June 24, 2026 • 56 mins
One day you’re “clearing the planet.” The next, you’re staring at a rental car door asking yourself if you can really walk away from everything you’ve been trained to fear. Claire Headley sits down with Ann Gollert Hill for part two of Scientology Stories, and Ann lays out the chain of events that turns long-term disillusionment into a real escape from the Sea Org.
We dig into what life feels like inside Scientology’s power structure, from Golden Era Productions and Int Base-style control to the punishing churn of the Basics campaign at Flag in Clearwater. Ann shares how violence, humiliation, and rigged tests keep people compliant, including being forced into degrading “ethics” consequences when leadership decides you are the day’s target. Then comes the moment so many former members recognize: opening OT III and feeling something internal snap, as if the whole belief system suddenly reads differently.
From there, the story becomes both terrifying and deeply human. Ann explains the quiet lifeline that mattered most: steady, nonjudgmental contact with her mom, and the simple truth that you cannot argue someone out of a high-control group but you can make yourself a safe place to land. Her breaking point hits after being screamed at for seeing her family, leading to a ten-hour decision, a letter left behind, and a drive into the unknown while watching the rearview mirror. Her brother Al helps her disappear across the country in his truck, buying her time to breathe, sleep, and start recovering from religious trauma.
If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people searching for Scientology, Sea Org, OT III, and cult recovery stories can find it.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Hello, and welcome back to the channel.
I'm your host for today, ClaireHeadley.
And today we will be umdiscussing part two of
Scientology Stories with my dearfriend and amazing uh now, let's
see, whistleblower, uh activist,Scientology exposer of abuse,
(00:49):
Ann Gollert Hill.
Welcome to the show, Anne.
Welcome back.
Let's expose.
Yes, let's get to it.
So so amazing.
I so thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation from part one.
Um, I will link to that in thevideo description.
So if you're tuning in for thefirst time and just meeting Anne
(01:09):
for the first time, stop rightnow and go back and watch part
one.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Yeah, you got to get the juicy details.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Yes, exactly.
Um, my gosh, that hour just flewby.
And and to reiterate what Isaid, uh what we discussed in
part one, um, you have a bookcoming up, you've been um
posting on TikTok, you have aSubstack, there's all kinds of
ways to follow Ann's story, andI'm just so grateful to have
(01:39):
your voice in this space.
So thank you again.
I'm so grateful to be in thisspace.
It took a long time for me toget here.
Yes, and it takes all of us along time to get here, frankly.
Um yeah, I mean, I can stillremember the first time that I
went to do film a documentaryand there were private
investigators out on the street,right?
(02:00):
It was scary.
I was like, oh my gosh, whathave I got myself into here?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Right?
I remember once I was having uhlunch with Ron and Becky
Miscavige because they were inthe area and I hadn't seen them
in forever.
And it was right after the wholeincident had happened with you
know, David uh saying if hedies, he dies, you know, that
whole incident.
Yes, yes, what became his book.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
I'll I'll add the link in the description.
Tony Ortega did an article aboutthat.
But yes, Ron Miscavige Sr., hisson David Miscavige had private
investigators following him forso it was really fun.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
It was so much fun to have lunch and have all the
cars going by.
And we're like, oh, there'sthere's one, there's one.
There's one over there.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Oh my gosh, we we have stories for days.
We we'll probably we'll probablyhave to do a follow-up just in
Scientology nonsense, right?
You've against yeah, I mean,I've you reminded me of a time
in 2009.
So our kids were three and one.
We were living in Burbank,California.
We went and had lunch with AmyScobie and Matt Pesh, and we
(03:04):
came back and we had literallyan OSA film crew on our front
yard with a you know, the soundboom, the camera.
We're like, we had lunch at aMexican restaurant.
Like, what is wrong with youpeople?
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Wow.
They're just, you know, theythink they can shut you up, but
they can't anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
I know.
I oh, speaking of which, I knowstories like this, again, not
not to uh not to overstep mywelcome, but we should do a
follow-up because do you knowthis past week um Scientology
submitted an amicus brief in theDanny Masterson case?
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:41):
And like a huge portion of it is attacking me,
comparing me to an anti-Catholicdefrocked nun.
I'm sorry.
That is hilarious, really.
But but my the the part that'sso outrageous to me is they say
I would not leave them alone.
(04:03):
I'm like, just get out.
Are you kidding me right now?
I wouldn't leave you alone.
The only reason I'm I even gotover my in like life-threatening
fear of speaking out againstthese bullies is because of they
wouldn't leave me alone.
(04:23):
Exactly.
Come on, anyway, whatever.
Not not to that'll be anothertopic.
Yes, exactly.
But back to today.
So in our last episode, we gotto, you know, you're you're
you're now working in marketingat Golden Era Productions, Int
Base, whatever, Supermax, akathe 500-acre compound in Gilman
(04:48):
Hot Springs, California.
Supermax is weird, maybe right,exactly.
Actually, Supermax seems likevacation, like a leave of
absence compared to that, right?
Indeed.
Um, so you're starting to becomedisillusioned.
You, David Miscavige's ummicromanaging everything that
you're doing.
Yep.
But I would like to first, ifyou don't mind, kind of walk
(05:10):
through your the unraveling fromyour perspective.
Like what started happening,what was your thought process,
what was going through yourmind?
Um, and then we'll get to yourescape.
The best part.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
I know.
So the unraveling, that's aninteresting way to put it
because it happens so slowly,you don't really realize it's
happening, but little thingswill happen and it snaps you out
just temporarily, and you go,Whoa, what was that?
That's not what I've beenlearning and reading.
And who who like I'll give youan example.
(05:46):
I mean, everybody knows thestory.
Well, most people do.
If they're watching thischannel, they know the story of
you know, Miss Scavage jumpingacross the table and beating up
Jeff Hawkins when he was, youknow, and I was right next to
him when this happened.
SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
And we were all just like yes, sorry, let me insert
because my favorite um line froma movie that to me perfectly
describes that scenario.
If you've ever seen Elf, it'swhen he goes, Ooh, he's a South
Pole elf.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
It's exactly like Elf running across the table.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that incident was a littleshocking because I think that
was the first time I saw him hitsomebody.
I mean, there were more timesafter that, but that was just my
first experience with it.
Um and what sorry, what whatyear was this approximately?
Oh early 90s.
(06:41):
Like I don't remember what yearthat was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Early 90s.
Maybe you mean early 2000s?
Because you got to the base in1993, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Yeah.
It might have been early 2000s.
It might have been good.
Because we'd work for like we'dwork, I'd I'd been there maybe
10 years before I saw him hitanybody.
I mean I got hit by otherpeople, but not him.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Who who did you get hit by?
Oh, oh, this is a good story.
Okay.
So I mean, not that getting hitby somebody is no.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
So I was so in various stages I was in charge
of different things because youknow though they tried everybody
on the marketing executive post.
They tried to put everybody onthat post.
And I was on that post for avery short time.
Uh, and while I was I was theperson who recommended me for
(07:44):
that position was Lisa Schroer.
Lisa Schroer is one of thepeople I think about most
unfondly when I think back tothat base.
She was not a nice person, andshe did whatever Miss Scavage
wanted her to do.
And there and she became likehim.
I, you know, certain executiveswould kind of become like him.
(08:07):
They emulated him because Iguess they figured it would keep
them in his good graces.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
And yeah, and I think you know, you know, the
saying like absolute power or uhabsolute power corrupts
absolutely.
Right.
Um, I I think that personally, Ithink that's a part of it too,
because there's a there you'reright.
Uh to me, there are twocategories of people.
There were the people that weredid what they had to do to
(08:35):
survive.
Yep.
And there were people thatrevelled in, you know, like they
they're like the snake in thegrass, and they would enjoy
seeing other people down andtake every opportunity to, you
know, make it worse.
That's that's just how I viewit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
I think that's a really good assessment.
And she was one of those people,right?
And I was standing with her inthe middle of marketing, and she
was mad at me for something Ididn't do.
I don't know.
And she was sitting standingnext to somebody who I won't
name, but I thought was a reallygood friend of mine.
And she said to this person,take her out in the hall and
(09:16):
slap her hard across the face.
So she did.
She walks me out in the hall,right?
And she looks at me and shesays, I'm sorry, I have to do
this.
Bam! And I was shocked, but Iwasn't, it wasn't the pain of
this, it was the pain ofthinking that she would choose
(09:37):
me over the organization, andshe didn't.
And that really got me thinkinglike, hmm, this is interesting.
You know, that was one of thosethings where it kind of snapped
me out temporarily, but then youjustify it all.
I must have done something todeserve this because that's what
they tell you.
I pulled it in, right?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yep.
The adop indoctrination thatmake means that eventually
you're doing the work for themof keeping you in, right?
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They they weren't doing, theydidn't have to do anything.
Yeah.
I just went I mean, aside fromyou were trapped in Supermax and
you know, besides besides that,you had no car, you couldn't
(10:18):
drive out the door, but youknow, those are little things.
But but then you say potato, Isay potato, whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
But then so this went on for a while, and then
eventually, um in 2003, a teamof us went to Flag in
Clearwater, and we were there towork on the basics campaign,
these Scientology basic booksthat was a big deal.
(10:46):
You know, everybody was like onI don't know, pins and needles,
tenter hooks, you know, likewell, this has got to get done,
or it's gotta get done right,and nothing was getting done
right.
So Miss Gavage takes this smallgroup of people.
Me, Dan Kuhn, uh Lisa Schroerwas there, Helen Pinder.
Remember Helen?
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Yes, I remember Helen.
SPEAKER_01 (11:07):
And uh who else was there?
Jeff Hawkins.
And we were all, he brought usall to Clearwater, and he
brought us into a conferenceroom and he said, Okay, so we've
got to get this done.
And here's what we're gonna do.
I am going to give you guys anassignment every single day.
(11:28):
And if you do the assignmentright, you're good.
If you don't, you're here.
Meaning offloaded onto the flagland base.
Now, for somebody who's anint-based staff member, that is
a fate worse than death.
Right.
Right.
I don't know how to describe howscary that was.
(11:48):
Right.
But you understand.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I do.
I do.
I would liken it to hmm.
It to me, I would say it'salmost would be worse than being
expelled altogether fromScientology, personally.
That's right.
Um, because it would be done insuch a way that um everybody
(12:12):
knows you failed.
Um very degrading.
Right, completely degrading, andthere's no worse punishment than
ending up in David Miscavige'slittle black book.
That's how I that's how I wouldI would just to add to your
commentary without you askingfor it.
No, I agree though.
SPEAKER_01 (12:32):
And honestly, uh, I don't think he, you know, he was
always out for me from thebeginning.
I was too I was too happy forhim.
I don't think he liked it atall.
No, I was too cheerful.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
He didn't like um he didn't like anybody that showed
emotion that wasn't completesubmission, and uh, you know,
like um, I mean, but again, itexplains to me why you also
sometimes rose up but then felldown.
Yeah.
Um that's what happened.
(13:06):
The way I describe it from Markis Mark was always either on top
of the world or underneath it.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
You're either in his good gracesor his shit graces, and it's
really just a matter of the dayand his mood and what's going
on.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Right.
So this one day, we'd been therefor three days and we'd all
gotten everything done we weresupposed to get done.
This fourth day, he said, Okay,every single one of you has to
go and sell a lecture series toa Scientologist who's here on
services.
Now understand, all these peoplehave already spent tens of
thousands of dollars to do theirservices at Flag.
(13:42):
And I was just supposed to walkthrough uh the uh organization
and find somebody in a waitingroom who was waiting for their
auditing session and sell them a$700 lecture series, right?
And he said, Every single one ofyou has to do this because I
want to see that you really cansell these things.
Yep, right?
So I tried and I only had anhour.
We only had an hour, and Ididn't succeed, and so he brings
(14:09):
us all back in the room.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Wait, okay, go ahead.
Go ahead, no ask questions.
No, no, no, I'm dying, I'mdying.
Go, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
So he brings us all back in the room and he starts
pointing, goes to Jeff.
Did you sell Lexra series?
Yes, sir.
Dan, yes, sir, uh, Lisa, yes,sir, me, no, sir, Helen, no,
sir.
You two out.
He sent he's that was it.
We were done.
We were off post and he sent usto um he had Jenny Linson take
(14:35):
Jenny Linson take us to uh thegalley, right?
And scrub the floors with atoothbrush for hours upon hours
upon hours upon hours, and thenI was in the dish room for
months after that, and I was,you know, persona non grata,
let's just say.
And it was really interestingthough, because at first I was
(14:57):
so upset.
But the more I got away from allof it and just was doing dishes
and la ha ha, laughing andhaving fun, and yeah, my hands
ached, but it was so mucheasier, right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
And then I thought you were just working, and I
know you you remind me of thetimes that I used to long to be
busted to grounds or somethingbecause I'd be happy just
cutting grass, and and you knowhow they would always say, Oh,
if you leave, you're gonna beyou're just gonna be flipping
burgers the rest of your life.
(15:30):
It's I I know, and I'm like, Iwould love to cook burgers.
You know what's really funny?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
That's actually in my book because I talk about
that like frankly, flippingburgers at McDonald's is way
better than working with him.
Right.
It would have been a much betteridea.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Oh my god.
Okay, but hold on, hold on.
I have to ask you.
So do you and you may not knowthe answer to this.
So Jeff, Lisa, Dan all said yes,sir.
Do you know if they actuallydid, or were they just lying?
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
It was all oh, Jeff told me this later, and so did
Dan.
It was all set up.
What?
Yeah.
So uh what's his name?
I forget.
He used to work for authorservices, and then he was
working in David Bloomberg.
Yes.
So he set up those guys so theyactually had people they could
(16:25):
sell lectures to.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
Get out.
I'm I I will get out.
No, I know, no, no, no, no, no,no.
I I'm just mind-blown.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Like, and he they told me this later.
I'm like, well, that makes sensebecause how does anybody do that
in an hour?
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
Right.
Especially as you said, withpeople who've already spent tens
of thousands, probably hundredsof thousands of dollars to get
there.
People in at Flag on servicesare not there to buy lectures.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
No, yeah.
So, anyway, that's whathappened.
And Helen and I were in the dishroom for a long time.
Uh until and Jenny Linson wouldcome every day, right?
She would walk through the youknow, the mess hall back to the
dish room.
So, are you done?
Are you done being you know, outethics?
(17:16):
Are you done with your evilpurposes?
I'm like, I guess.
unknown (17:21):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
I didn't know.
Okay.
So I figured I was just gonna bein the dish room for the rest of
my Sea Org career, and actuallythat was okay.
I was having fun.
Uh, but then she came in one dayand called me to her office and
said, Okay, are you done withyour shit?
And I said, uh, oh yeah.
Well, you gotta go do themagazine, the source magazine
(17:43):
for flag, because they hadbrought it in, they had uh were
trying to do it in-house becauseI wasn't at it to do any
magazines, right?
So they tried they were tryingto do it in-house and it had
taken them, they were on it fora month and it wasn't done.
She says, Go in there and and dothe magazine.
I walked in and I did itovernight.
And Debbie, I I remember thisDebbie Cook, who was the head of
(18:07):
flag, right?
She walks in and she says,You're here to do the magazine?
I said, Yep.
And she said, Wow, you came fromheaven.
I said, Yeah, via the dish room.
Anyway, so then I was there, andoh, then things got great for me
(18:28):
for a little while because atFlagstill at that time, things
she was running things, she wasin charge, she really was, and
she ran things a whole differentway than Miscavige did, and she
was very much into rewarding youfor you know doing good work,
and I got lots of rewards.
Um, I would go to staff meetingand they'd talk about the
(18:50):
magazine, how it went out, andthe and the income went up six
weeks later or whatever.
You know, it's some statisticthat Hubbard said, and this was
because of me, and thousandpeople would be upstanding and
cheering for me.
I'm like, Where am I?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
They're like, wow, seriously, worlds apart from uh
the years of how you'd lived uptill that point in in the mark
in the marketing division ofGolden Era Productions.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
Yeah, but unfortunately, uh, I mean, I
would I did fine, I was doinggreat, but then a bunch of
people came down from IntManagement to work on the
basics, and this was about forthe for the year before I left.
And one of those people, uh,well, Lisa Schroer was there
(19:34):
when Henning, you know, and theywould just look at me side eye,
the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
But Henning Bendorf was the art director, and then
that turned into some executivepost, even though it wasn't an
executive post because he wasone of David Miscavige's
favorite pets, right?
And he was also he was probablythe human embodiment of an
adder, like you know, thepoisonous snakes quiet, and then
(20:03):
you'd see an evil streak fromhim, like nothing you've ever
seen.
SPEAKER_01 (20:07):
Incredible, it's so so true.
But one of the people that wasthere during this time was Diana
Hubbard, and she'd always likeme.
And she came up to me and she'slike, What are you doing here?
Why aren't you?
You should be back on the base.
You really should be back there,and that I went boom! No, I'll
never go back there.
(20:27):
I didn't say that, of course,because you can't say those
things, but inside I was like, Inever I'm going back there
because I had seen thedifference, right?
Yep, but unfortunately, the basestarted creeping more and more
into Flag the whole the way thatit was that they did things, and
the executive director Harvey,he was like a little mini
(20:49):
miscavage, he became very tiredtyrannical.
Harvey Jakes.
Yeah, yep.
And I was like, hmm, I see thewriting on the wall, but even
then I did not leave.
But here's when it reallychanged when I did OT3.
First of all, getting to do OT3in the Sea Org is almost
(21:10):
impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Yeah, so so walk me through that.
I I started watching your TikTokvideo about this, and I was
like, damn, I didn't know thatyou did OT3.
So let's hear that story.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
So that was because of Debbie Cook, because um I had
gone clear on my clearances.
I think I told you that already.
Yes, you did.
So um basically, because I wasso productive, um, I got to
start my um solo auditing foryou know OT123.
(21:43):
Um, so I got to have sleep andeverything.
It was, I mean, really, I wasdoing I was happy.
I was happy at at FLAG.
Things were going great.
And I got through OT1, I gotthrough it two, and then I
opened then I did OT three and Iopened the pack.
Do you know I was out threemonths later?
(22:04):
The minute I started readingthat, something inside me went,
What?
I spent almost 20 years of mylife for this.
Right.
And I know I'm not the only onewho feels that way.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
No, everybody I've ever talked to, myself included,
uh that was a moment of like,what the AH?
Um, like Mark and I have talkedthis, talked about this story
many times.
Like we were living in KansasCity in an apartment and he
started watching the South Parkepisode.
Ah.
(22:39):
And uh, which by the way, notI'm embarrassed, but not ashamed
to admit that I was still tooafraid and to even watch at so
he was watching out in theliving room and I was just like,
I'm gonna read my book.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Uh yeah, because you've been told so many times
that people will die if they seethis information.
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Well, yeah, but it was not so much in that moment
for me.
I was I was OT5.
Um Oh, right.
That's right.
Yeah.
So for me, it was more about Iwas holding out hope to someday
be able to speak to my family.
And I felt like watching SouthPark would be like the line in
the sand.
And that was off the table.
I mean, it is off the table, andI'm I'm at peace with that.
(23:24):
But at that time, I was stillholding on to that hope.
But so Mark watches South Parkand he looks over at me.
And again, I was, you know, inthe middle of OT5, then
undeclared, clear, and put backon net, but that's a whole other
story.
Oh boy, fun.
Um and he was like, is this forreal?
This Zenu?
This this can't be real.
(23:46):
I'm like, oh yeah, it's real.
Anyway, go ahead.
Go ahead.
And and I've always said to me,it's the most elaborate example
of the Emperor's new clothes,especially the OT levels.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yes, yeah, incredible.
And then when I got out and thenI read about the other OT levels
and where you end up, no wonder,no matter so no wonder so many
people who reach OT8 get sick.
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Yeah, or or or reach the end phenomena of
Scientology, which is leavingScientology.
Right.
That is the end phenomena.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Yay.
I read I just happened to reachit earlier.
Yes, but good for you.
So I I did OT3, and of course Idid all the processes because
that's what you do.
Yep.
And then um I just had thislittle, it seems like everything
I was looking at it from adifferent lens at that point.
(24:38):
So anything that would happenthat was uh upsetting, like or
somebody would yell at me, whichwas every day, or you know, the
RTC rep would come in and tellme how suppressive I was because
I didn't have a marketingcampaign done.
And there were, I I think therewere about three or four times
after Thursday at two.
(24:58):
I literally walked out the backdoor because there you could,
but then I turned around andcame back.
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
Wow.
So you were like, I'm out ofhere, and then like, oh,
actually, maybe not.
Yeah, where am I gonna go?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
No money, no vehicle, no phone.
We didn't have phones, right?
Where was we gonna go?
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
I had no hotel, and I'm willing to bet you'd had no
contact or very little, if any,supervised contact with your
family outside of Scientology.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Well, this is the other interesting part.
Oh, you're gonna like this one.
So my parents, I hadn't hadcontact with them for 14 years,
right?
When I was at Int, um, andbefore.
But um when I was at Flag, theylive only 50 miles from
Clearwater here in Rome.
Yeah.
So which where I live now,they're both past since then,
(25:53):
but I got a chance to see thembecause they came to Clearwater
to see me, right?
And I it was nice.
They none, they never, ever,ever once said to me, You're in
a cult, you have to leave, youneed to come with us right now.
They didn't do that.
(26:13):
Yeah, because they were smartand they knew that if they said
that to me, I would just dig myfeet in, and they were proving
me, and I probably just don'twant to talk to them ever again,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
You wouldn't, and nor would you be allowed to.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
I wouldn't be allowed to, yes.
But what nobody knew, well, theyknow now because I've talked
about it and it's also in thebook, is that um we had a phone
line in the marketing buildingbecause the marketing building
was separate from the rest ofthe organization.
It was little, it was a littlekind of small building across
from where this they werebuilding the superpower
(26:46):
building, and it was its ownlittle entity, and it had an
outside phone line becausevendors had to be able to call
us, and the plot thickens, and Igave my mom the number, nice,
and she would call me once aweek for four years, once a
week, and she would say Molly,and did nobody notice?
(27:10):
Well, my juniors knew, but theywere doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Oh, we in Scientology, this is called a
case of mutual outrudiments,i.e., we're all doing it, so
let's just not report it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Exactly, and that's the only time that happens,
yeah, right.
Otherwise, it would have beenreported on way before, but they
wanted to do it too, so I didn'tcare.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
And if any one of them had gotten in trouble, they
would have eventually spilledthe bean.
So, so wait, so for four years,you were talking to your mom
every week.
I'm buttons.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
Well, or every other week.
Okay, right.
Amazing.
Every time she'd call me, I knowthat was what helped the most.
When she would call me, she'dsay, Hi, honey, how are you
doing?
Good, how's the marketing going?
Great.
Um, she would ask me somequestions, she would never talk
about Scientology.
You know, we'd love to see youif you ever have a chance to
come see us.
(28:05):
That'd be great.
I love you.
Click.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
I love your mom.
Rest in peace.
I'm sorry you lost her, but shesounds amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
She was 99, but she was amazing.
Wow.
She was amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
And uh um, so I knew always that I had a safe place
to go.
Yep.
And I tell people this all thetime.
They're like, How do I getsomeone out?
I said, You don't.
You just are there, you have tolet them know you're there for
them and that you don't judgethem, yeah, and that you love
them.
And if you do that, they'll knowthat you're the person to go to
(28:37):
when they have that doubt.
Yep.
You know, and completely.
I say that to people all thetime because there's no other
way.
There is no other way.
So what happened was what hadhappened was that um I got
approved to go to their 60thwedding anniversary.
(28:58):
Shock of shocks, because Ididn't get to go to their 50th,
because of course I was behindbarbed wire at the time, and
nobody got to go do anything.
Like, yep, your family, your momdies, you can't go to the
funeral.
SPEAKER_02 (29:10):
I know, I know.
It's crazy.
I was talking to my uncle thismorning, actually, that lives in
England, and I told him, I'mlike, I'm so sorry, I missed my
granddad's funeral.
It's so senseless and stupid andinfuriating looking back, like
there was no good reason.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
And anyway, but yeah, my dad had a heart attack
and I couldn't go.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Ugh.
So, so so you're approved to goto their 60th wedding
anniversary.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
I was approved to go for that night.
And what year was this, sorry?
2007.
This is when I left.
SPEAKER_02 (29:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
So, but I was approved to go for that night.
So I rented a little ToyotaCorolla from Enterprise Rent a
Car because back then Enterprisewould let you would let Seaorg
members rent cars for cash.
Oh, isn't that wild?
Yes.
I mean, it's like everythingaligned, right?
But they would like we go off ifwe had a Saturday off, we could
rent a car from Enterprisebecause they knew we'd always
(30:06):
bring it back.
Yep.
And um, none of us had creditcards.
It's not like we had creditcards.
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
I mean, if a Sea Org member had a bank account, I
never that was a miracle.
And if they did have a bankaccount, chances are it had
what, like five bucks in it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
Exactly, because all the money, extra money you had
would go to like Miss Gavage'sbirthday present.
Or remember when they wouldstand in line where they'd stand
in line.
We were getting our check, ourlittle pay stub thingies, yep.
And how much are you gonna give?
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
And if you didn't, Linda Linda Succestad was the
general officer, and she she hadexcuse my language, but she had
resting bitch face always and umit would be like hand over your
money.
SPEAKER_01 (30:47):
Um yeah, yeah, you got$35.
Well, 20 of it's going tomiscavige's birthday party.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
And you dare not say no.
If you got if you said no, yougot basically hauled off to
ethics right on the spot.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
You bet you did.
Yeah, so anyway, I had saved alittle bit of money for that
because it wasn't thatexpensive, it was like 50 bucks
to rent it for the day.
This is 2007.
So I drive to Lakeland to hear,and it was the most incredible
event.
(31:18):
All my family flew in fromCanada and all over the place,
like nieces, nephews.
We were all there celebrating.
Everybody, it was so much fun,and we're all sitting around the
table at this restaurant, andwe're just having the best time
and laughing and joking, and I'mlike, I forgot what this feels
like, right?
This is my family.
(31:38):
These are the this is how I grewup because I had a great
childhood.
It wasn't like I was traumatizedas a kid or something.
No, no, I had a perfectchildhood.
Yeah, that wasn't why I got intoScientology, I just screwed up
my young adulthood.
But you know, but I was justshocked at the difference
(31:59):
between what I was living andthis, right?
Because what I'd been taught wasanyone who's not a Scientologist
is lower-toned and they're justnot doing well in life, and
they're gonna die, and they haveno spiritual.
I was like, that's not what I'mseeing here.
Everybody's so happy, and theyand they were just so loving.
(32:22):
So then my brother, my olderbrother, who's an over-the-road,
who was, he passed to, but hewas an over-the-road trucker,
18-wheeler, and he would travelall over the US and Canada.
And he and his wife were in theholiday inn because they didn't
have a house in Lakeland.
And he said, Why don't you juststay with us tonight?
Because we have two beds in thehotel room.
You don't have to drive homethis late.
(32:43):
And I'm like, I wonder if I canget away with this.
As long as I'm at MorningMuster, they won't know that I'm
gone for the night.
So I did.
I stayed.
It was like such a comfy bed.
I was like, ooh, this is nice.
It's not a hard mattress.
I don't have a headache fromworking all day and all night.
Yeah, and um, I got really goodsleep.
(33:03):
I got up early in the morning,got back in the car, and I was
raring to go.
I was feeling great.
I had this wonderful time and Iwas reinvigorated to clear the
planet and I was driving back toFlag.
I get, you know what's coming.
So I get to Muster on time.
Nobody knows that I wasn'tthere.
Um, and then uh after Muster, Iget this uh call to go to the
(33:28):
auditorium because the deputyexecutive director, Kathy West,
wanted to see me.
I'm like, what does she wantnow?
Okay.
This is the most, I mean, how doI describe her?
Did you ever know her?
SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
Kathy West.
I'm trying to think.
I I think I knew a Karen West.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
She was a the best way I could describe her is very
hard, very shrewish.
You know, she'd been inScientology a long time in the
Sea Org, and it really took itstoll on her.
And uh she was not a happyperson.
Anyway, I walk in there and shejust starts screaming at me.
And there's always people inthere, and I walk in and she's
(34:07):
just like, rah! I'm like, oh,here we go, here we go.
And she says, How dare you?
I cannot believe that you wentto see your family when you
don't have that marketingcampaign done.
I'm not kidding.
You're suppressive, you'reruining Scientology.
And that was the moment thatsomething deep inside me went,
(34:30):
Oh, fuck no, I am done with you.
And I just looked at her and Isaid, Yes, sir.
That's what you say, right?
And then she said, You're gonnastay up all night and get that
campaign done.
And I was like, Yes, sir.
But in my head, I knew what Iwas gonna do.
So I went back to my office andI said, Guys, I took, I told all
my staff, you can stay till 10o'clock, but then you're gonna
(34:52):
go home.
This is my problem, and I'mgonna deal with it.
So I sent them all home at 10.
And then I sat in my littlewindowless office for 10 more
hours deciding whether to leave.
That's how long it took.
I sat there going back and forthand back and forth and back and
(35:14):
forth and back and forth.
Um, and I wrote this letter andI kept rewriting it and
rewriting it and rewriting it.
It was something to the effectof I'm done, I'm out of here,
uh, don't come following me.
I knew they would, but don'tcome looking for me.
Um, I'm not coming back.
And you can just blame me foreverything.
Just say I'm suppressive and I'mruining Scientology and it's all
(35:35):
my fault.
I don't care what you say.
Just don't follow me because Iam done.
And finally, I finally printedthat out at eight o'clock in the
morning because I knew if Ididn't leave then it was going
to be too late.
SPEAKER_02 (35:46):
Yeah, your window was closing.
Yes.
People would be coming back intowork and all that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Yep.
So I printed it out, left it onthe desk, walked out with just
my uniform on and a purse.
That's all I had.
Got in the car because I stillhad it.
I hadn't turned it in from thenight before.
Oh, nice.
Okay.
And so I dro I figured there wasan enterprise in Lakeland,
right?
I could drop it off.
So I I got in the car, but Ididn't get in right away.
(36:12):
I walked up to the car and I waslike, I'm really gonna do this.
I mean, after 10 hours, I'mstill doing that.
Wow.
But you know how that feels.
I do, of course.
Back and forth in your head, theback and forth.
I'm giving up everything, I'mleaving everything behind,
everything I thought was true,everything I've devoted my
entire life to, that I've givenup all these other things for.
(36:33):
Nope.
I guess I'm leaving.
I don't know what's ahead of me,but it can't be worse than this,
or maybe it can, but I'm gonnafind out.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
But it it's crazy that in that moment, though, I
think that even if uh and not tospeak for you, but nothing could
be worse than that.
Even worse wouldn't actually beworse, right?
Correct.
Yeah, nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
So I'd finally come to that decision, and I get in
the car and I start driving, andI am panicked the whole time
because it's about an hourdrive.
And the whole time I'm lookingin the rearview mirror, I'm
looking behind me, I'm like,they're here, they're coming,
they're coming, they're coming,they're coming.
They're gonna know I'm gone.
I keep looking at the watch.
Okay, muster's at 9:30, and uhthat gives me another half hour
(37:15):
before they start coming afterme.
So I get to Lakeland and Irealize I can't go to my mom and
dad's house because they knowwhere they live.
I can't go to my youngerbrother's house, who he and his
family lived in Lakeland also.
Well, they still do, becausethey know where they lived,
because they knew everythingabout me, of course.
Of course, but they didn't knowthat my older brother was at the
(37:37):
holiday inn.
SPEAKER_02 (37:38):
So what's your older brother's name, by the way?
Al.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Thank you, Al.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
He was my uh wait till you hear this.
Okay.
So he was my big brother, he's12 years older than me, six foot
two, like 250 pounds, truckdriver.
I've always felt safe with Al,right?
And um, but I got to the holidayin and his truck wasn't there,
his his uh pickup wasn't there,and I freaked.
(38:07):
And I went, Oh my god, they'vealready left.
What am I gonna do?
What am I gonna do?
What am I well?
I'm just gonna go up to the roomand see if they're there.
So I go up to the room, knock onthe door, my sister-in-law opens
the door, goes, What are youdoing here?
And I start bawling, and I said,I left, I'm not going back.
She grabs me, yes me in theroom, slams the door.
(38:28):
She's like, Oh my god, I'm sohappy.
I'm like, I don't know if I'mhappy.
I don't know what I am rightnow, but I'm not going back.
I'm like, where's Al?
Where's Al?
And she goes, He's not here.
I'm like, oh she says, but I'mon the phone with him.
She had her little Motorolarazor phone.
And she hands it to me and hegoes, Baby sister, I've got you.
They're never gonna hurt youagain.
(38:50):
I know.
Makes me tear up a little bitthinking about it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
So do you know what he did?
He said, So I'm about to go on atrip across the country, and
I'll be out for a couple ofweeks.
So I'm gonna get okay for you tocome with me.
SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
So I drove across the country in his truck for two
and a half weeks.
So they could not find me.
Sure, they camped out in frontof my parents' house and my
brother's house for a week ortwo, but they could never get
me.
And then he got back for acouple weeks.
SPEAKER_02 (39:28):
Amazing.
I know.
Gosh, man, thank, thank you,thank you, Al, for being there.
Oh my gosh.
And how surreal was that, by theway, going from like, oh, you
know, stay up all night doingthe and now you're driving in a
truck for two and a half weeksall across the US.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (39:46):
It was insanely weird because all I did for the
first week was this stare outthe window.
Wow.
I couldn't do anything, I wasjust numb.
And to my brother's credit, henever tried to get into a
conversation with me.
He just let me do that.
(40:06):
And what we our little routinewas um he would park at a truck
stop.
I know every truck stop in theUS by now, right?
And and I noticed at the truckstops how nice everybody was,
right?
I'm like, this is not what I wastaught.
Nope.
These people are reallyfriendly.
Hmm.
(40:27):
And uh, you know, so but butwhat we would do is we'd stop at
the truck stop and we'd havedinner, and then he'd go to bed
early, and I would sleep uhacross the two front seats with
a bunch of pillows under me.
It wasn't comfortable, but itwas way better than what I'd
been doing, right?
And I would sleep there untilabout four o'clock in the
morning when he'd wake upbecause he'd had to get on the
(40:48):
road, and then we'd switch and Igo sleep in his back cabin bed,
which was super comfy.
And then I just, you know, hehad bought me a DVD player and
DVDs to watch and books to read,and I just I got to just chill.
Wow, for two and a half weeks.
Yeah, it was great.
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
Watch movies, read books.
It's like you know, the thingswe would only dream about.
SPEAKER_01 (41:11):
We never got to do that, man.
We didn't have TVs.
SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
No, we we Mark and I did, but it had to be under a
blanket, and it was you knowillicit.
We were awesome.
We were just rebellious.
Mark, especially, wasrebellious.
And then if if anyone challengedhim on it, by the way, he'd be
like, Well, I'm in the Cinedivision, uh, where we shoot all
the movies, and you know, so Ihave to do art series eight.
(41:39):
So art series eight is thepolicy that you have to watch.
Yeah, you know, he has an answerfor everything.
It's so smart though.
When when when you're in anargument with Mark, it's the
only time I would ever getfrustrated with him because he
has an answer for everything.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
That's hilarious.
That just makes so much sense,though.
Yeah, so yeah, then I uh endedup going back to uh Lakeland and
live with my I'm just sograteful that I have family
because none of my family evergot into Scientology.
Because I never now this isinteresting.
I had I had thought about thisrecently.
(42:16):
I never tried to get them intoScientology.
Yeah, I didn't want to get theminto Scientology.
Yep.
Why is that?
I wonder.
SPEAKER_02 (42:25):
Yeah, it is interesting.
And it's funny that you saythat.
Um, I mean, in my scenario isdifferent because uh, you know,
being born into it, my siblingswere all in, but I never tried
to get any of my aunts or unclesor cousins into Scientology.
(42:45):
It was um, you know, I mean, wedidn't have a close
relationship, but I never saw mymom certainly never tried to get
her siblings in.
My stepdad, um, he did try toget his sister in.
But it's interesting, uh, and itmakes me like, do you think that
was because in on some level youknew that you didn't want that
(43:07):
for them?
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
I do think that.
Yeah, I really do, because youknow, it was always there was
always this dichotomy in myhead, like I am selling books to
new people and I'm trying to getall these people into
Scientology, but I don't wantthem to go into Scientology.
Yeah, like isn't that it's justweird to think about that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:29):
Yeah, no, you remind me, not and again, not to get
off onto my story, but I I'mfine with it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:35):
I remember we don't know anything about each other,
even though we're each other.
SPEAKER_02 (43:39):
I know it's so crazy.
But yeah, my brother, I mean,technically he's my
half-brother, but I raised my mysiblings from birth to like they
were six, four, and two when Ijoined the C organization.
And for for three years uh afterwe moved to America, my mom and
stepdad never Put me back inschool.
(44:01):
So I was looking after them fromnoon until 10, 10 p.m.
midnight every day.
Um, while my mom worked, mystepdad worked at the Beverly
Hills mission, and um they weredirt poor, uh, you know, all the
money went to Scientology.
Anyhow, my brother, when he was17, I think, and I was internal
(44:25):
executive in RTC, whichbasically meant that I was over
the internal operations, likerecruiting new staff and you
know, staff training and ethicsfor RTC staff, all that kind of
stuff.
Anyway, my brother called mewhen I was eating dinner and
said, Hey, I'm I'm thinkingabout joining the C
organization.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
(44:49):
So, you know what I did?
What I proudly admit because hewas not the best student at the
time.
He hadn't done many Scientologycourses, and I knew he would
fail.
Not as an evil thing.
It's no, you just knew he wasn'tcut out for it.
I knew he wouldn't, he wouldn'tmake it.
And and I also knew very well atthat point that this would
(45:13):
become a huge problem for my momif he joined the C organization
and then failed, because I'dalready said I was gonna fail.
And she was like, Well, you'regonna be on your own then.
There's nothing I can do uh whenI was 16.
Wow.
So so what I did for my brother.
SPEAKER_01 (45:30):
Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
I know, I made him what's called a project prepare.
Yeah, which is basically youneed to get through X, Y, and Z
steps to get ready to join the Corganization.
Except my project Prepare waslike a five-year program.
Nice that he would never getthrough.
Sorry, Robbie, but now you havethree kids, even though you
(45:53):
don't talk to me.
I know you're still drinking theKool-Aid.
I love you anyway, and I didthat for you.
So yeah, and nobody couldoverride it because I was the
internal executive, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
That's right.
Nobody could mess with you.
SPEAKER_02 (46:07):
Yeah.
Oh, honey, anyway.
Anyway, but yeah, okay, so soyou're so you back to you.
So two and a half weeks, and soby the end of that, what like
had you talked to anybody, hadthey, you know, so you tried.
SPEAKER_01 (46:24):
Okay, okay, there was this one time where we were
in the car, I mean in the truck,and my brother gets a call on
his cell phone, and it's flag,and I'm like, how do they know
his phone number?
Because they can find anything,right?
Right.
And um, so they were trying toput on uh this woman, I forget
(46:47):
her name now.
She was my really good, goodfriend at Flag.
She was like my best friend, andthey want she wanted to talk to
me, right?
And he said, This is my brotheron the phone.
I don't know where she is.
Why would she be with me?
I'm a trucker, I'm going acrossthe country.
You guys just lost her.
I don't know what to say, butyou better tell me where she is
(47:08):
because you know.
SPEAKER_02 (47:09):
Nice, you better stop calling me.
Nice, and by the way, it's sofrustrating too that they do
that.
Like they take someone who was agood friend of yours who you
might listen to to try andundermine your efforts to escape
and break free, and to have alife of your own, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
And they'll do they'll try any underhanded
dirty trick.
But my I'm telling you, I justsometimes I feel so incredibly
grateful for my I mean, I dothat every day.
I feel grateful for my familybecause uh I mean, I'm sure I
would have made it on my ownbecause I had friends in
California I could have gone tosee and all this stuff, but the
(47:52):
family support was just there'sthey were such a uh stability
for me.
Yeah, like the first this is agood story.
I I'm talking too much, butwhatever.
No, you're not at all.
Please keep going.
This is a great story.
So I had been, I was staying inthe guest room at my parents'
house, they'd turned it into myroom, and um so and uh I my dad
(48:19):
had this little computer, he hadhis office next door, and it was
this little computer, like backin 2007, they weren't like super
fancy.
But uh the day, like two daysafter I got there, I am in the
office on the computer, like Igotta find a job, I gotta do
something.
I can't just sit here and beunproductive because that's what
you're taught.
You have to be productive allthe time.
(48:41):
My mother walks in and sees medoing this.
She goes, What are you doing?
I said, Mom, I gotta get a job.
I can't just sit here.
And she takes me and she sits medown on the couch.
She says, Let me talk to you fora second.
Do you know what you have to doright now?
I said, What?
She goes, sleep.
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
(49:02):
You just rest and relax and geta lot of sleep because you
haven't had sleep for a longtime, and eat good food, and we
will take care of everything.
And don't you even let me catchyou looking for a job for at
least two months.
SPEAKER_02 (49:17):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
I know it makes me cry.
I mean, right?
Yeah.
So that was how it started, youknow, how my deconstruction
started.
But then I started, you know,the way that I really I mean,
it's been a long process andit'll be it'll go on for the
rest of my life.
I know this.
For sure.
You know this.
It's just a constant unpeelingof layers, right?
SPEAKER_02 (49:40):
It's not a trip, it's a journey.
SPEAKER_01 (49:42):
It is.
SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
I'm enjoying the journey now, though.
I didn't enjoy it for manyyears.
SPEAKER_02 (49:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
But now it's a good journey.
SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:50):
Um, but but yeah, I did not work.
Um, I relaxed and watched oldEnglish TV comedies with my dad.
And it was just, it was so niceto be able to reconnect with
them after all those years.
Think about my mother.
Think about how strong she musthave been.
She didn't even know where I wasalive for 14 years, and she
(50:13):
never once tried to, you know,there was there were no
histrionics, there was no, oh mygod, none of that.
SPEAKER_02 (50:22):
This is a perfect example of the unconditional
love that does not exist inScientology.
SPEAKER_01 (50:30):
I completely agree.
So I know this is kind of odd,but I was looking at the tone
scale once.
The scale of emotions, right?
The emotional tone scale.
Love isn't on the tone scale.
Hate's on the tone scale.
SPEAKER_02 (50:45):
Okay, so so not to get off topic, but I've been I
just got a set of the children'sbooks that they just oh, you did
not.
I did.
If you want to, we could do atalk about it as a separate
episode.
But um, and and it'sspecifically important to me to
expose that as of March, DavidMiscavige is actively this year
(51:10):
targeting children ages sevenand up.
But so the ARC triangle, I wasliterally just thinking about
this this morning, running up mymountain.
Um so the ARC triangle,actually, I was surprised to see
that the word love does appearin there once, but which struck
(51:31):
me because I had looked.
Um, and you're right, love isnot in the language of
Scientology.
No, and here's where did thatcome from?
Right.
And so they've inserted it, buthere's the kicker.
So it outlines, and this iswhat's so destructive and
insidious the ARC triangle,affinity, the feeling of love or
(51:52):
liking for someone, reality,agreement, um, or you know, the
the thing like no the conceptthat oh, we look at a wall and
we agree that it's blue, so wehave that reality, right?
Communication is talking aboutthings, it makes it so
transactional that it breaksdown the very fundamental
(52:15):
foundation of unconditionallove.
And here's how because then, oh,well, I don't agree with
Scientology now.
Oh, boom, done, out.
Yeah, ties cut, it'stransactional, it is
transactional, and it's just noteven a question, and that's
what's so insidious about itbecause you can disagree with
(52:36):
somebody and still love them.
You can people do it all thetime, but not according to
Scientology.
If you don't agree withScientology, we can't have ARC
together.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah, you're out of here.
So they added love in.
That's so interesting.
Just one word, yeah.
Um, you know, and they also, Imean, they use the word
(52:57):
Scientology in these books.
Um, but yeah, anyway, we'llwe'll talk about that
separately.
SPEAKER_01 (53:03):
To break it down, I saw that, Claire, and it just
broke my heart when I saw whathe's doing now, trying to get
these kids in.
Yeah, yeah.
It's because they're desperateat this point because yeah,
adults aren't going in.
Yeah.
If I'd have had the internet at27, I would never, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (53:20):
I mean, I know, I know.
I I did a um a talk for acollege class in Australia, and
it was um fascinating to me thatthey asked specifically and
said, Do you think that ifScientology had been created in
this day and age that it wouldhave, you know, the billions and
(53:43):
of dollars that it has?
I'm like, absolutely not.
No, definitely not, for sure.
No, absolutely.
No way.
No way.
Uh anyway, anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (53:53):
So so that was the beginning of my becoming joyful
again.
I mean, I never lost the joy,but it was really they tried.
Yeah.
They tried to, you know, theythey stripped it away as best
they could, but it came back.
SPEAKER_02 (54:09):
Well, amazing.
I'm so so glad.
Uh thank you, Kathy West, forbeing an evil human and being
that final breaking point thatdrove you out.
And thank you for your strengthand courage.
Thank you, brother Al and youramazing mom.
SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
And my amazing husband that I haven't even
talked about.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
Yes, your amazing husband.
And um, anyway, yeah.
Can you believe it?
We've once again reached the endof our hour.
SPEAKER_01 (54:37):
No, this is going too fast.
SPEAKER_02 (54:40):
I know, I know.
Anyway, I can tell as many timesas you want to come on here and
we can chat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
I'm down from we could even do lives if you want.
We can answer people'squestions.
Yes, I'm gonna open at thispoint.
SPEAKER_02 (54:54):
That would be amazing.
I used to do um Women onWednesday with Amy and Amy
Scoby, and unfortunately, herwork schedule has been too
challenging for her to do that.
But yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's let's um wellanyway.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
I know I'm always got ahead ofmyself.
You're welcome.
Um, I will link to everything inthe description.
(55:17):
Um, if you have questions,viewers for Anne that you'd like
us to cover, drop them in thecomments and we'll we'll we'll
talk more.
I'd love to also hear abouteverything that happened
afterwards and your amazinghusband and all that, but we
will save that for another day.
How about that?
Yeah, we will.
Okay.
Awesome.
Until next time.
(55:37):
I love you, Anne.
Thank you for everything.
Talk to you soon.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (55:43):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have Hail Xenu, Xenu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content on aregular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good, behind
(56:05):
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, Kindle, and Audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(56:26):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
Hello, and welcome back to the channel.
I'm your host for today, ClaireHeadley.
And today we will be umdiscussing part two of
Scientology Stories with my dearfriend and amazing uh now, let's
see, whistleblower, uh activist,Scientology exposer of abuse,
(00:49):
Ann Gollert Hill.
Welcome to the show, Anne.
Welcome back.
Let's expose.
Yes, let's get to it.
So so amazing.
I so thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation from part one.
Um, I will link to that in thevideo description.
So if you're tuning in for thefirst time and just meeting Anne
(01:09):
for the first time, stop rightnow and go back and watch part
one.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Yeah, you got to get the juicy details.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Yes, exactly.
Um, my gosh, that hour just flewby.
And and to reiterate what Isaid, uh what we discussed in
part one, um, you have a bookcoming up, you've been um
posting on TikTok, you have aSubstack, there's all kinds of
ways to follow Ann's story, andI'm just so grateful to have
(01:39):
your voice in this space.
So thank you again.
I'm so grateful to be in thisspace.
It took a long time for me toget here.
Yes, and it takes all of us along time to get here, frankly.
Um yeah, I mean, I can stillremember the first time that I
went to do film a documentaryand there were private
investigators out on the street,right?
(02:00):
It was scary.
I was like, oh my gosh, whathave I got myself into here?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Right?
I remember once I was having uhlunch with Ron and Becky
Miscavige because they were inthe area and I hadn't seen them
in forever.
And it was right after the wholeincident had happened with you
know, David uh saying if hedies, he dies, you know, that
whole incident.
Yes, yes, what became his book.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
I'll I'll add the link in the description.
Tony Ortega did an article aboutthat.
But yes, Ron Miscavige Sr., hisson David Miscavige had private
investigators following him forso it was really fun.
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
It was so much fun to have lunch and have all the
cars going by.
And we're like, oh, there'sthere's one, there's one.
There's one over there.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Oh my gosh, we we have stories for days.
We we'll probably we'll probablyhave to do a follow-up just in
Scientology nonsense, right?
You've against yeah, I mean,I've you reminded me of a time
in 2009.
So our kids were three and one.
We were living in Burbank,California.
We went and had lunch with AmyScobie and Matt Pesh, and we
(03:04):
came back and we had literallyan OSA film crew on our front
yard with a you know, the soundboom, the camera.
We're like, we had lunch at aMexican restaurant.
Like, what is wrong with youpeople?
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Wow.
They're just, you know, theythink they can shut you up, but
they can't anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
I know.
I oh, speaking of which, I knowstories like this, again, not
not to uh not to overstep mywelcome, but we should do a
follow-up because do you knowthis past week um Scientology
submitted an amicus brief in theDanny Masterson case?
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:41):
And like a huge portion of it is attacking me,
comparing me to an anti-Catholicdefrocked nun.
I'm sorry.
That is hilarious, really.
But but my the the part that'sso outrageous to me is they say
I would not leave them alone.
(04:03):
I'm like, just get out.
Are you kidding me right now?
I wouldn't leave you alone.
The only reason I'm I even gotover my in like life-threatening
fear of speaking out againstthese bullies is because of they
wouldn't leave me alone.
(04:23):
Exactly.
Come on, anyway, whatever.
Not not to that'll be anothertopic.
Yes, exactly.
But back to today.
So in our last episode, we gotto, you know, you're you're
you're now working in marketingat Golden Era Productions, Int
Base, whatever, Supermax, akathe 500-acre compound in Gilman
(04:48):
Hot Springs, California.
Supermax is weird, maybe right,exactly.
Actually, Supermax seems likevacation, like a leave of
absence compared to that, right?
Indeed.
Um, so you're starting to becomedisillusioned.
You, David Miscavige's ummicromanaging everything that
you're doing.
Yep.
But I would like to first, ifyou don't mind, kind of walk
(05:10):
through your the unraveling fromyour perspective.
Like what started happening,what was your thought process,
what was going through yourmind?
Um, and then we'll get to yourescape.
The best part.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
I know.
So the unraveling, that's aninteresting way to put it
because it happens so slowly,you don't really realize it's
happening, but little thingswill happen and it snaps you out
just temporarily, and you go,Whoa, what was that?
That's not what I've beenlearning and reading.
And who who like I'll give youan example.
(05:46):
I mean, everybody knows thestory.
Well, most people do.
If they're watching thischannel, they know the story of
you know, Miss Scavage jumpingacross the table and beating up
Jeff Hawkins when he was, youknow, and I was right next to
him when this happened.
SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
And we were all just like yes, sorry, let me insert
because my favorite um line froma movie that to me perfectly
describes that scenario.
If you've ever seen Elf, it'swhen he goes, Ooh, he's a South
Pole elf.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
It's exactly like Elf running across the table.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that incident was a littleshocking because I think that
was the first time I saw him hitsomebody.
I mean, there were more timesafter that, but that was just my
first experience with it.
Um and what sorry, what whatyear was this approximately?
Oh early 90s.
(06:41):
Like I don't remember what yearthat was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Early 90s.
Maybe you mean early 2000s?
Because you got to the base in1993, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Yeah.
It might have been early 2000s.
It might have been good.
Because we'd work for like we'dwork, I'd I'd been there maybe
10 years before I saw him hitanybody.
I mean I got hit by otherpeople, but not him.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Who who did you get hit by?
Oh, oh, this is a good story.
Okay.
So I mean, not that getting hitby somebody is no.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
So I was so in various stages I was in charge
of different things because youknow though they tried everybody
on the marketing executive post.
They tried to put everybody onthat post.
And I was on that post for avery short time.
Uh, and while I was I was theperson who recommended me for
(07:44):
that position was Lisa Schroer.
Lisa Schroer is one of thepeople I think about most
unfondly when I think back tothat base.
She was not a nice person, andshe did whatever Miss Scavage
wanted her to do.
And there and she became likehim.
I, you know, certain executiveswould kind of become like him.
(08:07):
They emulated him because Iguess they figured it would keep
them in his good graces.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
And yeah, and I think you know, you know, the
saying like absolute power or uhabsolute power corrupts
absolutely.
Right.
Um, I I think that personally, Ithink that's a part of it too,
because there's a there you'reright.
Uh to me, there are twocategories of people.
There were the people that weredid what they had to do to
(08:35):
survive.
Yep.
And there were people thatrevelled in, you know, like they
they're like the snake in thegrass, and they would enjoy
seeing other people down andtake every opportunity to, you
know, make it worse.
That's that's just how I viewit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
I think that's a really good assessment.
And she was one of those people,right?
And I was standing with her inthe middle of marketing, and she
was mad at me for something Ididn't do.
I don't know.
And she was sitting standingnext to somebody who I won't
name, but I thought was a reallygood friend of mine.
And she said to this person,take her out in the hall and
(09:16):
slap her hard across the face.
So she did.
She walks me out in the hall,right?
And she looks at me and shesays, I'm sorry, I have to do
this.
Bam! And I was shocked, but Iwasn't, it wasn't the pain of
this, it was the pain ofthinking that she would choose
(09:37):
me over the organization, andshe didn't.
And that really got me thinkinglike, hmm, this is interesting.
You know, that was one of thosethings where it kind of snapped
me out temporarily, but then youjustify it all.
I must have done something todeserve this because that's what
they tell you.
I pulled it in, right?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yep.
The adop indoctrination thatmake means that eventually
you're doing the work for themof keeping you in, right?
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They they weren't doing, theydidn't have to do anything.
Yeah.
I just went I mean, aside fromyou were trapped in Supermax and
you know, besides besides that,you had no car, you couldn't
(10:18):
drive out the door, but youknow, those are little things.
But but then you say potato, Isay potato, whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
But then so this went on for a while, and then
eventually, um in 2003, a teamof us went to Flag in
Clearwater, and we were there towork on the basics campaign,
these Scientology basic booksthat was a big deal.
(10:46):
You know, everybody was like onI don't know, pins and needles,
tenter hooks, you know, likewell, this has got to get done,
or it's gotta get done right,and nothing was getting done
right.
So Miss Gavage takes this smallgroup of people.
Me, Dan Kuhn, uh Lisa Schroerwas there, Helen Pinder.
Remember Helen?
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Yes, I remember Helen.
SPEAKER_01 (11:07):
And uh who else was there?
Jeff Hawkins.
And we were all, he brought usall to Clearwater, and he
brought us into a conferenceroom and he said, Okay, so we've
got to get this done.
And here's what we're gonna do.
I am going to give you guys anassignment every single day.
(11:28):
And if you do the assignmentright, you're good.
If you don't, you're here.
Meaning offloaded onto the flagland base.
Now, for somebody who's anint-based staff member, that is
a fate worse than death.
Right.
Right.
I don't know how to describe howscary that was.
(11:48):
Right.
But you understand.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I do.
I do.
I would liken it to hmm.
It to me, I would say it'salmost would be worse than being
expelled altogether fromScientology, personally.
That's right.
Um, because it would be done insuch a way that um everybody
(12:12):
knows you failed.
Um very degrading.
Right, completely degrading, andthere's no worse punishment than
ending up in David Miscavige'slittle black book.
That's how I that's how I wouldI would just to add to your
commentary without you askingfor it.
No, I agree though.
SPEAKER_01 (12:32):
And honestly, uh, I don't think he, you know, he was
always out for me from thebeginning.
I was too I was too happy forhim.
I don't think he liked it atall.
No, I was too cheerful.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
He didn't like um he didn't like anybody that showed
emotion that wasn't completesubmission, and uh, you know,
like um, I mean, but again, itexplains to me why you also
sometimes rose up but then felldown.
Yeah.
Um that's what happened.
(13:06):
The way I describe it from Markis Mark was always either on top
of the world or underneath it.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
You're either in his good gracesor his shit graces, and it's
really just a matter of the dayand his mood and what's going
on.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
Right.
So this one day, we'd been therefor three days and we'd all
gotten everything done we weresupposed to get done.
This fourth day, he said, Okay,every single one of you has to
go and sell a lecture series toa Scientologist who's here on
services.
Now understand, all these peoplehave already spent tens of
thousands of dollars to do theirservices at Flag.
(13:42):
And I was just supposed to walkthrough uh the uh organization
and find somebody in a waitingroom who was waiting for their
auditing session and sell them a$700 lecture series, right?
And he said, Every single one ofyou has to do this because I
want to see that you really cansell these things.
Yep, right?
So I tried and I only had anhour.
We only had an hour, and Ididn't succeed, and so he brings
(14:09):
us all back in the room.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Wait, okay, go ahead.
Go ahead, no ask questions.
No, no, no, I'm dying, I'mdying.
Go, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
So he brings us all back in the room and he starts
pointing, goes to Jeff.
Did you sell Lexra series?
Yes, sir.
Dan, yes, sir, uh, Lisa, yes,sir, me, no, sir, Helen, no,
sir.
You two out.
He sent he's that was it.
We were done.
We were off post and he sent usto um he had Jenny Linson take
(14:35):
Jenny Linson take us to uh thegalley, right?
And scrub the floors with atoothbrush for hours upon hours
upon hours upon hours, and thenI was in the dish room for
months after that, and I was,you know, persona non grata,
let's just say.
And it was really interestingthough, because at first I was
(14:57):
so upset.
But the more I got away from allof it and just was doing dishes
and la ha ha, laughing andhaving fun, and yeah, my hands
ached, but it was so mucheasier, right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
And then I thought you were just working, and I
know you you remind me of thetimes that I used to long to be
busted to grounds or somethingbecause I'd be happy just
cutting grass, and and you knowhow they would always say, Oh,
if you leave, you're gonna beyou're just gonna be flipping
burgers the rest of your life.
(15:30):
It's I I know, and I'm like, Iwould love to cook burgers.
You know what's really funny?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
That's actually in my book because I talk about
that like frankly, flippingburgers at McDonald's is way
better than working with him.
Right.
It would have been a much betteridea.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Oh my god.
Okay, but hold on, hold on.
I have to ask you.
So do you and you may not knowthe answer to this.
So Jeff, Lisa, Dan all said yes,sir.
Do you know if they actuallydid, or were they just lying?
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
It was all oh, Jeff told me this later, and so did
Dan.
It was all set up.
What?
Yeah.
So uh what's his name?
I forget.
He used to work for authorservices, and then he was
working in David Bloomberg.
Yes.
So he set up those guys so theyactually had people they could
(16:25):
sell lectures to.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
Get out.
I'm I I will get out.
No, I know, no, no, no, no, no,no.
I I'm just mind-blown.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Like, and he they told me this later.
I'm like, well, that makes sensebecause how does anybody do that
in an hour?
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
Right.
Especially as you said, withpeople who've already spent tens
of thousands, probably hundredsof thousands of dollars to get
there.
People in at Flag on servicesare not there to buy lectures.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
No, yeah.
So, anyway, that's whathappened.
And Helen and I were in the dishroom for a long time.
Uh until and Jenny Linson wouldcome every day, right?
She would walk through the youknow, the mess hall back to the
dish room.
So, are you done?
Are you done being you know, outethics?
(17:16):
Are you done with your evilpurposes?
I'm like, I guess.
unknown (17:21):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
I didn't know.
Okay.
So I figured I was just gonna bein the dish room for the rest of
my Sea Org career, and actuallythat was okay.
I was having fun.
Uh, but then she came in one dayand called me to her office and
said, Okay, are you done withyour shit?
And I said, uh, oh yeah.
Well, you gotta go do themagazine, the source magazine
(17:43):
for flag, because they hadbrought it in, they had uh were
trying to do it in-house becauseI wasn't at it to do any
magazines, right?
So they tried they were tryingto do it in-house and it had
taken them, they were on it fora month and it wasn't done.
She says, Go in there and and dothe magazine.
I walked in and I did itovernight.
And Debbie, I I remember thisDebbie Cook, who was the head of
(18:07):
flag, right?
She walks in and she says,You're here to do the magazine?
I said, Yep.
And she said, Wow, you came fromheaven.
I said, Yeah, via the dish room.
Anyway, so then I was there, andoh, then things got great for me
(18:28):
for a little while because atFlagstill at that time, things
she was running things, she wasin charge, she really was, and
she ran things a whole differentway than Miscavige did, and she
was very much into rewarding youfor you know doing good work,
and I got lots of rewards.
Um, I would go to staff meetingand they'd talk about the
(18:50):
magazine, how it went out, andthe and the income went up six
weeks later or whatever.
You know, it's some statisticthat Hubbard said, and this was
because of me, and thousandpeople would be upstanding and
cheering for me.
I'm like, Where am I?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
They're like, wow, seriously, worlds apart from uh
the years of how you'd lived uptill that point in in the mark
in the marketing division ofGolden Era Productions.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
Yeah, but unfortunately, uh, I mean, I
would I did fine, I was doinggreat, but then a bunch of
people came down from IntManagement to work on the
basics, and this was about forthe for the year before I left.
And one of those people, uh,well, Lisa Schroer was there
(19:34):
when Henning, you know, and theywould just look at me side eye,
the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
But Henning Bendorf was the art director, and then
that turned into some executivepost, even though it wasn't an
executive post because he wasone of David Miscavige's
favorite pets, right?
And he was also he was probablythe human embodiment of an
adder, like you know, thepoisonous snakes quiet, and then
(20:03):
you'd see an evil streak fromhim, like nothing you've ever
seen.
SPEAKER_01 (20:07):
Incredible, it's so so true.
But one of the people that wasthere during this time was Diana
Hubbard, and she'd always likeme.
And she came up to me and she'slike, What are you doing here?
Why aren't you?
You should be back on the base.
You really should be back there,and that I went boom! No, I'll
never go back there.
(20:27):
I didn't say that, of course,because you can't say those
things, but inside I was like, Inever I'm going back there
because I had seen thedifference, right?
Yep, but unfortunately, the basestarted creeping more and more
into Flag the whole the way thatit was that they did things, and
the executive director Harvey,he was like a little mini
(20:49):
miscavage, he became very tiredtyrannical.
Harvey Jakes.
Yeah, yep.
And I was like, hmm, I see thewriting on the wall, but even
then I did not leave.
But here's when it reallychanged when I did OT3.
First of all, getting to do OT3in the Sea Org is almost
(21:10):
impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Yeah, so so walk me through that.
I I started watching your TikTokvideo about this, and I was
like, damn, I didn't know thatyou did OT3.
So let's hear that story.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
So that was because of Debbie Cook, because um I had
gone clear on my clearances.
I think I told you that already.
Yes, you did.
So um basically, because I wasso productive, um, I got to
start my um solo auditing foryou know OT123.
(21:43):
Um, so I got to have sleep andeverything.
It was, I mean, really, I wasdoing I was happy.
I was happy at at FLAG.
Things were going great.
And I got through OT1, I gotthrough it two, and then I
opened then I did OT three and Iopened the pack.
Do you know I was out threemonths later?
(22:04):
The minute I started readingthat, something inside me went,
What?
I spent almost 20 years of mylife for this.
Right.
And I know I'm not the only onewho feels that way.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
No, everybody I've ever talked to, myself included,
uh that was a moment of like,what the AH?
Um, like Mark and I have talkedthis, talked about this story
many times.
Like we were living in KansasCity in an apartment and he
started watching the South Parkepisode.
Ah.
(22:39):
And uh, which by the way, notI'm embarrassed, but not ashamed
to admit that I was still tooafraid and to even watch at so
he was watching out in theliving room and I was just like,
I'm gonna read my book.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Uh yeah, because you've been told so many times
that people will die if they seethis information.
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Well, yeah, but it was not so much in that moment
for me.
I was I was OT5.
Um Oh, right.
That's right.
Yeah.
So for me, it was more about Iwas holding out hope to someday
be able to speak to my family.
And I felt like watching SouthPark would be like the line in
the sand.
And that was off the table.
I mean, it is off the table, andI'm I'm at peace with that.
(23:24):
But at that time, I was stillholding on to that hope.
But so Mark watches South Parkand he looks over at me.
And again, I was, you know, inthe middle of OT5, then
undeclared, clear, and put backon net, but that's a whole other
story.
Oh boy, fun.
Um and he was like, is this forreal?
This Zenu?
This this can't be real.
(23:46):
I'm like, oh yeah, it's real.
Anyway, go ahead.
Go ahead.
And and I've always said to me,it's the most elaborate example
of the Emperor's new clothes,especially the OT levels.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yes, yeah, incredible.
And then when I got out and thenI read about the other OT levels
and where you end up, no wonder,no matter so no wonder so many
people who reach OT8 get sick.
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Yeah, or or or reach the end phenomena of
Scientology, which is leavingScientology.
Right.
That is the end phenomena.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Yay.
I read I just happened to reachit earlier.
Yes, but good for you.
So I I did OT3, and of course Idid all the processes because
that's what you do.
Yep.
And then um I just had thislittle, it seems like everything
I was looking at it from adifferent lens at that point.
(24:38):
So anything that would happenthat was uh upsetting, like or
somebody would yell at me, whichwas every day, or you know, the
RTC rep would come in and tellme how suppressive I was because
I didn't have a marketingcampaign done.
And there were, I I think therewere about three or four times
after Thursday at two.
(24:58):
I literally walked out the backdoor because there you could,
but then I turned around andcame back.
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
Wow.
So you were like, I'm out ofhere, and then like, oh,
actually, maybe not.
Yeah, where am I gonna go?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
No money, no vehicle, no phone.
We didn't have phones, right?
Where was we gonna go?
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
I had no hotel, and I'm willing to bet you'd had no
contact or very little, if any,supervised contact with your
family outside of Scientology.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Well, this is the other interesting part.
Oh, you're gonna like this one.
So my parents, I hadn't hadcontact with them for 14 years,
right?
When I was at Int, um, andbefore.
But um when I was at Flag, theylive only 50 miles from
Clearwater here in Rome.
Yeah.
So which where I live now,they're both past since then,
(25:53):
but I got a chance to see thembecause they came to Clearwater
to see me, right?
And I it was nice.
They none, they never, ever,ever once said to me, You're in
a cult, you have to leave, youneed to come with us right now.
They didn't do that.
(26:13):
Yeah, because they were smartand they knew that if they said
that to me, I would just dig myfeet in, and they were proving
me, and I probably just don'twant to talk to them ever again,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
You wouldn't, and nor would you be allowed to.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
I wouldn't be allowed to, yes.
But what nobody knew, well, theyknow now because I've talked
about it and it's also in thebook, is that um we had a phone
line in the marketing buildingbecause the marketing building
was separate from the rest ofthe organization.
It was little, it was a littlekind of small building across
from where this they werebuilding the superpower
(26:46):
building, and it was its ownlittle entity, and it had an
outside phone line becausevendors had to be able to call
us, and the plot thickens, and Igave my mom the number, nice,
and she would call me once aweek for four years, once a
week, and she would say Molly,and did nobody notice?
(27:10):
Well, my juniors knew, but theywere doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Oh, we in Scientology, this is called a
case of mutual outrudiments,i.e., we're all doing it, so
let's just not report it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Exactly, and that's the only time that happens,
yeah, right.
Otherwise, it would have beenreported on way before, but they
wanted to do it too, so I didn'tcare.
SPEAKER_02 (27:33):
And if any one of them had gotten in trouble, they
would have eventually spilledthe bean.
So, so wait, so for four years,you were talking to your mom
every week.
I'm buttons.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
Well, or every other week.
Okay, right.
Amazing.
Every time she'd call me, I knowthat was what helped the most.
When she would call me, she'dsay, Hi, honey, how are you
doing?
Good, how's the marketing going?
Great.
Um, she would ask me somequestions, she would never talk
about Scientology.
You know, we'd love to see youif you ever have a chance to
come see us.
(28:05):
That'd be great.
I love you.
Click.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
I love your mom.
Rest in peace.
I'm sorry you lost her, but shesounds amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
She was 99, but she was amazing.
Wow.
She was amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
And uh um, so I knew always that I had a safe place
to go.
Yep.
And I tell people this all thetime.
They're like, How do I getsomeone out?
I said, You don't.
You just are there, you have tolet them know you're there for
them and that you don't judgethem, yeah, and that you love
them.
And if you do that, they'll knowthat you're the person to go to
(28:37):
when they have that doubt.
Yep.
You know, and completely.
I say that to people all thetime because there's no other
way.
There is no other way.
So what happened was what hadhappened was that um I got
approved to go to their 60thwedding anniversary.
(28:58):
Shock of shocks, because Ididn't get to go to their 50th,
because of course I was behindbarbed wire at the time, and
nobody got to go do anything.
Like, yep, your family, your momdies, you can't go to the
funeral.
SPEAKER_02 (29:10):
I know, I know.
It's crazy.
I was talking to my uncle thismorning, actually, that lives in
England, and I told him, I'mlike, I'm so sorry, I missed my
granddad's funeral.
It's so senseless and stupid andinfuriating looking back, like
there was no good reason.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
And anyway, but yeah, my dad had a heart attack
and I couldn't go.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Ugh.
So, so so you're approved to goto their 60th wedding
anniversary.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
I was approved to go for that night.
And what year was this, sorry?
2007.
This is when I left.
SPEAKER_02 (29:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
So, but I was approved to go for that night.
So I rented a little ToyotaCorolla from Enterprise Rent a
Car because back then Enterprisewould let you would let Seaorg
members rent cars for cash.
Oh, isn't that wild?
Yes.
I mean, it's like everythingaligned, right?
But they would like we go off ifwe had a Saturday off, we could
rent a car from Enterprisebecause they knew we'd always
(30:06):
bring it back.
Yep.
And um, none of us had creditcards.
It's not like we had creditcards.
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
I mean, if a Sea Org member had a bank account, I
never that was a miracle.
And if they did have a bankaccount, chances are it had
what, like five bucks in it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
Exactly, because all the money, extra money you had
would go to like Miss Gavage'sbirthday present.
Or remember when they wouldstand in line where they'd stand
in line.
We were getting our check, ourlittle pay stub thingies, yep.
And how much are you gonna give?
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
And if you didn't, Linda Linda Succestad was the
general officer, and she she hadexcuse my language, but she had
resting bitch face always and umit would be like hand over your
money.
SPEAKER_01 (30:47):
Um yeah, yeah, you got$35.
Well, 20 of it's going tomiscavige's birthday party.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
And you dare not say no.
If you got if you said no, yougot basically hauled off to
ethics right on the spot.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
You bet you did.
Yeah, so anyway, I had saved alittle bit of money for that
because it wasn't thatexpensive, it was like 50 bucks
to rent it for the day.
This is 2007.
So I drive to Lakeland to hear,and it was the most incredible
event.
(31:18):
All my family flew in fromCanada and all over the place,
like nieces, nephews.
We were all there celebrating.
Everybody, it was so much fun,and we're all sitting around the
table at this restaurant, andwe're just having the best time
and laughing and joking, and I'mlike, I forgot what this feels
like, right?
This is my family.
(31:38):
These are the this is how I grewup because I had a great
childhood.
It wasn't like I was traumatizedas a kid or something.
No, no, I had a perfectchildhood.
Yeah, that wasn't why I got intoScientology, I just screwed up
my young adulthood.
But you know, but I was justshocked at the difference
(31:59):
between what I was living andthis, right?
Because what I'd been taught wasanyone who's not a Scientologist
is lower-toned and they're justnot doing well in life, and
they're gonna die, and they haveno spiritual.
I was like, that's not what I'mseeing here.
Everybody's so happy, and theyand they were just so loving.
(32:22):
So then my brother, my olderbrother, who's an over-the-road,
who was, he passed to, but hewas an over-the-road trucker,
18-wheeler, and he would travelall over the US and Canada.
And he and his wife were in theholiday inn because they didn't
have a house in Lakeland.
And he said, Why don't you juststay with us tonight?
Because we have two beds in thehotel room.
You don't have to drive homethis late.
(32:43):
And I'm like, I wonder if I canget away with this.
As long as I'm at MorningMuster, they won't know that I'm
gone for the night.
So I did.
I stayed.
It was like such a comfy bed.
I was like, ooh, this is nice.
It's not a hard mattress.
I don't have a headache fromworking all day and all night.
Yeah, and um, I got really goodsleep.
(33:03):
I got up early in the morning,got back in the car, and I was
raring to go.
I was feeling great.
I had this wonderful time and Iwas reinvigorated to clear the
planet and I was driving back toFlag.
I get, you know what's coming.
So I get to Muster on time.
Nobody knows that I wasn'tthere.
Um, and then uh after Muster, Iget this uh call to go to the
(33:28):
auditorium because the deputyexecutive director, Kathy West,
wanted to see me.
I'm like, what does she wantnow?
Okay.
This is the most, I mean, how doI describe her?
Did you ever know her?
SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
Kathy West.
I'm trying to think.
I I think I knew a Karen West.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
She was a the best way I could describe her is very
hard, very shrewish.
You know, she'd been inScientology a long time in the
Sea Org, and it really took itstoll on her.
And uh she was not a happyperson.
Anyway, I walk in there and shejust starts screaming at me.
And there's always people inthere, and I walk in and she's
(34:07):
just like, rah! I'm like, oh,here we go, here we go.
And she says, How dare you?
I cannot believe that you wentto see your family when you
don't have that marketingcampaign done.
I'm not kidding.
You're suppressive, you'reruining Scientology.
And that was the moment thatsomething deep inside me went,
(34:30):
Oh, fuck no, I am done with you.
And I just looked at her and Isaid, Yes, sir.
That's what you say, right?
And then she said, You're gonnastay up all night and get that
campaign done.
And I was like, Yes, sir.
But in my head, I knew what Iwas gonna do.
So I went back to my office andI said, Guys, I took, I told all
my staff, you can stay till 10o'clock, but then you're gonna
(34:52):
go home.
This is my problem, and I'mgonna deal with it.
So I sent them all home at 10.
And then I sat in my littlewindowless office for 10 more
hours deciding whether to leave.
That's how long it took.
I sat there going back and forthand back and forth and back and
(35:14):
forth and back and forth.
Um, and I wrote this letter andI kept rewriting it and
rewriting it and rewriting it.
It was something to the effectof I'm done, I'm out of here,
uh, don't come following me.
I knew they would, but don'tcome looking for me.
Um, I'm not coming back.
And you can just blame me foreverything.
Just say I'm suppressive and I'mruining Scientology and it's all
(35:35):
my fault.
I don't care what you say.
Just don't follow me because Iam done.
And finally, I finally printedthat out at eight o'clock in the
morning because I knew if Ididn't leave then it was going
to be too late.
SPEAKER_02 (35:46):
Yeah, your window was closing.
Yes.
People would be coming back intowork and all that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Yep.
So I printed it out, left it onthe desk, walked out with just
my uniform on and a purse.
That's all I had.
Got in the car because I stillhad it.
I hadn't turned it in from thenight before.
Oh, nice.
Okay.
And so I dro I figured there wasan enterprise in Lakeland,
right?
I could drop it off.
So I I got in the car, but Ididn't get in right away.
(36:12):
I walked up to the car and I waslike, I'm really gonna do this.
I mean, after 10 hours, I'mstill doing that.
Wow.
But you know how that feels.
I do, of course.
Back and forth in your head, theback and forth.
I'm giving up everything, I'mleaving everything behind,
everything I thought was true,everything I've devoted my
entire life to, that I've givenup all these other things for.
(36:33):
Nope.
I guess I'm leaving.
I don't know what's ahead of me,but it can't be worse than this,
or maybe it can, but I'm gonnafind out.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
But it it's crazy that in that moment, though, I
think that even if uh and not tospeak for you, but nothing could
be worse than that.
Even worse wouldn't actually beworse, right?
Correct.
Yeah, nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
So I'd finally come to that decision, and I get in
the car and I start driving, andI am panicked the whole time
because it's about an hourdrive.
And the whole time I'm lookingin the rearview mirror, I'm
looking behind me, I'm like,they're here, they're coming,
they're coming, they're coming,they're coming.
They're gonna know I'm gone.
I keep looking at the watch.
Okay, muster's at 9:30, and uhthat gives me another half hour
(37:15):
before they start coming afterme.
So I get to Lakeland and Irealize I can't go to my mom and
dad's house because they knowwhere they live.
I can't go to my youngerbrother's house, who he and his
family lived in Lakeland also.
Well, they still do, becausethey know where they lived,
because they knew everythingabout me, of course.
Of course, but they didn't knowthat my older brother was at the
(37:37):
holiday inn.
SPEAKER_02 (37:38):
So what's your older brother's name, by the way?
Al.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Thank you, Al.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
He was my uh wait till you hear this.
Okay.
So he was my big brother, he's12 years older than me, six foot
two, like 250 pounds, truckdriver.
I've always felt safe with Al,right?
And um, but I got to the holidayin and his truck wasn't there,
his his uh pickup wasn't there,and I freaked.
(38:07):
And I went, Oh my god, they'vealready left.
What am I gonna do?
What am I gonna do?
What am I well?
I'm just gonna go up to the roomand see if they're there.
So I go up to the room, knock onthe door, my sister-in-law opens
the door, goes, What are youdoing here?
And I start bawling, and I said,I left, I'm not going back.
She grabs me, yes me in theroom, slams the door.
(38:28):
She's like, Oh my god, I'm sohappy.
I'm like, I don't know if I'mhappy.
I don't know what I am rightnow, but I'm not going back.
I'm like, where's Al?
Where's Al?
And she goes, He's not here.
I'm like, oh she says, but I'mon the phone with him.
She had her little Motorolarazor phone.
And she hands it to me and hegoes, Baby sister, I've got you.
They're never gonna hurt youagain.
(38:50):
I know.
Makes me tear up a little bitthinking about it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
So do you know what he did?
He said, So I'm about to go on atrip across the country, and
I'll be out for a couple ofweeks.
So I'm gonna get okay for you tocome with me.
SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
So I drove across the country in his truck for two
and a half weeks.
So they could not find me.
Sure, they camped out in frontof my parents' house and my
brother's house for a week ortwo, but they could never get
me.
And then he got back for acouple weeks.
SPEAKER_02 (39:28):
Amazing.
I know.
Gosh, man, thank, thank you,thank you, Al, for being there.
Oh my gosh.
And how surreal was that, by theway, going from like, oh, you
know, stay up all night doingthe and now you're driving in a
truck for two and a half weeksall across the US.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (39:46):
It was insanely weird because all I did for the
first week was this stare outthe window.
Wow.
I couldn't do anything, I wasjust numb.
And to my brother's credit, henever tried to get into a
conversation with me.
He just let me do that.
(40:06):
And what we our little routinewas um he would park at a truck
stop.
I know every truck stop in theUS by now, right?
And and I noticed at the truckstops how nice everybody was,
right?
I'm like, this is not what I wastaught.
Nope.
These people are reallyfriendly.
Hmm.
(40:27):
And uh, you know, so but butwhat we would do is we'd stop at
the truck stop and we'd havedinner, and then he'd go to bed
early, and I would sleep uhacross the two front seats with
a bunch of pillows under me.
It wasn't comfortable, but itwas way better than what I'd
been doing, right?
And I would sleep there untilabout four o'clock in the
morning when he'd wake upbecause he'd had to get on the
(40:48):
road, and then we'd switch and Igo sleep in his back cabin bed,
which was super comfy.
And then I just, you know, hehad bought me a DVD player and
DVDs to watch and books to read,and I just I got to just chill.
Wow, for two and a half weeks.
Yeah, it was great.
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
Watch movies, read books.
It's like you know, the thingswe would only dream about.
SPEAKER_01 (41:11):
We never got to do that, man.
We didn't have TVs.
SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
No, we we Mark and I did, but it had to be under a
blanket, and it was you knowillicit.
We were awesome.
We were just rebellious.
Mark, especially, wasrebellious.
And then if if anyone challengedhim on it, by the way, he'd be
like, Well, I'm in the Cinedivision, uh, where we shoot all
the movies, and you know, so Ihave to do art series eight.
(41:39):
So art series eight is thepolicy that you have to watch.
Yeah, you know, he has an answerfor everything.
It's so smart though.
When when when you're in anargument with Mark, it's the
only time I would ever getfrustrated with him because he
has an answer for everything.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
That's hilarious.
That just makes so much sense,though.
Yeah, so yeah, then I uh endedup going back to uh Lakeland and
live with my I'm just sograteful that I have family
because none of my family evergot into Scientology.
Because I never now this isinteresting.
I had I had thought about thisrecently.
(42:16):
I never tried to get them intoScientology.
Yeah, I didn't want to get theminto Scientology.
Yep.
Why is that?
I wonder.
SPEAKER_02 (42:25):
Yeah, it is interesting.
And it's funny that you saythat.
Um, I mean, in my scenario isdifferent because uh, you know,
being born into it, my siblingswere all in, but I never tried
to get any of my aunts or unclesor cousins into Scientology.
(42:45):
It was um, you know, I mean, wedidn't have a close
relationship, but I never saw mymom certainly never tried to get
her siblings in.
My stepdad, um, he did try toget his sister in.
But it's interesting, uh, and itmakes me like, do you think that
was because in on some level youknew that you didn't want that
(43:07):
for them?
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
I do think that.
Yeah, I really do, because youknow, it was always there was
always this dichotomy in myhead, like I am selling books to
new people and I'm trying to getall these people into
Scientology, but I don't wantthem to go into Scientology.
Yeah, like isn't that it's justweird to think about that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:29):
Yeah, no, you remind me, not and again, not to get
off onto my story, but I I'mfine with it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:35):
I remember we don't know anything about each other,
even though we're each other.
SPEAKER_02 (43:39):
I know it's so crazy.
But yeah, my brother, I mean,technically he's my
half-brother, but I raised my mysiblings from birth to like they
were six, four, and two when Ijoined the C organization.
And for for three years uh afterwe moved to America, my mom and
stepdad never Put me back inschool.
(44:01):
So I was looking after them fromnoon until 10, 10 p.m.
midnight every day.
Um, while my mom worked, mystepdad worked at the Beverly
Hills mission, and um they weredirt poor, uh, you know, all the
money went to Scientology.
Anyhow, my brother, when he was17, I think, and I was internal
(44:25):
executive in RTC, whichbasically meant that I was over
the internal operations, likerecruiting new staff and you
know, staff training and ethicsfor RTC staff, all that kind of
stuff.
Anyway, my brother called mewhen I was eating dinner and
said, Hey, I'm I'm thinkingabout joining the C
organization.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
(44:49):
So, you know what I did?
What I proudly admit because hewas not the best student at the
time.
He hadn't done many Scientologycourses, and I knew he would
fail.
Not as an evil thing.
It's no, you just knew he wasn'tcut out for it.
I knew he wouldn't, he wouldn'tmake it.
And and I also knew very well atthat point that this would
(45:13):
become a huge problem for my momif he joined the C organization
and then failed, because I'dalready said I was gonna fail.
And she was like, Well, you'regonna be on your own then.
There's nothing I can do uh whenI was 16.
Wow.
So so what I did for my brother.
SPEAKER_01 (45:30):
Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
I know, I made him what's called a project prepare.
Yeah, which is basically youneed to get through X, Y, and Z
steps to get ready to join the Corganization.
Except my project Prepare waslike a five-year program.
Nice that he would never getthrough.
Sorry, Robbie, but now you havethree kids, even though you
(45:53):
don't talk to me.
I know you're still drinking theKool-Aid.
I love you anyway, and I didthat for you.
So yeah, and nobody couldoverride it because I was the
internal executive, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
That's right.
Nobody could mess with you.
SPEAKER_02 (46:07):
Yeah.
Oh, honey, anyway.
Anyway, but yeah, okay, so soyou're so you back to you.
So two and a half weeks, and soby the end of that, what like
had you talked to anybody, hadthey, you know, so you tried.
SPEAKER_01 (46:24):
Okay, okay, there was this one time where we were
in the car, I mean in the truck,and my brother gets a call on
his cell phone, and it's flag,and I'm like, how do they know
his phone number?
Because they can find anything,right?
Right.
And um, so they were trying toput on uh this woman, I forget
(46:47):
her name now.
She was my really good, goodfriend at Flag.
She was like my best friend, andthey want she wanted to talk to
me, right?
And he said, This is my brotheron the phone.
I don't know where she is.
Why would she be with me?
I'm a trucker, I'm going acrossthe country.
You guys just lost her.
I don't know what to say, butyou better tell me where she is
(47:08):
because you know.
SPEAKER_02 (47:09):
Nice, you better stop calling me.
Nice, and by the way, it's sofrustrating too that they do
that.
Like they take someone who was agood friend of yours who you
might listen to to try andundermine your efforts to escape
and break free, and to have alife of your own, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
And they'll do they'll try any underhanded
dirty trick.
But my I'm telling you, I justsometimes I feel so incredibly
grateful for my I mean, I dothat every day.
I feel grateful for my familybecause uh I mean, I'm sure I
would have made it on my ownbecause I had friends in
California I could have gone tosee and all this stuff, but the
(47:52):
family support was just there'sthey were such a uh stability
for me.
Yeah, like the first this is agood story.
I I'm talking too much, butwhatever.
No, you're not at all.
Please keep going.
This is a great story.
So I had been, I was staying inthe guest room at my parents'
house, they'd turned it into myroom, and um so and uh I my dad
(48:19):
had this little computer, he hadhis office next door, and it was
this little computer, like backin 2007, they weren't like super
fancy.
But uh the day, like two daysafter I got there, I am in the
office on the computer, like Igotta find a job, I gotta do
something.
I can't just sit here and beunproductive because that's what
you're taught.
You have to be productive allthe time.
(48:41):
My mother walks in and sees medoing this.
She goes, What are you doing?
I said, Mom, I gotta get a job.
I can't just sit here.
And she takes me and she sits medown on the couch.
She says, Let me talk to you fora second.
Do you know what you have to doright now?
I said, What?
She goes, sleep.
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
(49:02):
You just rest and relax and geta lot of sleep because you
haven't had sleep for a longtime, and eat good food, and we
will take care of everything.
And don't you even let me catchyou looking for a job for at
least two months.
SPEAKER_02 (49:17):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
I know it makes me cry.
I mean, right?
Yeah.
So that was how it started, youknow, how my deconstruction
started.
But then I started, you know,the way that I really I mean,
it's been a long process andit'll be it'll go on for the
rest of my life.
I know this.
For sure.
You know this.
It's just a constant unpeelingof layers, right?
SPEAKER_02 (49:40):
It's not a trip, it's a journey.
SPEAKER_01 (49:42):
It is.
SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
I'm enjoying the journey now, though.
I didn't enjoy it for manyyears.
SPEAKER_02 (49:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
But now it's a good journey.
SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:50):
Um, but but yeah, I did not work.
Um, I relaxed and watched oldEnglish TV comedies with my dad.
And it was just, it was so niceto be able to reconnect with
them after all those years.
Think about my mother.
Think about how strong she musthave been.
She didn't even know where I wasalive for 14 years, and she
(50:13):
never once tried to, you know,there was there were no
histrionics, there was no, oh mygod, none of that.
SPEAKER_02 (50:22):
This is a perfect example of the unconditional
love that does not exist inScientology.
SPEAKER_01 (50:30):
I completely agree.
So I know this is kind of odd,but I was looking at the tone
scale once.
The scale of emotions, right?
The emotional tone scale.
Love isn't on the tone scale.
Hate's on the tone scale.
SPEAKER_02 (50:45):
Okay, so so not to get off topic, but I've been I
just got a set of the children'sbooks that they just oh, you did
not.
I did.
If you want to, we could do atalk about it as a separate
episode.
But um, and and it'sspecifically important to me to
expose that as of March, DavidMiscavige is actively this year
(51:10):
targeting children ages sevenand up.
But so the ARC triangle, I wasliterally just thinking about
this this morning, running up mymountain.
Um so the ARC triangle,actually, I was surprised to see
that the word love does appearin there once, but which struck
(51:31):
me because I had looked.
Um, and you're right, love isnot in the language of
Scientology.
No, and here's where did thatcome from?
Right.
And so they've inserted it, buthere's the kicker.
So it outlines, and this iswhat's so destructive and
insidious the ARC triangle,affinity, the feeling of love or
(51:52):
liking for someone, reality,agreement, um, or you know, the
the thing like no the conceptthat oh, we look at a wall and
we agree that it's blue, so wehave that reality, right?
Communication is talking aboutthings, it makes it so
transactional that it breaksdown the very fundamental
(52:15):
foundation of unconditionallove.
And here's how because then, oh,well, I don't agree with
Scientology now.
Oh, boom, done, out.
Yeah, ties cut, it'stransactional, it is
transactional, and it's just noteven a question, and that's
what's so insidious about itbecause you can disagree with
(52:36):
somebody and still love them.
You can people do it all thetime, but not according to
Scientology.
If you don't agree withScientology, we can't have ARC
together.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah, you're out of here.
So they added love in.
That's so interesting.
Just one word, yeah.
Um, you know, and they also, Imean, they use the word
(52:57):
Scientology in these books.
Um, but yeah, anyway, we'llwe'll talk about that
separately.
SPEAKER_01 (53:03):
To break it down, I saw that, Claire, and it just
broke my heart when I saw whathe's doing now, trying to get
these kids in.
Yeah, yeah.
It's because they're desperateat this point because yeah,
adults aren't going in.
Yeah.
If I'd have had the internet at27, I would never, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (53:20):
I mean, I know, I know.
I I did a um a talk for acollege class in Australia, and
it was um fascinating to me thatthey asked specifically and
said, Do you think that ifScientology had been created in
this day and age that it wouldhave, you know, the billions and
(53:43):
of dollars that it has?
I'm like, absolutely not.
No, definitely not, for sure.
No, absolutely.
No way.
No way.
Uh anyway, anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (53:53):
So so that was the beginning of my becoming joyful
again.
I mean, I never lost the joy,but it was really they tried.
Yeah.
They tried to, you know, theythey stripped it away as best
they could, but it came back.
SPEAKER_02 (54:09):
Well, amazing.
I'm so so glad.
Uh thank you, Kathy West, forbeing an evil human and being
that final breaking point thatdrove you out.
And thank you for your strengthand courage.
Thank you, brother Al and youramazing mom.
SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
And my amazing husband that I haven't even
talked about.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
Yes, your amazing husband.
And um, anyway, yeah.
Can you believe it?
We've once again reached the endof our hour.
SPEAKER_01 (54:37):
No, this is going too fast.
SPEAKER_02 (54:40):
I know, I know.
Anyway, I can tell as many timesas you want to come on here and
we can chat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
I'm down from we could even do lives if you want.
We can answer people'squestions.
Yes, I'm gonna open at thispoint.
SPEAKER_02 (54:54):
That would be amazing.
I used to do um Women onWednesday with Amy and Amy
Scoby, and unfortunately, herwork schedule has been too
challenging for her to do that.
But yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's let's um wellanyway.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
I know I'm always got ahead ofmyself.
You're welcome.
Um, I will link to everything inthe description.
(55:17):
Um, if you have questions,viewers for Anne that you'd like
us to cover, drop them in thecomments and we'll we'll we'll
talk more.
I'd love to also hear abouteverything that happened
afterwards and your amazinghusband and all that, but we
will save that for another day.
How about that?
Yeah, we will.
Okay.
Awesome.
Until next time.
(55:37):
I love you, Anne.
Thank you for everything.
Talk to you soon.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (55:43):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have Hail Xenu, Xenu is myhomeboy and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content on aregular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good, behind
(56:05):
the Iron Curtain of Scientologyin hardback, Kindle, and Audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(56:26):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot, until next time.
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