June 9, 2026 • 54 mins
One phone call can change your life, and not always in the way you think. My friend Anne Gollert Hill joined Scientology at 27, because she was in a raw, vulnerable stretch of life where she wanted answers fast. We talk honestly about how grief, shame, and big dreams can make a “helpful” promise feel like a lifeline, and how Scientology recruitment often works by timing, not theology.
Anne walks us through the exact steps that lured her in: a friendly referral to a “nutritional counselor” who quietly used the tone scale, the handoff to a field auditor, the infamous personality test and graph evaluation, and the moment Dianetics auditing felt like instant relief. From there, the Bridge to Total Freedom turns into a sales roadmap: packages, pressure, and the pitch that the next level fixes everything. We also get into the real-world consequences, including credit card debt, sunk cost fallacy, and how training routines like TRs and TR0 bullbait can condition people to accept degradation and control.
Then the story shifts into Scientology’s internal machine: staff contracts, love bombing, purification rundown extremes, invasive clearances, and an accelerated pull into Int management. Anne shares what it’s like to land at Gold Base, end up in central marketing, and write official magazines under relentless micromanagement, all while being told to hide David Miscavige’s role even when everyone inside knows he runs it all.
Listen, then share this with someone who still thinks “only gullible people join cults,” and subscribe, rate, and leave a review to help more people find these Scientology stories.
BFG Store - http://blownforgood-shop.fourthwall.com/
Blown For Good on Audible - https://www.amazon.com/Blown-for-Good-Marc-Headley-audiobook/dp/B07GC6ZKGQ/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
Blown For Good Website: http://blownforgood.com/
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2131160
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/blown-for-good-behind-the-iron-curtain-of-scientology/id1671284503
RSS: https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2131160.rss
YOUTUBE PLAYLISTS:
Spy Files Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWtJfniWLwq4cA-eBNXD...
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:25):
Hello and welcome back to the channel.
I am your host for today, ClaireHeadley, and this will be
another episode of ScientologyStories.
Without further ado, I'm goingto bring on my guest for today,
my very special friend AnneGollert Hill.
Welcome to the channel.
Yay!
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Hi, Claire.
SPEAKER_02 (00:45):
Hello, you too.
I know, absolutely.
And before we get into it, Iwill would like to uh, you know,
we'll uh we'll explain uh andtalk about your story and our
intersections, uh, I guess youwould call it.
Um, but I would also like to sayat the outset that in the video
(01:06):
description, I will link to yourSubstack Anne, uh, your TikTok,
which we'll talk about.
And um, and I'm so excited foryour upcoming memoir.
Yeah.
Um, so before we talk about thatthough, do you want to just give
us an overview of what we'll betalking about today in terms of
your history?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Well, an overview.
That's interesting.
Yes.
I mean, I joined, I didn't growup in Scientology.
I joined when I was 27.
And I joined the C org uh a fewyears later, and I went straight
up to Int management and I metyou.
Uh the first time I met you, youwere still a little thing.
(01:45):
You were young.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yes, I think by my recollection, was that 1993?
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Yeah, that's when I joined up.
That's when I went to Int.
Yeah.
That's what I thought.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
Uh and I you were my key to life course supervisor.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Yes.
In the course.
I know, right?
Oh, we'll we'll talk about thatlater because I have I have so
many thoughts to share becausebecause you I will say from the
get-go that my memories of youare so vivid because you were
like this colorful, beautiful,rambunctious person that stuck
(02:25):
out like a sore thumb in thathellhole.
I know.
My goodness.
I mean, I loved I loved my timewith you, even if it was doing a
stupid uh course that was awaste of time because Hubbard
had to, or not even Hubbard,actually.
That course was not even writtenby Hubbard, but it was his idea
(02:46):
to rewrite grammar, because youknow, I mean, why not?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Oh, why not?
And how many years did I have toundo all of that when I was
started writing again?
It was like, oh, no, but it'sthis way, isn't it?
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
So confusing.
I know.
I know, and I I as a child Iloved grammar and the English
language and all that.
Yeah.
So I had the same, it's likemake sure brain creak trying to
change everything and thenchange it back.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
But no, I got a degree in linguistics.
I love languages.
And then uh I went up there andI had to relearn everything.
And I remember, I'm just gonnatell you this one little thing
because it's an aside.
I remember when uh DavidMiscavige was talking to me
about something.
I don't know, trying to figureout why I wrote a bad article
again.
Who knows?
But we were talking aboutsomething, and I and he said,
(03:36):
You went to college?
I said, Yeah, I have a degree inlinguistics.
He goes, Oh, that's yourproblem.
What an ass.
Right.
But anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
Yes.
Okay, so and and so again foroverview purposes, so you got in
at age 27, and how many yearswere was your, you know,
whatever you want to, I wouldn'tsay career, that's the wrong
word.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I was in till 47.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
Okay, so 20 years in in Scientology, most of which
was in the C organization.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Last majority.
Yes.
Most of it at Int Management,and then when I got kicked to
the curb, I went to FLEG.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Okay.
So we'll talk about that becausethat's where our paths diverged
then.
That's right.
So um I would like to just sharewith everyone, and I know you'll
agree with me.
So even though technically I'veknown you since 1993, um, you
know, obviously it well, maybeit's not obvious, but in the
(04:33):
time, so 1993, and then Iescaped in 2005.
So in all that time, I knewbasically nothing about you.
unknown (04:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
And I knew nothing about you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
We weren't allowed to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
No, I know, exactly.
We were um, you know, strangersin a strange world, right?
unknown (04:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So um, if you don't mind, Iwould love to start with just
hearing for you know directlyfrom you your story of how you
got in in the first place,because it is unusual.
Um, as I mean, not unusual.
What makes your your storysomewhat unique is as you said,
(05:15):
you got in at the age of 27already having a degree and and
other things.
So would you share that with meto start?
Sure.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
So uh, you know, I was always an overachiever, one
of those people did great inschool, got my degree, was gonna
go to uh graduate school and getuh masters, and then I was gonna
go to the UN.
I had all these plans, and thenI met a guy, and I ended up
scrapping all those plans andpissing my parents off and
(05:48):
moving to San Francisco.
And then I divorced him twoyears later.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Sorry, and I should have asked you this moving to
San Francisco from where?
Oh, from uh the Orange County.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
Oh I grew up in Canada, but then we ended up in
Orange County when I was like14.
Oh, okay.
I went to high school there, Iwent to UCLA for school, and
then I moved to San Francisco.
I love San Francisco, but he wasa real controlling person.
And so I didn't see it at first.
My parents certainly did, butyou know, when you're that
(06:21):
young, I was like 22 and I wasgonna do my own thing.
I didn't care.
Yes.
So so I divorced him, and then Iwas having a uh an affair with
my boss who was married and 10years older than me, and that
went on for three years, fouryears.
I could not get out of it.
I was also doing a lot of drugsbecause my ex-husband had turned
(06:44):
me on to cocaine.
I'd never done drugs in highschool, never.
In college, I smoked pot.
And but then afterwards, andthen when I got into this
relationship, my whole life wasbasically falling apart at this
point.
I was always like the best ateverything.
And so I could always handle mylife, and then all of a sudden,
my life was going down thetubes, and I was looking for
(07:06):
answers.
And when you're your mostvulnerable, that's when they get
you 100%.
And I was vulnerable.
And smart and vulnerable is adeadly combination.
For that's a that's a perfectstorm, you know?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:22):
You're right.
That's a really good point, andit's very well stated.
Um, because there are a lot ofpeople that probably actually
represents the adults that Iknow that got in as adults.
It certainly re represents mymom, how she got in.
I mean, she was 17, but youknow, it's like smart and in a
(07:43):
really bad space.
You're right.
It's the perfect um prey forScientology, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
100%.
And not only that, idealistic.
Like I always thought I wasgonna do something big to save
the world.
I just did.
Something in me thought that asa little kid.
Who knew why?
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
And you're doing it now, my friend.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
But they sucked me in, man.
They promised me all this, youknow.
Oh, you're you know, these arethe aims of Scientology.
And I was like, Oh, that soundsgood, right?
Because they do sound good, yes,right.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, the the of course that they have the hook
that um, you know, it doesn'tdon't ask too many questions, as
we now know.
Yeah, um, don't try to insertlogic, but you're right, on the
cover, it sounds like wonderfulthings.
Oh, we can help, we help people,we're working to make the world
a better place and all these.
So, anyway, but back to yourstory.
(08:40):
Keep going.
I'm I'm fascinated.
I'm loving this.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
So I was having a very hard time, and it was, I
think it was a Super Bowl partywhere I I pulled my friend
aside.
She was also my dealer, butthat's you know, whatever.
Neither aside, and she said, Isaid to her, because I was
losing it.
I said, I just don't know what'shappening in my life.
I have no direction, I don'tknow what I'm gonna do.
(09:05):
I could do a lot of things, butI just feel like I've ruined
everything.
And she looked at me and said,Yeah, I get that.
She's not a Scientologist.
This woman was never aScientologist, but she said, I
know this woman, and she helpedme a lot.
She's a nutritional counselorbecause this this friend of mine
was really into you knownutrition, even though she was a
drug dealer.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
Wow, yeah, that's um that's a unique combination,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
And she said, Her name's Rosemary, and I think
that she might give you sometips that could help you.
I was like, okay, I'll go forit.
So I went and met this woman.
Uh, never once did she tell meshe was a Scientologist, but she
did have a tone scale on herwall.
And I didn't know that wasScientology, you know, the scale
of up and down the tone scale.
(09:50):
And I and she would teach me.
It's funny because you're you'rehelping me to remember this
because I had forgotten allabout this that was on her wall.
And she taught me how to use it.
So, like I would have a realissue with somebody I worked
with, like a partner in mybusiness.
And she would teach me, okay, wejust go one tone above where
they are, and you can controlthe conversation.
And I was like, Can you?
(10:11):
I'm gonna try it.
And it worked.
I was like, Oh, okay, this isgood stuff.
And then she would teach me morethings and she would help me
handle certain issues, but Inever told her about the big
problems I was having in mylife.
It was very surface.
But about six months in, Ifinally broke down and I was
just crying.
And she says, What's going on?
And I told her everything thefinancial issues I was having,
(10:34):
the drugs, the affair that Icouldn't get out of all of it.
And she looked at me and she wasvery kind and calm.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Would you like to never
feel that way again?
Would you like this to be gone?
Just like that.
And I looked at her and I went,That's not possible.
She says, Well, actually, it is.
And I know someone who can helpyou.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
What are you gonna do?
I was like, Well, who is thisperson, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yep.
Curiosity killed the cat, right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
Yeah, I did.
Good thing I have nine lives.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Yes, indeed.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
So I went to this guy.
I won't say his name because I'mtrying to be nice.
That may not last forever, butfor now.
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Um, uh, he was a field auditor in Los Gatos,
California.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
Um, and of course, for anyone listening, a field
auditor is somebody who they'renot staff, but their basic role,
and correct me if if you wouldstate it differently, is to
audit new people to bring themin to then feed them into the
organizations to get them movingup the levels.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Yeah, and they have an ulterior motive too.
Yeah, they get paid.
Yes.
If they bring you in, they getpaid a percentage of every
service you do from that pointforward.
SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
So, you know, he had to he he wanted me to do better,
sure, maybe.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
But he was also financially motivated to keep
you on the hook and keep yougoing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yes, and that's what happened.
So, what okay, this is a reallygood story.
I'll tell you this one.
So um, I go into his office andhe's talking to me a little bit
uh about what he does.
And he said, Have you ever heardof Scientology?
And I'm like, No, because thiswas 1987, understand?
(12:21):
There was no internet, there wasno nothing.
And he said, You haven't.
He said no.
I said, No.
He said, You know, the thingsyou've been using with rosemary,
that's Scientology.
I said, It is, and he said,Yeah.
Have you heard of Dianetics?
I said, Oh, yo, you know, thatthing with the volcano on the
cover, that book, yeah, becauseit was all over the TV at the
time, right?
The ads.
SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Yes, to Jefferson Hawkins ads, yes, ended up being
one of my best pals, right?
Yes, may we rest in peace.
Yes, yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Um, but I said, No, I've never, I mean, I've heard
of it, but I've never read it.
He said, Well, this is whatScientology is, and he explained
this whole applied religiousphilosophy nonsense, but I
bought right into it, right?
And he said, It's just to helpthe able become more able, and
you're a very able person, andwe just want to help you do
better.
Okay.
So, so of course he had me takea personality test, the 200
(13:14):
question test that you have totake.
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
Yes.
Do you read through timetablesat the railroad station?
Just for pleasure, just forpleasure.
unknown (13:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:25):
Or or more sinister one is um, do you agree with
corporal punishment of children?
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
There's a lot of crazy questions in there.
And he said, you just answer ithow you feel right now.
And then I'll I'll I'll give youyour results.
I'm like, oh, I like tests.
I do them in, I like personalitytests.
I do them in Cosmo all the time.
So this shouldn't be anydifferent, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
So we I did the test.
It took about 20 minutes.
He takes it to another officebecause he has to print it out
on a graph, brings the graph inand puts it down in front of me.
And it's this graph with 10different personality
characteristics from high tolow, right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
Like uh composed and responsible, responsibility, um,
critical, like uh yeah, there'syeah, yeah, happy, happy and
depressed, and stable andunstable, and all these
personality traits.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Yes, and it marks it on a graph.
So it's like and he looked atthe graph and he looked at me
and he said, Lim, okay, so letme tell you what this graph says
about you.
It says you are highlycommunicative, but also very
critical, and you're verycritical of yourself, and you're
critical of others, but youdon't tell them, but you also
get taken advantage of, andyou're very depressed, but
(14:43):
you're pretending not to be.
And I'm just looking at himlike, How did you know all this?
Because I didn't know this.
You told me this, and that'swhat the graph tells me.
The good thing is we have toolsto handle all of these things.
So sneaky.
Yeah, guess what?
The so of course he just startedby this is the whole thing.
I learned how to do this becauseI was, you know, when I joined
(15:05):
staff after a few years, Ithat's what my job was to get
new people in.
I did it for years.
And so I learned how to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
To evaluate the graphs with the end result being
that they will go do trainingand counseling and in
Scientology.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, you you're finding a ruin, is what it's
called.
Yes.
So what's ruining your life,right?
And then you get them to tellyou, and then you go.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
And the first thing he did and by the way, note for
any uh everyone listening,there's never no ruin.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah, and you're never always something.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
You're never happy, and you know what, you don't
need Scientology.
That is never the answer, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
That is a really good point.
Like, let's say you get a graphand it's all along the top.
What they tell you is, oh,you're just in a I I don't want
to use the terms, but basicallyyou're just being fake.
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
That's not really you.
Uh I I have a word for it that Ijust found.
So in Scientology, the word istheity weedy, right?
That's the word you were goingto say, which is this really
unique word in Scientology thatbasically means yes, you're you
have an inability to confront.
And the closest I'd found tothat um re up until recently was
(16:13):
Pollyanna-ish.
Even perfect.
Like Pollyanna.
But an even better one, in mypersonal opinion, is toxic
positivity.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
That's even better.
And that's exactly what theytell you, right?
Yes.
Like, oh no, this isn't real.
So let's find out what's reallygoing on.
So this is why you get in,right?
To find out who you really are.
It's it's insane, but it worked.
SPEAKER_02 (16:35):
Yeah.
They first thing they use themystery sandwich on you, like,
oh, wait, what?
Really?
Maybe I'm maybe there issomething to this.
Maybe, you know, and and yeah,but go on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Okay, so next, um, the first thing he did is he had
me get a book.
And the book he gave me wasintroduction to Scientology
Ethics, which of course it was,because I was having an affair
and I was doing drugs and I wasdoing all these things, right?
So, of course.
And he said, This is how this isa whole uh it's not he explained
(17:06):
that Scientology ethics wasn'twhat you think, it's it's more
of your personal integrity andhow you deal with the world and
blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, Oh, that soundsinteresting.
Maybe this can help me.
But I didn't read it.
I brought it home, but I didn'tread it because I was busy, you
know, working and stuff.
Yes.
And about a week later, my momcalled me while I was home.
(17:29):
Um, she called me to tell methat one of my best friends, who
was 24 years old at the time,had died.
And I she said he died ofpneumonia.
I knew it was AIDS, and it brokeme.
It broke me because he was.
I mean, I grew up with this guy,and we had some, and I was on
the floor.
I fell to the floor and I wasjust heaving, sobbing, and I
(17:51):
couldn't control it.
Literally 10 minutes later, Iget a call from this guy.
He could not have known thatthis was going on.
He could not have known.
He said, Hi, I just want tocheck in and see how you're
doing with the book.
And I'm just weeping on thephone.
And he just said, Come overright now, I can help you.
He just cut through all of it.
(18:13):
Boom.
And I just took that as acommand, and I went, Okay, I'm
going.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Which it and it was a command, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Exactly.
That's how they're trained.
It is, it was a command.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
And I went to his office, I drove right to his
office.
I'm still hysterically crying.
How I got there, I still don'tknow.
And he met me outside, and hesaid, Well, the first thing
we're gonna do is what's calleda locational.
And he walked around with me andhad he would pointed out things,
look at that tree, and I wouldlook and he'd say, Thank you,
and he'd point out all thesethings, right?
(18:46):
And the idea is to get you outof your head, basically, what
you're stuck in.
And it worked, and I felt alittle bit better, right?
And he said, Okay, now we'regonna go back to the office and
I'm gonna help you.
And I was like, Okay, I didn'tknow what that meant.
Yeah, and he explained whatDianetics auditing was and how
by going through this incidentand then running it through it
(19:10):
over and over and over again,you release what's called charge
from it.
You release the emotionalcontent and you can look at it
rationally.
I was like, hmm, okay, let's tryit.
And he doesn't he didn't chargeme for this because of course
not.
He was trying to get me on thehook, right?
Yes.
So he ran me through thisdianetic session, and it started
(19:30):
with the phone call from my mom,but uh we kept going back to
earlier incidents.
He said, Okay, now you have torecall, and because it wasn't
getting any better.
He goes, Go back to an earliertime when you felt like this or
you had this emotion, right?
We went all the way back to whenI was a little baby girl and my
dog died, and it was so hard.
(19:51):
And I was crying and crying andcrying, and all of a sudden I
realized what it was, and itwent poof, and then all of it
was gone, like all the emotionit was gone.
And I sat up like this.
What did you do?
He said, That's auditing.
I want more of this.
Good.
And that's how it started.
SPEAKER_02 (20:09):
Wow, my goodness.
Oh, golly gee.
And now the story really begins,right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
And now it ramps up because he pointed at on the
wall, the bridge to totalfreedom.
He said, You know what that is?
That's the Scientology Bridge toTotal Freedom.
And I was like, Okay.
And he said, So you start downwhere you are here and you do
all these steps, and at the topyou have total spiritual
freedom, your cause over matter,energy, space, time, life.
(20:39):
I was like, Really?
I want that.
Because you know, I did.
Who doesn't?
Who wouldn't want that?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Right, right.
Especially as we were saying,you you were caught in a
vulnerable, really vulnerabletime.
And then on top of that, theloss of your friend, which I'm
so sorry for, and kind of um hecaught caught you in the perfect
storm.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
It was a perfect storm, it really was.
And I try to explain this topeople because they just don't
understand how people can getcaught up in something like
this.
It's easier than you think.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Right.
Exactly.
And and it is, you know, unlessyou've walked in your shoes.
But but I'm sure I think mostpeople can relate to thinking
back to a time of their lifewhere they felt desperation or
depression or grief or loss orvulnerability, like in an
(21:36):
extreme measure.
And if somebody came to you inthat moment seemingly offering
solutions and help and supportand love, it's it's it's easy to
overlook that you know, thoseemotions and the reality of that
(21:59):
situation as.
An outsider looking in, but youknow, again, you you've
explained it very well.
So, what happened from there?
Okay, so then he took all mymoney.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Okay, basically, he said, Okay, so if you want to do
this, the first thing you haveto do is get to the state of
clear, and clear, you know.
Well, you I'm sure you've talkedabout it a lot, but you're
supposed to have apparently itdidn't work for me because I'm
still wearing glasses.
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
Apparently, I was supposed to get rid of it.
By the way, do you want to knowa fun fact that you probably
don't know?
I was named after the state ofclear.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
No, you were not.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
I was.
My mom told me a hundred timesshe read Dianetics when she was
pregnant with me.
And Clear is French.
Uh sorry, Claire is French forClear.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
Oh my God, Claire.
Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
That's horrible.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Anyway, it kind of ruined thename for me, but it's okay.
I I'll I'll choose to think ofit as Claire, you know, um
French for light instead ofclear.
So there you go.
Anyway, keep going.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Oh, I love that.
So, okay, so he says, so there'stwo ways you can go about this
to get up to clear.
There's two sides to the bridgethere's the auditing side and
the training side.
You go the auditing side,someone delivers the services to
you.
You do the training side, youlearn it yourself, and the two
of you, two people do ittogether to each other.
(23:30):
And I said, I don't want to dothat.
Do this.
I want to do this part.
I don't feel it, I don't havetime for this.
And he's like, he's like, okay,well, it's gonna cost you.
I mean, then he starts into thesales thing, right?
Yeah, and it's uh we sell theseblocks of auditing in in blocks
of 12 and a half hours, and itcost you this much per 12 and a
(23:51):
half hours, or you could do uhthe entire package up to clear,
and it would only cost you$25,000.
And this is 1987.
Oh, did I have$25,000?
No, I did not.
No, and I said$25,000.
Oh, I forgot one part.
Before he sold me that, he did alife repair on me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Okay.
And life repair is of coursecounts uh the counseling step.
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
It's like at the very bottom of the introductory
introductory and it only cost me500 bucks, which was less than a
therapist at the time for thatmany hours.
Right.
So I thought, okay, I'll do liferepair.
By the end of life repair, I wasoff the drugs, I was out of the
bad relationship, I was doingbetter at work, and I was like,
oh, this works.
Great.
(24:39):
That's when he sold me the restof it.
And I didn't have$25,000, but Ihad a credit card.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Oh dear.
Oh, I know where this is going.
unknown (24:49):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
So he says, Um, we can raise the limit on your
credit card.
I said, You can.
He goes, Yeah, sure.
Picks up the phone, calls thebank, gets it raised at$25,000.
Oh no.
Rest is history.
I didn't have that money to payit back.
And he said, Oh, don't worry,because more you go up the
bridge, the more capable you'regonna be, and you're gonna make
(25:11):
so much money, it'll be easy topay back because that's what
they always tell you.
Right?
Insert, eye roll.
Right.
How many broke, destituteScientologists are there out
there?
So many.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
All you hear about is the rich ones who give
millions.
Yeah, you don't hear about Joeeveryday Scientologists who's
got everything on credit cardsand mortgaged up the hilt and
second mortgaged and thirdmortgaged.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Right.
I I would I would guesstimatethat of current active
Scientologists, of which thatnumber is dwindling, I would
estimate that 85 to 95 percentof those active Scientologists
fall into that category ofoverleveraged, holding, you
know, going further and furtherinto debt for the hope that
(25:54):
Scientology will fix it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Right.
And they keep going becauseyou've got the sunk cost
fallacy, right?
I've put so much into it, it'sgotta work.
It's gotta work.
And that happened in the SeaOrg, too.
I had put so many years into it,I didn't want to leave.
Come on, completely 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
Yeah, yes.
Okay, so so go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So he sold me my clear package, and then he
started on the TRs with me,communication course, and he did
the TRs with me, and it was avery uncomfortable experience as
you know how it is.
And uh somehow I just kepttamping it down, you know, when
(26:34):
he would do things or say thingsin these like TR3, which is
where you have to sit there likethis and have the person across
from you say or do anything totry to break you, and he did.
Boy, did he, and it wasdegrading.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Wait, you're talking about bullbait.
Yes, yes, TR0 bullbait.
That's what I meant.
TR0.
Yes, TR3 is the de fish swim orde birds flight.
That's even more bizarre.
But yeah, so TR0.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I get him so wrong, man.
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
No, no, it's okay, it's okay.
But TR, so T you're right, TR0Bullbait.
You're supposed to sit there,you know, glassy eyed,
comfortable, just I mean, theydon't say glassy eyed, but we
were supposed to just be youexactly, we were sitting there
comfortably while your coachdoes anything and everything,
(27:23):
like sexual, physical, abusive,violent, anything.
And you're supposed to just sitthere and and accept it, but go
on.
And I did.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
And uh it took a long time to get past that one.
But that's like for me, that wasthe big whoop where before I was
sort of okay, and then I wasjust a good little robot after
that, man.
Interesting.
I I just sat, I could sit.
It really prepares you to beable to sit and take whatever
(27:57):
gets thrown at you in the SeaOrg, man.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
It conditions you for abuse and a whole lot of
other things, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Sure does.
So I finished those, and then Iwent to he couldn't deliver the
purification rundown at hisfield office because he didn't
have a sauna.
So he took me to Mountain ViewMission.
And a mission, I do peopleunderstand what a mission level
organization is?
Yeah, but but for the just forthe sake of context, it's the
lowest level organization perse, but they don't have they can
(28:29):
only deliver a certain amount ofthings.
SPEAKER_02 (28:32):
Yes, and and again, their purpose is just to get new
people into Scientology and thenforward them onto the bigger
organizations.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Right, right.
So I went in there to do mypurification rundown, and man, I
was clearly fresh meat for thembecause boy, the love bombing
started then.
It was, oh, you're so amazingand wow and high and wonderful.
We love you and you're great andblah, blood.
And I was like, wow, these arereally nice people.
(29:01):
No, they were not really nicepeople.
Yeah, they just wanted me.
And I did that purificationrundown, which involves sitting
in a sauna for five hours a dayand taking up to 5,000
milligrams of niacin.
I think about that now.
How are my liver and kidneysworking?
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
Yeah, I know.
I've uh great question.
I know.
Um, and that those levels ofniacin, I've seen studies that
it's actually carcinogenic totake that high level of niacin.
And also, of course, it goeswithout saying, um, Hubbard had
zero credentials to come up withthis program.
He did zero research.
His research was, oh, I know anidea, as my kids like to say.
(29:41):
Let's stick people in saunas andgive them huge amounts of
vitamins, and drugs are lodgedin tissues, of which there's no
scientific evidence that I'veever seen that that's the case.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
And this is that was a lot of yeah, that was a lot of
what I did afterwards is duginto all these things to find
out the truth, to re-deconstructall this, right?
Yes, yes, man.
And I so I was in there fivehours a day, you know, taking
all that niacin.
And by the end of thepurification rundown, um, I
mean, I had been earmarked forstaff, I will tell you that.
(30:14):
And they had been slowly talkingto me about working in an
organization and how cool it is,and you can do it part-time
while you still have your otherbusiness and bloody dee dee dee
dee dee.
And I went, oh, part-time, sure,I can do that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01 (30:30):
Yeah, and then the mission turned into an org, a
class five organization.
It was a whole big deal, right?
And I was part of that, and thenit was like we were class five
org staff, which is muchtougher.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Yes, and you're then required to sign a two and a
half or five-year contract.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Which one did you opt for?
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Well, I started with two and a half and quickly went
to five because I was working somuch there that I let all of my
other stuff go by the wayside.
I had no business anymore.
I had no nothing, I had nomoney, so I had to work there,
right?
Yeah, sleep on people's couches.
That's basically what happened.
I didn't have anything.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
Okay, I have a question.
So, and just for context again,so all this is happening.
What are your parents thinking?
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
They weren't they didn't live in San Francisco and
we hadn't spoken for this.
It was a problem because wehadn't spoken for years because
they were so upset about thisguy that I married.
They didn't even come to thewedding.
Um, and we did speak a littlebit after I divorced him, but
there was still a big riftbetween us that I had not
resolved.
(31:45):
So they weren't there to saveme, basically.
Fair enough.
Understood.
And I was doing my own thing.
And it's like I was right, I was100% right what I was doing.
I knew it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Of course, as you are, right?
When I mean, hey, my kids areteenagers now, and oh boy, let
me tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
Yeah, when you're that age, wait, Claire, wait,
you're gonna get older.
My grandkids are starting to bemy grand, my oldest
granddaughter is going to highschool next year.
I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Wow, no, yeah, I know my middle my middle son,
his high school graduation waslast night.
I was bawling like a baby.
Oh uh, yeah, it's gives megoosebumps.
It's just crazy now to thinkI've two kids who graduated high
school, and my little guy isalready a teenager.
Anyway, back to your story.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
It's so amazing though that you have this,
right?
It makes me so happy for you.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
And likewise, I'm so glad you have grandchildren and
all of that, and getting toexperience that in you know, a
literal second life, right?
It has been a second life, abeautiful second life.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
Yes.
Back to the crap, yes.
So I get I joined staff, I'm instaff, we're in a class five
org, and every class five org uhhas what's called a flag rep
flag representative, which is aC org member that's installed
into that organization to makesure that you're operating per
(33:11):
whatever L.
Ron Hubbard wants you to do,right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yes, and they're also the eyes and ears, they
report up to management onanything askew, things like
that, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
Yeah.
And he uh I like this guy, thisEnglish guy.
And his name was Andrew Bradley.
SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
I knew it.
That's how I got in the Sea Orggirl.
Oh my god, goodness.
I know I was thinking about itwhat before our conversation.
I was like, I was thinking tothe year that I first met you
and how old I was at that time,which I was um uh 17, 18.
Yeah, I was 18 when I first metyou, but I was remembering that
(33:52):
you were Andrew, uh Ann Bradley.
Anne Bradley, yes.
That's right.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
Everybody used to call me Brad.
Dan Kuhn still calls me Brad.
Really?
That's really funny.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Oh, that is funny.
I didn't know that.
I never heard you called that,but that's okay.
Um in the in marketing, I wasBrad.
I see.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
Anyway, so I met him and we kind of you know hit it
off.
And of course, Sea Org memberscan't have relationships outside
of the Sea Org.
You can't even have them in, butanyway.
Um, but we wanted to getmarried, we decided we really
loved each other and we wantedto be together, and we
petitioned ED Int, ExecutiveDirector International, to be
(34:34):
able to uh get married, and Iwould say you being staff, yeah.
But I said I would sign a C orgcontract, okay, but we wouldn't
go right away because you knowwe had things to do, and he
said, sure.
He he approved it with thecaveat that I had to activate my
C org contract when called to doso.
Okay, so I really hadn't signedthe contract yet.
(34:56):
I said, but I eventually want tojoin the Sea Org, is what I
said.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Okay, but but also let me ask, but you're are you
allowed to get married rightaway?
He let us get married.
Seriously, wow, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
But then but then there's always a but then one
week later, you were called agroup of people come into the
org with all their epaulettesand their uniforms.
The int writers mission comesinto the org, and their whole
task was to extract me so that Icould go from this organization
(35:33):
straight up to int management asa writer.
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
My gosh, so you're not even in the C organization
yet.
Wow.
Okay, okay, go on.
You understand this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
Most people don't understand what a big deal that
is.
SPEAKER_02 (35:47):
I do, and and I'll I'll provide the context in my
words and feel free to add in.
But generally speaking, um toget to get moved to the imp
base, even though it's worsethan Supermax, you don't know
that you know, when you're inScientology, you think, oh wow,
that's that's an amazing honor,right?
(36:08):
Right.
But the qualifications to getthere are really rigorous.
And one of the qualifications isthat in most cases, you have to
have at least a year productionrecord as a member of the sea
organization.
So that's that's why I'm going,oh my gosh, you weren't even in
(36:29):
the sea organization yet.
And in comes this missionsaying, We we're gonna get you
into the sea organization andyou're gonna go on a fast track
straight to Golden EraProductions for the for the
writers to be a writer.
SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
And that's exactly what happened.
I did my clearances, but I saidthe only way I'm gonna do this
is if he comes with me.
They were gonna take my husband,but they had to because I wasn't
going unless they took him.
Isn't that crazy story?
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
Yes, so crazy.
And again, uh footnote to sayI've known you since 1993 and
I've never known any of this.
See?
Well, when were we gonna talkabout this?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
All we could do was produce.
We weren't allowed to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
No, and and talking wouldn't nothing good would have
would have come from having aconversation because oh no, oh
no, you were talking to whoabout what?
Right.
Wow.
Okay, go on.
I'm this is yeah, this isfascinating.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Yeah, so I did my clearances, and this is the
crazy part.
I had gotten auditing up to andthrough grade four, and then I
had gotten my new era dianeticsauditing, which is right before
you clear, right?
Yeah, I'd gotten some okay inthe class five org.
And when I was on my clearances,um, I had to get all this extra.
(37:50):
You'll understand this, butmaybe you can put it in.
So you have to fill out a lifehistory, which is everything
about you, everything'sliterally position.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
Everything, yeah.
Every sexual position, everyfamily member, everything,
everything you've ever done.
If you're connected to any govanyone in the government, anyone
in the media, anyone in the CIA,anyone in the FBI, like
literally everything where yourfriends live.
Yeah, all of it.
Um, all of it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
So I fill out this thing, and then you get um sex
checked or interrogated on themeter on all of these things to
make sure you didn't leaveanything out.
Gotta make sure.
Well, when that that happened,and then everything was packaged
up and sent up to for me to goup to uh gold, gold air
(38:38):
production.
SPEAKER_02 (38:38):
Because it has to be approved by like 10 people, 10
to 15 people, including all theway up to religious technology
center.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:46):
And Marty Rathbun was the final approval term
person on this, and he said,with that uh sexual history, you
need to give her uh 2DFPRD,which is you explain what that
is.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
Yeah, so so again, in so in Scientology, there are
the dynamics, which is the urgesto survival.
The second dynamic is sex,family, etc.
And so false purpose rundown iswhere you identify your evil
purposes that are causing you tonot survive well in a certain
area.
So this, so you were Martybasically said you had you must
(39:22):
have evil purposes in the areaof sex and family, and therefore
he was requiring that you getthat addressed before you could
get approved.
Did I sum that up, Farer?
unknown (39:31):
Perfect!
SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
Okay, way better than I could do.
unknown (39:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (39:35):
So so then they started me auditing me on that,
and I went clear on my endclearances.
SPEAKER_02 (39:43):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
Yeah, and I didn't know, and they were like, Yeah,
you have to go test a clear now.
I'm like, what?
I didn't know what any of thatwas.
I just went, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Wow, and that's that's really unusual.
Um, because I'm an unusualperson, Claire.
No, no, no, it's just uniquebecause again, for anyone
listening, um, generallyspeaking, and especially now
would absolutely be the case,the belief is that, or it, you
know, whatever belief, thepractice is that you when you
(40:16):
attain the state of clear, youyou're doing dianetics auditing.
So FPRD is a false purposerundown, is not dianetic
auditing.
That's why that's on stands outto me.
But go ahead.
So they put me on the clearcertainty rundown.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Okay.
I did that, then I attested toclear, and it was a big deal
because that had never happenedon clearance lines.
And ooh, you know, so I was evenmore special then.
Yes.
And shortly after that, um, Igot approved to go.
So I get in the van.
You know, it was a oh, I was soexcited.
(40:52):
I was so excited because I'vebeen told about how incredible
this is such a privilege and anhonor, and nobody even knows how
amazing it is there.
SPEAKER_02 (41:02):
And and again, for context, did you know physically
where you were going?
Hell no.
Right.
I didn't even know where I wasgoing.
Yep, because you're not you werenot allowed to know until you're
physically arrived there, right?
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Correct.
So they're driving me anddriving for driving for a little
while in the van.
And she's like, We're gettingcloser.
I'm like looking around and it'sall desert.
And I'm like, where are wegoing?
And she says, wait, you'll seeit as we come around the corner.
It's green and lush andbeautiful, and all I saw was the
chapel with the Scientologything on, right?
SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
Which is where I worked at the time.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
That's where you were.
And uh, and I get there, andthere's like all this fencing
and gates and barbed wire, andI'm like, well, it must be great
inside.
SPEAKER_02 (41:52):
I'm sorry.
I'm I'm I'm laughing with you,not at you.
Now, you know, we've we've bothhad that moment.
Uh oh my gosh, in retrospect.
Like, yeah, like what am Idoing?
Yeah, it's too late now.
SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Yeah, we're here now, no turning back.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What would you say to yourself,your your that self in this
moment, right now?
Like if you could talk.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Do you see the barbed wire?
Go jump out of the van.
That's what I would have said.
Right.
I mean, that's what I say now.
But then I mean you're soconditioned.
SPEAKER_02 (42:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:30):
And your mind is gone.
I mean, you're not your mind,but your your sense of critical
thinking is gone.
SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
Yeah.
And then not to mention thefact, physically, you are
literally in the middle ofnowhere with no car, no, there's
no Uber back then.
You wouldn't, you didn't have aphone.
I mean, literally, physicaloptions were very limited in
that moment, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
There was nothing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
So they drive me in all the way up to um, well, it's
now the whole, but what wasbefore?
SPEAKER_02 (43:03):
Oh, um, it was, I mean, um, what did they call it?
It used to be Del Sol.
Yeah, Del Sol.
Yeah, the the Int buildings.
Uh because it was Del Sol wasthen became auditing room.
So but the double wide trailerswas referred to as Int back then
before it became the whole.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Right.
So they drove me up there andthey brought me in because I was
gonna meet uh the person who wasgonna take me around the base
and show me everything, andbecause they hadn't decided
where they were gonna put meyet.
Okay, I was a hot commodity.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yeah, were the writers were going to be posted
in Golden Era Productions or inthe Int Management PR office?
Both places, and they both werefighting for me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
I was having a little, you know, back and
forth, and they were telling methe best parts about this and
the best parts about that.
And um, but the first thing Iwalk in to the uh Building and
Ed walks out.
Guillaume walks out.
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
The one who approved you to marry your husband.
SPEAKER_01 (44:07):
And I said to and I, and you know me, I'm very
woohoo.
And he's looking at me likethis.
Because they're not used tohaving anybody bubbly.
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (44:18):
As I said at the bit at the start of this
conversation, that's what stoodout to me about you from day
one.
I was like, wow.
It's like uh if if the wholeworld was black and white, you
were this technicolor, likefairy uh beautiful burst of like
energy and like wow, this youwere not the the people that I
(44:42):
was used to seeing around there.
That's so sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
But what happened?
They tried to break me.
I know, especially Miss Gavin.
She tried to break me, but hedidn't do it.
Here I am.
Same.
Yeah, right.
But but I told him, I said, Ohmy god, oh my god, it's easy.
Oh my god, all I'd ever seen himon was like big video screens of
these big international events,and there he was standing in
front of me.
And I said, Hi, hi, I'm AnnBradley, and you approve my
(45:09):
petition at CSW to get marriedand join the Sea Org when I was
called to do so.
I guess this is the time.
And he looks at me and he goes,Oh, okay, welcome.
And I was like, I thought you'dbe more excited than that, but
all right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:26):
To be fair, he probably looked gray and hadn't
had much sleep because he nevergot much sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
No, he looked very dull, smaller than I thought.
Yeah, but everybody did.
Yeah.
You know, everybody looked dulland gray and horrible except for
one person.
Who was that?
Who do you think?
You know, David Miscavige.
SPEAKER_02 (45:47):
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
He just looked angry and mean.
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
Yeah, for sure.
He's like the the black cloudfloating like not floating,
stomping.
SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
Ah anyway, so that's how I got there.
And then I ended up in uhcentral marketing unit, which I
loved.
I walked in there and I saw allthese people like doing all
these wild things and talkingabout it.
It just looked lively.
And I thought, well, these aremy people.
I like them, they're prettylively.
Yeah, and um, and that's wherethey posted me in central
(46:20):
marketing, and then I ended upbeing the senior magazine editor
and doing all the Scientologymagazines, which I did not want
to do, but I ended up doing thatfor years.
Yeah, being personally overseenby his highness, which was a
nightmare.
Talk about a talk about like whywould he have to look at every
single thing I wrote?
(46:41):
But that's who how he was,right?
Micromanager supreme.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Yeah, I know, I know.
I think it's hard for people tounderstand too the level.
I mean, there was nothing,nothing could happen in
Scientology without hisapproval.
But let me ask you this, becauseI have a so I have another
memory that I would love to getyour thoughts on.
So um so yes, I was yoursupervisor, but then in and then
(47:08):
I spent a year in Clearwater,Florida.
Um, and when I was brought backto the property, so now we're
talking 1997, and I was put in Iby now I I was in Religious
Technology Center and I was thedirector of correction for AVC.
Remember the authorization,verification, correction.
(47:29):
Yeah.
Uh if if I was ever an assholeto you, I apologize.
You never.
Excuse my language, but youknow, I uh not to interrupt you,
I'll let you say your piece, butthere are so many times that I
had had so little sleep, or waslike, you know, do this, or
you're going to therehabilitation project for us.
I never lost my humanity, butthere are certainly
(47:53):
interactions, and you know, it'sall about you you were the
receiving end of some of whatI'm about to talk about.
SPEAKER_01 (48:00):
Well, I don't remember you being anything but
um good to me.
Um you were mostly after the youknow, you were a different
person, sadly, from the personthat I knew when we were doing
the training.
SPEAKER_02 (48:18):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
So you were very removed.
But I think you were holdingyourself back so that you
weren't you didn't do anythingworse.
Yeah.
That's how it felt to me.
Like kind of holding it in soyou didn't yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
But but so this memory that I have is I was in
this role of correction and Iwas supposed to work with all
the marketing staff to make surethat nothing that you wrote
indicated that David Miscavigeran everything.
Do you remember that?
Oh yes!
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
I forgot.
Yep.
Oh my god, but he did runeverything.
He did be very careful aboutthat and make sure that he we
did not let on.
SPEAKER_02 (49:07):
Yeah, and it was being overseen by Lyman
Spurlock.
Yes, because it tied in with theum the IRS tax exemption and
also ongoing lawsuits, of whichwe were, you and I both were
clueless in that moment.
Like I didn't know why I washaving to do this work with you
(49:28):
to, you know, have you read thisand this and this.
And I we just knew thatwhatever, that's the order of
the day.
I was just curious if youremembered that and your
thoughts on it, because I I justhave a the distinct remembrance
of this assignment I was giventhat had to result in marketing
people writing and you writingstuff that didn't tell the truth
(49:50):
about David Miscavige's role inScientology.
SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
It's shocking how much I wrote that wasn't true.
It was almost everything Iwrote.
Like, like, imagine having tosay, like this was, I think, for
the high winds magazine, or partof it was because the high winds
magazine was promoting the seaorganization, right?
Yes, and we could not say oreven hint that David Miscavige
(50:16):
had anything to do with thethings that were going on in the
Sea Org day to day when we knewhe had everything to do with it.
SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
Yes, so much so that nothing happened day to day
unless he approved it.
Nothing, nothing or and not onlyapproved it, but also had
ordered that it be done in thefirst place, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:35):
And and and everything he said was recorded.
And when you like, for example,I would write a magazine or put
a magazine together, and thenhe'd go through it.
We'd have to go into this bigconference room and sit while he
tore it apart.
Everything he said was recorded,and then you'd have to read all
of his recorded transcripts andclear up any word you didn't
(50:58):
fully understand and make surethat you knew exactly what he
wanted and then fix it.
And this went on over and overand over and over again.
It was ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Yeah, and I and I remember so many times the the
deadlines and the people stayingup or all night to get things
done and like crazy all night,like try to write a magazine
when you had no sleep for threedays, right?
SPEAKER_01 (51:24):
So then of course it just gets worse and worse, and
then you end up breaking rocksin the sun on the decks with a
guard over you, you know.
Yeah, because I wrote a badarticle for the free ones.
SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
Yeah, that's ridiculous.
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Well, this hour has flown by.
It has not been an hour,basically.
Yeah, I know.
Can you imagine?
So, as I warned you, I I ifyou're good for it, because I
don't I don't want toshortchange your the next part
of the story of what comes next,because I I have I uh I mean
(51:57):
everyone's story is amazing, butyour story is amazing, and I
would love to, if you're up forit, do a part two with you.
Of course.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And and and yeah, and I justwant to say, uh like literally,
it's mind-boggling to me thatI've learned more about you.
I mean, obviously, you're you'rea dear friend, but I'm so glad
(52:18):
we're just taking this time toexplore your story.
Thank you for your courage andyour bravery and your
persistence and for breakingfree and being the beautiful,
amazing human that I saw you tobe.
Um, I just want to say that.
And I'm I'm so glad that youryour memoir is coming out and
you seeing your success onTikTok.
(52:39):
And anyway, just super gratefulfor that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:41):
So I'm super grateful for you because you've
always been nothing but lovingto me.
Thank you.
And that's what it's all about,isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
It is.
It is peace, love, faith, andhappiness, and and exposing
Scientology for the deadly,dangerous, and abusive cult that
it is.
SPEAKER_01 (53:00):
Yes, let's let's let's continue this at a at
another time.
SPEAKER_02 (53:04):
Amazing.
And hey, for anyone tuning in,watching part one, if there are
questions you would like us tocover in part two, drop them in
the comments.
You're an amazing person, andit's been absolutely like I
said, this hour has flown by.
It really has.
I'm really looking forward tohearing the next part of the
story, which is going to betougher, but also includes you
(53:24):
breaking free.
So I everyone I adore you, andI'm just so happy we got to do
this.
Me too, me too.
Alrighty.
Well, with that, till n untilnext time, we'll talk to you
soon.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have Hail Zenu, Xenu is myhomeboy, and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content on aregular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good, behind
(54:01):
the Iron Curtain of Scientology,in hardback, Kindle, and Audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(54:22):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot.
Until next time.
Hello and welcome back to the channel.
I am your host for today, ClaireHeadley, and this will be
another episode of ScientologyStories.
Without further ado, I'm goingto bring on my guest for today,
my very special friend AnneGollert Hill.
Welcome to the channel.
Yay!
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Hi, Claire.
SPEAKER_02 (00:45):
Hello, you too.
I know, absolutely.
And before we get into it, Iwill would like to uh, you know,
we'll uh we'll explain uh andtalk about your story and our
intersections, uh, I guess youwould call it.
Um, but I would also like to sayat the outset that in the video
(01:06):
description, I will link to yourSubstack Anne, uh, your TikTok,
which we'll talk about.
And um, and I'm so excited foryour upcoming memoir.
Yeah.
Um, so before we talk about thatthough, do you want to just give
us an overview of what we'll betalking about today in terms of
your history?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Well, an overview.
That's interesting.
Yes.
I mean, I joined, I didn't growup in Scientology.
I joined when I was 27.
And I joined the C org uh a fewyears later, and I went straight
up to Int management and I metyou.
Uh the first time I met you, youwere still a little thing.
(01:45):
You were young.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yes, I think by my recollection, was that 1993?
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Yeah, that's when I joined up.
That's when I went to Int.
Yeah.
That's what I thought.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
Uh and I you were my key to life course supervisor.
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Yes.
In the course.
I know, right?
Oh, we'll we'll talk about thatlater because I have I have so
many thoughts to share becausebecause you I will say from the
get-go that my memories of youare so vivid because you were
like this colorful, beautiful,rambunctious person that stuck
(02:25):
out like a sore thumb in thathellhole.
I know.
My goodness.
I mean, I loved I loved my timewith you, even if it was doing a
stupid uh course that was awaste of time because Hubbard
had to, or not even Hubbard,actually.
That course was not even writtenby Hubbard, but it was his idea
(02:46):
to rewrite grammar, because youknow, I mean, why not?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Oh, why not?
And how many years did I have toundo all of that when I was
started writing again?
It was like, oh, no, but it'sthis way, isn't it?
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
So confusing.
I know.
I know, and I I as a child Iloved grammar and the English
language and all that.
Yeah.
So I had the same, it's likemake sure brain creak trying to
change everything and thenchange it back.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
But no, I got a degree in linguistics.
I love languages.
And then uh I went up there andI had to relearn everything.
And I remember, I'm just gonnatell you this one little thing
because it's an aside.
I remember when uh DavidMiscavige was talking to me
about something.
I don't know, trying to figureout why I wrote a bad article
again.
Who knows?
But we were talking aboutsomething, and I and he said,
(03:36):
You went to college?
I said, Yeah, I have a degree inlinguistics.
He goes, Oh, that's yourproblem.
What an ass.
Right.
But anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
Yes.
Okay, so and and so again foroverview purposes, so you got in
at age 27, and how many yearswere was your, you know,
whatever you want to, I wouldn'tsay career, that's the wrong
word.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I was in till 47.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
Okay, so 20 years in in Scientology, most of which
was in the C organization.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Last majority.
Yes.
Most of it at Int Management,and then when I got kicked to
the curb, I went to FLEG.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Okay.
So we'll talk about that becausethat's where our paths diverged
then.
That's right.
So um I would like to just sharewith everyone, and I know you'll
agree with me.
So even though technically I'veknown you since 1993, um, you
know, obviously it well, maybeit's not obvious, but in the
(04:33):
time, so 1993, and then Iescaped in 2005.
So in all that time, I knewbasically nothing about you.
unknown (04:41):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
And I knew nothing about you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
We weren't allowed to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
No, I know, exactly.
We were um, you know, strangersin a strange world, right?
unknown (04:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So um, if you don't mind, Iwould love to start with just
hearing for you know directlyfrom you your story of how you
got in in the first place,because it is unusual.
Um, as I mean, not unusual.
What makes your your storysomewhat unique is as you said,
(05:15):
you got in at the age of 27already having a degree and and
other things.
So would you share that with meto start?
Sure.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
So uh, you know, I was always an overachiever, one
of those people did great inschool, got my degree, was gonna
go to uh graduate school and getuh masters, and then I was gonna
go to the UN.
I had all these plans, and thenI met a guy, and I ended up
scrapping all those plans andpissing my parents off and
(05:48):
moving to San Francisco.
And then I divorced him twoyears later.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Sorry, and I should have asked you this moving to
San Francisco from where?
Oh, from uh the Orange County.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
Oh I grew up in Canada, but then we ended up in
Orange County when I was like14.
Oh, okay.
I went to high school there, Iwent to UCLA for school, and
then I moved to San Francisco.
I love San Francisco, but he wasa real controlling person.
And so I didn't see it at first.
My parents certainly did, butyou know, when you're that
(06:21):
young, I was like 22 and I wasgonna do my own thing.
I didn't care.
Yes.
So so I divorced him, and then Iwas having a uh an affair with
my boss who was married and 10years older than me, and that
went on for three years, fouryears.
I could not get out of it.
I was also doing a lot of drugsbecause my ex-husband had turned
(06:44):
me on to cocaine.
I'd never done drugs in highschool, never.
In college, I smoked pot.
And but then afterwards, andthen when I got into this
relationship, my whole life wasbasically falling apart at this
point.
I was always like the best ateverything.
And so I could always handle mylife, and then all of a sudden,
my life was going down thetubes, and I was looking for
(07:06):
answers.
And when you're your mostvulnerable, that's when they get
you 100%.
And I was vulnerable.
And smart and vulnerable is adeadly combination.
For that's a that's a perfectstorm, you know?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:22):
You're right.
That's a really good point, andit's very well stated.
Um, because there are a lot ofpeople that probably actually
represents the adults that Iknow that got in as adults.
It certainly re represents mymom, how she got in.
I mean, she was 17, but youknow, it's like smart and in a
(07:43):
really bad space.
You're right.
It's the perfect um prey forScientology, right?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
100%.
And not only that, idealistic.
Like I always thought I wasgonna do something big to save
the world.
I just did.
Something in me thought that asa little kid.
Who knew why?
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
And you're doing it now, my friend.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
But they sucked me in, man.
They promised me all this, youknow.
Oh, you're you know, these arethe aims of Scientology.
And I was like, Oh, that soundsgood, right?
Because they do sound good, yes,right.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, the the of course that they have the hook
that um, you know, it doesn'tdon't ask too many questions, as
we now know.
Yeah, um, don't try to insertlogic, but you're right, on the
cover, it sounds like wonderfulthings.
Oh, we can help, we help people,we're working to make the world
a better place and all these.
So, anyway, but back to yourstory.
(08:40):
Keep going.
I'm I'm fascinated.
I'm loving this.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
So I was having a very hard time, and it was, I
think it was a Super Bowl partywhere I I pulled my friend
aside.
She was also my dealer, butthat's you know, whatever.
Neither aside, and she said, Isaid to her, because I was
losing it.
I said, I just don't know what'shappening in my life.
I have no direction, I don'tknow what I'm gonna do.
(09:05):
I could do a lot of things, butI just feel like I've ruined
everything.
And she looked at me and said,Yeah, I get that.
She's not a Scientologist.
This woman was never aScientologist, but she said, I
know this woman, and she helpedme a lot.
She's a nutritional counselorbecause this this friend of mine
was really into you knownutrition, even though she was a
drug dealer.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
Wow, yeah, that's um that's a unique combination,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
And she said, Her name's Rosemary, and I think
that she might give you sometips that could help you.
I was like, okay, I'll go forit.
So I went and met this woman.
Uh, never once did she tell meshe was a Scientologist, but she
did have a tone scale on herwall.
And I didn't know that wasScientology, you know, the scale
of up and down the tone scale.
(09:50):
And I and she would teach me.
It's funny because you're you'rehelping me to remember this
because I had forgotten allabout this that was on her wall.
And she taught me how to use it.
So, like I would have a realissue with somebody I worked
with, like a partner in mybusiness.
And she would teach me, okay, wejust go one tone above where
they are, and you can controlthe conversation.
And I was like, Can you?
(10:11):
I'm gonna try it.
And it worked.
I was like, Oh, okay, this isgood stuff.
And then she would teach me morethings and she would help me
handle certain issues, but Inever told her about the big
problems I was having in mylife.
It was very surface.
But about six months in, Ifinally broke down and I was
just crying.
And she says, What's going on?
And I told her everything thefinancial issues I was having,
(10:34):
the drugs, the affair that Icouldn't get out of all of it.
And she looked at me and she wasvery kind and calm.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Would you like to never
feel that way again?
Would you like this to be gone?
Just like that.
And I looked at her and I went,That's not possible.
She says, Well, actually, it is.
And I know someone who can helpyou.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
What are you gonna do?
I was like, Well, who is thisperson, right?
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yep.
Curiosity killed the cat, right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
Yeah, I did.
Good thing I have nine lives.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Yes, indeed.
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
So I went to this guy.
I won't say his name because I'mtrying to be nice.
That may not last forever, butfor now.
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Um, uh, he was a field auditor in Los Gatos,
California.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
Um, and of course, for anyone listening, a field
auditor is somebody who they'renot staff, but their basic role,
and correct me if if you wouldstate it differently, is to
audit new people to bring themin to then feed them into the
organizations to get them movingup the levels.
SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Yeah, and they have an ulterior motive too.
Yeah, they get paid.
Yes.
If they bring you in, they getpaid a percentage of every
service you do from that pointforward.
SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
So, you know, he had to he he wanted me to do better,
sure, maybe.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
But he was also financially motivated to keep
you on the hook and keep yougoing.
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Yes, and that's what happened.
So, what okay, this is a reallygood story.
I'll tell you this one.
So um, I go into his office andhe's talking to me a little bit
uh about what he does.
And he said, Have you ever heardof Scientology?
And I'm like, No, because thiswas 1987, understand?
(12:21):
There was no internet, there wasno nothing.
And he said, You haven't.
He said no.
I said, No.
He said, You know, the thingsyou've been using with rosemary,
that's Scientology.
I said, It is, and he said,Yeah.
Have you heard of Dianetics?
I said, Oh, yo, you know, thatthing with the volcano on the
cover, that book, yeah, becauseit was all over the TV at the
time, right?
The ads.
SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Yes, to Jefferson Hawkins ads, yes, ended up being
one of my best pals, right?
Yes, may we rest in peace.
Yes, yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Um, but I said, No, I've never, I mean, I've heard
of it, but I've never read it.
He said, Well, this is whatScientology is, and he explained
this whole applied religiousphilosophy nonsense, but I
bought right into it, right?
And he said, It's just to helpthe able become more able, and
you're a very able person, andwe just want to help you do
better.
Okay.
So, so of course he had me takea personality test, the 200
(13:14):
question test that you have totake.
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
Yes.
Do you read through timetablesat the railroad station?
Just for pleasure, just forpleasure.
unknown (13:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:25):
Or or more sinister one is um, do you agree with
corporal punishment of children?
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
There's a lot of crazy questions in there.
And he said, you just answer ithow you feel right now.
And then I'll I'll I'll give youyour results.
I'm like, oh, I like tests.
I do them in, I like personalitytests.
I do them in Cosmo all the time.
So this shouldn't be anydifferent, right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
So we I did the test.
It took about 20 minutes.
He takes it to another officebecause he has to print it out
on a graph, brings the graph inand puts it down in front of me.
And it's this graph with 10different personality
characteristics from high tolow, right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
Like uh composed and responsible, responsibility, um,
critical, like uh yeah, there'syeah, yeah, happy, happy and
depressed, and stable andunstable, and all these
personality traits.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Yes, and it marks it on a graph.
So it's like and he looked atthe graph and he looked at me
and he said, Lim, okay, so letme tell you what this graph says
about you.
It says you are highlycommunicative, but also very
critical, and you're verycritical of yourself, and you're
critical of others, but youdon't tell them, but you also
get taken advantage of, andyou're very depressed, but
(14:43):
you're pretending not to be.
And I'm just looking at himlike, How did you know all this?
Because I didn't know this.
You told me this, and that'swhat the graph tells me.
The good thing is we have toolsto handle all of these things.
So sneaky.
Yeah, guess what?
The so of course he just startedby this is the whole thing.
I learned how to do this becauseI was, you know, when I joined
(15:05):
staff after a few years, Ithat's what my job was to get
new people in.
I did it for years.
And so I learned how to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
To evaluate the graphs with the end result being
that they will go do trainingand counseling and in
Scientology.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, you you're finding a ruin, is what it's
called.
Yes.
So what's ruining your life,right?
And then you get them to tellyou, and then you go.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
And the first thing he did and by the way, note for
any uh everyone listening,there's never no ruin.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah, and you're never always something.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
You're never happy, and you know what, you don't
need Scientology.
That is never the answer, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
That is a really good point.
Like, let's say you get a graphand it's all along the top.
What they tell you is, oh,you're just in a I I don't want
to use the terms, but basicallyyou're just being fake.
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
That's not really you.
Uh I I have a word for it that Ijust found.
So in Scientology, the word istheity weedy, right?
That's the word you were goingto say, which is this really
unique word in Scientology thatbasically means yes, you're you
have an inability to confront.
And the closest I'd found tothat um re up until recently was
(16:13):
Pollyanna-ish.
Even perfect.
Like Pollyanna.
But an even better one, in mypersonal opinion, is toxic
positivity.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
That's even better.
And that's exactly what theytell you, right?
Yes.
Like, oh no, this isn't real.
So let's find out what's reallygoing on.
So this is why you get in,right?
To find out who you really are.
It's it's insane, but it worked.
SPEAKER_02 (16:35):
Yeah.
They first thing they use themystery sandwich on you, like,
oh, wait, what?
Really?
Maybe I'm maybe there issomething to this.
Maybe, you know, and and yeah,but go on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Okay, so next, um, the first thing he did is he had
me get a book.
And the book he gave me wasintroduction to Scientology
Ethics, which of course it was,because I was having an affair
and I was doing drugs and I wasdoing all these things, right?
So, of course.
And he said, This is how this isa whole uh it's not he explained
(17:06):
that Scientology ethics wasn'twhat you think, it's it's more
of your personal integrity andhow you deal with the world and
blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, Oh, that soundsinteresting.
Maybe this can help me.
But I didn't read it.
I brought it home, but I didn'tread it because I was busy, you
know, working and stuff.
Yes.
And about a week later, my momcalled me while I was home.
(17:29):
Um, she called me to tell methat one of my best friends, who
was 24 years old at the time,had died.
And I she said he died ofpneumonia.
I knew it was AIDS, and it brokeme.
It broke me because he was.
I mean, I grew up with this guy,and we had some, and I was on
the floor.
I fell to the floor and I wasjust heaving, sobbing, and I
(17:51):
couldn't control it.
Literally 10 minutes later, Iget a call from this guy.
He could not have known thatthis was going on.
He could not have known.
He said, Hi, I just want tocheck in and see how you're
doing with the book.
And I'm just weeping on thephone.
And he just said, Come overright now, I can help you.
He just cut through all of it.
(18:13):
Boom.
And I just took that as acommand, and I went, Okay, I'm
going.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
Which it and it was a command, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Exactly.
That's how they're trained.
It is, it was a command.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
And I went to his office, I drove right to his
office.
I'm still hysterically crying.
How I got there, I still don'tknow.
And he met me outside, and hesaid, Well, the first thing
we're gonna do is what's calleda locational.
And he walked around with me andhad he would pointed out things,
look at that tree, and I wouldlook and he'd say, Thank you,
and he'd point out all thesethings, right?
(18:46):
And the idea is to get you outof your head, basically, what
you're stuck in.
And it worked, and I felt alittle bit better, right?
And he said, Okay, now we'regonna go back to the office and
I'm gonna help you.
And I was like, Okay, I didn'tknow what that meant.
Yeah, and he explained whatDianetics auditing was and how
by going through this incidentand then running it through it
(19:10):
over and over and over again,you release what's called charge
from it.
You release the emotionalcontent and you can look at it
rationally.
I was like, hmm, okay, let's tryit.
And he doesn't he didn't chargeme for this because of course
not.
He was trying to get me on thehook, right?
Yes.
So he ran me through thisdianetic session, and it started
(19:30):
with the phone call from my mom,but uh we kept going back to
earlier incidents.
He said, Okay, now you have torecall, and because it wasn't
getting any better.
He goes, Go back to an earliertime when you felt like this or
you had this emotion, right?
We went all the way back to whenI was a little baby girl and my
dog died, and it was so hard.
(19:51):
And I was crying and crying andcrying, and all of a sudden I
realized what it was, and itwent poof, and then all of it
was gone, like all the emotionit was gone.
And I sat up like this.
What did you do?
He said, That's auditing.
I want more of this.
Good.
And that's how it started.
SPEAKER_02 (20:09):
Wow, my goodness.
Oh, golly gee.
And now the story really begins,right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
And now it ramps up because he pointed at on the
wall, the bridge to totalfreedom.
He said, You know what that is?
That's the Scientology Bridge toTotal Freedom.
And I was like, Okay.
And he said, So you start downwhere you are here and you do
all these steps, and at the topyou have total spiritual
freedom, your cause over matter,energy, space, time, life.
(20:39):
I was like, Really?
I want that.
Because you know, I did.
Who doesn't?
Who wouldn't want that?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Right, right.
Especially as we were saying,you you were caught in a
vulnerable, really vulnerabletime.
And then on top of that, theloss of your friend, which I'm
so sorry for, and kind of um hecaught caught you in the perfect
storm.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
It was a perfect storm, it really was.
And I try to explain this topeople because they just don't
understand how people can getcaught up in something like
this.
It's easier than you think.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Right.
Exactly.
And and it is, you know, unlessyou've walked in your shoes.
But but I'm sure I think mostpeople can relate to thinking
back to a time of their lifewhere they felt desperation or
depression or grief or loss orvulnerability, like in an
(21:36):
extreme measure.
And if somebody came to you inthat moment seemingly offering
solutions and help and supportand love, it's it's it's easy to
overlook that you know, thoseemotions and the reality of that
(21:59):
situation as.
An outsider looking in, but youknow, again, you you've
explained it very well.
So, what happened from there?
Okay, so then he took all mymoney.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Okay, basically, he said, Okay, so if you want to do
this, the first thing you haveto do is get to the state of
clear, and clear, you know.
Well, you I'm sure you've talkedabout it a lot, but you're
supposed to have apparently itdidn't work for me because I'm
still wearing glasses.
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
Apparently, I was supposed to get rid of it.
By the way, do you want to knowa fun fact that you probably
don't know?
I was named after the state ofclear.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
No, you were not.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
I was.
My mom told me a hundred timesshe read Dianetics when she was
pregnant with me.
And Clear is French.
Uh sorry, Claire is French forClear.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
Oh my God, Claire.
Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
That's horrible.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Anyway, it kind of ruined thename for me, but it's okay.
I I'll I'll choose to think ofit as Claire, you know, um
French for light instead ofclear.
So there you go.
Anyway, keep going.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Oh, I love that.
So, okay, so he says, so there'stwo ways you can go about this
to get up to clear.
There's two sides to the bridgethere's the auditing side and
the training side.
You go the auditing side,someone delivers the services to
you.
You do the training side, youlearn it yourself, and the two
of you, two people do ittogether to each other.
(23:30):
And I said, I don't want to dothat.
Do this.
I want to do this part.
I don't feel it, I don't havetime for this.
And he's like, he's like, okay,well, it's gonna cost you.
I mean, then he starts into thesales thing, right?
Yeah, and it's uh we sell theseblocks of auditing in in blocks
of 12 and a half hours, and itcost you this much per 12 and a
(23:51):
half hours, or you could do uhthe entire package up to clear,
and it would only cost you$25,000.
And this is 1987.
Oh, did I have$25,000?
No, I did not.
No, and I said$25,000.
Oh, I forgot one part.
Before he sold me that, he did alife repair on me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Okay.
And life repair is of coursecounts uh the counseling step.
SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
It's like at the very bottom of the introductory
introductory and it only cost me500 bucks, which was less than a
therapist at the time for thatmany hours.
Right.
So I thought, okay, I'll do liferepair.
By the end of life repair, I wasoff the drugs, I was out of the
bad relationship, I was doingbetter at work, and I was like,
oh, this works.
Great.
(24:39):
That's when he sold me the restof it.
And I didn't have$25,000, but Ihad a credit card.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Oh dear.
Oh, I know where this is going.
unknown (24:49):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
So he says, Um, we can raise the limit on your
credit card.
I said, You can.
He goes, Yeah, sure.
Picks up the phone, calls thebank, gets it raised at$25,000.
Oh no.
Rest is history.
I didn't have that money to payit back.
And he said, Oh, don't worry,because more you go up the
bridge, the more capable you'regonna be, and you're gonna make
(25:11):
so much money, it'll be easy topay back because that's what
they always tell you.
Right?
Insert, eye roll.
Right.
How many broke, destituteScientologists are there out
there?
So many.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
All you hear about is the rich ones who give
millions.
Yeah, you don't hear about Joeeveryday Scientologists who's
got everything on credit cardsand mortgaged up the hilt and
second mortgaged and thirdmortgaged.
SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Right.
I I would I would guesstimatethat of current active
Scientologists, of which thatnumber is dwindling, I would
estimate that 85 to 95 percentof those active Scientologists
fall into that category ofoverleveraged, holding, you
know, going further and furtherinto debt for the hope that
(25:54):
Scientology will fix it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Right.
And they keep going becauseyou've got the sunk cost
fallacy, right?
I've put so much into it, it'sgotta work.
It's gotta work.
And that happened in the SeaOrg, too.
I had put so many years into it,I didn't want to leave.
Come on, completely 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
Yeah, yes.
Okay, so so go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So he sold me my clear package, and then he
started on the TRs with me,communication course, and he did
the TRs with me, and it was avery uncomfortable experience as
you know how it is.
And uh somehow I just kepttamping it down, you know, when
(26:34):
he would do things or say thingsin these like TR3, which is
where you have to sit there likethis and have the person across
from you say or do anything totry to break you, and he did.
Boy, did he, and it wasdegrading.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Wait, you're talking about bullbait.
Yes, yes, TR0 bullbait.
That's what I meant.
TR0.
Yes, TR3 is the de fish swim orde birds flight.
That's even more bizarre.
But yeah, so TR0.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
I get him so wrong, man.
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
No, no, it's okay, it's okay.
But TR, so T you're right, TR0Bullbait.
You're supposed to sit there,you know, glassy eyed,
comfortable, just I mean, theydon't say glassy eyed, but we
were supposed to just be youexactly, we were sitting there
comfortably while your coachdoes anything and everything,
(27:23):
like sexual, physical, abusive,violent, anything.
And you're supposed to just sitthere and and accept it, but go
on.
And I did.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
And uh it took a long time to get past that one.
But that's like for me, that wasthe big whoop where before I was
sort of okay, and then I wasjust a good little robot after
that, man.
Interesting.
I I just sat, I could sit.
It really prepares you to beable to sit and take whatever
(27:57):
gets thrown at you in the SeaOrg, man.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
It conditions you for abuse and a whole lot of
other things, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Sure does.
So I finished those, and then Iwent to he couldn't deliver the
purification rundown at hisfield office because he didn't
have a sauna.
So he took me to Mountain ViewMission.
And a mission, I do peopleunderstand what a mission level
organization is?
Yeah, but but for the just forthe sake of context, it's the
lowest level organization perse, but they don't have they can
(28:29):
only deliver a certain amount ofthings.
SPEAKER_02 (28:32):
Yes, and and again, their purpose is just to get new
people into Scientology and thenforward them onto the bigger
organizations.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Right, right.
So I went in there to do mypurification rundown, and man, I
was clearly fresh meat for thembecause boy, the love bombing
started then.
It was, oh, you're so amazingand wow and high and wonderful.
We love you and you're great andblah, blood.
And I was like, wow, these arereally nice people.
(29:01):
No, they were not really nicepeople.
Yeah, they just wanted me.
And I did that purificationrundown, which involves sitting
in a sauna for five hours a dayand taking up to 5,000
milligrams of niacin.
I think about that now.
How are my liver and kidneysworking?
SPEAKER_02 (29:17):
Yeah, I know.
I've uh great question.
I know.
Um, and that those levels ofniacin, I've seen studies that
it's actually carcinogenic totake that high level of niacin.
And also, of course, it goeswithout saying, um, Hubbard had
zero credentials to come up withthis program.
He did zero research.
His research was, oh, I know anidea, as my kids like to say.
(29:41):
Let's stick people in saunas andgive them huge amounts of
vitamins, and drugs are lodgedin tissues, of which there's no
scientific evidence that I'veever seen that that's the case.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
And this is that was a lot of yeah, that was a lot of
what I did afterwards is duginto all these things to find
out the truth, to re-deconstructall this, right?
Yes, yes, man.
And I so I was in there fivehours a day, you know, taking
all that niacin.
And by the end of thepurification rundown, um, I
mean, I had been earmarked forstaff, I will tell you that.
(30:14):
And they had been slowly talkingto me about working in an
organization and how cool it is,and you can do it part-time
while you still have your otherbusiness and bloody dee dee dee
dee dee.
And I went, oh, part-time, sure,I can do that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01 (30:30):
Yeah, and then the mission turned into an org, a
class five organization.
It was a whole big deal, right?
And I was part of that, and thenit was like we were class five
org staff, which is muchtougher.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Yes, and you're then required to sign a two and a
half or five-year contract.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Which one did you opt for?
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Well, I started with two and a half and quickly went
to five because I was working somuch there that I let all of my
other stuff go by the wayside.
I had no business anymore.
I had no nothing, I had nomoney, so I had to work there,
right?
Yeah, sleep on people's couches.
That's basically what happened.
I didn't have anything.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
Okay, I have a question.
So, and just for context again,so all this is happening.
What are your parents thinking?
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
They weren't they didn't live in San Francisco and
we hadn't spoken for this.
It was a problem because wehadn't spoken for years because
they were so upset about thisguy that I married.
They didn't even come to thewedding.
Um, and we did speak a littlebit after I divorced him, but
there was still a big riftbetween us that I had not
resolved.
(31:45):
So they weren't there to saveme, basically.
Fair enough.
Understood.
And I was doing my own thing.
And it's like I was right, I was100% right what I was doing.
I knew it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Of course, as you are, right?
When I mean, hey, my kids areteenagers now, and oh boy, let
me tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
Yeah, when you're that age, wait, Claire, wait,
you're gonna get older.
My grandkids are starting to bemy grand, my oldest
granddaughter is going to highschool next year.
I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Wow, no, yeah, I know my middle my middle son,
his high school graduation waslast night.
I was bawling like a baby.
Oh uh, yeah, it's gives megoosebumps.
It's just crazy now to thinkI've two kids who graduated high
school, and my little guy isalready a teenager.
Anyway, back to your story.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
It's so amazing though that you have this,
right?
It makes me so happy for you.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
And likewise, I'm so glad you have grandchildren and
all of that, and getting toexperience that in you know, a
literal second life, right?
It has been a second life, abeautiful second life.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
Yes.
Back to the crap, yes.
So I get I joined staff, I'm instaff, we're in a class five
org, and every class five org uhhas what's called a flag rep
flag representative, which is aC org member that's installed
into that organization to makesure that you're operating per
(33:11):
whatever L.
Ron Hubbard wants you to do,right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yes, and they're also the eyes and ears, they
report up to management onanything askew, things like
that, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
Yeah.
And he uh I like this guy, thisEnglish guy.
And his name was Andrew Bradley.
SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
I knew it.
That's how I got in the Sea Orggirl.
Oh my god, goodness.
I know I was thinking about itwhat before our conversation.
I was like, I was thinking tothe year that I first met you
and how old I was at that time,which I was um uh 17, 18.
Yeah, I was 18 when I first metyou, but I was remembering that
(33:52):
you were Andrew, uh Ann Bradley.
Anne Bradley, yes.
That's right.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
Everybody used to call me Brad.
Dan Kuhn still calls me Brad.
Really?
That's really funny.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Oh, that is funny.
I didn't know that.
I never heard you called that,but that's okay.
Um in the in marketing, I wasBrad.
I see.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
Anyway, so I met him and we kind of you know hit it
off.
And of course, Sea Org memberscan't have relationships outside
of the Sea Org.
You can't even have them in, butanyway.
Um, but we wanted to getmarried, we decided we really
loved each other and we wantedto be together, and we
petitioned ED Int, ExecutiveDirector International, to be
(34:34):
able to uh get married, and Iwould say you being staff, yeah.
But I said I would sign a C orgcontract, okay, but we wouldn't
go right away because you knowwe had things to do, and he
said, sure.
He he approved it with thecaveat that I had to activate my
C org contract when called to doso.
Okay, so I really hadn't signedthe contract yet.
(34:56):
I said, but I eventually want tojoin the Sea Org, is what I
said.
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Okay, but but also let me ask, but you're are you
allowed to get married rightaway?
He let us get married.
Seriously, wow, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
But then but then there's always a but then one
week later, you were called agroup of people come into the
org with all their epaulettesand their uniforms.
The int writers mission comesinto the org, and their whole
task was to extract me so that Icould go from this organization
(35:33):
straight up to int management asa writer.
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
My gosh, so you're not even in the C organization
yet.
Wow.
Okay, okay, go on.
You understand this.
SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
Most people don't understand what a big deal that
is.
SPEAKER_02 (35:47):
I do, and and I'll I'll provide the context in my
words and feel free to add in.
But generally speaking, um toget to get moved to the imp
base, even though it's worsethan Supermax, you don't know
that you know, when you're inScientology, you think, oh wow,
that's that's an amazing honor,right?
(36:08):
Right.
But the qualifications to getthere are really rigorous.
And one of the qualifications isthat in most cases, you have to
have at least a year productionrecord as a member of the sea
organization.
So that's that's why I'm going,oh my gosh, you weren't even in
(36:29):
the sea organization yet.
And in comes this missionsaying, We we're gonna get you
into the sea organization andyou're gonna go on a fast track
straight to Golden EraProductions for the for the
writers to be a writer.
SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
And that's exactly what happened.
I did my clearances, but I saidthe only way I'm gonna do this
is if he comes with me.
They were gonna take my husband,but they had to because I wasn't
going unless they took him.
Isn't that crazy story?
SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
Yes, so crazy.
And again, uh footnote to sayI've known you since 1993 and
I've never known any of this.
See?
Well, when were we gonna talkabout this?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
All we could do was produce.
We weren't allowed to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
No, and and talking wouldn't nothing good would have
would have come from having aconversation because oh no, oh
no, you were talking to whoabout what?
Right.
Wow.
Okay, go on.
I'm this is yeah, this isfascinating.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Yeah, so I did my clearances, and this is the
crazy part.
I had gotten auditing up to andthrough grade four, and then I
had gotten my new era dianeticsauditing, which is right before
you clear, right?
Yeah, I'd gotten some okay inthe class five org.
And when I was on my clearances,um, I had to get all this extra.
(37:50):
You'll understand this, butmaybe you can put it in.
So you have to fill out a lifehistory, which is everything
about you, everything'sliterally position.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
Everything, yeah.
Every sexual position, everyfamily member, everything,
everything you've ever done.
If you're connected to any govanyone in the government, anyone
in the media, anyone in the CIA,anyone in the FBI, like
literally everything where yourfriends live.
Yeah, all of it.
Um, all of it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
So I fill out this thing, and then you get um sex
checked or interrogated on themeter on all of these things to
make sure you didn't leaveanything out.
Gotta make sure.
Well, when that that happened,and then everything was packaged
up and sent up to for me to goup to uh gold, gold air
(38:38):
production.
SPEAKER_02 (38:38):
Because it has to be approved by like 10 people, 10
to 15 people, including all theway up to religious technology
center.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:46):
And Marty Rathbun was the final approval term
person on this, and he said,with that uh sexual history, you
need to give her uh 2DFPRD,which is you explain what that
is.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
Yeah, so so again, in so in Scientology, there are
the dynamics, which is the urgesto survival.
The second dynamic is sex,family, etc.
And so false purpose rundown iswhere you identify your evil
purposes that are causing you tonot survive well in a certain
area.
So this, so you were Martybasically said you had you must
(39:22):
have evil purposes in the areaof sex and family, and therefore
he was requiring that you getthat addressed before you could
get approved.
Did I sum that up, Farer?
unknown (39:31):
Perfect!
SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
Okay, way better than I could do.
unknown (39:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (39:35):
So so then they started me auditing me on that,
and I went clear on my endclearances.
SPEAKER_02 (39:43):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
Yeah, and I didn't know, and they were like, Yeah,
you have to go test a clear now.
I'm like, what?
I didn't know what any of thatwas.
I just went, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Wow, and that's that's really unusual.
Um, because I'm an unusualperson, Claire.
No, no, no, it's just uniquebecause again, for anyone
listening, um, generallyspeaking, and especially now
would absolutely be the case,the belief is that, or it, you
know, whatever belief, thepractice is that you when you
(40:16):
attain the state of clear, youyou're doing dianetics auditing.
So FPRD is a false purposerundown, is not dianetic
auditing.
That's why that's on stands outto me.
But go ahead.
So they put me on the clearcertainty rundown.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Okay.
I did that, then I attested toclear, and it was a big deal
because that had never happenedon clearance lines.
And ooh, you know, so I was evenmore special then.
Yes.
And shortly after that, um, Igot approved to go.
So I get in the van.
You know, it was a oh, I was soexcited.
(40:52):
I was so excited because I'vebeen told about how incredible
this is such a privilege and anhonor, and nobody even knows how
amazing it is there.
SPEAKER_02 (41:02):
And and again, for context, did you know physically
where you were going?
Hell no.
Right.
I didn't even know where I wasgoing.
Yep, because you're not you werenot allowed to know until you're
physically arrived there, right?
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Correct.
So they're driving me anddriving for driving for a little
while in the van.
And she's like, We're gettingcloser.
I'm like looking around and it'sall desert.
And I'm like, where are wegoing?
And she says, wait, you'll seeit as we come around the corner.
It's green and lush andbeautiful, and all I saw was the
chapel with the Scientologything on, right?
SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
Which is where I worked at the time.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
That's where you were.
And uh, and I get there, andthere's like all this fencing
and gates and barbed wire, andI'm like, well, it must be great
inside.
SPEAKER_02 (41:52):
I'm sorry.
I'm I'm I'm laughing with you,not at you.
Now, you know, we've we've bothhad that moment.
Uh oh my gosh, in retrospect.
Like, yeah, like what am Idoing?
Yeah, it's too late now.
SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Yeah, we're here now, no turning back.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What would you say to yourself,your your that self in this
moment, right now?
Like if you could talk.
SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
Do you see the barbed wire?
Go jump out of the van.
That's what I would have said.
Right.
I mean, that's what I say now.
But then I mean you're soconditioned.
SPEAKER_02 (42:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:30):
And your mind is gone.
I mean, you're not your mind,but your your sense of critical
thinking is gone.
SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
Yeah.
And then not to mention thefact, physically, you are
literally in the middle ofnowhere with no car, no, there's
no Uber back then.
You wouldn't, you didn't have aphone.
I mean, literally, physicaloptions were very limited in
that moment, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
There was nothing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
So they drive me in all the way up to um, well, it's
now the whole, but what wasbefore?
SPEAKER_02 (43:03):
Oh, um, it was, I mean, um, what did they call it?
It used to be Del Sol.
Yeah, Del Sol.
Yeah, the the Int buildings.
Uh because it was Del Sol wasthen became auditing room.
So but the double wide trailerswas referred to as Int back then
before it became the whole.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Right.
So they drove me up there andthey brought me in because I was
gonna meet uh the person who wasgonna take me around the base
and show me everything, andbecause they hadn't decided
where they were gonna put meyet.
Okay, I was a hot commodity.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yeah, were the writers were going to be posted
in Golden Era Productions or inthe Int Management PR office?
Both places, and they both werefighting for me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
I was having a little, you know, back and
forth, and they were telling methe best parts about this and
the best parts about that.
And um, but the first thing Iwalk in to the uh Building and
Ed walks out.
Guillaume walks out.
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
The one who approved you to marry your husband.
SPEAKER_01 (44:07):
And I said to and I, and you know me, I'm very
woohoo.
And he's looking at me likethis.
Because they're not used tohaving anybody bubbly.
No, no.
SPEAKER_02 (44:18):
As I said at the bit at the start of this
conversation, that's what stoodout to me about you from day
one.
I was like, wow.
It's like uh if if the wholeworld was black and white, you
were this technicolor, likefairy uh beautiful burst of like
energy and like wow, this youwere not the the people that I
(44:42):
was used to seeing around there.
That's so sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
But what happened?
They tried to break me.
I know, especially Miss Gavin.
She tried to break me, but hedidn't do it.
Here I am.
Same.
Yeah, right.
But but I told him, I said, Ohmy god, oh my god, it's easy.
Oh my god, all I'd ever seen himon was like big video screens of
these big international events,and there he was standing in
front of me.
And I said, Hi, hi, I'm AnnBradley, and you approve my
(45:09):
petition at CSW to get marriedand join the Sea Org when I was
called to do so.
I guess this is the time.
And he looks at me and he goes,Oh, okay, welcome.
And I was like, I thought you'dbe more excited than that, but
all right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:26):
To be fair, he probably looked gray and hadn't
had much sleep because he nevergot much sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
No, he looked very dull, smaller than I thought.
Yeah, but everybody did.
Yeah.
You know, everybody looked dulland gray and horrible except for
one person.
Who was that?
Who do you think?
You know, David Miscavige.
SPEAKER_02 (45:47):
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
He just looked angry and mean.
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
Yeah, for sure.
He's like the the black cloudfloating like not floating,
stomping.
SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
Ah anyway, so that's how I got there.
And then I ended up in uhcentral marketing unit, which I
loved.
I walked in there and I saw allthese people like doing all
these wild things and talkingabout it.
It just looked lively.
And I thought, well, these aremy people.
I like them, they're prettylively.
Yeah, and um, and that's wherethey posted me in central
(46:20):
marketing, and then I ended upbeing the senior magazine editor
and doing all the Scientologymagazines, which I did not want
to do, but I ended up doing thatfor years.
Yeah, being personally overseenby his highness, which was a
nightmare.
Talk about a talk about like whywould he have to look at every
single thing I wrote?
(46:41):
But that's who how he was,right?
Micromanager supreme.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Yeah, I know, I know.
I think it's hard for people tounderstand too the level.
I mean, there was nothing,nothing could happen in
Scientology without hisapproval.
But let me ask you this, becauseI have a so I have another
memory that I would love to getyour thoughts on.
So um so yes, I was yoursupervisor, but then in and then
(47:08):
I spent a year in Clearwater,Florida.
Um, and when I was brought backto the property, so now we're
talking 1997, and I was put in Iby now I I was in Religious
Technology Center and I was thedirector of correction for AVC.
Remember the authorization,verification, correction.
(47:29):
Yeah.
Uh if if I was ever an assholeto you, I apologize.
You never.
Excuse my language, but youknow, I uh not to interrupt you,
I'll let you say your piece, butthere are so many times that I
had had so little sleep, or waslike, you know, do this, or
you're going to therehabilitation project for us.
I never lost my humanity, butthere are certainly
(47:53):
interactions, and you know, it'sall about you you were the
receiving end of some of whatI'm about to talk about.
SPEAKER_01 (48:00):
Well, I don't remember you being anything but
um good to me.
Um you were mostly after the youknow, you were a different
person, sadly, from the personthat I knew when we were doing
the training.
SPEAKER_02 (48:18):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
So you were very removed.
But I think you were holdingyourself back so that you
weren't you didn't do anythingworse.
Yeah.
That's how it felt to me.
Like kind of holding it in soyou didn't yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
But but so this memory that I have is I was in
this role of correction and Iwas supposed to work with all
the marketing staff to make surethat nothing that you wrote
indicated that David Miscavigeran everything.
Do you remember that?
Oh yes!
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
I forgot.
Yep.
Oh my god, but he did runeverything.
He did be very careful aboutthat and make sure that he we
did not let on.
SPEAKER_02 (49:07):
Yeah, and it was being overseen by Lyman
Spurlock.
Yes, because it tied in with theum the IRS tax exemption and
also ongoing lawsuits, of whichwe were, you and I both were
clueless in that moment.
Like I didn't know why I washaving to do this work with you
(49:28):
to, you know, have you read thisand this and this.
And I we just knew thatwhatever, that's the order of
the day.
I was just curious if youremembered that and your
thoughts on it, because I I justhave a the distinct remembrance
of this assignment I was giventhat had to result in marketing
people writing and you writingstuff that didn't tell the truth
(49:50):
about David Miscavige's role inScientology.
SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
It's shocking how much I wrote that wasn't true.
It was almost everything Iwrote.
Like, like, imagine having tosay, like this was, I think, for
the high winds magazine, or partof it was because the high winds
magazine was promoting the seaorganization, right?
Yes, and we could not say oreven hint that David Miscavige
(50:16):
had anything to do with thethings that were going on in the
Sea Org day to day when we knewhe had everything to do with it.
SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
Yes, so much so that nothing happened day to day
unless he approved it.
Nothing, nothing or and not onlyapproved it, but also had
ordered that it be done in thefirst place, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:35):
And and and everything he said was recorded.
And when you like, for example,I would write a magazine or put
a magazine together, and thenhe'd go through it.
We'd have to go into this bigconference room and sit while he
tore it apart.
Everything he said was recorded,and then you'd have to read all
of his recorded transcripts andclear up any word you didn't
(50:58):
fully understand and make surethat you knew exactly what he
wanted and then fix it.
And this went on over and overand over and over again.
It was ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Yeah, and I and I remember so many times the the
deadlines and the people stayingup or all night to get things
done and like crazy all night,like try to write a magazine
when you had no sleep for threedays, right?
SPEAKER_01 (51:24):
So then of course it just gets worse and worse, and
then you end up breaking rocksin the sun on the decks with a
guard over you, you know.
Yeah, because I wrote a badarticle for the free ones.
SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
Yeah, that's ridiculous.
Yeah, oh my goodness.
Well, this hour has flown by.
It has not been an hour,basically.
Yeah, I know.
Can you imagine?
So, as I warned you, I I ifyou're good for it, because I
don't I don't want toshortchange your the next part
of the story of what comes next,because I I have I uh I mean
(51:57):
everyone's story is amazing, butyour story is amazing, and I
would love to, if you're up forit, do a part two with you.
Of course.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And and and yeah, and I justwant to say, uh like literally,
it's mind-boggling to me thatI've learned more about you.
I mean, obviously, you're you'rea dear friend, but I'm so glad
(52:18):
we're just taking this time toexplore your story.
Thank you for your courage andyour bravery and your
persistence and for breakingfree and being the beautiful,
amazing human that I saw you tobe.
Um, I just want to say that.
And I'm I'm so glad that youryour memoir is coming out and
you seeing your success onTikTok.
(52:39):
And anyway, just super gratefulfor that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:41):
So I'm super grateful for you because you've
always been nothing but lovingto me.
Thank you.
And that's what it's all about,isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
It is.
It is peace, love, faith, andhappiness, and and exposing
Scientology for the deadly,dangerous, and abusive cult that
it is.
SPEAKER_01 (53:00):
Yes, let's let's let's continue this at a at
another time.
SPEAKER_02 (53:04):
Amazing.
And hey, for anyone tuning in,watching part one, if there are
questions you would like us tocover in part two, drop them in
the comments.
You're an amazing person, andit's been absolutely like I
said, this hour has flown by.
It really has.
I'm really looking forward tohearing the next part of the
story, which is going to betougher, but also includes you
(53:24):
breaking free.
So I everyone I adore you, andI'm just so happy we got to do
this.
Me too, me too.
Alrighty.
Well, with that, till n untilnext time, we'll talk to you
soon.
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Thanks for watching.
If you'd like to help supportthe channel, feel free to check
out the merch store link in thedescription.
We have Hail Zenu, Xenu is myhomeboy, and BFG branded mouse
pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts ofother stuff in there that helps
us to bring you new content on aregular basis.
You can also pick up a copy ofmy book, Blown for Good, behind
(54:01):
the Iron Curtain of Scientology,in hardback, Kindle, and Audible
versions as well.
There's also a link to ourpodcast, and you can get that on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to podcasts.
And if you'd like to watchanother video, you can click on
this link right here, or you canclick on this one here, or you
(54:22):
can click on the subscribebutton right here.
Thanks a lot.
Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.