April 1, 2026 • 58 mins
Episode 60: Is War actually Good Part 2?!?!?!? and Why Does the Gospel of John not Mention Simon Carrying the Cross of JesusJoin us as we get continue our series about Is War Good? Also, for Stump the Theologian, We ask Joel why John does not mention Simon carrying the cross of Jesus in his Gospel.www.brainsandbibles.orgwww.thinklikechrist.org
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(00:00):
Everybody, and welcome back to our next episode of Brains,
Bibles and beyond. Yeah, and beyond.
We welcome you all, you budding theologians, to come along with
us as we explore worldview apologetics.
I am Nate Day, and this over here is Joel Willoughby.
And some have said that they listen to our podcast.
Oh, yeah. But we're a little skeptical.
It's out there. It's it's it's on the Internet.
(00:21):
So so thank you for finding us. Hopefully you enjoy this.
We last time started conversation.
Joel ambushed me and then tried to make me defend what he was
supposed to defend about his warmoral.
Oh yeah. Yeah.
But before we get into that, allright, everybody grab your
(00:43):
theological receptacle and let'sget started.
You know, I forgot I had pop in there that was a little
carbonated. Maybe we choked it out.
We have our first segment, whichis Stump the theologian.
(01:06):
So we have two questions today. All right, so first question for
the theologian. OK, who is your favorite gospel
writer and why? No.
So there's four gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke.
(01:28):
And John, there's only one gospel.
But they're 4 writers. And there's the Gospel of Mark,
the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew, Gospel
according to. So that's a tough, that's a
super tough question because. Because each of them kind of
have their own topics. So it kind of goes back to if
someone says, you know, what's your favorite book of the Bible,
My answer is for the same for everybody is the one you've read
(01:51):
or studied the most recently or the most.
And I think that's kind of same thing still with the the four
gospel perspectives there. I really love John and I might
have to just pick that one if I had to pick one.
Maybe that's it's I mean, just John is so simple and complex at
the same time. It's very evangelistic.
(02:13):
I really, I really love just thesimplicity that he has going
through that. But then Matthew has all of the,
you know, more of the Jewish references and things and you
have all that, you know, the, all the discourse and stuff.
The Sermon on the Mount gives them bigger versions of stuff
like that that I really, really,really like.
And then you have, well, you know, Luke, he's the historian
(02:34):
and he, I mean, he writes through the details.
Theophilus guy. And so it's like, you know what
a work it's only it's and that'sonly the first half of it
because acts as the second-half.And so it's like that's a huge,
wonderful work together. So complete, so beautiful.
And then Mark is just so exciting action-packed.
It's all about who is Christ, Who is Christ?
You know if. If I was to pick one, I'd pick
(02:55):
Mark. You'd pick Mark.
Just in general it's the funnestread.
Jesus the superhero, right? Yeah, it's a, it's a quick
action pack. It's.
Just it's just here. Look at all these awesome
things. You just, Yeah.
It's like the closest thing we have to like the comic book
version, you know, it's just like he's the superhero.
But you would say John? If I had to pick one, I I think
(03:16):
I'd, I'd probably have to go forJohn and that is tough, but I
think I think I would. OK, yeah, because OK, I was
troubling. That question, why in there?
OK, so following up with that, oh, John 19 doesn't mention
Simon bearing the cross of Jesuslike the other gospels.
(03:37):
Why is that? Well, you could ask that
question for a million things. You know, not all the gospel
perspectives has the same details.
It's kind of the part of the beauty of it.
I, I, I would just say this, there is a great joy in
harmonizing the gospels to put them all together to see how
(04:01):
they fit beautifully. And then you have more complete
details on certain subjects thatthen that's very rewarding.
And I would encourage you to do it.
However, I would say that more importantly actually, is to take
each gospel perspective in its own writing, understanding that
they wrote exactly what they did, not because they had
(04:23):
amnesia of other events and things, but because they're
actually trying to teach a very certain thing.
Why did you leave them out? You know, for John, he's already
writing a lot. If you think about even just the
work it takes to write such a huge manuscript like that,
there's no backspace and stuff. You're handwriting this thing
and you know, to leave out details like, well, how
(04:46):
important of a detail was that? John just didn't think it was
that important of a detail, especially because he wrote
after everybody else. He basically skipped the whole
thing, just just for everybody who's not familiar exactly with
what John says, basically John 1516 but they cried out away
(05:07):
with him, away with him, crucifyhim, probably said to them,
shall I crucify your king? The chief priest answered, we
have no king. But Caesar then delivered him to
them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led him
away and he bearing his cross went out to a place called the
place of the Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha, where
(05:27):
they crucified him and two others with him, one on either
side and Jesus in the center. This is completely the base.
Skip that whole detail of actually carrying his cross out
there. I mean, they mentioned burying
his cross, but that's that's it.And, you know, it's like, I
think the other, the bigger question would be, why did the
other gospel writers include it?And you'd have to look at the
(05:48):
context and you have to analyze all that with him.
It's just, I don't think that he's, he's missing something for
his purpose. And you know, what did he write?
He wrote these things that you may believe, right?
It's a very evangelistic thing. And I think his, his focus has
just been on Jesus. And he just didn't find that
detail to be necessary to help someone to believe in Jesus.
(06:09):
And so, you know, that's just a simplistic way to look at it,
but it, it could be something else.
But I, I think it's more important to like, why do they,
why do they have what they did have is the better question.
And. We do know that John was one of
the eyewitnesses there, right? Like he was, he was there
watching Jesus be crucified. I guess we don't know if he
followed along with him, but we do know he was there when he's
being crucified because Jesus was talking to him from the
(06:32):
cross and he's. Writing this as an older man
now, he was a young boy when buthe wouldn't forget.
Details of this so he he. Wouldn't well.
Just because he yeah, wasn't relevant to the point he was
making or. Matthew, Mark and Luke were
already in circulation. He had read those works, sure.
And so hey, if it's mentioned all those other times, I.
(06:52):
Mean I mean do. I need to say it too, you know,
I don't know. So the bottom line?
Bottom line is we don't know whyhe omitted Sure, sure.
No. Other than it just wasn't
relevant to the point he was trying to make.
Good, Good question. Good question.
OK. Yep.
All right. So did we stump the theologian?
(07:13):
You'd be the judge. Maybe he doesn't know why he did
not know what John was thinking.That's true.
I'll give you that one so. But yeah, to the point, there
are there are definitely some omissions in some of the Gospels
when you compare them to each other, quite a few, they don't,
they don't change the story obviously.
They just don't give all the details in each of the Gospels,
(07:35):
right. So all right, moving on all.
Right, so so. We are discussing the Is war
good? Yeah, like the morals, the
ethical code of war here, the morality of it.
And so the last time, it's kind of our Part 2 here.
And so last time I just gave these four major views just like
(07:59):
a quick, like a one sentence summary of them.
I'll run through that again justin case a little refresher.
But then what we did last time is we talked about some other
kind of introductory items. And then I, I essentially took
the position of a pacifist and, and Nate didn't see it coming.
He didn't know I was going to dothis and just kind of put him to
trial there like a little, you know, impromptu debates and to
(08:21):
see what would happen. Just kind of flush out that
idea, you know, get people thinking.
And so I'm going to do that again with a different position
for this time around. But the four major views.
Pacifism, basically war is nevergood.
That's the idea. Realism.
War justifies itself. This is the way the world works.
This is the way it has been and how we always will be.
(08:42):
You know that governments are inpursuit of power.
It's just the. Way it is, yeah.
Just yeah. Marry and kill people, yeah.
Holy war, that'd be like, you know, crusades or jihad kind of
stuff. And it's the idea of we're going
to expand our faith system through war.
Convert or die? Yeah.
Yeah, essentially. And that has.
(09:03):
Happened over the years by many different organized religions.
Oh. Yes.
Oh yeah. But I think more so than what
people realize actually. So yeah.
But anyways, then we have like the just war.
And so that would be just the idea that hey, look, there's
legally constituted governments that God put in place and they
(09:24):
have responsibility for all citizens, all faiths to uphold
justice and peace for everyone. And so what's the best way to do
that? Sometimes it's war.
That's the idea. Sure.
All right, so Are you ready? I'm ready.
I'm not going to name the position yet because I just want
us to focus on the information, the information I have, no.
(09:44):
Idea what position you were talking about, so I'm going to
find out here in a minute. OK, here we go.
OK. And now I'm thinking to myself,
I don't want to make it obvious right at the beginning.
So I have, I have some notes here in front of me, but if I
say what I was really going to say at first, it's going to be
obvious, I think right now, OK. All right, make it unobvious.
(10:05):
OK, so God is sovereign. OK, so that basically just means
that he has authority. That's the biggest thing, is
authority. There's other things that come
with that, but there's authority.
Is the biggest thing God, God's.Socrates.
A whole other topic that can be discussed at some point, yeah.
(10:26):
I'm trying to keep it simple right now that so and he's often
seen as working through the governments of the world.
OK, So like there's a there's anelement of freedom.
There's this element where God'sin charge.
OK, so this is a kind of it all works together, but I'm not
(10:46):
wanting to try to explain that right now.
I just want to get to the point here.
So God's sovereign and he's often throughout Scripture scene
working through, you know, actually very like harsh and
morally ambiguous states, if youwill, governments.
There's, there's the emphasis onGod's Providence over messy
(11:09):
power politics. You know, even a Syria is
called, you know, the the hired servant or something like that.
I'm trying to paraphrase here. It was called a servant.
You know, God has raised up nations like Egypt to Syria,
Babylon, Greece, Rome, Persia, you know, you can go on and on
(11:31):
and on raise them up. They accomplished a purpose.
And usually, you know, because they have done sinful things,
they're back down, right. But he, he's, he's working
through that, You know, you know, it's, it's a, it's kind of
an interesting idea. This, this world that we live in
is driven by power and there's always threats to that power.
(11:56):
And so these governments, these states, they, they, they, they
got to use whatever means are necessary to survive and protect
their interests. And so moral rules either really
don't apply or they have to be modified in war because you have
this self preservation that thatis natural.
(12:20):
And really this is you kind of like instinctive, you know, like
like like animals have instincts, you know, And so
obviously God has put us in thisworld where we are.
And it just seems appropriate and natural to me that your face
(12:41):
you can't. Even say all this with a
straight face, can you? Not looking at you and your
face. Oh my goodness.
It just, it just seems national appropriate to me that killing
people. 'S birth part of the game, huh?
Yeah. These these nations are going to
go to war. They have to go to war.
It's not necessarily that you desire war as much as it is a
(13:03):
necessity of just how life in the world works.
There's always war, you know, kill or be killed kind of a
thing, right? What, what, what are your
thoughts on that? I.
Think I mean you're part of yourstatements are true what?
What? What part do you think is true?
I don't even know, I lost track a while ago.
(13:26):
You just start getting a little more and more far fetched.
God's in control. That was true.
God is sovereign. God does.
He works through. God uses nations, raises up
nations. God raises up leaders of
nations. God puts leaders of nations
down. God puts nations down.
(13:46):
God uses 1 nation to punish another nation.
And you see that all the time inthe Bible and through war.
And it's through war, yeah. So really, those are right
things. Yeah, I'm not.
I'm right? Yeah.
God's doing it, but then you went from that to we should be
at war because it's normal. Oh yeah, it's natural.
(14:09):
Just like animals RIP each otherapart.
I mean, even like Daniel 7, right?
The nations are views of these wild beasts.
Yeah, they're just tearing each other apart.
Not. Arguing that.
And I mean it. To not do that really would seem
unnatural to me. No, I I have a discriminate
there. What?
(14:30):
Why, why? Why would you disagree with me?
I just. Yeah, I don't even know.
I just disagree. I mean, you expect the wolf to
go tear up, the sheep do. I expect the wolf to tear up the
sheep and. It makes it makes the wolf
stronger, you know? And and there and there are
wicked people running wicked nations that will go tear up
sheep. That doesn't make it OK.
(14:52):
I mean we all agree in self preservation, self betterment,
it's just it's the same thing with governments really.
That's. And we're really just a, we're a
group of people. We're kind of a unified body of
people that is are getting stronger.
That's not like we're very unified.
Oh, we're doing this fighting wars.
What are you talking about? War has been hey.
(15:14):
You know the best way to unify. Let's go fight a war, yeah?
That's real. Look.
Look at history. No.
No, it it could bring unified people, it could bring nations
together. Oh.
Definitely it could. Bring nations apart?
What? What happened at 911?
Our country came together so well and that's happened with
the world wars that there's there's been lots of wars that
even aren't we have unified and we have become a stronger
(15:36):
people, yeah, especially. Through civil wars?
Definitely you. Find well, you know, that was
like, hey, S, you're not going to become a different nation.
You're going to be our nation. So just just talking about this
is in general, obviously you're taking a position that that
you're taking the one position off and wars is part of life and
(15:57):
this is good. This is do it realism, the
realism view, OK, It's just realthere.
So there. This is bring back to reality,
though. There are different reasons for
things, right? There are different motives.
Some motives are good, some motives are bad.
Sometimes God uses bad people's bad motives for his purposes.
(16:20):
Because he's still sovereign, right?
Yeah, and you may think that you're doing it, but really,
God's doing the whole thing, right?
So if if we're not even really doing it, but that.
Doesn't make what your decision is good.
You know, like if you if you're a bad person making bad
decisions and having bad reasonsfor those decisions, that
doesn't make it OK. Whether?
(16:43):
You do it at a national level oran individual level.
Just like I can't go down the street and just say I want your
house and take it. This is an unjustified war.
Let's put it that way. And they're they're some things
are just not right. And then also how you conduct
yourself. Sometimes it's just not right.
(17:04):
That doesn't mean in that, that there aren't certain cases where
war is justified and war is necessary, or even in defense of
your own homeland or so. Obviously if you're attacked,
you should go to war and defend your country.
But how is it that we have all these conveniences in America?
(17:24):
The wealth has been built off ofwar.
Same thing with all the powerhouses like the England
things that say. The wealth is built off of the
war. Oh man, we got wealthy off some
war. We're in a lot of debt in
America. If you have yes.
Well, everybody's in debt, trillion.
In debt right now, I don't know if we call it wealthy, you tell.
Other countries that America's not wealthy, you tell.
I do all the time and. They don't believe me but.
(17:48):
You talk to other nations about this, what happens?
What? What every every every American
if if every American paid off their portion of the debt is
what, a hundred 100,000 or something like that?
Oh, it's probably more than that.
It's crazy. It's people live in America now.
No more than five 7 million. What?
What? What do you say 3?
(18:09):
103 hundred and some million, right?
Yeah. It's getting up to, it's getting
up to 400. Million How many people live in
America? I'm going to say right now
you're looking at just about 400million.
It's going to be a little less still, I think, but about 400
million. That's my guess, yeah.
This chaotic world, every government really this is self
(18:29):
interested 3. 141 Actor .96 million.
By the way, that would be 400 million if we'd stop killing our
babies. All right.
And then, but when, when was that data?
That's just. 2024. Say old we, we're growing like
crazy. OK?
Hey, look, here's the deal, OK? So it's based on the based on
the, the last number we have, which was last year 342.
(18:53):
So we we owe 3738 trillion. I think we're in our debt now.
We're probably. Like 37 million. 30 I.
Can't even. I think we're, I think we're
losing focus here, yeah. I just no keep going.
OK, well, but you're not paying attention.
I'm. Paying attention.
Get back to me. All right, listen, listen to
(19:14):
this SO. Divided by you got.
See, you're not 340. 2. You can't stop him, audience.
You can't stop this guy. He's a runaway train.
I'm in one rite. Oh, were you still talking?
Oh. My goodness, I can't do that.
Yeah, so every person in Americaowes $111,000.
(19:41):
That's less. Than I thought if all.
Of us paid that we could pay offour national debt.
That includes, like, just born people.
Yeah. It's everyone, yeah.
If I did the math. So someone will probably check
that. All right, OK, but tomorrow.
That would be higher because ourdebt case is going up.
So every government here has to govern.
Unbelievers and is, is, you know, mostly is unbelieving
(20:04):
people and things. And really, you know, you have
like the idea of making disciples, the church, the
church work really that's separate from the secular
governments. And so how do secular
governments operate? Well, I mean, you can kind of
say, well, I wish they would do this or what the reality of it
all is. They're they are just interested
(20:26):
in their own selves. No matter what, you want your
country to succeed more than anyone else's as a government
especially. And and so how do you do that?
A lot of times it's war. I mean, you think about any, any
great country, they are great because they have won wars.
No, that that's true, yeah. Absolutely, which is what
(20:49):
provides for their people. That's that's how they, you
know, America, we, we, we have agreat life because we've won
wars. We we got the power, you know,
which which gives us a lot of leverage in this world and even
the other, you know, powers of the Earth.
That's kind of how it works, youknow?
Yeah, you. Know we we started off by
(21:11):
beating, you know us in England winning the French and Indian
War, which gave England control of half the United States.
Then we beat England in our Revolutionary War 'cause they
would not King George would not accept our demands, right?
Which then gave us half the United States.
They can't. Even imagine the taxes we have
today, but you know, yeah, they.Would.
(21:33):
Lose their minds. There'd be so much tea in the
ocean. What 2?
Percent tax and so much tea, like a couple things and we're
like, yeah, that's. Kind of what gave rise to Coffee
Does Everything. Better, right.
Yeah. Well, but yeah, you know.
Yeah. But we started off you know
with, with war and. And then justified wars, you
(21:55):
know, in in their sense. And and, you know, we want our
freedom because we've been unfairly treated.
And there you go. So, yeah, to your point, yeah,
nations, nations look out for their best interests, and war is
one of the ways to do that. That doesn't always mean it's
(22:19):
morally justified. Sometimes.
Sometimes your best interests inyour opinion as a necessary
morally justified. Well, like you said, you said,
you know, because you agree thatGod is sovereign in all of this.
You say God's doing it. Yeah.
Romans 13, right. For there is no authority except
(22:41):
from God. And those that exist have been
instituted by God. And this is, this is the way
God's moving the world. And so really, it should be
encouraged. It should be encouraged.
It seems to be I don't. Feel like it should necessarily
be encouraged. You wouldn't want to encourage
(23:03):
God's work, I mean. The whole Bible talks about
peace, right And. Not the whole Bible.
There's, there's times of no, definitely not peace, but the,
the end, the end result, right? What we're trying to achieve,
and man has been trying to achieve this without God, you
know, bring on our own utopia, sometimes through war, because
(23:24):
if we can conquer everybody else, then we can be in charge
and have peace. And ultimately, we're going to
have peace right with God. So what?
What should not be encouraged with war?
Which should not be encouraged. In.
General I mean, I, I don't understand what, what's the
question so. I said it should be encouraged
(23:46):
the the war. Should be encouraged.
Yeah, you know, go, go to war. Yeah, be.
Surprised I. Think I think praying for peace
is good I mean I. Want the best for my citizens?
Let's be supreme. Let's conquer.
Yeah, well, part of me likes that.
Firmly. Like I love a good game of Risk,
right? Part of me is like, yeah, let's
(24:08):
do it. But then.
But then. But then the part of me who
lives in this world is like, no,I don't really want to go to
war. Like, I like peace, you know?
I like the best way to have peace.
I like. The good old days of the Cold
War where you woke up every morning knowing you hated
Russia, but neither one of you shot nukes at each other, right?
Because that was just going to be bad, you know?
(24:30):
And then the Soviet Union fell and now you know, everyone's our
enemy again. Used to just have one, but you
you probably remember those days.
The the days of the Cold War, you know.
Oh yes. But ultimately, you, you had
peace, right? And peace is good.
Yeah, so really, we we'd go to war.
(24:51):
This is good. It's just been happening.
Everyone in. Here, you're on top.
You have peace. Zephyr, are you really ever in
top I? Mean when?
When did Israel have their greatest dominance, their
greatest, the greatest peace they ever had?
When? They were serving God.
When when King Solomon ruled after King David was a bloody
(25:13):
bloody man of war and conquer broke the backbone of the the
Canaanites but then. But then Solomon kind of started
falling away from God. And then and then this began the
next generation, the Kingdom split in half and the golden
civil war. And you know what?
He stopped doing going to war they.
Were they were at greatest peacewhen they were most closely
(25:34):
following God? When they.
Had conquered everybody, yeah. And, and then they started
slipping away and they started doing the marriages, all
diplomacy. Part of part of part of part of
following God was he was giving you victory over your enemies.
Yes. Well.
So the idea is though, so then if I'm having victory over my
(25:54):
enemies, I know I'm favored by God, so that's good.
So that goes back to my point then.
Not necessarily because God alsouses some nations to punish
other nations, whether they're maybe maybe.
My nation's the one that's goingto be dealing out some
punishment. It could be.
It very well could be and. That would give us peace and
prosperity. Possibly.
(26:14):
Would it? Not yeah, it would.
Absolutely would. It could.
That doesn't. So you're actually.
That doesn't necessarily make itright though.
You actually. Agree with me here.
No are. You are you taking this view?
You know what I'm saying is justbecause something can happen
doesn't make it the right view. Just.
Because something can happen. Yeah.
But I'm, I'm, I'm seeing a pattern in scripture where I
(26:36):
think this is the way it's supposed to be.
I mean the the Canaanite, the Canaanite slaughter, the the
Israel comes in and wipes out everyone can killer a man,
woman, child, animal and. God commanded it.
Yeah, exactly. God.
Gave ultimate kill order and it.Was the best thing it?
Was the best. Thing right?
No. The best thing would have been
for the Canaanites to all repentof their sins and turn to God,
(26:58):
and he would not have to punish them well.
And what got their attention forrepentance?
Because some did. It was the war.
Yeah, because they war's. Good look at you.
I think. I'm making too much sense here
it. Has, am I right, a place in this
(27:20):
world That doesn't necessarily make it good.
It can be used for God's purposes.
That doesn't necessarily make itultimately good.
Well, I hear you saying that, but all I all I see is that
every time there's war, God commands or is in is in control
(27:41):
of all these different warring nations and only good has ever
come out of it. Only good has ever come out of
it, right? Right.
I mean, I wouldn't say that. Tell that to the losing side.
Well. That's why we all have to be
geared up for war, you know, because there is going to be
war. It's the reality of it.
There's always going to be war and you better be ready.
(28:03):
And really, you need to be proactive because it's going to
happen I. I agree with that I.
Mean you should be ready, but there's some kind of thing out
there where it, like, it tells you like, in how many centuries
there's been like, certain, likea few minutes of World Peace,
like where there's literally no country at war with each other.
Yeah. That it's.
Like a few minutes in centuries,yeah.
Like, yeah, it's. Insane.
(28:24):
No The fact. That war happens all the time
and you should be ready, especially as a nation, to
defend yourself. Those are those are true
statements. That doesn't mean it's it's good
and and that you wish to seek itout.
I think the governments are polled by God to actually go to
war, and that's how a lot of things are resolved.
(28:45):
I mean, Daniel 10, you have Daniel 10.
And so I'm jump in the middle ofsomething here, but you'll
you'll see the point. So let's say I start at verse 18
again. One having the appearance of a
man touched me and strengthened me.
This is Gabriel by the way. And he said, oh man greatly
loved. This is Daniel.
He's talking to fear, not peace.Be with you, be strong and a
good courage. And as you spoke to me, I was
(29:06):
strengthened and said, let my Lord speak for you have
strengthened me. Then he said, do you know why
I've come to you? But now I will return to fight
against the Prince of Persia. And when I go out, behold, the
Prince of Greece will come, and I will tell you what is
described in the Book of Truth. There is none who contends by my
side except these, except Michael, your Prince, like of
Israel. So the idea is that you have
(29:27):
these different, you know, angels.
In the case of Michael, it's an Archangel, and, you know,
they're representing these nations and they're all at war
and they're fighting. And so it is the natural course.
This is what's supposed to happen.
This is the intended use here. We even have a spiritual beings
that are leading these things todeny such a thing as denying
(29:48):
God's plan. Wait, do you disagree?
You know, I don't necessarily disagree.
It makes too much sense to you. I don't I.
Don't. I definitely don't agree, no.
So you can you can say truthful statements that doesn't make
(30:11):
that doesn't make the overall point correct.
War is inevitable. Survival, deterrence and
national interest justify harsh actions.
If we don't do this to them, they will do worse to us.
I want to protect my family, my friends, my loved ones, my
fellow countrymen. The best way to do that is to
(30:33):
proactively go to war and conquer the other nations.
If you're playing a game of Risk, it is.
In real life, Nah. I think that a lot of people are
just living in this naive optimism that you know, we're
going to be fine. It's OK.
I agree with that, but we do we and nations bear the sword
(30:54):
there. Is a place for proactive,
proactive action and there is a place for defending your nation
and there is a place for war. Those things are true.
And it's also true that God is in control and raises up nations
and takes down nations. Those things are true if you if
that doesn't ultimately mean that war is good and should
(31:15):
happen right. Just because God uses something,
something doesn't mean that thatis the ultimate goal that we're
trying to achieve, right? God used to God, but God.
'S good and God's doing it, and it must be good, yeah.
Yeah, God, my brains hurting now.
(31:41):
I don't even know what to say. This is stupid.
It's not stupid. It's not stupid.
The the idea is like all I'm doing is I'm emphasizing
prudence, strategy, deterrence, kill.
That dude in the street, you know, because I have been to God
man, and for good I'll. Tell you what it.
Could be, but probably, you know, I'd still just murder
(32:02):
somebody like. If you know, if you know that
there's a nation that is a good chance that they're going to go
to war with you, you should strategize.
And I also. Think I should just sin and sin
and sin and sin because the grace of God will abound and
that's a good. Thing.
But see, I don't it's not sin, though.
It's not sin, you know, you're just you're, you're going out
(32:23):
there and doing what God's intended you to do as a nation.
Why? You do.
It matters. And it's, of course, it's a
nation we're not talking to individual level.
I'm still saying why you do it matters.
Romans 13 he's. Getting Sweders in charge and
they have to answer to God for their actions but.
They are giving a sword to do what's right and there's a lot
of evil nations out there. We should.
(32:44):
We should conquer them. There you go, part.
Of me agree. Like you look at you.
And so audience want. To remind you that I am taking
up a position here that I don't necessarily personally hold,
but, and Nate is surprised by all of my information and
things, and so you got to give him a break a little bit here,
(33:07):
but you've heard how much he's agreed with me.
Well, you're just saying a bunchof facts and true statements.
Exactly. Obviously I agree with with
facts and true statements, but that doesn't mean that we should
go to war just. Cause it's true and right.
Yeah. Wow.
(33:29):
OK, Well, I think I actually convinced you here 'cause.
You. Just read.
It's true and right. Yeah.
Wow. So, you know, really it's not a
matter of, you know, it's not the same sort of morality that
there's an individual level governments guys giving them the
sword. Like Romans 13 says Romans 7,
he's intended these wild beasts.Daniel 10, you have the, you
(33:49):
know, the Greece, Persia, Israel, all this and it's being
spiritually led by these celestial beings.
It's it's the way it ought to be.
And you know, God has raised up nations for war to accomplish
his purposes. And so look, look at even, you
know, America right now, big powerful nation, you think God
(34:09):
has done that? You know, we can only give God
credit for that. And so for what purpose?
Well, to conquer. To conquer, it goes from like,
is this war to conquer? Yeah.
Well, what's the point of war unless it's to win?
I I I don't know if you're. Fighting a war.
Not to fight the war anymore, I.Think that there's some big
(34:30):
problems out there when people are trying to fight wars and not
having a goal to win. I I agree with.
That that's a, that's a, that's a doesn't make any sense.
They because they, because God has designed us to conquer and
to win, to dominate. We're just to dominate the
earth. That's the original creation
mandate. They have dominion over the
animals. Well, the whole Earth.
(34:52):
The whole earth, yeah. No, that's true.
And then we fell. Nimrod was a mighty hunter
before the Lord. He's the one that raised up all
the greatest nations. Yeah, Nimrod's.
Not really known as being a goodguy.
But he did what he was intended to do.
All right, so there's a verse inmath Matthew, Matthew 59.
(35:12):
Blessed are the peacemakers, forthey should be called sons of
God. Oh, the.
Individuals. Yeah.
Yeah, not institutions. He's sevens.
Yep. Show me where it says a nation
shouldn't go to war. You tell me that it's because
it's so natural we're supposed to do it.
(35:34):
OK, but nations are made-up of individuals?
This world is broken, it's dangerous, it's ruled by power.
This is just just a a part of the whole chess set here.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that I mean really, that's the whole, that's the whole
argument. And you know, Romans 13, the
sword and state go together, God's sovereign over it all.
(35:56):
This is what he is intended for us, we, it is in us to dominate.
It is in us to take over, conquer, to become greater.
That's who we are. In our fallen state.
Did not God design us to dominate, to control, manage the
earth? Yeah, yeah, Hebrews.
(36:18):
Hebrews 12/14 says pursue peace with all people.
Individual level, yeah. It is, but once again, nations
are made-up of individuals. So you have like Psalm 2, Psalm
2 would be nations. So, you know, why do the nations
rage and the people's plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take
counsel together against the Lord and against his anointed,
(36:40):
saying, well, there's the mistake, Yeah, the anointed is
they're trying to war against God.
Yeah. And.
We found how that ends. We.
Don't war against God, but the nations war against other
nations. That's.
Well, the nations are trying to war against God.
And you even see that you know, how does Jesus the ultimate
example with the ultimate Kingdom he.
Kicks her butt, He. He uses war, yeah, and he
(37:02):
conquers everybody. I agree.
He does, wipes him out. I just.
Want to be like my savior? Turn the other cheek.
Well, that's for an insult. On the individual level, we had
this. We're talking about the
institution. This is having foresight wisdom.
OK, OK. Yeah, We want to sit in the
(37:24):
sidelines and just get destroyedby everybody else.
That's not good for our citizens.
I agree. I want, if I'm, if I am a
government, I want the best for my citizens, The the prosperity,
the everything. I, I And if you're not
continually making progress, you're falling behind.
Yeah. I I agree.
So then. You have to conquer other
nations. Or you could just work hard and
(37:45):
and build a good economy and and.
And have a nice have. A nice military set off the
side. Everybody's afraid to attack
you. Speak softly and carry a big
stick have. Have have lots of guns in your
hands of the citizens so that no, we're attacking, yeah.
They have them ready, Yeah, you see.
These stats like like I think just the deer hunters of
(38:05):
Wisconsin would be the 8th largest army in the world or
something like that. I can't believe that you know,
and. Then yeah, cool bears should get
our taxes even more. Yeah.
And so you could just be a country like that.
And guess what? Fairly safe.
You don't have to conquer, you can just be prosperous.
(38:26):
But ultimately, whether. You get soft without war, you
get. Soft you do.
You do get soft, Yeah. Then then you have all those
little artifacts. And when you get soft and
comfortable, you pull away from God, and then God has to punish
you by bringing another nation to attack you so.
You have to continually be conquering through war as a
nation. You know it's inevitable.
It's going to happen. I.
(38:47):
Feel like but. Does that make it you're a
realist? No.
What I'm saying is just because it happens, so it doesn't make
it right. And that's the question.
Yeah. It's.
Right. But you haven't proven morally
that it's right. Just because something happens
is right because. God has designed it this way
over. Here he sins every day.
Does that make it right? He's.
Also fought in the Seven Wars. At least can you name them all
(39:12):
though? Well, you know.
You can, I don't. Want to?
I don't want to expose who this person is.
He likes to be anonymous. That's true.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's like someone's
been in seven wars. That's kind of.
So we're still back. There's a point just.
Because something is inevitable.And just because something
happens, Yeah, doesn't make it morally right.
(39:33):
Yeah, and also doesn't make it just.
Because you're right, just because that doesn't.
Make it that the object of what we should desire to do.
So Yes, wars happen. Yes God is in control.
Yes, they are inevitable. They're going to happen.
Is that Is that what we should aspire to do though?
So like with Daniel. 2 And it does not prove that we should.
(39:55):
Now there are cases, especially in the Bible, God like commands
this. You go do this.
So there are righteously justified wars.
Yep. Not all wars are righteously
justified. And just because they're going
to inevitably happen doesn't prove that they're good and
moral and should happen. What?
War is not good. No, no, wars are good people,
(40:19):
you know, they cause lots of pain and suffering, so.
God commands wars that are not good.
Is that what you're telling me? You said no wars.
Yeah, no. War is good.
That's your statement all. Right, I have to be careful in
how I say this. OK, I'll let you rephrase.
All right. No, in in God's sovereignty He
(40:41):
uses He uses things for his glory and purposes.
That doesn't mean that for the people going through this is a
great experience. Well.
No, no, war hurts there. Hurts there's.
Death. There's pain, there's suffering
for sure. Those things are all bad and
they've been brought on by the fall.
You know, there's a lot, there'sa lot of results in the fall
(41:03):
which are bad. Yep.
Exactly and. Just because God can make good
of it and use them for his purposes doesn't necessarily
make those individual things good.
That the end result is in God's plan and therefore is good.
But the death, suffering, and destruction isn't good, It's
(41:25):
just part of God's plan. I don't know if that makes sense
or not. Well.
I mean, I think I agree that realistically, if there was no
sin ever, then there would neverbe war.
Yeah, that would be that. Would be.
That would be fantastic, but. The earth is broken.
It is broken, and sin has happened.
Yeah. Realistically, yeah.
We all go to war. Yeah, and that's the natural
(41:45):
course that God's set forth in the curse.
And and I can't argue any of those points.
So there's nothing wrong with war.
But then that's when you just admitted that it's not good.
The sin's not good. It's like the original sin.
It's the result of sin. And therefore, why should we do
it well? It's it's like this, you know,
(42:05):
but there. Are there are times when it's
justified and right and commanded by God, but not every
time? So it's like, it's like pain and
childbirth for a human being wasmultiplied as part of the curse.
OK. So when, you know, my wife has
(42:27):
given birth and she's been in incredible pain in that process.
I I only know it from a distance, but I hear that it
felt good. Yeah.
Yeah. It's not that I'm saying that.
Oh, that's evil, That she's experiencing pain?
No, it's just a natural part of the curse, just like war.
But it's not good. It's not, but it's not evil
(42:49):
either. See, it's not really a moral
element here. It's just what's going to
happen. It's natural.
Experiencing pain is not on the same scope as it's our.
Moral. Experience and pain is right
just at war, but death and destruction is different because
(43:11):
you're actively doing things to other people and property.
OK, but God has commanded war, whether it's death, absolutely.
So then so it's it's OK. In some cases it's it's
commanded by God, right? OK, Yeah.
Well, so then we find out that just.
Because it is right and good in some cases doesn't make every
case right and good God. 'S been behind the scenes with
(43:34):
every single war, yeah. And he uses them for SO.
Then it's all good and. He uses them for his purposes.
Right. So then we shouldn't, we
shouldn't try to stop it. We should actually encourage it.
No, see, so that's where you're,you're logically making a jump
that that doesn't belong. I I think it does because you
(43:55):
think about like Daniel 2, Daniel 7, where God predicts
these succeeding kingdoms. How do they succeed each other?
It's war, absolutely. And this is his intended
purposes and plans. He's arranging all these things
there's. Only four kingdoms.
Well, because it only it would. No, there's more than that.
Well, if you count the Medes andPersians as as two, well, you.
(44:15):
Had you had if you count. Greece split it into the four,
but no, there was the Babylonians, there was the Mede
Persians, there was the Greeks, and they're the Romans.
And it stopped. Then the Kingdom of the
Antichrist. Which comes out of the Roman
Empire. It's, well, that's the that's
the iron mix with play. We're still in the Roman Empire
right now. Well.
That's because that's just the ironically, we're.
(44:36):
Still in the Roman Empire. So we we should be at peace
worldwide because Rome took overand there shouldn't be any war
then. Well, we're talking about if
you're using. Daniel as an example.
War is done. Well, no, I think.
I think it's still Rome took. Over.
No, there was the last one I. Do have thoughts on that I?
Know it, but I don't know the. Podcast.
But yeah, I don't want to. Yeah, exactly.
So I have to pause on that because I don't I, I I don't
(44:58):
want to go there. We're not.
I do believe. That that we're still in the
holy the Roman Empire. Essentially, that is the world
power of today. Yeah, the.
World powers of today, especially the Western world,
definitely came out of that. Well, like, OK, we'll pause
because there are other powers. In the world besides the Roman
Empire at the moment, well. Just like with with Babylon
rule, there's other powers in the world too, but they were the
(45:20):
one that was the main focus of God.
Yeah. And so specifically.
In that area that the bell was written in, that affected the
people in the Bible so. You know, with all these things
that are going on, what was in the hearts of every one of those
kingdoms that made them want to go to war and do those things?
It was that natural instinct of we need to become great.
(45:42):
We need to have prosperity for our citizens.
And peace for our citizens, our natural instinct as human beings
is to sin. But this is the way so.
Part of the our natural instinctis not what we're supposed to
do. We're looking at a whole
government. We're.
Yeah, and, and everybody in thatgovernment should change and be
conformed to the image of Christ, so.
What if? What if everybody?
(46:04):
Did that there would be no more need for war.
OK, but if they did that then God's prophecies wouldn't come
true. It would be a bad thing then, if
everyone trusted in God and decided not to be a bad.
Thing if everybody repented and acted like Christ.
Well, no, I. I disagree with that.
That would not be a bad, that would be a good thing.
(46:25):
If everybody repented and turnedto Christ, then how to?
Explain this. We know they're.
Not going to, but it would stillbe good.
Jesus once again prophesied his death, and Peter goes, no, I'm
not gonna let it happen. Yeah, he.
Said get behind me, Satan, right?
Yeah, because. Because it was God's plan.
Yeah. Jesus had to die for my sins,
You're correct. So here's the idea.
(46:46):
It's God's plan for there to be war among nations.
Yeah, so. So it may seem pretty to say no
more war, like some hippie or something, but the idea is that
we actually should be encouraging it.
This is God's plan for the nations for the time being, to
conquer, to become great. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
This is a good thing over the world.
(47:09):
I think I'm making too much sense to you.
I think this is going on. Here you just keep saying the
same point over and over again, because it, because it's and
it's still it's. You're still just you.
Say it's logical, you say it's right.
You're. Making this logical jump from
just because it is to, it shouldbe, Yeah.
And well, there's no proof. There's no proof for the should
be part. I keep asking for the proof of
(47:29):
the should be part and you keep saying the same thing.
Well, it's always been. That's not proof that it should
always be well. Not always.
Jesus will be the final conqueror.
He will be. Yeah, that's how it ends.
And he will do it with. Style.
And, and you know, he does and Ican't.
Wait when? He conquers all the nations to
be there. To watch it.
When he conquers all the nations, he will give prosperity
and peace to all citizens. This is what we're all doing.
(47:52):
Every one of us. Look, look.
Jeremiah 79, right? And so the heart is deceitful
above all things. Desperately sick.
Who could understand it? I can't.
Disagree. It's all it's all a bunch of
sinners. This is just reality of this is
what happens. This is natural course.
This is. Where a lot of a lot of your
wars that take place or are sinful because there are nations
who have tried to bring on this utopia of God without God and
(48:16):
that's wrong. You can't bring the Kingdom of
God without God. So.
So here's the idea I'm more on the side of it all being a
moral. It's just the idea that if God
has designed it this way, these nations conquer these nations.
(48:37):
Well, God is good. Everything does is good.
So then that part of it I'm saying that's good then.
But mostly when I look at like all of time, all of nations, I'm
just saying it's an A moral thing.
And they, they, they will alwaysbe fighting.
And so I'm not going to try to stop that because that's the
design that's there ultimately. OK, you don't have to stop it.
(48:58):
Yeah, go. For it in in fact, I then just
you're going to be a part of it because all the nations are
doing it. So you might as well help your
nation be the best. You might as well.
Why not? I agree.
It's all it's all. So yeah, we, we, we should just,
you know, whatever nation you'rein, you should strive with your
fellow countrymen. To have.
(49:18):
Your Yeah, the, the, the high, you know, Yeah, the the most
powerful nation because that's going to have because the bigger
nation you are, the more powerful you are, the more
prosperity and peace there is for the most citizens.
Yeah, can't argue with that. There you go.
Can't argue with that. That's.
The whole thing in a nutshell for me, can't.
Argue with it as. Taking this position, I.
(49:39):
Can't. I can't argue with it.
It's true. You're you're a realist.
You're a realist. You don't know it.
You're a realist. I'm most definitely not a
realist, but, well, you just keep sending the same thing over
again, so we'll see. Yeah, I.
Agree. Wait till so so here's here's
what I'm gonna say now. OK, we talked about pacifism
last episode. This is opposite of that.
(50:00):
And then? This is this is the realism,
yeah. Yeah, very much.
We shouldn't kill people. Realism is to kill everyone.
Not no, no, Conquer everyone. You don't have to necessarily.
Kill them. We need their tribute.
You conquer. Them there there is a difference
there is a difference I I agree yeah.
And so then like there's there'sholy war, which I didn't bother,
(50:23):
you know, done the holy War One it's you know that's Islam's
jihad. There was a Catholic crusades
and then that's the most, it's the most popular holy war.
Yeah, those are two most popularones all.
Sorts of of organized religions around history.
So you can, you can, but you canunderstand just because those
are popular reference points. Yeah.
So you can get get the idea. So I, you know, and I think it's
(50:44):
pretty easy to kind of get past those.
It's just obviously God does notwant us to.
You'll have the same. Argument that you just did on
this one. God wants us to conquer the
world well. What I think what it would be
is. That it's his will that we take
over it would. Be make disciples at all costs,
and you'd have to be convinced that you can make disciples
through violence I. Think the easiest argument
(51:05):
against that is, you know, when,when Peter chops the ear off and
Jesus puts it back on and put your sword away, let's sort die
by the sword. This is not how Jesus's plan to,
to, to convert people. You know, then we looked at the,
you know, the passage in, in Romans 12 in our last episode.
And it's like here, this is how you should live as a Christian,
you know, be peaceful, right, right.
(51:28):
That's how we should live because then you're like, wow,
that's our individuals. Hey now calm down A.
Nation is made-up of individualsnow that, but then once again
with that, that doesn't mean warshould never be happen or be
justified because there are cases where it can be Jesus.
Even told you if you don't have a sword you go buy one in Luke
(51:49):
2236. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you.
Don't have a sword, he. Didn't say that he used to sell
your. Cloak and get 1, he better get
one. Why?
Did he say that all right? You, you forced me to it.
Let me let's get to the context.What's the context?
All right, sometimes it's more fun just to, you know, throw
things out there. But no, that's, I mean, that's
(52:11):
the scripture. But OK, Luke, Luke 2235 says,
and he said to them. So then before that, you know,
in, in Luke's compiling here, Jesus just prophesized Peter's
denial of Christ. And he's, he's talking about,
you know, he's going on about, you know, basically the new
(52:33):
covenants and what's going to behappening.
He already had the Lord's Supper, you know, that sort of
thing. And so he's going to these
final, final deals. And so they're looking toward
toward the future. And so you think about all like
basically everything that's in the Gospels has, has essentially
happened, you know, most for themost part, OK, we're in the
final week. All right, last few days.
(52:55):
And so then he says in verse 35 and he said to them of Luke 22,
when I sent you out with no money bag or knapsack or
sandals, did you lack anything? They said nothing.
So that was the one that like the, you know, like the 70
disciples and stuff and OK. Go and do the witness and
that's. A whole other thing.
But all right, so then verse 36 he said to them, but now this is
different, you know, moving forward, he's about to go to the
(53:16):
cross, death, burial, resurrection.
The whole gospel is about to happen here, he said to them,
but now let the one who has a money bag take it, and likewise
A knapsack. So the guy's working a little
differently now, OK, He's doing things differently.
And let the one who has no swords sell his cloak and buy
one. For I tell you that this
scripture must be fulfilled in me.
And he was numbered with the transgressors.
(53:38):
That's the scripture. So in other words, the
crucifixion is the idea for whatis written about me has its
fulfillment. And they said, look, Lord, here
are two swords. And he said to them is enough 2
views on that one. Either he's saying that it's
enough to have two swords among 12 people and it's a
mathematical equation of, you know, how to defend yourself.
(53:59):
Or my view, which is actually the minority view, is that he is
frustrated with them because allthese final things are
happening. He's just said he's about to go
to the cross, he's going to be crucified.
He's talking about how they're going to go out and make
disciples of all nations and what are they fixated on?
Killing. People how how many weapons do?
(54:21):
We need to have. It's like defines.
You we got to, we got. So it's.
That's enough. That's how we would say it
today. That's enough.
It's just kind of shutting down the conversation there, changing
it. And that's when Jesus goes off
and praise the Mount of Olives. So like showing like you, you
think that physical sword is your ultimate weapon.
(54:42):
So prayer is your ultimate weapon back.
To my question, why didn't he tell them to go buy the swords?
I, I think there is legitimacy. So this is, this is actually
really Joel Willoughby. Now I'm not doing my fake
position anymore. OK.
So I, I, there is definitely legitimacy in defending
yourself, defending your loved ones, defending your, your, you
know, community kind of a thing.And in, in a righteous way.
(55:05):
So like, you know, the bullies come and it's not just some
little insult or something. They're actually threatening
harm. And so you need to protect
yourself, especially out there. They're going to be making
disciples. They're going to go through all
sorts of dangerous terrain. And just to get an idea of that,
just look at Paul's list of his hardships because he did lots of
travelling and all sorts of, youknow, thieves and all these
other things, you know, everywhere.
(55:26):
And so, yeah, you should be ableto defend yourself so you can do
more for God's Kingdom. Essentially, the idea did Paul.
Ever defend himself? Well, at times he did things
like sometimes he took a beatingwhen he didn't have to.
And I think that was to model how it ought to be done.
And there's other times he goes,are you about to strike a Roman
citizen? So there was times he knew how
(55:48):
to stand up for himself. There was times he, he, you
know, talked back, so to speak, you know, kind of put people in
their places and things. But you, you don't really have a
record of him being physical without the sword.
But but it's, it's one of the thing.
He, he was the apostle. I mean, there was there was
miracles and stuff and there wasjust, it was different.
Like that was the whole point ofwhy it's different now with the,
(56:10):
with the 70 going out, they weredoing miracles so they didn't
have to have the sword and things.
But then, OK, you're not actively doing miracles on
command. Yeah, OK, Get a sword.
You know, God gave us a lot of tools, and we don't want to
dismiss the power of prayer and trusting in God.
But God did design us in such a way and made us aware that we
(56:33):
have wolves around us and we arejust sheep.
And so, hey, you, you need to have a tool in your hand to help
against these wolves in that real physical sense there.
Because, you know, we do have a spiritual warfare that is
definitely primary for us, but we also are aware of the world
that we're in. And there is people that want to
(56:53):
physically harm you. And God says, hey, you have, you
know, this is my paraphrase. Hey, you got a responsibility,
you know, especially as me, as aman I'm, I'm married, I have
kids, husband, father, you know,I, I have to protect them the
best of my ability with the circumstances of men, you know,
everything like that. So anyways, yeah, that's, that's
that's a fun passage. It's really interesting.
(57:14):
I think there's a lot of application that could take from
those few verses there in Luke 22.
You know, I hope we're learning things.
You know, once again, the big thing here is I'm introducing a
lot of ideas to help us think through it.
Like what is actually most scriptural?
What does God want us to do? Is it the pacifist position?
Is it the real estate position? I don't think really anyone here
(57:37):
in America is going for the holywar position.
Like that's not really a, you know, as far as Christians go
today, that's not really what anyone's pushing.
But then there's the just war. And So what I want to do is
present those ideas next in thisseries.
And so that is, you know, now I've gone this far, just war.
If it's not obvious by now, that's my position.
(57:58):
And it's, you know, goes back toAugustine and things, you know,
way back. He's when I kind of introduced
the ideas, at least on record. On record he did.
So OK, But I'll, I'll wrap it upthere with that one because
otherwise we're going to open upanother can of worms.
All right. We like cans of worms.
Yum Yum. All.
Right. Well guys, that's it for today.
Hopefully gave you something to think about.
(58:19):
And once again, if you went to send Joel some hate mail, send
it our way. And yeah, we will see you guys
next time. All right, don't forget to like
and. Subscribe.
You know what to do. And hit that little bell.
Everybody, and welcome back to our next episode of Brains,
Bibles and beyond. Yeah, and beyond.
We welcome you all, you budding theologians, to come along with
us as we explore worldview apologetics.
I am Nate Day, and this over here is Joel Willoughby.
And some have said that they listen to our podcast.
Oh, yeah. But we're a little skeptical.
It's out there. It's it's it's on the Internet.
(00:21):
So so thank you for finding us. Hopefully you enjoy this.
We last time started conversation.
Joel ambushed me and then tried to make me defend what he was
supposed to defend about his warmoral.
Oh yeah. Yeah.
But before we get into that, allright, everybody grab your
(00:43):
theological receptacle and let'sget started.
You know, I forgot I had pop in there that was a little
carbonated. Maybe we choked it out.
We have our first segment, whichis Stump the theologian.
(01:06):
So we have two questions today. All right, so first question for
the theologian. OK, who is your favorite gospel
writer and why? No.
So there's four gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke.
(01:28):
And John, there's only one gospel.
But they're 4 writers. And there's the Gospel of Mark,
the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew, Gospel
according to. So that's a tough, that's a
super tough question because. Because each of them kind of
have their own topics. So it kind of goes back to if
someone says, you know, what's your favorite book of the Bible,
My answer is for the same for everybody is the one you've read
(01:51):
or studied the most recently or the most.
And I think that's kind of same thing still with the the four
gospel perspectives there. I really love John and I might
have to just pick that one if I had to pick one.
Maybe that's it's I mean, just John is so simple and complex at
the same time. It's very evangelistic.
(02:13):
I really, I really love just thesimplicity that he has going
through that. But then Matthew has all of the,
you know, more of the Jewish references and things and you
have all that, you know, the, all the discourse and stuff.
The Sermon on the Mount gives them bigger versions of stuff
like that that I really, really,really like.
And then you have, well, you know, Luke, he's the historian
(02:34):
and he, I mean, he writes through the details.
Theophilus guy. And so it's like, you know what
a work it's only it's and that'sonly the first half of it
because acts as the second-half.And so it's like that's a huge,
wonderful work together. So complete, so beautiful.
And then Mark is just so exciting action-packed.
It's all about who is Christ, Who is Christ?
You know if. If I was to pick one, I'd pick
(02:55):
Mark. You'd pick Mark.
Just in general it's the funnestread.
Jesus the superhero, right? Yeah, it's a, it's a quick
action pack. It's.
Just it's just here. Look at all these awesome
things. You just, Yeah.
It's like the closest thing we have to like the comic book
version, you know, it's just like he's the superhero.
But you would say John? If I had to pick one, I I think
(03:16):
I'd, I'd probably have to go forJohn and that is tough, but I
think I think I would. OK, yeah, because OK, I was
troubling. That question, why in there?
OK, so following up with that, oh, John 19 doesn't mention
Simon bearing the cross of Jesuslike the other gospels.
(03:37):
Why is that? Well, you could ask that
question for a million things. You know, not all the gospel
perspectives has the same details.
It's kind of the part of the beauty of it.
I, I, I would just say this, there is a great joy in
harmonizing the gospels to put them all together to see how
(04:01):
they fit beautifully. And then you have more complete
details on certain subjects thatthen that's very rewarding.
And I would encourage you to do it.
However, I would say that more importantly actually, is to take
each gospel perspective in its own writing, understanding that
they wrote exactly what they did, not because they had
(04:23):
amnesia of other events and things, but because they're
actually trying to teach a very certain thing.
Why did you leave them out? You know, for John, he's already
writing a lot. If you think about even just the
work it takes to write such a huge manuscript like that,
there's no backspace and stuff. You're handwriting this thing
and you know, to leave out details like, well, how
(04:46):
important of a detail was that? John just didn't think it was
that important of a detail, especially because he wrote
after everybody else. He basically skipped the whole
thing, just just for everybody who's not familiar exactly with
what John says, basically John 1516 but they cried out away
(05:07):
with him, away with him, crucifyhim, probably said to them,
shall I crucify your king? The chief priest answered, we
have no king. But Caesar then delivered him to
them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led him
away and he bearing his cross went out to a place called the
place of the Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha, where
(05:27):
they crucified him and two others with him, one on either
side and Jesus in the center. This is completely the base.
Skip that whole detail of actually carrying his cross out
there. I mean, they mentioned burying
his cross, but that's that's it.And, you know, it's like, I
think the other, the bigger question would be, why did the
other gospel writers include it?And you'd have to look at the
(05:48):
context and you have to analyze all that with him.
It's just, I don't think that he's, he's missing something for
his purpose. And you know, what did he write?
He wrote these things that you may believe, right?
It's a very evangelistic thing. And I think his, his focus has
just been on Jesus. And he just didn't find that
detail to be necessary to help someone to believe in Jesus.
(06:09):
And so, you know, that's just a simplistic way to look at it,
but it, it could be something else.
But I, I think it's more important to like, why do they,
why do they have what they did have is the better question.
And. We do know that John was one of
the eyewitnesses there, right? Like he was, he was there
watching Jesus be crucified. I guess we don't know if he
followed along with him, but we do know he was there when he's
being crucified because Jesus was talking to him from the
(06:32):
cross and he's. Writing this as an older man
now, he was a young boy when buthe wouldn't forget.
Details of this so he he. Wouldn't well.
Just because he yeah, wasn't relevant to the point he was
making or. Matthew, Mark and Luke were
already in circulation. He had read those works, sure.
And so hey, if it's mentioned all those other times, I.
(06:52):
Mean I mean do. I need to say it too, you know,
I don't know. So the bottom line?
Bottom line is we don't know whyhe omitted Sure, sure.
No. Other than it just wasn't
relevant to the point he was trying to make.
Good, Good question. Good question.
OK. Yep.
All right. So did we stump the theologian?
(07:13):
You'd be the judge. Maybe he doesn't know why he did
not know what John was thinking.That's true.
I'll give you that one so. But yeah, to the point, there
are there are definitely some omissions in some of the Gospels
when you compare them to each other, quite a few, they don't,
they don't change the story obviously.
They just don't give all the details in each of the Gospels,
(07:35):
right. So all right, moving on all.
Right, so so. We are discussing the Is war
good? Yeah, like the morals, the
ethical code of war here, the morality of it.
And so the last time, it's kind of our Part 2 here.
And so last time I just gave these four major views just like
(07:59):
a quick, like a one sentence summary of them.
I'll run through that again justin case a little refresher.
But then what we did last time is we talked about some other
kind of introductory items. And then I, I essentially took
the position of a pacifist and, and Nate didn't see it coming.
He didn't know I was going to dothis and just kind of put him to
trial there like a little, you know, impromptu debates and to
(08:21):
see what would happen. Just kind of flush out that
idea, you know, get people thinking.
And so I'm going to do that again with a different position
for this time around. But the four major views.
Pacifism, basically war is nevergood.
That's the idea. Realism.
War justifies itself. This is the way the world works.
This is the way it has been and how we always will be.
(08:42):
You know that governments are inpursuit of power.
It's just the. Way it is, yeah.
Just yeah. Marry and kill people, yeah.
Holy war, that'd be like, you know, crusades or jihad kind of
stuff. And it's the idea of we're going
to expand our faith system through war.
Convert or die? Yeah.
Yeah, essentially. And that has.
(09:03):
Happened over the years by many different organized religions.
Oh. Yes.
Oh yeah. But I think more so than what
people realize actually. So yeah.
But anyways, then we have like the just war.
And so that would be just the idea that hey, look, there's
legally constituted governments that God put in place and they
(09:24):
have responsibility for all citizens, all faiths to uphold
justice and peace for everyone. And so what's the best way to do
that? Sometimes it's war.
That's the idea. Sure.
All right, so Are you ready? I'm ready.
I'm not going to name the position yet because I just want
us to focus on the information, the information I have, no.
(09:44):
Idea what position you were talking about, so I'm going to
find out here in a minute. OK, here we go.
OK. And now I'm thinking to myself,
I don't want to make it obvious right at the beginning.
So I have, I have some notes here in front of me, but if I
say what I was really going to say at first, it's going to be
obvious, I think right now, OK. All right, make it unobvious.
(10:05):
OK, so God is sovereign. OK, so that basically just means
that he has authority. That's the biggest thing, is
authority. There's other things that come
with that, but there's authority.
Is the biggest thing God, God's.Socrates.
A whole other topic that can be discussed at some point, yeah.
(10:26):
I'm trying to keep it simple right now that so and he's often
seen as working through the governments of the world.
OK, So like there's a there's anelement of freedom.
There's this element where God'sin charge.
OK, so this is a kind of it all works together, but I'm not
(10:46):
wanting to try to explain that right now.
I just want to get to the point here.
So God's sovereign and he's often throughout Scripture scene
working through, you know, actually very like harsh and
morally ambiguous states, if youwill, governments.
There's, there's the emphasis onGod's Providence over messy
(11:09):
power politics. You know, even a Syria is
called, you know, the the hired servant or something like that.
I'm trying to paraphrase here. It was called a servant.
You know, God has raised up nations like Egypt to Syria,
Babylon, Greece, Rome, Persia, you know, you can go on and on
(11:31):
and on raise them up. They accomplished a purpose.
And usually, you know, because they have done sinful things,
they're back down, right. But he, he's, he's working
through that, You know, you know, it's, it's a, it's kind of
an interesting idea. This, this world that we live in
is driven by power and there's always threats to that power.
(11:56):
And so these governments, these states, they, they, they, they
got to use whatever means are necessary to survive and protect
their interests. And so moral rules either really
don't apply or they have to be modified in war because you have
this self preservation that thatis natural.
(12:20):
And really this is you kind of like instinctive, you know, like
like like animals have instincts, you know, And so
obviously God has put us in thisworld where we are.
And it just seems appropriate and natural to me that your face
(12:41):
you can't. Even say all this with a
straight face, can you? Not looking at you and your
face. Oh my goodness.
It just, it just seems national appropriate to me that killing
people. 'S birth part of the game, huh?
Yeah. These these nations are going to
go to war. They have to go to war.
It's not necessarily that you desire war as much as it is a
(13:03):
necessity of just how life in the world works.
There's always war, you know, kill or be killed kind of a
thing, right? What, what, what are your
thoughts on that? I.
Think I mean you're part of yourstatements are true what?
What? What part do you think is true?
I don't even know, I lost track a while ago.
(13:26):
You just start getting a little more and more far fetched.
God's in control. That was true.
God is sovereign. God does.
He works through. God uses nations, raises up
nations. God raises up leaders of
nations. God puts leaders of nations
down. God puts nations down.
(13:46):
God uses 1 nation to punish another nation.
And you see that all the time inthe Bible and through war.
And it's through war, yeah. So really, those are right
things. Yeah, I'm not.
I'm right? Yeah.
God's doing it, but then you went from that to we should be
at war because it's normal. Oh yeah, it's natural.
(14:09):
Just like animals RIP each otherapart.
I mean, even like Daniel 7, right?
The nations are views of these wild beasts.
Yeah, they're just tearing each other apart.
Not. Arguing that.
And I mean it. To not do that really would seem
unnatural to me. No, I I have a discriminate
there. What?
(14:30):
Why, why? Why would you disagree with me?
I just. Yeah, I don't even know.
I just disagree. I mean, you expect the wolf to
go tear up, the sheep do. I expect the wolf to tear up the
sheep and. It makes it makes the wolf
stronger, you know? And and there and there are
wicked people running wicked nations that will go tear up
sheep. That doesn't make it OK.
(14:52):
I mean we all agree in self preservation, self betterment,
it's just it's the same thing with governments really.
That's. And we're really just a, we're a
group of people. We're kind of a unified body of
people that is are getting stronger.
That's not like we're very unified.
Oh, we're doing this fighting wars.
What are you talking about? War has been hey.
(15:14):
You know the best way to unify. Let's go fight a war, yeah?
That's real. Look.
Look at history. No.
No, it it could bring unified people, it could bring nations
together. Oh.
Definitely it could. Bring nations apart?
What? What happened at 911?
Our country came together so well and that's happened with
the world wars that there's there's been lots of wars that
even aren't we have unified and we have become a stronger
(15:36):
people, yeah, especially. Through civil wars?
Definitely you. Find well, you know, that was
like, hey, S, you're not going to become a different nation.
You're going to be our nation. So just just talking about this
is in general, obviously you're taking a position that that
you're taking the one position off and wars is part of life and
(15:57):
this is good. This is do it realism, the
realism view, OK, It's just realthere.
So there. This is bring back to reality,
though. There are different reasons for
things, right? There are different motives.
Some motives are good, some motives are bad.
Sometimes God uses bad people's bad motives for his purposes.
(16:20):
Because he's still sovereign, right?
Yeah, and you may think that you're doing it, but really,
God's doing the whole thing, right?
So if if we're not even really doing it, but that.
Doesn't make what your decision is good.
You know, like if you if you're a bad person making bad
decisions and having bad reasonsfor those decisions, that
doesn't make it OK. Whether?
(16:43):
You do it at a national level oran individual level.
Just like I can't go down the street and just say I want your
house and take it. This is an unjustified war.
Let's put it that way. And they're they're some things
are just not right. And then also how you conduct
yourself. Sometimes it's just not right.
(17:04):
That doesn't mean in that, that there aren't certain cases where
war is justified and war is necessary, or even in defense of
your own homeland or so. Obviously if you're attacked,
you should go to war and defend your country.
But how is it that we have all these conveniences in America?
(17:24):
The wealth has been built off ofwar.
Same thing with all the powerhouses like the England
things that say. The wealth is built off of the
war. Oh man, we got wealthy off some
war. We're in a lot of debt in
America. If you have yes.
Well, everybody's in debt, trillion.
In debt right now, I don't know if we call it wealthy, you tell.
Other countries that America's not wealthy, you tell.
I do all the time and. They don't believe me but.
(17:48):
You talk to other nations about this, what happens?
What? What every every every American
if if every American paid off their portion of the debt is
what, a hundred 100,000 or something like that?
Oh, it's probably more than that.
It's crazy. It's people live in America now.
No more than five 7 million. What?
What? What do you say 3?
(18:09):
103 hundred and some million, right?
Yeah. It's getting up to, it's getting
up to 400. Million How many people live in
America? I'm going to say right now
you're looking at just about 400million.
It's going to be a little less still, I think, but about 400
million. That's my guess, yeah.
This chaotic world, every government really this is self
(18:29):
interested 3. 141 Actor .96 million.
By the way, that would be 400 million if we'd stop killing our
babies. All right.
And then, but when, when was that data?
That's just. 2024. Say old we, we're growing like
crazy. OK?
Hey, look, here's the deal, OK? So it's based on the based on
the, the last number we have, which was last year 342.
(18:53):
So we we owe 3738 trillion. I think we're in our debt now.
We're probably. Like 37 million. 30 I.
Can't even. I think we're, I think we're
losing focus here, yeah. I just no keep going.
OK, well, but you're not paying attention.
I'm. Paying attention.
Get back to me. All right, listen, listen to
(19:14):
this SO. Divided by you got.
See, you're not 340. 2. You can't stop him, audience.
You can't stop this guy. He's a runaway train.
I'm in one rite. Oh, were you still talking?
Oh. My goodness, I can't do that.
Yeah, so every person in Americaowes $111,000.
(19:41):
That's less. Than I thought if all.
Of us paid that we could pay offour national debt.
That includes, like, just born people.
Yeah. It's everyone, yeah.
If I did the math. So someone will probably check
that. All right, OK, but tomorrow.
That would be higher because ourdebt case is going up.
So every government here has to govern.
Unbelievers and is, is, you know, mostly is unbelieving
(20:04):
people and things. And really, you know, you have
like the idea of making disciples, the church, the
church work really that's separate from the secular
governments. And so how do secular
governments operate? Well, I mean, you can kind of
say, well, I wish they would do this or what the reality of it
all is. They're they are just interested
(20:26):
in their own selves. No matter what, you want your
country to succeed more than anyone else's as a government
especially. And and so how do you do that?
A lot of times it's war. I mean, you think about any, any
great country, they are great because they have won wars.
No, that that's true, yeah. Absolutely, which is what
(20:49):
provides for their people. That's that's how they, you
know, America, we, we, we have agreat life because we've won
wars. We we got the power, you know,
which which gives us a lot of leverage in this world and even
the other, you know, powers of the Earth.
That's kind of how it works, youknow?
Yeah, you. Know we we started off by
(21:11):
beating, you know us in England winning the French and Indian
War, which gave England control of half the United States.
Then we beat England in our Revolutionary War 'cause they
would not King George would not accept our demands, right?
Which then gave us half the United States.
They can't. Even imagine the taxes we have
today, but you know, yeah, they.Would.
(21:33):
Lose their minds. There'd be so much tea in the
ocean. What 2?
Percent tax and so much tea, like a couple things and we're
like, yeah, that's. Kind of what gave rise to Coffee
Does Everything. Better, right.
Yeah. Well, but yeah, you know.
Yeah. But we started off you know
with, with war and. And then justified wars, you
(21:55):
know, in in their sense. And and, you know, we want our
freedom because we've been unfairly treated.
And there you go. So, yeah, to your point, yeah,
nations, nations look out for their best interests, and war is
one of the ways to do that. That doesn't always mean it's
(22:19):
morally justified. Sometimes.
Sometimes your best interests inyour opinion as a necessary
morally justified. Well, like you said, you said,
you know, because you agree thatGod is sovereign in all of this.
You say God's doing it. Yeah.
Romans 13, right. For there is no authority except
(22:41):
from God. And those that exist have been
instituted by God. And this is, this is the way
God's moving the world. And so really, it should be
encouraged. It should be encouraged.
It seems to be I don't. Feel like it should necessarily
be encouraged. You wouldn't want to encourage
(23:03):
God's work, I mean. The whole Bible talks about
peace, right And. Not the whole Bible.
There's, there's times of no, definitely not peace, but the,
the end, the end result, right? What we're trying to achieve,
and man has been trying to achieve this without God, you
know, bring on our own utopia, sometimes through war, because
(23:24):
if we can conquer everybody else, then we can be in charge
and have peace. And ultimately, we're going to
have peace right with God. So what?
What should not be encouraged with war?
Which should not be encouraged. In.
General I mean, I, I don't understand what, what's the
question so. I said it should be encouraged
(23:46):
the the war. Should be encouraged.
Yeah, you know, go, go to war. Yeah, be.
Surprised I. Think I think praying for peace
is good I mean I. Want the best for my citizens?
Let's be supreme. Let's conquer.
Yeah, well, part of me likes that.
Firmly. Like I love a good game of Risk,
right? Part of me is like, yeah, let's
(24:08):
do it. But then.
But then. But then the part of me who
lives in this world is like, no,I don't really want to go to
war. Like, I like peace, you know?
I like the best way to have peace.
I like. The good old days of the Cold
War where you woke up every morning knowing you hated
Russia, but neither one of you shot nukes at each other, right?
Because that was just going to be bad, you know?
(24:30):
And then the Soviet Union fell and now you know, everyone's our
enemy again. Used to just have one, but you
you probably remember those days.
The the days of the Cold War, you know.
Oh yes. But ultimately, you, you had
peace, right? And peace is good.
Yeah, so really, we we'd go to war.
(24:51):
This is good. It's just been happening.
Everyone in. Here, you're on top.
You have peace. Zephyr, are you really ever in
top I? Mean when?
When did Israel have their greatest dominance, their
greatest, the greatest peace they ever had?
When? They were serving God.
When when King Solomon ruled after King David was a bloody
(25:13):
bloody man of war and conquer broke the backbone of the the
Canaanites but then. But then Solomon kind of started
falling away from God. And then and then this began the
next generation, the Kingdom split in half and the golden
civil war. And you know what?
He stopped doing going to war they.
Were they were at greatest peacewhen they were most closely
(25:34):
following God? When they.
Had conquered everybody, yeah. And, and then they started
slipping away and they started doing the marriages, all
diplomacy. Part of part of part of part of
following God was he was giving you victory over your enemies.
Yes. Well.
So the idea is though, so then if I'm having victory over my
(25:54):
enemies, I know I'm favored by God, so that's good.
So that goes back to my point then.
Not necessarily because God alsouses some nations to punish
other nations, whether they're maybe maybe.
My nation's the one that's goingto be dealing out some
punishment. It could be.
It very well could be and. That would give us peace and
prosperity. Possibly.
(26:14):
Would it? Not yeah, it would.
Absolutely would. It could.
That doesn't. So you're actually.
That doesn't necessarily make itright though.
You actually. Agree with me here.
No are. You are you taking this view?
You know what I'm saying is justbecause something can happen
doesn't make it the right view. Just.
Because something can happen. Yeah.
But I'm, I'm, I'm seeing a pattern in scripture where I
(26:36):
think this is the way it's supposed to be.
I mean the the Canaanite, the Canaanite slaughter, the the
Israel comes in and wipes out everyone can killer a man,
woman, child, animal and. God commanded it.
Yeah, exactly. God.
Gave ultimate kill order and it.Was the best thing it?
Was the best. Thing right?
No. The best thing would have been
for the Canaanites to all repentof their sins and turn to God,
(26:58):
and he would not have to punish them well.
And what got their attention forrepentance?
Because some did. It was the war.
Yeah, because they war's. Good look at you.
I think. I'm making too much sense here
it. Has, am I right, a place in this
(27:20):
world That doesn't necessarily make it good.
It can be used for God's purposes.
That doesn't necessarily make itultimately good.
Well, I hear you saying that, but all I all I see is that
every time there's war, God commands or is in is in control
(27:41):
of all these different warring nations and only good has ever
come out of it. Only good has ever come out of
it, right? Right.
I mean, I wouldn't say that. Tell that to the losing side.
Well. That's why we all have to be
geared up for war, you know, because there is going to be
war. It's the reality of it.
There's always going to be war and you better be ready.
(28:03):
And really, you need to be proactive because it's going to
happen I. I agree with that I.
Mean you should be ready, but there's some kind of thing out
there where it, like, it tells you like, in how many centuries
there's been like, certain, likea few minutes of World Peace,
like where there's literally no country at war with each other.
Yeah. That it's.
Like a few minutes in centuries,yeah.
Like, yeah, it's. Insane.
(28:24):
No The fact. That war happens all the time
and you should be ready, especially as a nation, to
defend yourself. Those are those are true
statements. That doesn't mean it's it's good
and and that you wish to seek itout.
I think the governments are polled by God to actually go to
war, and that's how a lot of things are resolved.
(28:45):
I mean, Daniel 10, you have Daniel 10.
And so I'm jump in the middle ofsomething here, but you'll
you'll see the point. So let's say I start at verse 18
again. One having the appearance of a
man touched me and strengthened me.
This is Gabriel by the way. And he said, oh man greatly
loved. This is Daniel.
He's talking to fear, not peace.Be with you, be strong and a
good courage. And as you spoke to me, I was
(29:06):
strengthened and said, let my Lord speak for you have
strengthened me. Then he said, do you know why
I've come to you? But now I will return to fight
against the Prince of Persia. And when I go out, behold, the
Prince of Greece will come, and I will tell you what is
described in the Book of Truth. There is none who contends by my
side except these, except Michael, your Prince, like of
Israel. So the idea is that you have
(29:27):
these different, you know, angels.
In the case of Michael, it's an Archangel, and, you know,
they're representing these nations and they're all at war
and they're fighting. And so it is the natural course.
This is what's supposed to happen.
This is the intended use here. We even have a spiritual beings
that are leading these things todeny such a thing as denying
(29:48):
God's plan. Wait, do you disagree?
You know, I don't necessarily disagree.
It makes too much sense to you. I don't I.
Don't. I definitely don't agree, no.
So you can you can say truthful statements that doesn't make
(30:11):
that doesn't make the overall point correct.
War is inevitable. Survival, deterrence and
national interest justify harsh actions.
If we don't do this to them, they will do worse to us.
I want to protect my family, my friends, my loved ones, my
fellow countrymen. The best way to do that is to
(30:33):
proactively go to war and conquer the other nations.
If you're playing a game of Risk, it is.
In real life, Nah. I think that a lot of people are
just living in this naive optimism that you know, we're
going to be fine. It's OK.
I agree with that, but we do we and nations bear the sword
(30:54):
there. Is a place for proactive,
proactive action and there is a place for defending your nation
and there is a place for war. Those things are true.
And it's also true that God is in control and raises up nations
and takes down nations. Those things are true if you if
that doesn't ultimately mean that war is good and should
(31:15):
happen right. Just because God uses something,
something doesn't mean that thatis the ultimate goal that we're
trying to achieve, right? God used to God, but God.
'S good and God's doing it, and it must be good, yeah.
Yeah, God, my brains hurting now.
(31:41):
I don't even know what to say. This is stupid.
It's not stupid. It's not stupid.
The the idea is like all I'm doing is I'm emphasizing
prudence, strategy, deterrence, kill.
That dude in the street, you know, because I have been to God
man, and for good I'll. Tell you what it.
Could be, but probably, you know, I'd still just murder
(32:02):
somebody like. If you know, if you know that
there's a nation that is a good chance that they're going to go
to war with you, you should strategize.
And I also. Think I should just sin and sin
and sin and sin because the grace of God will abound and
that's a good. Thing.
But see, I don't it's not sin, though.
It's not sin, you know, you're just you're, you're going out
(32:23):
there and doing what God's intended you to do as a nation.
Why? You do.
It matters. And it's, of course, it's a
nation we're not talking to individual level.
I'm still saying why you do it matters.
Romans 13 he's. Getting Sweders in charge and
they have to answer to God for their actions but.
They are giving a sword to do what's right and there's a lot
of evil nations out there. We should.
(32:44):
We should conquer them. There you go, part.
Of me agree. Like you look at you.
And so audience want. To remind you that I am taking
up a position here that I don't necessarily personally hold,
but, and Nate is surprised by all of my information and
things, and so you got to give him a break a little bit here,
(33:07):
but you've heard how much he's agreed with me.
Well, you're just saying a bunchof facts and true statements.
Exactly. Obviously I agree with with
facts and true statements, but that doesn't mean that we should
go to war just. Cause it's true and right.
Yeah. Wow.
(33:29):
OK, Well, I think I actually convinced you here 'cause.
You. Just read.
It's true and right. Yeah.
Wow. So, you know, really it's not a
matter of, you know, it's not the same sort of morality that
there's an individual level governments guys giving them the
sword. Like Romans 13 says Romans 7,
he's intended these wild beasts.Daniel 10, you have the, you
(33:49):
know, the Greece, Persia, Israel, all this and it's being
spiritually led by these celestial beings.
It's it's the way it ought to be.
And you know, God has raised up nations for war to accomplish
his purposes. And so look, look at even, you
know, America right now, big powerful nation, you think God
(34:09):
has done that? You know, we can only give God
credit for that. And so for what purpose?
Well, to conquer. To conquer, it goes from like,
is this war to conquer? Yeah.
Well, what's the point of war unless it's to win?
I I I don't know if you're. Fighting a war.
Not to fight the war anymore, I.Think that there's some big
(34:30):
problems out there when people are trying to fight wars and not
having a goal to win. I I agree with.
That that's a, that's a, that's a doesn't make any sense.
They because they, because God has designed us to conquer and
to win, to dominate. We're just to dominate the
earth. That's the original creation
mandate. They have dominion over the
animals. Well, the whole Earth.
(34:52):
The whole earth, yeah. No, that's true.
And then we fell. Nimrod was a mighty hunter
before the Lord. He's the one that raised up all
the greatest nations. Yeah, Nimrod's.
Not really known as being a goodguy.
But he did what he was intended to do.
All right, so there's a verse inmath Matthew, Matthew 59.
(35:12):
Blessed are the peacemakers, forthey should be called sons of
God. Oh, the.
Individuals. Yeah.
Yeah, not institutions. He's sevens.
Yep. Show me where it says a nation
shouldn't go to war. You tell me that it's because
it's so natural we're supposed to do it.
(35:34):
OK, but nations are made-up of individuals?
This world is broken, it's dangerous, it's ruled by power.
This is just just a a part of the whole chess set here.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that I mean really, that's the whole, that's the whole
argument. And you know, Romans 13, the
sword and state go together, God's sovereign over it all.
(35:56):
This is what he is intended for us, we, it is in us to dominate.
It is in us to take over, conquer, to become greater.
That's who we are. In our fallen state.
Did not God design us to dominate, to control, manage the
earth? Yeah, yeah, Hebrews.
(36:18):
Hebrews 12/14 says pursue peace with all people.
Individual level, yeah. It is, but once again, nations
are made-up of individuals. So you have like Psalm 2, Psalm
2 would be nations. So, you know, why do the nations
rage and the people's plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take
counsel together against the Lord and against his anointed,
(36:40):
saying, well, there's the mistake, Yeah, the anointed is
they're trying to war against God.
Yeah. And.
We found how that ends. We.
Don't war against God, but the nations war against other
nations. That's.
Well, the nations are trying to war against God.
And you even see that you know, how does Jesus the ultimate
example with the ultimate Kingdom he.
Kicks her butt, He. He uses war, yeah, and he
(37:02):
conquers everybody. I agree.
He does, wipes him out. I just.
Want to be like my savior? Turn the other cheek.
Well, that's for an insult. On the individual level, we had
this. We're talking about the
institution. This is having foresight wisdom.
OK, OK. Yeah, We want to sit in the
(37:24):
sidelines and just get destroyedby everybody else.
That's not good for our citizens.
I agree. I want, if I'm, if I am a
government, I want the best for my citizens, The the prosperity,
the everything. I, I And if you're not
continually making progress, you're falling behind.
Yeah. I I agree.
So then. You have to conquer other
nations. Or you could just work hard and
(37:45):
and build a good economy and and.
And have a nice have. A nice military set off the
side. Everybody's afraid to attack
you. Speak softly and carry a big
stick have. Have have lots of guns in your
hands of the citizens so that no, we're attacking, yeah.
They have them ready, Yeah, you see.
These stats like like I think just the deer hunters of
(38:05):
Wisconsin would be the 8th largest army in the world or
something like that. I can't believe that you know,
and. Then yeah, cool bears should get
our taxes even more. Yeah.
And so you could just be a country like that.
And guess what? Fairly safe.
You don't have to conquer, you can just be prosperous.
(38:26):
But ultimately, whether. You get soft without war, you
get. Soft you do.
You do get soft, Yeah. Then then you have all those
little artifacts. And when you get soft and
comfortable, you pull away from God, and then God has to punish
you by bringing another nation to attack you so.
You have to continually be conquering through war as a
nation. You know it's inevitable.
It's going to happen. I.
(38:47):
Feel like but. Does that make it you're a
realist? No.
What I'm saying is just because it happens, so it doesn't make
it right. And that's the question.
Yeah. It's.
Right. But you haven't proven morally
that it's right. Just because something happens
is right because. God has designed it this way
over. Here he sins every day.
Does that make it right? He's.
Also fought in the Seven Wars. At least can you name them all
(39:12):
though? Well, you know.
You can, I don't. Want to?
I don't want to expose who this person is.
He likes to be anonymous. That's true.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's like someone's
been in seven wars. That's kind of.
So we're still back. There's a point just.
Because something is inevitable.And just because something
happens, Yeah, doesn't make it morally right.
(39:33):
Yeah, and also doesn't make it just.
Because you're right, just because that doesn't.
Make it that the object of what we should desire to do.
So Yes, wars happen. Yes God is in control.
Yes, they are inevitable. They're going to happen.
Is that Is that what we should aspire to do though?
So like with Daniel. 2 And it does not prove that we should.
(39:55):
Now there are cases, especially in the Bible, God like commands
this. You go do this.
So there are righteously justified wars.
Yep. Not all wars are righteously
justified. And just because they're going
to inevitably happen doesn't prove that they're good and
moral and should happen. What?
War is not good. No, no, wars are good people,
(40:19):
you know, they cause lots of pain and suffering, so.
God commands wars that are not good.
Is that what you're telling me? You said no wars.
Yeah, no. War is good.
That's your statement all. Right, I have to be careful in
how I say this. OK, I'll let you rephrase.
All right. No, in in God's sovereignty He
(40:41):
uses He uses things for his glory and purposes.
That doesn't mean that for the people going through this is a
great experience. Well.
No, no, war hurts there. Hurts there's.
Death. There's pain, there's suffering
for sure. Those things are all bad and
they've been brought on by the fall.
You know, there's a lot, there'sa lot of results in the fall
(41:03):
which are bad. Yep.
Exactly and. Just because God can make good
of it and use them for his purposes doesn't necessarily
make those individual things good.
That the end result is in God's plan and therefore is good.
But the death, suffering, and destruction isn't good, It's
(41:25):
just part of God's plan. I don't know if that makes sense
or not. Well.
I mean, I think I agree that realistically, if there was no
sin ever, then there would neverbe war.
Yeah, that would be that. Would be.
That would be fantastic, but. The earth is broken.
It is broken, and sin has happened.
Yeah. Realistically, yeah.
We all go to war. Yeah, and that's the natural
(41:45):
course that God's set forth in the curse.
And and I can't argue any of those points.
So there's nothing wrong with war.
But then that's when you just admitted that it's not good.
The sin's not good. It's like the original sin.
It's the result of sin. And therefore, why should we do
it well? It's it's like this, you know,
(42:05):
but there. Are there are times when it's
justified and right and commanded by God, but not every
time? So it's like, it's like pain and
childbirth for a human being wasmultiplied as part of the curse.
OK. So when, you know, my wife has
(42:27):
given birth and she's been in incredible pain in that process.
I I only know it from a distance, but I hear that it
felt good. Yeah.
Yeah. It's not that I'm saying that.
Oh, that's evil, That she's experiencing pain?
No, it's just a natural part of the curse, just like war.
But it's not good. It's not, but it's not evil
(42:49):
either. See, it's not really a moral
element here. It's just what's going to
happen. It's natural.
Experiencing pain is not on the same scope as it's our.
Moral. Experience and pain is right
just at war, but death and destruction is different because
(43:11):
you're actively doing things to other people and property.
OK, but God has commanded war, whether it's death, absolutely.
So then so it's it's OK. In some cases it's it's
commanded by God, right? OK, Yeah.
Well, so then we find out that just.
Because it is right and good in some cases doesn't make every
case right and good God. 'S been behind the scenes with
(43:34):
every single war, yeah. And he uses them for SO.
Then it's all good and. He uses them for his purposes.
Right. So then we shouldn't, we
shouldn't try to stop it. We should actually encourage it.
No, see, so that's where you're,you're logically making a jump
that that doesn't belong. I I think it does because you
(43:55):
think about like Daniel 2, Daniel 7, where God predicts
these succeeding kingdoms. How do they succeed each other?
It's war, absolutely. And this is his intended
purposes and plans. He's arranging all these things
there's. Only four kingdoms.
Well, because it only it would. No, there's more than that.
Well, if you count the Medes andPersians as as two, well, you.
(44:15):
Had you had if you count. Greece split it into the four,
but no, there was the Babylonians, there was the Mede
Persians, there was the Greeks, and they're the Romans.
And it stopped. Then the Kingdom of the
Antichrist. Which comes out of the Roman
Empire. It's, well, that's the that's
the iron mix with play. We're still in the Roman Empire
right now. Well.
That's because that's just the ironically, we're.
(44:36):
Still in the Roman Empire. So we we should be at peace
worldwide because Rome took overand there shouldn't be any war
then. Well, we're talking about if
you're using. Daniel as an example.
War is done. Well, no, I think.
I think it's still Rome took. Over.
No, there was the last one I. Do have thoughts on that I?
Know it, but I don't know the. Podcast.
But yeah, I don't want to. Yeah, exactly.
So I have to pause on that because I don't I, I I don't
(44:58):
want to go there. We're not.
I do believe. That that we're still in the
holy the Roman Empire. Essentially, that is the world
power of today. Yeah, the.
World powers of today, especially the Western world,
definitely came out of that. Well, like, OK, we'll pause
because there are other powers. In the world besides the Roman
Empire at the moment, well. Just like with with Babylon
rule, there's other powers in the world too, but they were the
(45:20):
one that was the main focus of God.
Yeah. And so specifically.
In that area that the bell was written in, that affected the
people in the Bible so. You know, with all these things
that are going on, what was in the hearts of every one of those
kingdoms that made them want to go to war and do those things?
It was that natural instinct of we need to become great.
(45:42):
We need to have prosperity for our citizens.
And peace for our citizens, our natural instinct as human beings
is to sin. But this is the way so.
Part of the our natural instinctis not what we're supposed to
do. We're looking at a whole
government. We're.
Yeah, and, and everybody in thatgovernment should change and be
conformed to the image of Christ, so.
What if? What if everybody?
(46:04):
Did that there would be no more need for war.
OK, but if they did that then God's prophecies wouldn't come
true. It would be a bad thing then, if
everyone trusted in God and decided not to be a bad.
Thing if everybody repented and acted like Christ.
Well, no, I. I disagree with that.
That would not be a bad, that would be a good thing.
(46:25):
If everybody repented and turnedto Christ, then how to?
Explain this. We know they're.
Not going to, but it would stillbe good.
Jesus once again prophesied his death, and Peter goes, no, I'm
not gonna let it happen. Yeah, he.
Said get behind me, Satan, right?
Yeah, because. Because it was God's plan.
Yeah. Jesus had to die for my sins,
You're correct. So here's the idea.
(46:46):
It's God's plan for there to be war among nations.
Yeah, so. So it may seem pretty to say no
more war, like some hippie or something, but the idea is that
we actually should be encouraging it.
This is God's plan for the nations for the time being, to
conquer, to become great. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
This is a good thing over the world.
(47:09):
I think I'm making too much sense to you.
I think this is going on. Here you just keep saying the
same point over and over again, because it, because it's and
it's still it's. You're still just you.
Say it's logical, you say it's right.
You're. Making this logical jump from
just because it is to, it shouldbe, Yeah.
And well, there's no proof. There's no proof for the should
be part. I keep asking for the proof of
(47:29):
the should be part and you keep saying the same thing.
Well, it's always been. That's not proof that it should
always be well. Not always.
Jesus will be the final conqueror.
He will be. Yeah, that's how it ends.
And he will do it with. Style.
And, and you know, he does and Ican't.
Wait when? He conquers all the nations to
be there. To watch it.
When he conquers all the nations, he will give prosperity
and peace to all citizens. This is what we're all doing.
(47:52):
Every one of us. Look, look.
Jeremiah 79, right? And so the heart is deceitful
above all things. Desperately sick.
Who could understand it? I can't.
Disagree. It's all it's all a bunch of
sinners. This is just reality of this is
what happens. This is natural course.
This is. Where a lot of a lot of your
wars that take place or are sinful because there are nations
who have tried to bring on this utopia of God without God and
(48:16):
that's wrong. You can't bring the Kingdom of
God without God. So.
So here's the idea I'm more on the side of it all being a
moral. It's just the idea that if God
has designed it this way, these nations conquer these nations.
(48:37):
Well, God is good. Everything does is good.
So then that part of it I'm saying that's good then.
But mostly when I look at like all of time, all of nations, I'm
just saying it's an A moral thing.
And they, they, they will alwaysbe fighting.
And so I'm not going to try to stop that because that's the
design that's there ultimately. OK, you don't have to stop it.
(48:58):
Yeah, go. For it in in fact, I then just
you're going to be a part of it because all the nations are
doing it. So you might as well help your
nation be the best. You might as well.
Why not? I agree.
It's all it's all. So yeah, we, we, we should just,
you know, whatever nation you'rein, you should strive with your
fellow countrymen. To have.
(49:18):
Your Yeah, the, the, the high, you know, Yeah, the the most
powerful nation because that's going to have because the bigger
nation you are, the more powerful you are, the more
prosperity and peace there is for the most citizens.
Yeah, can't argue with that. There you go.
Can't argue with that. That's.
The whole thing in a nutshell for me, can't.
Argue with it as. Taking this position, I.
(49:39):
Can't. I can't argue with it.
It's true. You're you're a realist.
You're a realist. You don't know it.
You're a realist. I'm most definitely not a
realist, but, well, you just keep sending the same thing over
again, so we'll see. Yeah, I.
Agree. Wait till so so here's here's
what I'm gonna say now. OK, we talked about pacifism
last episode. This is opposite of that.
(50:00):
And then? This is this is the realism,
yeah. Yeah, very much.
We shouldn't kill people. Realism is to kill everyone.
Not no, no, Conquer everyone. You don't have to necessarily.
Kill them. We need their tribute.
You conquer. Them there there is a difference
there is a difference I I agree yeah.
And so then like there's there'sholy war, which I didn't bother,
(50:23):
you know, done the holy War One it's you know that's Islam's
jihad. There was a Catholic crusades
and then that's the most, it's the most popular holy war.
Yeah, those are two most popularones all.
Sorts of of organized religions around history.
So you can, you can, but you canunderstand just because those
are popular reference points. Yeah.
So you can get get the idea. So I, you know, and I think it's
(50:44):
pretty easy to kind of get past those.
It's just obviously God does notwant us to.
You'll have the same. Argument that you just did on
this one. God wants us to conquer the
world well. What I think what it would be
is. That it's his will that we take
over it would. Be make disciples at all costs,
and you'd have to be convinced that you can make disciples
through violence I. Think the easiest argument
(51:05):
against that is, you know, when,when Peter chops the ear off and
Jesus puts it back on and put your sword away, let's sort die
by the sword. This is not how Jesus's plan to,
to, to convert people. You know, then we looked at the,
you know, the passage in, in Romans 12 in our last episode.
And it's like here, this is how you should live as a Christian,
you know, be peaceful, right, right.
(51:28):
That's how we should live because then you're like, wow,
that's our individuals. Hey now calm down A.
Nation is made-up of individualsnow that, but then once again
with that, that doesn't mean warshould never be happen or be
justified because there are cases where it can be Jesus.
Even told you if you don't have a sword you go buy one in Luke
(51:49):
2236. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you.
Don't have a sword, he. Didn't say that he used to sell
your. Cloak and get 1, he better get
one. Why?
Did he say that all right? You, you forced me to it.
Let me let's get to the context.What's the context?
All right, sometimes it's more fun just to, you know, throw
things out there. But no, that's, I mean, that's
(52:11):
the scripture. But OK, Luke, Luke 2235 says,
and he said to them. So then before that, you know,
in, in Luke's compiling here, Jesus just prophesized Peter's
denial of Christ. And he's, he's talking about,
you know, he's going on about, you know, basically the new
(52:33):
covenants and what's going to behappening.
He already had the Lord's Supper, you know, that sort of
thing. And so he's going to these
final, final deals. And so they're looking toward
toward the future. And so you think about all like
basically everything that's in the Gospels has, has essentially
happened, you know, most for themost part, OK, we're in the
final week. All right, last few days.
(52:55):
And so then he says in verse 35 and he said to them of Luke 22,
when I sent you out with no money bag or knapsack or
sandals, did you lack anything? They said nothing.
So that was the one that like the, you know, like the 70
disciples and stuff and OK. Go and do the witness and
that's. A whole other thing.
But all right, so then verse 36 he said to them, but now this is
different, you know, moving forward, he's about to go to the
(53:16):
cross, death, burial, resurrection.
The whole gospel is about to happen here, he said to them,
but now let the one who has a money bag take it, and likewise
A knapsack. So the guy's working a little
differently now, OK, He's doing things differently.
And let the one who has no swords sell his cloak and buy
one. For I tell you that this
scripture must be fulfilled in me.
And he was numbered with the transgressors.
(53:38):
That's the scripture. So in other words, the
crucifixion is the idea for whatis written about me has its
fulfillment. And they said, look, Lord, here
are two swords. And he said to them is enough 2
views on that one. Either he's saying that it's
enough to have two swords among 12 people and it's a
mathematical equation of, you know, how to defend yourself.
(53:59):
Or my view, which is actually the minority view, is that he is
frustrated with them because allthese final things are
happening. He's just said he's about to go
to the cross, he's going to be crucified.
He's talking about how they're going to go out and make
disciples of all nations and what are they fixated on?
Killing. People how how many weapons do?
(54:21):
We need to have. It's like defines.
You we got to, we got. So it's.
That's enough. That's how we would say it
today. That's enough.
It's just kind of shutting down the conversation there, changing
it. And that's when Jesus goes off
and praise the Mount of Olives. So like showing like you, you
think that physical sword is your ultimate weapon.
(54:42):
So prayer is your ultimate weapon back.
To my question, why didn't he tell them to go buy the swords?
I, I think there is legitimacy. So this is, this is actually
really Joel Willoughby. Now I'm not doing my fake
position anymore. OK.
So I, I, there is definitely legitimacy in defending
yourself, defending your loved ones, defending your, your, you
know, community kind of a thing.And in, in a righteous way.
(55:05):
So like, you know, the bullies come and it's not just some
little insult or something. They're actually threatening
harm. And so you need to protect
yourself, especially out there. They're going to be making
disciples. They're going to go through all
sorts of dangerous terrain. And just to get an idea of that,
just look at Paul's list of his hardships because he did lots of
travelling and all sorts of, youknow, thieves and all these
other things, you know, everywhere.
(55:26):
And so, yeah, you should be ableto defend yourself so you can do
more for God's Kingdom. Essentially, the idea did Paul.
Ever defend himself? Well, at times he did things
like sometimes he took a beatingwhen he didn't have to.
And I think that was to model how it ought to be done.
And there's other times he goes,are you about to strike a Roman
citizen? So there was times he knew how
(55:48):
to stand up for himself. There was times he, he, you
know, talked back, so to speak, you know, kind of put people in
their places and things. But you, you don't really have a
record of him being physical without the sword.
But but it's, it's one of the thing.
He, he was the apostle. I mean, there was there was
miracles and stuff and there wasjust, it was different.
Like that was the whole point ofwhy it's different now with the,
(56:10):
with the 70 going out, they weredoing miracles so they didn't
have to have the sword and things.
But then, OK, you're not actively doing miracles on
command. Yeah, OK, Get a sword.
You know, God gave us a lot of tools, and we don't want to
dismiss the power of prayer and trusting in God.
But God did design us in such a way and made us aware that we
(56:33):
have wolves around us and we arejust sheep.
And so, hey, you, you need to have a tool in your hand to help
against these wolves in that real physical sense there.
Because, you know, we do have a spiritual warfare that is
definitely primary for us, but we also are aware of the world
that we're in. And there is people that want to
(56:53):
physically harm you. And God says, hey, you have, you
know, this is my paraphrase. Hey, you got a responsibility,
you know, especially as me, as aman I'm, I'm married, I have
kids, husband, father, you know,I, I have to protect them the
best of my ability with the circumstances of men, you know,
everything like that. So anyways, yeah, that's, that's
that's a fun passage. It's really interesting.
(57:14):
I think there's a lot of application that could take from
those few verses there in Luke 22.
You know, I hope we're learning things.
You know, once again, the big thing here is I'm introducing a
lot of ideas to help us think through it.
Like what is actually most scriptural?
What does God want us to do? Is it the pacifist position?
Is it the real estate position? I don't think really anyone here
(57:37):
in America is going for the holywar position.
Like that's not really a, you know, as far as Christians go
today, that's not really what anyone's pushing.
But then there's the just war. And So what I want to do is
present those ideas next in thisseries.
And so that is, you know, now I've gone this far, just war.
If it's not obvious by now, that's my position.
(57:58):
And it's, you know, goes back toAugustine and things, you know,
way back. He's when I kind of introduced
the ideas, at least on record. On record he did.
So OK, But I'll, I'll wrap it upthere with that one because
otherwise we're going to open upanother can of worms.
All right. We like cans of worms.
Yum Yum. All.
Right. Well guys, that's it for today.
Hopefully gave you something to think about.
(58:19):
And once again, if you went to send Joel some hate mail, send
it our way. And yeah, we will see you guys
next time. All right, don't forget to like
and. Subscribe.
You know what to do. And hit that little bell.
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