Is War Good?!?!?!? Part 1 I Do you have to believe Jesus is God? I BBB 59 FULL EPISODE

Episode 59: Is War actually Good?!?!?!? and Do you actually have to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?Join us as we get started on a new series about Is War Good? Also, we explore the question, "do you have to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?" in the stump the theologian segment.www.brainsandbibles.orgwww.thinklikechrist.org

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of
Brains, Bibles and beyond. Beyond, beyond, beyond.
People's favorite podcast. So glad you have joined us
today, all you budding theologians.
So why don't you come alongside of us and just dig into
something theological? I have no idea what we're going
to talk about today, so grab your theological sceptical and

(00:21):
let's get started. That one almost went down the
road all right. All right.
So our first segment, as always,is Stump the Theologian, and we
are so glad you joined us for Stump the Theologian.

(00:41):
And then this, just to remind you all of the rules, basically,
we ask a question, the audience comes with a question, I come
with a question, random people come with a question, we find
questions, we ask your theologian the question.
And if we can stomp him, then wewin.
If we don't stomp him, well, he doesn't lose so.
I kind of lose. All right, so all right.

(01:03):
So today's question is, do you actually have to believe that
Jesus is God in order to be saved?
Yeah, I'd say so. OK.
Is that OK? Because if he's not OK, if he's

(01:26):
not God. So the the where the.
OK, just so you know where the question comes from.
Now I know the correct answer tothis already, but where this
question comes from is we just have to believe that Jesus died
for your sins to be saved. You don't have to know all
theological truths and everything that that's that's,
that's the spirit behind the question.

(01:46):
All right, all right. That.
Yeah, that. Makes a lot of sense.
It's not a oh I deny that Jesus,God or anything like that.
It's just coming from you need to know all these truths in
order. To be sure, sure, sure.
I think there is extra doctrinessometimes that people throw into
the gospel. Like you have to believe this,
you know there are there are a number of things that you have
to believe the agreement with one of those is Jesus, God.

(02:10):
Yeah. I mean, there's, I think there's
a specific verse that actually says that.
Yeah, there there's, I mean, if you don't, you know, there is.
He couldn't raise himself. You know, that's kind of, that's
not really a thing. He would, he would not be
perfect if he was not God. He would, he'd be born a Sinner
and things, which means he can'tredeem anybody.

(02:30):
So there's lots of actual problems with that.
You have to see him as more thanjust a man.
He is the one that saves you, who can save you.
Only God can save you. You know, there's a few things
there. Even with the other rich young
ruler that came to Jesus, the, you know, he says, you know, oh,
you know, good Rabbi, you know, something like that good
teacher. And he says, you know, why do

(02:52):
you call me good? Because his question was, how do
I inherit eternal life? And so the first question you
used to ask is, why do you call me good?
Because the first thing you wantto establish was I am God.
You know, only God is good. That was his his statement
there. It's off the top of my head.
So it's not, you know, systematic in order here.
But if you went, I think like Mark 10 is probably one of the
passages has rich young ruler. You can see that there is

(03:12):
yourself, but that was the one of the first things you want to
establish. He is God.
OK. And.
Even even the thief on the cross, he doesn't know anything,
right? Today he'll be with me in
paradise. But he even says, you know, I, I
want to be, you know, he talks about your Kingdom.
So he recognized him as the king.
Well, how can that be unless he is God, you know?
So I think he even understood that.

(03:33):
Yeah. OK.
So you'd say yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, be good, OK.
The the background of the question made it make a lot more
sense. It's very.
Very legit. That's a comment.
It was a it was a legitimate question that I had been asked.
Actually, this summer was. The first question thinking to
myself like, well, that's a veryshort answer.
Yeah, yeah, no, no. But I think we're in agreement

(03:55):
on the answer too, as far as yes, yes, you do have to believe
that Jesus is God. That's part of what is in Jesus.
That is one of the parts of believing in Jesus.
But the background the question that makes it make more sense,
not. Just it is interesting to think
like how much can you subtract without compromising you?
Know because this is a conversation we've had actually
even earlier today, we add things to the gospel.

(04:17):
We need to believe this, or we need to believe that as well,
and that aren't part of the gospel.
Sometimes it creates endless arguments that are never solved.
Yeah. And, and there's, there's a
difference between answering, answering a question like if
there's a, if there's something that you don't believe and
that's keeping you from receiving the gospel or, or

(04:37):
accepting the gospel because, you know, someone needs to work
you through. And then and then there's a,
then there is you need to also believe this in order to be
saved, you know, on this two different things, you know, So
sure. That's the, that's the way I
have apologetics, right? Yeah, we were talking about that
earlier. Apologetics in in the Gospel

(04:58):
Sharing the gospel and apologetics and evangelism
answering answering questions toeliminate the barriers that one
may put up in believing. All right, OK, well, let's let's
roll. Let's get on to the main event
here. Yes, I'm.
Pretty excited. Joel, what do you have for us
today? OK, so let me start.

(05:23):
Let me do this way. There's several ways to present
this to you. So is war good?
Yes and no. OK, already it gets complicated.
Yes, war. War is good, but.
War is also bad, right? Like, fair enough.

(05:45):
People die like it's it's not good, but there are reasons for
it. So then you think like in this,
this, this question gets very easily, very quickly.
Emotions get attached to it. Oh, sure.
And so we want to try to detangle ourselves from that and
just decide, be it, what is truth?
Be it any emotionless drone. What is good here?

(06:09):
And so, you know, for example, let's say you have somebody
that's, you know, American citizen, they, they join the
military, they, they go fight a war.
This has happened so many times,right?
And. We've had lots of good American
people who have done this right.Right.
And there's been so much, so much division among the country,

(06:30):
but then also within Christianity of, you know, how
good is that to go there and youknow, you kill these people,
save lives. Sometimes it's even children
that end up dying in things. So there's bombs, right?
The bombs that they don't reallycare who you are, they're going
to blow you up, you know, Right.OK, there's there's some stuff
there sometimes you. Have a drug boat going across

(06:53):
the ocean and get hit by drones.There's all sorts of things that
can. Happen regularly, actually
lately. Yeah.
So, you know, how do how do you deal with that?
How do you know what's good, what's evil?
You know what's right, what's wrong?
So it's a very sensitive issue. Yeah.
So some people would say war is never good, never good.

(07:15):
That's you know. And I can see the argument that.
Pacifist. That's what they called the
argument. I mean, yeah, death and
destruction is not good, right? So I can I can see that.
Jesus says love your enemies. Yeah.
He says just, you know, even submit to those that are
persecuting you. Yeah.
OK, Things like that. And so there's, there's actually
some cases for that. OK.
There's another view that says, you know what essentially war

(07:38):
justifies itself. The idea is this is how the
world works. This is the broken world that
we're in. It's always been this way.
It will always be this way. You know, there's, there's some
modifications to that statement a little bit, but that's
essentially the idea. And so it's, you know, pursuit
of power. It's, it's about political
convenience. This is just how the world

(08:01):
works. And so it's, it's fine, it's
fine no matter, no matter what. You, you, you have the, the old
phrase, you know, all is fair and love and war, you know, kind
of a thing. And so it's kind of like rules
go out the window when it's war.Sure, yeah.
So normal, normal morality, if you will, goes out the door and

(08:22):
you have a new set of code, you know, for ethics and what not,
right? Yeah.
So that that's sort of that viewthere.
Because even in war, you know, they have war crimes, right?
Like certain things like, yeah, you can do this, but you can't
do that. That's just just beyond right.
And some people have different ideas on what that would be.
Sure, of course. And, yeah, and so you think

(08:43):
about, like someone might say really quickly, you know, if
you're an American citizen, you love your country, which I hope
you do. I hope you do.
I do. Whatever.
Country you live and I hope you love your country.
Right, right, right. But you, so you get attached to
it. And so sometimes it can be the
effect of, you know, hey, my family has been the military, my
family's been the military, lotsof friends of the military,
things like that. And so you don't want to say

(09:04):
that they are wrong. And so without thinking about
it, you know, you just simply declare something good.
So really what I'm trying to do is just a think about it, you
know, and maybe you'll come backto the same conclusion in the
end. But what what if you're in, you
know, Russia, China, North Korea, what, you know, think
about all these different countries in the world.
Would it be the same? Would it be the same when they

(09:25):
come to try to kill your relative?
Are they morally just as well? OK, so that's an interesting
one. And where, where are the lines
drawn for all of this? So that the whole IDC of
pacifism, pacifism. There we go.
War is never good. The realism is the one where
it's like, hey, war justifies itself.

(09:46):
It's just the way the world is. The way it is.
Yeah, you have another view thatwould be, well, I don't want to
say the, the phrase just yet 'cause it will trigger
something. It's a, it's a common phrase
that might be misunderstood. So let me hold off for that for
a moment. So it's just the idea that hey,
war is good, you know, for our context here when it is used to,

(10:07):
to spread Christianity and so that that that would change
based on whatever faith system someone's in, you know, war is
good when it's used to spread myfaith system.
So a holy. War.
Holy war. Yes, yeah, Holy war.
I don't want to come out and sayit first because it would
trigger some ideas. Maybe you get certain things in
your head, but that's essentially the idea.

(10:27):
OK. Then you have another view where
essentially there's you. You have government
institutions, they are responsible for all of their
citizens. And so really, it's the goal is
what they would believe is justice and peace.

(10:49):
Yeah, so protect your people, whatever it takes and your
interest. Right.
Yeah, whatever it takes to have justice and peace for all the
citizens. Which is, I would say, probably
the position America would take in theory.
And that's been called just war.Officially right?
Let's not go there yet. We'll see, we'll see.

(11:10):
I I just want to introduce some ideas, right, OK, OK.
And so those are those are kind of the four.
Help but jump to the conclusion.Yeah, I get it.
I get it. Those kind of four major views
on the morality of war. OK, essentially.
OK, I can buy that, so let's explore those views.
So let's let's let's dissect a certain a couple words here.

(11:33):
So you have Exodus 20 verse 13, Exodus chapter 20 verse 13.
I feel like that's the 10 commandments.
That's the 10 commandments we'regoing to #6.
Thou shalt not murder. Well, you know, you look look up
your translation and see what itsays.
You know, most of the time they say you shall not kill or thou

(11:55):
shalt not kill. The new King James, it says
murder. OK, yeah, but but not all
translations are the same. And so the lot of them say kill
there. There's some that say murder and
so, you know, do we need to makea distinction there when it says
don't kill and then. He says murder.
You have killing going on, you know.
What does what? What's your translation say?

(12:17):
Any look of the ESV? I I'd say probably about every
modern translation. ESV says murder also.
But about every modern translation today would say
murder. OK, so but, you know, there's
there's maybe you have a belovedtranslation that's not so modern
and it says kill. And so sometimes that can create
a little bit of an issue as we think about, you know, all the

(12:40):
times that there is killing in Scripture.
And so is it right or is it wrong?
You know? Yeah.
Well a lot of people when they say the tech of man and say kill
right. Right, you repeat the old style.
You're. Not lying, but it actually says
you're not a very false witness against your neighbor.
Correct. Which is a whole other category
of. I think it's that it's more
broad. Yeah, it's it's, yeah, I think
it's. Anyways, that's another issue,

(13:02):
so we'll stop there. We'll do that one later.
OK, so I I would definitely be in the camp of saying you know
you shall not murder is appropriate because murder
assumes moral evil guilt. It assumes that in the word you,
you don't say, you know, the praying mantis murders her
husband, you know, kind of a thing.

(13:23):
We don't use those kind of termsor the mates, you know, the, you
know, the Black Widow, same thing.
Any kind of animals. We say kill because murder
implies morality. Kill either assumes moral good
or it's, ah, moral. It doesn't have any.
There's no moral element to it at all.

(13:44):
I I stomped on an Ant. Right or wrong, you know, and
your views on stomping on ants, we'll say I was trying to attack
my children. But yeah, I, I killed the Ant.
You know, I don't say I murderedthe Ant, though, right?
You know, no matter how you lookat that, you don't say I
murdered the Ant. I killed the Ant.
OK, so that's that. That's something to think about
too, there. So already built into our

(14:07):
language, we understand there's a difference.
Not all killing is murder. You know, if you want to say it
that way, definitely. So then so let's let's kind of
think of that for like wartime, Yeah.
And so is it murder or is it killing?
And so you know what? You want us to throw that out

(14:28):
there in the. Next, I would say in general it
is definitely killing, not murder, although I think murder
from time to time would happen in times of war.
People get carried away, sure, maybe some surrenders and you
kill them anyway, that type of thing.
Sure. We'll see even that may be
justified, you know, and I wouldn't even say it's always
murder because, you know, there's, there's a lot of fine

(14:49):
lines in there. But I mean, if you look at like
the, the life of some of the menof God in the Bible, like David,
the manner for God's own heart. And he actually has a Psalm,
Psalm, you know, Psalm 18. He's like, you know, he's, he's
praising God for teaching. He teaches my hands to war,
right? Right.
So war is is not apparently bad.In fact, God gives gave certain

(15:13):
people the ability to be killingmachines.
I mean, David and his mighty menwere butt kicking and killing
machines. And yet David's, you know, the
sweetest devils of Israel and a man of your God's own heart.
But when he went to battle, he went to battle to kill people
and he did a good job of it. I mean, in fact that's how he

(15:34):
got his first wife was killing some Philistines.
Right, the only way to do it. Yeah, yeah.
I, I mean, I think that's the perfect, that's the perfect, the
perfect thing if some, some young man comes to comes to date
my my little little girl. But I guess, yes, you can earn
it. Bring me.
Bring me 100 foreskins of the Philistines.
Well, before we get ourselves into deep trouble here, we'll

(15:57):
we'll yeah, we'll shelf that oneanyway.
How about that? Let's shelf that one.
So yeah, so the the idea is like, you know, First off, can
there ever be a lawful killing? Now, for us, we have a different
starting point, but, you know, because we're we're talking to a
whole bunch of different people.Yeah.
Like that's the first hurdle that you might even have to

(16:18):
consider. Can there ever, ever be a lawful
killing? You know, if for justice, you
know, someone kills 300 people, mass murder spree, should we
kill him back? You know, is that justice?
Is there a limit? You know, to use the famous
example, right, you know, the Hitler type person, you know, is

(16:38):
that is that person deserving ofdeath?
Yeah. So you start to think like that.
I think a lot of people start tosay justifiable death, Right?
Right. Especially in the case of
punishment. Yeah, I would say so.
And I think the Bible, I think the Bible says so.
All right, so we're, we're kind of getting started.
I don't want to say too much because there's something I want
to do. This might be a little bit
special for us today, so I don'twant to say too much here.

(16:59):
Put me on the spot somewhere. Maybe.
Maybe. We love, we love to hear from
you, too. So you ever, have you ever heard
the expression an eye for an eyewill leave the whole world
blind? Have you heard that before?
I've heard that, yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
I mean, I would agree. Well, because you know, we

(17:21):
everybody offends somebody, right?
Like if you've all this every time you're offended, you go and
you just poke somebody's eye out.
Eventually knows why my eyes left.
So I get that there is there is a place also for grace, right?
But you know where they get thatfrom That phrase?
An eye for an eye. What eye for an eye comes from
the Bible? Yeah.
So is that wrong? No.
So, but leaves the whole world blind there.

(17:43):
The implication is that's wrong,right?
That's a bad system of justice. Yeah, I disagree, but OK.
So talk about it. Yeah.
So what? So is it, you know, because you
know that. So I don't like the phrase.
An eye for an eye will leave thewhole world blind.
I say that's stupid. That's that's my first gut
reaction. Is actually going to do that
right there's going to be one guy left so.

(18:10):
Perhaps, Perhaps. Always.
You're going to stab each other at the same time, just not not.
That's not practical. Oh my goodness.
Well, you can still have one eyeand get somebody else, you know.
Most people say that because they they don't want justice,
right? But but justice is good.
God is a just God. He put governments in charge to
be just and to pull his laws. And there was a moral code that

(18:31):
we're supposed to stand by and, and follow.
And they, the government was given authority by God to uphold
those laws. OK, it's not up for me.
And you just go around poking heels, eyes out.
But, you know, in, in America, we have, you know, a judicial, A
judicial system where people go and they and they're tried.
And if they're found guilty, then they're punished.
And and we don't necessarily do that the maiming thing here,

(18:53):
although some countries still dothat.
Yeah, it happens. So, but where, where do you get
that from? Like for scripture where you
said it's not for us to do it the eye, for the eye, for the
eye, it's not for us to do that.Where do you where do you get
that from? I have to look it up.
When it we OK, all right, well, we, we want to make sure we're
clear. Let me give you I I have three
different references that mention the eye for the eye.

(19:15):
So I'll give you the first one, Exodus chapter 21, verse 24.
Holy cow, I got a whole bunch ofthem.
There's there's there are three big ones here. 282020 yeah 21
through 24. Yeah.
So there's you have like Exodus,Leviticus, Deuteronomy is what I
have these these three passages.So Exodus. 2420 Deuteronomy 1921
Calm Down. Exodus 2126.

(19:35):
He's not calming down all. Right.
All right, so in verse 24, just to cut, you know, and without
context here, it just starts eyefor eye, tooth for tooth, hand
for hand, foot for foot. And then if you want to add 25,
you know, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Yeah, OK. Leviticus 2420 says fracture,
fracture, eye for eye, tooth fortooth.

(19:56):
All right, well, let's let's back it up here to verse 22.
So I'm looking at Exodus chapter21 verse 22.
And it says when men strive together, this is part of the
law. Yeah.
When men strive together means they're this.
Is when the the babies hurt. Right like fist punching.
Would you calm down? So when you get ahead of me
here, when we didn't strive together and hit a pregnant
woman, so they have a fist fightand they knocked the pregnant

(20:19):
lady. Yeah.
OK. So then it says so that.
So the hit was in such a way so that her children come out.
So there's some kind of birth ordelivery.
There's not a delivery going on.Yeah, this is.
But there's no harm. So the child was delivered, but
there's actually no harm that it's a healthy baby.
OK. The one who hit her shall surely
be fine. You're still getting fined for

(20:40):
doing this? Yeah.
Because you shouldn't hit women when you're fighting anybody.
Take it outside. It's not good.
Well, especially pregnant next to pregnant ladies.
Yeah, Yeah. Don't do that.
Come on. Guys.
So this is it says the the person we find as the woman's
husband shall impose on him. So is that serious?
He gets to just make up whateverfee he wants, kind of an

(21:01):
interesting thing says and he shall pay as the judges
determine. So the judges, so they they're
the ones that determine like howmany like like you're going to
make a payments, you have so many years to pay it or, you
know, pay it all at once right now, whatever it is.
Is that also kind of like a a check and balance of if if me
and the husband just make up some ridiculous number, the
judge should be like, OK, come on now.

(21:22):
Yeah. Well, I mean, does it does say
whatever he wants? And so I think that the whole
point of the law is make sure you don't hit a pregnant woman.
Well, yeah, I mean that that's the point.
Right. It's like there's, there's, it
can be as high as he wants, but the judges are the ones that go,
OK, well, we can make it into monthly installments.
And so that way it's, you know, it's a more reasonable, all

(21:43):
right, verse 23 says, but if there is harm that may be
delivered, there's some, some kind of harm says then you shall
pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and it goes on
the whole thing. So what's really interesting
about that is it shows also thata grown man in society has equal
value to an unborn baby. Yeah, equal.

(22:05):
Equal value 100%, which is really that's a whole other
thing, but that's a really cool.I love that one.
So, but what what we're looking at here is what I want to show
is the eye for the eye thing. This that part is not for the
individual, That's for the judges.
This is the law for the judges to actually, what's the word I'm

(22:25):
looking for, like carry out there.
We go execute the judgement, youknow, and so that's not for the
individual to do. OK.
So then you still, you have these other illustrations
because we have other passages, but it's essentially it's all
the same conclusion you could look at yourself.
Yeah, it goes down and it goes through all kinds of stuff that
could happen, right. Like, yeah, the next section it
goes in the the animal control laws.
If you're if you're ox gore somebody, yes, you know, if it

(22:48):
if he was known to gore and it happens, then you're in big
trouble, right. Otherwise you're not as big a
trouble and and you just put the, you know anyway.
All right, so even to help us understand this a little better,
we can hop over to the Sermon onthe Mount.
So we'll go over to Matthew 5, specifically verse 38.
Jesus references this. Yeah.

(23:09):
OK, So with the server on the mount the whole thing, he is
correcting how the Scriptures have been misinterpreted the
whole time. How traditions, man's
traditions, have taken over whatGod actually said.
There's been a bad leadership and they have been making up
their own interpretations. They've been adding a scripture
all together, taking certain things out.

(23:30):
And so he's not preaching new things, he's just preaching
actual good interpretation of ofthe Old Testament.
I was like how he. Even says this, you have heard
that it it it was sad. He didn't say I said it.
Yeah, you heard it was said. You, you heard the
interpretation of what was said,right?
That's what was given is basically what he's saying.

(23:50):
An eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth.
But I tell you not to resist an evil person.
But whoever slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the
other also. So, so as we can, there's
there's other examples given. We can stop there though, for
our purposes. And so he says, you know, yeah,
do not resist the one who's evil.
OK, What are you going to do? You're not going to fight

(24:11):
against them. So if anyone slaps you on the
right cheek, turn them. The other also you turn the
cheek. We get that phrase.
But see, this is this is what was part of the
misinterpretation wise. They use the eye for I as in a
justice thing, as in a vengeancething.
You hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back.
And Jesus, like, Nah, that's not.
What it's supposed to be. And so that's the whole.
Up to you to have vengeance. Yeah, so that's the whole like

(24:34):
eye for eye leaves the world blind because they are
misinterpreting just like they were back in the old days.
And they're saying, yeah, you know, if.
Yeah, of course, if everybody took it upon themselves to apply
their own personal justice system and and take it on
themselves to, you know, exact vengeance however they saw fit,
well, OK, yeah, you're right. That's a problem.

(24:55):
That's gonna be a big problem. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And so there's a whole reason
that there is a justice system put in place.
Yeah, and that's why it's nice to have a a third party who is,
who is. Not involved.
And theory neutral, yeah, can then make judgement on things,
yeah. So, but then we have an
interesting thing going on here because it says don't resist the

(25:15):
one who's being evil to you. And so he gives a very specific
example. He says if anyone slaps you on
the right cheek, smack, you turnthe other, you give the other
one, smack that one too. So I guess we're supposed to be
pacifists, No war. Well, this isn't talking about
war, but yeah. Well, if if you can't, you can't
do this, how can you do war? You know this is like this is

(25:39):
the most bottom line. Talking about personal
vengeance. Well, you said no self-defense,
right? No self-defense.
I don't know if we would go thatfar either.
I don't know, but I'm I'm, by the way, I'm advocating a
certain position here that I mayor may not uphold myself.
Wait, no, you're you're seeming like you are here.

(26:00):
No, I mean this has nothing to do with self-defense either.
Well, someone smacks me. Should I defend myself?
No, I'm turning out of the cheek.
So no self-defense I'm. Just getting slapped by an idiot
is is not needed a self-defense.But no, they're an idiot.
Now come on cuz. They walked up and slapped it.
I mean, you're, you're 62. 3. £300 Why you slapped this guy?

(26:21):
You want lots of other people inthe room?
I mean, clearly he's not very smart.
So what I would say about this one is that so you think about
someone slaps you and it hits you on the right cheek.
OK, So what, what I picture it, you know, First off, if I balled

(26:42):
my my hand to a fist and I punched you in the face, how
would I really hit your right cheek?
So assuming I'm right-handed, because that was the assumption
of the day. So, and I am right-handed.
So, so if I have a fist, my right hand's a fist and I'm
going to punch you and hit you in the right cheek.
How's that happen? It doesn't happen.

(27:03):
And normally you're going to go for like what?
The eye, the nose, right the themouth, OK, something like that.
So, so hitting and it says slaps, right?
Everyone slaps. You was hitting on the right
cheek. That's a backhand slap.
So my right hand backhand slap that hit you the right cheek.
Sure. That's an insult.

(27:23):
That's there's nothing to do with self-defense, because
that's just an insult. I knew it, yes.
They, they weren't actually trying to kill you or like,
leave you, you know, to die kindof a thing.
They're not beating you up. It's an insult.
And so the idea is if somebody just if someone slaps me in the
face, I can recover. Yeah.

(27:45):
Yeah. My prides hurt, perhaps, you
know, something like that. I might be embarrassed or
ashamed or just angry, depends on the situation.
Sure, maybe all of them. But I but I'm OK physically.
I can recover from that. Yeah.
And so that's the idea. It's just an insult.
And so, and the other things too, It's, it's a matter of
inconvenience. You know, someone takes your,

(28:06):
you know, they, they, they goingto sue you for your tunic.
The idea is that it's wrongful. That's the, that's the idea
behind it. It's wrongful.
And so they go, OK, well, you can have my cloak too, because
I'm not about the earthly things, you know, you know, I'm
going to love my enemies. You know, the, the whole, the
Roman soldier, he could command you to carry his stuff for one

(28:27):
mile. He could demand that.
And there's milestones everywhere.
So you know exactly what a mile was and he says, you know what
that happens to you go, go 2 miles, carry 2 miles for him.
And he's like, like, boy, what an impact that has, right?
That that's sort of a thing. Even the person that begs just,
you know, give give it to him ityou know, the assumption is that
if you have it, OK, sure. If you don't have.

(28:47):
It's hard to hard to give. Right, right.
So there's some assumptions there, but you get the ideas.
And so Jesus is actually preaching the text correctly.
He goes, look, that's not for you, that's not for you.
This, this is your part. So there's like the individual
and the institution. So we have to determine what is
this for the individual or the institution.
The eye for an eye was for the institution, the judicial

(29:08):
system. And then for this part, love
your enemies. That's the individual.
Yeah, just for an insult. It doesn't.
It doesn't say anything about self-defense here at all.
I don't think this is just a handling insults and people
taking advantage of you, that kind of a thing.
OK, Yeah. All right.
I'm on board. I'm on board he.
He, he OK, this is this is our warm up.

(29:30):
So I'm going to take a certain position.
OK. And I want you to react to it
OK. All right, all right.
All right, there there's. Like I said, I introduced 4
systems in the beginning. OK.
Which position you're going to take first?
You're going to take all of them.
Just just react, just react to just react to whatever I say,
whatever I say. OK, so I'll, I'll just tell you,

(29:53):
you know, I'm, I'm a character here.
OK, It's OK. So I'll tell you where I'm at.
OK, All right. If I look at all of Jesus
teachings and his example that he gave us, he gave us
specifically an example to follow and all of that, I'd say
he is, he was calling his his followers to not be violent.
Wouldn't that be true that he's not wanting us to be violent

(30:16):
people? Would you say so?
No. You don't think so?
I wouldn't say that, no. I.
Think I don't, I don't think, I don't see.
Anything. I think there's that, Yeah.
I. Think I don't think Jesus ever
advocated for violence. Well depend.
Do you find violence? You're going to hurt people, OK?
So. Maybe.

(30:36):
What? A whip.
Hurt. Possibly as Jesus was chasing
him on with. Did he ever actually whip a
person? He's chasing him out with a
whip. That sounds violent.
Doesn't mean he whipped a personand then I don't think he did
there's. This, there's this one passage
in the Revelation where he comesback and and kills everybody so
well. So violence has a place.

(30:56):
But that's God. That's God's place, not our
place. Well, you said Jesus didn't
never do violence. Well, in this earthly ministry,
when he's giving us an example, so then God can do it, of
course. And so when God does it, the
question is, is well, should we do it too?
But I think he was taking a position there where he was
leading them and what violence he spoke a word and his enemies

(31:16):
were destroyed. So I I don't see a place in
Jesus earthly ministry where he's actually calling us to do
harm to anybody, to be violent anyway.
To advocate violence or go to war.
He, he says love your enemies. He, he's, you know, turn, turn
the cheek. You know, the insults.
Even Christians should not participate in lethal violence
or war. That's my position.

(31:38):
That's what I that's my position.
OK, Why is that your position? Because I'm taking it.
OK, That's as simple as that. OK, OK, alright.
So. So we're still back to to the
government thing, right? So Leviticus for God's giving
the law to people to follow. Leviticus 24.

(32:00):
Let me turn there. Go ahead.
Go. Ahead, there's lots of things we
put to death for which most of them aren't carrying out
anymore. But some of that had
traditionally up to more recently been carried out would
be like Leviticus 2417. Whoever kills any man shall
surely be put to death. Whoever kills an animal shall
make it good for animal for animal, right?

(32:22):
Like this is a restitution thing.
Sure, sure, you kill a person, well, you get put to death, but
this isn't for me and you to carry out.
This is for the government to carry out, you know, with the
judges and all the things. Right.
Well, in fact, this is the Mosaic law that's not meant for
anybody today. So we can't, we can't use that.
Says who? We can't.
The Mosaic Law is obsolete. This is the law of our land.

(32:44):
Well, this is, but you're quoting scripture.
Here. Oh yeah, absolutely.
And so this is this is the old covenant, which in Hebrews is
very clear. It says it's, it's obsolete, you
said. That Jesus never advocated for
it. Is Jesus talking?
Jesus is the word OK, but but his earthly ministry where he
gave us today an example to liveby he.
Came to fulfill the law and not get rid of it all right, He

(33:05):
never he never said he. Did fulfill He never.
Said that the moral laws were supposed to be abandoned and
gotten rid of. He, He upheld every prophecy
that was there. He fulfilled it completely.
He. Didn't kill everyone yet.
Well, as far as he's supposed to.
So far, he has not left any prophecy behind.
Let me finish reading. Let me finish reading what that
what what Leviticus says if a man if a man causes

(33:27):
disfigurement to his neighbor ashe has done so shall be done to
him and then goes into the factory factory eye for eye
tooth to do with the whole that whole thing.
Once again though back to this is not you having judgement
personal vengeance. This is this is supposed to be
carried out by the government that God gave the authority to.

(33:47):
Yeah, but God gave those commands back then.
Yeah. What's he commanding us today?
The thing, same things. I don't think so.
Yeah. So you.
But you if you take one part of the law as over us today, then
you have to have the whole law as over us today.
No, no. It's it's one unit.
No, I don't have to have. That oh boy, oh boy, no, the

(34:10):
Bible never chops it up like that.
Ceremonial, civil moral. That's never your fall into a
trap there. No, 'cause look at the 10
commandments, look at the 10 commandments.
There's no ceremonial stuff in there.
It's all, it's how you, you loveGod, you love people.
Just so Jesus summed it up. So Jesus, Jesus specifically
advocated for that part of the law and and he just summed up in

(34:31):
2 Love God, love people. Yes.
Well well this passage here tillit gives you the consequences
for not doing the part that lovethe people part specifically
harming others. All right, so, so here.
Here's the deal. Here's the deal.
Let me, let me 'cause I have to cover this for you, and we're

(34:52):
going to go to Hebrews 8. We'll go to Hebrews chapter 8
here. OK, And we'll start with verse
6, I think. OK, so it says.
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as
much more excellent than the than the old as the covenant He

(35:13):
mediates. Is better new covenant better
than old covenant since it is enacted on better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have
been no occasion to look for a second.
For he finds fault with with them when he says and when he
goes on. I'm not sure how much I should
actually read here, but let's godown to verse 13 for the

(35:35):
punchline. And Speaking of a new covenant,
he makes the first one obsolete.And what is becoming obsolete
and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So the Old Covenant is no longerhas any binding at all now that.
Doesn't mean the moral code thatGod set forth doesn't have
binding. Well, now here's the here's the
safety for you. What is repeated in the new

(35:56):
covenant is is carried through so.
Like I just said, he repeated. OK.
But like, you know, keeping the Sabbath isn't repeated, right?
So, so we don't have to, that's why we don't hold to that.
OK. But the way you were talking
about is not repeated in the Newcovenant, the judicial law for
Israel. That's not repeated in the New

(36:17):
Covenant. OK.
So we don't have so that does not have any binding over me
today. What are you talking about?
You you're advocating for violence based on Leviticus.
I'm advocating it for justice. You did?
No, you said. Justice.
You went to Leviticus, right? Yeah, Leviticus 24 and you were

(36:43):
talking about verse, you know, 17 Whoever takes a human life
shall surely be put to death. Yeah, that law is not binding
over us today. Why not?
Because once again, it's a part of the Old Covenant that's been
made obsolete. No, it's part of the moral code.
You're making that up. No, yeah.
No, no, there's not you. You find me anywhere in the
Bible at all where somebody splits up the law and did in

(37:07):
Hebrews did it say the old covenant is obsolete?
Except for the moral part, It didn't say that.
No, no, it's a covenant. Yeah, well, let the audience
decide on this one. OK.
But I think I think that I'm obviously right.
So that's a mean thing to say like that.
I disagree. It is mean.
Thanks. Eh, I was being a jerk when I

(37:29):
said that part. OK, here we go.
All right, let's go on. Let me, let me read, Let me read
Romans 13. Oh, he's jumping ship.
OK, no, let every person be subject to the governing
authorities. For there is no authority except
for God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
So he sets up governments, right, And authorities.

(37:51):
Therefore, whoever resists authorities resists what God has
appointed, And those who resist will incur judgement.
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct.
But too bad, All right, why are rulers A terror?
Too bad conduct because they're going to punish you, because
they're acting on the authority that God gave them to uphold his

(38:13):
moral law. Would you not?
Would you have No Fear of the one who has an authority?
Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval for if
God's servant or for he is God'sservant for your good.
And what if you do wrong? Be afraid, for he does not bear
the sword in vain. Who God gives the government

(38:35):
that the sword to will justice, right?
What's the sword used for? It's not the pat you on the
back. Well, for he is a servant of
God, an adventurer who carries out God's wrath on the
wrongdoer. Therefore, 1 must be in
subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the

(38:56):
sake of conscience. OK it.
To God gives governments in the New Testament authority to carry
out justice with the sword. So what I quick commercial I
want to just insert again for the sake of our audience that I
am advocating for a position that I may or may not hold

(39:16):
myself. OK, so it's just for this, you
know, for we're having a, a, a lively debate here.
And so I'm taking a position. OK.
So with that being said, with that commercial, then I'll jump
back into it. All right.
So, and by the way, and this is Nate's totally caught off guard

(39:37):
by all this stuff. He didn't prepare.
He didn't. I just, I jumped.
I threw this at him. Yeah.
So just just so everyone knows, it's all it's all fair here.
OK. So, you know, when I read this
here in Romans 13, I, I'm looking for, you know, my part
specifically, first as an individual.
And of course, looking through this as an individual, I would
still see no call for me to be violent in any way myself.

(40:01):
Not unless you're part of the government.
Well, OK, so then you have you do have your.
Part that your call to do is don't be bad and you don't have
to fear the punishment, but if you are bad.
Yeah. Be afraid, yeah, for he does not
bear the sword in vain. OK.
And so, you know, with the sword, that could mean a lot of
things. And really I.

(40:23):
Not really. It's, you know, it's really just
punishment. It could be fees, it could be
fines. It could be, depends on what you
did wrong. So you can interpret that the
sword doesn't have to be something like whips or a
shooting squad or something likethat.
Could just be a sword. It could well does that.
What happens today in America? Was there a sword involved?

(40:44):
No, but you get the illustration, You get the point.
You get the point of what the sword is for.
It's symbolic, right? No.
So it's a literal sword. It was then.
Is it today? Well, we don't have to use
swords anymore. We have better weapons.
OK, so. We have electric chairs and
hanging nooses. So a sword can be a chair now

(41:05):
and. Just sit in the.
Corner, all right, yeah, maybe just sit in the corner kind of
punishment, yeah. So I mean.
I'm not so afraid of sitting in the corner.
It it's obviously symbolic to fit all cultures in all times,
just that there's punishments, that's all it's saying.
So sure, there can be punishments.
It doesn't have to be bloodshed.No, no.

(41:26):
Then when you read at face value, the sword pretty sure
causes blood. Yeah, well, you know, that's, I
guess that's just your interpretation.
No, there's no. Interpretation needed.
It's just that sword. He's I think you're violent with
your words. I'm not.
I need a safe space. Well, it says if I'm going to
live in terror, that's one sitting in the corner.
So. All right, but just a quick

(41:51):
check. Are you having fun with this
conversation? Yeah, because I'm having loads
of fun with this conversation. OK.
All right. This sounds like a normal
conversation actually. All right, here we here we go
What's up? I'm I'm ready for I'm ready to
continue here, so. That's that's that's my New
Testament passage on the government has has the authority

(42:11):
from God to enact justice on hisbehalf.
OK, so let me just. Now now also, the government in
theory is supposed to enact God's, God's moral code, not
their own make up stuff, right? They're they're, they're given
authority by God to obey Him. They they have to be.

(42:32):
Submissioned on behalf of the people to protect the people.
Now. And that's where we get in lots
of trouble when governments don't do that and they make up
their own rules and they and they're not just and that's all
kinds of problems. I want to be careful.
I think we're drifting into another topic.
I want to be careful. I want to be careful to have a
barrier there so that we don't. OK.
So the idea of like submitting to governments even when they're

(42:55):
evil kind of thing, I want to, Iwant to table that for another
time. Yeah, and that's a whole other
conversation with America. That's the one.
The ultimate authority of America is not the government,
it's the people. We're tabling it, we shelving
it. We the people of the United
States, but yes. OK, All right, shelved.
OK, so here's my next. Just let me, you know, do this.
OK, so then would you say just kind of follow on with me here?

(43:16):
Would you say that God best reveals himself in the Son
Jesus? So the triune Godfather, Son,
Holy Spirit, as I want to make sure we're not, you know, I'm
not saying something else, but just that God is is best
revealed through the Son Jesus. I would say so.

(43:38):
I think that's at least as far as like our human understanding
can understand, right? I mean you only.
Like necessarily see the Father,see the Holy Spirit's, You
can't, you know, it's like they're at work, obviously, and
they're doing lots of things, but it's more invisible, more
invisible. Work.
I mean you can. Make some arguments here there,
but then it's not very clear. I I would go OK.

(44:00):
Best best revealed Jesus Christ's son All right would you
also agree separate thing here? Would you also agree that the
specifically the earthly ministry of Jesus in the 1st
century, one of the things it accomplished was to leave us an
example to live by? Yes.

(44:23):
OK, all right, Great. Yeah.
OK. And did you notice how Jesus
suffered even to the point of crucifixion and he even forgave
enemies, but he never killed an enemy.
He never killed them. Yeah.
Although although this is now, Imean, that was the whole plan of

(44:43):
God since before time began, right?
So. So that doesn't quite apply to
me. In the whole time I was dying.
For your sins. But he gave us that example.
So that was. Of how to treat enemies right.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, individually.
I'm, I don't see, you know, if, if even someone breaks in my
house or something, I mean, I can, I can try to, you know,

(45:05):
lead my family to safety or something, but I really
shouldn't like kill somebody or something, you know, that that's
not well. That's a whole.
Well, self-defense, self-defense, self-defense.
Keep killing in self-defense. Yeah, which I would say.
Is a murder. Probably wouldn't even do.
I would. I would.
I would. I would kill in defense of
others. I mean, I care less about

(45:27):
myself, but you harm one of my children or my wife and I'm
going to probably hurt you severely, right?
You would let someone kill you then?
Let. Probably not.
But I'm I'm clarifying. I mean I would if I was in a an
awkward situation I would probably leave.
But if if absent of leaving if Ihave the opportunity to stop

(45:48):
them, of course I would. But if you are harming someone
else, I most definitely have a moral obligation to stop stop
the wicked man from harming the innocent.
Yeah, I mean, I, I just see even, you know, people
mistreating Jesus to the point of death.
He's our example. And he never fought back and he
didn't kill anyone. So I, you know, that's where

(46:10):
that's my position in this position that I'm sharing with
everybody right now. Yeah, yeah, that same
commercial. That he didn't.
He didn't fight back. OK, All right, well, there's.
No argument there. Right piece of the puzzle there.
He did not fight back. So that's why I won't.
Either like a like a lamb to theslaughter.
Right, I'm going to be a lamb. OK, All right, how about this
one? We're.
Going to prove by that. Because I want to be like

(46:32):
Christ, and that's how I see we're going to be like Christ in
this position. OK, so then the the church,
would you agree that the church is in direct contrast to the
earthly government? There's a big difference between
government and church. OK, wouldn't you say so that's

(46:58):
like that's a contrast society. Yeah, no.
Church and government. Church and state, right?
Well, I'm not saying those words.
What? What I'm?
As a Baptist, is part of your beliefs.
Well, I am upholding a position here that I may or may not
believe myself. OK, OK.
All right. Hold on, hold on.
So the the church, I mean, it's a contrast society over against

(47:19):
the state. It's calling, the calling of the
church is to really embody the ethics of the Kingdom, all
right, Not to wield the sword. Hold on, Hold on, Hold on, hold
on. OK, let me pull this one up.
I got one more sentence. Christians may pay taxes and
obey laws, but refuse to kill all.
Right. So Jesus.

(47:40):
Jesus telling a story. OK, what's reference he's?
Not really telling a story, he'sjust make it a reference that
everybody would understand give.Me a reference script reference.
What's what part of the Bible you read from?
What it says? Huh.
This is weird because it says no.

(48:03):
There we go. I see it now.
Maybe I'll figure it out if you start reading.
It Yeah. Well, you you've heard this
story before. OK, Mark 327.
No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods
unless he first binds a strong man, and then he will plunder
his house. Right, Right.
The idea is. And there's other references
here. Hold on.
I can pull the other ones. Well, what?

(48:23):
What's your point of that one? Jesus is telling us, hey, it's
OK to guard your house, right? You can defend your stuff.
I don't think he's still a strong.
Man, fully armed, guards his ownpalace.
His goods are in peace. Why are they in peace?
Because he's guarding. Them.
Well, yeah, but who cares about guarding?
His goods for Crown. Not even about earthly things.
Let him take the earthly things you know.

(48:44):
You know what you just said? He says if someone sues you for
your attunement, give him your cloak.
Also. Yeah, who cares about that?
Back to another thing though. We we already.
Covered that. That's the same idea.
Why? Why am I going to fight over my
earthly stuff? Not the same.
Idea If they want my earthly stuff, let them.
Let them steal it and then I'll I'll offer them a cup of sugar
too. Yeah, well Jesus is saying here
and she guard your house. He's not saying to guard your

(49:04):
house. Well, he's he's just assuming
everybody's going to guard theirhouse.
But but you're he's not commanding to guard the house.
Your assumption is that his assumption is that everyone
guards the house, but that's notwhat it says.
A a strong man, fully armed, guards this out and and when he
guards his own palace, guess what happens?
It's good you're in peace because nobody going to break in

(49:26):
the house when they know you have guns.
This is when they were calling the Holy Spirit Satan and
because they said the only reason you're doing these
miracles, Jesus is because you actually have the power of Satan
in you doing it. This, this is a really, really
big deal. Matthew 12 parallel passage
blasting the Holy Spirit kind ofthing, the unpardonable sin,
right? And so it says, you know, he was

(49:49):
possessed by Beelzebul and by the Prince of demons.
He cast out the demons and he called them to him and he said
to them in parables. So this is this is Jesus parable
to explain how they're wrong about that.
How can Satan cast out Satan? If a Kingdom is divided against
itself, that Kingdom cannot stand.
If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be
able to stand. And if Satan has risen up

(50:09):
against himself and is divided, he cannot stand.
But it's coming to an end. In other words, Satan and I are
not working together because we we're doing the opposite things,
you know. OK, so then he says, but no one
can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods.
So who's the one plundering goods here in this parable?
The devil. Devil Plunders.

(50:31):
I think Jesus is the one plundering here.
Oh Jesus plundering here. Look at it.
No. No one can enter a strong man's
house and plunder his goods unless he first binds a strong
man. Yeah.
But the other parallel passage says it if you're if you guard
well, the one Luke Luke 1121 when a strongman fully armed
guards his own palace, his goodsare in peace.
That's. Just the truth.
That's just the general truth. Yeah, exactly.

(50:52):
And that's what Jesus saying as a general truth.
Yeah, it it happens. It's OK to guard your house.
That's. What he's saying, that's not
what he. Said he everybody does it.
He didn't say he shouldn't do it, he said everyone does.
It let's go to that passage. What was that passage?
I'll handle that one now too. 1121.
Same. Same book, No Luke.
Mark Luke 1121. OK.
It's it's, it's the same passage.

(51:13):
It's just the Luke version of it.
So that's what I'm saying. Same.
Same meaning. OK, so I'm saying it might not
be Jesus doing the plundering. So he's like, if I, if I cast
out demons, verse 19 If I cast out demons by Beelzebel Satan,
by whom do your sons cast them out?
Therefore they will be your judges.
So the idea is like he's castingout demons.
In other words, he's bound the strong man.

(51:33):
So he's plundered his goods. He's he is in charge, he says.
But if it is verse 20, but if itis by the finger of God that I
cast out demons and the Kingdom of God has come upon you.
When a strong man fully armed guards his own palace, Satan,
his own Kingdom, his goods are safe.
But when one stronger than he, Jesus is stronger than him,

(51:56):
attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his arm in which
he trusted and divides the spoil.
And so we even have that that imagery in other parts of
Scripture, even Ephesians 4. I think it's verse like 10.
I think who? Is not with me, Is against me.
Psalm 6018. Yeah, they're with me.
Scatters. Yeah.
So it's not saying for us to guard our homes and kill people

(52:20):
that break in. He's not saying not to.
OK, but he. Uses this example.
I'm saying is he uses an examplebecause everybody guards their
home. It's just assumed that you're
supposed to guard your home. So in this instance, you're
supposed to. Protect what God has given you.
In this instance, my claim is that there is no call for
violence. Your claim is that Jesus
pledgering homes. And then, well, he plundered

(52:41):
Satan's Kingdom. Yeah, yeah.
And so, and of course that's he's God.
He's obviously he's attacking Satan, yes, but I'm talking
about the another human being, ahuman being to a human being.
And and so, you know, here you have a claim saying that Jesus
is commanding us to use violenceto protect ourselves.

(53:02):
And I want to see where that's at.
He used the. He used the example.
The assumption is that everybodywill protect their home, because
why would you not protect your home?
I I think he's not. Everyone's a strong man.
Not everybody has the ability. That's why the fully armed part
comes in handy. Well, what?
What's he armed with? His armor?

(53:22):
That's not an offensive weapon, even.
Call him what you want. Well, you don't use armor to
hurt somebody. He's.
Fully armed. Where OK it?
Said fully armed didn't. It my ESV says he takes away his
armor. Yeah, this one says fully armed.
Well, oh, oh the right. OK, it does in the beginning,

(53:44):
beginning of verse 21 later it says.
Fully armed so. Fully armed.
So what does that mean? Means you.
Have armor, sword, shell and everything.
You're full armed if you you gotthe whole suit on.
If you finish the sentence it says he takes away his armor in
which he trusted. So that's what it's talking
about. Was this fully armed just
talking about the armor? Well.
You know, it's fully armed and and.

(54:06):
Satan thought he had a well defended Kingdom.
Yeah, Jesus, so busted in got him he.
Uses this example because guys guard their homes.
That's normal. Well, of course the majority of
people are unbelievers. Of course they're going to act
evil. And even lots of Christians act
evil. Doesn't mean it's right.
It's. Just normal.
Just because people do it. It's just normal to guard your
home. Well, I mean.

(54:26):
Yes, yes, it is normal to guard your home.
It's it's normal just to please yourself and have your own
priorities over God's too. Doesn't mean it's right.
Yeah, no, that's that's correct.So just.
Because something's normal doesn't mean it's right.
But. Those things are directly
corrected in the Bible, and guarding your home is not
corrected in the Bible. Well, I think I think that I'm
making that case. I know.

(54:49):
Yeah, I think, I think I, I think I'm making that case.
Saying that I'm not supposed to slap people back means I'm not
supposed to guard my home. That doesn't make sense.
Well, I I just see no call for violence because even with
their, even if it's talking about.
Violence towards people or violence towards violence can.
I can't. Human being, violence towards
another human being. That's what I'm I'm focusing on
human beings. Can I say mean things about

(55:10):
them? You shouldn't.
You should love your enemies. OK, yeah, what if I really,
really don't like them? Then can I say mean things?
Yeah, well, why don't we go to Romans 12?
Go to Romans 12, Romans 12, tough guy, fully armed tough
guy. OK.
All. Right, So Romans 12, we're going

(55:32):
to go down there a little bit further.
Let's see toward the the last section of Romans 12 here.
Let's maybe start in verse 14. I think maybe that's the we can
start there. Bless those who persecute you.
Bless and do not curse them. Well, well then, how's that fit
with people coming in and tryingto destroy you?

(55:55):
Well, this has to do with persecution of Christians anyway
and. Which is even more harsh.
That's like crazy. No, exactly.
Look at verse 19. What better way, what better
thing to do than die for your faith?
Verse 19. Beloved, never, never avenge
yourselves. Verse 19.

(56:16):
And don't forget, never. Avenge.
Yourselves the ear off, the highpriest servant or Peter choses
out, the ear off. Jesus picked up and put it back
on and said, right, live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Yeah, so he discouraged Peter from that violent action.
Yeah, from having a holy war. He discouraged him from a holy.
War, but either way, either way that.
Eliminates one of your, one of your things, one of your.

(56:36):
Reasons to go to war with the Holy War, right?
No, don't do that. That's not how you persuade
people to become Christians. This is the the pacifism.
At this point we could say it pacifism is what this is.
The one that you're advocating for?
Yeah. With no kidding, Yeah.
So since you mentioned that, I thought I'd so 9 verse 19,
though, no idea. How do you deal with verse 19?

(56:56):
Beloved, never avenge yourselves.
Never avenge yourselves. Leave it to the wrath of God.
Yeah, for his we've got no mine.Don't do you avenge, This is not
yours to take. So no violence.
There there is that. No, there is a justice system
enacted by the government that God gave authority to to make
things right. You are not supposed to take

(57:17):
judgement or a vengeance on yourwhat for yourself.
What is our action and this non violence specifically?
Talking about persecution anyway, so it doesn't
necessarily. Apply.
Well, that's definitely persecution.
Someone's punched me in the face.
Yeah, no kidding. But.
So to the. But why?
Are they punching your face? Are they punching their face
because you're an idiot? Or are they punched in the face
because you're a Christian? Well, some.
People get punched in the face because they're an idiot and

(57:38):
they say, oh, I'm being persecuted.
No, you're an idiot, right? It's like the person say, oh
man, you know, God's just not blessing me.
I don't have any money for my rent, but they just went to 14
movies last week, right? OK, so some things just God's
punishment on you, just like some things aren't people
persecuting you. Sometimes you just deserve to be

(58:00):
punched in the face. OK, so let's get that straight
to start with. All right, So if it's true
persecution, there are two different things between you
being a moron and being persecuted, right?
So some people are actually being persecuted and no, just
take it like a man like Jesus did, right?

(58:23):
Just like it says right here these.
Were times of persecution? Absolutely.
But I don't think it limits it to only being persecuted for
your faith. That's.
What this passage is about though?
You you might have a hard time with that.
You might have a hard time with that.
It it talks about persecution. So like, let verse 9, let love

(58:46):
be genuine. That's only during persecution.
No, not it's not only. It's brought about this.
Passage is about that. A poor what is evil?
Hold fast to what is good. Is that broader than
persecution? No, actually this is one of my
favorite passages in the Bible. This is basically tells you how
to live. I I think it's all.
I love I love the title of this passage.
Behave like a Christian. Is that what you're saying

(59:08):
that's at the top? Mine says marks of the true
Christians over verse 9. That's what the ESV.
But anyways. No, I mean the the things in
here are not only for those being perceived.
It's broader than that. It's.
Broader than that, I'm just making arguments because you
are. So then verse 20, to the
contrary, if your enemy's hungry, feed him.

(59:28):
If he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
Yeah. For by so doing you'll keep
burning coals on his head. Yeah.
Which I think that's violent. It's shame violent.
It's shame that's violent. So the burning coals on.
My head. That's violence, no?
By so doing, yeah. And so that's, you know, that's
the idea. You get red in the face because
it's hot. That's that's shame.
Red in the face. You overcome evil with good.
Yeah, right. So not with.

(59:49):
How Christian is supposed to actlike these things are how we're
supposed to treat each other? Yeah, OK, yeah.
If I want to show love to, to those around me, show love to
those around me, that that is a better testimony to them than
everything else, right? I, I, my, my job as a Christian

(01:00:09):
is lead people to Christ. So yeah, if my neighbor is mean
to me and I go and do things back to him and vengeance, of
course, that's not leading him to Christ if I take him a plate
of cookies instead. That's something different
that's going to stand out to them, right?
That has absolutely nothing to do with the government enacting
punishments on evil doers or going to war, though.

(01:00:32):
This is how individual Christians are to act and live
in our society, to to make a difference in this world and to
be a blessing to those around them and to lead people to
Christ. So I'll just leave it there with
this because I think I think I've presented the best

(01:00:53):
arguments that I have. I think I've presented those.
I've done it. I think I've done it fairly.
And I, I'd say if, if you, if you would say that you are a
pacifist, if you, if you align with that and you think that
I've misrepresented the view, then please comment.
Please do so or can ask questions to to maybe, you know,

(01:01:17):
tease out the ideas a little more, something like that.
Get get involved that way. But I think I've done a good job
of presenting the pacifist case.And so I'll, I'll go ahead and
say this point that I wouldn't Ido not hold to pacifism.
I, I do not. So that some of that was, you
know, I don't know. For me it's a bit fun, but some

(01:01:39):
of it's kind of a. Speaking, speaking to Love your
neighbor, you said the laws had to be repeated in the New
Testament, right? So I just got back down here to
Romans 13. Which part?
Romans 13 Nine Well certain 80 No one anything except to love
one another. For he who loves one another or
loves another has fulfilled the law for the commandments.

(01:02:03):
You shall not commit adultery. You should not murder.
You should not steal. You should not bear false
witness. You should not covet and if
there is any other commandment, all are summed up in the same,
namely love your neighbor as yourself, which Jesus said love
your neighbor as yourself, right?
That was a commander. So those commands are repeated
in the New Testament like. Jesus are yeah, but not not the

(01:02:25):
Levitical law. Political laws not repeated.
This is in the same passage of the government has the authority
to to enact to enact that the toenforce the laws that got set up
and then immediately after that,hey, here's the laws that
they're supposed to be enforcing.
Do not murder is one of them. So if you do murder, they get to

(01:02:46):
punish you. And if you steal, they get to
punish. You Well, that's that's not
saying that the government upholds these laws.
Basically. It's it's not upholding.
Don't commit adultery. It should.
It's it's not, it's not. And not coveting.
The government's not policing, coveting.
No, but. Supposed.
OK, no, not even coveting. Come on.
That's a stretch. That's such a stretch.

(01:03:08):
But. Yeah, yeah.
Love, love God more, anything else, Love your neighbor,
yourself. The whole law hangs on those two
commandments. It's called even the royal law
in other places. Yeah, It it is the epitome of
because, you know, law is morality.
It is morality. It's expressed through a
culture. And so, yeah, we have the basis
of any law is, is a morality. And that's the problem with

(01:03:33):
societies today is they have laws without the foundation of
God. And so they have this like sort
of pseudo morality where they'relike borrowing from godly things
and stuff, but without that proper foundation.
It just leads to, you know, crumbling really.
And it goes on. Love does not harm.

(01:03:53):
There's no harm to your neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And to do this, knowing the timethat now it is high time to wake
out of sleep. For now our salvation is nearer
than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day
is at hand. Therefore, let us cast off the
works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of life.

(01:04:17):
All right, hey, let's let's be along one.
Let's stop let's stop here. And I I want to do you're going
to do a Part 2. I want to do a little more of
this. I.
Don't feel like we even got started on what you actually
want to talk about. No, this is good because we're
covering a lot. I think it's the best way to
explain these views. OK, I think it's the most fair
thing to. Recap.
Recap what? What world was your point?
You want you want me to recap onpacifism?

(01:04:38):
I don't know what your point was, so there OK, let's OK your
point was this is. Typical.
You want me to do it? You started off with talking
about war, right? The the there's four big.
Views are killing. Of what is moral.
OK that's that's how I started. There's 4 main views on the
morality of war. Morality of war.
OK, and then and then I said let's get get this thing.

(01:05:00):
Holy War. Hold on, hold on.
And what's other ones? Yeah, Yeah.
So pacifism, holy war, realism, just war.
OK, Those are the four. And so then, you know, the juice
is flowing. We talked about kill versus
murder, what that means. We, we, we dealt with the eye
for an eye passage and how that was for the judges at the time.
And so it wasn't even meant for the individual.
It's never meant for the individual.
It's the, it's the difference ofinstitutional versus individual

(01:05:23):
responsibility. We have to make sure we stay in
our lane, so to speak. And then, and then what I did
was I basically took the position of a pacifist.
I think one of the better representations personally and,
and, and, and gave that and, andsurprised you with it so that
you'd have to interact with that, you know, off the cuff.

(01:05:44):
And so we're going to do anotherone and I'm going to pick
another one. But what people know, you know,
in the audience is that he's notgoing to have time to prepare
still, because we're going to doit right after he goes.
It's not actually a month later you're going to just give me
another one, right? Yeah, no.
And and, and pacifism, just as far as that goes.
I mean, you can make legitimate organs for pacifism, right?

(01:06:07):
I think there's there's a reasonthat there are a lot of
denominations in Christianity that hold the pacifism in some
way or or form. Much of the early church, even
in medieval times and stuff, even they they were pacifists.
And, and clearly we're not supposed to just individually
fight back when we're harmed, like we're supposed to show the
love of God to people like, likethat.
That is, I mean, it's commanded right here in Romans 12, right?

(01:06:29):
Love can cover multitude. And live but that's also
different than war or self-defense or defending
others. You know it really is a lot of
just yourself or or things or obviously in cases of
persecution and stuff. But I'm.
Not going to comment anymore because we need an end so yeah.

(01:06:49):
Yeah. And it's going and it's going
to, we're going to end there. OK, Hopefully, hopefully you
found this beneficial. Hopefully you disagree with Joel
or myself and you can give us comments.
We'd love feedback. Put it down there, yeah.
And it's always good. And I'm sure everybody has a
take on this in some way or other.
Oh, yeah, which is fine. It is a, it is a big topic with

(01:07:09):
lots of little, little things. And there's a lot of room for a
lot of room for disagreement in there.
There's a lot more coming. We're going to talk about
nuclear war even down the road here.
Yeah. So we're going to drop, we're
going to drop a new Kanye. So all right, we are going to
close out. Don't forget to like and
subscribe and tell your friends we will see you next time.