Escaped a Cult, Now What? - Secrets Of Scientology #4

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The first days of freedom don’t come with instructions. We walked out with a suitcase, a borrowed car, and a head full of rules to unlearn—then found a pizza shop with a Help Wanted sign and realized the world outside wasn’t the barren wasteland we’d been promised. That small win set the tone: get a job, get an apartment, build credit from zero, and discover that time—afternoons, dinners, holidays—is a muscle you have to stretch back to life.

We open up about the invisible work of recovery: nightmares that mirror the hallways we left, the guilt that lingers when control is gone, and the way old messages echo when you try something new. We compare the myths we were told—leave and your marriage will collapse; the outside world is hostile; you’ll never make it—to what actually happened. With humor and candor, we share the joys and stumbles of starting over, from forgetting to ask a wage at an interview to navigating rent with no credit. We talk about boundaries too: why we refused “routing out,” what gray-rocking looks like when harassment ramps up, and how to protect energy for the life you’re building.

Along the way, we map the broader system: digitized files, “connections lists,” surveillance habits that turn people into case numbers. We explain how information—books, documented histories, survivor accounts—became sunlight, dissolving fear and restoring judgment. Most of all, we highlight the power of community and therapy for former members: common language, solved mysteries, and practical support that accelerates healing. If you’re rebuilding after a high-control group, or helping someone who is, this conversation offers tools, hope, and a reminder that ordinary life is a radical act of freedom.

If this resonated, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review—we read every word and it helps others find their way to solid ground.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:25):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the channel.
Welcome to another episode ofBlown for Good, Scientology
Exposed.
I am joined in live.
We're live today, and I'm joinedhere by my lovely wife, Claire.

SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
Hey, hey, hey.
Happy Valentine's Day,everybody.

SPEAKER_03 (00:42):
Oh, yeah, it's Valentine's Day.

SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (00:45):
I I have a few people that I know that say
Valentine's Day.
It's Valentine's Day.

SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Valentine's.

SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Valentine's instead of Valentine's Day.

SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
Um anyway, um, yeah, happy Valentine's Day.
Um we're gonna go have a nicedinner after this, guys.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
Yes, we are.
We had 13 years of or 14 yearsof not being able to celebrate
Valentine's Day.
If I was lucky I got flowers.
Yeah on some if you were gettingpaid.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15):
Yeah, that and that was also very rare that I was
getting paid and had access toflowers and uh was in the same
location as you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
Right.
In the same state or uh city.
So these days, because of that,we make a point of celebrating
Valentine's Day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
We celebrate everything, babe.
Birthdays, Valentine's,anniversary.
Anniversary.
What this this new year is 34,right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
34 years.

SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
In August.
34 years in August, folks.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Boom.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47):
She deserves a medal.

SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
Well, you do too.
I have my moments.

SPEAKER_03 (01:55):
Um so yeah, what we wanted to talk about today,
we're not gonna do a bunch ofslides, we're not gonna do a
whole bunch of stuff.
Um, we're just gonna have alittle chat with you guys.
And um and we'll probably um, ifwe have time, which we should,
we can answer questions at theend.
Um the broadcast platform thatwe use, if you write question
and then say what you what thenstate your question, it'll

(02:19):
actually highlight it as aquestion in um in our little
dashboard here.
So it's much easier for us topick it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (02:25):
And then we will also do all the shout-outs to
where everybody's uh tuning infrom uh near the end of the
video.
We got uh YouTube uh YouTubesaid that uh they don't people
don't like that when we spend afew minutes doing the shout-outs
at the beginning.
They just want to get they wantto get some uh they want us to
dish on Scientology.
And um so we move that to theend.

(02:46):
It just works out a little bitbetter for the new viewers that
uh are tuning in, and also thesevideos play and replay.

SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
So yeah, exactly.
Nonetheless, we appreciateeveryone joining us this fine
Saturday.
Uh so yeah.
And today I was thinking wewould talk about kind of some of
the immediate things thathappened right when we got out
and the steps we took to towardsrecovering and getting our feet

(03:14):
on the ground and um building ameaningful life after 30 years
of craziness.

SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
Yeah.
I think you know, obviouslyevery person is different when
they leave, and also how longthey were in and where they were
and also how they got in in thefirst place.

SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Like I was born into it, you got in at age six, you
know.
So to me, there's two differentcategories of people.

SPEAKER_03 (03:42):
Well, at least two.

SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
At least two, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (03:44):
Because then there's people that joined when they
were in right out of college orwhile they were in college.

SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
But most times the two the the two biggest
categories are either born in orgot in as a young, vulnerable
person, often in a bad placethat Scientology preyed on.
Like that was my mom'ssituation.
Um she was rebelling against aRoman Catholic upbringing and
had gotten pregnant out ofwedlock, God forbid.

(04:11):
I was I was uh about to be abastard by definition.

SPEAKER_03 (04:16):
That's a big deal in England.

SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Yeah, she got pregnant with me when she was
17.

SPEAKER_03 (04:21):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Yikes.

SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
Yikes is right.
So my grandmother very quicklyarranged a wedding when my mom
was like eight months pregnantwith me.

SPEAKER_03 (04:32):
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Anyway, but yeah, the scandal.
The scandal.
I know.
Well, you know my family.
There's no lack of scandal.
We won't go there.
That's a dark pandoric.

SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
Most of them are pretty chill.
Yeah.
It's just a few.

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
A few.

SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
A few doing Scientology, a few doing some
other stuff over here.

SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
How many kids she had seven or eight brothers?

SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
How many So my mom was one of seven.
Seven.

SPEAKER_03 (05:02):
That's funny because my mom.
I might think my mom was one ofseven or eight.

SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
I thought it was nine even.

SPEAKER_03 (05:10):
You're right.

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (05:11):
Was it?
Yeah.
So they were both from hugefamilies.

SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
Yeah, and my grandma was one of twelve.
My m my grandma is from Cork,Ireland.
She was one of twelve.
Wow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (05:24):
I'm jamming out the farm hands on that one, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gotta get some sheep herders outof the biggest.

SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
So I have to just get this in here.
So our our middle son, who'sabout to turn 18, unbelievable,
and about to graduate highschool, is going to take a trip
to Ireland later this year.
So I was like, oh, we're fromIreland.
So I started looking up ourfamily lineage and so forth.
And I told you this, but I waslike, oh, look, I'm related to

(05:50):
the first Irish lady that everclimbed Mount Everest.

SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, Claire's got some of anEverest gene in her.

SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
He was like, oh, no wonder you're like a mountain
goat that climbs up the mountainevery day.

SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
Literally what I said.

SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Anyway, yes.
So all of that to say, let'swe'll we'll talk about some of
the things that happened rightafter we got out and kind of
some of the the challenges weran into.
And you know, the so originallywhen we um when I finally
reunited with you af three weeksafter you escaped, we were in

(06:28):
Missouri, Kansas City, Missouriarea.

SPEAKER_03 (06:30):
Aaron Ross Powell Lee Summit.

SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Lee Summit, Missouri.

SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
Which we love, by the way.
It was very nice to do.

SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
Oh, we did.
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
I'm not a real big fan of humidity.
And they have do have a littlebit of a more humidity than I
like to uh tolerate.

SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Then bigger bugs.

SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
But it was a nice where we lived was nice.
And you know, you we when wewere there, Claire didn't have a
job, and I was fixing computers,doing uh computer repair.
And when we went out to get youa job, we got you a job within
literally like 15 minutes, Ithink.
Within leaving the house to lookfor a job, you had a job.

SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yeah, and that that was um interesting because I'd
never had a real-world jobbefore.
So I had no resume, you know, Ihad no, I'd never even attended
high school.
Um, but we just we had no car.
So we went to local businessesthat would that were within

(07:28):
walking distance of your dad'shouse.

SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
Yeah, like within a 10-minute walk of the house is
where we looked to see if wecould get you a job.

SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
Yeah, and we've told the story before, but um I I
it's one of those memories thatjust sticks out in my mind of
you, you know, we borrowed yourdad's car to go drive around
because he was out of town.
And so we went to a fewdifferent places, but we ended
up at the pizza shop, which wasagain walking distance pizza,

(07:56):
just a little pizza parla umplace.
And I just said, Hey, you know,yeah, I'm just moved here from
California.

SPEAKER_03 (08:03):
Well, there was a help wanted sign.
Yes, they did have a help wantedsign in the in the window.

SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Yeah, and and I filled out the application and
then went in for an interview,and they were like, Great, looks
good.
Can you start on Monday?
And I was like, Yep, great, I'llbe here.
Come back out to the car.
I'm like, I got the job.
And you're like, so how much arethey gonna pay you?
I'm like, I forgot to ask.

(08:28):
Just like, doesn't matter whenyou've been making, you know,$46
on a good week.

SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
How much am I gonna make?
One of the key parts of a job,how much will I be earning each
hour?

SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah, and I want to say it was like two dollars and
fifty cents an hour plus tips.

SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
Yeah.
And you did you slayed on tips,which I was very, very surprised
that you're probably makingabout, I don't know, maybe
twenty, twenty-five dollars anhour with tips.
And um and I was baffled.
I had no idea that's how itworked.

SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Yeah.
I didn't either.

SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
That, you know, and again and again, Mark likes to
joke about how I'm very c uh tipconscious as a result of that.
I know, I know, but m you arebecause I am.

SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
It's the it's only in the States, by the way.
And it's more prevalent incertain places.
But when you go over to Europeor you go to Denmark or, you
know, one of these uh Sweden,they're like, there's no tips.
We or France, even when we're inFrance, we are paid enough to
have a living.
We don't need the tip.
It's sort of like but in Americathey pay you very low so that

(09:43):
you rely on the tip.

SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
Yep, exactly.
Yeah, anyway, so uh and Iarrived in Kansas City on the
the night of the 25th.
So I January.
Yeah, January, yeah, exactly.
The night of January 25th, 2005.
And tying into today's video, Iremember that by Valentine's

(10:06):
Day, 2005, we had just movedinto an apartment.
And so that apartment was what,like 10 minutes drive from your
dad's house?

SPEAKER_03 (10:17):
Yeah, it was it was it was of you know, yeah, 10
minutes I'd say, maybe a littlemore, maybe a little less,
depending on traffic.
But even when we got out and wewere staying with my dad, we
only stayed in with with my dadfor a few weeks.
Um, and I had been for for formany weeks, I had been making um
uh pr b about fifty dollars anhour as my first job out of the

(10:40):
Sea Org.
So I was literally making morein one hour than I had been
making in a week if we got paid.
Right.
And so I was kind of like, thisis a this is cake.
Like this is they when you're inthis sea organization
specifically, they tell youthere's a lot of preaching about

(11:01):
how horrible the world is, andeverybody out in the real world
is a is a uh robber or a uh youknow, uh up to no good, drug
addicts, uh just criminals anddrug addicts, really, is what
everybody is.
Or flipping burgers.
Or oh yeah, and if you end upgetting a job, the best you'll
be able to do is flippingburgers.

(11:22):
And and I remember thinking,flipping burgers would be quite
nice at this point.
I think I would flip a burger.
I flip a I think I'd flip a fewthousand burgers other than
being here.
Um so for me, um, and also wenever really talked about what
happened at the base, which Ijust realized when when I was

(11:45):
thinking about what we wouldtalk about on this video.
We never sat down and and talkedabout what happened at the base.

SPEAKER_01 (11:52):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (11:52):
It was just like we're not there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (11:55):
Now we're living uh in paradise, basically.
We could do whatever we want,whatever we want.

SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (12:01):
Um I'm making money, you're making money.
We it was kind of like um thisisn't what they said it was.
No.
And people aren't who they saidthey were.

SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yeah, really, the the conversation we had
initially.
So you picked me up at the busstation, and then we went to
Denny's, I want to say.

SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
No, I don't think they have Denny.

SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
No, it was like a or it was a diner.
It was a diner, because I I waslike, hey now.

SPEAKER_03 (12:28):
Two days hungry.

SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Let's talk.
Yeah, yeah, two days hungry.
I mean, well, months hungry bythat point.
Years.
Um, but I was like, we do needto have a conversation about
what the heck you left mebehind.
And also I needed to clear theair on the lies they told me,
which was that you had calledthe police.

SPEAKER_03 (12:48):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
It's like I didn't call the police.
Yeah.
They they ran me off the road.
Uh the police just showed up outof nowhere.
I didn't know what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (12:58):
It was only many, many years later that we found
out that somebody driving by,when they ran me off the road
when I was trying to escape,that somebody had called 911.
And that's why the police showedup.
That's right.
I thought it was just like I wasjust real lucky.

SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Or real unlucky initially, right?
You're like, I'm trying toescape and now I'm getting
pulled over.
What what in the what?

SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
Either way, we didn't really talk about that at
all.
No.
And it was just sort of like,yeah, we're not there anymore.
Uh, we're doing this now, andlet's figure out what let's
figure out how this works.
And I want to say.
I want to say for me, it waseverything was easy.

(13:42):
It was like everything was oneasy mode.
I was making a ton of dough,doing the stuff I already knew
how to do really well.
Work with computers and andstuff like that.
Um, getting an apartment was alittle rough because we had zero
credit.
So we had to have my dad uhco-sign for us.

SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
And I I will say, at least from my perspective, it
was a little scary, challenging,like, oh gosh, now we're we're,
you know, have to and not thatit we wouldn't be able to pay
the monthly rent, but it wasjust a new thing, like having
monthly bills and that was justnot something that we were used

(14:21):
to.

SPEAKER_03 (14:22):
Yeah.
I think that is one of the mainsort of things that when you
know you're in a cult is theyare making it they're putting it
on easy mode for you so you cando as much work as possible for
them.
Right.
So you don't have to worry aboutthe cooking the three meals.
You don't have to b uh you don'thave to worry about you the if

(14:45):
you're gonna have a place tostay or not.
You don't really have any bills,any monthly bills.
And and there's not reallyeverything is structured and set
up so that you will be in thisplace with no distractions, and
you can just be head down, bumup, working and getting stuff

(15:05):
done for us.
And then if you if you that theand that in itself is sort of a
security blanket.
Oh you basically can just coastthrough as long as you're
working, you don't really haveto worry about anything except
for how much work you're gettingdone.

SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
And so then you rely on that.
And I think for some people, ifthey decide that they don't want
to be there anymore and theywant to leave, then becomes the
uncertainty of how am I gonnaget food, how where am I gonna
stay, where am I gonna work?

SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
The flip side of that and thedownside is you have an extreme
lack of independent resources,and you feel that you know
you're just kind of well, thepath of least resistance is just
to keep keep working, keepgoing, you know, suffer through

(15:59):
the the abuse and the challengesand all that, because at least
everything's provided for.

SPEAKER_03 (16:05):
Um and especially if you're like us, we didn't know
any different.
Right.
So we were always in thatenvironment, and that was sort
of always the way it was.
W we were either uh living withour parents or in the Sea Orc.
Yes.
You know, we weren't on our ownout in the world doing, you
know, going n doing a nine tofive job and having insurance

(16:28):
and an apartment.
And we were just it was alwaysjust somebody else's providing
everything.
And now we're completely on ourown.
The only person that we could uhlook to for help was my dad.

SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (16:42):
And he was he was working, he was he he traveled
for um IBM doing major refreshesof you know Walmarts or banks
and putting taking out all theirold computers and putting in new
computers.
And so he was on the road a lot.
And sometimes he'd take his car.
So we would we would be strandedif we didn't kind of figure

(17:03):
something out pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (17:06):
Anyway, but I don't think I think the only thing
that sort of was like we werestill dealing with being there
was I would have nightmaresalmost every single night about
that we were back there againand that we were trapped there
again.
And and then sometimes I wouldtell you.

SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Yeah, I want to say it was like a year after we
left.
It had been a while.
And you and we were talking tosomebody and you mentioned
nightmares, and I was like, ohmy gosh, you're having
nightmares too.
But like we then and then wecompared notes and realized we
were both having really graphicnightmares.

SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
Aaron Powell But everybody that we talked to was
having nightmares.
That as somebody that was an uhex-Siorg member where we worked,
one for one, they were havingnightmares.
And whenever and and it wasn'tlike they had 20 nightmares and
10 were about that place.
No.
They had 20 nightmares and 20nightmares were about that

(18:05):
place.
Yep.
So then that's where I startedto think like, hmm.
And that I think is another keything about when you leave
Scientology, you the way itworks when you leave is now
you're questioning, you're justfull-time questioning your
decisions based on everythingthey taught you.
You're doing everything thewrong way now.

SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (18:27):
And everything's gonna turn out horribly based on
this.
And you're constantly having totell yourself, maybe that's not
true, or maybe this can work adifferent way.
So you have to kind of I thinkfor the first few years, you
just kind of have to unlearneverything that they taught you.
Yep.
And maybe some of those thingswere good for business or good

(18:50):
for productivity, and maybe theyweren't, and you don't know
which which way it is until youyou kind of have to go in the
real world and then sort of seehow everybody else is doing it
to kind of maybe meet somewherein the middle.

SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Aaron Ross Powell For sure, totally.
Like I remember being reallyworried and concerned that our
marriage would fall apartbecause that was also one of the
things that they said.
I mean, we really had the first13 years of our marriage was in
one very extreme environment.
And then, you know, we from forall intents and purposes, kind

(19:30):
of s had to start over.
It was like, you know, a new,completely different set of
circumstances.
And they had that was anotherline that they would say is, oh,
anyone who escapes, they theyjust their marriages don't last
and they fall apart and allthis.
And it was really like, I waslike, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
They do say that.
Like as soon as they escape.
She went after him and then hehe deserted her, and then she
lost her whole family becausethey weren't together, and
you're just like, okay.
You know, like Yeah.
And I remember being Sometimesthose couples were a little you
would some couples that where weworked, it was it they were a

(20:10):
couple by of opportunity becausethere's not there's there's
there's so many people there, somany are married, so many are
not in the market or notcompatible, and so it's very
slim pickings when it comes tomatching up with somebody to
find your soulmate at thatplace.

SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Yeah, do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
You're never gonna see them anyway.
Yeah, remember that list we puttogether years ago of all the
people who had gotten divorcedand yeah, there was some gals
that had they were like they hadlike four or five, I think uh
there was a few gals there thatwere married six or seven times.
So like they would get married,and then maybe they'd go to the

(20:51):
RPF.
And then so that would be adivorce, and then they'd get out
of the RPF and then they'd getmarried to somebody else, and
then and then the husband wouldgo to the to the RPF and then
they'd get divorced, and then sosometimes you'll see people I
mean, that's another challenge,is when we're trying to think of
people, and you go, Oh, that wasBaba Ba Morrison.

(21:12):
It's like she's not she wasn'tMorrison, she was this.
It was like, no, no, no.
She before that she was marriedto Sean Morrison, and then she
was Chloe Morrison, and thenyou're just like, There's like
Kathy D.
Simone or uh Kathy Hawkins orKathy Frazier, um and probably a
few other last names that wedon't even know.
At least one other.

(21:32):
But so she was three differentKathes while we were there.
So some people will have on thelist and they'll be like, why do
you have Kathy D.
Simone and and Kathy Frazier andKathy Hawkins on this list and
be like, oh, those are all thesame person?
Yeah, they're all that's all onegal, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Yeah, for sure.
For for a group that allegesthat they have the technology to
clear the planet, they certainlydon't have marriages figured
out.
That's for darn sure.

SPEAKER_03 (21:58):
Well, no, they do.
That is number of marriages.
So they want to get as manymarriages in as possible.

SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
Oh my goodness.
Oh.

SPEAKER_03 (22:08):
But then the other thing I I think so we started
talking with other people slowlyover the first year or two.
We started connecting up withpeople that were there.
And there's there were twocamps.
They were either, oh, I'm nevergoing back.
It's all nuts.
It's all crazy.

(22:28):
Two, well, I'm still trying todo my steps to get back in good
standing with them so that Icould speak to my rest of my
family.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Yep.
And then there was those thatthere was another camp which was
like, well, the organization isbad and abusive, but I still
want to, you know, believe inthe technology or whatever.
A lot of those people.
That was kind of usually asegue, like that was part of the
transition out.

SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
Like you never went through that step.
I never went through that phase.
We were like independent.
We were like, hell no.
No.
And I've said often the momentit was a choice for me, I was
like, I'm done.
The only for a few weeksinitially I did um reach out to
Kirsten Catano at Office ofSpecial Affairs and say, like,

(23:21):
well, here I am in Missouri.
So now what?
Um, because I was holding outhope to be able to speak to my
family, not that I wantedanything to do with Scientology
anymore.
So for a hot minute I wastalking to you and c
contemplating going back to getinterrogated.

SPEAKER_03 (23:38):
Well, yeah.
It was sort of like, well, ifyou want to talk to your family
again, you at least have to getin good standing with them.
Right.
You have to come back and routeout.
Yeah, you don't have to be oncourse, you don't have to be in
the Sea Org.
You don't have to be working inan organization.
You just have to, they basicallyhave to know that you're not
going to say anything bad aboutthem.

(24:00):
And then they're going to makesure as part of the routing out,
the reason it's called routingis because they have a thing
called a routing form.
There's a routing form foranything that you're going to do
in Scientology in anorganization.
And one of those routing formsis a leaving staff routing form.

SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
And so what you basically have to do is the
first step is you need toconfess all of your crimes,
everything bad you've ever donein your entire life, so that
they've got the dirt on you.
And then you you have to gothrough interrogations and they
want to basically probe you andand interrogate you to find out
if you're thinking about sayingany nonsense about them.

(24:39):
And then once they'veadjudicated that you're you're
gonna go your merry way andyou're not gonna say anything,
then they sort of give you aprogram of all these things that
you need to do.
And if you do those, then maybethey'll let you talk to your
family again.
And you don't know until you getto the very end of that list.
And there have been people whoget to the very end of that list

(25:02):
and then they say, No, you can'ttalk to your family ever again.
And then those are the peoplethat start saying, Hey, this is
what they did to me, and Iplayed by all the rules, and
then they still didn't let metalk to my family.
Yep.
And then there's some peoplethat are just like, Hey, you
need to come back, and you'relike, uh, screw you, I ain't
coming back.

(25:23):
And now that you've mentionedyou don't want me to say
anything, I might get up tosaying some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Yep.
Yeah, and I will say that whenwe f when so when we first
arrived in Missouri, I for surethought that they would just
leave us be and you know, afteryes, we had those initial
conversations about, well, youhave to come back and route out
and blah, blah, blah.
And and then it they just wentradio silent for for for a

(25:52):
while.
So I was like, oh good, maybethey're just you know, they've
just decided to leave us alone.
Um but that wasn't the case.

SPEAKER_03 (26:04):
Yeah.
And also when we when we firstleft, I mean he I mean within
seconds of me leaving, theytried to run me off the road in
a motorcycle, and I could havebeen uh seriously injured.
Yes.
Luckily for me, I don't even Iguess just because I was the
adrenaline was so crazy.

(26:24):
When they when I got uh run offthe road, I just popped right up
and was like, you know, intoaction.
I wasn't even thinking about andI don't even think I don't even
think for a second I thought,um, oh, am I injured or
anything?
I was more worried that the bikewas injured because that's how I
was gonna escape.

SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
Yeah.
But and your suitcase hadspilled and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (26:46):
But that was that was what they did to me within a
minute of me leaving.
So already I was sort of reallylike this is you guys are crazy.
Yep.
And then, you know, in thesubsequent weeks and month
months, getting on the internetand reading about Scientology
and the internet, that just mymy uh uh uh un however

(27:12):
deprogramming, my deprogramminghappened within a matter of a f
of I'd say a month.
Yeah, in a month, I was like,it's total nonsense.
I've I've looked up all thethings about Xenu and the body
Thetans and all the crazy spacecootie stuff, and nothing
happened.
I know all the dirty stuff thatthey were up to.

(27:32):
I could see all the differentpeople that had escaped over the
years and what they were doingand how they had spoken out, and
Scientology didn't do anything.
So then I was sort of like, hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Yeah, and I will say that um because my mom joined
the C organization when I wasfour years old, it took me much
longer to um decide to go on theinternet and all that.
And so and I knew you werelooking up stuff on the
internet, but that scared thecrap out of me, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 (28:03):
I was like, ooh, you know Well, yeah, because you
were believing all the the hokeypokey about all the nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
But to clarify though, it's not that I believed
it, it's that I was there was alot of fear associated with it
because of the so many becauseof growing up in that and the
indoctrination.
So it's not even that I, youknow that I um didn't, you know,
it wasn't a matter of belief, itwas a matter of fear.

(28:31):
That's my point.

SPEAKER_03 (28:31):
Yeah.
And I was as the more I read,the more I wasn't as scared of
them at all.
Like, oh, they're basically justbig bad bullies.
Yes.
They've got all these poorpeople that they're taking
advantage of, and they literallyclaim to believe in cr in aliens

(28:52):
infesting our bodies.
And then you're going like, ifthey believe that, then I don't
want anything to do with theseguys.
These guys are nuts.
And they're mean as well.
So it's sort of like vindictive.
You don't need a lot of youdon't you you need less crazy in
your life than you need more.
So if if if I can get rid ofthat part and I don't have to

(29:16):
hang out with people that aremean to me, I'm like, that's a
twofer, you know?
This is a bargain for me.
I'm gonna not have anything todo with them.
But then when we started talkingto other people, we started
finding out that we all sort ofhad the same exact story.

SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:34):
They were gaslighting us, making us think
we were the ones that were crazyand and doing the wrong things
and being evil.
And then you you talked to 20other people that they they
thought the exact same thing.
Yes.
And then as soon as we startedsharing stories, then people
started not being afraid andalso realizing, oh, yeah, we're

(29:57):
we're the we're the saner oneson this side of this coin.
Yes.
And they're the ones that are upto nonsense.
Yeah, the minute you get tocompare notes and talk about
things freely, it the you startdecompressing, it accelerates
the decompression because thenall of a sudden, like you said,
you you can be like, oh, itwasn't just me that thought

(30:18):
that, wow, David Miscavige is apsychotic, abusive, you know, uh
megalomaniac controlling POS andum He's literally yelling at us
that we're not getting enoughwork done and then disappears
and goes on a yacht with TomCruise for two weeks.
And you're sort of like, how inyour brain does that make any

(30:41):
sense?
Yeah.
I'm a slacker, I'm only working120 hours a week, bare minimum,
and you're on a yacht with TomCruise, or you're in Alaska
snowmobiling, or you're you'rewith your personal trainer on
the free winds doing scubadiving lessons.
Yeah.
You're just like, what what inwhat world am I the bad guy?
Right.
So but you but you only when youyou start figuring that out, I

(31:06):
think that's when the the mentalor the the healing starts so
that you're not thinking it wasyour fault that you can't talk
to your family ever again.
Or it's your fault that you, youknow, this happened or that and
then you just start realizing,no, those are those were bad
people.

SPEAKER_01 (31:25):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (31:26):
And it's unfortunate that our family are still
involved with the bad people.
Yes.
But it's not our family's fault.

SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
As m i i I mean, they have some part of the
blame.

SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
I do.

SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
But then but I would say if you get mixed up with a
bad organization, bad thingshappen.
So uh it's sort of like when youkind of come it for some people
that could take a year to kindof resolve that some people
that's they're never gonna beable to resolve that.
And so there's those two andthen there's everybody in the

(31:57):
middle.
But but the one thing that weknew was helpful was at least
talking about it with otherpeople and completely finding a
community of people whounderstood what we'd been
through, that we understood whatthey'd been through.

SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
You know, the language piece is uh, of course,
a huge element that isolates youand makes you feel alone and um
distraught and like, oh my gosh,now what?
Um but like you said, the thefreedom though to create and
build a life, even with all ofthat, still was overwhelmingly

(32:36):
positive in our experience.
And it like, you know, didn'teven matter how much I was gonna
make at my job because I had ajob and I was making some money
and it was more than$46 a week.
And, you know, sure, initiallylike and actually when we first
got that apartment, we didn'teven have our belongings back
yet.

SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
That's true.
We literally moved into atwo-bedroom apartment.
We went to Goodwill or we wentto whatever the thrift store
they had there.

SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
No, and and we would get so at that time that this
was you know 2005.
It was before I think it waseven before Craigslist, if I
remember correctly.
But I remember we got in a localnewspaper and we just went in
the you know, the classifiedads.
That's right.
And we went and got we went andgot a couch.

SPEAKER_03 (33:21):
Yeah, we were calling people classified to get
used furniture.

SPEAKER_00 (33:25):
Yeah.
And I remember going tosomebody's house and we got we
got the couch that we got, andthen we went to Goodwill and we
got that bed.
And you know, and again, it wasjust like, you know, well, what
can we afford?
And let's just put pull thingstogether and and eventually we
didn't.

SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
Well, even when we got our stuff, we threw like
almost all of it away.
It was just junk.
Yeah.
It was so we don't need any ofthese.

SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
We had no furniture, of course, because it was just
cloth old clothes and just thebiggest thing was the best part
of getting our belongings backwas that we got our two
motorcycles and we got our dog.

SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
Let's let's not forget about number three.
I got my depeche mode collectionback.

SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
I had I had an enormous amount of vinyl that I
had collected from the early1980s, as well as CDs and
cassettes and all thesedifferent things.
And when we covered, we did thewe did the video.
We did.

SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
We did a separate video of the crazy 60-page
single-line item inventory thatthey did by box, and we told
that whole story.
We'll link to that video in thevideo description.
For anyone who hasn't seen that,go watch that because you want
to see next level crazy inScientology.
That is next level.

SPEAKER_03 (34:41):
Yeah.
And I think there was like a fewpages of just lists of depeche
mode albums and CDs and shampoobottle, half full.

SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
And you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 (34:52):
But even when we got that stuff, by the time we got
it, I think we left in January.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
We moved into this apartment in February, and then
it was mid-April.
So February, March, April.
So two months that we hadliterally like, you know,
whatever we had.
Whatever we had.

SPEAKER_03 (35:10):
We went and got some clothes for you.
We went and got some clothes forme.
Yep.
And then otherwise, we didn't wedidn't really just didn't have
any.
We had an apartment and we hadthe bare, bare necessities.
Like we had some of the bbathroom stuff, the bedroom
stuff, and some silverware andsome paper plates.
Yes.
And we were like, okay, we're upand running.

SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I would say this reminds metoo, one of the biggest
adjustments that I had to gothrough was how much time we had
on our hands.
Like we, you know, I would getoff work at like 4 p.m.
And it was like, now what?
Like, okay, I'll make dinner.

(35:51):
Uh and so what about all therest of the day?
What do I do now?
It was it was a huge adjustmentfor me.

SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
Yeah, I think that's when we were watching a lot of
movies and we were doing thatkind of thing.
So pretty much the entire timethat we were in Kansas City, we
weren't talking aboutScientology.
We weren't doing any we hadnothing to do with it.
We were just completely resetour lives and we're just doing
trying to be everyday people andfigure out what everyday people

(36:22):
are supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 (36:23):
Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
And I don't think we evenexplained it or where we came
from or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
Like No, my dad found out most of what happened
when he read my book.
He even I mean he had heardstories here and there, but when
he read the book, he was like, Ihad no idea it was that bad.
And I was like I was like, yeah,it's not an easy way to say all
that.

SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (36:47):
And and and to to one person or just a couple of
people.
It's the that's the other m goodor bad.
As soon as somebody asks you andyou start talking about it, and
you say one random thing, andthey're just like, oh my gosh,
that's the craziest.
And you're like, that's thecraziest thing you've ever

(37:07):
heard?
That was one of the silly thingsthat I was telling you.

SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
That wasn't Yeah, this was supposed to be a light
story, not a like, oh my God,what have you been through?
Yeah.
I know I've had the I had thesame reaction initially too.
Like, you know, there's anynumber of things that you can
start talking about and yourealize the impact it's having
on the person, but that reactionalso helps you process, like,
oh, I thought this was normal,or I thought this was just an

(37:32):
everyday thing that, you know,it's just was part of my life.
And but then someone who has hadno experience, no exposure, no
knowledge, and seeing theirreaction helps you go, like,
wait a minute, this is notnormal.

SPEAKER_03 (37:50):
Yeah.
And that was sort of when wewould just casually, if somebody
really they or they already kindof knew or they knew something,
and or they looked us up andthey could see that we had
because you can pretty much geton the internet and find out if
somebody was in there.
If they completed one or twocourses in Scientology and

(38:10):
Scientology put out a magazinesaying that, then it's most
likely on the Internet.
So you can find a lot of thosethings.
But um when then let's say fastforward to when we moved back to
Los Angeles, because I wasoffered a uh a very high-paying
position at a company in LosAngeles.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
With By by an OSA spy, no.

SPEAKER_03 (38:31):
Yeah, spy somebody who was specifically trying to
get us back into the the LAarea.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
Where they could more carefully monitor and
control our activities.

SPEAKER_03 (38:41):
Trevor Burrus But only when we I felt that we were
being messed with by them, likethey weren't just going to leave
us alone.
And the more I kind of figuredout that this whole thing is
just a racket and they're justtrying to get people's money and
they're ruining lives andfamilies and everything in
between.

SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
Then I sort of started to post things.
There was a website calledOperation Clambake, and they had
a message board, and there was alot of people on there telling
stories that hadn't been wherethey were, or they didn't know
exactly.
They were just guessing thatthese things were happening.
And as soon as I started fillingin the information, like, no,

(39:19):
this is exactly what washappening, and this is who was
where, and this is who thepeople were that were running
this and doing this, that thenpeople were like, oh my gosh,
like this is very possible.
These are criminal acts.
Like people could go to jail formany of these things.

SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Yeah.
I have a question because Idon't know the answer to this.
When when was the first time orballpark first time that you
started posting as blown forgood?

SPEAKER_03 (39:43):
Um I don't know.
It could probably be be lookedup on the interwebs.
But I wouldn't say it was.

SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
It was after we moved back to LA though?

SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
Yeah, it was I think it was after we moved back to
LA.

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
Aaron Powell But before our first son was born.

SPEAKER_03 (39:56):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (39:57):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
When we lived in Burbank.

SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:59):
And um and so I wasn't I wasn't trying to tell
Claire what was happening there.
She was there.
So I didn't even think it was abig deal to even tell Claire
because I was just like,somebody said, Oh, this happened
here, and they have they haveguys on the mountains with
machine guns.
And I'm like, hey, take it easy.
Those aren't the Scientologyguys, those are the Lockheed

(40:21):
military guys on the other sideof the mountain.
Um But then just filling inlike, hey, no, this didn't
happen, that didn't happen.
And so then I go, Yeah, uhthere's a lot of lies out there
about things, but the thingsthat are the truth are much
worse than these other sillythings that people are talking
about.

SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
So and that's always the case with anything
Scientology, it's the, you know,truth is stranger than fiction.
Um, it's like just the facts ofthe events that took place and
the specifics of what happenedand all that.
You know, that we saw that indocumentaries that we
participated in in the earlydays, like before Leo Remini

(41:02):
Scientology in the aftermath,and it would always be like
there would be some reenactmentsthat were like made dark and
da-da-da.
And it's like, no, you just needthe facts to stick to exactly
what happened, and you don'tneed uh anything more or less
than that to explain thecraziness that was the life we
lived for so many years.

SPEAKER_03 (41:24):
Yeah, and then I think when we did move back to
LA, that is when we startedmeeting up with people that we
used to work with that werethere.
And that's when we started sonce we started talking together
and sharing stories and and alsothat we would share we would
share info with each other.
Oh, I I'm doing this and I'mthis is how I'm making money and

(41:46):
I do this and I do that, andthen you go, oh, that's maybe
that's a good idea of how wecould do what we're doing just a
little differently.
And then so you start you thenyou start getting your resources
back where you can easily andfreely trade information with
other people that have been outfor years that are doing really
well.
Or also finding out about thepeople who have been out for

(42:07):
years and they're not doingwell.

SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Right.
Yeah.
And and I will say though thatwhen we moved back to LA, so
January 2005 is when we escaped,you went back to LA in May, and
then I moved we finally movedout of our apartment in Lee
Summit, Missouri by September.

SPEAKER_01 (42:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
So September is when I moved to LA as well, and we
got an apartment there.
That's when I started torealize, oh, they are keeping
tabs on us because I had gottena job when we moved back to LA,
by which time I was pregnantwith our first son.
And I'd gotten a job in anoffice, um, you know, just doing

(42:48):
manag office management typerole.
And one uh two of the peoplethat I worked with were former
Sea Org members and former, orat least I thought former
Scientologists.
But it's at a certain point,like over one lunch break, I
realized that one of the ladiesin the office was literally on

(43:13):
the phone with Office of SpecialAffairs reporting into him.
And when I kind of started toput those pieces together, I was
like, oh no, they we are notfree and clear of these people,
not one bit.

SPEAKER_03 (43:26):
Yeah.
Also I was as well.
So somehow we went to being onour own in Kansas City to then
now you're working for with andf and for some ex-people at the
from the int base, not just inthe Sea Org, but that were also
posted at the Int base.

SPEAKER_00 (43:42):
And one of them was Shelly Miscavige's sister.

SPEAKER_03 (43:45):
Yeah.
And then also now I'm workingfor some people and with people
that were also at the int base.

SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
Yeah, and so different sets of people.

SPEAKER_03 (43:54):
Yeah, and so you're going like, wait a minute.
And then once once we reallysort of figured out.
That they were by that time, butI was posting because I'm like,
they are they're messing with usand trying to keep track of us,
and but we're we weren't we wantnothing to do with them.
We're gone, we're done.
Yeah, and so you think like itwe didn't leave.

(44:17):
I didn't leave going, Oh, I'mgonna s I'm gonna leak
everything you've ever donehere.
I'm gonna try to remember everypossible thing that went down
here, and I'm gonna go to lawenforcement and go to this.
I didn't set out with thatintention.
No, it was over the course oftwo years where they they kept
poking and poking and poking andthen making it worse and then

(44:41):
and then trying to kind of setus up with like, oh, you you did
something illegal in yourbusiness.

SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
Yeah, and they were threatening to sue us already
within a year of us leaving.

SPEAKER_03 (44:51):
Yeah.
So then you go, uh No, theseguys are just this is just evil.
There's evil and they can't notit there's no way they can't be
that way.

SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:02):
And so at that point, you do have to come to
terms with and that's where Ithink it's a v it Scientology
might be a little trickier thanothers because you're trying to
figure out what the truth is,and meanwhile, they're still
messing with you, and every timeyou sort of start figuring
things out, then they just messwith you harder and try to make

(45:24):
your own.

SPEAKER_00 (45:25):
Which really triggers already so many years
of abuse and trauma and so muchthat we lost just escaping and
getting out.
Like we've already lost all ourentire family other than your
dad.
Not one single family member wasthere for us that we'd grown up
with.
You know, my mom, my siblings,my stepdad, your mom, your

(45:47):
siblings, you know.
I mean, that is that in itselfis traumatizing.
And nobody should have to evermake that decision, but we had
to to to break free.
And then on top of all that,they want to, like you said,
keep prodding and prodding andprodding.

SPEAKER_03 (46:04):
Take away your livelihood now that you've
escaped.
Now they want to attack yourlivelihood.

SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
Now they want to make you fail.

SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
Yeah, and they want to make you fail on the outside.
And so it's sort of like it'sthat's a I think that that's a
hard environment to sort ofrecover and get depro deprogram
yourself in, yeah.
Where you're just constantlyback in the in the soup again.

SPEAKER_01 (46:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:26):
So you really do have to I think you in my case,
I really just had to ignore anynoise coming from them.
Like, I don't want anything todo with it.
You can s I know you're gonnasay horrible shit.
Yeah.
So why would what am I gonna do?
I don't they want you and thisis a weird kind of thing.

(46:48):
They want you to engagecompletely.
And if you don't engage, it kindof makes everything they're
doing just if there's there's noeffect.

SPEAKER_00 (46:59):
It's like they're they're an organizational
narcissist.
You have to gray rock, you know,just go like, no, no, do not
engage, do not react, don'trespond, which is really, really
hard when at least for me, likeagain, from four years old, I
was in the C organization.
You you we've talked beforeabout how riled up I would get,

(47:21):
you know, you're getting aKamev, and you would be like,
whatever.
And I would be like, How what doyou mean, whatever?
They're gonna give me acommittee of evidence, they're
gonna rake me over the coals,I'm gonna be like sent to the
rehabilitation project force allthis multiple times, and you
were like, You'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 (47:37):
I'm like, I don't know, I don't think I will be
fine.

SPEAKER_03 (47:40):
Yeah.
But but when they're messingwith you, your reaction is what
gives them the satisfaction.
That's exactly right.
Nothing else will matter.
If somebody that works with yousees it, or if as long as you
don't hear about it, you don'tknow about it, it has no effect.
And even when you do hear aboutit, and then you talk to that

(48:01):
person and they go, dude, I sawthis crazy thing on the internet
about you, and you're and I'mlike, I know, yeah, they're not
too happy that I don't work forthem anymore.
Uh and and and literally at theend of the day, that's what it
is.
Yeah.
If I'm because I'm not there,then I need to fail.
And so you're just like, okay,whatever.

(48:22):
You know, like it sucks that youguys have to like constantly,
just day and night be trying todo this.
And it's just like, I don't evencare anymore.
Like it is what it is.
I can't stop you.
I mean, Mike Render, rest inpeace.
They still have hate sites upabout him.

(48:42):
So it doesn't matter what I doliving or dead, they're still
gonna shit all over me and talkshit on the internet.
So and also I think that they doit and that they have all these
things, it just makes everythingthat we're saying legitimate
because you say Yeah, I leftthis, I left over 20 years ago

(49:02):
and they're still hot andbothered about it.
Yeah.
And they've got a whole websiteset up about me, and then you go
look and go, they really do.

SPEAKER_00 (49:09):
Yeah, their actions say more about them than it does
about us any day of the week.
Any day of the week.

SPEAKER_01 (49:17):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
And it just proves the point of why we keep doing
what we're doing here becausethey're still getting away with
it to this day, you know?

SPEAKER_03 (49:24):
Yeah.
And then if people need to go totherapy, we have uh on the
Aftermath Foundation, the theMichael J.
Render Aftermath Foundation, um,we have a counseling group where
former members can become partof that group.

SPEAKER_01 (49:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:39):
Uh whether you speak with other former members that
you knew or you go and do like agroup therapy type of thing for
ex-Corg members orex-scientologists, it's my
opinion that talking about itand sharing your experience and
then that may help you realizewhen you when you share that
with somebody else, who knowsthat that's also you weren't in

(50:02):
the wrong.
That's really kind of all it is.
Like when you tell somebody thisand they go, that's horrible,
they should have never donethat.
That should have never happenedto you.
That's it's just horrible, it'spossibly illegal, whatever all
the circumstances are, that is apart that helps.

SPEAKER_00 (50:20):
It does.

SPEAKER_03 (50:20):
And you have to kind of pick all those out and then
you know, maybe that's gonnahelp you re resolve some things
and and regain agency on theinternet.

SPEAKER_00 (50:30):
Yeah, and then have more trust for people.

SPEAKER_03 (50:33):
A lot of a lot of ex-scientologists, a lot of
ex-Seer members not verytrusting and uh easily in
Scientology betraying your bestbuddy is a Tuesday.
So in fact, it's encouraged.
It's encouraged that ifsomebody's doing something um
that you don't like and that maybe a little bit uh out of the

(50:56):
norm, that you kind of shamethem and blacklist them to kind
of keep everybody else in norm.
And that's again where this kindof structure thing comes into.
If you're doing drugs or you'redoing any of these things that
make you a littleuncontrollable, Scientology
doesn't want that.
So if you're on a Scientologycourse or counseling, you're not

(51:16):
allowed to do drugs.
It's it's forbidden.
And although that may be a goodsort of idea and rule and
structure for many people,there's probably a lot of people
that should not do drugs.
And so then when you leaveScientology, then you go like,
well, screw it.
I can do whatever I want now.
And then it kind of goessideways, and you go, well,

(51:36):
like, yeah, just becauseScientology says not to do it
doesn't mean you should do it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (51:42):
If you leave.
So that's where people, that'sthat people, that's uh some of
the resolving that people needto do is they gotta figure that
out.

SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Yeah, there's there's definitely work to be
done.
And um, like you said, supportgroup, reading books,
researching, making choices foryourself, and and hopefully just
holding space to work throughthat on your own terms is
really, really important.
Like for me, you you went on theinternet.
It took me a long time to go onthe internet, but I did go and

(52:14):
order books like BarefaceMessiah by Russell Miller, um
Madman or Messiah by BentCardin, were two of the first
books that I got, and even thenI was like, ooh, should I read
them?
I'm like, yeah, I can read them.
I you know, I'm gonna I can readwhatever I want, and that's my

(52:34):
comfort space because I can takewhat I want and discard what I
don't agree with.

SPEAKER_03 (52:39):
So I think the other good thing about that is because
if you're reading a book aboutsomebody that was in Scientology
or uh somebody was in the C orgat the international
headquarters or whatever, you'regonna see things and you're
gonna read things in there thatif you were in Scientology for
any amount of years or time, aregonna want you always wondered

(53:02):
about that thing, and you neverknew.
And there's certain things inScientology where they're not
really allowed to share a lot ofdirt on what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 (53:10):
Nope.

SPEAKER_03 (53:11):
So unless it's good for Scientology, you're really
not gonna hear about it fromother Scientologists.
Yeah.
But you'll notice things thatare off and you'll wonder, hey,
I wonder what happened to thatperson, or I wonder what
happened with this, or you know,there was a a woman who was the
ED of Hamburg in Germany, andshe won the birthday game, you

(53:32):
know, seven years in a row, andthen she disappeared off the
face of the planet, and thenthey never won the birthday game
ever again.

SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Which by the way, I wasn't here when you were doing
the chat with Matt, but I I waslike, Vipka, she she went
straight into the rehabilitationproject for us.

SPEAKER_03 (53:46):
Yes.
So but but but when you seethings like that and you're in
Germany, this is not an Americanthing, this is something that
happened in Germany.

SPEAKER_02 (53:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (53:55):
I mean, I I think m any German Scientologist that
was around during that time, ifthey found out that this woman
who had won the birthday gamefor all these years in a row and
was a rock star, highly trainedshe was like the yeah, for sure.
Zipka Hansen.

SPEAKER_00 (54:11):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (54:11):
She was the ED of the Hamburg Org, and she was a
rock star in Scientology.
And then one day she was on theRPF at the international
headquarters.

SPEAKER_01 (54:22):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (54:22):
And the story of how that is, I think it it's in my
book.
I think I tell a lot of wholethings.
Pretty sharp.
Anyway, but either way, um,there's hundreds and hundreds of
things like that that happenedin Scientology.
And when you read one of thesebooks from somebody, they talk
about a lot of these things.
You'll find out of what happenedor you know, these mysteries

(54:42):
that get solved.
So are we ready to uh do somequestions?
Yeah, I think I think that was agood decent direction or kind of
suggestion.
We're not mental health experts,but we were in a crazy cult for
all of our lives until our early30s and have now been out for a

(55:03):
few minutes.

SPEAKER_00 (55:04):
Yes, yes, for sure.
Absolutely.
All right, let's do somequestions.
You ready?
Yep, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 (55:10):
Okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 (55:11):
Okay, Love Food Kitchen.
You'd never think thisfresh-faced youngster would end
up as the legendary Beard forGood.

SPEAKER_03 (55:18):
Not anymore.
Oh, you know, we've got a Frenchdocumentary.
We should put a link in thedescription.

SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Yes, coming out tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 (55:23):
Yeah, we we did a documentary um for this French
media team, and uh it's finallycoming out, and you will see the
return of Beard for Good if youwatch it.
Um so we'll put a link in there.
I think when they shot it, I waslike I was like one quarter
mountain man by that time.
I had a good nice big Santabeard on.

SPEAKER_00 (55:44):
Yes, you did.
You sure did.
But yeah, there will be, I knowTony Ortega's in that.
You, you and I, of course,apostate Alex, and I'm sure
there'll be many other people.

SPEAKER_03 (55:53):
You didn't read the last part of this comment.

SPEAKER_00 (55:55):
The ginger looks three days older than when that
was this was taken.
Oh, thank you, Love FreeKitchen.
The ginger feels much older thanwhen that was taken, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 (56:05):
The picture in in our um in the thumbnail.
In the thumbnail.

SPEAKER_00 (56:15):
Or maybe even ninety-five.

SPEAKER_03 (56:17):
Yeah, maybe.
I want to say, yeah.
Oh yeah, you're right, it wasninety-five because you weren't
I don't think you were in RTCwhen that picture was taken.
Or just in.

SPEAKER_00 (56:25):
Yeah, so then it was ninety-four, actually.
Anyway.
I'll have to look.
Yeah, it was right around thattime.
But either way, we'd beenmarried.

SPEAKER_03 (56:32):
You look exactly the same, and it looks like my son
is with you in the picture.

SPEAKER_00 (56:37):
You mean our son?

SPEAKER_03 (56:38):
Well, uh somebody who was related to me.
No, no, no.
Not me.
Not me.
I looked like I ate that guy.

SPEAKER_00 (56:46):
Oh, goodness me.

SPEAKER_03 (56:47):
Okay.
We got a oh, we got some superchats too.

SPEAKER_00 (56:49):
Oh, nice.
Angel Cat, thank you for beinginspirational to all whose lives
you touch.
Thank you so much.
We appreciate it.
And um, you know, we're justhere to keep doing this work and
helping people however we can.

SPEAKER_03 (57:02):
If one ex-scientologist finds this
helpful, it'll be worth the hourthat we spend doing it.

SPEAKER_00 (57:08):
Yep.
Jason, hi, did you see myinterview with John Kiriakau?
I saw the link.
I haven't had a chance to watchit yet.
Very busy work week, but I willwatch.
Thank you for sharing that.
Uh Nalsa, greetings fromAnchorage, Alaska.
Nice.
We've been there.
Beautiful.
Uh Ryan M, hello fromMississauga, Ontario.

SPEAKER_03 (57:33):
Oh, burned.

SPEAKER_00 (57:35):
Burned.

SPEAKER_03 (57:36):
Babe, you can't have your reading.
Good morning from Newcastle,Australia.

SPEAKER_00 (57:41):
Oh, awesome.
Hi, Todd.
Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 (57:44):
I can't believe.

SPEAKER_00 (57:45):
I know.
Carla, hi from England.
Happy Valentine's.
Thank you.
Uh Olga from Northwest Oregon.
Nice.

SPEAKER_03 (57:56):
Happy love day.

SPEAKER_00 (57:57):
Patrina, happy love day.
Happy heart day.
Yay.
There you go.
We did that one.
Olga from Northwest Oregon.
Tracy, howdy from Wyoming.
Awesome.
Thanks for being here.
Tracy.
Sherry, hello everyone.
Coming in from Moorhead,Minnesota.
Nice.
Poodleboone from New York City.

(58:18):
Awesome.
Good to see you.
Catherine Olson.
I love how Claire looks almostexactly the same.
No, I've got I appreciate it.
Very kind of you, but yes, I cantell the difference.
Angela, love depeche mode, bornin 1973.
Boom.
There you go.

SPEAKER_03 (58:35):
Go for the mode.
Yes.
That's funny that we did get allthose things back and they had
all that depeche mode stuff onthere.

SPEAKER_00 (58:42):
Yeah, exactly.
I love that Chelsea Graves hadinventory all your all your
Depeche Mode albums.
Mart Knottman, Re Vibka Hansen,Miscavige told her that she had
the choice, quote unquote, of Ajoining the Sea Org and going
straight to the RehabilitationProject Force, or B getting
declared.
Yeah, yeah.
That's exactly right.
I know.

SPEAKER_03 (59:00):
That's the choice you get.
You're either going to go to therehabilitation project force at
the international headquarters,or you're going to be declared
an SP and shamed in front of allthe people that thought you were
a rock star.

SPEAKER_00 (59:09):
Yeah.
Damned if you do, damned if youdon't.

SPEAKER_03 (59:12):
Yeah.
Oh, that's that's a great point,too.
She was an OTA.
Aaron Powell, she was.
So she had done all there was todo in Scientology.

SPEAKER_00 (59:20):
And I think I want to say she was like a classics
auditor or something like that.
Like she was, like you said, shewas a rock star by Scientology
standards.
She'd been at up on the stagemultiple times receiving awards
and everything else and toutedas like, oh, the Hamburg is
doing amazing.

SPEAKER_03 (59:38):
And if you guys don't know the the punchline,
they were just making it all up.
The staff in the Hamburgorganization were just reporting
that they were doing more thanthey were doing.

SPEAKER_00 (59:50):
Allegedly.
That's the story.
Who even knows what the actualstory is?

SPEAKER_03 (59:55):
Aaron Powell Well, supposedly they had two sets of
books.
So they were doing one thingover here and another thing over
here.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:02):
Anyway, but regardless of all that, I'm sure
there's more to that story thanMeets CI, and I'm sure there's
anyway, whatever.
Yeah, you get my point.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:09):
Oh, look, here's well, Catherine knows the same
short story we were.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:13):
Hamberg was sending a different set of their org
statistics to management so theywould get left alone.
Right, exactly.
That's that's what we were told.
But again, you know, like likeyou were saying, every time we
compared notes with somebody,we'd find out a different story.
So hopefully one day Vipka getsout and we can talk to her and
find out what actually happened.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:34):
Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:35):
Yeah.
Um slip shot saying hi fromDetroit.
Nice.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:40):
I think that's all the ones I read out, all the
shout-outs.
If I if I didn't, I'm sorry,guys.
There's a lot of comments inhere.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:46):
It's all good.
So now we can do a fewquestions.
Yeah, yeah.
And then everyone can get backto their Valentine's Day
celebration.
We're going for a nice dinner.
So yay.
That'll be fun.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:57):
I'm um oh, here we go.
Question for Claire.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:59):
All right, question for Claire.
How were the folders of theReligious Technology Center
Reports Officer organized bynames of individuals?
How many folders were there?
Did RTC have hard copy foldersas well as digital ones?
So yes, they did have um hardcopy folders, but uh during the

(01:01:19):
late 90s to early 2000s, theywere switching more and more to
an online database.
So everything would get scannedin and they would be filed cross
cross-referenced, so byindividual and by associated
organization and everythingelse.
And at the same during that sametime period, they were working

(01:01:40):
on scanning in all personnelfolders, all ethics folders, um
and granting access for so thatReligio Religious Technology
Center could have access to allof those things.
So it was getting to where youwould just type in somebody's
name into the database, the RTCdata files database that was,

(01:02:04):
you know, digital and be able tolook up reports and everything
else.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:08):
Yeah, you could look up somebody in the data it was
called the data files.
You could look up somebody onthe data files, and if there was
a report on them anywhere inScientology, it would show up.
Everything is scanned, and evenall the sessions are recorded
and videoed with video andaudio.
Yep.
And that's all digitized.
Every single counseling session.

(01:02:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:29):
And they were also working on documenting who like
Billy Bob.
Who is Billy Bob connected to?
Who has he ever had ininteractions with his entire
life?
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:41):
Yeah, they have it, it's a special feature, and it's
it's called the a connectionslist.
And they just type in Billy Boband then they just say who is
connected with Billy Bob, and itjust triangulates all of Billy
Bob's reports and anyone who'smentioned in any of them, or who
are the people that wrotereports on Billy Bob, and then

(01:03:02):
it shows all their connections.
We actually showed it in the spyfiles.
I'll try to find the figure outwhich episode it was.
But uh when O.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:10):
There was a the You showed that chart of
connections, and oh, we cut thisconnection, we cut this
connection, we're cut this.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:17):
But they they the the thing the evil that they do
is very proceduralized.
It's very they have uh they haveuh procedures and processes for
everything evil that they do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:29):
They have documented their systemic abuse, systemic
organizational abuse, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:34):
It is kind of wild.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:35):
There was another question, and I and I was Becky
Big Brother fan says, shout out,Billy Bob 123.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:42):
All right, question.
Did you think it was easierbefore getting used to the
outside world because you weretogether?
I do think so, yeah.
I mean, I I never imagined thatindependently that I would be
able to survive that transition,having lost my entire family and
everything else.

(01:04:03):
So certainly knowing that Markwas there, I've I've described
it before, the way you mightfeel if you're told, oh, go
ahead and jump off that cliffand I promise there's there's a
safety net waiting for you.
That's what it felt like to mein that moment of escaping.
Like I knew you were there andthat somehow everything would
work out.
But the only reason I had beliefin that it would work out is

(01:04:27):
because I knew you were there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's easier to do all this withanother person, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:32):
Yeah.
Angela, question, Claire andMark.
Where do you see yourselves 10years from now?
Great question.
Well, my book will finally beout.
Yay!

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:42):
We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:43):
I have six chapters left and it's coming along
great.
And uh sooner than later, I willum update my website with the
book cover and everything else.
So making good progress.
And um, but ten years from now,so our kids will all be grown
and out.
Maybe out of the house.

(01:05:03):
Out of the house, yeah.
Um what did you think I meant?

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:07):
Uh you just said when they get out.
I was like, where are they?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:12):
Well, you know, they'll be all grown up, I
should say.
And uh our work as parents willtransition to a different phase
of life.
That'll be amazing.
Um Yeah, and I I think we'rejust continuing to work on the
We'll be busy.
Yeah, we'll we're allowed to beable to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:31):
We literally have been doing a lot of the same
stuff for many, many years.
We kind of have a groove in asystem we're doing, and we do
our thing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:39):
You started your business in 2006, I started mine
in 2008.
And both have just we've workedreally, really hard to just you
know, build that up.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:52):
Um so hopefully, I would say ten years from now, I
would hope for a little less allthe time.
On and more and more just takingtime to enjoy life.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:03):
I'm already there.
I'm already s I'm alreadyswitching to that gear right
now.
You and me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:08):
Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:09):
I've done a lot.
I can get up to doing doingnothing and feel totally fine
about it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:13):
Yep.
There you go.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:14):
Um here's a good one.

unknown (01:06:16):
Question.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:17):
Oh no, that was not the one I just showed.
That was another good one.
Oh, it's for Mark.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:21):
Okay.
Mark Fisher and Janice GillamGrady question.
Do your boys know your storiesor have any interest in your
history?
Yes, they know our stories.
Um our oldest son, Mark's talkedabout, read blown for good for
his uh senior year Englishclass, um, which was it's kind
of crazy.
Yeah, it is crazy.

(01:06:41):
And our son told us it it reallyhelped him to understand a lot
and um which was moving and youknow.
And yeah, I would say that we'vealways, you know, been uh
completely honest with our kidsabout our background in an age
age appropriate way.
So they're very, very familiarwith um our stories in that

(01:07:02):
respect.
So yeah, there you go.
That's my answer.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:06):
Sounds good, babe.
You did great.
Um I don't know if I showed allthese or if there was any more
questions.
I hope I got to everything,guys.
We uh if I missed your question,I'm sorry.
Uh there's literally hundredsand hundreds of comments in
here, and all the ones that arestarred, I think I showed.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:24):
Okay.
Awesome.
Well, thank you to everyonejoining us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:27):
And um Happy Valentine's Happy Valentine's
Day.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:30):
I will say that we have some interesting new
content coming up.
Uh rest in peace, Mike.
I was helping Christy kind ofsort through a lot of stuff.
So I have some reallyinteresting things that we'll be
talking about as a result ofthat.
Um including whatever.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:47):
There's documents, there's all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:50):
Crazy things coming.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:51):
So may have not been talked about.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:54):
Yes, exactly.
Definitely a lot of things thathaven't been talked about, some
things I'd never even seenbefore.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:00):
So um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:01):
Kind of wild stuff that was that you might not
think is really that big of adeal, but kind of the more we
find out that anything that wasgoing on sort of had it could be
a big deal to a whole bunch ofdifferent people that we don't
even know about.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:15):
So exactly.
So yeah, we're gonna keep onkeeping on exposing Scientology
abuses.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:21):
We got the fundraiser coming up, March
11th.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:24):
March 11th in Denver, uh, Comedy Works South.
Uh, if you're local to Colorado,we hope you will join us.
We're gonna have a ton ofamazing, great people there.
We'll have an awesome onlinesilent auction, and we're very,
very excited.
This is our first in-person,really truly in-person organized
event.

(01:08:45):
Um, so yeah, we appreciateeveryone who's already gotten
tickets.
It's not too late to get yours.
Like I said, it will beWednesday, March 11th, um in at
Comedy Works South.
So there is a link on theAftermath Foundation website.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:00):
Our show's Saturday now.
They kind of are what it is,they're usually Saturday or
Sunday, depending on ourschedule.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:06):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:07):
You have something happening tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:09):
Mark was gone last Sunday.
So we did it Saturday.
So sorry.
We tried to, we will try to getback on a regular, regularly
scheduled programming, but wefigured at least it's better to
bring you something once a week,whether it's Saturday or Sunday.
Hopefully you'll bear with us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:24):
You can watch it on the replay if you can't watch it
live.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:27):
There you go.
It's fine by us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:29):
Anyway, thank you guys.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks everybody who uh watchedtill the very end, and we will
see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:36):
Adios, bye bye.
Tell next time, guys.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:58):
You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for
Good Behind the Iron Curtain ofScientology, in hardback,
Kindle, and Audible versions aswell.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on

(01:10:19):
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.