Do Pastors have the Authority and Ability to Forgive sins? I Q&A I BBB 61.1

Join us for the edition of stump the theologian as Joel answers the question: Do Pastors have the Authority and Ability to Forgive sins? www.brainsandbibles.orgwww.thinklikechrist.org

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We have a special edition of Stump the Theologian.
Now, to be fair, I actually gaveJoel a heads up on this question
about 10 minutes ago. Yeah.
Then when I completely catch himoff guard, I want to make sure
he, he knew that the passage wasin context before we went
through the answer on it. So just be fair on that, that I
completely blind a question likeI normally do.

(00:21):
But he also has had about 10 minutes to look into it.
So it's not like it's a head start.
He hasn't had weeks of study on this, so just just wanted to
give him a quick heads up, make sure he understood the question
before we we got into it. So just get started.
We're going to get started rightaway.
We're looking at John 20 verse 23.
And it says if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven

(00:46):
them. If you withhold forgiveness from
any, it is withheld. And then the question is, do
pastors have this authority and ability now?
Sure. OK, so just a real quick context
for everybody here. So this would be the same day of

(01:09):
the resurrection, but now it's evening and you have disciples
in the locked room 'cause they're scared of the Jews, the
whole situation. And Jesus suddenly appears and
it's only to 10 cause of course Jews Iscariot is is gone and
then Thomas is missing from thisgroup.
So these ten guys and so he's you know, peace be with you as
the Father has sent me Even so Iam sending you it says in verse

(01:34):
22. And when he has said this, he
breathed on them and said to them receive the Holy Spirit.
And then we have our verse 23. If you forgive the sins of any
they have forgiven them. If you will hold forgiveness for
many it is withheld. OK, so this is a similar
language, just kind of like the it's, it's basically the same
command that was given in Matthew.

(01:56):
And so we see this kind of in two different places, the same
kind of language, same kind of idea, maybe slightly different,
but it's but it really comes down the same thing.
Matthew 1619 and then 1818. So Matthew 1619 says I will give
you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
And whatever you bind on earth should be bound in heaven.
Whatever you loose on earth shall be loose in heaven.

(02:18):
I think that's the verse that weactually handled before at some
point. I know how long ago it was.
I wouldn't know where to find it.
So and then 1818, truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth
shall be loosed in heaven. You can look at the context of
those verses too, but it's essentially that's sort of an
idea. So I guess, you know, one of the
first considerations is who is this for?

(02:40):
Who is this for? You know, there actually is a
view out there that would say itis strictly for those 10
apostles. Like not even Thomas.
Thomas missed the boat. And so I, yeah, most people
would say, OK, that's that's notit.
Yeah, that that's actually the next verse.
Now, Thomas wasn't there yet, right?

(03:01):
Right. OK, so I, I don't think that he
totally like now he, you know, did he ever get the Holy Spirit,
you know, Yeah, of course, right.
Of course we know those things happened.
The the idea though here is thatis it transferring to church
leadership because now this is the resurrected Jesus and
things. OK.
And Jesus already did give some church instructions even before

(03:23):
his crucifixion. And so here, you know, is this
just church leadership or is this the church, you know,
collectively like the organization?
And so perhaps like a congregation together determines
these things. Or is it only the like pastoral
leadership? Or is it every single individual

(03:43):
believer? OK, that that's kind of your
options there. For myself, I would side on it
being the body of Christ as a whole, but I it but it does
trickle down to the individuals.So like the focus would be the
body, but but on an individual like conversation sort of a
thing. So here here's the idea.

(04:06):
Christians are involved in this mission, but it's God that
forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
If that were not true, then Scripture has a contradiction
because it's been plainly stated.
Only God can forgive sins. All right, so God is doing it.
But often when God does things, he uses human agency.

(04:30):
And so it's kind of like how we,we sort of misspeak and we'll
say like, I've heard the phrase I, I, I try not to say this at
all. But, you know, back in the day,
it was, you know, oh, I, I savedthem.
OK, Well, no, you didn't. God save their souls, but you
were the one sharing the gospel when they believed, you know, so
that's that kind of thing. So there's a little bit of that

(04:51):
element here. I think that, you know, it's
important to understand that we are not independent of the Holy
Spirit in this mission. OK, That's he, he's doing it.
We're these the agents. All right, so then connecting it
with Matthew 1619 and 18 eighteens, which I handle all
three verses together here. It needs to be understood in the

(05:14):
old rabbinic legal system, so tospeak, The yeah, the the, the,
the binding and losing is sort of like, are you guilty or
innocent? OK, Are you holding on to the
guilt of your sin or are you forgiven?

(05:37):
That's an important distinction.And so they, they, what they
would do in the rabbinic system back then, it was more than just
that. It was all the law.
And so people would come to them.
You know, there's 613 lies they had.
No, the people weren't, you know, there's people that
weren't even literate, right, let alone be able to have their
own text. And so they would come to the
rabbi's, you know, teachers and they would explain to them the

(06:00):
law and, you know, OK, you did this.
Well, that is sin, but this is how it is handled.
And so now, OK, you believe and you're you are forgiven.
You, you release, forgive us to release, you release from this
guilt kind of a thing. That's the sort of an idea
that's going on. And so with that in mind, all

(06:21):
right, so there is this now a heavy responsibility here that
you have to articulate the gospel in such a clear way that
there is there is no confusion as to whether you have mercy
from God or wrath from God. That's sort of an idea.

(06:44):
You are to articulate the word of God in such a way that they
know. And so this is where like I
could talk to somebody. Understand the gospel fawn you
to explain it properly. Well, you can mess it up by not
saying the true gospel for sure,for sure.
Well, it's like this. But what the?
Understanding is y'all. It's still based on God opening

(07:05):
your eyes. It's not.
It's not based on how well I articulate.
Once once again, human agencies involved.
So I am professionally a teacher.
OK, but God teaches you, you know, it's the Holy Spirit that
illumines gives light, gives understanding to doctrine.
That's that's true. I just feel like we just put a

(07:26):
lot of pressure on everybody. You got to make sure you
perfectly articulate and yeah, that's that's a lot of pressure.
None, none of us do that. So we're humans, but.
Let me give you a practical illustration of this.
No names. There are preachers out there,
OK, That they will preach in such a way that sin is never

(07:49):
mentioned. Sure.
Hell is not mentioned. No, none of those things.
It's very soft. I wouldn't even say it's a false
gospel. They don't even preach the
gospel right, So. Then they, they, they, they'll
talk about, they can talk about believing.
This is like even the better of that group.
They'll talk about believing. They're not going to talk about
repentance. They're going to talk about the

(08:09):
goodness of God. They're not going to really talk
about the sin of man, you see. In the wrath of God.
So then, yeah, correct. And so somebody can be
convinced, you know, you can sayso.
Hey, so now you're a brother in Christ.
And really, they had no repentance, no nothing.
They just are kind of joining the club.
Yeah, so to speak. Yeah, OK, I get what?

(08:31):
You're saying they have failed. OK, yeah.
So that that's what this this isa heavy responsibility that
Jesus giving. He's like, look, you're the
human agents that are going to be declaring because you know
who else is doing it right? This is in context of also
having the Holy Spirit. Yes, because what was first?
Yeah, the Holy Spirit, right? And now you have this.

(08:52):
Right. And he's working through you.
So this this isn't necessarily then saying that the pastor,
preacher, or any individual Christian can actually forgive
sins. Yeah, not an independent deal.
I can't just. Cause only God can forgive sins.
And the Bible is very clear on that, right?
Right. So this, this, this from time to

(09:12):
time can appear as a contradiction.
And there are certain groups of people who teach basically teach
this that, you know, the pastor can like, Nah.
No, no, it's, I think it's my responsibility just as a
believer, not as a a leader, butjust just as a believer.
It's my responsibility to articulate the gospel, which
includes sin in things in in such an accurate way.

(09:37):
Part of the. Gospel.
Part of the gospel is not being right with God, which is why we
need to be right, made right with God.
That's why it's good news 'causethere's really bad news.
Yeah, there is. Yeah, yeah.
OK, so so that's that's the idea.
And it's not that we have to usehighfalutin theological words or
something. Sure, it you don't have to use a
heavy vocabulary and it's not that you have to, you know,

(09:59):
write a 300 page book or something.
The idea is simply just not leaving an element of the gospel
out, you know, so that that you can declare and say, OK, you
know, you might want to add the caveat of, well, as long as
you're not lying to me, as long as this is real, then you are
forgiven. Sure, because we know that
because of the Word, the authority of the Word of God.

(10:21):
So it's more of you pronouncing forgiveness.
That God has done that. God has done yes, OK, versus
actually granting forgiveness that you have done.
OK, we're just simply the human.Agents, oh, on behalf of God, in
God's work, we're not granting forgiveness.
Even on behalf of God, we're thebest forgiveness and we're
acknowledging that, OK, That that's at least that's your
interpretation of this, correct.OK.

(10:43):
That's my interpretation. OK, sounds good.
All right, you guys be the be the deciders.
Did we stump the theologian? Was the answer satisfactory?
Sure. Or you have more of some
comments on it, Send those to usand we would love to let me add
some. Feedback.
Let me add one more thing. All right, So just just to make
it clear. PSPS.

(11:03):
Yeah, the the because my mind, my mind's a little scrambled
here. So I'm trying to get together.
When you're done giving the gospel to somebody, you have the
ability to talk as long as you want.
OK, So you have delivered the full gospel.
They should know where they stand at the end of that
conversation. They may not believe what you

(11:24):
say, but they should know, like,clearly.
Well, they told me that, yeah. I mean, I'm not going to be with
Christ when I die because of, you know, that's what they said
there. There should be no room for
error with that. They should know if they're in
the club or not. So you're saying part of the
gospel is declaring that you're not right with God?
Yeah, like you, you have to. Yeah.
So that's like the binding and the losing, like, no, you're

(11:46):
still bound by sin, you are still under the wrath of God.
You have not repented, you know,that kind of a thing.
So just want to make sure that was clear.
All right, so there we go. This is Joel's interpretation of
this verse. And I think you explained your
position quite well and hopefully that makes sense to
everybody. And if you have comments on this

(12:08):
course, send them to us. Put them in that, put them in
the comments. We'd love to hear some feedback
and I'm sure there's some other points of view on this and, and
we're welcome to hear them. Yeah.
And we will have further discussion if needed.
So all right.