Is War Good? Part 1 I BBB 59.2

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
All right, OK, well, let's let'sroll.
Let's get on to the main event here.
Yes, I'm pretty excited. Joel, what do you have for us
today? OK, so let me start.
Let me do this way. There's several ways to present
this to you. So is war good?

(00:24):
Yes and no. OK, already it gets complicated.
Yes war. War is good.
But war is also bad right? Like fair enough, people die.
Like it's it's not good, but there are reasons for it.
So then you think like in this, this, this question gets very
easily, very quickly. Emotions get attached to it.

(00:48):
Oh, sure. And so we want to try to
detangle ourselves from that andjust decide, be it, what is the
truth? Be it any emotionless drone.
What is good here? And so, you know, for example,
let's say you have somebody that's, you know, American
citizen, they, they join the military, they, they go fight a

(01:08):
war. This has happened so many times,
right? And we've had lots of.
Of good American people who havedone this.
Right, right. And there's been so much, so
much division among the country,but then also within
Christianity of, you know, how good is that to go there and you
know, you kill these people. Sometimes it's even children

(01:30):
that end up dying in things. So there's bombs, right?
The bombs that they don't reallycare who you are.
They're going to blow you up. You know, it's OK.
There's there's some stuff there.
Sometimes you have a drug boat going across the ocean and you
get hit by drones. There's all sorts of things that
can. Happen regularly, actually
lately. Yeah.
So, you know, how do how do you deal with that?

(01:51):
How do you know what's good, what's evil?
You know what's right, what's wrong?
So it's a very sensitive issue. Yeah.
So some people would say war is never good, never good.
That's you know. And I can see the argument.
Pacifist. That's what they called, but I
can see. The argument, I mean, yeah,
death and destruction is not good, right?

(02:13):
So I can I can see that. Jesus says love your enemies.
Yeah. He says, you know, even submit
to those that are persecuting you.
Yeah. OK, things like that.
And so there's, there's actuallysome cases for that.
OK. There's another view that says,
you know what essentially war justifies itself.
The idea is this is how the world works.

(02:33):
This is the broken world that we're in.
It's always been this way. It will always be this way.
You know, there's, there's some modifications to that statement
a little bit, but that's essentially the idea.
And so it's, you know, pursuit of power.
It's, it's about political convenience.
This is just how the world works.
And so it's, it's fine, it's fine no matter, no matter what.

(02:55):
You, you, you have the, the old phrase, you know, all is fair
and love and war, you know, kindof a thing.
And so it's kind of like rules go out the window when it's war.
Sure, yeah. So normal, normal morality, if
you will, goes out the door and you have a new set of code, you
know, for ethics and what not, right?
Yeah. So that that's sort of that view

(03:17):
there. 'Cause even in war, you know,
they have war crimes, right? Like certain things like, yeah,
you can do this, but you can't do that.
That's just just beyond right. And some people have different
ideas on what that would be. Sure, of course.
And, yeah, and so you think about, like someone might say
really quickly, you know, if you're an American citizen, you
love your country, which I hope you do.

(03:37):
I hope you do. I do.
Whatever. Country you live in.
I hope you love your country. Right, right.
But you, so you get attached to it.
And so sometimes it can be the effect of, you know, hey, my
family's been the military, my family's been the military, lots
of friends of the military, things like that.
And so you don't want to say that they are wrong.
And so without thinking about it, you know, you just simply

(03:57):
declare something good. So really what I'm trying to do
is get us to think about it, youknow, and maybe you'll come back
to the same conclusion in the end.
But what what if you're in, you know, Russia, China, North
Korea, what, you know, think about all these different
countries in the world. Would it be the same?
Would it be the same when they come to try to kill your
relative? Are they morally just as well?

(04:21):
OK, so that's an interesting one.
And where, where are the lines drawn for all of this?
So that the whole IDC of pacifism, pacifism.
There we go. War is never good.
Realism is the one where it's like, hey, war justifies itself.
It's just the way the world is. Just the way it.
Is you have another view that would be, well, I don't want to

(04:41):
say the, the phrase just yet 'cause it will trigger
something. It's a, it's a common phrase
that might be misunderstood. So let me hold off for that for
a moment. So it's just the idea that hey,
war is good, you know, for our context here when it is used to,
to spread Christianity and so that that that would change
based on whatever faith system someone's in, you know, war is

(05:05):
good when it's used to spread myfaith system.
So a holy war? Holy war.
Yes. Yeah.
I don't want to come out and sayit first because it would
trigger some ideas. Maybe you get certain things in
your head, but that's essentially the idea.
OK. Then you have another view where
essentially there's you. You have government

(05:28):
institutions, they are responsible for all of their
citizens. And so really, it's the goal is
what they would believe is justice and peace.
Protect your people, whatever ittakes, and your interest.
Right. Yeah, whatever it takes to have
justice and peace for all the citizens.

(05:48):
Which is, I would say, probably the position America would take
in theory. And that's been called just war.
Officially right? Let's not go there yet.
We'll see, we'll see. I I just want to introduce some
ideas, right, OK, OK. And so those are those are kind
of the four. Help but jump to the conclusion.
Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Those kind of four major views on the morality of war, OK,

(06:12):
Essentially. OK, I can buy that.
So let's explore those views. So let's let's let's dissect a
certain a couple words here. So you have Exodus 20 verse 13,
Exodus chapter 20 verse 13. I feel like that's the 10.
Commandments. That's the 10 commandments we're
going to #6. Thou shalt not murder.

(06:35):
Well, you know, you look look upyour translation and see what it
says. You know, most of the time they
say you shall not kill or thou shalt not kill the.
New King James, it says murder. OK, yeah, but but all
translations are the same. And so the Allah of them say
kill there there's some that saymurder.
And so, you know, do we need to make a distinction there when it

(06:59):
says don't kill? And then he says murder.
You have killing going on, you know.
What does what, what's your translation say?
And you look up the ESV. I'd I'd say probably about every
modern translation. ESV says murder also.
But about every modern translation today would say
murder. OK, so but, you know, there's

(07:19):
there's maybe you have a belovedtranslation that's not so modern
and it says kill. And so sometimes that can create
a little bit of an issue as we think about, you know, all the
times that there is killing in Scripture.
And so is it right or is it wrong?
You know? Yeah.
Well a lot of people when they say the tech of man and say kill
right. Right, you repeat the old style.

(07:40):
You're. Not lying, but it actually says
you're not a very false witness against your neighbor.
Correct. Which is a whole other category
of. I think it's that it's more
broad. Yeah, it's it's Yeah, I think
it's. Anyways, that's another issue.
So we'll stop there. We'll, we'll.
Do that one later. OK, so I I would definitely be
in the camp of saying you know you shall not murder is
appropriate because murder assumes moral evil guilt.

(08:04):
It assumes that in the word you,you don't say, you know, the
praying mantis murders her husband, you know, kind of a
thing. We don't use any of those kind
of terms or the mates, you know,the, you know, the Black Widow,
Same thing. Any kind of animals.
We say kill because murder implies morality.

(08:25):
Kill either assumes moral good or it's ah, moral.
It doesn't have any. There's no moral element to it
at all. I I stomped on an Ant.
Right or wrong, you know, and your views on stomping on ants,
we'll say I was trying to attackmy children.
But yeah, I, I killed the Ant. You know, I don't say I murdered

(08:47):
the Ant, though, right? You know, no matter how you look
at that, you don't say I murdered the Ant.
I killed the Ant. OK, so that's that.
That's something to think about too, there.
So already built into our language, we understand there's
a difference. Not all killing is murder.
You know, if you want to say it that way, definitely.

(09:07):
So then, so let's let's kind of think of that for like wartime,
Yeah. And so is it murder or is it
killing? And so you know what?
You want us to throw that out there?
In the next, I would say in general it is definitely
killing, not murder, although I think murder from time to time
would happen in times of war. People get carried away, sure,

(09:27):
maybe some surrenders and you kill them anyway, that type of
thing. Sure.
We'll see even that may be justified, you know, and I
wouldn't even say it's always murder because, you know,
there's, there's a lot of fine lines in there.
But I mean, if you look at like the, the life of some of the men
of God in the Bible, like David,the manner for God's own heart.
And he actually has a Psalm, Psalm, you know, Psalm 18.

(09:49):
He's like, you know, he's, he's praising God for teaching.
He teaches my hands to war. Right.
Right, so war is is not apparently bad.
In fact, God gives gave certain people the ability to be killing
machines. I mean, David and his mighty men
were butt kicking and killing machines.

(10:11):
And yet David's, you know, the sweetest devils of Israel and a
man of God's own heart. But when he went to battle, he
went to battle to kill people and he did a good job of it.
I mean, in fact, that's how he got his first wife was killing
some Philistines, right? The only way to do it.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's the
perfect, that's the perfect, theperfect thing if some, some

(10:33):
young man comes to comes to datemy my little little girl.
But yes, yes, you can earn it. Bring me, bring me 100 foreskins
of the Philistines. Well, before we get ourselves
into deep trouble here, we'll, we'll yeah, we'll shelf that one
anyway. How about that?
Let's shelf that one. So, yeah.

(10:53):
So the, the idea is like, you know, First off, can there ever
be a lawful killing? Now for us, we're have a
different starting point, but you know, because we're, we're
talking to a whole bunch of different people.
Like that's the first hurdle that you might even have to
consider. Can there ever, ever be a lawful
killing? You know, if for justice, you

(11:14):
know, someone kills 300 people, mass murder spree, should we
kill him back? You know, is that justice?
Is there a limit? You know, to use a famous
example, right, You know, the Hitler type person, you know, is
that is that person deserving ofdeath?
Yeah. So you start to think like that.
I think a lot of people start tosay.
Justifiable deaths, right, Right.

(11:36):
Especially in in the case of punishment.
Yeah, I would say so. And I think the Bible, I think
the Bible says so. All right, so we're, we're kind
of getting started. I don't want to say too much
because there's something I wantto do.
This might be a little bit special for us today, so I don't
want to say too much here. Put me on the spot somewhere.
Maybe, maybe we love. We love to hear from you too.
So you ever have you ever heard the expression an eye for an eye

(11:59):
will leave the whole world blind?
Have you heard that I've? Heard that?
Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
I mean, I would agree. Well, because you know, we
everybody offends somebody, right, like if you all just
every time you're offended, you go and you just poke somebody's
eye out. Eventually no one's got me ice
left. So I get that there is there is

(12:19):
a place also for grace, right? But you know where they get that
from That phrase? An eye for an eye.
What eye for an eye comes from the Bible?
Yeah. So is that wrong?
No. So, but leaves the whole world
blind there. The implication is that's wrong,
right? That's a bad system of justice.
Yeah, I disagree, but OK. So talk about it.

(12:40):
Yeah. So what?
So is it, you know, because you know that I so I don't like the
phrase. An eye for an eye will leave the
whole world blind. I say that's stupid.
That's that's my first gut reaction.
I was actually going to do that right?
There's going to be one guy left, so.
Perhaps, Perhaps. Always.

(13:02):
You're going to stab each other at the same time, just not not.
That's not practical. Oh my goodness.
Well, you can still have one eyeand get somebody else, you know.
Most people say that because they they don't want justice,
right? But but justice is good.
God is a just God. He put governments in charge to
be just and uphold his laws. And there was a moral code that
we're supposed to stand by and, and follow.

(13:23):
And they, the government was given authority by God to uphold
those laws. OK, it's not up for me.
And you just go around poking heels, eyes out.
But you know, in, in America, wehave, you know, a judicial, A
judicial system where people go and they and they're tried.
And if they're found guilty, then they're punished.
And, and we don't necessarily dothat the maiming thing here,
although some countries still dothat.

(13:44):
Yeah, it happens. So, but where, where do you get
that from? Like for Scripture where you
said it's not for us to do it the eye, for the eye, for the
eye, it's not for us to do that.Where do you where do you get
that from? I have to look it up.
When it we OK, all right, well, we, we want to make sure we're
clear. Let me give you I I have three
different references that mention the eye for the eye.

(14:04):
OK, so I'll give you the first one, Exodus chapter 21, verse
24. Holy cow, I got a whole bunch of
them. There's there's there are three
big ones here. 282020 yeah 21 through 24.
Yeah. So there's you have like Exodus,
Leviticus, Deuteronomy is what Ihave these these three passages.
So Exodus. 2420 Deuteronomy 1921Calm Down.
Exodus 2126. He's not calming down all.

(14:27):
Right. All right, so in verse 24, just
to cut, you know, without context here, he just starts eye
for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
And then if you want to add 25, you know, burn for burn, wound
for wound, stripe for stripe. Yeah, OK.
Leviticus 2420 says fracture, fracture, eye for eye, tooth for
tooth. All right, well, let's let's

(14:47):
back it up here to verse 22. So I'm looking at Exodus chapter
21, verse 22, and it says when men strive together, this is
part of the law. Yeah.
When men strive together means there this.
Is when the the babies hurt. Right like fist punching.
Would you calm down? So when you get ahead of me
here, when we didn't strive together and hit a pregnant
woman. So they have a fist fight and

(15:07):
they knocked the pregnant lady. Yeah.
OK. So then it says so that.
So the hit was in such a way so that her children come out.
So there's some kind of birth ordelivery.
There's not delivery going on. Yeah, this is.
But there's no harm. So the child was delivered, but
there's actually no harm that it's a healthy baby.
OK. The one who hit her shall surely

(15:28):
be fine. You're still getting fined for
doing this? Yeah.
Because you shouldn't hit women when you're fighting anybody.
Take it outside. It's not good.
Well, especially pregnant next to pregnant ladies.
Yeah, yeah. Don't do.
That. Come on guys.
So this is it says the the person we find as the woman's
husband shall impose on him. So it's that serious.
He gets to just make up whateverfee he wants kind of an

(15:51):
interesting thing says and he shall pay as the judges
determine. So the judges, so they they're
the ones that determine like howmany like like you're going to
make a payments, you have so many years to pay it or, you
know, pay all at once right now,whatever it is.
Is that also kind of like a a check and balance of if if me
and the husband just make up some ridiculous number, the
judge should be like OK come on now.

(16:12):
Yeah, well, I mean, it does. It does say whatever he wants.
And so I think that the whole point of the law is make sure
you don't hit a pregnant woman. Well, yeah, I mean that that's
the point. Right.
It's like there's, there's, it can be as high as he wants, but
the judges are the ones that go,OK, well, we can make it into
monthly installments. And so that way it's, you know,
it's a more reasonable, all right, verse 23 says, but if

(16:34):
there is harm that may be delivered, there's some, some
kind of harm says then you shallpay life for life, eye for eye,
tooth for tooth, and it goes on the whole thing.
So what's really interesting about that is it shows also that
a grown man in society has equalvalue to an unborn baby.
Yeah, equal. Equal value 100%, which is

(16:56):
really that's a whole other thing, but that's a really cool.
I love that one. So, but what what we're looking
at here is what I want to show is the eye for the eye thing.
This that part is not for the individual, That's for the
judges. This is the law for the judges
to actually, what's the word I'mlooking for, like carry out
there. We go execute the judgement, you

(17:18):
know, and so that's not for the individual to do.
OK, so then you so you have these other illustrations
because we have other passages, but it's essentially it's all
the same conclusion. You can look at yourself.
Yeah, it goes down and it goes through all kinds of stuff that
could happen, right. Like, yeah, the next section it
goes in the the animal control laws.
If you're if you're ox gore somebody, yes, you know, if it
if he was known to gore and it happens, then you're in big

(17:40):
trouble, right. Otherwise you're not as big a
trouble and and you just put the, you know anyway.
All right, so even to help us understand this a little better,
we can hop over to the Sermon onthe Mount.
So we'll go over to Matthew 5, specifically verse 38.
Jesus references this. Yeah.
OK, So with the server on the mount the whole thing, he is

(18:04):
correcting how the Scriptures have been misinterpreted the
whole time. How traditions, man's
traditions, have taken over whatGod actually said.
There's been a bad leadership and they have been making up
their own interpretations. They've been adding a scripture
all together, taking certain things out.
And so he's not preaching new things, he's just preaching

(18:24):
actual good interpretation of ofthe Old Testament.
He's like, why he? Even says this, you have heard
that it it it was sad. He didn't say I said it.
Yeah, you heard it was said. You you heard the interpretation
of what was said, right? What was given is basically what
he's saying. An eye for an eye and a tooth
for tooth. But I tell you not to resist an

(18:45):
evil person. But whoever slaps you on the
right cheek turn to him the other also.
So, so it's we can there's, there's the other examples
given. We can stop there, though, for
our purposes. And so he says, you know, yeah,
do not resist the one who's evil.
OK, What are you going to do? You're not going to fight
against them. If anyone slaps you on the right
cheek, turn them. The other also, you turn the

(19:05):
cheek. We get that phrase.
But see, this is this is what was part of the
misinterpretation wise. They use thye fry as in a a
justice thing, as in a vengeancething.
You hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back.
And Jesus, like, Nah, that's notwhat it's supposed.
To be right. And so that's the whole.
Up to you to have vengeance. Yeah.
So that that's the whole like eye for eye leaves the world
blind because they are misinterpreting just like they

(19:28):
were back in the old days. And they're saying, yeah, you
know, if, yeah, of course, if everybody took it upon
themselves to apply their own personal justice system.
Yeah. And and take it on themselves
to, you know, exact vengeance however they saw fit.
Well, OK, yeah, you're right. That's a problem.
That's gonna be a big problem. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And so there's a whole reason
that there is a justice system put in place.

(19:49):
Yeah, and that's why it's nice to have a, a third party who is,
who is not involved in theory neutral, yeah.
Can then make judgement on things, yeah.
So, but then we have an interesting thing going on here.
Because it says don't resist theone who's being evil to you.
And so he gives a very specific example.
He says if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, smack.

(20:13):
You turn the other, you give theother ones, you want to smack
that one too. So I guess we're supposed to be
pacifists, No war. Well, this isn't talking about
war, but yeah. Well, if if you can't, you can't
do this, how can you do war? You know this is like this is
the most bottom line. Talking about personal
vengeance. Well, you said no self-defense,

(20:37):
right? No self-defense.
I don't know if we would go thatfar either.
I don't know, but I'm I'm, by the way, I'm advocating a
certain position here that I mayor may not uphold myself.
You're you're seeming like you are here.
No, I mean this has nothing to do with self-defense either.
Well, someone smacks me. Should I defend myself?
No, I'm turning on the cheek. So no self-defense we're.

(20:59):
Just getting slapped by an idiotis is not needing a
self-defense. But no, they're an idiot.
Now come on cuz. They walked up and slapped it.
I mean, you're, you're 62. 3. £300 Why you slapped this guy?
You want lots of other people inthe room?
I mean, clearly he's not very smart.
So what I would say about this one is that so you think about

(21:23):
someone slaps you and it hits you on the right cheek.
OK, So what, what I picture it, you know, First off, if I bawled
my my hand to a fist and I punched you in the face, how
would I really hit your right cheek?
So assuming I'm right-handed, because that was the assumption
of the day. So, and I am right-handed.

(21:44):
So, so if I have a fist, my right hand's a fist and I'm
going to punch you and hit you in the right cheek.
How's that happen? It doesn't happen.
And normally you're going to go for like what?
The eye, the nose, right the themouth.
OK, something like that. So, so hitting and it says
slaps, right? Everyone slaps you hitting on
the right cheek. That's a backhand slap.

(22:07):
So my right hand backhand slap that hit you the right cheek.
Sure. That's an insult.
That's there's nothing to do with self-defense because that's
just an insult. I knew it.
Yes. They, they weren't actually
trying to kill you or like, leave you, you know, to die kind
of a thing. They're not beating you up.

(22:28):
It's an insult. And so the idea is if somebody
just if someone slaps me in the face, I can recover.
Yeah. Yeah.
My prides hurt, perhaps, you know, something like that.
I might be embarrassed or ashamed or just angry, depends
on the situation. Sure, maybe all of them.
But I but I'm OK physically. I can recover from that.
Yeah. And so that's the idea.
It's just an insult. And so, and the other things

(22:51):
too, It's, it's a matter of inconvenience.
You know, someone takes your, you know, they, they, they going
to sue you for your tunic. The idea is that it's wrongful.
That's the, that's the idea behind it.
It's wrongful. And so they go, OK, well, you
can have my cloak too, because I'm not about the earthly
things, you know, you know, I'm going to love my enemies.
You know, the, the whole, the Roman soldier, he could command

(23:13):
you to carry his stuff for one mile.
He could demand that. And there's milestones
everywhere. So you know exactly what a mile
was. And he says, you know what that
happens to you Go, go 2 miles, carry 2 miles for him.
And he's like, like, boy, what an impact that has, right?
That that sort of a thing. Even the person that begs just,
you know, give give it to him. It, you know, the assumption is

(23:34):
that if you have it, OK, sure. If you don't.
Have it. It's hard to hard to give.
Right, right. So there's some assumptions
there, but you get the ideas. And so Jesus is actually
preaching the text correctly. He goes, look, that's not for
you, that's not for you. This this is your part.
So there's like the individual and the institution.
So we have to determine what is this for the individual or the
institution. The eye for an eye was for the

(23:56):
institution, the judicial system.
And then for this part, love your enemies.
That's the individual just for an insult.
It doesn't it doesn't say anything about self-defense here
at all. I don't think this is just a
handling insults and people taking advantage of you, that
kind of a thing. OK.
Yeah. All right.
I'm on board. I'm on board.
He, he, he. OK, this is this is our warm up.

(24:20):
So I'm going to take a certain position.
OK. And I want you to react to it
OK. All right, all right.
All right, there there's. Like I said, I introduced 4
systems in the beginning. OK.
Which position are you going to take first?
You're going to take all of them.
Just just react. Just react to just react.
Whatever I say, whatever I say, OK, so I'll, I'll just tell you

(24:42):
know, I'm, I'm a character here,OK?
It's OK. So I'll tell you where I'm at.
OK, All right. If I look at all of Jesus
teachings and his example that he gave us, he gave us specific
example to follow and all of that, I'd say he is he was
calling his his followers to notbe violent.
Wouldn't that be true that he's not wanting us to be violent

(25:05):
people? Would you say so?
No. You don't think so?
I wouldn't say that, no. I.
Think I don't, I don't think, I don't see.
Anything. I think there's that, Yeah.
I. Think I don't think Jesus ever
advocated for violence. Well depend.
Do you find violence? You're going to hurt people,
okay? So you never what a whip hurt

(25:28):
possibly as Jesus was chasing him on with.
Did he ever actually whip a person?
He's chasing him out with a whip.
That sounds violent. Doesn't mean he whipped a person
and then I don't. Think he did.
There's this, there's this one passage in the Revelation where
he comes back and and kills everybody so well.
So violence has a place. But that's God.
That's God's place, not our place.

(25:48):
Well, you said Jesus didn't never do violence.
Well, in this earthly ministry, when he's giving us an example,
so then God can do it, of course.
And so when God does it, the question is, is well, should we
do it too? But I think he was taking a
position there where he was leading them and what violence
he spoke a word and his enemies were destroyed.
So I I don't see a place in Jesus earthly ministry where

(26:11):
he's actually calling us to do harm to anybody, to be violent
in any way Advocate. Violence or go to war?
He he says love your enemies. He he's, you know, turn, turn
the cheek. You know, if the insults even
Christians should not participate in lethal violence
or war. That's my position.
That's what that's my position, OK.
Why is that your position? Because I'm taking it OK, That's

(26:35):
as simple as that. OK, OK.
All right, so. So we're still back to to the
government thing, right? So Leviticus for God's giving
the law to people to follow. Leviticus 24.
Let me turn there. Go ahead.
There's lots of things we put todeath for which most of them
aren't carrying out anymore. But some of that had

(26:58):
traditionally up to more recently been carried out would
be like Leviticus 2417. Whoever kills any man shall
surely be put to death. Whoever kills an animal shall
make it good for animal for animal, right?
Like this is a restitution thing.
Sure, sure. You kill a person, well, you get
put to death. But this isn't for me and you to
carry out. This is for the government to

(27:19):
carry out, you know, with the judges and all the things.
Right. Well, in fact, this is the
Mosaic law that's not meant for anybody today.
So we can't, we can't use that. Says who?
We can't. The Mosaic Law is obsolete.
This is the law of our land. Well, this is, but you're
quoting scripture. Here.
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
And so this is, this is the old covenant, which in Hebrews is

(27:41):
very clear. It says it's it's obsolete.
You said that Jesus never advocated for it.
Is Jesus talking? Jesus is the word.
OK, but but his earthly ministrywhere he gave us today an
example to live by He. Came to fulfill the law and not
get rid of it all right, He never he never said he.
Did fulfill He never. Said that the moral laws were
supposed to be abandoned and gotten rid of.
He, He upheld every prophecy that was there.

(28:02):
He fulfilled it completely. He.
Didn't kill everyone yet. Well, as far as he's supposed
to. So far, he has not left any
prophecy behind. Let me finish reading.
Let me finish reading what that what what Leviticus says if a
man if a man causes disfigurement to his neighbor as
he has done so shall be done to him and then it goes into the

(28:22):
factor factor eye for eye tooth to do with the whole that whole
thing. Once again, though back to this
is not you having judgement personal vengeance.
This is this is supposed to be carried out by the government
that God gave the authority to. Yeah, but God gave those
commands back then. Yeah.
What's he commanding us today? The same things.

(28:44):
I don't think so. Yeah.
So you. But you if you take one part of
the law as over us today, then you have to have the whole law
as over us today. No.
No, it's it's one unit. No, I don't have to have.
The oh boy, oh boy. No, the Bible never chops it up
like that. Ceremonial, civil moral.
That's never your fall into a trap there.
No, because look at the 10 commandments, look at the 10

(29:06):
commandments. There's no ceremonial stuff in
there. It's all.
That's how you you love God, youlove people.
Just so Jesus summed it up so Jesus Jesus specifically
advocated for that part of the law and and he just summed up in
2 love God, love people. Yes, well, well this passage
here till it gives you the consequences for not doing the

(29:28):
part that love the people part specifically harming others.
All right, so, so here. Here's the deal.
Here's the deal. Let me, let me 'cause I have to
cover this for you, and we're going to go to Hebrews 8.
We'll go to Hebrews chapter 8 here.

(29:49):
OK, And we'll start with verse 6, I think.
OK, so it says. But as it is, Christ has
obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the
than the old as the covenant He mediates.
Is better new covenant better than old covenant since it is
enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had

(30:11):
been faultless, there would havebeen no occasion to look for a
second. For he finds fault with with
them when he says and when he goes on.
I'm not sure how much I should actually read here, but let's go
down to verse 13 for the punchline.
And Speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.
And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to

(30:33):
vanish away. So the Old Covenant is no longer
has any binding at all. Yeah, now that doesn't mean the
moral code that God set forth doesn't have binding.
Well, now here's the here's the safety for you.
What is repeated in the new covenant is is carried through.
So it's like I just said, he repeated.
OK. But like, you know, keeping the
Sabbath isn't repeated, right? So, so we don't have to, that's

(30:55):
why we don't hold to that. OK.
But the way you were talking about is not repeated in the new
covenant, the judicial law for Israel.
That's not repeating the new covenant.
OK. So we don't have so that does
not have any binding over me today.
What are you talking about? You you were advocating for

(31:19):
violence based on Leviticus. I'm advocating it for justice.
You did? No, you said.
Justice. You went to Leviticus, right?
Yeah, Leviticus 24 and you were talking about verse, you know,
17 Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.
Yeah, that law is not binding over us today.

(31:41):
Why not? Because once again, it's a part
of the Old Covenant that's been made obsolete.
No, it's part of the moral code.You're making that up.
No, yeah. No, no, there's not.
You. You find me anywhere in the
Bible at all where somebody splits up the law and did in
Hebrews did it say the Old covenant is obsolete?
Except for the moral part, It didn't say that.

(32:03):
No, no, it's a covenant. Yeah, well, we'll let the
audience decide on this one. OK.
But I think I think that I'm obviously right.
So that's a mean thing to say like that.
I disagree. It is mean.
Thanks. Eh, I was being a jerk when I
said that part. OK, here we go.
All right, let's move on. Let me, let me read, Let me read
Romans 13. Oh, he's jumping ship.

(32:26):
OK, no, let every person be subject to the governing
authorities. For there is no authority except
for God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
So he sets up governments, right, And authorities.
Therefore, whoever resists authorities resists what God has
appointed, And those who resist will incur judgement.

(32:47):
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct.
But too bad, All right, why are rulers A terror?
Too bad conduct because they're going to punish you, because
they're acting on the authority that God gave them to uphold his
moral law. Would you not?
Would you have No Fear of the one who has an authority?

(33:09):
Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval for if
God's servant or for he is God'sservant for your good.
And what if you do wrong? Be afraid, for he does not bear
the sword in vain. The God gives the government
that the sword to will justice, right?
And what's the sword used for? It's not to pat you on the back.

(33:34):
Well, for he is a servant of God, an adventurer who carries
out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Therefore, 1 must be in subjection, not only to avoid
God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience.
OK it. To God gives governments in the
New Testament authority to carryout justice with the sword.

(33:56):
So what I quick commercial, I want to just insert again for
the sake of our audience that I am advocating for a position
that I may or may not hold myself.
So it's just for this, you know,for we're having a a, a lively
debate here. And so I'm taking a position.
OK. So with that being said, with

(34:17):
that commercial, then I'll jump back into it.
All right. So and by the way, and this is
Nate's totally caught off guard by all this stuff.
He didn't prepare. He didn't.
I just, I jumped, I threw beset him.
Yeah. So just just so everyone knows,
it's all it's all fair here. OK.
So, you know, when I read this here in Romans 13, I, I'm

(34:39):
looking for, you know, my part specifically, first as an
individual. And of course, looking through
this as an individual, I would still see no call for me to be
violent in any way myself. Not unless you're part of the
government. Well, OK, so then you have, you
do have. Your part that your call to do
is don't be bad and you don't have to fear the punishment.

(35:00):
But if you are bad, yeah, be afraid, yeah.
For he does not bear the sword in vain.
OK. And so, you know, with the
sword, that could mean a lot of things.
And really I. Not really.
It's. You know, it's really just
punishment. It could be fees, it could be
fines. It could be, depends on what you
did wrong. So you can interpret that the
sword doesn't have to be something like whips or a

(35:24):
shooting squad or something likethat.
Could just be a sword. It could well does that.
What happens today in America? Was there a sword involved?
No, but you get the illustration, You get the point.
You get the point of what the sword is for.
It's symbolic, right? No.
So it's a literal sword. It was then.

(35:44):
Is it today? Well, we don't have to use
swords anymore. We have better weapons.
OK, so. We have electric chairs and
hanging nooses. So a sword can be a chair now
and. Just sit in the.
Corner, all right, yeah, maybe just sit in the corner kind of
punishment, yeah. So I mean.
I'm not so afraid of sitting in the corner.
It it's obviously symbolic to fit all cultures in all times,

(36:08):
just that there's punishments, that's all it's saying.
So sure, there can be punishments.
It doesn't have to be bloodshed.No, no.
Then when you read at face value, the sword pretty sure
causes blood. Yeah, well, you know, that's, I
guess that's just your interpretation.
No, there's no. Interpretation needed.
It's just that sword. He's.

(36:29):
I think you're violent with yourwords.
I need a safe space. Well.
That says if I'm going to live in terror, that's one sitting in
the corner, so. All right, but and just a quick
check, are you having fun with this conversation?
Yeah, because I'm having loads of fun with this conversation.
OK. All right.
This sounds like a normal conversation actually.
All right, here we here we go What's up?

(36:52):
I'm I'm ready for I'm ready to continue here, so.
That's that's that's my New Testament passage on the
government has has the authorityfrom God to enact justice on his
behalf. OK, so let me just.
Now now also, the government in theory is supposed to enact

(37:13):
God's, God's moral code, not their own make up stuff, right?
They're they're, they're given authority by God to obey Him.
They they have to be. Submissioned on behalf of the
people to protect the people. Now.
And that's where we get in lots of trouble when governments
don't do that and they make up their own rules and they and
they're not just and that's all kinds of problems.

(37:35):
I want to be careful. I think we're drifting into
another topic. I want to be careful.
I want to be careful. I have a barrier there so that
we don't. OK.
So the idea of like submitting to governments even when they're
evil kind of thing, I want to, Iwant to table that for another.
Time, yeah. And that's a whole other
conversation with America. That's a big one.
The ultimate authority of America is not the government.
It's the people we're tabling it, we shelving it.
We the people of the United States, but yes, OK.

(37:57):
All right, shelved. OK, so here's my next.
Just let me, you know, do this. OK, So then would you say just
kind of follow along with me here?
Would you say that God best reveals himself in the Son
Jesus? So the triune Godfather, Son,
Holy Spirit, as I as I want to make sure we're not, you know,

(38:19):
I'm not saying something else, but just that God is is best
revealed through the Son Jesus. I would say so.
I think that's safe, right? At least as far as like our
human understanding can understand, right?
I mean you only. Like necessarily see the
Fathers, see the Holy Spirit's, you can't, you know, it's like
they're at work obviously, and they're doing lots of things,

(38:42):
but it's more invisible, more invisible work.
I mean. You can make some arguments here
there, but then it's not very clear.
I I would go OK. Best best revealed Jesus Christ
son all right. Would you also agree separate
thing here? Would you also agree that the
specifically the earthly ministry of Jesus in the 1st

(39:03):
century, one of the things it accomplished was to leave us an
example to live by? Yes.
OK, All right. Yeah.
OK. And did you notice how Jesus
suffered even to the point of crucifixion and he even forgave

(39:25):
enemies, but he never killed an enemy.
He never killed them. Yeah.
Although although this is now, Imean, that was the whole plan I
got since before time began, right?
So. So that doesn't quite apply to.
Me in the whole time I was dying.
For your sins. But he gave.
Us that example. So that was.
Of how to treat enemies right. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Yeah, individually. I'm, I'm, I don't see, you know,

(39:49):
if, if even someone breaks in myhouse or something.
I mean, I can, I can try to, youknow, lead my family to safety
or something, but I really shouldn't like kill somebody or
something, you know, that that'snot well.
That's a whole. Well, self-defense.
Self-defense. Self-defense.
Killing in self-defense. Yeah, which I.

(40:09):
Would say is a murder. Probably wouldn't even do.
I would. I would.
I would. I would kill in defense of
others. I mean, I care less about
myself, but you harm one of my children or my wife and I'm
going to probably hurt you severely, right?
You would let someone kill you then?
Let. Probably not.
But I wouldn't go out. I'm clarifying.

(40:30):
I mean I would if I was in a an awkward situation I would
probably leave. But if if absent of leaving if I
have the opportunity to stop them, of course I would.
But if you are harming someone else, I most definitely have a
moral obligation to stop stop the wicked man from harming the
innocent. Yeah, I mean, I, I just see

(40:51):
even, you know, people mistreating Jesus to the point
of death. He's our example.
And he never fought back and he didn't kill anyone.
So I, you know, that's where that's my position in this
position that I'm sharing with everybody right now.
Yeah, yeah, that same commercial.
That he didn't. He didn't fight back.
OK, All right, well, there's. No argument there.
Right piece of the puzzle there.He did not fight back.
So that's why I won't. Either like a like a lamb to the

(41:13):
slaughter. Right, I'm going to be a lamb.
OK, all right, how about this one?
What are? You going to prove by that?
Because I want to be like Christ, and that's how I see
we're going to be like Christ inthis position.
OK, so then the the church, would you agree that the church
is in direct contrast to the earthly government?

(41:37):
There's a big difference betweengovernment and church.
OK, wouldn't you say so that's like that's a contrast society.
Yeah, no. Church and government.
Church and state, right? Well, I'm not saying those
words. What?
What I'm? As a Baptist, is part of your
beliefs. Well, I am upholding a position

(42:00):
here that I may or may not believe myself.
OK, OK. All right.
Hold on, hold on. So the the church, I mean, it's
a contrast society over against the state.
It's calling, the calling of thechurch is to really embody the
ethics of the Kingdom, all right, Not to wield the sword.
Hold on, Hold on, Hold on, hold on.

(42:20):
OK, let me pull this one up. I got one more sentence.
Christians may pay taxes and obey laws but refuse to kill all
right. So Jesus.
Jesus telling his story. OK, what's reference he's?
Not really telling his story, he's just make it a reference
that everybody would understand.Give me reference script
reference. What's what part of the Bible

(42:44):
are you reading from? What it says?
Huh. This is weird because it says
no. There we go, I see it now.
Maybe I'll. Figure it out if you start
reading. It Yeah, well, you you've heard
this story before. OK.
Mark 327. No one can enter a strong man's
house and plunder his goods unless he first binds a strong

(43:05):
man and then he will plunder hishouse.
Right? Right.
The idea is, and there's other references here.
Hold on, I can pull up the otherones?
Well, what? What's your point of that one?
Jesus is telling us, hey, it's OK to guard your house, right?
You can defend your stuff. I don't think he's still a
strong. Man, fully armed, guards his own

(43:25):
palace. His goods are in peace.
Why are they in peace? Because he's guarding.
Them. Well, yeah, but who cares about
guarding? His goods for Crown.
Not even about earthly things. Let him take the earthly things
you know. You know what you just said?
He says if someone sues you for your tunement, give him your
cloak also. Who cares about that?
Back to another thing though. We we already.
Covered that. That's the same idea.
Why? Why am I going to fight over my
earthly stuff? Not the same idea.
If they want my earthly stuff, let them.

(43:46):
Let them steal it. And then I'll I'll offer them a
cup of sugar too. Yeah, well Jesus is saying here,
guard your house. He's not saying to guard your
house. Well, he's he's just assuming
everybody's going to guard theirhouse.
But but you're he's not commanding to guard the house.
Your assumption is that his assumption is that everyone
guards the house, but that's notwhat it says.
A a strong man, fully armed, guards this out and and when he

(44:11):
guards his own palace, guess what happens?
It's good you're in peace because nobody going to break in
the house when they know you have guns.
This is when they were calling the Holy Spirit Satan, and
because they said the only reason you're doing these
miracles, Jesus, is because you actually have the power of Satan
in you doing it. This, this is a really, really
big deal. Matthew 12 parallel passage

(44:32):
blasting the Holy Spirit kind ofthing, the unpardonable sin,
right? And so it says, you know, he is
possessed by Beelzebull and by the Prince of demons.
He cast out the demons and he called them to him and he said
to them in parables. So this is this is Jesus parable
to explain how they're wrong about that.
How can Satan cast out Satan? If a Kingdom is divided against

(44:52):
itself, that Kingdom cannot stand.
If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be
able to stand. Now, if Satan has risen up
against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but it's coming
to an end. In other words, Satan and I are
not working together because we we're doing opposite things, you
know. OK, so then he says, but no one
can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods.

(45:13):
So who's the one plundering goods here in this parable?
The devil. Devil Plunders.
I think Jesus is the one plundering here.
Oh Jesus plundering here. Look at it.
No, no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his
goods unless he first binds a strong man.
Yeah, but the other parallel passage says it if you're if you
guard well, the one Luke, Luke 1121 when a strongman fully

(45:36):
armed guards his own palace, hisgoods are in peace.
That's. Just the truth.
That's just the general truth. Yeah, exactly.
And that's what Jesus saying. That's the general truth.
Yeah, it it happens. It's OK to guard your house.
That's. What he's saying, that's not
what he. Said everybody does it.
He didn't say he shouldn't do it, he said everyone does.
Let's go to that passage. What was that passage?
I'll handle that one now too. 1121.

(45:56):
Same same book. No.
Luke. Mark Luke. 1121 OK.
It's it's, it's the same passage.
It's just the Luke version of it.
So it's I'm saying same same meaning, OK.
So I'm saying it might not be Jesus doing the plundering.
So he's like if I, if I passed out demons, verse 19 if I cast
out demons by Beelzebel, Satan, by whom do your sons cast them
out? Therefore they will be your

(46:17):
judges. So the idea is like he's casting
out demons. In other words, he's bound the
strong man. So he's plundered his goods.
He's he is in charge, he says. But if it is verse 20, but if it
is by the finger of God that I cast out demons and the Kingdom
of God has come upon you. When a strong man fully armed
guards his own palace, Satan, his own Kingdom, his goods are

(46:40):
safe. But when one's stronger than he,
Jesus is stronger than him, attacks him and overcomes him.
He takes away his arm in which he trusted and divides the
spoil. And so we even have that that
imagery in other parts of Scripture, even Ephesians 4.
I think it's verse like 10, I think.
Who is not? That reference is against me.

(47:02):
Psalm 60. 818 Yeah, they're withme, scatters.
Yeah. So it's not saying for us to
guard our homes and kill people that break in.
He's not saying not to. OK, but he.
Uses this example. I'm saying is he uses an example
because everybody guards their home.
It's just assume that you're supposed to guard your home.
So in this instance, he's supposed.
To protect what God has given you.

(47:22):
In this instance, my claim is that there is no call for
violence. Your claim is that Jesus
pledgering Homs. And then, well, he plundered
Satan's Kingdom. Yeah, Yeah.
And so. And of course, that's he's God.
He's obviously he's attacking Satan, Yes, but I'm talking
about the another human being, ahuman being to a human being.

(47:43):
And. And so, you know, here you have
a claim saying that Jesus is commanding us to use violence to
protect ourselves. And I want to see where that's
at. He.
Used the He used the example. The assumption is that everybody
will protect their home, becausewhy would you not protect your
home? I I think he's not.
Everyone's a strong man. Not everybody has the ability.

(48:06):
That's why the fully armed part comes in handy.
Well, what? What's he armed with?
His armor? That's not an offensive weapon,
even. Call him what you want.
Well, you don't use armor to hurt somebody.
He's. Fully armed.
Where OK it? Says fully armed didn't.
It my ESV says he takes away hisarmor.

(48:28):
Yeah, this one says fully armed.Well, oh, oh the right.
OK, it does in the beginning, beginning of verse 21 later it
says. Fully armed so.
Fully armed. So what does that mean?
Means you. Have armor, sword, shield and
everything. You're fully armed if you you
got the whole suit on. If you finish the sentence it
says he takes away his armor in which he trusted.

(48:49):
So that's what it's talking about.
Was this fully armed just talking about the armor?
Well. You know, it's fully armed and
and. Satan thought he had a well
defended Kingdom. Yeah, Jesus, so busted in got
him he. Uses this example because guys
guard their homes. That's normal.
Well, of course the majority of people are unbelievers.
Of course they're going to act evil.

(49:09):
And even lots of Christians act evil.
Doesn't mean it's right. It's just normal.
Just because people do it, it's.Just normal to guard your home.
Well, I mean. Yes, yes, it is normal to guard
your home. It's it's normal just to please
yourself and have your own priorities over God's too.
Doesn't mean it's right. Yeah.
No, that's that's correct. So just cause something's normal
doesn't mean it's right. But.
Those things are directly corrected in the Bible, and

(49:30):
guarding your home is not corrected in the Bible.
Well, I think I think that I'm making that case.
I know. Yeah, I think, I think I, I
think I'm making that case. Saying that I'm not supposed to
slap people back means I'm not supposed to guard my home.
That doesn't make sense. Well, I I just see no call for
violence because even over there, even if it's talking
about. Violence towards people or

(49:51):
violence towards. Violence.
Can I keep human being? Violence towards another human
being. That's what I'm I'm focusing on.
Human beings can. I say mean what things about
them? You shouldn't.
You should love your enemies. OK, yeah, what if I really,
really don't like them? Then can I say mean things?
Yeah, well, why don't we go to Romans 12?
Go to Romans 12, Romans 12, tough guy, fully armed tough

(50:16):
guy. OK.
What's Romans 12? All right, so Romans 12, we're
going to go down there a little bit further.
Let's see toward the the last section of Romans 12 here.
Let's maybe start in verse 14. I think maybe that's the we can
start there. Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse them. Well, well then, how's that fit

(50:40):
with people coming in and tryingto destroy you?
Well, this has to do with persecution of Christians anyway
and. Which is even more harsh.
That's like crazy. No, exactly.
Look at verse 19. What?
Better way? What better thing to do than die
for your faith? Verse 19 Beloved, never, never

(51:03):
avenge yourselves. Verse 19 And don't forget, never
avenge. Yourselves the the ear off, the
high priest servant or Peter chosen out, the ear off.
Jesus picked up, put it back on and said right, live by the
sword, you die by the sword. Yeah, he discouraged Peter from
that violent action. Yeah, from having a holy war.
He discouraged him from a. Holy war.
But either way, either way. That eliminates one of your one

(51:25):
of your things, one of your reasons to go to war with the
Holy War, right? No, don't do that.
That's not how you persuade people to become Christians.
This is the the pacifism. At this point we could say it
pacifism is what this is. The one that you're advocating
for? Yeah, we no kidding.
Yeah. So since you mentioned that, I
thought I'd so 9 verse 19 though.
No idea. How do you deal with verse 19,

(51:46):
beloved? Never avenge yourselves.
Never avenge yourselves. Leave it to the wrath of God.
Yeah, for as we've got no mine. Don't do you avenge, This is not
yours to take. So no violence.
There there is a no there is a justice system enacted by the
government that God gave authority to to make things
right. You are not supposed to take

(52:06):
judgement or a vengeance on yourwhat for yourself.
What is our action and this non violence specifically?
Talking about persecution anyway, so it doesn't
necessarily. Apply.
Well, that's definitely persecution if someone's punched
me in the face. Yeah, no kidding.
But. So to the.
But why? Are they punching you face?
Are they punched in their face because you're an idiot?
Or are they punched in the face because you're a Christian?
Well, some people. Get punched in the face because

(52:27):
they're an idiot and they say, oh, I'm being persecuted.
No, you're an idiot, right? It's like the person say, oh
man, you know, God's just not blessing me.
I don't have any money for my rent, but they just went to 14
movies last week, right? OK, so some things just God's
punishment on you, just like some things aren't people

(52:47):
persecuting you. Sometimes you just deserve to be
punched in the face. OK, so let's get that straight
to start with. All right, So if it's true
persecution, there are two different things between you
being a moron and being persecuted, right?
So some people are actually being persecuted and no, just

(53:07):
take it like a man like Jesus did, right?
Just like it says right here these.
Were times of persecution? Absolutely.
But I don't think it limits it to only being persecuted for
your faith. That's.
What this passage is about though?

(53:28):
You don't. You might have a hard time with
that. You might have a hard time with
that. It it talks about persecution.
So like, let verse 9, let love be genuine.
That's only during persecution. No, no, it's not only.
This was brought with that. Passage is about that.
A poor what is evil? Hold fast to what is good.
Is that broader than persecution?
No, actually this is one of my favorite passages in the Bible.

(53:49):
This is basically tells you how to live.
I I think it's all. I love I love the title of this
passage. Behave like a Christian.
Is that what you're saying that's?
At the top. Mine says marks of the true
Christians over verse 9. That's what the USB but anyways.
No, I mean the the things in here are not only for those
being persecuted. It's broader than that.

(54:10):
It's broader than that. I'm just making arguments
because you are. So then verse 20, to the
contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him.
If he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
Yeah. For by so doing you'll keep
burning coals on his head. Yeah.
Which I think that's violent. It's shame violent.
It's shame that's violent. So the burning coals on.
My head. That's violence, no?
By so doing, yeah. And so that's, you know, that's

(54:31):
the idea. You get red in the face because
it's hot. That's that's shame.
Red in the face. You overcome evil with good.
Yeah, right. So not with.
How Christian is supposed to actlike these things are how we're
supposed to treat each other? Yeah, OK, yeah.
If I want to show love to, to those around me, show love to
those around me, that that is a better testimony to them than

(54:53):
everything else, right? I, I, my, my job as a Christian
is lead people to Christ. So yeah, if my neighbor is mean
to me and I go and do things back to him and vengeance, of
course, that's not leading him to Christ.
If I take him a plate of cookiesinstead, that's something
different that's going to stand out to them, right?

(55:16):
That has absolutely nothing to do with the government enacting
punishments on evil doers or going to war, though.
This is how individual Christians are to act and live
in our society, to to make a difference in this world and to
be a blessing to those around them and to lead people to
Christ. So I'll just leave it there with

(55:40):
this because I think I think I've presented the best
arguments that I have. I think I've presented those.
I've done it. I think I've done it fairly.
And I, I'd say if, if you, if you would say that you are a
pacifist, if you, if you align with that and you think that
I've misrepresented the view, then please comment.

(56:02):
Please do so or can ask questions to to maybe, you know,
tease out the ideas a little more, something like that.
Get get involved that way. But I think I've done a good job
of presenting the pacifist case.And so I I wouldn't say this
point that I wouldn't I do not hold to pacifism.

(56:23):
I I do not. So that some of that was, you
know, I don't know, for me it's a bit fun, but some of it's kind
of a. Speaking, Speaking of love, your
neighbor, you said the laws had to be repeated in the New
Testament, right? So I just got back down here to
Romans 13. Which part?
Romans 13 Nine Well, it's certain. 80 No one anything

(56:45):
except to love one another. For he who loves one another or
loves another has fulfilled the law for the commandments.
You shall not commit adultery. You should not murder, you
should not steal. You should not bear false
witness. You should not covet and if
there is any other commandment, all are summed up in the same,
namely let your neighbor as yourself, which Jesus said, let

(57:06):
your neighbor as yourself, right?
That was a commander. So those commands are repeated
in the New Testament like. Jesus are yeah, but not not the
Levitical law this is in. The same passage of the
government has authority to to enact to enact that the to
enforce the laws that got set up.
And then immediately after that,hey, here's the laws that

(57:29):
they're supposed to be enforcing.
Do not murder is one of them. So if you do murder, they get to
punish you. And if you steal, they get to
punish. You Well, that's that's not
saying that the government upholds these laws.
Basically. It's it's not upholding.
Don't commit adultery. It should.
It's it's not. It's not.
And not coveting. The government's not policing.

(57:51):
Coveting. OK, No, not even coveting.
Come on. That's a stretch.
That's such a stretch. But.
Yeah, yeah. Love, love God more, anything
else, love your neighbors, yourself.
The whole law hangs on those twocommandments.
It's called even the royal law in other places.
Yeah, it it is the epitome of 'cause you know, law is
morality. It is morality.

(58:13):
It's expressed through a culture.
And so, yeah, we have the basis of any law is, is a morality.
And that's the problem with societies today is they have
laws without the foundation of God.
And so they have this like sort of pseudo morality where they're
like borrowing from godly thingsand stuff, but without that

(58:35):
proper foundation. It just leads to, you know,
crumbling really. And it goes on.
Love does not harm. There's no harm to your
neighbor. Therefore love is the
fulfillment of the law. And to do this, knowing the time
that now it is high time to wakeout of sleep.
For now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

(58:59):
The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
Therefore, let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us
put on the armor of life. All right, hey, let's let's be a
long one. Let's stop.
Let's stop here. And I I want to.
Do a Part 2. I want to do a little more of
this. I feel like we even got started
on what you actually want to talk about.
No, this is good because we're covering a lot.
I think it's the best way to explain these views.

(59:20):
OK. I think it's the most fair
thing. To do recap.
Recap what? What world was your point?
You want you want me to recap onpacifism?
I don't know what your point was, so there OK, let's OK your
point. Was this is typical?
You want me to do it? You started off with talking
about war, right? The the There's four big views.
Are killing. Of what is moral.
OK, that's how I started. There's 4 main views on the

(59:44):
morality of war. Morality of war.
OK. And then and then I said let's,
you know, get get this thing. Holy war.
Hold on. Hold on.
And what's other ones? Yeah, Yeah.
So pacifism, holy war, realism, just war.
OK. Those are the four.
And so then, you know, the juiceis flowing.
We talked about kill versus murder.
What that means, we, we, we dealt with the eye for an eye
passage and how that was for thejudges at the time.

(01:00:06):
And so it wasn't even meant for the individual.
It's the. It's the difference of
institutional versus individual responsibility.
We have to make sure we stay in our lane, so to speak.
And then, and then what I did was I basically took the
position of a pacifist, I think one of the better
representations personally and, and, and, and gave that and, and

(01:00:30):
surprised you with it so that you would have to interact with
that, you know, off the cuff. And so we're going to do another
one and I'm going to pick another one.
But what people know, you know, in the audience is that he's not
going to have time to prepare still, because we're going to do
it right after. The it's not actually a month
later he's going to just give meanother one, right?
Yeah, no, and, and, and pacifism, just as far as that

(01:00:52):
goes. I mean, you can make legitimate
organs for pacifism, right? I think there's a there's a
reason that there are a lot of denominations in Christianity
that hold the pacifism in some way or or form.
Much of the early church, even in medieval times and stuff,
even they they were pacifists. And, and clearly we're not
supposed to just individually fight back when we're harmed,

(01:01:12):
like we're supposed to show the love of God to people like, like
that. That is, I mean, it's commanded
right here in Romans 12, right? Love can cover multitude.
And live but that's also different than war or
self-defense or defending others.
You know it really is a lot of just yourself or or things or

(01:01:33):
obviously in cases of persecution and stuff.
But I'm. Not going to comment anymore
because we need to end so yeah, yeah.
I'm just going to. I'm just going to we're.
Going to end there. OK, hopefully.
You found this beneficial. Hopefully you disagree with Joel
or myself and you can give us comments.
We'd love feedback. Put it down there, yeah.
And it's always good. And I'm sure everybody has a

(01:01:53):
take on this in some way or other.
Oh, yeah, big time. Which is fine.
It is a, it is a big topic with lots of little, little things.
And there's a lot of room for a lot of room for disagreement in
there. There's a lot more coming.
We're going to talk about nuclear war even down the road
here. Yeah.
So we're going to drop. We're going to drop a new Kanye.
So all right, we are going to closeout.

(01:02:13):
Don't forget to like and subscribe and tell your friends.
Yeah, we will see you next time.