And it's this whole thing of I think
(26:36):
a lot of, especially women and especially when at a
certain age, they feel like they have to choose between
their family and their career, you don't have to choose.
Mundanara Bayles (26:47):
You can do both.
Kylie Cummings (26:48):
You can do both. You just need to draw lines in the sand
which is more lines in... and actually, I got good advice
from Megan one day who said, " Kylie," she said, " I
came back from holidays and people had put in meetings
after five o'clock and I couldn't do them because I
drew a line in the sand." And then I kind
of went, " Well, if Megan can do it, I can do
it." So even I'm learning as we go, but it's
(27:10):
about having those conversations so you can learn from people
who've gone before you.
Mundanara Bayles (27:13):
There you go. And now you've heard it here on this
podcast. Boundaries are really good, having those boundaries.
Kylie Cummings (27:20):
Boundaries.
Mundanara Bayles (27:22):
Yes, but also just not being afraid to speak up
and say, " Actually, I've got this, or I am a
young mum, or I am supporting and looking after my
grandmother," like that relationship-
Kylie Cummings (27:33):
Everybody's human.
Mundanara Bayles (27:33):
But that relationship is so important.
Kylie Cummings (27:35):
It is, because you understand people and you know what
they're going through and you can support them.
Mundanara Bayles (27:38):
That's exactly it.
Kylie Cummings (27:39):
Because it's that whole thing of if people know you've
got their back, they absolutely work harder.
Mundanara Bayles (27:44):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (27:44):
They're more dedicated, more loyal, you don't get turnover employees.
It's this whole thing of it actually becomes a proper
team. It's an actual team. You support each other.
Mundanara Bayles (28:00):
Yeah, your family, they're your second family.
Kylie Cummings (28:03):
Second family.
Mundanara Bayles (28:03):
Your mob.
Kylie Cummings (28:03):
Well, you spend a lot of time with them.
Mundanara Bayles (28:06):
I'm really pleased that I've been able to connect with
you and that this conversation is actually part of the
Black Magic Woman ANZ Partnership series. So thank you so
much for coming on the podcast and just sharing with
all of us a little bit about who you are,
your journey. I'm sure that there's a lot there for
a lot of people, especially non- Aboriginal people as well,
(28:29):
to also learn about some of the challenges for us
as mob that are still trying to find our way,
but at the same time still very proud to be Black
and to be who we are.
Kylie Cummings (28:40):
And honestly, thank you so much for having me. I
have absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, as with our conversation
last night.
Mundanara Bayles (28:47):
To be continued.
Kylie Cummings (28:49):
And we will continue to have them. But if I
can say to everybody, if you haven't done the Black
Card training, please go do it. It's amazing. I just
encourage you to learn and lean in.
Mundanara Bayles (28:59):
Thank you.
Kylie Cummings (29:00):
No worries.
Mundanara Bayles (29:01):
Well, look, I hope you've enjoyed this deadly yarn. I told you it was going
to be a deadly yarn. Can't wait to bring you
the next episode. So until next time, bye for now.
Intro (29:12):
If you'd like to know more about how ANZ can help
improve your financial well- being or help you start, run,
or grow your business, visit ANZ. com or call 13 13 14.
Mundanara Bayles (29:26):
A big shout out to all you deadly mob and allies
who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your
feedback means the world. You can rate and review the
podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our
socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd
love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman Podcast
is produced by Clint Curtis.
Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the
land we have recorded this episode on. We also acknowledge
traditional owners of the land where you, the listener or
viewer, are tuning in from. We would like to pay
our respects to our elders past and present and acknowledge
that this always was Aboriginal land and always will be
(00:24):
Aboriginal land.
Intro (00:26):
This episode is proudly brought to you by ANZ, a
new series of conversations with different mob around the country
to yarn about meaningful career opportunities within ANZ, building the
capacity of indigenous businesses and organizations, and helping individuals in
the broader community to achieve financial well- being and resilience.
(00:51):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mundanara Bayles.
Mundanara Bayles (01:00):
Welcome back to another deadly episode of the ANZ Black
Magic Woman Partnership series. I am excited to be able
to bring you a deadly yarn by a deadly sister. This
yarn is an opportunity to hear from some of our
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff or employees at ANZ,
(01:21):
just hear about their journey and some of the things
that they've been working on in the business which I
think is really important, especially for a lot of our
community members that might be thinking of opportunities in ANZ,
or even if you are working in the business it
would be good for you to even reach out to
people like Kylie Cummings. So, sis, thank you so much
(01:43):
for jumping on the podcast. If you don't mind, can
you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your
mob and where you grew up. And I always say this,
is there anything that we can't find on Google?
Kylie Cummings (01:54):
Can't find on Google, there's a lot. Thanks, Mundanara. Yeah, so
start with my mob. I live in the Mornington Peninsula,
and I have two young kids, similar ages to some
of yours, 8 and 11, Lockie and Maisie, and my
lovely husband, Ricky Haywood. So we live on a beautiful
space up there, just overlooking the water, so that's nice.
(02:16):
We built out there a long time ago. But yes,
I am the domain lead for technology for the commercial
bank, and so I've been working at ANZ now for... my five-
year anniversary's October. So yeah, we've been doing a lot
of great work from a technology point of view, but
I was really looking forward to this conversation so I
(02:36):
could share some of the stuff we're doing to support
our First Nations people and how I'm trying to give back.
Mundanara Bayles (02:41):
Yep, deadly. So I'm going to go back one step now because
you're telling me when you was about 10, and this
is the kind of yarns that we have when we
catch up, and it's part of that relationship building of
getting to know each other, and I think it's a
good opportunity for non- Aboriginal people to understand some of
the impacts of colonialism and past government which the Stolen
(03:04):
Generations was part of, the act or policy to remove
Aboriginal children from their families and to assimilate us into
white society and put into institutions or out on missions
and refused a lot of things in terms of just
basic and essential human rights which is to be able
(03:25):
to stay with our families and to stay on our
country and to practice our culture and to speak our
language. So your family were impacted?
Kylie Cummings (03:33):
Yeah, massively so. So as we were talking earlier, I
found out that I had Aboriginal heritage when I was
10, and it wasn't widely talked about in my family
because my grandmother was taught to hide it because they
were worried they were going to be taken. My nana,
if anybody asked, would say we were... What was it?
Mundanara Bayles (03:57):
Egyptian?
Kylie Cummings (03:58):
Egyptian.
Mundanara Bayles (03:58):
Maltese.
Kylie Cummings (03:59):
Maltese Egyptian.
Mundanara Bayles (04:00):
Yeah.
Kylie Cummings (04:01):
Yep. That was a-
Mundanara Bayles (04:01):
Not Black Irish or Spanish or Indian. So my nan
assumed the identity of an Indian woman to keep her
children, my mother.
Kylie Cummings (04:09):
Yeah. And we had a similar story. So when you
said that, it was maybe on our Black Card training,
all of a sudden I had an epiphany because literally
I think a month before, my dad and I had been doing ancestry.
com and we kind of were mapping our family tree.
And so we knew our grandfather, Joe Johnson, was half-
(04:29):
caste and his father-
Mundanara Bayles (04:32):
Was that written on the documents, half- caste?
Kylie Cummings (04:34):
Yes. And so it was this, he was born in
Newcastle. It was really before ancestry. com. It was really hard
to track down the history. And so we found his documents.
He actually served in Gallipoli as well. So we had
his war records, but all of this was really hard
to find, and we also, with my-
Mundanara Bayles (04:56):
It's like a jigsaw puzzle.
Kylie Cummings (04:58):
Ah, and it's an impossible jigsaw puzzle as well.
Mundanara Bayles (05:00):
Yeah, they've literally made it next to impossible for mob
to find their family.
Kylie Cummings (05:07):
Well, and this is the thing, I'm still learning because
I think you asked me once who's my mob, I
still don't don't know who my mob is. I haven't had
the chance to follow it up. One of these days
Dad and I will do the work and we'll find it
out. But all we know is that my great- grandfather
was born in Newcastle. The reason he's easier to find
(05:28):
the most though is because he was the first Aboriginal
to play VFL football in Australia. So he played in
two grand finals in 1904 and 1905 for Fitzroy. So he's easily
searchable because-
Mundanara Bayles (05:43):
And he identified as Aboriginal back then?
Kylie Cummings (05:45):
Back then he did, yes.
Mundanara Bayles (05:47):
Okay.
Kylie Cummings (05:47):
So it wasn't until, I think, I'm not sure when
it would've happened, but my nana at some point was
told basically to tell people that she was Maltese Egyptian.
It wasn't until, so there was this article coming out
in the paper when I was I'd say about 16.
So it was when my brother was playing footy for
(06:07):
Fitzroy, but an article was coming out in The Age
of four generations of AFL Aboriginal footballers, and that's when
it all came out because my dad hid it, no
one knew, my brothers would hide it. I was a
bit different, as you can imagine. When I found out
I had Aboriginal heritage, I went to school and I
told everybody at show- and- tell that I was Aboriginal,
(06:29):
I was so proud, and pretty much that's the way
I spent my whole entire life. My family thought I
was crazy. When that article came out, my dad rang
my nana because he knew her sensitivity around it, and
the thing she said to him, he remembers it clearly.
She said, " Okay, darling, but just be careful. If the
government come to your door, don't let them in." And
(06:49):
my dad didn't-
Mundanara Bayles (06:50):
That's the trauma.
Kylie Cummings (06:52):
Well, Dad didn't even know what she meant because my
dad hadn't grown up with that kind of fear.
Mundanara Bayles (06:59):
Yeah, it's so far removed from your experience and your dad's
experience as whitefellas.
Kylie Cummings (07:04):
Yes. And if you met my dad, I think we
were talking about my nana last night, and she was
this short little lady, about five foot nothing with really
tight black curls, beautiful brown eyes, but because her mum
was Irish she was like pale as a ghost. My
dad's very similar coloring so wasn't actually... My dad told
(07:26):
me recently his story. He actually went to his uncle
because it wasn't discussed, and he went to his uncle
when he was playing footy and he said, " Uncle, people
keep on telling me I'm Italian, I'm this, I'm that. I don't
know who I am. Who am I?" Because they wouldn't
talk about it.
Mundanara Bayles (07:42):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (07:43):
And he went to his uncle, he went, " Who are
we? Where's our heritage?" And so my uncle then told
him, but I think my dad would've been about 16, 17,
maybe 18, something along those lines. And it's a big
thing of knowing your identity. We didn't know, and I
still don't know, and I'm really interested to find out,
(08:03):
so the more conversations we have, the more I learn.
Mundanara Bayles (08:05):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (08:06):
The story around your nana, about that Indian heritage, so
on the ancestry. com, it had that my great- great-
grandfather, which was interesting, was Indian, but he had two
white parents on ancestry. com, and I'm like, " How does
that work exactly?"
Mundanara Bayles (08:25):
Well, they adopted him. He must have been adopted by
the two white parents.
Kylie Cummings (08:28):
Must have. Yes. We don't know. And so we tracked, they go
back to England, but yes.
Mundanara Bayles (08:34):
You can't pinpoint your country and your connection to community.
Kylie Cummings (08:39):
No.
Mundanara Bayles (08:40):
Not yet.
Kylie Cummings (08:41):
Not yet. We'll get there.
Mundanara Bayles (08:42):
We'll get there. And I love this, Kylie, that we
get to have these yarns because a lot of Aboriginal
people, whether you've grown up Aboriginal or you found out
10 years ago or 20 years ago, some people might
feel a little bit defeated or deflated or lost or
there's too many blockers, like we got to this, dead
(09:06):
ends, can't find it, and some people give up. Some
people live their whole life searching for their mob.
Kylie Cummings (09:14):
Yeah, and I think it's one of these things where
I think I'm a... Family's important, hugely important to me.
We have an extremely large family, but it's putting the pieces
of the puzzle together because there's so much my dad
still doesn't know. When I listened to your Black Card
training, I said this to you last night, I had to go
(09:36):
off camera at one point because I ended up in
tears because I recognized, it was too familiar and it
was too emotional and too raw because there's a whole
piece of you you just don't know.
Mundanara Bayles (09:48):
Yeah. And you know what? I talk about that at
the Black Card training that I am actually the first
generation on my mother's side that was not forcibly removed
under government policy.
Kylie Cummings (09:58):
Wow.
Mundanara Bayles (09:59):
My mother was removed and her mother was removed, and
I've got five generations of my mother's side, my grandmothers
and my great- grannnies that were all institutionalized and sent
out to work as domestic servants, and I've got the
records there. I've got all of the evidence there about my
family history. So my mother had red hair and freckles.
(10:19):
Her name was Catherine Maria O'Reilly. Her dad was an Irishman.
Kylie Cummings (10:23):
O'Reilly, love it.
Mundanara Bayles (10:23):
And she just said, " I'm a Koori woman." She used
to say we're Gweagal but we didn't know where Gweagal country
was. And my mother passed 23 years ago, I was 18, and by the time
she passed, we knew that we were Wonnarua from the
Hunter Valley outside of Newcastle. So we could be related.
Kylie Cummings (10:41):
We could.
Mundanara Bayles (10:42):
We could be.
Kylie Cummings (10:44):
All of a sudden a lot would make sense.
Mundanara Bayles (10:45):
Yeah. We just clicked when we first met, and I
didn't even know Kylie was an Aboriginal woman.
Kylie Cummings (10:52):
No. I was always very proud of it, and so
it's hilarious, when you say you don't tick the box,
I feel like I tick it twice.
Mundanara Bayles (10:58):
You let everyone know.
Kylie Cummings (10:59):
Yeah, I let everybody know.
Mundanara Bayles (11:00):
Yeah, you're not undercover at all.
Kylie Cummings (11:01):
I don't live in fear about it. I'm extremely proud about
it, and there's very few people who have been able to intimidate
me about it, but there have been a few.
Mundanara Bayles (11:08):
Because you're strong within who you are in your own identity.
Kylie Cummings (11:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mundanara Bayles (11:13):
I'm strong in my identity, but I could tell you
now, Kylie-
Kylie Cummings (11:16):
It's different though.
Mundanara Bayles (11:16):
Sometimes, there's sometimes, and I can navigate public spaces and
no one knows I'm Aboriginal, sometimes I try and fly under the
radar, sometimes just to have a normal day so I
don't have to do cultural awareness with an Uber driver.
Kylie Cummings (11:33):
Oh god.
Mundanara Bayles (11:33):
And just fly under the radar. But anyways, in terms
of now, here you are at ANZ. I know that you've been on
a journey within the business and been kicking some goals.
Kylie Cummings (11:45):
Try.
Mundanara Bayles (11:45):
And I just want to say thank you for bringing
me in not that long ago to do a half-
day session in person with a senior leadership group. That
was pretty deadly.
Kylie Cummings (11:58):
No, that was great. Look, I'm constantly championing for people
to do the Black Card training because regardless of... and
obviously at ANZ we have a lot of people from
all different backgrounds.
Mundanara Bayles (12:09):
That's Australia, 300 different nationalities.
Kylie Cummings (12:12):
Well, and Melbourne's the mecca because it's... And this is
the funny thing is I've always grown up with all
different nationalities. So it's really important that people understand because
the other thing is is the Black Card training is
amazing but it's challenging because we learnt a certain history
(12:33):
at school, and then it's not that you give us
a different history, you give us a different slant on
the history.
Mundanara Bayles (12:41):
A different perspective.
Kylie Cummings (12:41):
There's a different perspective.
Mundanara Bayles (12:42):
An Aboriginal perspective.
Kylie Cummings (12:43):
Well, we were never taught the Aboriginal perspective. It was
just the English one, not that I remember anyway, so
mind you, I am getting older these days, but we
weren't taught it, and it was really nice. Actually my
boss said to me, he said, " Kylie, I can't wait."
He was really excited about it. " I can't wait," because he's
from Ireland and he found it really interesting because obviously
(13:06):
Ireland's been oppressed, right?
Mundanara Bayles (13:07):
Similarity, yeah.
Kylie Cummings (13:08):
So yeah, the whole team loved it. It was great. I
warned them, I said, " You go on a roller coaster
ride." I said, " I ended up in tears, but it's
a good roller coaster ride because at the end of
it you want to do something." And I think part
of when I did the Black Card training, I'd been
asked by Gerard Florian to represent group technology on The
(13:29):
Wrap. So I do that, which I love what the
team are trying to do there. Lou and her team
are just fantastic. And then it made me think about,
well, how can I give back. And so what I
talked to Lou about, and Gerard and Paul who are
highly supportive of it, is building out a technology career
pathway for indigenous students, young people.
Mundanara Bayles (13:50):
Students, kids.
Kylie Cummings (13:52):
Well, kids, it's because I'm 45, cut that out, but
anybody who's 18 now is a kid to me. But
it's about giving them the opportunity and showing them what
they can do. If you're good at maths or not
even, it's not even that. There are so many career pathways, but
I kind of thought of engineering career pathways because my
logic, this is kind of where my mind goes is
(14:14):
I went, " Right, how do we keep people with their
communities? Well, with technology, you can work from anywhere, especially
engineers, so coding. People can learn coding, but people can
teach coding themselves if they really want to. So how
do we enable that?" And so I actually met up
with a great organization recently, and we're just still in early
stages, but Deadly Coders, and we're working through what does that
(14:38):
look like, what does the cohorts need to look like,
how do we make it a success, because as you
can imagine, there's numerous things you need to think about
to make it a success. How do you support these
kids when they come into... Because what we're trying to
look at is Melbourne first, so how do you support
these kids, how do you make sure, like with all
grads, that they come in together, that they can support each
other, that they have the right mentors in place, that
(14:58):
we have the right feedback loops to make sure that
they're getting what they need, and because every kid's different.
We'll be looking at how do we bring in a
cohort of students, how do we support them, and then
how do we basically expand that out further. So that's
some of the work that we are doing. But also one of my
colleagues, Ben Anderson, can't take credit for this at all,
he's also looking at how do we actually extend career
pathways. So we've got a lot of indigenous Australians working
(15:21):
in our branches, and what we're looking at is how
do we actually bring them into technology. So he's looking
at career pathways for that as well. So there's a
lot of stuff that we are doing, and that's just a couple
of things that I'm across, so yeah, no.
Mundanara Bayles (15:34):
Yes. Well, there was one really good program that I got
to be part of, and you invited me with a
beautiful Māori sister as well who works in ANZ, and
I'm trying to think of her, Megan.
Kylie Cummings (15:47):
Megan Tapsell.
Mundanara Bayles (15:47):
I remembered your name and I've only met you twice,
but Megan and I were able to co- facilitate our
session to your grads. It was part of their onboarding,
their first week. Was it their second day in the business?
Kylie Cummings (16:03):
I'm not sure.
Mundanara Bayles (16:04):
Or third day?
Kylie Cummings (16:04):
But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because remember I was sick.
Mundanara Bayles (16:07):
You were sick. You got COVID.
Kylie Cummings (16:07):
Yeah, good old COVID. I was so upset. I was so looking forward
to it.
Mundanara Bayles (16:10):
Because you were going to moderate the panel discussion with Megan
and I.
Kylie Cummings (16:14):
I think I may have dodged a bullet there because
I don't think I would've got a word in edgewise.
Mundanara Bayles (16:19):
We done really well. We did do it within the
time. But you know what? For a lot of those
big corporates that are listening to this yarn, having your
100 or whatever grads in the room, starry- eyed, don't
know about reconciliation. So this was an opportunity for me
to talk about ANZ. There was one of your team
(16:40):
members that spoke about your Wrap before us anyway.
Kylie Cummings (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, yep. That would've been Luke.
Mundanara Bayles (16:43):
There was a good segue into Megan and I talking about indigenous
knowledges and storytelling and just weaving in our culture and
how we could influence the way that leaders, how leaders
within the business can be guided by Aboriginal knowledge and
(17:05):
Aboriginal ways of knowing, being, and doing. But this is
your grads.
Kylie Cummings (17:11):
Yeah, and this is the thing though that's important that you teach. It
was kind of like in the Black Card training, it was like I
had a bit of an epiphany moment. There were a
few things that you said within there around how you
introduce yourself. It's about where you're from, your family, that's who you
are, which I loved because I do that. Those people
(17:31):
who know me who will be listening to this know
that I lead with who are you. We have a
conversation first before we get down to business, and you go, " That's how
we do things."
Mundanara Bayles (17:41):
That's it. And so that's being relational.
Kylie Cummings (17:43):
Yes. And sometimes I get pulled up on that going, "
Kylie, you might want to just get down to business," but it's-
Mundanara Bayles (17:48):
Yeah, because they think traditionally that's-
Kylie Cummings (17:52):
You're wasting time.
Mundanara Bayles (17:53):
Yeah, but also your personal stuff and your professional is
two different things. So in the workplace-
Kylie Cummings (18:00):
be all business.
Mundanara Bayles (18:01):
It's all business, and we keep it professional and we
leave the kind of the human part of us and
the biggest part, most important part of us, kind of
out or unless we've really got good relationships then we
are more comfortable, but otherwise, it's strictly your titles and
your job function.
Kylie Cummings (18:19):
Yeah, that's usually the introduction.
Mundanara Bayles (18:19):
And the agenda, and we've only got half an hour.
Kylie Cummings (18:20):
Yeah. And so I loved when you, me, and Megan met, it was, right-
Mundanara Bayles (18:25):
We went straight in to-
Kylie Cummings (18:25):
Yeah, this is how we're going to introduce ourselves.
Mundanara Bayles (18:28):
In Aboriginal terms of reference, and Megan's like, " This is perfect."
Because for Maori people, and I'm not saying I'm an
expert in Maori culture, but very similar, my family, my
iwi, your tribe and your mountain and maybe your river
or the canoe, there was this whole introduction that was
(18:48):
based on where I'm from rather than this is what I do.
So Megan was like, " This is easy and we're just
going to do this," and we gave the grads an activity
for them to get to know-
Kylie Cummings (19:04):
Each other.
Mundanara Bayles (19:04):
... each other.
Kylie Cummings (19:05):
But it cements a relationship, and this is the thing
that I get told I'm good at is creating relationships,
and it's because I do it that way. It's not
actually anything that I do. It's not a deliberate thing. It's just
who I am, and also is-
Mundanara Bayles (19:20):
It's more natural. That's how you operate.
Kylie Cummings (19:22):
That's how I operate. And the other thing you said
to me around Aboriginal culture which I love was that
it's not hierarchical. There is no boss. All of a
sudden I went, " Oh, my life makes sense."
Mundanara Bayles (19:32):
Yes. Yes.
Kylie Cummings (19:33):
I don't think I've ever recognized hierarchy in my life. People are just people.
Mundanara Bayles (19:36):
You don't put yourself above-
Kylie Cummings (19:38):
No.
Mundanara Bayles (19:38):
Don't put yourself above other people.
Kylie Cummings (19:40):
No, never. Never have, never will. It's not how I'm built.
Mundanara Bayles (19:43):
I love this.
Kylie Cummings (19:43):
Everybody's equal.
Mundanara Bayles (19:45):
I love this. And it's interesting in terms of just
working in a ANZ, and quite hierarchical, right?
Kylie Cummings (19:51):
Banks can be yes.
Mundanara Bayles (19:52):
But just Western society, it's highly competitive, highly egotistical, and
it's all about the individual and quite judgmental.
Kylie Cummings (20:02):
Can be, yeah.
Mundanara Bayles (20:02):
So how do we bring these two worlds closer together? And
I think that's the beauty of Black Card training is
that we're teaching, or we're not teaching, we're educating people
about the tens of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge
that comes from this land and how do we utilize
this knowledge to inform how we lead or just in
(20:24):
terms of just how we be better human beings, how
do we be a good human.
Kylie Cummings (20:29):
And it's amazing how it did take everybody on a
roller coaster ride, and it does everybody which I love,
and I did say to you, I don't know how you've structured that, but you've structured it perfectly,
and I know there's method in the madness, I have
no doubts, but it's one of those things where you
take away from it what you... you can't remember everything, but
there was so much I took away from it and
(20:51):
so much of me all of a sudden made sense.
Mundanara Bayles (20:53):
Good, and that's what we love for Aboriginal people to
be able to make sense of who they are and
why they do, their habits, their values.
Kylie Cummings (21:02):
It made me start thinking about what was genetic versus
learnt, things like that. But it was just such an
amazing... So frankly, if you take on those things around
creating relationships, it does make you a great leader. If
you are a person who people can relate to, and I'm
really lucky, I have my boss, Paul White, he's an
(21:24):
amazing leader. He's very personable and he cares, genuinely cares.
And then you've got Gerard Florian, again, similar dynamic, right?
But I think it's one of those things around being
able to engage with your people if they know who
you are and they love the... the key thing that
(21:48):
I always say with culture within my area is if
people come in and they love who they work with and
they love what they do, it's not work and they
perform at their best.
Mundanara Bayles (21:58):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (21:58):
And so that's why, and you're right, banks, actually large
enterprises can be completely hierarchical, but it's about us as
leaders making sure we're more approachable.
Mundanara Bayles (22:08):
I'm going to ask you a question around being a
leader, right? You are quite senior in the business, in
this big hierarchy. Who's been your mentor? Is there anyone
in the business that's kind of supported you to be
able to take on these leadership roles?
Kylie Cummings (22:28):
I've had numerous, and it's kind of about your people,
right? I've got amazing female support within the bank. I
was acting in a CIO role for about five, six
months while Paul was actually coming into the role, and I don't
think I would've put my hand up for that unless
(22:48):
I had quite a few of my female colleagues went, "
You need to put your hand up."
Mundanara Bayles (22:52):
Yeah, you can this.
Kylie Cummings (22:52):
"You'd be great at it. You can do this." I'm like, " No, I can't." They're like, "
No, yes you can." So I did. I still remember
Gerard calling me up and asking me to fill in,
and Gerard's been a great support, Megan, his COO, great support. ANZ's got
some really great leaders who are really supportive. They want
to see you succeed. So I honestly feel very blessed. But
(23:14):
I will also say that I have an amazingly supportive husband-
Mundanara Bayles (23:18):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (23:18):
... who also tells me I can do anything. I
think we've had this conversation before, but my dad used
to be a footy coach, so I always joked that
I wasn't brought up, I was coached up. So my
dad's always like, " The only person stopping you is you."
All these things get bounced around in my head, but
my dad's also an amazing support as well. But I've
(23:41):
been very lucky. I've got a very tight- knit family.
My middle brother's the same. My eldest brother's, even though
he doesn't quite what I do for a living, it's very-
Mundanara Bayles (23:51):
You better know what she does, mate. She's a deadly woman.
Kylie Cummings (23:53):
Works in computers if you ask him.
Mundanara Bayles (23:56):
A bit more than that.
Kylie Cummings (23:57):
Yeah, just slightly. But yeah, no, I must admit I've
got... And my team. I've had probably a stressful year
around my health and my team have been amazing in
supporting me. When I'm not there, they get in, they
lean in. So I've got support everywhere. It's absolutely fantastic. So
I feel very blessed where I am.
Mundanara Bayles (24:16):
And that just leads into my last question, especially for
some of our younger Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women at ANZ. I know
there's a few blackfellas working at ANZ. I want them
to know that there are people like you in the business-
Kylie Cummings (24:29):
Absolutely.
Mundanara Bayles (24:29):
... that can support them or can have a coffee
with them. So reach out.
Kylie Cummings (24:34):
Please do.
Mundanara Bayles (24:36):
You're not alone, and sometimes it does feel quite isolating
and overwhelming when you're trying to navigate these big structures.
Kylie Cummings (24:43):
Of course it does.
Mundanara Bayles (24:43):
Whether it's ANZ or working at Qantas or in the government,
sometimes you do feel like you're alone when you don't
find your people.
Kylie Cummings (24:52):
And sometimes it's all it takes is a conversation. I
was literally having this conversation with someone else yesterday saying
what I learnt, and I wasn't always this way, and
I know people find this hard to believe, but in
my early twenties I was quite shy and now not
so much, but the thing that I figured out is
what's the worst thing that can happen. Ask for a
coffee, ask for advice, seek guidance.
Mundanara Bayles (25:16):
That's what we need. That's what we need, just that reassurance.
Kylie Cummings (25:20):
And some direction-
Mundanara Bayles (25:20):
And direction.
Kylie Cummings (25:20):
... from some people who have navigated it before. I
seek direction all the time. I'm constantly learning, and I'm
really lucky I have people I can ask. Same goes.
Feel free to reach out. I'm more than happy to
support. I've got quite a few people that not necessarily
that I officially mentor, but just reach out and ask
for guidance around their career. Happy to do it because
(25:41):
I've been there, done it, got the T- shirt.
Mundanara Bayles (25:42):
I love this. She's earned her stripes too, and she might
be able to pull a few strings. Maybe just go and have a
coffee and build that relationship. I think that's what a
lot of us just need is just knowing that we've
got some people in our corner that we can trust
and we can lean on when we're finding, even just
(26:02):
times when we're dealing with Sorry Business or there might
be some challenging things that are happening within our work
life, or even if we're studying because some might be
coming in as interns or trainees or grads.
Kylie Cummings (26:14):
It's always a juggle, and I constantly get asked this
because a lot of people know that I have two young kids. They're like, "
how do you do everything?" And I'm like, " Sometimes I
don't do everything well." But it's a juggle, right? It's
not impossible, and the thing that I encourage people to
do is take the leap. What's the worst thing that
can happen? And it's this whole thing of I think
(26:36):
a lot of, especially women and especially when at a
certain age, they feel like they have to choose between
their family and their career, you don't have to choose.
Mundanara Bayles (26:47):
You can do both.
Kylie Cummings (26:48):
You can do both. You just need to draw lines in the sand
which is more lines in... and actually, I got good advice
from Megan one day who said, " Kylie," she said, " I
came back from holidays and people had put in meetings
after five o'clock and I couldn't do them because I
drew a line in the sand." And then I kind
of went, " Well, if Megan can do it, I can do
it." So even I'm learning as we go, but it's
(27:10):
about having those conversations so you can learn from people
who've gone before you.
Mundanara Bayles (27:13):
There you go. And now you've heard it here on this
podcast. Boundaries are really good, having those boundaries.
Kylie Cummings (27:20):
Boundaries.
Mundanara Bayles (27:22):
Yes, but also just not being afraid to speak up
and say, " Actually, I've got this, or I am a
young mum, or I am supporting and looking after my
grandmother," like that relationship-
Kylie Cummings (27:33):
Everybody's human.
Mundanara Bayles (27:33):
But that relationship is so important.
Kylie Cummings (27:35):
It is, because you understand people and you know what
they're going through and you can support them.
Mundanara Bayles (27:38):
That's exactly it.
Kylie Cummings (27:39):
Because it's that whole thing of if people know you've
got their back, they absolutely work harder.
Mundanara Bayles (27:44):
Of course.
Kylie Cummings (27:44):
They're more dedicated, more loyal, you don't get turnover employees.
It's this whole thing of it actually becomes a proper
team. It's an actual team. You support each other.
Mundanara Bayles (28:00):
Yeah, your family, they're your second family.
Kylie Cummings (28:03):
Second family.
Mundanara Bayles (28:03):
Your mob.
Kylie Cummings (28:03):
Well, you spend a lot of time with them.
Mundanara Bayles (28:06):
I'm really pleased that I've been able to connect with
you and that this conversation is actually part of the
Black Magic Woman ANZ Partnership series. So thank you so
much for coming on the podcast and just sharing with
all of us a little bit about who you are,
your journey. I'm sure that there's a lot there for
a lot of people, especially non- Aboriginal people as well,
(28:29):
to also learn about some of the challenges for us
as mob that are still trying to find our way,
but at the same time still very proud to be Black
and to be who we are.
Kylie Cummings (28:40):
And honestly, thank you so much for having me. I
have absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, as with our conversation
last night.
Mundanara Bayles (28:47):
To be continued.
Kylie Cummings (28:49):
And we will continue to have them. But if I
can say to everybody, if you haven't done the Black
Card training, please go do it. It's amazing. I just
encourage you to learn and lean in.
Mundanara Bayles (28:59):
Thank you.
Kylie Cummings (29:00):
No worries.
Mundanara Bayles (29:01):
Well, look, I hope you've enjoyed this deadly yarn. I told you it was going
to be a deadly yarn. Can't wait to bring you
the next episode. So until next time, bye for now.
Intro (29:12):
If you'd like to know more about how ANZ can help
improve your financial well- being or help you start, run,
or grow your business, visit ANZ. com or call 13 13 14.
Mundanara Bayles (29:26):
A big shout out to all you deadly mob and allies
who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your
feedback means the world. You can rate and review the
podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our
socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd
love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman Podcast
is produced by Clint Curtis.
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