Cult Survivor Series #1 with Sarah Edmondson & Nippy Ames

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The moment you realize “this could happen to anyone” is the moment you start getting your power back. We’re kicking off our Cult Survivor Series with two of the most important voices in the cult recovery space: Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames, co-hosts of A Little Bit Culty, to talk about their new book A Little Bit Culty: Navigating Cults, Control, and Coercion.

We get into what makes high control groups work across religions, self-help programs, political movements, and influencer communities, even when they look nothing alike on the surface. Sarah and Nippy break down coercive control in plain language: love bombing that turns conditional, information control, isolation, punishment for questioning, and the “special” jargon that trains you to gaslight yourself. We also talk about why cult recruitment isn’t about intelligence, and how a simple checklist mindset can help you spot red flags early, before you’re deeply invested.

From there we go personal and practical: parenting after a cult, teaching kids how to ask questions without fear, setting boundaries while still building real community, and how online algorithms can target vulnerability and amplify recruitment tactics. We also talk honestly about healing, PTSD, trust, and why recovery doesn’t have a clean endpoint, it comes in waves.

If this conversation helps you, share it with someone who needs better language for what they’re experiencing, and subscribe for more survivor stories. After you listen, leave a comment with the biggest warning sign you’ve seen in a group or relationship.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_05 (00:26):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the channel,
Blown for Good, ScientologyExposed.
I'm Claire, and today we'reintroducing something new on
this channel called the CultSurvivor Series.
For years, Mark and I haveshared our experiences growing
up and working insideScientology.
We've talked about life in thesea organization, the policies,

(00:49):
the control systems, and what ittook for us to eventually leave.
But one thing we've learnedsince speaking out is that the
patterns we experienced are notunique to Scientology.
Again and again, we've heardfrom people who grew up in or
escaped other high controlgroups, different names,
different beliefs, differentleaders, but many of the same

(01:13):
tactics.
Isolation from family, pressureto conform, information control,
punishment for questioning, anda constant message that the
group is the only place you canbe safe, loved, or saved.
That's what this series isabout.
In the Cult Survivor series,we'll be talking with people who

(01:35):
have left a wide range of highcontrol groups.
What these groups share incommon is the way they pull
people in, how they maintaincontrol, and how difficult it
can be to leave.
Our goal with theseconversations is not just to
tell stories, though those areimportant too.
It's also to explore thepatterns, how people are

(01:57):
recruited, what keeps membersinside, what happens
psychologically and emotionallywhen someone begins to question,
and what it actually takes tobreak away and rebuild a new
life.
We also want to show somethingelse that often gets lost in
discussion about cults.
The people who join these groupsare not weak, gullible, many are

(02:20):
thoughtful, compassionate,idealistic people looking for
meaning, purpose, a community,or just a way to help others.
Those are human needs that allof us share.
High control groups simplyexploit them.
By hearing directly fromsurvivors of different groups,
we hope viewers will recognizethe common warning signs and

(02:44):
gain insight into the commonthemes of coercion, control, and
manipulation.
And just as importantly, we wantsurvivors watching this to know
you are not alone.
People from many differentbackgrounds have gone through
similar experiences and havefound ways to rebuild their
lives.
So that's the purpose of theCult Survivor series to learn,

(03:08):
to compare, to understand, andgive a voice to people who lived
through these systems and foundtheir way out.
We're so grateful to the guestswho are willing to share their
stories with us.
And we hope these conversationswill help bring more awareness
to the realities of high controlgroups.
So with that, we will dive intotoday's conversation.

(03:30):
Thank you for watching.
All right, welcome, SarahEdmondson and Nippy Ames, my
amazing friends.
I love you guys so, so much.
And today we're talking aboutyour new book, which I have
right here, a little bit culty,navigating cults, control, and
coercion.

(03:50):
So, first of all, welcome to theshow.
Welcome back, Sarah.
Thank you.
Great to have you, Nippy.
I don't think you were with uslast time, right?

SPEAKER_02 (03:58):
No, no, I'm second fiddle on all this stuff, which
is fine.
But we just want to say feelingsmutual, Claire.

SPEAKER_05 (04:06):
Yeah, we love you so much.

SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
We were very excited to come on and chat.

SPEAKER_05 (04:10):
Yeah, I've met a lot of amazing people in the cult
recovery space, but you guys arein my top 10 hands.

SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
Likewise, likewise, feelings mutual.

SPEAKER_05 (04:20):
Feeling is absolutely so you're in top
five, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
Oh Mark.

SPEAKER_05 (04:24):
Oh, okay, top three.

SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
Top three.

SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
All right, five.
I kind of I kind of lobbied forthat one there.

SPEAKER_05 (04:31):
It's all good.
Anyway, yes, and absolutelycongratulations on your new
book.
This is Sarah, your second book.
Um, and of course, I will linkin the video description to your
first book, SCARD, and theinterviews we've done
previously, both on your channeland our channel, um, so people
can get up to speed on yourstory because today our

(04:53):
conversation will focus on yourbook.
Uh so how do you feel?
Congratulations, it's out now.

SPEAKER_04 (05:00):
It's been such a labor of love, Claire.
Like we started, we startedthinking about this, I think,
around just before I did TEDTalk, which was in like 2023, I
believe, right?
I think.
Yeah.
And so that's when I had that.
We had, you know, we worked umon the outline, and then we I
think we started activelywriting over two years ago.
This time last year, we thoughtthat we were done.

(05:22):
Just before the summer, we werelike, it's done.
We had the draft, we we got somefeedback that maybe needed some
structural things.
And then we ended up bringing inuh Melody, who I introduced you
to, um, who basically did anoverhaul, and then so we
realized there were some gaps.

SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
It's just like Well, it wasn't good.

SPEAKER_04 (05:38):
It wasn't good, it really wasn't.
Um, and it there it's just sohard to explain something that's
not linear in a linear fashion,and in a way that somebody could
read it who doesn't know aboutany of the things.
We won't assume that somebodydoesn't know any of the things,
most of which I know you knowgaslighting, coercion, um, you

(05:59):
know, all the different tacticsthat cults and culty groups,
people, organizations use in away that somebody could read it
and really get it and get allthe concepts in a really
palatable way.
So Melody was great because shedidn't know any of that.
So she was asking really basicquestions that we took for
granted, like, you know, whywould somebody want to start a

(06:21):
cult?
Who are these people?
And then, like, set, you know,setting it up in that way.
So, yeah, and answered yourquestion, it feels really good
to finally have it done.
It's a total labor of love.
Um, I'm a perfectionist, so uhit was very difficult to finish
it.
There was every time I thoughtit was finished, I'd interview
another guest and be like, but Ineed to put their story in.

(06:43):
I need to include that.

SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
That was fun.

SPEAKER_05 (06:45):
And then so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
So I didn't think leaving a cult tested our
marriage enough, so we decidedto write a book.

SPEAKER_05 (06:54):
Oh my gosh.
Well, hey, at least you didn'tbuild a house.
I've heard that that's uh evenworse.

SPEAKER_06 (07:00):
We'll never do that.

SPEAKER_05 (07:00):
Not that I've done that, not that I planned that,
but uh, you know, I've I'veheard from a few people.

SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
I mean, leaving a cult, doing an international
move, and writing a booktogether.

SPEAKER_05 (07:10):
Like it's just and having kids, don't forget that
part.
Raising raising children.
Um, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
Who are also in sports.

SPEAKER_05 (07:17):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
I know that's what kids uhobviously we have three boys.
That is the reason I have heldoff on doing my book up until
this point, because you know, Ithere were when they were
younger, I'm sure you guys canrelate, but there's times you
can't even finish aconversation, let alone write a

(07:38):
book.

SPEAKER_02 (07:39):
Also, you have to your your time, there's certain
hours of the day where that yourtime is just spoken for.
And so you have to learn to workwithin a framework of hours.
And normally my life was like,oh, I can do two hours here, two
hours here, two hours there, andlike, no, your three hours are
right here, and you have tolearn how to maximize them and
your mood doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 (07:58):
Yeah, we we really try to get all our work done
during school hours so that whenwe pick up the kids from school,
you know, from three tillbedtime, is there that we're
with them.
And you know, sometimes one ofus will switch off so the other
person can, you know, do somework.
Um, we don't always have to bothbe there all the time, but we
want our kids to feel our youknow our presence.

(08:19):
And our one of our things withprioritizing and getting this
book done is that the bookalways came second to our kids.
So it's taken a while.
It's taken a while.
Um, if we hadn't had all that,we probably would have been
finished a while ago, but it'sit is what it is, and we're very
happy that it's out and it'slike having it felt it just felt

(08:41):
like we were pregnant with well,you don't know what this feels
like, but you know, Claire, itfeels like you're pregnant, like
nine months pregnant for a longtime.
Where it's like I have to givebirth, I have to give birth.
Now it's birthed.

SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
And hopefully this is the fun part.

SPEAKER_04 (08:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Now we like want to introduceeveryone to the baby.
Yes.
So we're making the rounds.

SPEAKER_05 (08:57):
This is the this is the the rounds.
And and I will tell you, so I'mmore than halfway through, and I
am loving the really thebreakdown and the vulnerability
and the way that you'vestructured kind of weaving in
your own individual stories to,you know, explain and help

(09:18):
people understand that cultureare truly in all walks of life
in this day and age.
And I love your emphasis in thebeginning that this can happen
to anybody.

unknown (09:33):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (09:34):
That's definitely one of our goals is for people
to we're punching that point.
Yeah.
I think if people don't get thatby the end, then we didn't do
our job.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Another thing, another thing too, it's kind of
uh somewhat the same statementor the same statement adjacent
is every belief system has anextreme version of itself.
Yeah, you just might not be theextreme part, you might be a
little bit extreme, or you mightor the benign part.
You might be the person whoshows up and takes a yoga class
and doesn't even know about it.

SPEAKER_04 (10:02):
So yeah, our our goal is really for people to to
see those tactics as maybe noteven a cult, but like just
problematic.
They might be in a group that'syou know not a cult, but they
subtly shame people for beinglate, you know, or something
like that.

SPEAKER_05 (10:20):
Right.
That's no, absolutely I don'twant to be a part of that group.
No, exactly.
And and I will say I'm I'm ato-do list checklist kind of a
person.
So I I'm thoroughly enjoying youhave at the end of each chapter
a culty checklist for variousdifferent, you know, elements of
coercion and control, and thisis what to look for.

(10:42):
And hey, if you're looking for,are you looking for this, this,
this, and you and you're like,check, check, check, yep.
Oh, that that mat mark uhmatches my experience 100%.
I love those.
It's uh really eye-opening andand it gives it the feel of more
of a like walking alongside youboth in the journey of what

(11:06):
you've learned.
And obviously, it's very clearto me how much care you have for
your podcast and the the guestsyou've interviewed, and how
those interviews, I would say atleast this is the impression I
got, have kind of expanded yourview of what what a cult is,
what the control tactics looklike, what the coercion looks

(11:29):
like, um, to where the the yourbook feels like not a a lecture
per se, but like, hey, this wasour experience and this is what
it looked like for us.
So hopefully this helps youunderstand it better.

SPEAKER_04 (11:43):
That's so great to hear.
And and I am also a checklistperson.
I always have my to-do listbeside my computer
electronically on my computer,and then also on my phone.
Then I got to have multiplelists, just to always make sure
I get everything done.
But um, the checklist was also,I think it was actually Melody's
idea.
We we had at least to call itthe culty checklist.

(12:04):
But one of the reasons why wethought it would be good to have
that at the end is that foranyone who's getting out of a
cult like us who have PTSD,sometimes reading a whole thing
is hard.
Uh, also why it will be onAudible uh eventually in a
couple months.
We're still still narrating, um,multitasking.
But also that is just if theydon't have, if they can't sit

(12:25):
down for long enough to actuallyread, they can sort of skim to
the end of each chapter and andlook at it and go, okay, um, you
know, love bombing.
Has anyone ever given youexcessive flattery or excessive
gifts and then just go throughthe list and and and just learn
it that way?
So we're we know that people,not everyone's gonna read this
book the same way, you know, ifyou're a cult survivor versus

(12:45):
you're cult curious or you wantto give it to someone who you
care about, who you think mightbe in a cult.
Um, it's all there.
And I know since you're sinceyou're halfway, you might not
have seen this yet unless you uhjumped ahead.
But uh we say at the beginning,use this book as it pertains to
you, you know, like if if you'rea cult survivor, you'll get this

(13:06):
whole book is for you.
You know, everything in thisbook is for you, and including
these two appendixes, which somepeople suggested we cut out
because they were very niche umspecifically on how to write a
cult memoir.
So that might be interestinterest to you because I know
you're writing your book.
Yes.
And then also how to navigatethe media.

(13:28):
We have a section onwhistleblowing and all the
different ways people havewhistleblowed and our guests who
did that.
But then we thought so manypeople come to us for advice
about, you know, they just gotout, what should they do?
Should they go to the press likewe did?
If they did, what kind of pressshould they do?
So we have a whole appendix juston like how to navigate the
difference between podcasts,which we recommend because you

(13:49):
can be yourself and there's no,you know, no editing.
Well, some editing, but it'sfree flow, yes, versus like not
doing live shows like Dr.
Oz or live news until you'remore healed because it can be
super triggering and um intenseand like and sound bites.
Sound bites.
Like you have to be really goodat like boom, boom, boom.

(14:10):
You can't be like, Well, Ijoined when I was five, and then
I like you can't think about it.
You have to be like, cults arebad.
This is why, this is what itlooks like.

SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
Yeah, you have you have to speak in checklists,
yes.
So in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_04 (14:25):
One of the reasons why we're we were super excited
about that is that, and also whywe self-published this one is
that we know that you know, somepeople were looking at it going,
I think you should cut that.
And I said, I know you think Ishould cut that.
I understand why you think Ishould cut it, but I don't care
because we wanted to be able togive this to somebody like you
who gets out of a cult and itall be in there, you know, it

(14:47):
all be in one place versus like,oh, watch this podcast and
listen to this doc or watch thisdocumentary and and read these
12 books.
Like it's too much.

SPEAKER_02 (14:57):
Yeah, I kind of feel like if you've if you're reading
ours, it hasn't gotten darknecessarily in the ways that it
has.
If you're reading StephenHassen's and Yanya Lalich's, the
more academic ones, you've hitsomething um and you need the
deep dive and the deep languagefor it.
I think ours is kind of astopgap, if you will, and the

(15:18):
checklist, I think too.
The checklist kind of is a goodantidote to you know, a lot of
young people are forming theirideologies based on TikTok and
not through kind of a deep,deeper understanding and coming
out confidently stupid in theirperspectives.
And um, I think in a world wherethere's just a volume of

(15:41):
information, um, and everyonehas an area of vulnerability or
susceptibility, the algorithm isgoing to find you.
It's going to find your areawhere you're susceptible to
maybe resentment and it's goingto tap into those things.
And if you can kind of get achecklist that goes, algorithms
do this, and you go, and you canhave a kind of self-awareness

(16:03):
through a checklist of going, ohmy god, I fell for that because
this TikTok thing made me dowhatever.
I think it's a good thing tocombat it.
And Sarah and I always say, I'mnot a very good self-promoter.
Um I'm just not comfortable withit.
You know, I don't, but I'm ahundred percent comfortable
going up to a college parent ora high school parent saying,

(16:26):
make sure your child reads this.

SPEAKER_05 (16:28):
Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
You you know I have no problem with that.

SPEAKER_05 (16:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Another another thought thatreally struck me that as you
say, it this serves as a stopgap here.
Let me hold it up so everyonecan see.
There's your beautiful book.
Um so you know, there there areobviously are many different
books on specific cults, but forsomebody in a cult, like for me,

(16:53):
I was born into Scientology.
So while I was in, or even justafter I escaped and was getting
out, like the thought of readinga book about Scientology being a
cult felt really scary.
So having this kind of mix ofall these different stories, it
does serve that stopgap ofgoing, well, you know, because I

(17:16):
I don't know about you, and I'dlove to hear your thoughts on
this, but for me, a huge pieceof what opened my eyes was
hearing other cult experiencesand then drawing parallels and
going, well, wait a minute, thishappened, this happened.
Oh, I had that experience too,and it really did wake me up in
so many ways.

SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
It humanizes it.

SPEAKER_04 (17:38):
Yeah, no, multiple times, and specifically going
clear, holy hell, um,documentaries, uh, what other
documentaries?
Wild Wild Country, which we havesome problems with, but that's a
separate story.
Um, but yeah, no, a hundredpercent it was we were we were
really able to to make thatjump.
And a lot of people have saidthat also about the vow that

(17:59):
they were yeah, the vow's beenyeah, like in the Mormon church
or um what else?
Um FLDS, uh well, I said that,um, Jehovah's Witnesses, all
sorts of different groups thatwere like, oh, I saw the vow
just out of curiosity, or I justwatched the Tiger King and it
was COVID, and then we watchedthe vow, and I didn't realize
that I was in a cult until Icould make those parallels.

SPEAKER_05 (18:21):
Yes.
So that's what what I love aboutyour podcast title, a little bit
culty, like, okay, you know, itdoesn't have to be all in
necessarily, let's just slowlystart opening our eyes and
learning about our experience ina different perspective, you
know, and taking take take backcontrol, uh, you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Yeah, well, the what to your point, the control
tactics and the coercive tacticsum that go on in cults aren't
proprietary to cults, they go oneverywhere.
So you don't have to be in acult to experience the
coerciveness and the controlstrategies that go on in cults.
They can be a little bit culty.

SPEAKER_05 (18:59):
Yes, exactly.
I love it.
Yes.
Okay, so um anyway, uh again, II thought I've thoroughly
enjoyed um how far I've gotten,and I will absolutely be
finishing it very shortly.

SPEAKER_04 (19:15):
Amazing.
I just realized if you're justpast halfway, you might not have
gotten to the section about yourstory.

SPEAKER_05 (19:21):
I jumped ahead and read that section.
Did we did we do it justice?
Did we do it right?
You did, yes.
And without giving anythingaway, I I really laughed about
um the part where you were said,Oh, I hope someone makes this a
movie.
Just don't cast Tom Cruise.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
Or cast them and hand them this book.

SPEAKER_05 (19:43):
Yes, exactly, for sure.
I also have thoroughly enjoyedseeing um, in by my opinion, uh
Nippy, you were very similar toMark, like the the rebel, the
not really all in, and Sarah,you were more like me.

SPEAKER_04 (20:01):
Well, yeah, like the goody two shoes and all the roll
caller.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
I'll say that's that's not necessarily true in
the sense of not being all in.
I was all in in a different way.

SPEAKER_04 (20:15):
Yes.
Yes, you just weren't as youweren't obedient, Mark wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 (20:19):
My my wiring, my central nervous system is
different to the point wherelike if you're you're not gonna
get me to do something I don'treally want to do.

SPEAKER_06 (20:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
And that doesn't mean, but it doesn't mean I'm
not susceptible, right?
For sure.
So for sure.
I think my I think my story ispowerful because I'm that guy.
And that guy is out there, thearchetype that is me is out
there thinking that would neverhappen to me with the folded
arms.
Well, hey, I was you, right?

(20:49):
And I if you read my story, myhooks are are particular to me.
Yes, 100%.
Yeah, it it could just hit youin that moment.
It's literally like lightning ina bottle, kind of because it
just hit me at the rightvulnerable moment.
But generally speaking, I am theguy who's not a joiner, I am a
little bit of an introvert andloner, and you can still have

(21:12):
those perfect conditions happento you where you're behind
something you think is good.
And it's oh yes, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (21:20):
And when I say rebel, I of course, you know,
Mark was in as deep as I was, hehad to escape too.
But it was just it's justinteresting that there are
different uh markers, you know,and yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
You know, it's just I I I the reason I say that is I
don't I don't I think some ofthe time I come across as, you
know, um uh it still uh didn'treally happen to me.
It happened to me.
It happened to me in a differentway.
And I and I'm I'm I'm it'simportant for me to lean into
how it happened to me so mystory's that much more um

(21:58):
powerful for other people.

SPEAKER_05 (22:00):
100%.
So switching gears too, anotherthing that w that I was struck
by, and I'd love to hear yourthoughts on this because I could
really relate is an and a a asimilarity we have, of course,
is raising our childrenpost-cult experience now.
I'd love to hear your thoughtsabout that.
I could obviously I've seenpieces of it in the book where

(22:23):
you reference that.
Like, of course, wanting to makesure your kids don't have any
experience similar to yours.
What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 (22:34):
Yeah, I mean, we we try to talk about some of the
tactics in a way that like mightbe more relatable to them.
I mean, I uh who knows whattheir future has in store, but
you know, they're both insports.
So, for example, I think a lotof the things that can happen
with um predators with grooming,you know, that's a that's a
space that we have to be reallycareful of and teaching them

(22:55):
things like, you know, ifsomebody makes you feel special
and sort of singles you out andwants to do private time with
you and away from us, likeobviously when we drop our kids
off for practices, we're notwatching the whole time, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Sometimes sometimes I am.

SPEAKER_04 (23:08):
Yeah, sometimes nobody's watching from the
fence, making sure they'regetting trained properly, but
psycho parent.
But um, other times, like, youknow, they're they're in other
people's hands and or you know,a sleepover or whatever.
And we want our kids to feellike they are never trapped, you
know, and that they can reachout to us and ask for help if um
they feel uncomfortable.
So obviously that's not a cult,but it's the same tactics that

(23:30):
you know groomers use or abusersuse of isolation and grooming
and making feel special and lovebombing and all those things.
We want to make sure theyunderstand that and have a way
out.
So we have like special codesfor letting us know if they're
uncomfortable without puttingthemselves on the spot, which
will also change as they getolder and start going to um you
know parties and things likethat.
But in terms of groups, um, youknow, we're just very um honest

(23:54):
about our experience.
And I hope that you know thatour kids read the books.
Um Troy's read part of this andwas like really impressed and
thought it was really cool.
Watch this write it, watch us uhcreate it.

SPEAKER_02 (24:05):
Um he's he'd he's reasonable.
We I he I can talk with him andand I I can I can give you an
example of of just like in thecar rides I have with him, I'll
go, well, what do you think isgoing on with the person there?
And he'll answer it and he'll beright.
Like he'll be like, Well, theythey want you to think the way
you want to think.
I go, why do you think that'sthey're doing that?
And he can answer them in a waythat I'm like way smarter than

(24:29):
me.
Um so um I'm I'm confident he'sgonna have the wherewithal to
ask the right questions.
I've seen how he can handlehimself.
Um so I'm not concerned in termsof in our communication with him
is is really good, at leastuntil you know maybe he gets a

(24:49):
little bit internal at pubertyand like no, but we encourage
him to to you know to bevulnerable and all that stuff.
Um we, you know, there's somethe thing that I'm very
concerned about is a lot of thepolitical crossfire that our
kids are in right now.
Um sometimes it's at schools.
We um we had a little bit of itat last school.

(25:11):
Um and I went and kicked thetires and what was going on
there.
It wasn't that bad, but it wasenough for me to go, you know.
I don't think our kids are gonnacontinue to go to school here.
A lot of it was more becausethey didn't have much of a
sports program there.
But there was other ideologicalthings that were going on at the
school that I just am 100%opposed to because it was
telling kids what to think andwhat to feel and not teaching

(25:34):
them how to think.
Right.
And a lot of the stuff that itwas advocating for, I don't have
a problem with per se, if my kidcomes to those conclusions on
his own and can articulatethrough.
But if it if he's being told todo something and you can't go
question those things, to me,those are the biggest red flags.
And I've told my kids if youcan't question something and you
get pushback for asking aquestion, you need to pay

(25:56):
attention to that.
Our other kid's seven, we don'treally get into that now, and
he's got his head in puzzles andstuff like that.
Maybe it'll it'll come down theroad.
But no, generally speaking, youknow, I think the biggest
concern as parents generally aresugar and iPads.
And I think the algorithm onlineis very real.
I think we have a generation,um, enough forensics of a

(26:17):
generation to um cite theproblems of the TikTok
generation of kids, particularlykids on college campuses, um,
confidently stupid about foreignpolicy and then going into
quads, and it's resulted in someanti-Semitism that I wouldn't
send my kids near those schools.
And yeah, I'm confident when Isay if your child goes to

(26:38):
college and comes back a socialactivist, there's a problem.

SPEAKER_04 (26:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
And it doesn't matter.
You can speak to whatevercontent point is, and uh they're
being recruited into something,yeah.
Yeah, and these and these movethese movements, um these
movements, and I'll I can callthem out by name, I think um are
recruiting kids.

SPEAKER_04 (26:59):
Um that's why the college stuff is so important,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:03):
And for sure, they're they're recruiting kids
and they're leveraging thegrievances of fringe movements
to justify their existence.
And you have to understand whatthey're doing and how they're
doing it.
And oftentimes they're using thegroup and spitting out the group
when they have power.
Um and that's the most dangerousthing for our kids right now.

(27:24):
And what's at stake is um themeritocracy that a lot of people
have run into gunfire topreserve.
Uh, I'll put it diplomatically,because I don't particularly
want to use any of my platformsto tell people which way to lean
politically, because I thinkpolitical the polars, polarities
of both political parties arepoison, and they both want you

(27:46):
to agree to go leverage, theywant to leverage your goodness
and your morality to go reallyaccelerate their agenda for
power.
And it doesn't really matter whoyou're aligned with.
Um, and that's a sad commentarytoo.
And I think our kids, we need ageneration to come up and
understand that's what's goingon so they can not participate

(28:07):
in it, and spot it and say,Yeah, I see I see what you're
doing, I see what you're tryingto do with my goodness and
trying to leverage it.

SPEAKER_04 (28:14):
And just to add to something what Nippy was just
saying about being able toquestion and you know, not just
be obedient soldiers, that'salso hard as parents because we
also want them to listen to us.
Oh, for sure, right?
So that's so that this is likeuh I find this is like a real
delicate balance.
We're like, we're quite likequestion authority and don't
just be obedient, but brush yourteeth, you know.

(28:35):
Like we're winning.

SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
We're still winning.

SPEAKER_04 (28:37):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
It's a hard balance.
Like, I don't want them to beobedient like I was.
I want them to understand whythey're doing everything they're
doing, but I also want them tolike respect us and do what I
ask them to do when I ask themto do it.
So it's right.

SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
That's why that's why I think sports is such a
great training ground for kids.
Um, and if you can't do sports,I think stuff like jujitsu,
martial arts are are a good areabecause they're constantly
dealing with reality and they'reconstantly dealing with
measurement, and they'reconstantly dealing, like you
can't really subvert thosethings.

unknown (29:07):
True.

SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
And if you do try to subvert those things, it's it's
blatant.

SPEAKER_04 (29:11):
But martial arts is also so ripe for abuse.
What do you mean, like there'slike I love martial arts, I love
what my kids have learned injujitsu and taekwondo and judo
and whatnot, but the systems arealso set up for people to be
abused because it's it well,it's like anything where you're
good you're joining and you'reasking.

SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
I mean, some of them are pretty standardized, some of
them are great.

SPEAKER_05 (29:31):
I'm just saying yeah, no, I've I've seen
examples of that too.
I I I I agree.
I mean, it's it's like anything,you know, and and you cover this
in the book too.
Like the the way that they canpresent is oh, this is your
family and the love bombing andthe this and the this and the
this.
And so, yes, there's uh it'sjust you know, those red flags

(29:53):
you got to watch out for andlisten to your gut, like you
talk about and follow yourintuition and don't shut down
that that voice in the back ofyour head, make it stronger by
listening to it.

SPEAKER_04 (30:05):
Yeah, yeah, and and asking for opinions outside of
whatever it is, if you're notsure.
Yes, a lot of times people gointo the group and like, oh
maybe I'm feeling a bit like Idon't know if I want to do this,
and the and then the leader orthe person you're given the
authority to, which you have toif you're gonna learn a new
skill.

unknown (30:21):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (30:22):
If you're entering, if you're entering a dojo,
you're saying, I know less thanyou, master, teach me.

unknown (30:27):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (30:28):
Oh, I yeah, for sure.
And I also love that youcovered, oh, research, um,
research the group, not only thefirst top results that are the
paid results, but also look uplawsuits, speak to former
members, you know, all of that.
I was like, brilliant.
Yes, absolutely.
Those are really, really solidum pointers.

SPEAKER_04 (30:51):
Thank you, Claire.
We wrote this book also like forour the ghosts of ourselves.
Like if we had had this bookbefore we joined Exium,
obviously we wouldn't havejoined because we would have
seen the red flags.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
If we had the book if I knew I was gonna meet you,
I'd still join.

SPEAKER_05 (31:05):
Oh, Dippy.
Oh, that's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (31:10):
Yeah, wait a minute, hold on a second.
I'll assass and get back to you.
No, um, and then also if wewrote it for ourselves in the in
the when we were in to go togive us options for leaving um
and to maybe leave in adifferent way, although I think
we'd left in the best way wecould.
My only regret, and I don'tthink this is in the book, is

(31:31):
that, and not like I can turnback time, but I was so angry
that obviously we rallied thepeople that believed the anger
and and weren't asindoctrinated, but but the
people that were moreindoctrinated than me were able
to look at my anger and justdeny what I was saying because I
was so angry.

SPEAKER_02 (31:48):
Which is one of the reasons we stayed in originally,
because some of the people thatsounded the alarm, I think in
2009, were so unhinged when theyleft and told their unhinged
before we went.
So we filtering for theirunhingedness, and when they were
unhinged, subsequently what theysaid we didn't buy it, we
thought was informed by theirunhinged behavior, and and it

(32:11):
was, but we used that ratherthan validate their perspective
to dismiss it.

SPEAKER_05 (32:15):
So that's no we we had completely had that similar
scenario, and to me that really,really speaks to the the the way
that cults use labels to controland manipulate you because you
just slap a label on it in yourmind and go, well, that's uh and

(32:36):
then really you you tune out anyother input because it's coming
through that label, it'sfascinating the parallels to me.

SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
What the cults are really are really effective at
is curating your indoctrinationand then curating the potential
objections and then curating howyou respond to them, and like
it's a very well oiled machinein terms of like the lot of
barriers to get in, like ritesof indoctrination, and the
barriers to get out are set upfor you as well.

(33:06):
Um, so it takes a lot ofunderstanding of what they're
doing, um, which is highlyintelligent, which a lot of
people don't really understand.
These are highly intelligent andhighly manipulative people.

SPEAKER_06 (33:18):
Completely.

SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
And you have to under you can't underestimate
it.
Um, you can't underestimatetheir malevolence.
And one of the things that Ialways emphasize in any of these
interviews is that a lot ofthose people understand what
they're doing and what it's liketo manipulate another human
being who's a good person, andyou don't have the understanding
of their malevolence because youdon't have it in you, so you

(33:39):
can't project it into theirpsychology.
And that is their that is theirbiggest advantage when they're
setting these things up andthey're going about their
business.
So if you can at least justconsider a malevolent mind is at
play here, and then go intosituations just with that caveat
and to understand it, you'rejust more informed.

(34:00):
You can protect yourself better,you have a little bit more armor
on.
And you may, you may make somemistakes with that armor, but
better to err on the side ofcaution than spend 10 years in a
cult.

SPEAKER_05 (34:10):
Yes, completely for sure.
Were you gonna say something,Sarah?

SPEAKER_04 (34:15):
She always is gonna say yes, but it was like from a
few points ago, just what youwere saying, the the
similarities were shocking.
And I would just, you know, Ithink both Scientology and
Nexium really did a number onour emotional um bandwidth slash
connection to our emotions.
And I I think that, you know,from what I've heard is that if

(34:35):
you're reactive, you're youknow, coming from your I don't
know all the terms inScientology, but you're not like
steady and calm and thatinvalidates, yeah, basically
invalidates like see there's noroom for saying for being upset
about something.
No, there's no room for outrage,right?
There's no room for like yeah,next thing they say, well, you
have a vested interest, whichmeans it's based on a fear, it's
not based on reality.

(34:56):
So it's not like there's nothere's nothing to to explore
there, right?
So um yeah, it just is it is sofascinating.

SPEAKER_05 (35:05):
Yeah, no, it's so fascinating.
Again, that's another thing thatstruck me, which we we talked
about when you and I did aninterview about your book,
Sarah.
The parallels in the thelanguage piece specifically is
it's so um insidious how thelanguage makes you start doing

(35:28):
their work for them in yourmind.
Um and and there are so manyparallels, similar language,
specifically between Nexium andScientology, of course.
It just it's mind-boggling tome.

SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
Well, even what you just said too, you know, as
you're saying it, it's like it'ssuch a well-oiled machine that
they actually have verbiage andlanguage that you're going to
use to facilitate your staying,leaving, and to keep you in.
So it's it it really is, to yourpoint, really insidious because

(36:03):
they develop a language thateveryone can agree upon, and
their language is designed tosnare you.

SPEAKER_05 (36:11):
Completely.
You have a critical thought andyou go, oh, I'm you dismiss it.
That's uh black PR, blackpropaganda, and I'm uh, you
know, I'm just critical.
That means I have overts andwithholds, and I, you know, and
it even prevents you eventuallyfrom even voicing it in your

(36:32):
mind, let alone saying the wordsout of your mouth, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (36:36):
Yeah, that's intelligence, if you ask me.
That's highly intelligent andhighly manipulative.
You can't dismiss that as like,oh, it's a fucking excuse my
language, it's a cult and theywould never fall for it.

SPEAKER_06 (36:46):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
You know, and if you and and that's it at its
extreme.
So think about what it lookslike on its most subtle level
when it wants you to buysomething or it wants you to,
you know, to believe this causeor get you to do this.
You know, by the time you're in,it's extreme, but it starts
softly.
There's a soft indoctrination,and you've got to understand
what that looks like and soundslike.

SPEAKER_06 (37:06):
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
Still, even if you've gone through it, like I
catch myself going like, youknow, so it's it's a it's a
muscle, you know, you have tolike go, okay, or at least
consider it.

SPEAKER_05 (37:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Right.
So yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 (37:20):
I'm I'm curious to know the answer to this because
I know my answer.
So when you got out and startedto wake up and realize, like,
did you go through a period ofjust kind of uh like how did you
process trust and um awarenessof other similarities and other

(37:41):
organizations?

SPEAKER_04 (37:43):
I mean, I think our first little while was we just
weren't even interested in anysort of gathering, like any sort
of get together, even like Imean, parties, people that we
know is one thing, but I Ijoined this like women's
networking thing, and we all sataround in a circle and shared
like who we were and like whatour goals were and stuff.
And I was like, ugh, like I knewI knew it was fine.
I knew in my mind I knew it wasfine, but my body was really

(38:06):
uncomfortable, for example.
Um, and I I you know, we'reeight years out now.
Um, and I think it's betterevery now and then at I mean, I
think I think we're both prettygeneral, like I still am a
trusting person.
Um, and we've also been bitten,you know, what's the word?
Um not bitten in the butt, butlike I we've we've missed some

(38:30):
red flags again.
We we that was what I was tryingto say, we've nipped it in the
bud sooner.
Yeah, like we haven't been fullytaken advantage of it.

SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
We have a process, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (38:38):
But I think there was a couple times where we like
started working with some peoplethat we just missed the red
flags because I meanessentially, yeah.
They were it's hard like lovebombing is tricky because when
you meet somebody that youreally connect with, it feels
the same.
So we felt like we found peoplethat we really connected with,

(39:00):
and then things went sideways,and I was like, Oh, I miss, and
I went when I looked back, it'slike I missed these.
I saw that I I I I was able topinpoint the things that I
missed because I was caught upin the excitement of it all and
feeling good that I felt asynergy with people.
Um, so you know, we're stillgonna make mistakes in life
though.
So I don't know if it's I feellike we nipped it before it was

(39:21):
really bad, but we yeah, wemissed some flags because for
sure.

SPEAKER_05 (39:27):
No, my my version of that is, and you know, I've read
many books and continue to readbooks, obviously, but also
through therapy.
And um, I remember distinctlythis conversation with my
therapist after I went through aspecifically very difficult time
period post-Scientology.
And uh she was like, Why, whydid you let this person so close

(39:50):
to you?
And and I was like, Well, theyhave similar trauma and
experiences, so I assumed theirintentions were the same as
mine, and I didn't even lookbeyond that.
It was kind of a a blind spot ofjust, you know, and and of
course, you know, every person'scult recovery path is different.
And I'm certainly not going tojudge that.

(40:12):
I've made mistakes and, youknow, still learning to process,
especially having been born intoScientology, it's quite the
unravel that has to occur.
But um, that that questionreally hit me like, yeah, okay,
uh, I need to change things.

SPEAKER_02 (40:28):
Yeah, you bring up a good point.
I mean, optically, when you meetsomeone, generally speaking, you
accept the persona that theypresent.

SPEAKER_06 (40:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Right.
And even if I get like thisperson's inauthentic, they're
not really, I'll go, okay, I getit.
You're being social, it's howyou navigate your world.
I'm not condemning them forbeing maybe inauthentic or
whatever, but I'll accept ituntil you have reason not to.

SPEAKER_06 (40:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
And that's mostly how people go about their day or
their world, and then you lookat their wake and they may have
done this, and this may be apattern in their life.
You don't project malevolencenecessarily.
Like, I don't, I don't, I don'tthink most people are
malevolent.
I think it's a small portion.
So it's it's just something youhave to consider though.

SPEAKER_04 (41:13):
Yeah, knowing it's out there is important.

SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
And and to your point about the trusting, like,
you know, it's someone asked methis, and and I I've kind of
found like over a course oftime, I've learned to trust more
or more the same, just with alittle bit more wisdom.
Yes, and a little bit morevetting.
And so my trustworthiness hasalways been, I think, aired to
the side of I trust too much.

(41:36):
Now I kind of do it uh the same,just with a little bit more
wisdom, because I'm basicallyoptimistic about people.
I understand that there's asmall demographic of malevolent
people, and those are the peoplethat are kind of starting cults
and getting good people to dotheir bidding.

SPEAKER_05 (41:51):
Yeah, or or the serial killers.

SPEAKER_02 (41:53):
Yes, and then and then that's a smaller
demographic.
So, you know, it's uh, but theycan do a lot of damage.
Um, as for you know, joining andand those sorts of things, I've
kind of reverted back to how Iwas before all this.
I didn't join anything at themost stuff is bullshit, you
know, and I didn't have thetime.
So um I've never been much of ajoiner.
I didn't I didn't join afraternity in college, and

(42:14):
everyone's like, You weren't ina fraternity.
I was like, I could.
I just couldn't.
I needed I need my own time,space.
It makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 (42:22):
I also did a pendulum swing of so many years
of Scientology, Scientologicaljudging of people, like through
that language, through thatlens, that when I got out, I was
like, I'm that's I'm I'm donewith all of that, which you
know, but to your point, like,well, don't throw the baby out

(42:43):
with the bathwater.
You have your intuition, youhave your gut.
There are things that, you know,okay, you don't have to condemn
somebody, but do you want toassociate with X, Y, Z?
You know, do you want to be partof that?
What is that all about?
And that whole learning curve ofworking through that, at least
for me, was a huge part of myrecovery process.

(43:05):
You know, as you're talking andas you're moving.

SPEAKER_04 (43:08):
Okay, Nippy's got a P.
Can I keep going or should webust?

SPEAKER_05 (43:10):
Yes, no, you can keep going.
I I mean, or or we can't.
No, no, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_04 (43:14):
No, no, I'm fine.
I'm just gonna say, and I thinkthat this might help a lot of
people because uh as as Nippywas talking, I was like, what is
this for me?
Because what it is, I think, isthat I still trust people
generally, like I let peopleinto my life, but I think what's
changed, and this goes back tothe people pleasing, you know,
kind of goody two shoes, like ifsomething happened in the cult

(43:37):
in Nexium, I I was really goodat at like dismissing it or
explaining it or like, you know,even gaslighting myself as if
there was a reason thathappened, you know.
And I think that as a peoplepleaser or accommodator,
whatever you want to call it,out in the real world, never
mind cults, you know, ifsomebody does something to me or
just behaves in a way that thatI don't like.

(44:00):
I'm I'm more apt to kind offorgive them.
This is this is like before andthen even as I'm still as I'm
still unraveling.
Whereas now I'm trying to likelet it go.
Like if somebody doesn't treatme well, then that's it.

SPEAKER_05 (44:17):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (44:18):
You know, like I don't I'm not giving them uh uh
you know multiple chances.

SPEAKER_05 (44:23):
It's over No, it says more about them than it
says about you at the end of theday, right?

SPEAKER_04 (44:28):
Yes.
So I'm trying to like believepeople when they show me who
they are.

SPEAKER_05 (44:34):
Yes, oh my gosh, that is that is my mantra that
I'm like, yes, hurt people, hurtpeople, and when someone shows
you who they are, believe them.

SPEAKER_04 (44:43):
Yeah, and that's that's that's so I I'm I'm it's
not necessarily that I'm gonnacut the tie fully because
sometimes they're even family orthat like you they're part of
your social circle and you can'tnot relate with them, but I'm
not gonna let them into my innercircle.

SPEAKER_05 (45:00):
Yes, learning to set boundaries is is also so so
important.
Learning to set boundaries, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (45:06):
One of my favorite quotes is from this uh girl
Elise we interviewed about twoyears ago, and she's like, I set
boundaries to keep therelationship, not not end them.
And I was like, I'm gonna usethat.
I really, I really like that.
Yes, but I'm also at a point toowhere I'm not gonna yield to
someone else's version of theworld.

(45:27):
Yeah, so I'm pretty quick tokind of like I'm almost abrasive
about it sometimes.
And it's it's yeah, no, sorry.
Yeah, I get a little, I I get alittle res I get a little
resentful, then I recognizelike, you know, that's kind of
that's on me.
I I I they're not being they'renot being mean, right?

(45:49):
They're not being aggressive,they're just kind of like, you
know, it's when they makeblanket statements and I'll go,
no, this is how I think, and youknow, I'll communicate that like
that's not how yes.

SPEAKER_05 (46:01):
Though it's interesting to me as you're
talking that sometimes thatversion of events uh and your
natural reaction to go, well,wait a minute, no, no, no.
Even that engagement sometimesis just intended to lure you in
and keep it like disdisintegrate the boundary that

(46:22):
you've set, you know what I'msaying?

SPEAKER_02 (46:23):
And to normalize their version of the world, and
and really what I'm what I'msetting is is I'm not that's not
the version of the world thatI'm in.
And um that's all.
I mean, I don't, you know, umyeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 (46:40):
Okay, another another yeah, another thought
that um I wanted to ask orquestion thing that struck me.
So you were talking about your,you know, pre-cult or cult
person, uh, you know, yourghosts of yourselves that this
book was also intended for.
So looking back, uh if someonewere to tell you as you were

(47:03):
getting into Nexium or or evenin the early years or mid-the
experience that you'd be herenow doing what you're doing,
what would your reaction havebeen?

SPEAKER_04 (47:16):
I mean, that it would have been so shocking,
especially that we were soagainst Keith, you know.
And at the same time, I feellike it kind of makes sense.
Like it it it's uh really, yeah,the same thing.
Like it's it's we're so we're sowe're still the same people.
We still want to help people,we're still trying to make the

(47:38):
world better.

SPEAKER_02 (47:39):
What if I always had this what if this is bullshit?
Question.
Not and I didn't think it wasKeith.
I just thought, like, what ifthat what if me spending my time
trying to do this mission andand help people with their goals
is just what if it's not reallyworking?
Like, and I started looking atpeople around Keith who were on

(48:00):
his intense goal programs, andthere was no one in the
organization that I felt like Iwanted to be like, which is why
I left the first time.
I don't know if you knew this.
I had two I kind of two stintsfrom 2001 to 2003.
I was a coach.

SPEAKER_05 (48:12):
I learned that in the book.
I was I was like, oh mygoodness, wow.

SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
So I I left thinking, like, there's no one
here that's doing what I want todo.
I was 27, 28, and I was like,there's no one I really looked
up to, and there was no one thatwas really that successful out
in the world in the any sort ofmeaningful way that I wanted to
aspire to.
And I thought, well, you know,maybe just this goals part is
the good part.
Me looking at myself, evolvingcertain limiting beliefs makes

(48:37):
me more optimal in my world.
I can do that.
I can use the tools, I can usethe weights at the gym to be
stronger, but I don't have to gobe a trainer.

SPEAKER_06 (48:46):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
And then I got called back because you know,
you read it.
But my point is simply that likeI kind of felt like there was
aspects of it of like if this issuch a success program, why is
every all the are the coachespoor?
Yeah, why are they allstruggling to like, you know,
and so there was always a littlebit of that.
And how long can I do this?

(49:07):
Yeah, you know, there's thingsthere's things that there's
things that I want.
I have a kid now, so there's alot of things that I think were
facilitating our eventual exit,but not in the way that we
thought, and not in the way thatwe thought we'd have zero
relationship with theorganization and it would be
destroyed or anything like that.
It would just felt like, yeah,you know, we used to do this.
We're we teach on weekends nowor something like that.

(49:27):
It's kind of where I felt likeit may have headed.
Like a gradual departure versusyeah, but also like we were
already working on projectsoutside of it.
We had kind of there was thisgeneral feeling of like, I kind
of feel like this has run itscourse.
I don't mind teaching it, Idon't mind like that's kind of
the inertia, I think, of whereour lives were going.
And we weren't in Albany, so weweren't near them.

(49:49):
We were in Vancouver and we hada three-year-old, and like we
were looking to like, you know,that was gonna get a lot of our
life force, still gets our lifeforce, and there's really, I
think I speak for you when I saythis, nothing that was gonna get
in the way of how we were gonnaraise our kids for sure.

SPEAKER_04 (50:04):
Like for both of Sarah and I think we were super
aware of all that at the time,like it wasn't really until
retrofit.
Well, I mean, it's how we spentour time.
Yeah, we were pulling away, wejust didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 (50:13):
And Sarah and I, like, I mean, I think I speak
for Sarah to this, like, there'sreally not much more in my life
that's more fun than beingaround my kids, raising them and
watching them grow.
Like, I like, and I didn't knowI'd love it this much.
I mean, I really like I'm reallyI'm I really love like doing the
podcast, and then oh, I get togo hang with my kids.

(50:34):
Yeah, and I've got about five tosix more golden years with them
before they're like, screw you,dad, I know everything.
I'm joining a cult.

SPEAKER_05 (50:41):
Oh my gosh.
No, they won't.
No, they won't.

SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
No, they won't, but you know what I mean, right?
I'm gonna get this right, I'mgonna hit this out of the park.
And I'm yeah, I I I like doingit and I like that we have
something that can supplement itso we can do it.

SPEAKER_05 (50:54):
Yeah.
I when my kids were real little,I talked, I called into the uh
Dr.
Laura show, Dr.
Laura Schlessinger.
Um because I was trying toprocess like what do I tell my
kids when they realize they haveno grandparents in their lives?
And I had had that experiencewhen I was three of losing a
parent to Scientology and blamedit on myself.

(51:14):
It's one of my earliestmemories.
So I that was just like a realconflict for me.
And Dr.
Laura uh was just said outrightthat just always be honest and
truthful with your kids and umand they will never go down that
path.
So, in an age-appropriatefashion, you know, I've always

(51:35):
just told my kids, like when myoldest son was seven or eight,
one day he turned to me and hesaid, Mom, when did your mom
die?
And uh I I mean it took it waslike massive gut punch, but I'm
like, son, she's she's not dead.
She's just in a in ourorganization that is destroys
families.
And hopefully one day she wakesup and she'll talk to us, you

(51:58):
know.
Anyway, it's just like, ooh.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (52:01):
Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 (52:03):
Anyway, sorry, didn't didn't mean to go down
that dark of a rabbit hole.
It's intense.

SPEAKER_02 (52:09):
It's well, it's important to like, you know, you
have to share stories about howbad this can get.

SPEAKER_05 (52:14):
Yeah.
And the impact it has on kidsfor sure.
Age appropriate stuff is it'show you learn.

SPEAKER_02 (52:21):
I mean it's key.
Humanity keeps getting theselessons because we're not
pivoting to them.
So yeah, there you go.
You know, we gotta we gotta getit out there.

SPEAKER_04 (52:30):
And you remember when Troy I uh he must have been
in second grade or something.
He drew he drew a picture of aman.
It's a it's a this is Keithbehind bars.
My parents put him there.

SPEAKER_05 (52:41):
Oh my gosh, that is amazing.
Doesn't that not just yeah, whenyou say that I'm like, oh my
gosh, you know what?
We've got a picture of thatsomewhere.
We should we should make a postout of it.

SPEAKER_04 (52:54):
We should.

SPEAKER_02 (52:54):
We should all go visit him one day.

SPEAKER_04 (52:56):
So you want to go visit Keith Reneri with us in
prison?

SPEAKER_05 (52:59):
You want my honest answer?
Like, no, if you ask me to doit, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_01 (53:04):
But like I won't do it.

SPEAKER_04 (53:07):
I'd go with a would you see you want to bring a
pizza and eat it in front of himbehind the other side of the
glass?

SPEAKER_02 (53:12):
I've spent too much time with yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (53:14):
We can we can take a copy of your book and read it
and just have a like cult QA andlike oh I should we should mail
him.

SPEAKER_00 (53:21):
Mail him one.

SPEAKER_05 (53:23):
There you go.

SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_05 (53:26):
There you go.
See, when uh cult survivors cometogether, all kinds of brilliant
ideas come out of it.

SPEAKER_02 (53:32):
Just sign it 120.

SPEAKER_05 (53:35):
Yeah, right?
Hashtag 120.

SPEAKER_02 (53:37):
Hashtag 120.

SPEAKER_05 (53:38):
Oh my god, that's what's what's 120.
120 years in prison.
Oh, oh, of course.
See, I was like, which are wetalking January 20th, 120?
There you go.
See you you can you can say seeyou in whatever the year is.

SPEAKER_02 (53:53):
That's good.
But but but here's my favoritepart of his by 120 press.

SPEAKER_04 (53:58):
Trace 120 is the name of our Trace is Troy Nase.

SPEAKER_02 (54:01):
My favorite uh part of the sentence is that he gets
five years probation when he'sout.

SPEAKER_05 (54:09):
So 125, really.

SPEAKER_02 (54:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, he's got that probation,you know, to make sure he phys
rehabilitates back in society.

SPEAKER_05 (54:17):
There you go.
After 120 years, you would needto get 120 years to think about
it.
Yeah, anyway, amazing world.
Seriously, and that obviouslyyour son, I mean, that's just
beautiful that he recognizesthat.
He recognizes what you guysaccomplished and your bravery
and courage in doing so.

(54:38):
That's just really and we got alittle lucky.

SPEAKER_02 (54:41):
We had, you know, we were Sarah and I were lucky to
have um families to lean on.
Um, you know, we were peripheralto when the bomb went off.
We had shrapnel in us, it didn'tgo up off in our lap.
So we were less we had less torecover from, I think, in order
to get back on our feet and putlanguage to the story.
So and then we got we made a lotof good decisions in a really

(55:02):
short amount of time that led usto whatever happened for
whatever reasons.
And yeah, I'm still trying tofigure a lot of that out too,
because not a lot of people seejustice in this, and then not a
lot of people see justice asquickly as we saw justice.
And if there's if the currentheadlines are any indication of
how our justice system works, itmakes our story look that much

(55:23):
more amazing.

SPEAKER_04 (55:24):
So and it set precedent, like one day.

SPEAKER_02 (55:36):
So I feel good to be a part of that and throw my
punch.

SPEAKER_05 (55:40):
Yeah, no, seriously, it's it's inspiring and
reinvigorating and just so soimportant.
And I will I I would also liketo say, too, just hats off to
you both for weathering thestorm of living through a cult
and keeping your relationshipintact because I know that that

(56:01):
is no small feat.

SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
Thanks.

SPEAKER_05 (56:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
We learn to communicate in the cult.

SPEAKER_04 (56:08):
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:10):
If we're gonna get one thing right out of this,
it's like we learn tocommunicate with the smattering
of gaslighting.

SPEAKER_04 (56:16):
So we have to make sure that we communicate purely
without, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (56:21):
But so many relationships are destroyed by
cults.
I'm sure you've seen that many,many times on the podcast.
It's a statistical anomaly forto survive that and come out the
other side.
And, you know, of course, youknow, as I always say, show me a
perfect relationship and I'llshow you a perfect liar.
Of course, that's not the humanexperience.

(56:41):
Nonetheless, you've you've madeit this far.
So I just wanted to say hats offto you both, because I I do
understand it's it's it'ssomething.

SPEAKER_04 (56:50):
Oh, it is, yeah.
And for sure, they tried todrive a wedge between us while
we were in it, yes, and thendestroy us as we were leaving.
Yes.
Um, we heard a lot of storiesfrom people who stayed in after
us who were around theleadership and they were like
trying to dig up dirt and liketrying to find out find out like
what our that was one of themore shocking things.

SPEAKER_02 (57:13):
Um to actually have verified.
Like I kind of suspected it wasgoing on, and then I had a
friend who was playing bothsides and saying he was talking.
He's like saying he was talking,saying he was talking to like
the other side who's playingboth sides, yeah.
And he came to me and he said,Claire went with me on a walk

(57:33):
the other day and she asked mewhat dirt I had on you.
And I was like, wow, like it'sone thing to hear it and then to
have it kind of like experienceit and have it just hit, like,
oh, this is like this is likelike I knew it was it's so much
more real to have it happen toyou.

SPEAKER_05 (57:50):
I can't I'm sure you know, I'm sure you know it's
like seeing the underbelly ofthe beast that you had an idea
was real, idea, yeah, but youhadn't met the the beast and
look had to look it in the eyeand go, yeah, for sure.
I had that experience during ourlawsuit going through
deposition, and like, wow, thisis it's one thing something that

(58:13):
you know about in the backgroundthat happens to SPs and you know
it's over there.
It's another when you're livingthat experience yourself and
going, Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (58:24):
It's a gut punch.
Yes, it's a gut punch.
You go, oh my god, they'rewilling to do this, especially
and you're not, yeah, and you'renot.
Yeah, and that's like even whenit was done to me, I was like,
Well, what am I gonna do?
Like fight back and do like getinto the mud slinging.
Like, I don't I'm not that'snot, I don't want to do that.
I can't, that's not my lifeforce, it's theirs, and they and

(58:45):
they're and they've they'vethey're committed to it, and
it's like, oh shit, this isreal, yeah, absolutely, and
people are gonna believe it.
Like, people like people don'tknow you are gonna believe it,
and that has effects, and theyknow that and they're playing
that.
So it's just it's a weird thingto be on the other end of
viscerally.
Like I know it goes on, butanyway.

SPEAKER_05 (59:06):
Absolutely.
Okay, do you mind um indulgingme in uh a rapid fire section?
Sure.

SPEAKER_06 (59:12):
Oh, yeah, go.

SPEAKER_05 (59:13):
So um I'll give you the question and maybe you just
decide who goes first, but youboth give your answers
separately.
Does that work?
Okay, here's the first one.
Yeah, one word you would use todescribe Nexium now.
Defunct.
Nice, sniffy.

SPEAKER_02 (59:32):
Done, done.

SPEAKER_05 (59:33):
Done.
There we go.
Okay.
Biggest myth about cultsurvivors that they're dumb.

SPEAKER_02 (59:40):
Yeah, they're dumb.

SPEAKER_05 (59:42):
Yeah, good one.
I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 (59:44):
Or it's an intelligence thing.

SPEAKER_04 (59:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, same same thing, like allof them.
Weaker dump.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, here's the next one.

SPEAKER_02 (59:52):
July helps them.

SPEAKER_05 (59:53):
For sure.
Uh something people get wrongabout healing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:00):
That it has an endpoint.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:02):
Good, yeah, agreed.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:04):
Um a specific endpoint, like that it that it
has like a pres that like it hasa set time.
It's different for everybody.
It's not a prescription.
It's everyone's on their ownjourney.
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:14):
Like it's an item on your to-do list.
Okay, that's done now.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:17):
I'm done with that.
Did you say the biggest comes inwaves?
Like you might heal and thenthis is no longer rapid.
Sorry, you get knocked down.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:28):
Okay, here's the next one.
Hardest part of writing.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You just deflected.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:34):
What was the uh the biggest misconception about
healing?

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:39):
Something people get wrong about healing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:42):
I think some people don't think they can heal.
I think I think you can.
And time, time is a feature ofit.
It's in fact the biggest featureof it.
So time.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:54):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:55):
Good one.
Hardest part of writing thisbook.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:00):
Uh I love and hate this question.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:08):
Honestly, I think it's just the constraints on our
time.
Like it you really have to getinto an inertia.
I'm sure you know this withwriting.
And like I need I needed likethree to four hours and just
rarely had three to four hoursbecause there was always stuff
to do for our podcast, for life,for the house, for the boys.
Um, that it was just reallydifficult to keep it moving.
I mean, I joke that it was, youknow, it's it's hard to write a

(01:01:30):
book on your own, let alone withsomebody else, and also our, you
know, yeah, raise a kid andsleep in the same room and clean
in the same bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:38):
And yes.
Oh, you were just doing apodcast with me.

SPEAKER_06 (01:01:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:44):
Uh knowing when you're done.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:46):
Yeah, good one.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:47):
Like, oh I wrote this whole thing out.
I'm like, I think I got thepoint.
Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:52):
Yeah.
Okay, last one.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:00):
I don't know why the question just made me cry.
I don't even have an answer yet.
But I I feel empowered that wedid it ourselves without anyone
else's.
Um, I mean, many people helpedus, but I mean we didn't publish
traditionally, we published iton our own.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:15):
And um, that feels really good because as you know,
from being in a cult, you don'thave control and to have full
autonomy about what the coverlooked like and what was going
to be included and how manywords it was gonna be.
People gave us input, but wemade all the final calls, and
that was feels really good toget to the finish line and feel

(01:02:36):
very satisfied with thatprocess.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:38):
Yes, awesome, Nippy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:41):
Um, I remember saying something like seven
years ago about we want to turnour story into content and
wisdom.
And I think doing this and doingit in the format and how we've
done it is I think we just hitit out of the park.
Like I think our story and ourcontent is wisdom.

(01:03:02):
We've been able to add hundreds,300 over episodes to that
narrative and put out work thatwe can just go, okay, this
happened.
This is how Sarah and Icollectively handled it and
pivoted, pivoted based on ourmoral makeup, what we think is
right, how we went about it.
And that's my best shot atwriting a wrong and then turning

(01:03:25):
it into something else so itmoves, nudges humanity in a
direction so they don't have todo it.
And if you do happen to findyourself in it, here's how you
can handle it.
And we added to the fabric ofmorality or something, you know,
noble like that.
But I really do feel like I canfeel it when I'm talking about
it.
Like, dude, we did it and we andwe did it at personal cost, you

(01:03:47):
know, we lost a lot in this, andyou know, I can almost say it's
worth it, you know, to have asituation like that happen to
myself, turn it into somethinglike this, have a beautiful
wife, have two great kids, uh,be on the other end thriving of
it.
I didn't know that that wasgonna happen, you know, and I
was scared.
And you know, I'd never been ina lot of the situations I'd

(01:04:10):
been, I'd never been in asituation of really looking
internally and thinking, am Igonna have to use violence to
get out of this?
So those were like places I wentand found out I'm not that
person, found out, you know, umbecause I didn't know, like, and
part of me still doesn't.
Like, do you know what I mean?
But I never thought I'd be inthat internal struggle of going,

(01:04:31):
dude, I this is this issomeplace I never thought I'd
be.
Right.
And to to put it into this andand kind of feel like it's done
in a lot of ways.
Um feels great.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:45):
Yep, no, absolutely.
One of my favorite sentiments isour past doesn't define us, what
we do here and now does.
And you guys have both done anincredible job of sharing wisdom
and education to help peoplerecognize this form of just
control and the the nasty evilpart of humanity that is easy to

(01:05:09):
get tricked by.
So thank you both for youramazing work.
Again, I'll link to this book.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:15):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:15):
Get a copy of it, everybody.
It's a really good read.
And um, just thank you both foryour work and for sticking to
the to the course.
And you know, it's just amazingto have you both in the cult
recovery space.
So I'm super, super powerful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:32):
We we stand on the shoulders of people who came
before us.
Speaking of which, that's youguys, for sure.
So, and hopefully we'll be thesame to someone else, right?

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:41):
Should we mention who the book's dedicated to?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:43):
Yeah, of course we should.
Yes, please.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:45):
Oh my gosh, you're giving me goosebumps, you're
gonna make me cry, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:48):
That was a year ago, roughly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:50):
Because we we were finishing it the first time,
just after we went to Mike'smemorial.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:55):
I came back and said we're donating this to Mike
Rinder, whose legacy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:03):
I hope he's enjoying this conversation right now.
He's in our hearts.
He lives on through us and thework that we do, but 100%.
It was a beautiful.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:14):
It's yeah, it's it's an honor to do that.
It's an honor to have met him.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:18):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
He he loved you both dearly.
I will always remember that daywe met in Vancouver before we
were going on our it was acruise for Ark and I's 30th
wedding anniversary when we metyou both.
And I instantly was like, wow,these are awesome people.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:35):
Likewise.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:36):
Felt the same.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:37):
I didn't.
My only regret is I didn't knowyour story at the time.
No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:42):
So that was a total.
We got to know you backwards,Claire.
We were like Claire and Mark,and then we go watch.
We go, wait, were those the twopeople we just met?

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:51):
It's felt better that way because it would have
been all weird and fangirly.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:54):
That's what no, it was better because not for that
reason, because that's just anot my jam, but but for the
reason that it's there's a lotof heavy pieces to it, and I
loved that our meeting wasthrough our mutual friendship
with Mike, and therefore it wasjoyful.
And you know, the rest, yeah,the the other pieces could come
afterwards, and that's totallyfine.

(01:07:15):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:16):
And they have, and they have, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:18):
Thank you so much, Claire.
Yes, thank you both for joiningme.
I really appreciate it, andwe'll talk soon.
You bet.
See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:29):
Thanks for watching.
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You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good Behind

(01:07:52):
the Iron Curtain of Scientology,in hardback, Kindle, and Audible
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There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
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And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
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(01:08:12):
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Thanks a lot, until next time.