How Scientology’s “Rehabilitation Project Force” Breaks People And Why We Fought Back

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_06 (00:25):
Hey guys, welcome back to the channel.
Welcome to another episode ofBlown for Good Scientology
Exposed.
Um, today, not only am I joinedby my lovely wife, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
Hey, hey, hey, everybody.
Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_06 (00:39):
But um we have special guests.
We did a episode a few weeks agowith Matt Pesch on the RPF,
where we read through the L.
Ron Hubbard approved policies onthe RPF, and then um, and then
we went through a bunch of thatwith Matt, and he told us a few
stories.
But today we have Matt and Amy.

(01:03):
Oh, look, there we go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
Yay, welcome, Matt and Amy.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07):
Yes.
Special guests.
And the reason that I wanted tohave all of you guys on is
because I myself was never onthe RPF.
But Claire was on the kids' RPF,and she was on the RPF when her
mom, or she was a little kid, alittle child when her mom was on
the RPF, and both Matt and Amyhave been to the RPF.

(01:29):
And I I don't mind saying that Ithink Amy is the record holder
amongst us of how many timesthey were on the RPF.
How many times were you on theRPF, Amy?

SPEAKER_03 (01:39):
I was on the RPF four times.

SPEAKER_06 (01:41):
Holy moly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
About my career.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:46):
Before we get any before we get any further, for
somebody who hasn't seen thatfirst episode that we did, the
RPF is called the RehabilitationProject Force.
And it is Scientology's uh it'ssort of like a prison camp or a
re-education camp for Sea Orgmembers.
Those are the people that signedthe billion-year contracts.

(02:09):
And um and the RPF beingassigned to it could last one or
two years, and I have known of aperson that was on it for over
10 years.

SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
So that's a big call.

SPEAKER_06 (02:21):
And we and Which was my uncle.

SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yeah.
Applied to my uncle, FrancoSullivan was on the
rehabilitation project force for10 years in the UK.

SPEAKER_06 (02:31):
So that's sort of the groundwork for it.
If you haven't seen the theepisode that Matt and I did, you
should probably watch thatbecause that literally covers,
you know, fast track through it.
You can't talk to anybody unlessspoken to.
You got to run everywhere.
You're s segregated from therest of the crew.
You're only allowed to be withthe RPF crew.
Um, you get the leftovers ofwhat was made for the main crew

(02:55):
and whatever's food-wise,whatever's left over from those
people, that's what you the RPFgets.
Um, did I leave anything out,Amy?

SPEAKER_03 (03:05):
Well, it's a whole world.
It's a whole world.
There's so many details to it,you know.
But um, I guess we'll just takeit, you know, one step at a
time.
But um, yeah, so I was on theRPF four times, and it the first
time I was 16 years old.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, and getting there is astory in itself.
Why did that happen at age 16,you know, and um so many times

(03:30):
to the RPS RPF too, which I havea story connected with every one
of those times.
But when you're in the RPF,you're the lowest of the low.
But within the RPF, you have anRPF where you get busted even
further and you're segregatedeven from the RPFs.
You can't eat with anybody, youcan't talk with anybody.
It's a mandatory of um two weeksif they approve you to get off

(03:54):
of there.

SPEAKER_06 (03:54):
And um, if it's a minimum you're in there for two
weeks?
Oh, so you can't just getassigned and come out the next
day if you do something better.

SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
No, if you're assigned, you're in there two
weeks minimum.

SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
I wouldn't even start the the uh process to come
back out until I had the record.
I said, I'm not even startingthis until I'm in here for 26
days.

SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
So my way it was just like F you, man.

SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
So I have a question.
So if you're assigned to theRPF's RPF, how how are you
differentiated it?
Like, do you have to wearsomething different?
Like, how how is how does thatwork mechanically in terms of
it's all the same rules exceptfor that they're lower than
that?

SPEAKER_06 (04:37):
So they get the leftovers of the RPF.

SPEAKER_02 (04:41):
Yeah, no, I'm clear on that.
I'm just curious, like, do youhave to wear a different do you
have to wear anything different?
Like, how do you know who's onthe RPF's RPF?

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
You don't even tell you.

SPEAKER_06 (04:58):
Oh, because you're seclude you're segregated from
the RPF when you're on the RPF'sRPF.

SPEAKER_03 (05:04):
And you're under guard, so you're not supposed to
even cross paths with any otherperson.

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
You don't sleep in the same place, you don't eat in
the same place, you don't workin the same place, you are like
you know, gone.
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
One of my RPS RPF experiences with um me and two
other people, and um out atHappy Valley, which is at the
international headquarterslocation of Hammett, California,
they wouldn't take their trashto the dump.
Instead, they made it a mountainout of it on that property, a

(05:41):
gigantic mountain of trash thatfestered in the desert sun for
why wouldn't why wouldn't theyjust burn it?

SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
It was jelly trash, right?

SPEAKER_03 (05:52):
Probably because they would set the entire
mountain on fire.
That's true.

SPEAKER_04 (05:55):
Good point.
That hasn't happened before.

SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
But so I was assigned with these two other
people to get all that stufftaken to the dump.
And so we were standing on themountain of maggots, slinging
broken trash bags of garbagethat have been festering there
for I don't know how long intothis uh truck.

(06:23):
And then we would take it to thedump and take it, you know, and
dump it there and come back.
And I don't know how many tripswe had to make, but anyway, one
of the guys there was just ajoker, and he was flinging these
garbage bags with this juicejust going all over me.
And I thought, if this isn't thelowest that I could ever be, I

(06:43):
am standing on a mountain ofmaggots with juice wearing my
face.
You know, I mean, and what isthis to prove?
Like, you know, because you'rejust terrible.
And I mean, I was assigned someof the reasons why I was
assigned, okay.
I was 16 years old.

(07:04):
Yeah, I did.
I I had sex with my husbandbefore we got married, and
that's why that's why you wentto the RPG.
Yes, we did.
Well, let this story.

SPEAKER_07 (07:18):
Wow, the truth comes out.

SPEAKER_06 (07:21):
Unbelievable.
Hey, I'm not gonna say anythingdirectly, but Claire and I may
have messed around a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
We didn't go all the way though.
I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
I didn't go all the way.
Okay, so so I'm 16 years old.
And the my first husband was 10years older than me.
He actually should have beenarrested, is what should have
happened.
But completely, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (07:49):
But instead of he was 26 and you were 16.

SPEAKER_03 (07:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (07:53):
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
Yeah, at the Flagland base and here in
Clearwater.
And um, so what happened was Igot put into a confessional, and
it's the first time I've evertalked about sex, and it's with
some older guy, and I'm havingto like confess, and he's
pulling like every detail youcould imagine.

SPEAKER_07 (08:11):
I is there any more to that?

SPEAKER_03 (08:15):
How many times and which way?
And oh my god.
And I can barely breathe talkingabout this stuff.
It was my first time.
I'm 16 years old.

SPEAKER_06 (08:23):
Oh my god, can you imagine it's your first time,
and then you get interrogatedabout it by some old geezer.

SPEAKER_07 (08:30):
By some old guy that you don't know, he doesn't know.

SPEAKER_03 (08:32):
I've never met.
Yeah.
But at the end of thisconfessional that I did with
him, um, he said these words,which is called the power to
forgive in Scientology that youdo after confessionals.
It says, by the power investedin me, any overts, which is a
non-survival act and withholds,you have fully and truthfully
told me, are forgiven byScientologists.

(08:55):
So he told that to me, and Ifelt the biggest relief ever
thinking, wow, what a greatchurch I'm re I'm involved in,
because you can confesssomething that's super hard for
you, but you're forgiven, andeverything like that.
I walked out of that room andthere were security guards there
waiting for me to drag me to theRPF.

SPEAKER_04 (09:13):
That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
I didn't even go get my bags, nothing.
I went straight to the RPF andthey stuck me in a paint shed,
and that's where I lived, is ina paint shed at the Blackland
base.
So much for that forgiveness,right?
I know.
I felt so betrayed, but anyway,oh my god.
That was my first time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (09:33):
Oh my gosh.
The thing I was trying to findout about and ask about myself
was so you in the Sea Org, youthere's a thing called
Liberties, and every other week,um technically a C org member is
uh told that it's a possibilitythat they could get a day off on

(09:56):
a Sunday.
If your statistics were up andeverything and you wrote a
proposal that has to getapproved by five or six people,
including the commanding officerof your organization, then you'd
be be allowed to take Sundaymorning when we had cleaning, we
had cleaning until like about uhnoon, which then you had to go
to lunch.
Um that's where you would beable to do your laundry and

(10:17):
clean your room.
You get about three hours to dothat every week.
But on that same day, you'd getto take from noon to the end of
the day off.
Now at the Int Base, um prettypast pretty much past 1993,
there weren't people taking thedays off.
In the RPF, when do you don't doyou get days off in the RPF?

(10:40):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (10:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (10:44):
Only unless it's a specific like uh reward or like
a thing, you they they might beum set to be told that they
would get a day off, but then alot of times it gets re-renegged
and they they don't get itanyway.

SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
But I think I was in the Seahawks, I only know if it
happened one time, and that wasI had worked out this thing with
this mission that if the RPFwent, you know, off all the
study and stuff like that.
This was in Los Angeles, gettingready for middle management to
move over.
If we pulled it off in time, wewould get Christmas Day off.

SPEAKER_06 (11:17):
You were going to renovate a building, renovate a
place for somebody to move into.
The second floor of the uh mainbuilding at the complex.
So he's he's talking about thatbig blue building that's in
Hollywood that has that bigScientology sign on the way.
The uh the management that wasbelow the int base in Los
Angeles, they used to be locatedat that building.

SPEAKER_04 (11:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (11:40):
Okay, so you guys were gonna renovate a bunch of
offices for them.
Whole floor.
And they weren't gonna go to theRPF, wasn't gonna go to study or
do any counseling orinterrogations, just work, work,
work all day, every day.
If you got that done, then youmade a deal with the executives
over the RPF that they would beable to get Christmas Day off.

(12:01):
Right.
Wow.
That's so I guess so that but ifyou weren't if there wasn't some
kind of special deal you weremaking, the RPF didn't even get
Christmas off.
Oh, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
No days off.
You're not allowed any days off,no matter how many years you're
in there.
And and it was really five yearswas probably an average of how
long of how many between daysthat you weren't working.
No, five, five years on the RPF,and you don't get any days off.

SPEAKER_06 (12:29):
That's what I'm saying.
You never you're just workingevery single day Christmas, New
Year's, birthday, every uhEaster, every day, President's
Day, and then President's Day.

SPEAKER_03 (12:46):
There was this one time telling her happening.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Well, what happened was we're all excited, we're
gonna get Christmas Day off.
And uh the staff were supposedto get part of that day off too.
Normal staff.
Did you guys do finish theoffices?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We finished it all on time.
We were like all happy, we gotChristmas Day off.
This is like amazing.
And uh the regular staff, we'resupposed to get at least the

(13:09):
morning off and stuff with thefamilies at that time.
That got canceled because theirstatistics in pack in Los
Angeles were so bad they saidthere's no Christmas even for
the regular staff.
So once they had their Christmascanceled, somebody got the
bright idea that well, the RPFcan't take Christmas off when
the regular staff have no timeoff.
Even though you guys had a youguys had special deals going

(13:32):
here.
Yeah, we had a special deal.
So they had somebody they gotsomebody coming down the street
to let us know that we're gonnanot have Christmas Day off after
this.
And you caught wind of this.
Yes.
And within seconds, all 60 RPFswere in the wind.
We were running down the streetsin Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_06 (13:52):
That's true.
That's true.
If in Scientology you getapproved to have liberties, like
somebody says it's approved, youcan have your liberty, but then
somebody else renegs it, orthere's an announcement that
happens at midnight.
Uh you your proposal getsapproved at 11 p.m.
on Saturday night, and then youget the approved thing saying,

(14:14):
Yes, it was approved.
As long as no one is a lot isable to tell you that it was now
reneged, you're good.

SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
You just have you can't claim blissful ignorance.

SPEAKER_06 (14:26):
Yeah, you just can't have the knowledge that it got
unapproved, and then you got totake your whole day off.
So that's what you guys did.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Did it go watch movies and restaurants and all
that stuff that comes out on theschedule?

SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
But it but that was so rare.
It was so rare.

SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
I mean that the visual of 60 RPFers running
running away from the complex isamazing.

SPEAKER_07 (14:53):
Running to get to Hollywood Boulevard so they can
watch some movies.

SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
Run into Denny's quick.

SPEAKER_06 (14:58):
Or the Vogue.
There was a theater actually notnot too far from uh not the
Vogue.
It wasn't the Vogue.
I can't remember what it wascalled, like the Mar Vista.
It's where they filmed pulp ficuh pulp fiction, the very start
uh not pulp fiction, anotherTarantino movie.
Uh True Romance.
The beginning of true romance isat a theater that's right near
the Hollywood complex ofScientology, and I want to say

(15:21):
it's called the Vista.
And it's right there, it's likemaybe 10 blocks away.
And um, and we used to go, if wewere sneaking out and doing
something, we go we jam over tothe Vista to do stuff.
I know a guy.

SPEAKER_03 (15:36):
You never got to jam out anywhere.

SPEAKER_06 (15:38):
It seems like my best friend, I don't even
remember if I put this in my mybook, but my best friend Jesse,
he did this pilot course in LosAngeles called The Key to Life.
Um, and he it was a pilot at thethis place called the New World
Corps, which is a seaorganization that uh that does
the upper levels of Scientology.

(15:59):
Anyway, they he was doing apilot, and one of the things you
do is you go for walks.
If that's on Key to Life, yeah.
Yeah, you go for walks to likeexteriorize and to like see
everything around you, connectwith the nature.
I don't know what the purpose ofit is, but Yeah, that's that's
the purpose.
They would go on walks, him andhis twin, and they would go to

(16:20):
the vista, watch a movie, andthen walk back.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
Oh wow, that's new.

SPEAKER_06 (16:25):
Yeah, so they've been gone for two hours.

SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
I haven't heard that one before.

SPEAKER_06 (16:28):
They just walk back in, and and the the supervisor
can't say anything becauseyou're supposed to go on the
walk.
Yeah, you're supposed to go doit.
You're just not supposed to walkto the movies, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (16:39):
Nor are you supposed to sit down for two hours while
taking a walk.

SPEAKER_06 (16:43):
Okay, so Amy, um, so you were what what were the
locations and the times that youwere on the RPF?

SPEAKER_03 (16:51):
Okay, so the first time was um I was 16 years old,
and that was at the FlaglandBase.
Okay, so in Florida.
Almost a year in Florida.
Okay, and then when I was 19 to21, I first went to the pack
RPF, and that was because Iwrote something in my L.
Ron Hubbard Amnesty that saidyou're supposed to forgive

(17:13):
everything that was divulged inyour amnesty.
Instead, it was a trap.
And I had, yes, and so not only.

SPEAKER_05 (17:22):
And that was in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_03 (17:23):
That was in Los Angeles.
Jan Adair from the Int base camedown and signed me straight to
the RPF's RPF.
I didn't want to just go to theRPF.

SPEAKER_06 (17:31):
Was she Jane Adair Swanson at the time?

SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (17:34):
Okay, so Jana Dare from Int, from the international
headquarters, went to LosAngeles and said, You're going
to the RPF's RPF right off thebat.

SPEAKER_04 (17:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (17:47):
Because of something that you wrote in Scientology,
they've had this maybe three orfour times in the history of
Scientology.
When something really bighappens, they tell everybody,
listen, we want to make we wantto clean the slate with
everybody.
There's sorry, the guys, there'sa cat uh just walked right under
Claire's uh station here.

(18:08):
Um they say um they say we wantto clean the slate with
everybody, and they get everysingle person in Scientology
that they can to write upanything bad that they did that
they probably would have gottentrouble for in Scientology, and
they call it an amnesty.
And they basically say, onceyou've admitted to all these

(18:29):
things, then the slate is clean.
And if somebody finds out youdid this later on, you already
said it in your amnesty, soyou're fine.

SPEAKER_03 (18:37):
Yeah.
It clears your entire ethicsfile.
It's supposed to like you'resupposed to just burn your
ethics file because it's all soyou start from zero.

SPEAKER_06 (18:44):
It's like basically starting from zero.
You have no reports in your fileand you have no bad marks
against you.

SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaking of which, the lastamnesty that I know that they
did was um in 1993 for the IASevent when they announced
religious recognition forScientology.

SPEAKER_06 (19:04):
Yeah, I I want I want Amy to finish telling her
story because I have an amnestystory, which I would love to
tell you guys.

SPEAKER_03 (19:12):
Yeah, they're all traps, they're traps, you know.
And yeah, we weren't evenallowed to utilize this 1993
one.
It was for other people.
Okay, but anyway, so I'm on thepack RPF, you know, from my
amnesty, RPF's RPF from myamnesty.
I have lots of stories aboutthat, but I'll then then what

(19:32):
happened was um Al Ron Hubbardwas gonna come back to the int
base.
And so the RPF in pack, thosewho were qualified, like me,
went up to the LA to the intbase.
Yeah, I went from LA's the RPF.

SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
So you you were promoted to the int base via the
RPF.
The RPF.
Wow.
That's so crazy.

SPEAKER_06 (19:58):
That is how you know that's how you know the
qualifications thing when likeno one was ever qualified to
come up.
You know, for years and years,they could never get any new
people to the base because theydidn't qualify.
In the 80s and the 90s, theywere jamming people up there
from the RPF.
The RPF's RPF.

(20:19):
And so, how long?
So, how long were you on the RPNat that stint?

SPEAKER_03 (20:23):
Two years, full-time decks.
We didn't do any enhancement, wejust worked around the clock
building L.
Ron Hubbard's home.

SPEAKER_06 (20:30):
For two years you built BV?

SPEAKER_03 (20:32):
Two years.

SPEAKER_06 (20:32):
The old BV, the old one.

SPEAKER_03 (20:35):
Two straight years.
We did nothing.
I didn't sleep.
I mean, we slept on the oncarpet rolls in the garage.
I mean, I've got stories anyway.
Um, that was super abusive.
And then I got a board of reviewthat found my RPF assignment was
injust.
After two years, and it wascanceled, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (20:55):
And then you and then you were posted at the base
after that?

SPEAKER_03 (20:58):
Yeah, yeah.
But while I was on there, onetime after 500 nights up,
Wendell gave me a back rub at aproduction meeting, and David
Miscavige found out about that.
So he and I were both assignedto the RPS RPF for a backdated
and it was for like one second,it wasn't even a good one.

SPEAKER_06 (21:18):
Do you know how many times he told us about that in
the when we were in meetingswith him after that?
It was like it would be.

SPEAKER_03 (21:25):
No, that was 1984.
I know.

SPEAKER_06 (21:28):
I'm saying when we were at the base in meetings,
whenever Wendell was always inthese meetings, says he was
either a CO gold or in Financedor some high up muckety muck.
And whenever Dave would saythings about him, he goes, Oh,
you you need a back rub?
Or you know, he would say thingslike Yes, right?

(21:49):
Am I not lying, Claire?
Yeah, no, I remember he wouldand he and it was always if
somebody admitted to something,it didn't matter when it was in
their C or career.
If David Miscavige knew aboutit, he would never miss an
opportunity to just air it outto everybody in the room.

SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
Yeah, his mind is like literally a running black
book of people who have marks.

SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
Yeah, seriously.
And so the the job that he thatDavid Miscavige assigned to me
and Wendell, I mean, you wouldthink that they'd separate us if
he thought that it was somethingwas going on or whatever, but
no, Wendell and I were assignedto the leech field out behind
the tavern where the septic tankwas completely overflowed and we
were supposed to drain it byhand and white globe the septic

(22:36):
tank.

SPEAKER_07 (22:36):
That's oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
And this was in '84.
Yeah.
So so so years later, when hehad all management executives
clearing out the aeration field,it was not the first time he'd
come up with that idea as apunishment, in other words.
I didn't realize that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (22:55):
I thought 16 years before that he was doing that.

SPEAKER_02 (22:58):
Wow.

SPEAKER_06 (23:00):
Okay, so then what was the next time?
So that's that's two times.

SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
So so far we're at three years, three years running
total.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
Um, so then um then ages 24 and 25 for a year and a
half.
Uh at the base, I was assignedto the RPF for what's called on
the e-meter, a rock slam, whichis a uh it's an e-meter read
that's erratic and it's supposedto mean that you have evil

(23:32):
purposes.
And um, so I was assigned as athat I was supposedly thinking
about L.
Ron Hubbard while my needle wasbeing erratic.
So they sent me straight to theRPS RPF.
And so I went to the RPF again.

SPEAKER_06 (23:49):
It does say that we met when Matt and I read through
the issue, one of the thingsthat you can be assigned to the
RPF for is if you're on the theScientology e-meter, this kind
of measuring device they have,which is a lot.
I mean, obviously it's crazy.
If the needle dances aroundwildly, then you get to go to
the RPF's RPF.

SPEAKER_03 (24:09):
Yeah, and it could be anything.
I mean, it could be anything, itcould be the meters wrong, you
touch the cans, you wiggledaround, or or something, but it
doesn't necessarily mean whatthey're doing.
It's such a mind I can't swearon on here, but it it just ruins
you.
Okay, so I go to the RPF.
I didn't do anything, I didn'tdo anything.

SPEAKER_06 (24:31):
You were just doing your job and you were in an
interviewer auditing, and thenthis thing happened.

SPEAKER_03 (24:36):
That's right.
And so so I'm sent straight tothe RPS RPF as a total criminal.
You know, my husbanddisconnected from me, not this
one.
Wow, um, disconnected from me,Jim Mortland, and um, because he
was told that I was his why forwhy he wasn't doing good on his
own job, which was like, hello,I don't even talk to you, I
don't even see you.

SPEAKER_07 (24:57):
I know that's so funny when they're like, You're
making me look bad, you know.
Claire was in an RTC.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
Get your hand out of my face.

SPEAKER_07 (25:05):
Look, I reached I reached through my camera into
her camera.
Look at that.

SPEAKER_03 (25:12):
Get your hand out of my camera.

SPEAKER_06 (25:16):
She's like, You're making me look bad.
And I'm thinking to myself, I'venever, I never see you, and
we're never together.
How am I making you look bad?

SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Anyway, but yeah, we've all we've all had those
experiences where people arelike, Well, obviously, Mark is
doing very poorly, yeah, um, andthat's why you are also doing
poorly.
I'm like, I literally never seemy husband.
How is that how does that work?
Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 (25:43):
Yeah, none of her goodness is rubbing off on me,
and none of my badness isrubbing off on her.

SPEAKER_03 (25:50):
But you know, I I want to stress on that one
especially, like that that thedamage that it does to a
person's spirit.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's the whole purpose.
It oh, especially this one, youknow.
I okay, so I did, you know,petting with this person and I,
you know, slapped me around.
But this one was like, I didnothing.

(26:11):
Yeah, and and it's supposedly,and so I got sent to the RPF.
And because you have when youhave um this list one, which
means like on on a list that's apriority list, which has things
on it like L.
Ron Hubbard Scientology, if youhave a rock slam on those
subjects, which supposedly I didon L Ron Hubbard, then then you

(26:32):
have to do the OT levels all theway up through OT5.

SPEAKER_06 (26:36):
On the RPF?

SPEAKER_03 (26:38):
On the RPF.
I was only clear I rememberthat.

SPEAKER_06 (26:41):
What?
Yeah.
Hold on, say this part again.
Because you had a uh rock slam.
The only way to handle basedwhile you were thinking about
any one of these number ofthings, one of which is L.
Ron Hubbard to David Miscavige,you have to go, you have to do
the RPF and do the OT levelsbefore you can get off the RPF.

SPEAKER_03 (27:00):
Yeah.
I had to do up through OT5.

SPEAKER_06 (27:03):
So the people that are on the RPF for 10 years,
they're they're in that,probably in that category.

SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
Some of them, some of them are just you can't uh
it's a whole thing.
It's so arbitrary that peoplethink.
Maybe your uncle had you to comeoff.

SPEAKER_02 (27:19):
Yeah, but you know what I want to mention because
and again, this is probablygetting a little too technical,
but when you have that list onerock slam, in order to for it to
count as handled, when you'regetting you have to go through
false purpose rundown.
So you're now addressing and andgetting rid of those said quote

(27:39):
unquote evil purposes.
But the crazy part, and I'd loveto hear your thoughts on this,
Amy, is that to for the list onerock slam to count as handled,
they have to get that sameneedle reaction to come back.
Produced.
Yes.
Which which which I never sawhappen, by the way.

(28:00):
No, yeah, because it's all crap,right?
Because this is what happened.

SPEAKER_06 (28:05):
I love how you guys are arguing over whether the
fooie is actually fooie.
We already know it's fooie.

SPEAKER_03 (28:11):
Yeah, but it's just it's true though.
But so so I finally get ontoOT5, where you're supposed to
address, like specificallyaddress this thing, and my
folders opened, and I got to seeit because I'm supposed to
orient myself to the time andblah blah where it happened.
And it's a handwritten thingfrom Janadare that says,

(28:33):
opinion, she's thinking about L.
Ron Hubbard.

SPEAKER_06 (28:36):
What wait a minute.

SPEAKER_03 (28:39):
I didn't even say L.

SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
Ron Hubbard.

SPEAKER_06 (28:41):
Hold on a minute.
Is is is Jay is Jana DareSwanson the main baddie in your
in your origin story?
It sounds like she's the one whojammed you up in '84, right?

SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Or not in '84, but in LA.
She's your own personal wickedwitch of the West.

SPEAKER_06 (28:59):
So she was responsible for assigning you to
the RPF on two separateoccasions.

SPEAKER_03 (29:03):
I think three.
What?
And and also RPS RPFs, and alsonon-turbulation orders and
different things like that.
But anyway, she was she was notmy favorite.
But um, but so so now it comesout that I didn't even say the
word Elrin Hubbard in thatsession because I was like, I I

(29:25):
I I was like talking about ElrinHubbard and this, you know, no,
the whole thing was just a sham.
Anyway, by that time, I hadalready done I people pay
hundreds of thousands of dollarsto get to where I was now at, so
I could just laugh and say, haha, you know, there's nothing.
So I graduated.
It only took me 15 months to doit in Wellington.
But I did it.
I went all the way through, andthen as soon as I got out, I did

(29:47):
OT6 and seven.

SPEAKER_06 (29:49):
I had no idea, Amy.
I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 (29:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (29:53):
Wow, that's crazy.
Okay, but hold on, that's onlythree times.

SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
But wait, there's more 15-year gap neck this time,
though.

SPEAKER_07 (30:03):
Okay, you were you figured out just stay away from
Jada Dare.
Yeah, your 15 reprieve was JadaDare was on the RPF for 10
years.

SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So for 15 years, and then Iwasn't that's when I was in
watchdog committee and all thatkind of fun stuff.
Um, but the next time I went tothe RPF, I was age 40.

SPEAKER_06 (30:26):
And um, and what happened was I was in the int
base and I received a fitnessboard from CMO Int to the RPF,
which is completely not how itwas supposed to be done, but you
know, who you were in CMO Int,and you were you were, I
remember you were what what theyreferred to as WDC watchdog

(30:48):
committee.
You were watchdog committee forCC.
You were, I think you were abunch of different ones that you
kind of did, even though itwasn't your job.
You were still the one answeringemails.

SPEAKER_03 (30:59):
Like Golden Era Studios, Association for Better
Living Education, the COrganization, Scientology,
Celebrity Center, the FlagBureau, you were all of those
WDCs.

SPEAKER_06 (31:09):
You were WDC Able, WDC C C, WCC Ship, WCC Gold, S
One W D C S C N and W D S O W DC SO and W D C Able.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (31:23):
So now this were you were you WDC WISE for at one
point or no?
No.
Okay.

SPEAKER_06 (31:28):
So the watchdog committee is supposed to look
over everything that's happeningwith any one of those sectors.
Now, what I just explained, wejust explained to you in all
these different things, thateach one of those jobs that we
rattled off is a single person'sfull-time job to thoroughly
study and analyze what'shappening with their area and

(31:50):
then figure out ways that theycan make get bigger and make
more if they're making uh rwidgets, they need to make uh a
10 million widget somehow.
So you were doing all of thosejobs, like answering all of the
correspondence for all of thosejobs.

SPEAKER_03 (32:10):
All the strategies, the programs, the evaluations,
the everything.
And it was it was uh anightmare.
Literally didn't sleep, but Iwas in there for a long, long
time for over a decade.
But um, but so I got busted, andthen what happened?

SPEAKER_06 (32:28):
This is gonna be you guys are gonna see this, it all
comes back around.
It all comes back around.

SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Well, anyway, I I got busted, and because I was
disaffected, I suddenly had thisrealization that that I was
rationalizing complete insanity,you know, and and making it okay
in my mind.
And when I stopped doing that,then it it just jumped off the
page, like how nuts the placewas.
So I wasn't in agreement withanything.
I was getting pressured to dodifferent things, and I just

(32:56):
said, I'm not doing it, whichwas so unlike me.
Normally I would just likesalute both hands and just
figure it out and get it done,you know, at a dead run my whole
life.
That's how I was now I was like,I'm not doing it.
Um so I got a fitness board outof there into the RPF.

SPEAKER_06 (33:13):
But hold on a second.
Were you on the decks beforethat?
And didn't weren't was it there?
What something happened down atthe purification rundown place?

SPEAKER_03 (33:21):
The running program.

SPEAKER_06 (33:22):
The running program.
Tell that before you so becausethis is where the uh the thing I
said earlier comes into play.

SPEAKER_03 (33:29):
So when David Miscavige was coming up with all
kinds of different punishments,you know, like I was on the on
the purification program, thesweat program for eight straight
months, taking 5,000 knives.
And this is when my my mindstarted going crazy and like I
gotta get out of here.
Um, but we were all of theexecutives, he he made us go
down to this palm tree and runaround it for hours and hours in

(33:53):
our uniforms, and um until weall had a group realization
about how criminal we were.

SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
And um and this included do it running around
said tree until like two, threeo'clock in the morning, right,
Amy?

SPEAKER_06 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah, he would send them.

SPEAKER_02 (34:06):
I remember that leather shoes.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (34:09):
This was it, what year was this in?
Was this in the uh late ninetiesor early two thousands?
Yeah, okay.
So I remember when this washappening because sometimes he
would send those guys down thereat a meeting that was taking
place at eleven o'clock in themorning.
Like eleven o'clock at night.
Yes.
And then they would be out thereuntil early in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Yeah.
And and the and it didn't matterwhether these executives you
were even physically capable ofrunning around the tree.
Like I I have a the distinctmemory of Debbie Hughes, who was
diabetic, being put in awheelchair and still being
pushed around the tree in thewee hours of the morning because

(34:47):
she couldn't run.
That's sanity.

SPEAKER_03 (34:50):
I witnessed that from where I was doing
renovations.
I saw all the executives.
Now I'm now I'm busted to thedeck, so I'm doing renovations
and I see them all runningaround.
And I see Debbie in a wheelchairbeing pushed around, and it's
because she had a uh diabeticseizure or something like that.
And in Scientology, they have adestructive, disgusting thing

(35:11):
that what turns it on will turnit off.
Yeah, so you have to keep doingwhat's destroying you because
that is that turned on thismess, so it's gonna turn it off
too.
You know, you know destructive,how dangerous that is completely
dangerous.
Surprising she lived throughthat.
And anyway, so yeah, so I sofrom that from the decks there,

(35:33):
I went to what what happenedwith Wendell?

SPEAKER_06 (35:36):
Didn't something happen with Wendell again?

SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
Yes, okay, so Mark Mark's like a dog with a bone.
I'm sorry, Amy.

SPEAKER_07 (35:44):
You keep skipping over the good part, which makes
this even wilder.

SPEAKER_03 (35:50):
Well, Wendell was helping me because um well, we
started up a little, we wereboth on the purification program
together, and you know, and solike, and this is when I started
getting like I gotta get out ofhere type of thing, you know.
And so we started up likeprivate conversations and stuff
like that, and he was startingto help me.

(36:11):
And uh he was he told me how toset up a bank account because I
didn't know I'm 40 years old,never had a bank account in my
life.
So, and then gave me money, gaveme some gold coins, like you
know, yeah.
I had to give it all backflow,and I'm sure it never went back
to Windows.

SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
That must have been a hell of a back rope.

SPEAKER_03 (36:31):
So this is this is in 2003 now.

SPEAKER_06 (36:35):
That's right.
So during this time period, fromabout 2003 well into 2004, all
of the executives of the baseand a few of the executives from
Golden Air Productions wouldhave to sit in these six-hour
long meetings with DavidMiscavige every single day.
Sometimes we'd have threefour-hour meetings in one day.

SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
So And at the end of the day, sleeping two or three
hours a night, by the way.
And if anybody even so much aslooks dull for even a moment,
there's hell to pay.

SPEAKER_06 (37:07):
Anyway, so we were meeting with him, and we were
meeting in the brand new RTCbuilding.
And during this time, eventhough Wendell was kind of on
the decks and he was in trouble,he would still be made to come
to some of these meetings.

SPEAKER_04 (37:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (37:22):
But David Miscavige would make him um be by stand
like behind a pillar or a wall.
So so Wendell had to be in themeeting, but he but David
Miscavige was not allowed to seehim being in the meeting, even
though he was told that he hadto be in the meeting.
Anyway, so we would be.

SPEAKER_02 (37:43):
He had to be out out of um David Miscavige's kind of
peripheral vision.
Like you couldn't see him, hejust had to be there.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_06 (37:50):
So we would be in this hall in the middle of the
RTC building, this brand newbuilding, and everything is
perfectly pristine and no oneworks.

SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, million dollars.
40,000 square foot building thathas eight people working in it
in David Miscavige's wing on thesecond floor.

SPEAKER_06 (38:07):
Yeah, but it's it's but it's so clean and
everything's brand new that youwant to be careful that you're
not the guy that is the firstone to scratch the floor in a
brand new David Miscavigebuilding.
Anyway, but we're sitting inthese meetings.
There's maybe 50 people in thismeeting.
And there's a hallway that leadsoff to one of the bathrooms, and
Wendell is standing in thathallway right at the corner

(38:30):
where he can hear but can't beseen.
And David Miscavige is talkingabout you and him in the sauna,
and then he goes, You don't knowit, but these guys were given f
funny back rubs fucking 20 yearsago, you know.
And that's when I rememberedhearing about it.
I didn't know about the backrubs thing, it was years and
years before that.

(38:51):
Anyway, but that's how crazyDavid Miscavige is that he makes
somebody come to a meeting butcan't let them s him see them in
the meeting.
It's insanity.

SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
It is okay.

SPEAKER_06 (39:03):
So you went to the RPF that time, yeah, and then
how long were you that and thenthat was the last RPF you left
from the RPF?

SPEAKER_03 (39:11):
I was on that one for two years, and I I when I
went, I didn't tell themimmediately about Wendell.
I just decided I'm not tellingnobody nothing, and he didn't
tell anybody anything either.
And so it was like then my twinGabrielle Llewellyn wrote a
report.

SPEAKER_06 (39:32):
What?

SPEAKER_03 (39:32):
Yeah, she wrote a report up to end.

SPEAKER_06 (39:35):
Oh my god.
Okay, so now this is perfectsegue.
So then so, but then you got introuble on the RPF.

SPEAKER_03 (39:42):
Oh, I got sent to the RPS RPF.
Again.
Okay, and then with Gabrielle,by the way.

SPEAKER_06 (39:47):
Okay, she was your twin, so she had to go with you.

SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
Even though she's the one that wrote the report,
she went with you.
Wow, it was a double doublecross.

SPEAKER_03 (39:55):
Karma.
And then they they said that Icouldn't, even though it was a
two-week thing, they said that Icouldn't come off the int guys
said that I couldn't come offthe RPF until they approved it,
which you knew when that wasgonna be.
Oh, yeah.
Never never.

SPEAKER_06 (40:08):
That's gonna, it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
I just I've collapsed so so bad about that.
I said L.
Ron Hubbard says two weeks.
I've been on this thing for twoweeks.
I demand to come off becausenobody at Uplines or here can
override L Ron Hubbard.
That was my only way of gettingoff there.
And I and they did let me off.

SPEAKER_06 (40:24):
Well, because they're not gonna they're not
gonna tell the guys.

SPEAKER_03 (40:28):
They didn't tell in.

SPEAKER_06 (40:28):
They're gonna let you off, but they're not gonna
tell the guys upstairs that theylet you off.
So they wanna they're gonna playboth sides of this coin.

SPEAKER_03 (40:35):
Yeah, crazy.
That's right.

SPEAKER_06 (40:37):
Okay, and then you left the Sea Org from And then
he joined the Sea Org.

SPEAKER_03 (40:42):
I mean, joined the RPF.
Joined you, he got sent to theRPF.
And then we became twins.
And then what happened to Gam?
We gave each other back rubs.

SPEAKER_06 (40:54):
That's it.
It's that's it.
It's a dwindling spiral withAmy.
If you get a back rub, you bestbe in trouble soon.
She's got magic back rub hands.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
But hold on.
So what what happened toGabrielle?

SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
She left the Sea Org.
And so I had no way.

SPEAKER_06 (41:12):
Okay, so look.

SPEAKER_03 (41:13):
Because her, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (41:14):
Let's explain that too.
So when you go to the RPF,you're assigned to the RPF as a
punishment.
You get paired up with somebody,and that's called your twin.
And so everything that you do,um, if there's some sort of so
let's just say it's counselinglevel D, you do counseling on
them and they finish up, andthen they do counseling on you

(41:34):
and they finish you up.
And you both have to kind ofclimb the ladder of the RPF
together.

SPEAKER_04 (41:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (41:40):
Before until you graduate.
And and when you graduate, youboth have to graduate.

SPEAKER_04 (41:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (41:45):
So you could spend a year or two with somebody, and
then that person breaks.
They can't take it anymore, andthey say, uh, Sayanora, and then
they leave.
You have to get another twin,and then you have to start all
over again.

SPEAKER_03 (42:00):
That's what happened because her husband got got
offloaded out of the Corganization.
He was in the RPF in LA.
She was in the RPF at Flagbecause they were keeping them
separated.
She found out that he was gone,so she wanted to leave too.
So she left.
How did she find out that he wasgone?
I don't know actually.

SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
I don't remember.
I mean, I probably do know, andI just can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
Oh, it's all right.
I was just curious because II've seen scenarios where they
didn't even tell the husband orwife that you know their
partner.
It was way, it was gone.

SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
Oh, it was way past after he was gone already.
And it was yeah, and she was sofurious that she didn't know.
But listen to this I was stillmarried to Jim Mortland when I
was sent to the uh flag RPF.
Okay, I'm on there for like ayear, and I know that I'm not
going back to the Int Base, sowe decided that we I would get

(42:56):
we would get divorced becausehe's an Imp Base staff member,
and I'm on the RPF in Florida,and I'm not going back to the
Int base.
Period.
Not only am I not qualified, notbut I'm just not going to go.
And so so divorce papers weresent to me by the legal director
of gold on the RPF, and Ireceived these papers, and it's
signed by Jim Mortland inArizona as an insurance broker

(43:21):
or something.
I'm like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_07 (43:24):
He's not even at the base, he's already out of the
Sea Org, and he works at aninsurance broker.

SPEAKER_03 (43:30):
I don't, and I'm like, what is this?
So so you have to like write apetition to be able to make any
phone calls if you're on theRPF.
So I wrote this petition that Ineeded to call anybody to find
out what the heck, right?
And um so hold on a secondnumber.

SPEAKER_06 (43:49):
You're married to a dude who not only left the Sea
Org, left Scientology basically,and went out into the real world
and became a mortgage broker.

SPEAKER_03 (44:00):
Yeah, no, Hawaii, don't say.

SPEAKER_06 (44:01):
And you but you were unaware of everything.

SPEAKER_03 (44:04):
Totally unaware.

SPEAKER_06 (44:06):
That's how much husband and wife talk to each
other in the Seer guy.

SPEAKER_07 (44:09):
Just so you know.

SPEAKER_03 (44:10):
So then what happened is so I don't have any
phone numbers.
You know, he was at the in base,and all any any phone numbers
are confiscated anyway.
So I didn't have any phonenumbers.
So I called information for hisdad, who I met one time in 17
years of being married to Jane.
Jim.
I met him one time.
Um and so I called, I gotinformation and I called his

(44:33):
number.
His name is Max.
And I said, Hi, Max, this isAmy.
He's like, Oh, hi, Amy.
And I said, Hi, um I I was justlooking for for Jim.
You know, have you been in touchwith him?
And oh, you don't know?

SPEAKER_04 (44:50):
He's married.
I said, What's her name?

SPEAKER_03 (45:02):
And he said, Her name is Sarah, and I'm like,
Sarah, Sarah.
Oh my God, and probably SarahCunningham.
Oh god, because they would haveleft together, whatever.
So I said, Do you have hisnumber?
So I can give him a call.
And so I got Jim's number.
Listen to this.
So then, you know, and I alreadygot my one phone call, and I
said, No, I am gonna make thisother phone call, you know.

(45:24):
So I made this other phone call.
I I just, you know, defied therules to be able to make a call
to Jim.

SPEAKER_02 (45:30):
And I said, No, there was a one phone call rule.

SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
Oh, yeah.
You gotta write a petition, andI and I made it to the dad, and
now I'm gonna be making anotherone.
And plus, we didn't know Jim'sstatus.
Um, so and he was declared, andyou're not supposed to call
somebody declared.
And Gab was telling me that Ishouldn't call him, and I'm
saying I'm calling him, and youknow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
I mean, he's your husband, even though he's also
apparently now by now somebodyelse's husband as well.

SPEAKER_06 (45:56):
He's also a suppressive person married to
another suppressive person.

SPEAKER_03 (46:01):
And I'm calling him, but I have to know, I have to
know what's going on.
Sure.
So I call that number and and IJim says, Hello, and I said, Hi
Jim, it's Amy.
He goes, Hi, honey.

SPEAKER_07 (46:19):
I love Jim.
I love Jim.
That is classic Jim.

SPEAKER_03 (46:24):
Oh my god.
Well, 17 years of marriage, youknow.
Yeah, that's what he called me,it was honey.

SPEAKER_04 (46:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:30):
Um, so yeah, that's when I found out that he was
told that, you know, all thesethings about me.
And so he was and he wasoffloaded out of the sea
organization.
When we got married, we neverdid like legal papers.
We only had a Scientologyceremony, so it wasn't really
recognized.

SPEAKER_02 (46:47):
And so for 17 years, you had not technically legally
been married, actually.

SPEAKER_06 (46:53):
Which is very, very common in the C org because
there was I know one guy, um hisname was Olth, and he was
married to this girl um that wasin it was CMO Int.
She was in the PR division.

SPEAKER_02 (47:07):
Susan Porter Shirley.

SPEAKER_06 (47:08):
Susan Porter Shirley.
Anyway, and then she was at atthe in base for like six months.
She la she lasted not very long.

SPEAKER_02 (47:16):
And she was basically She was a daisy that
was not meant for that life.

SPEAKER_06 (47:20):
Yeah, and but she also wasn't really a
Scientologist.
She was a professional atwhatever she did and in public
relations and marketing andsomething like that.
And somehow she got to Cece andthey just fast-tracked her, and
she decided to join the C Web.
It was because she came straightto international business.

SPEAKER_02 (47:36):
Yeah, it was when they were recruiting people to
be writers at the gold base.
And she apparently had somewriting experience, which was
rare or you know, and she wasalso common.

SPEAKER_06 (47:48):
And she was also pretty and she was young, and it
was like, yeah, we want thisgirl.

SPEAKER_04 (47:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (47:52):
Anyway, she gets to the base, she freaks out, she
calls her brother.
Her brother just drives toKirby, picks up all her stuff,
and she just goes.

SPEAKER_04 (48:02):
Really?
Yes.

SPEAKER_06 (48:03):
And she was married to my friend Olf.
And then Olf, very shortlythereafter, started up another
relationship and he was gettingtogether and they were gonna get
married.
And I said, What about uh themarriage?
So he goes, Oh, the guy whomarried us in the Sea Org, which
was a guy named Tom Paquette, hedid the marriage ceremony as a

(48:23):
minister, a Scientologyminister, but he didn't fill he
didn't send any papers oranything in.

SPEAKER_01 (48:28):
He forgot.

SPEAKER_06 (48:29):
So when when Olf went to get divorced, he was
like, Hey, I got a file forthis, and and the guy said, Oh,
I forgot to know the papers,you're divorced.
And then I was like, and I andthen I heard about this, and
then when I was telling somebodythis, they named off like 10
people that had gotten marriedover the years, that there were
no paper, there was nopaperwork, they never changed
their names, they never didanything.

(48:50):
So it's like it's pretty prettyloose on the on the on the
government paperwork inScientology, if you know what I
mean.

SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Yep.
Yeah, no, God, but that's crazythough.

SPEAKER_06 (49:01):
So for 17 years, you were so at that point, you knew
the back rub hands were free toto roam to other well I've known
Matt since 1983, right?

SPEAKER_03 (49:17):
Christmas, Christmas eighty-three.

SPEAKER_00 (49:19):
That's when you first came to back rub, right?

SPEAKER_03 (49:21):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (49:23):
I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_03 (49:23):
But I had my eye on you.
But when we we became twins onthe RPF, we knew each other.
We knew each other, and um, webecame twins on the RPF, and we
were just so similar, you know,and hit it off right away like a
lot.

SPEAKER_07 (49:43):
And Matt and Matt was like, we need to take these
back rubs on the road.
You gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 (49:52):
Yeah, so he he like I I was always like, you know,
at least somewhat trying tofollow the rules because I've
been punished so much my in mylife, you know.
But um Matt Matt was sorefreshing because he was like,
let's get out of here.
What?
You know, it's it's my wholelife.
I don't have anything to go backto, you know, fall back on or

(50:15):
whatever, but but he was like,let's just do it.
And so it it was it was amazing.
We have a whole escape story andeverything like that.
But yeah, we left.
We got out of there.
It took us two months of riceand I ate rice and beans for
breakfast, lunch, and dinner,being punished, you know,
because of it, hard manuallabor, um, stuff like that.

(50:36):
He made a deal that he didn'thave to eat rice and beans if he
renovated things for people, butum, I wasn't that smart.
But um, yeah, for two months.
And then finally it was him thathad to say, if if if we're not
out of here by noon tomorrow,then you're gonna have to shoot
me in the F and head uh and I'mbreaking through these gates.

(50:57):
And so they got off their buttsbecause they knew that he was
serious, you know.
And they sent me to Seattle andsent him to Dade City, Florida,
where his family is, and we hadto find each other, but we did.
And as soon as we found eachother uh in the real world, you
know, a couple like two weekslater, we got married.

SPEAKER_02 (51:17):
Amazing.
And how vindictive is almostyeah, and how vindictive, by the
way.
I mean, obviously it goeswithout saying, but they know
you want to be together and theysend you to opposite sides of
the country.

SPEAKER_06 (51:29):
That's it.

SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
And they don't know where you went, right?

SPEAKER_06 (51:32):
And that is a very, very if you get sent to the RPF,
you get sent to differentplaces.
If you get kicked out of the SeaOrg, you get sent to different
places.
They don't want you guys toshare your stories and your
experiences so that you willbasically find out, oh, it was
Scientology that was crazy, itwasn't us.
That this is a very, very commonthread that they do.

SPEAKER_00 (51:52):
Yeah, you don't they don't want you to have the extra
strength of being connected upwith other people that are
like-minded.

SPEAKER_02 (51:58):
Exactly.
100% and who understand whatyou've been through and all
that, and who have witnessedsimilar abuses and crimes that
you've witnessed.

SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
That's exactly right.
Like you guys, you have such aspecial place in my heart
because we we were all theretogether.
I I was on that this disgustingproperty for 20 years, and you
were there.
You knew you know exactly um theabuses that happened, the two
gruesoms that are enforced, andall these different things.

(52:29):
Even though, Mark, somehow,somehow you didn't go to the
RPF.
I don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_07 (52:35):
I was a bit slippery.

SPEAKER_02 (52:36):
Well, to be fair, never get their hands on me.
To be fair, he was going to besent to the rehabilitation
project force the morning thathe escaped.

SPEAKER_06 (52:45):
Yeah, and I do want to tell I there was another time
where I dodged the RPF twice.
And the first time, it's thebest because it ties right into
your thing, Amy.
Okay, rewind.

SPEAKER_02 (52:57):
Why you gave someone a back rub?
Shh, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_07 (53:01):
I was getting the back rubs.

SPEAKER_04 (53:03):
I wasn't giving them anyway.

SPEAKER_06 (53:07):
Um rewind 1990.
Okay.
I've just gotten to the impbase.
Um I was a I was 17 years old,and there was not that many
other young people at theproperty.
It was a lot of old fogies andpeople in their 30s and their

(53:28):
40s and their 50s and 60s andall that.
But there wasn't a lot of peopleunder 20 that that you could
pair up with.
There might have been some otherones, but it wasn't anything you
were gonna you were gonna workout.
So um there was a there was thisgirl who worked in the meter
manufacturing um department, andI worked in the tapes

(53:49):
department, and she was about myage.
I think she was a little bitolder than me or a little bit
younger, but she was very closeto my age.
And um I would get rides homewith her to the apartment
building.
She had a car, she had a like aToyota, I think I don't remember
what it was, but it was ahatchback.
Anyway, I would ride with herall the time, and we would hang

(54:13):
out a lot.
And in I want to say 1991, I'donly been there for a year or
so, and um there was some sortof family reunion or s family
get-together that it was veryimportant that that I attend.
And my mom was gonna go, mysister was gonna go, everyone

(54:34):
was gonna go to the wedding.
A wedding, and I had to go.
And when I went, before you go,you have to get uh an
interrogation to find out if youdid anything, and then you're
gonna get another interrogationwhen you get back, so you don't
try not to do anything bad.
Anyway, it just so happened thatat the exact same day I was

(54:57):
gonna go to go visit my familyin um Denver and Missouri, I
think, something like that.
This other girl from the mameter department was also gonna
go on on leave.
So we she gave me a ride down toLA, and then she didn't have a
place to stay, and my mom said,Oh, you can stay here at our
apartment.
My mom had an apartment at 1234Edgemont, which is just a block

(55:19):
away from the complex.
So one thing leads to another,and she ends up staying the
night at my mom's house, whereI'm also staying the night.
And we get to doing some stuff,and we fall asleep in the bed in
my the room that we were that Iwas uh would stay in, but she

(55:39):
was supposed to stay in thatroom.
I was supposed to be in my myhalf-brother's room on the his
bunk bed or something like that.
Anyway, around four o'clock inthe morning, my sister is in the
Sea Org in Los Angeles, and shewould stay at my mom's house
because it's only a block away,and she's open, and I hear the
keys jingle, jingle, jingle onthe door.

(56:00):
And the room that we're stayingin is the living room of that
apartment.
So the door is right there.
When that door opens, there'sgonna be two people that are not
supposed to be sleeping in thesame bed, sleeping in the same
bed.
Anyway, so then as soon as Ihear that, I jam out of the bed
and I go fall asleep in mybrother's room.

SPEAKER_02 (56:18):
And this friends is what we refer to as a mist with
hole.
Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 (56:24):
So, okay, so fast forward, I do my thing.
With the next morning, we go ourseparate ways.
She goes to her see her familyin Florida, I go to see my
family in Missouri, which was avery, very rare thing you could
do back then.
And only if you were reallyyoung and you had just gotten
in, because they didn't wantyour family to think that you

(56:45):
were going to be locked up herefor the rest of your life.
So they they let you go see yourfamily for the wedding or
whatever it is.
Anyway, so I get back, I get myinterrogation, squeaky clean,
nothing happened while I wasgone.
And then okay, so that's 1991.
I meet Claire 92, we getmarried, everything's great.

SPEAKER_02 (57:09):
Well, you met me in September 1991.

SPEAKER_06 (57:12):
Exactly, but we got married in 1992.

SPEAKER_02 (57:14):
Three months after this?
Yeah, three months.
Okay.

SPEAKER_06 (57:17):
Anyway, so then um they in 1993, when they got the
IRS recognition, Scientology gotuh recognized as a nonprofit in
1993, and they have the wholesports arena thing and the war
is over.
David Miscavige issued anamnesty.
And he said, anybody who didanything in Scientology, if you

(57:38):
write it up and turn it intoyour ethics officer, slate's
clean.
Okay.
So I do that.
I just put a bunch of stuff onthere.
I do not put that on therebecause I think that's gonna be
too much.

SPEAKER_02 (57:51):
They're gonna they're gonna light me up for
that one.
See, Amy, your only flaw wasthat you believed that they
would forgive you.
Mark knew I knew ahead of timeyou were gonna forgive me.

SPEAKER_06 (58:01):
I'll write everything else, but I ain't
writing that.
Anyway, the way it worked in thein the in-base is you had a
computer program that was in amainframe.
So there was a building on theproperty that had all the tape
drives and the computers.
And when you wrote something onyour little terminal, it was
being saved in that thing.

SPEAKER_02 (58:19):
And and wasn't by this time the the lady that
you're talking about, she wasalready gone from that property.
No, no, no.
Oh, okay.
Skipping ahead.
Skipping ahead.

SPEAKER_05 (58:28):
Okay.
Look at my jamming my head off.

SPEAKER_06 (58:32):
Okay.
So I don't write that up.
Yeah.
Okay, now fast forward to 1994.
Okay.
And I'm sitting in my in thetapes area, rocking out,
checking pancakes.
Oh, and by now we we're married.
We've been married for at leasttwo years now.
And I'm sitting there makingtapes, doing my thing, and all

(58:55):
of a sudden, this person fromthe the the police department,
department three, the guys thatlight you up for doing shit, he
comes in and he says, Hey, weneed to go.
I need to talk to you.
We need to go and do aninterview.
And I'm like, Uh-oh.
What'd I do?
Anyway, so I go to theinterview, he's interrogating
me, he starts asking me aboutmessing around with this girl.

(59:18):
And I'm like, What the hell?
Well, that girl had beenassigned to the RPF in Los
Angeles about a year beforethis.
And during the course of herinterrogations, she admits that
we did this thing at this onetime back in 1992.
Anyway, I go, I he starts askingme about it.

(59:40):
I go, yeah, yeah, that happened100%.
And he's like, You're gonna goto the RPF.
And I was like, I was like, noway.
I put it in my amnesty.
Now, when I printed, when I didthe amnesty, I wrote it in the
computer program, but I neveractually turned it in.
I forgot.
I wrote it.

(01:00:00):
He forgot, but I didn't turn itin.
Maybe it had some other stuff inthere that could have got lit up
a little bit for.
Anyway, but I never turned itin.
So I he I said, It's in myamnesty.
If you just pull it out, you'llsee I already wrote, I wrote up
everything that happened.
And he goes, Uh, I don't know.
I we think people would haveknown that if you did that.

(01:00:22):
And I'm like, Well, go look.
Anyway, so he goes, So, okay, goback to work.
I'll tell you, uh, once I findit, I'll come see you.
I'm gonna read it and then I'lldetermine if how this is gonna
go.
So I go back to my workspace andI get jam, I jam right in that
computer and I add in thatparagraph about the thing that
happened with the thing backin '92.

(01:00:44):
And then I just save it and goback to work real quick.
Anyway, he goes off to thefiles, he never finds it because
I never printed it out andsubmitted it.
And then he comes in and hegoes, We can't find it anywhere.
We've been through all yourfolders, we can't find it.
And uh I'm like, folders?
He's like, Yeah, you have fourethics folders.
That's how much of a shit youare.

(01:01:06):
Anyway, so I say, Okay, well, Igo, Oh, I did it on the Merck,
which is the acronym for thiscompute internal computer
Scientology computer system.
I did it on the Merck, I canjust print it out.
And he's like, Okay, fine.
So then I he goes, I'm gonna gowith you to make sure you don't
do anything like add it in.
I'm like, okay, whatever.

(01:01:27):
So we go, we sit down, I open itright up, and I go, see, look,
it's right there.
And then he goes, Okay, print itoff.
I printed it off.

unknown (01:01:39):
That's it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:40):
Dodged a bullet.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 (01:01:43):
See, I knew I would get trouble with it at the time,
but there's no way I'd get introuble with it two years later,
after I already told them, andthey just missed it, you know.
Right.
Which they did.
They missed it.
So I'm sorry.
Sorry, it sucks to suck.
They missed it.
Anyway, and this poor girl wasin the RPF wherever she was in
the RPF, and then she dideventually, I think, leave the
Sea Org from the RPF.

(01:02:03):
Um, and she lives in Floridanow, she's got got two kids, and
I'm pretty sure she was marriedto a Scientologist or something,
and it didn't all work out.
But anyway, um, it was that'swhy when you said that you'd
written it up in your amnestyand you got lit up, I was like,
oh, ain't that the truth?
Ain't that the truth?

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:22):
It's a trap.
Yeah, somebody said it's a trap.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 (01:02:26):
Yeah, and also whenever somebody leaves the Sea
Org and they start speaking outor whatever, they just take all
those things that you wrote andyou told them, and then they
they they sort of craft thisnarrative that oh, she was a
serial, sexy person doing backrubs.
And then that's your sort ofthat's your sort of thing that

(01:02:48):
ever they want to tell everybodyabout is that you know, this
this gal gives great back rubs,you know, and she's a criminal
because of it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:56):
In the Freedom Magazine, Amy Scobie is a serial
sexual deviant with a that can'tcurb her wanted sexual desire.

SPEAKER_07 (01:03:07):
Matt's like reading that going, I wish, I totally
wish I would be the guy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:16):
That is not how you describe me at all.
Yeah, repeat adulteress, youknow, and like, oh my god.
But anyway, crazy, crazy, crazy.
But yeah, yeah, man.

SPEAKER_06 (01:03:27):
It's even funnier that Jim left, and did he
legitimately get married?
Did they actually get married?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:34):
Yeah, they got married.

SPEAKER_06 (01:03:34):
So they legit got married, and he was living a
whole new life, and you had noclue that any of that had
happened.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:41):
No clue.

SPEAKER_06 (01:03:42):
That's how segregated they keep husbands
and wives in the Sea Org.
That your husband can't be ableto do that.

SPEAKER_07 (01:03:48):
Of 17 years, it wasn't leave the Sea Org, leave
Scientology, get married, get ajob, and you don't even know
that any of those things havehappened.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:00):
He was declared everything, the whole thing.
And I sent money for thisdivorce that went to somebody's
pocket,$325.
Where can you?

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:08):
Oh, you went to file for a divorce and you paid
somebody in the Sea Work to makedo all the stuff?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:13):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:15):
And you were never married.
No, and you never got your moneyback.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:20):
Yeah, uh, I never got, of course not.
And plus I had to send any moneythat Wendell gave me too back.
And the gold coins.
Oh, yeah, those had to go too.
They're probably worth a lot ofmoney now.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:32):
I was I was quote unquote married for 20 years in
Sior, and then I found out weweren't never married.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:38):
No way.
For 20 years.
Okay.
I know some people are gonna askbecause it just turns out Matt
and Amy both were neverofficially married when they
were officially married.
Now, Claire and I, becauseClaire was underage when we got
married.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:53):
I was 17.

SPEAKER_06 (01:04:54):
And I was 19.
In order in California, ifyou're a 19-year-old and you
want to marry a 17-year-old, youhave to go and get a
psychological evaluation.
Yeah.
Like a legit, you have to go toa legit psychologist and they
have to talk to you guys and seeif if if I'm bamboozling her, if
I got the I got the Gemini mindtricks going on.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:15):
For some reason, you also, at least I was told that
you also had to do a blood testand do some other things.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:22):
There's a bunch of stuff you gotta do.
So because Scientology frownsupon psychiatry and psychology,
they were like, you can't dothat.
So the common thing there was aton of people that were young
that would get married.
So this is all a system thatthey got worked out.
You drive to Las Vegas and youget married at the Clark County

(01:05:43):
Courthouse, which is 24 7 in LasVegas.
You can get married at fouro'clock in the morning if you
want.
I think we actually might have.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:50):
We got married at like one twelve thirty.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:53):
Yeah, we got married in the middle of the night.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:55):
Yeah, it was past midnight.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:56):
Because we left it, we left at LA like in the
afternoon, and my dad.
Actually, we went to Los Angeleson the we got had to get this
all approved through 50 billionpeople.
We went on SAT on we drove downThursday night.
Thursday night, I got a rentalcar.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:14):
Uh no, your dad was in LA, so he was a little bit of
a few.

SPEAKER_06 (01:06:17):
Oh, we went on the run.
We went on we got down to LosAngeles.
There's a van that drives thereever three times a day, back and
forth between uh the inheadquarters in Los Angeles, uh
the Hollywood Guarantee Buildingon 6331 Hollywood Boulevard.
90625.
Um anyway, um and uh 900 twofive two eight.

(01:06:39):
Anyway, we get down to LA, mydad picks us up in Hollywood and
drives us to Vegas.
We get married in the middle ofthe night.
We drive back.
Yeah.
We drive straight back to LA.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:51):
Yeah.
And now it's like five we gotback five o'clock in the morning
on Saturday morning.

SPEAKER_06 (01:06:56):
Yeah, so we le didn't left on Friday morning.
We got we got off to LA.
We went to Vegas on Fridaynight, got married, back in LA
on Saturday in the middle of thenight.
Our wedding is on Saturday inthe in the in the early
afternoon at Celebrity Center.
We get married, we stay atCelebrity Center in one of their

(01:07:17):
rooms in the hotel there thatnight, and the next morning
Claire has to go back to thebase to go back to work.
That was our our honeymoon wasthe night at the manor.
That was our honeymoon.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:29):
Anyway, so and then when we were at Celebrity
Center, we had a Scientologywedding ceremony.
So we the day before, this is avery highly debated thing in our
family, of when our anniversaryis.
Because I say it's the daybefore, because that's when we
actually got married.
And the Scientology thing meantnothing.

(01:07:50):
So that's not the day, it's theday before.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:53):
So And my argument is yes, but it was after the
Scientology ceremony that yousealed the deal.

SPEAKER_06 (01:07:59):
That's right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:00):
So you seal it.

SPEAKER_06 (01:08:03):
I know how to give a back rub.
Anyway, so so, but this is veryconvenient for me in case I miss
the first day and she sayssomething about it, I'd be like,
oh, I thought you always wantedto celebrate it on the second

(01:08:25):
day.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:27):
Oh man.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:08:28):
Always thinking ahead, you gotta throw a little
bit of uncertainty in there andget a little bit of wiggle room
on the day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:33):
Yeah.
And well, we got married onMarch 13th, which is around.
Nice because we wanted becausewe that's the best.
That's the best.
It's like a big F you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:08:45):
Happy birthday, bitch.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:50):
We got together despite all your nonsense.
That's crazy.
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:55):
I cannot believe we're about to have our
anniversary um March 13th comingup right now.
Nice 21 years.
Yeah.
Amazing.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:04):
And that's a perfect segue, folks, because we have a
comedy show that's coming up.
And it's going to be in Denver,and it's on March 11th.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:13):
March 11th.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:14):
And if all goes well, we might have a Matt or we
might have an Amy there as well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:19):
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:20):
He'll be there for sure.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:21):
Okay, we're still working on Amy then.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:23):
And and by the way, also to tie into your
anniversary, we have an onlinesilent auction which will end at
11.59 p.m.
on March 13th.
Nice.

unknown (01:09:38):
Perfect.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:39):
Anyway, uh, we still have tickets available for this.
There will be a silent auction.
You can buy tickets and thendonate them.
And this is our comedy for acause.
It's going to be a comedy show.
It's going to be a regularcomedy show.
It's not going to be a comedyshow and we're going to make fun
of Scientology.
It's just a comic.
It's just a we got a regularcomic that it's a good comic

(01:10:00):
that is very popular at the thisclub.
And he's going to come and dothe show.
And we're going to have a greattime.
And it's all the proceeds aregoing to go to the Aftermath
Foundation.
Yes.
So I just wanted to remindeverybody about that.
Did you guys want to do um Ohlook at I got all these
different ones here?
Do you guys want to do um somequestions?

(01:10:21):
Do we we still have a question?

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:23):
Are you guys good with that if we do a few
questions before we head out?
Awesome.
Totally perfect.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:28):
Oh wow, we got literally we got all right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:31):
Uh Martin Ottman, another question for Matt.
In the beginning of 1997, afence was built around the
Hacienda Gardens apart uhcompound.
Do you know the specific uhsorry I'm not sure?

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:45):
Do you know the specific reason for that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:47):
Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:49):
No, not particularly.
It's just to make it moresecure.
I mean, uh that of obviouslythey don't want they didn't want
Scientology Sea org membersescaping, and they didn't what
are you doing?
Sorry, I was trying to fix thishere.
Holy moly Jesus.
Um they didn't the Sea Orgmembers if you were escaping

(01:11:10):
from the Sea Org.
And it was because they didn'thave in and out points of that
complex.
They've did and also DavidMiscavige got set up with um he
had apartments there now, sothey had to secure the location.
So not just any Tom DickerHarry.
You used to be able to driveinto the hacienda gardens.
Used to just be able to drive inand drive all around, in and

(01:11:33):
out, no problem.
There wasn't a gate or anythingto get into that place.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:37):
Yeah, so they built all that.
That's one of the things thatwas happening.
Because all the CEO members weregone during the daytime.
All day, every day.
All the local criminals knewthat there was nobody in those
apartments.
So these guys were coming inthere, breaking into the
apartments, and then grabbingwhatever they can grab.

SPEAKER_06 (01:11:52):
Can you imagine your CEO number?

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:54):
You got nothing, and that got two, you got two
pennies they scratched together,and they took both of them
pennies.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:03):
Yeah.
Oh, to be a fly on the wall whenone of those burglars walks into
the apartment and there's likefive pairs of nylon worn down
pants and nothing else.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:14):
47 bunk beds in a two-bedroom apartment.
It's like, what the hell?
They're three high.
They go four high in LA, bitch.
We can only do three herebecause of your stupid
apartments.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:30):
Oh dear.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:31):
Okay, we got another one here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:32):
Okay.
Uh, Jason, hi Amy.
Remember this one.
When David Miscavige gave TomCruise the Freedom Medal of
Valor, David Miscavige must havefelt six feet tall.
Okay.
Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:46):
Sitting next to each other.
We were both on the RPF.
Matt and I were sitting next toeach other watching, we were
made to watch this event threetimes through so that we could
become more KSW like Tom Cruise,keeping Scientology working
because he was he was supposedto be this sample that we all
should strive for.
It was the most we looked ateach other like, is this for

(01:13:06):
real?
Tom, you're the most dedicatedScientologist I know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:11):
I know every single Sea Org member in Unison were
like, the fuck?
For real.
I've been here for 20 years, andthis guy, the guy who can run
fast and jump off shit, he's thebest.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:27):
Yeah, I'm thinking, even if that was true, you would
never say that to the rest ofthe Sea Org.
I'm on McCoy.

SPEAKER_06 (01:13:34):
It was literally, I remember everyone being like,
Are you kidding me?
You were talking shit about thisguy three years ago about how he
was a piece of shit, and nowhe's the best.
It was like, yeah, DavidMiscavige is such a two-face.
It's unbelievable.
Okay.
We have a few super chats, so Iwanted to get those.

(01:13:56):
We got uh oh, super sticker.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:57):
Super sticker, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 (01:13:59):
Um and then um we haven't gotten that in a while.
I think we forget to turn offthe monetizer monetization when
we do the stream, and we don'tnormally get super chats, but
thank you for that.
Um okay, gosh, there's so manygood ones.
I wanted to show this onebecause this one came in early.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:14):
Okay, question for Amy.
Why were the other positions ofwatchdog committee not filled
when you were holding thesedifferent posts at the same
time?
Good question.

SPEAKER_06 (01:14:24):
They'd all been busted.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:26):
Yeah, people if you're not you don't live very
long on those different jobs.
Um, and so like when somebodywould get busted, then you would
just get their sector.
Yeah, yeah.
When I you had to hold it fromthe side.
On these jobs, you'reresponsible for everything that
happens in that entire sector.

(01:14:47):
Like, for example, when I wasWDC Scientology, I was CC, SO, C
org, and Scientology at the sametime.
So it's all organizationsbasically.
And one organization, uh, Tampa,didn't pay their rent, and that
created a flap.
David Miscavige ordered that Ipersonally pay it,$5,000.
That I paid for it.

SPEAKER_06 (01:15:07):
So you pay their rent?

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:09):
Yeah.
So I went and got money fromWendell, um, who was WDC
Reserves, Mark Ingbert, MarkIngbert, who was something or
other uh um Mark Yeager, who wasWC chairman.
I just made somebody in thelandlord office, I just made
everybody give me money, andthen I paid it, but it was like
we don't have that money.
I had to get it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:28):
Yeah, no, five thousand dollars is more than
you would make in two years ofwork.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:34):
And and so you're held responsible for anything
that goes on in that sector.
That's so weird.
So it was it was a nightmare,and people didn't last very
long.
But um, I was in there for 11years.

SPEAKER_06 (01:15:45):
When did you when did you first start in WDC?

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:49):
1990.

SPEAKER_06 (01:15:50):
Okay, so the girl that got me to the city or 91,
91.
The girl that got me to the AmpBase, she was WDC programs, and
she wrote this thing.
Jennifer Ollie.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:03):
Ollie mince.
I got in trouble probably whenshe blew.

SPEAKER_06 (01:16:07):
Anyway, she was WDC, and she'd only been there for
like six months or maybe a year.
She was in CMO, the Commodore'sMessenger organization in
Clearwater, CMO CW.
And she got promoted to the Impbase, and then she found out
that my sister and I were in theSea Org in Los Angeles, and so
she um put us on a list to cometo the Imp base.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:28):
Because she was your friend, right?

SPEAKER_06 (01:16:30):
She was our friend from school.
We went to Delphi together.
And she's in my book, andthere's a whole bunch of other
stuff about Ollie in my book.
Anyway, um she lives in Denvernow.
She lives in Denver now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:41):
Really?
She lives in Denver.
She lives in Denver.
She's one of the localScientologists that we'll invite
her to the uh comedy show.
It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_06 (01:16:52):
Anyway, but she but she did she was WDC programs.
Was she any other WDCs or shewas just WDC programs?

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:00):
She did she did that job, and then she didn't let she
blew.
I I went with her to a familyfunction and COB assistant,
which was Shelly, assigned me towith as a buddy, as well as uh
Kevin Catano as a buddy for her.
She has to go to a family thing.

SPEAKER_06 (01:17:18):
Yeah, is that where she escaped?

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:20):
Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:17:22):
What she had two watchers and she still got away.
How'd she pull that off?

unknown (01:17:27):
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:27):
Oh, anyway, it's a long story, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, that's amazing though.

SPEAKER_06 (01:17:31):
That's amazing that they were like, she's gonna
blow.
Yeah, they knew she's she'sgonna blow.
We gotta have at least not oneperson, we're gonna have two
people watchers.
Yeah, and she's still doingthat.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:43):
One was a security guard, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:17:45):
Holy moly! Yeah, totally crazy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:47):
But um, but you know, and then there were other
times I wasn't holding all ofthem at the same time.
I held I was holding SOS E N andCC, and then I was assigned
gold.
Now trying to get around.

SPEAKER_06 (01:17:58):
You've got to slow down a little bit because some
of these people, this is thefirst time they're ever seeing
us.
CC is celebrity center, yeah.
SO is for the C org.
So these are executives that aresupposed to be over a certain
sector of Scientology, andthey're overall they're the ones
responsible for expanding andfiguring out ways for them to

(01:18:19):
expand and do better and allthat.

SPEAKER_04 (01:18:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:18:21):
And Amy's basically telling you that she was doing a
bunch of these, and all youreally are doing is answering
and replying to things thatthey're doing.
And if you get to do the plansand the programs, that's like
extra if you're able to get tothat level.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:38):
Yeah.
I mean, but also if you so youwere finished evaluations of the
of the sector and stuff likethat, believe me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:45):
Yeah, but also, so you were covering Corg, which is
every organization in the worldthat is staffed by Sea Org
members and Scientology, whichis every other organization.
So basically, you wereresponsible for every single
organization in the entireworld, both C organization and

(01:19:09):
not C organization.
You were literally responsiblefor every single organization in
the world that was deliveringScientology to anyone while
sitting in eight-hour meetingswith David Miscavige, and the
only time you can work is whenhe goes to bed.

SPEAKER_06 (01:19:26):
Holy moly.
Okay, I gotta show one morecomment because it's hilarious,
and I I'm gonna tell whathappened.
Um it's from Techie, I'll readit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:35):
Hi from Nebraska.
RPF'd twice.
The first time I ended up at theimp base, and the second time
was for being late to mustertwice.
Love Matt and Amy's take on it.

SPEAKER_06 (01:19:47):
Yeah, so in 1993, the base flooded.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:52):
1990.

SPEAKER_06 (01:19:52):
1990, August 1990, the base flooded, and everybody
on the property was assigned acondition of confusion, which is
the lowest condition that youcan be in inside the Sea Org or
Scientology or any of that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:07):
Because that totally makes sense, because of course
the Sea Org members we'retalking about had everything to
do with the base being flooded.

SPEAKER_06 (01:20:14):
Yeah.
So our overts caused excessexcess precipitation.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:20):
And mud to slide down that hill.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:20:24):
Excess precipitation, which led to
excess mud sliding into theproperty.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:28):
Which led to excess punishment for said excess
precipitation and excess mud.

SPEAKER_06 (01:20:33):
Anyway, and the and the deal was that if you were
late once, then you had to stayup.
If you were late for a muster,there's at least three or four
musters a day where all the crewhave to line up and be accounted
for so they can count thechickens and make sure that none
escape the coop during the dayor during the night.
Okay.
So we we get counted.

(01:20:54):
And if you're late at one ofthose musters, even by 10
seconds that you have to stay upall night and do it all nighter.
Do all nighter.
You have to work on you justhave to work all night.
It can be at your own job, itcan be at something else, but
you're working all night, andthen you have to just be there
in the morning, just like youdon't go home, you don't sleep,
you don't do anything, you justwork for 24 hours, basically.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:15):
Totally makes sense.
Excess sleep deprivation isgoing to really help you be on
time to the next muster.

SPEAKER_07 (01:21:21):
And also have more power over the cumulus maximus
clouds that are floating upthere.

SPEAKER_06 (01:21:27):
Anyway, so so he'd get so this guy, old Techie, he
gets he's late and he's gottastay up all night, which is
silly because we were staying upall night, every night, anyway.
So that's kind of whatever.
But what would happen is wewould work all night, and then
maybe around let's say 6, 7.30,when the sun starts coming up a

(01:21:50):
little bit, you go, hey, youknow what?
I'm just gonna jam a littlecatnap in before mustard at 8
30.
And then and then everybody'sgotta be sure to wake everybody
up so that they can get to themustard.
Well, we would sleep in tapesalmost every night, and we would
some of us would wake up late.
Some of us would wake up at likeeight and then have just a few

(01:22:10):
minutes to kind of get your shittogether, grab a bite and get
the muster.
And some of us would wake up at8 27 and have exactly three
minutes to run to the other sideof the property for muster,
wherever muster is by the de thedining hall.
Well, Bruce, he uh old techie islate the once.
Sorry, he's it's in my book,it's in my book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_06 (01:22:30):
Anyway, and then the second time um he gets assigned
to the RPF because he's sleepingin tapes, and like at 8 28, the
head of tapes is like, go getevery she's yelling at everybody
in line, somebody go get Bruce.
And everybody's like, Fuck that.
I'm not gonna get if they callthis thing eight seconds

(01:22:52):
earlier, I'm going to the RPF.
That's not happening.
Anyway, so nobody went and gothim, and he was late a second
time.
And so he was assigned to theRPF, I want to say in Los
Angeles, and he hadn't slept forabout eight years before he got
assigned to the RPF.
And he was literally and he wasMark's not exaggerating.

(01:23:14):
This guy was I never saw a weekgo by where he didn't pull at
least one or two all-nighters.
It was it was impossible thatthis man was as smart as he was
and technically genius withoutany sleep.
Anyway, he gets a side.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:31):
By the way, I know who you are and I love you.
And I worked with him so muchfrom my one of my first RPFs to
the last.
Not to the last, but to the youknow, several.
But anyway, we work together.

SPEAKER_06 (01:23:43):
He's a total genius.
Anyway, he comes 100%.
A few weeks get bought.
And also, we're in the middle oftrying to fix all these cassette
duplicators.
No one can figure out how to fixthem.
There's they're always gettingmessed up.
And everybody that worked inthat area had been assigned to
the RPF or kicked out of the SeaOrg uh six, eight months before
this.
And so the this old techie guy,he's always fixing these

(01:24:07):
machines, trying to get themgoing.
And now he's gone.
So now there's no one who canwork on these machines.
And so a few weeks goes by, andthen David Miscavige is like,
Hey, why are you guys not makingany progress?
And I'm like, You got you guyssent away the dude who was
fixing everything.
We're we're we're up therewithout a paddle at this point.
And so he gets brought back.

(01:24:30):
He looked like a differentperson.
He had he was standing upstraight.
Whenever he would be doingstuff, he's always like slouched
over a desk just about to fallover from exhaustion.
He looks better, he could talk.
It was like, oh, this guy's aregular guy if you put sleep in
him.
And um, anyway, then he we didhe'd ended up end up fixing

(01:24:50):
everything, and everything wentwonderful.
But um, but but he went to the Rhe got to the base the same way
you did, Amy.
He went to the RPF, and then theRPF got moved to the base to
build all the stuff for GoldenEra.
And then when he was done, it'sfunny how the cut the
construction always getsfinished right before everybody

(01:25:11):
is found not guilty and getssent back to whatever they're
doing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:15):
We worked in the same office together, and um, he
did all the electronics, and Idid all the electrical and
electronics logistics.
So we we worked in the sameoffice together.
We had a crow in there too.
But anyway, he I noticed that hewrote, I woke up and saw them
all mustering out the window.
Oops, could have made it bybusting the window.

SPEAKER_06 (01:25:32):
Oh, is that is this did he make a comment?

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:25:37):
Oh, Claire, you gotta find it.
That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:39):
It's at the bottom.
Oh okay, good.

SPEAKER_06 (01:25:42):
We'll get it.
We'll put it oh yeah, here itis.
Okay, good.
Old techie says, I woke up andsaw them.
How crazy is it that I can tella story and the person the story
is about can tell us the side oftheir story.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:52):
Yeah, I love it.
Could have made it by bustingthe window.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 (01:25:56):
Um, with that, and so uh to be fair, at this time
we were mustering in front ofthe manufacturing building.
And so tapes was right inside.
And there was a the tapestechnician office, is where him
and this other guy, Bob, theywould sometimes sleep in there.
And in that office, it had a itwas a small little you couldn't

(01:26:19):
you couldn't even go in thereand change your mind.
It was tight, okay?
But it had a desk and a chair,and that's what it fit.
And if you pulled the if youpulled the chair out, so that's
a bit that's a bed.
If it you got a length of adesk, that might as well be a
carpet bed.
Um so when he did wake up, likeI think somebody did actually
try to wake him up, but he justhadn't slept in so many days

(01:26:41):
that he just didn't didn't wakeup.
Anyway, I mean believe me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:45):
I could imagine him looking out that window being
like, oh man.
I mean, the torture, the torturewith the no sleep there, God,
that not only did we see otherpeople going through it, but us
going through it.
I mean, I remember one time onthe RPF, I'd I don't know how
many days I'd been up, but um, Iremember it was freezing
outside.

(01:27:05):
I was running everywhere I wentbecause I was on the RPF and I I
was trying to get to the otherside of the property, and I'm
trying to figure out where I canjust lay down for just a couple
minutes.
And I finally went to the highvoltage room because nobody was
going to disturb me there.
And I laid on a freezing coldconcrete floor, just tears
flowing, you know, and I wasn'tone to cry or complain.

(01:27:26):
I just it just was I was donephysically.
And when I got off the RPF, theydidn't have any birthing, so I
was stuck into an electricalcloset with a chair, and that's
where I literally slept.
Was this at the end base?
Yes.

SPEAKER_06 (01:27:42):
Which which room was this?
Is the one by the music studio?

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:46):
Do you know right across from John Horwich's
house?

SPEAKER_06 (01:27:49):
Yeah.
That's that little that's whereyou were living inside of that.
It's it's literally like alittle baby hut that is built
around a bunch of transformersand power equipment.
And you were sleeping on thefloor next to the equipment on a
chair.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:05):
Where that one was in a chair, but where I found to
sleep was one that was anothercloset room with a concrete
floor.
But anyway, nobody could findme.
I finally heard started likehearing somebody calling my name
and I woke up.
But yeah, that's the best.

SPEAKER_06 (01:28:20):
At the property at the international headquarters,
it was very often a level ofpunishment that you would be
what's called restricted to thebase.
So if you if you did somethingwrong and you get your hand
slapped, it's no big deal.
But if somebody really wants tobe like, hey, you know what?
You never this is you're in bigtrouble.
You would get assigned lowerconditions, and because they

(01:28:43):
would think this person mightescape if they're still going to
birthing to the apartments thatwe lived in in Hemet or San
Yocento, then we might keep wantwant to keep these people locked
up here on the property so theydon't skedaddle on us while
they're in big trouble.
And so it would be calledrestricted.
If you were restricted, thenthat means you couldn't leave
the property for any reason byyourself and usually with

(01:29:07):
anybody else either.
They just you just were lockedon the property.
And there were hundreds ofpeople like this on the property
that were out of uh maybe 800people that were in this site,
sort of could be anywhere from20 to 100 people in this sort of
category of being restricted tothe base.
And there was a list, it wascalled the restricted list.
If you were on the restrictedlist, even if you got on the

(01:29:28):
bus, the security guards wouldwalk all the aisles of the bus
before it would leave theproperty, and they'd go through
each alley.
They knew they would knew everysingle person who was on the
restricted list, and they'd belike, Nope, you got to get off.
And the person would argue, belike, Well, what?
I finished my thing and it goes,you didn't get it approved by
the last person.
It's got to be approved beforeyou can go home.

(01:29:50):
This person may have not beenhome in nine months, and then
they want to go home and seetheir wife or their husband or
their whatever.
And then, no, you get pulled offthe bus.
So these people that are on thisrestricted list, there's no
place for them to live on theproperty.
And sometimes you could be onthe list for years that you

(01:30:11):
would were not allowed to leavethe property.
I remember, I think I might haveheld one of the world records.
I think it was like a year ortwo that I was restricted to the
property when I was in thecinematography department.
And because all of the scriptsthat L.
Run Hubbard ordered be writtenin the 1970s, I hadn't gotten it
done in the n in the 2000s.

(01:30:33):
So I wasn't allowed to leave theproperty until all these films,
like 50 films, had scriptswritten for them.
I was not allowed to leave theproperty.
So I lived in a I lived above ahallway in the film studio that
we worked in that was just, youknow, a hop, skip, and a jump.
And literally I had to climb upa wall that I would always leave

(01:30:54):
a sets ladder at.
And I would climb up this ladderinto this loft area and I would
sleep up there.
And I had a bed, an alarm clock.
I had a whole setup up there.
And um that's where I lived fora year.
But everybody like that has tofind their spot.
And Amy's spot was an electricalswitch there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:17):
I got a s I got assigned to the base, you know,
restricted to the base so manytimes.
So many times, you know, it's itwas just a punishment.
And the other thing is whenyou're talking about these
things about like the securityguard walking up and down the
bus and pulling people off andlike terrorizing the it's just
normal.
And it's not totally normal.

(01:31:37):
And you'll see it, you'll belike, Oh, there's you would see
you're in the culture of likeit's okay that the security
guard's doing that, or thatyou're being punished, or that
you're restricted to the base,or that you're sleeping in a mud
pile, or that it's just normalthere, you know, and you lose
all sense of actual reality andhuman rights and everything in
that sane asylum.

SPEAKER_06 (01:31:57):
Yeah, were you ever there?
I remember in the early dayswhen we'd get on the bus that a
list would be passed up and downthe aisles, and you had to write
your name on the list.
Do you remember that?
Did were you there when that hadto happen?

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:10):
Yes, you had to have your lit name on the list, and
you also had to have in yourback pocket the way to happiness
booklet.

SPEAKER_06 (01:32:16):
Yeah, it was literally it was like a secret
combination.
You had to have your way tohappiness book, and you had to
lit.
I'm telling this is not a joke.
It's just in the early 90s.
A piece of paper would bepassed.
You like each person would writetheir name on this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:32):
But I'm just blown away.
You had to have a way tohappiness in your back pocket.

SPEAKER_06 (01:32:36):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:37):
Everywhere you went.

SPEAKER_06 (01:32:38):
Everywhere you went, you would get checked.
It was like, do you have yourpapers?
And you would literally pull outyour you would pull out your way
to happiness book, and then youwould they would be like, Okay,
you're you're you're good to go.
Um this is not a joke.
Okay.
Everybody would put that in,right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Everybody would write their nameon the list.

(01:32:59):
Everybody would write their nameon the list.
It would go down one aisle ofthe bus, and then it would go
back up the other side of thebus, and then the list had to be
handed into the booth.
The booth would then look andlook on the list and see if any
of those people, because theydidn't have enough security
guards to go through all thesebuses, they would just everybody

(01:33:20):
would have a all the buses wouldsort of queue up and make their
lists, and then as the bus gotup to the guard the guard gate,
they'd hand the list over, andthen they would the security
guards would check.
Also, how they would know.
I mean, you've got people fromevery frickin' country and every
crack in the in the world, andthey're all cat scratching their
names on a list, and then thesecurity guards would check the

(01:33:44):
list against the restrictedlist, and hopefully they didn't
let anybody go home that was onthe list.
Because there would be times allthe time where these people had
who had been restricted to thelist for year, restricted to the
base, they'd sneak on that bus,and it would be the and then
security guard would be assignedlower conditions and then

(01:34:05):
everybody who hasn't slept issitting there waiting for this
to get sorted out, you know?

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:09):
Yeah, it's 11.
When you're telling a storyagain, again.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:18):
Oh, yeah, he said I did those lists.
Where is he?
Where is he?

SPEAKER_06 (01:34:21):
Oh what again?
What are the chances I'm tellinga story and the guy that did the
lists is in the chat?

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:29):
Hey hey Jackson.

SPEAKER_07 (01:34:31):
It's proof that there's nobody left there at the
end base because they're all inthe goddamn chat right now.
Okay.

SPEAKER_06 (01:34:39):
Anyway, yes.
So Jackson, Gary JacksonMoorhead, was the he was the
security chief for many years,or a security guard when he
wasn't the security chief.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:52):
Yeah.
For like 15 years.

SPEAKER_06 (01:34:54):
Yeah, so he knows everything that I'm saying.
He knows I'm telling you thefunny parts of it.
I'm making it ha ha.
La la la.
Um anyway, Gary, you know,there's a game I play, a little
game I play on my iPad, and umand there's a guy on there, I
think he might have been yourbrother, and his name is Craven.

(01:35:17):
Let's see if anybody gets that.
Anyway, okay.
Um let's let that one simmer fora little bit.
Gary Moorhead maybe had abrother called Craven.
Um anyway, um let's read thatthere.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:30):
Martin, Jesus Christ, listening to these
stories, I realized that life atthe Flagland Base was a walk in
the park compared to the goldbase.

SPEAKER_06 (01:35:37):
Oh it's all relative.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:39):
I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_06 (01:35:40):
Would you guys agree with that?
Oh, yeah.
Being worked anywhere else.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:45):
I mean, the flag land the RPF at the FLB was
paradise for me compared tobeing at the in base.
And what do you think?
I mean, he didn't dance when hewas kicked, he when he was
kicked off the in base.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:56):
I dance in the parking lot.
When I said you go into the RPF,you're off the base, you can't
come back.
I was like, woo! I started doingdancing in the parking lot.
Get me off of this place.
This place is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:07):
I I'd be willing to bet money that the single
largest element of it beingparadise is the absence of David
Miscavige.
Yes.

SPEAKER_06 (01:36:15):
Because when you were, and this is true, and
everybody will tell you this.
It was in the Sea Org, if youwere at the Int base, David
Miscavige would say, You're notgonna be so lucky that you just
get to go to the RPF.
Like so, as crazy and ashorrible as the RPF did, it's
horrible to be at the imp basemore than being on the RPF.

(01:36:39):
And if you got like the storywith Bruce, he got to go to
sleep for a few weeks while hewas in in Los Angeles on the
RPF, and then he got to like getsome exercise and he got to, he
was a different person when hecame back from just being gone
for a few weeks or months orwhatever it was.
So that's how horrible the impbase is, even as horrible as the

(01:37:02):
RPF is.
It's that much worse.
So, and but if you were inFlorida on the RPF and you were
doing your thing and it waslike, I'm awesome, if David
Miscavige came to Florida for amonth, it would start getting
crazy there too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:17):
Oh, yeah.
Crazy just followed him around.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:20):
Yeah, it would literally be he's the epicenter
of crazy.
That's why.

SPEAKER_06 (01:37:25):
Yeah, but but he is an agitator.
So when he comes into that areaand he says, why isn't this
done?
Why isn't that done?
Why doesn't that building, whydidn't you repaint that
building?
Why aren't the lawn why are thelawns an inch too long?
And then guess who gets to doall that?
The RPF is gets sent into asupersonic tsunami of nonsense

(01:37:46):
that they have to kind of havehit teams to do everything that
David Miscavige said that needsto be fixed.
And that it could be months, itcould be years before all those
things are done.
And then the RPF, it just has togo full blast on it until it's
all done.
They're essentially the flapcatchers.
They the anything that goeswrong, they're the ones that get

(01:38:07):
to fix it.
Because everybody else has likeregular jobs to do that don't
include doing that.
So, oh here.
So he was old techie was 10 dayson the RPF, and he says, so
good.

unknown (01:38:20):
So good.

SPEAKER_06 (01:38:22):
That's what I'm saying.
It's wild, guys.
So all the people that werelike, gosh, this RPF is
horrible.
The int base was worse thanbeing on the RPF for most of the
people that work there.
There's not a lot of people.
There's a few people in maybethe accounts department or in
certain kind of non-pressurezones of that.

(01:38:43):
And every once in a while they'dcatch, they'd catch their own
little tsunami too.
When David Miscavige findssomething misfiled and they have
to go through 50 million foldersand make sure everything's
perfect again and blah, blah,blah.
But uh it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:57):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:58):
Crazy, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:00):
Okay, let's do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:00):
One of the things one of the things I'll just
quickly say, um, one of thethings that were implemented on
the flag RPF when I was on itwas this thing called a final
assessment, which is aconcoction that was drawn up by
David Miscavige where you hadto, it's a mixture of different
technologies.
Um, and you had to likebasically, you know, have a

(01:39:22):
floating TA through the wholefloating tone arm, like perfect,
you know, no twitches on youre-meter the whole time.
And it's things about evilpurposes on David Miscavige and
everything like this, and youand no one can get through it.
So you just never could get offthe RPF.
And I I did a whole submissionwhen I was down there because I
was made the bosun of the RPF,so I was in charge, and no one
can get through this assessment,and it's a complete piece of

(01:39:43):
crap.
So I did this submission of whatto do to handle that, and it was
approved by the senior casesupervisor office and forwarded
to David Miscavige, who thenassigned those people who
approved it to the RPF.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:57):
Oh my gosh.
Because they forward it to him.

SPEAKER_06 (01:40:01):
The irony.
Hey, we want to get people offthe RPF faster.
We got to stop doing nonsense,and then it's like, okay, you
guys get to go to the RPF too.
You approve this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:10):
Crazy, crazy.
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 (01:40:12):
I gotta put this thing up with Gary, and then
we'll put up a few comments andthen we'll wrap this up.
Yeah, he says.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:17):
Gary Jackson, remember the welcome back, sir,
fanfare crap we used to do forthat effort.

SPEAKER_06 (01:40:24):
Yeah, maybe.
When he was coming back to theproperty from snowmobiling in
Alaska with Tom Chris, um thenhe would come back to the
property and we would line uplike the presidents arriving,
and it would be like, oh, lookat and that every gray blade of

(01:40:45):
grass was perfect, and all theentire base had been white
gloved for three weeks nonstop,and we finished this building
and we finished this project andwe finished this tape series.
It would be like, look at allthe things we did.
So please don't beat us, pleasedon't torture us anymore.
And then invariably, half of thepeople that did something, it

(01:41:09):
would be, oh, you did it wrong,or you did this, and oh, it's
screwed up, it needs to beredone.
You guys, I can't, you guyscan't do anything.

SPEAKER_05 (01:41:16):
I can never leave here.
How am I gonna go snowballmealing with Tom in Alaska if
I've got to be here with youguys all the time?

SPEAKER_06 (01:41:24):
Anyway, it's insanity.
Yes, Gary, thank you.
Um, there Angel Cat something.
Angel Cat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:32):
Thank you for the super sticker, Angel Cat.

SPEAKER_06 (01:41:35):
Yeah, thanks, guys.
Okay, anything else?
Let's do um we do the shout-outsat the end because uh um we that
we try to make people stay tillthe end.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:42):
But um Angela, hi all from the south of France,
where it's 8 41 p.m.
Love Angela.
Nice, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_06 (01:41:49):
Yes, awesome.
Um let's see if we've gotanybody else.
Oh, I don't see any more.
Oh, here they are.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:55):
Sherry, greetings from Moorhead, Minnesota.

SPEAKER_06 (01:41:58):
That's hilarious.
Gary gets that.
Moorhead, Sherry, and Minnesota.
It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:05):
Um Mary Kay, hi from Albuquerque.
Thanks for joining us.
Uh Poodlebone, hello from NewYork City.
Becky, good evening, all.
So excited to hear from Mark,Claire, Matt, and Amy.
Yes, thank you, Matt and Amy,for joining us.
We we miss chatting with you.
It's always um fun andreflective, and I will say I

(01:42:26):
always learn something new.

SPEAKER_07 (01:42:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:28):
Something new.
Same with us with you.
Yes.
Old Techie, we got a day offwhen we finished the music
studio.
Saw Top Gun.
Oh, the irony.
Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_07 (01:42:40):
Oh my gosh.
Little would they know yearslater he would be their arch
enemy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:45):
Yes, Jason says the the RPF concept was stolen by
Hubbard from the U.S.
Navy's restriction policy.
Try Google searching it.
I was in the U.S.
Navy.
Yes, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 (01:42:56):
I've heard about this, that a lot of the even I
saw a movie the other day, Idon't remember which movie it
was, but it had a flashback toearly wartime.
And they had a thing called theit was either called the duties
chart or something like that,and it was dymo labels that
would show the wholeorganization of the military

(01:43:18):
unit.
And it it's just how what theorc board is in Scientology.
I had no idea that that was juststolen wholesale from.

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:26):
Oh no, completely.
Even the concept of, you know,in in Scientology organization
policy, um, you cannot have anorg structure that requires that
you have more than five peopleunderneath you, right?

SPEAKER_06 (01:43:39):
Five people directly.
Directly, that's report to you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:43):
That exact concept I read about in trauma and um
gosh, now I'm blanking on thename of the book.
Um anyway, the the book about umPTSD, they came up with that
number of five when they weredoing studies on desertions in
the military, and they foundthat if you keep them with uh
units of five, they're far lesslikely to desert because they're

(01:44:07):
loyal to those that they workwith.
Yes, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 (01:44:12):
That's insanity.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:13):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:44:14):
Wow.
Okay, oh, look at this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:17):
Uh one love, it's always a pleasure to see Amy and
Matt.
I missed the channel.
Yes.

SPEAKER_06 (01:44:23):
Nice.
Okay, this is a question for youguys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:26):
Do you get a fancy diploma too if you successfully
complete the rehabilitationproject for us like those OTs
get?

SPEAKER_07 (01:44:34):
No diplomas?
No.
Uh no diplomas.

SPEAKER_03 (01:44:37):
Not even a certificate of completion.
What you have to do when youfinish and your graduation um
submission is approved, like youhave to submit like all your
folders and everything with awhole completion showing how
every aspect of your life hasbeen made pure.
And um, once that's approved bythe powers that be, and it takes

(01:44:58):
a long time and it takesforever, um, then you go back to
your organization or anorganization that they traded
you to, um, and you have to geteverybody to sign a liability
formula.
Like so that's the first thing.

SPEAKER_06 (01:45:14):
That's the first thing when you've done this
thing, could have been for twoyears, could have been for 10
years.
As soon as you're done withthat, now you have to get out,
you have to go through thesepunishment stages of the group
that you're trying to get backinto.
Because you were in the evilgroup with the RPF people, and
now you've graduated from that,but you have to get the

(01:45:36):
permission to rejoin the group.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:38):
Unbelievable.
And you and you and basicallyevery member you have to get
assigned hundreds of people.

SPEAKER_06 (01:45:44):
You have to get it says you have to get a a
majority approval, or you haveto get approval from a majority
of the group.
So in Golden Era Productions,depending on the crew size, it
was like literally, I think itwas like you had to get like 66
and a and a and a sixth, youknow, pr pr th a third of the uh

(01:46:05):
two-thirds of the crew or Idon't remember what it was in
gold, but it was like it wasalways like if there was 350
people in gold, it was sort ofgenerally agreed that you have
to get at least 300 signaturesto get out a liability.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:21):
Yeah, and it's not like you could go around during
your day to get them to signthat you'd have to be meal time.
Yeah, during meal time.
So yeah, I mean I remember a fewtimes it would take like two or
three weeks of you just wouldskip meals just so you could
pass out your formula and youknow, and I always you're like
finally getting 15 minutes toeat and you've got four people's

(01:46:41):
liability for a week.

SPEAKER_06 (01:46:42):
I was just gonna say that.
There's like it's like, andsometimes you'd see a formula
like, oh dude, you didn't haveto do Ben her the formula, dude.

SPEAKER_07 (01:46:50):
Like, Jesus.
I've only got eight minutes leftto like get everything done, and
you that's like 10 pages long.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:57):
And by the way, you'd think that, well, hey,
with a 15-minute bus ride towhere we were sleeping, that you
could pass them out then.
But no, because that would beout security, you have the
property.

SPEAKER_06 (01:47:11):
One of these liability formulas would have
sometimes the people would haveyou you have to basically, in
the formula, the way it'swritten, it's a it's a
specifically laid-out set ofsteps that L.
Ron Hubbard wrote, and all ofthe conditions of existence
formulas have these, but inliability, it's basically like
you have to tell everybody whyyou were a shithead.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:32):
It's one, decide who are one's friends.

SPEAKER_06 (01:47:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:35):
Two, deliver an effective blow to the enemy of
the group.

SPEAKER_07 (01:47:38):
You look at old three, make a cyborg over here
knows them by heart.

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:42):
Cyborg.
Wow, thanks, honey.

SPEAKER_07 (01:47:45):
Yeah, a cybot, assigned to the city.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:48):
Step four is um ask for permission to rejoin the
group by majority.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:47:54):
So you have to get all those, but you have to
basically tell the whole storyof like, I got assigned
liability because I'm a fuckedart, whatever.
And then you have to say, andthen you have to say, I w I did
this and I did this.
You have to basically suck up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:08):
On the amends, though, it says you have to you
have to make up the damage onehas done by you know, but it
says despite personality.
Despite personal danger, yeah tothe group you've been pretending
to be a part of, despitepersonal danger.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:21):
So you have to stay in there how you delivered
effective blow to yourself,yeah, how and how it was
personal, personally dangerousand all that.
Oh my god, it's so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 (01:48:31):
I had to clean up a toilet in the lodges because I
had destroyed that toilet manytimes before, and it was very
personally dangerous because thetoilet and I were enemies.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:43):
No, but the amount of times that people would say,
Oh, you know, I stayed up allnight and I did this and I did
this, and uh, you know, anyway,whatever.

SPEAKER_06 (01:48:51):
But but the crazy part of this is that you have to
air all this out to every singleperson in the entire
organization, and then they getto decide if it's this or if
it's this.
Because if you don't get the 300signatures, you can't get out of
the condition.
You're locked you're stuck.
And so some people that weresort of prickly all the time,

(01:49:14):
they would have a hard timegetting everybody to sign for
them because you're like, dude,every time I interact with you,
you're the biggest a-hole in theworld.
I ain't signing shit.
And in fact, if they were a realuh uh prickly guy, you would it
at the bottom of it it saidapproved to join the re the
group, it would say approved anddisapproved.

(01:49:35):
And people would be like, Screwyou, Timmy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:49:38):
I hate you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:49:39):
You know, so but it was literally disapproved.

SPEAKER_06 (01:49:42):
You would literally have to somebody with a yeah,
you'd have to suck up toeverybody and be like this.
And you and in order to get 300signatures, you almost had to
pass out three hundred copies ofyour thing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:54):
Yeah, and but also because anyone el anyone else
that was also in a lowercondition, they were not quite.
Qualified.
Oh yeah, they're off the list.

SPEAKER_06 (01:50:02):
Right.
Well, I remember at those timesit'd be like, you only have to
get 100 signatures becausethere's 200 people in lower
conditions.
Yeah, whatever it is, you youget it, you get you get cut a
break.

SPEAKER_04 (01:50:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:50:15):
But and then there were times where the entire
property was assigned thecondition, but we weren't
allowed to ever it was a it wasa weird thing, right?
Because it was a catch-22,because the entire property was
signed a condition of liability.
So how can you get back into thegroup if the whole group is in
liability?
Yeah.
And so it was basically a waythat David Miscavige should

(01:50:38):
could short circuit the systemso that everybody would always
stay in lower conditions becausethere was no technically way
that you could get out of lowerconditions because there was no
group to rejoin.
It's it was it is the biggestmind F in the world at that
place.

SPEAKER_03 (01:50:54):
He also did it as organizational conditions, like
like CMO Congress Messenger OrgInternational is in a condition
of confusion, and so you can'tget out of it until he approves
it, and he's not gonna approveit because you're still in
confusion.
And so you we're just always uhyou know under punishment and
penalty and whatever.

SPEAKER_06 (01:51:13):
Totally.

SPEAKER_03 (01:51:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (01:51:15):
Well, uh Catherine, thank Catherine.
One of the wrenches in the chat.
Thank you, Catherine.
She says Dave Jong un.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:21):
Yes, completely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 (01:51:24):
Um, okay, guys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:26):
I think we'll wrap it up.
We've taken enough of your time.
It's always such a pleasure tohave you both.
And um anyway, we reallyappreciate your insights and for
joining us.

SPEAKER_06 (01:51:36):
If you guys uh if you want to give uh Matt and Amy
a shout out in the comments, I Iput them up while the end ed and
uh outro is playing.
Yes.
So you guys can get yourcomments up in the video.
Yes.
But um thank you, thank you toeverybody who watched until the
end.
And hey, there's a ton of peoplethat watch that aren't
subscribed.
We I think we're almost about30, we're in the high 30,000s.

(01:52:00):
We're trying to get up to 40,000eventually.
So if you're in there, um jam,jam a like and subscribe.
And you can also hype videosnow, I'm told.
Oh, there's a hype button.

SPEAKER_01 (01:52:11):
Oh, well, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 (01:52:13):
Hype it up.
This was a good one.
We got to tell lots of storiesabout the RPF and give you a
good kind of idea how crazy itis and how crazy the property is
and and the whole thing.
Scientology, the C org, it's allnuts.

SPEAKER_02 (01:52:27):
Crazy, crazy.
I'm just so grateful.

SPEAKER_03 (01:52:29):
Yes, yes, go ahead.
I just want to say I saw a lotof your comments and um you
know, with nice wishes andeverything for me and Matt.
And I just thank you so much forthat.
I wanted to acknowledge everyone of you.
Um, thank you for that.
And I also wanted to say todaywe went to war with Iran, and so
I pray for the protection of allcivilians and the rapid end of

(01:52:53):
this war and our troops broughthome safely.
Absolutely.
I just wanted to say thatbecause it's right in our face
right now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:00):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 (01:53:02):
Awesome, guys.
Okay, thank you.
We will see you next time.
Bye.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:07):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 (01:53:10):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have Hail Xenu.
Zenu is my homeboy and BFGbranded mouse pads, shirts,
mugs, all sorts of other stuffin there that helps us to bring
you new content on a regularbasis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good Behind

(01:53:32):
the Iron Curtain of Scientology,in hardback, Kindle, and Audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or youcould click on this one here, or

(01:53:53):
you can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal Weekly

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Scientology’s “Rehabilitation Project Force” Breaks People And Why We Fought Back

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal Weekly

All Episodes

How Scientology’s “Rehabilitation Project Force” Breaks People And Why We Fought Back

Stuff You Should Know