November 22, 2025 • 40 mins
Episode 55: Hermeneutics & Why Christians Disagree Part 7 Systematic Theology
Why do sincere, Bible-believing Christians often come to such different conclusions about Scripture? In this episode of Brains, Bibles, and Beyond!, we dive into the world of hermeneutics—the art and science of interpretation. Whether it’s theology, ethics, or church practice, how we read the Bible shapes everything. Join us as we explore the key principles behind biblical interpretation, the historical and cultural filters we often overlook, and how differing hermeneutical approaches lead to a variety of Christian beliefs. It's a thoughtful, honest conversation about unity, diversity, and the deep importance of how we read God's Word.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Brains
Bibles and beyond. I am Nate Day, and this
wonderful, magnificent hunk of flesh over here is Joel
Willoughby. I guess so.
And we are so glad you have joined us for nap time.
Just remember, it's better than counting sheep, right?
(00:21):
So why don't you grab your theological receptacle and let's
get started? Well, almost had a cough there.
It's actually kind of hard to slurp out of the out of the
horn. It's a cool horn, but maybe not
the best slurper. It's very unpractical in life,
(00:41):
but it's very, it's very cool todrink out of.
But it looks cool enough, yeah. So all you budding theologians,
we are on spoke number six in our Why do Christians Disagree
study here. So this is actually our 7th
episode on this topic. We're kind of rapid firing these
last few and making them short episodes so that we can kick
(01:02):
them out faster and you guys canget the full picture of this
hermeneutics study. So hopefully you're you're
getting the the gist of it and understanding how you know
there's there's, there's different reasons that people
disagree. Obviously that's the that's the
point of this. And how can we better properly
(01:24):
interpret the Bible to limit some of the disagreements that
are just done out of ignorance? Really so?
Yeah, it's really supposed to bean encouraging and.
Challenging type thing. So I think if we're all, if
we're all coming to the Bible interpretations with the same
set of rules, that will really help us with getting the same
conclusions. It really helps so so well.
(01:46):
So spoke 5 was biblical theology.
Now this one is systematic theology.
They could be looked at as like 2 ditches on a road.
And so it kind of keeps you fromgoing too off the rails in any
One Direction. Also like gutters in a bowling
alley, you know, like the bumper, the bumper walls, right?
(02:07):
And so, you know, as long as youhave your systematic and
biblical theology in place, likehaving the walls guarding you
from the gutters, at least not to get a gutter ball.
And so biblical theology was that big picture continuity of
everything in Scripture, flow ofthought.
Yeah, idea. And then systematic theology is
kind of the opposite. It is the discipline of
(02:30):
exhaustively studying one thing.So it could be a specific person
or place or a concept, a word, you know, whatever, just
anywhere, even even beyond Scripture as like say you deal
with original language type stuff.
You know, seeing it in some other secular sources can help
you understand how that word wasused for that time of writing.
(02:54):
Sure. So then.
Which helps apply to some of theother things that we learned
earlier. Yes, yeah.
Cultural context, literary styles, all those things.
You want, you want to look at historical documentation and
even archaeology, and there's a lot of different things that can
help you understand something. But Scripture is king.
So we always recognize that nothing's as good as scripture,
(03:14):
though it takes the the priority.
OK. So I'm going to give an idea.
I'm just going to, we're going to do systematic theology, OK,
OK. And I think this is a good way
to do it. We're going to have a little bit
of fun here, I think. So I'm going to try not to look
like an idiot. Let's.
I think it'll be fine. You'll be fine.
(03:35):
OK, so Genesis 324, we want to look there first.
We're going to pretend that thisis the first time we've ever
started to read the Bible. We started in Genesis 1, OK.
And then we happen to get to this verse, Genesis 324.
And I just want you to think through a a certain idea with
(03:55):
me. OK, you want me to read it?
Yeah. Go ahead, go ahead.
Doesn't matter what version. Just go, yeah, it doesn't
matter, OK. So he drove out the man, and he
placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and the
flaming sword which turned everyway to guard the way of the Tree
of Life. OK, so there's a few things
(04:19):
that. Just just that verse with no
contact. So we look.
Go look. Absolutely no contacts.
Absolutely none. So we're going to.
So we're just going to think of ourselves as a first time
reader. Start in Genesis 1.
I get to this verse. We we've kind of swallowed a
lot. So far there's a couple of
statements here that are that really stick out and he drove
them out. The one I'm going to focus on
(04:40):
though, because we could. You could do a systematic study
of the tree of life. You could try to figure
something out with a flaming sword.
Yeah, and you can think about, you know, like anyways, Eden,
the garden, you know, whatever. There's less little concepts you
can study. The one I'm going to focus on is
Cherubim. OK, so let let's.
You know find a bunch of statements made here, right?
(05:01):
Like you drove them out. Yeah, lots of stuff that you
could. He placed a cherubim there.
And you should so then. So then, so I mean breaking it
down, your first question is drove out of where?
Well, Eden right, because you see that immediately before it
in in context, placed a cherubimat the East End of the garden of
Eden. So so we drove him out of Eden.
Now we're guarded in the garden.Apparently you only get in from
(05:24):
the East End. Yep, because then you have and
placed a a flaming sword, which turned every way.
Then your question in my mind, I've always thought the the
cherubim was holding the flamingsword, but this makes it look
like that's that's something different, right it?
Is something different. And so, so they're like, OK,
what's the flaming sword? Which I have no idea.
And yeah, good luck down, obviously.
(05:45):
Now the flavoring store was there.
Well, and really, I guess the the chairman also to guard the
weight of the Tree of Life, which is really why they were
guarding the Garden of Eden, right?
To keep him away for the Tree oflife.
Yes, there's a whole purpose of that too, but we're not going
to. Not going to look at any of
that, but you have all these statements.
So if you're breaking it down, you would basically look at each
one, say, OK, so looking at the context form, we're going to
(06:09):
look at the cherubim. So because we're only going to
look at how to do systematic theology, we do have to pick one
thing. And I thought the most
interesting thing would be to study cherubim.
I thought the most interesting was the flaming sword.
Well, you can do cherubim. It's because you don't, you may
not have a full appreciation of the cherubim yet.
And so we will today. So if you think about though,
(06:30):
like if you it's your first timeever, you read that word
cherubim. And you're like, what's a
cherubim? That's what you have the least
understanding about. I know what a sword is.
Drive out the man. There's options there, but
there's a general idea. You made him leave.
Garden Eden, a place, a flaming sword.
There's a lot I don't understandthere, but I know what a sword
(06:52):
is and I know what flames are, you know.
So there's there's some, you know, tree of life, a tree.
OK, so really it's cherubim is the one thing that there's
nothing in my head already. Yeah, this is the first.
This is the first time cherubim's mentioned right in
the Bible. Scripture, if you're going
through Genesis, yeah, yeah, allthe way through.
So what do you think might pop up in your head?
(07:14):
If this is the first time you'veever seen this Word and you're
looking at Genesis 324, what does this look like to you?
I don't know. First thing is that if I have no
other concept of anything else in the Bible, I have no idea
what a cherubim is. Maybe I'd have an idea of.
Something big and scary I'm saying.
And clearly it's it's it's some being used as some form of
(07:35):
guardian, right? We know that from the context.
It is a guardian. I think, I think our our minds
automatically when I think guardian, I think of a humanoid
like humanoid, I think biped humanoid.
OK, but but I we don't know right Like.
(07:58):
We don't allow places, right? So well, all right, so let's get
into it. OK, so we want to perform a word
study. So what's the difference between
word study and systematic theology?
Very little. So systematic theology is the
bigger concept. Yeah, a word study would be a
tool that you would use as part of your systematic theology.
(08:20):
A word study done correctly is systematic theology for that
word. OK, but there's other things to
study which? Is basically just systematically
studying something, yeah. Just you do a word study, you're
more interested in things like etymology, where the word
developed from, how to transfer from language to language, what
(08:41):
was its meaning in each context throughout history.
What are my sources of information?
How reliable are they? You know, and so you kind.
Of go through a whole. That sounds exciting, yeah.
It is, it is or you. Or you meet smart friends that
that can just tell you all that stuff.
But they had to do the work to begin with.
Yep, and that's fine. Which we're gonna learn.
Some work is more exciting for some people to do than others.
(09:02):
For me, I love this kind of stuff, so yeah.
Which is why I have smart friends.
So are nerds, so. Here we we're going to start to
dissect this now. What kind of tools do you have?
I have a whole list of free resources online and we'll leave
in the description. I'll make sure I pass it on to
(09:24):
you so we can get it. Yeah, give me.
Those for my Bible state training, I actually go through
and use some of these free sources, not my own stuff.
That way you can see how to do it on your own, like you know
you can do it yourself. I'm going to skip some of that
kind of info and just kind of give you a rundown here.
So First off, I am at the end ofthe word cherubim, that M, it's
(09:46):
actually pronounced EME and it'sthe Hebrew plural.
So it'd be like adding S in English.
They add IM and that's a plural.So a cherub would be singular.
Cherubim is more than one. And properly it would be, you
know, Karubim karubim. But no one ever knows what that
is. So you say cherubim?
(10:09):
Yeah. So that's, yeah, a Karu.
So what you're saying is more than one.
There is, yeah, there is. We don't know how many but but
multiple. At least two, at least 2.
Right, right. OK.
So something like Strong's exhaustive concordance would say
one of the one of the parts of the definition is it's an
(10:29):
angelic being. And I'm going to go ahead and
say right now. You don't like You don't like
the term Angel? Maybe not an Angel for.
For for cherubim. Yeah, well, because never in the
Bible. Cause Angel just means
messenger. Right, correct.
It's like a like this broad termand I don't see him bringing a
message. I mean, it makes himself stay
(10:50):
out. Message of death his.
His message Yes. If you see this room of of
heavenly being standing there with a flaming sword somewhere
nearby, you're like, you know what?
I'm not going to go over there. So I guess the message received
right, right. OK.
So maybe not, maybe not the wrong term.
(11:10):
But I'm going to go ahead and suggest that nowhere in the
Bible do you ever see the cherubim.
Or let's let's throw in Seraphim.
Seraphim also yeah, you. Never see either one of them
called an Angel. You never hear an Angel called
one of them. They seem to be their own
different, like a celestial creature of some type.
It's just. Like flexible being I think is
(11:32):
the a better. It's a it's a more general term
that's accurate. So, so like the Browns driver,
Briggs, BDB, it's a more it's a popular tool.
It's free as well. Some places it's like the
definition's uncertain. OK.
Yeah, I think so. They say possibly it is a this
is a quote from them living chariot of the Theophanic God.
(11:57):
OK, so some of that stuff you need another.
Dictionary now, Yeah. So what's a living chariot?
A living chariot. Well, we're going to we're going
to kind of talk to that idea a little.
Bit here OK. So we know what God is.
Theophonic means like it's like from a theophany.
That phony part is like appearance.
Theo is God. So theophany is appearance of
(12:17):
God. OK, Christophany is specifically
appearance of. Jesus.
That's Jesus. Yeah.
So then here it says living chariot of the Theophonic God.
In other words, it's just sayingthat when God appears, he's
often on the on this chariot or something.
That would be the the cherubim. And so that's the idea.
But where did we get that from in Scripture?
(12:38):
Yeah, let's let's hold on to that, OK, OK, so this is just
what they're saying. So that's like, you know,
there's a lot you have to look up still.
So some passages mentioned Cherubim as artwork, but there
are many references. Look up.
So let's just start going through some of these things and
see how it all works out. When you look at the free
resources for Bible study or anyresources for Bible study, use
(13:01):
them responsibly. Just like if you do a Google
search on something, the first couple of answers might not be
right. This is the ones that are paid
for. Yeah, they might.
They might be right. They might not be right.
Always, always, always. When you're doing Bible study,
engage with Scripture 1st and use commentaries last.
The very last thing you do because commentaries are not
(13:23):
Bible study. Commentaries are the conclusions
of Bible study, and so somebody.Else has already concluded and
wrote it down. And they say this is, this is
what I think, this is how I got there.
Some are more fair than others about mentioning other views and
things. So you have to be careful with
that too. Even if they do mention of the
views, sometimes there can be a a skew the information.
(13:44):
So you will. Here's another view, and I think
it's dumb. Yeah, and This is why it's dumb,
which it might not have deservedthat, you know.
And so you you don't want to read all these conclusions of
Bible study and then read those conclusions into the text.
You want to be able to study yourself.
And then when you read a commentary, it's more like
having a discussion. So a concordance would be a good
(14:05):
tool to start with then. So you can find where cherubim
was mentioned in other places, right?
So yeah, concordance, the whole idea there is I can look up the
word cherubim and it'll show me an exhaustive concordance will
show me every single place that that word shows.
So you have to look, you know, for like cherub and cherubim
then at that. Sure, in that case.
But anyways. But it'd be better, it'd be
(14:26):
better to look up in the Bible where cherubim's written down,
then yes, where Joel Willoughby said cherub right means.
Not as good. OK.
OK. So let's so first passage, we're
going to go to Second Samuel 22.OK.
Second Samuel 22 And so we'll just do one thing at a time.
(14:47):
I'll get like, I like to get ahead of myself a little bit.
So there is poetry here. It politically describes God's
response to a cry for help. OK, so let's jump to verse 11.
So 8 through 16 is kind of like the context I had, but we're
just going to read verse 11, allright?
He rode upon a cherub and flew, and he was seen upon the wings
(15:12):
of the wind. So it talks about God riding on
a cherub. So that's that concept of a
chariot. Chariot's not necessarily a
horse drawn buggy with two wheels.
It could just be your mode of transportation.
Basically, OK, basically, yeah. So right now, just just looking
(15:32):
at that verse, I might be tempted to say God's celestial
mode of transportation. It's a Popemobile.
Maybe I would nuts. The popemobile is like a tank,
right? A little bubble tank, yeah.
Anyways, so they might be God's celestial steeds here, but it is
poetic, so we want to be careful.
(15:55):
So Psalm 1810 also mentions God writing cherubim.
OK, so you can go there, Psalm 1810.
You can read that when you get to it.
I'm there. Psalm 1810.
And he rode upon a cherub and flew, He flew upon the wings of
the wind. So now.
So is it a Pegasus? I.
(16:18):
Is it a Unicorn with wings? That's an alicorn.
An alicorn. I learned that from the junior
high girl one time when I was teach you something.
Something that is written that flies.
So what's interesting about Psalm 1810 though, is if you
look at the context, it is revealed that is the same exact
(16:38):
thing as Second Samuel 2211. It is.
It is the copy. So those are not 2 events, those
are one event. So sometimes when we start
counting scripture passages. Saying that looks really
familiar. We might say, we might say hey
there's 5 verses that all say this, but how many events is
that? Sure, that's a good point.
(16:59):
That's a really, Yeah. So it might only be one or two
events, you know, So it's reallyimportant to count that as well.
Always, when you do good systematic theology, you're
studying the full context of every passage you go to.
Yeah, we're just picking on a verse, but you would read the
whole chapter. That takes a lot of work, Yeah.
To do it well, to do it right, Yeah.
So like the art of the. Context of this verse, remember.
(17:21):
I mentioned it was like artwork as well.
So the Ark of the Covenant had cherubim sculpted on it.
So like the wings were over the mercy seats.
So somehow Moses knew what a cherub looked like.
They did. They did.
OK. Yep.
So somebody had to see one. Yes, well, you know they did, at
least from Genesis, and it couldhave been oral tradition passing
(17:43):
down information. They were very a big part of the
Jewish culture. Angels all together, like any
kind of celestial beings. You used angels refer to.
But but they yeah, because it's mainly angels, mainly angels and
I mean that and it's technical distinction, but they had a lot
of information in their culture about such things and a
(18:03):
prominence that probably shouldn't have been there over
and above what it what it shouldhave been.
But they did. And so anyways, the Tabernacle
as well with Tabernacle curtains, they're decorated with
the design of cherubim on them as well.
That those are discussed plenty and other passages.
So they weren't necessarily artwork, they were used as
(18:24):
artwork. They were, yeah, yeah, they,
they embroidered them and thingsinto the they, they.
Weren't the art. Yeah, it was like either the the
Ark of the Covenant, it was goldthat they beat the gold into
these images, or they, you know.An image of a cherub.
Thread threaded it into the curtains kind of thing.
So David shares the plans for the temple construction with
Solomon in First Chronicles 28. In the last part of verse 18 it
(18:48):
says also to say all these plansfor all these different things
also is planned for the golden chariot of the cherubim.
The golden chariot of the Cherubim that spread their wings
and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
So there you have this golden chariot mentioned of the
cherubim. So golden chariot that's owned
by the Cherubim or the golden chariot which is the Cherubim.
(19:11):
Either one could work. Yeah.
Gotcha of that. So, you know, hey, let's just
hold that on our hats there. Then a partial instructions for
building the Ark of the Covenantin Exodus 2517 through 22.
I'll read that it says you shallmake a mercy seat of pure gold.
2 cubits and a half shall be itslength, and a cubit and a half
(19:32):
its breadth. Do you remember how long a cubit
is? Roughly 18 inches, right, 18.
Inches. Yeah, that's what they call the
sacred cubit. And that's like the more the
Hebrew thing, but it's just elbow to fingertip.
Yeah. And so there's actually
different size cubits in different cultures.
Depends on how big you are. Yeah, right, right.
I have short arms, my cubits probably 12 inches.
(19:54):
The Egyptians had a longer cubitthan the Hebrews.
Do they? Yeah, Longer arms.
Well, possibly, or they figured it out from something.
But anyways, so that's about theyeah.
So 2 cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half
its breadth in verse 18. And you shall make 2 cherubim of
gold of hammered work, shall youmake them on the 2 ends of the
(20:14):
mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end
and one cherub on the other end.Of one piece with the mercy seat
shall you make the cherubim on its 2 ends?
So one piece of gold, the verse 20.
Then the cherubim shall spread out their wings above,
overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces
one to another toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the
(20:35):
cherubim be specific wording there.
And you shall put the mercy seaton the top of the ark, and in
the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.
There I shall meet with you so pretty special place and says in
him from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubim
that are on the ark of the testimony.
I will speak with you about all that I've given give you a
(20:56):
commandment for the people of Israel.
So very specifically God's presence seems be consistently
associated with cherubim. He's riding on them.
And then now you see, you know, the Tabernacle like his
presence, right? The Ark of the Covenant, the
Mercy seat, his presence once again.
They seem to be always around him.
(21:16):
And they have wings. And they have wings.
Yeah. Yep.
So very, very neat stuff. Very specific.
You know, he says, I'm going to meet you there from above the
mercy seat from between the two cherubim that are on the Ark of
the Testimony. I'll speak with you there.
So above the mercy seat between the two cherubim like that.
(21:37):
Yeah. It's, it's interesting, though,
how specific that is. OK.
So then the plot thickens. Let's learn more.
OK, so then we figure out that Satan is a cherub.
So we all have these weird pictures in our heads from, you
know, cartoons as kids. And you got like the red guy
with the horns and the tail. The point the.
(22:00):
Little pitchfork guy. Yeah, I don't know why
agriculture is this thing, but, you know, whatever.
So then so, so Satan the cherub.So Ezekiel 28, Ezekiel 28's the
the deal there. And I'm going to start in the
the later part of verse 12. And so it's dressing King of
(22:20):
Tyre. Now how I believe it works out
is Prince of Tyre was the actualhuman king, which is
foreshadowing the Antichrist, the final Antichrist.
Whereas King of Tyre would have,you know, most likely been a
real physical king. It could have been that the king
and Prince of Tyre is actually the same person.
(22:42):
It's just using the different words king and Prince which are
which can be interchangeable. But here I do believe this is
Satan and how he's empowering the Antichrist in the future,
how he empowers this, you know, very wicked Kingdom.
But as you go through it, it becomes obvious.
This is definitely talking aboutSatan.
So verse 12, you were the signetof perfection, full of wisdom
(23:05):
and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the Garden of
God. Every precious stone was your
covering. Sardius, Topaz and diamond
barrel, Onyx and Jasper, sapphire, emerald and carbuncle
and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings on
the day that you were created. They were prepared.
(23:27):
You were an anointed guardian cherub I placed you.
You were on the holy mountain ofGod, in the midst of the stones
of fire. You walked.
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created
till unrighteousness was found in you in the abundance of your
trade. You are filled with violence in
your midst, and you send. So I cast you as a profane thing
(23:50):
from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian
cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Your heart was proud because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom. For the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground. I exposed you before kings to
feast their eyes on you by the multitude of your iniquities in
(24:10):
the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your
sanctuaries. So I brought fire out of out
from your midst. It consumed you and I turned you
to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
And wrapping up here the verse 19.
All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you.
You have come to a dreadful end.You shall be no more forever.
(24:32):
Whoa. So then it's like, So what does
Satan look like here? You know, that's kind of
interesting, yeah. So regardless of this, this is
Satan or not, which is a whole nother price study.
Definitely is but but it does. I'm not disagreeing, but it does
definitely also describe what a cherub looks like.
Right, partially. Well, so then, but.
(24:53):
Sparkling with all these gemstones.
The dude was bedazzled before bedazzled was cool.
I wonder though, if this was special one, general or
individual. So it's kind of like this, Like
when you're not used to a peoplegroup, they all look the same.
It doesn't matter who you are around the world.
When you're not used to a peoplegroup, they all look the same.
(25:14):
Sure. And so then the more you get
used to a people group though, you go, OK, you can clearly see
all these little differences. There's some differences.
The same thing for someone spends a lot of time with, let's
say, foxes. You know, at first all foxes
look the same, you know, maybe all red foxes, whatever, they
all look the same. But then you spend time, you
start to see the differences. So you can't necessarily make
application from here to all chair, but you can to this
(25:38):
chair. This chair, at least, was
beautiful and a guardian. I think what this does for our
study more than anything is it may give us some insight into
the original purpose. Like the big duty of a cherub.
To me it seems like there is a guardianship because you have
(25:58):
them guarding the way of the tree of life in the beginning,
and here he's called a guardian cherub.
What exactly he was supposed to be guarding, I think there's up
to for debate there, but I thinkit had to do something with
either the Earth, humanity, maybe Eden itself, you know,
whatever it was, Adam and Eve, whatever it was, he went
backwards on what he was supposed to do.
(26:20):
He got proud. Yes, pride your.
Heart was lifted up because of your beauty.
Yep, he thought he was cooler than he really was.
Very glorious and you know that.I can only imagine that was
there, which still is. In your wisdom, for the sake of
splendor. Satan would look the same today
as then. So that's an interesting idea.
(26:44):
But then it gets we get a whole lot more for description though,
a whole lot more. So that's just Satan as a
individual and probably more I could say with that, but I'm
trying to stay on topic for for the kadobeam.
Yeah. OK, so let's go on the next
thing here, Ezekiel 1. So Ezekiel 1 and 10 have the two
(27:11):
most detailed, exhaustive descriptions of cherubim.
We're not going to look at chapter 10.
You can look at yourself. A lot of its repetition.
There is one detail that would be different from Ezekiel 10 as
Ezekiel one, but I think there'sa way to put that together.
So it's not a contradiction. I think it's actually OK, but
(27:31):
OK, so Ezekiel one, if so, if I I was going to start in verse 4
and just as a cool thing. So listeners, as we come across
words such as, like or as, I trynot to use like or as, it's
showing. It's showing that Ezekiel cannot
(27:54):
actually describe what he's seeing.
He has to say it's like this. This is the best shot I got.
It's trying, trying to paint an image, yeah, the best he can
with the descriptions that he can give.
A big difference between this isit or this is like it.
And so we see that in prophetic literature a lot like Revelation
things. So a good study tool for that is
(28:15):
just be looking for words like that, like your ass.
OK, so it says verse 4, Ezekiel,Ezekiel chapter 1.
As I looked, behold, A stormy wind came out of the north, and
a great cloud with brightness around it, and fire flashing
forth continually. And in the midst of the fire, as
it were gleaming metal, and fromthe midst of it came the
likeness of four living creatures.
(28:38):
So that's what I see. Cherubim Seraphim called in as a
generalization as living creatures.
So Isaiah 6 would be like your seraphim.
Revelation 4 mentions living creatures that look like the
seraphim of Isaiah 6. And there's other things too,
but just a quick little that's for free.
OK, The first five. And from the midst of it came
the likeness of four living creatures.
(28:58):
And this was their appearance. They had a human likeness.
Remember you said humanoid, bipedal.
So you have, you have a, you know, you get some points there,
but each this is where this is where it goes away from a human
likeness. But each had four faces and each
of them had four wings. And their legs were straight,
and the soles of their feet werelike the sole of a calves foot,
(29:18):
and they sparkle like burnished bronze under their wings.
On their four sides they had human hands and the four had
their faces and their wings. Thus this is how their faces and
wings were. Verse 9.
Their wings touched one another.Each one of them went
straightforward without turning as they went.
As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face.
(29:39):
The four had the face of a line on the right side, the four had
the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face
of an eagle. Now in chapter 10, instead of
where it says face of an ox, it says face of a cherub.
So I don't think it's a contradiction.
I think that that's the face of the cherub.
Like that's their main face probably is that is the ox face.
OK, Verse 11. Such were their faces, and their
(30:02):
wings were spread out above. Each creature had two wings,
each of which touched the wing of another, while 2 covered
their bodies and each went straightforward.
Wherever the spirit would go, they went without turning as
they went. As to the likeness of the living
creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like
the appearance of torches movingto and fro among the living
creatures. They kind of have visual
(30:23):
representation there. Also when it says wherever the
spirit would go, they went. I think that the spirit you, you
could argue that it's the Holy Spirit guiding all of these, or
it could just be their own spirit and like they're just
(30:43):
going to mention these wheels here in a little bit and it's
like their same spirit is in them and the wheel.
So it'd be like how my hand doeswhat my spirit wants it to do.
And let let's say that my hand was detached in the rest of my
body, but I still had the same control over it.
It'd be kind of like that same idea, I think, but a little bit
(31:03):
complicated. OK, so this says in the fires in
the verse 13 and the fire was bright.
Now the fire went forth lightning, and the living
creatures darted to and fro likethe appearance of a flash of
lightning. Now as I looked at the living
creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living
creatures, one for each of the four of them.
As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction,
(31:25):
their appearance was like the gleaming of barrel, and the four
had the same likeness, their appearance and construction
being as it were a wheel within a wheel.
When they went, they went in anyof their four directions without
turning as they went. And their rims were tall and
awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all
around. And when the living creatures
(31:47):
went, the wheels went beside them.
And when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels
rose. Wherever the spirit wanted to
go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them.
For the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
When those went, these went. And when those stood, these
stood. And when those rose from the
earth, the wheels rose along with them.
(32:08):
With the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
Over the heads of the living creatures, there was the
lightness of an expanse. This is where it kind of gets
really cool. This is kind of getting to the
main punchline of this whole thing.
Shining like awe inspiring crystals spread out above their
heads and under the expanse their wings were stretched out
straight, one toward another, and each creature had two wings
(32:29):
covering its body. And when they went, I heard the
sound of their wings, like the sound of many waters, like the
sound of the Almighty, a sound of tumult, like the sound of an
army. When they stood still, they let
down their wings, and there camea voice from above the expanse
over their heads. When they stood still they let
down their wings, and above the expanse over their heads there
(32:51):
was a likeness of a throne, an appearance like sapphire.
And seated above the likeness ofa throne was a likeness with a
human appearance. And upward from what had the
appearance of his waist, I saw as it were gleaming metal, like
the appearance of fire enclosed all around And downward from
what had the appearance of his waist, I saw as it were the
(33:12):
appearance of fire. And there was brightness around
him, like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the
day of rain Rainbow. So was the appearance of the
brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the
likeness of the glory of the Lord.
And when I saw it, I fell on my face and I heard the voice of
one speaking. Whoa.
(33:33):
So when we and I'll let you, I'll let you ask some questions
and fire back here a little bit.But just a quick wrap up thought
for that. We're near the end of the whole
thing. The idea is that when we have a
fascination for something like the cherubim, then we see that
they're just simply the accent to the majesty of God.
And so the whole point of this big display is then even greater
(33:58):
is obviously it's Jesus on his throne.
That's, that's when you put all the pieces together.
It's Jesus on his throne. And so here you have they
obviously are transporting. There's wheels even all sorts of
things. Go ahead and fire back at me
here a little bit. There's there's lots of things.
All right, so, so that's a, that's a beautiful chapter
(34:18):
there. I'm with, you know, Ezekiel
chapter 1. But yeah, you describe a
celestial being of some sort that's definitely in the
presence of God. Yep, Yep.
But I didn't see anywhere in there.
So it was a cherub. So right.
So I'm assuming you have a little more of this like, OK,
hey, this is this also description of a cherub.
(34:39):
I know you referenced chapter 10.
Do we just need to go there and and look at that a little more?
Yeah, I wasn't going to take thetime to walk through the whole
passage, but. Which we don't have to.
If you do, just go to Chapter 10, OK?
You'll see over and over again. We're basically describing the
same things. Same thing and it's named.
I mean, I don't. Know but it says cherubim in
like every verse or at least to start with first one.
(35:03):
Cherubim verse 2 cherub verse 3 cherubim verse 4, cherub verse 5
cherubim. Kind of get the point.
It's like it's like 12 times. And it's describing the same
scene here, so OK. So that's where I make the
connections you used to read those patches parallel and you
can kind of get a little bit more of a picture.
OK, but spectacular. So, so, so back to kind of the
(35:28):
whole point of this, which is systematic theology.
And this is a small example how to.
Learn more and more about something.
This is a small example of one of the tools of systematic
theology, which is a word study,right?
You know, you've picked a verse,you say, huh, what's that?
And then you dig into what's that systematically?
Yeah. So one of the tools would be a
concordance straight up, right? You, you, you look through it,
(35:50):
it pops everywhere. One of the tools is, is just
looking at it on some of the rules we we had, you know,
context, right? Historical context.
Literally context. I should throw in there though.
You have to be careful just whenyou're only using English
because there's. Yes, depending on the
translation, sometimes they'll use many different English words
for the same original word, correct.
(36:12):
And so you're not necessarily seeing that in a clear
consistency. And so that's that's where it
does pay off to be able to search the same original word at
least. Yeah, so knowledge, so knowledge
of the original language would definitely help you.
But you can do this without that.
And it's just take some take some study though.
And that's the whole point is ifyou want to know what a cherub
(36:33):
is, yeah, you need to dig in andsee what the Bible says about
cherubs, cherubim, chair beam ora cherub.
And, and there is a lot that says not only in there in there.
I'm sure there's more that talksabout the cherubim.
Obviously the, the example here of Ezekiel really gets a lot of
details of, of at least a description.
(36:56):
So, yeah. And that's kind of just an
example of of digging in and studying systematically.
So then you see all this stuff like, you know, you never would
have thought Satan was this cherub.
Ezekiel 28, that sort of thing. But there he is described and
that's what he's called. And so then you're like, well,
I've never pictured him that way.
It's a little more it's an accurate, more biblical picture.
(37:17):
And, you know, it also kind of lets you know his place.
Like he wasn't necessarily the most powerful special being.
Michael takes him out and Jude, you know, so at least Michael's
tougher. That's kind of a neat thing.
But but you see like he's just kind of like this celestial kind
of chariot. I agree.
Like a chariot, like a, like a living chariot, you know, it's
(37:39):
like they're like all the wheelsand stuff together and it's kind
of a strange thing. Yes, the way the way Ezekiel
describes this is almost like you got these, you got these
cherub with yeah, with wheels. They're sitting on them and
writing them or part of them, however, you know, painting the
the mental image and then like the throne like sits on it
(37:59):
almost right. It's like the litter.
So it's like, it's not. I don't think it's like the
throne perhaps perhaps, OK, perhaps it's just the you know,
because sometimes the king wouldgo off like in the big like
carpeted thing, all the. Slaves would carry kind.
Of a deal, except it's these cherubim you know that are
carrying it. So the references earlier of the
(38:20):
the chariot, that's basically. That's kind of.
Kind of the idea. Looked like, you know, sure.
You have to go off of what they,you know what Ezekiel knew.
Yeah, that's a tough one to think through that, but it just
shows off a systematic theology and how it can develop things so
much more. And so now you go back to
Genesis 3 and you read that in Genesis 3, you know, 24,
(38:40):
whatever it was, Genesis 24. Now you got a really scary
looking dude. So then you're like, oh wow,
that's interesting. You know, that's a whole lot.
You know, it gives you some shape to it and you know, just
shows you how sincere God was and keeping him away 'cause you
want to have life with Him. 'Cause really the other
description of of cherubim in the Bible are really like throne
(39:02):
room guardians almost or. Yes.
And so I forgot to put his throne room guardians to guard
Eden. It was.
It was important to keep people out.
I think is that, you know, basically that's mainly what
they are, is the guardians of his presence.
OK. And so I wonder if, you know,
maybe, you know, Satan is the one that he had a guardianship
(39:23):
of God's presence on that earth or something, but he's the one
that kind of went off and did his own little thing.
And yeah, speculation. That's another study.
Yeah, that's another study it gives you.
Thinking, that's why I love systematic theology.
It just, you know, it gives you a framework like these things
are OK, this is what's actually says in Scripture.
And then other things is like, well, maybe we can speculate,
but we can't know or, you know, yeah, yeah, it gives you some
(39:45):
framework for thinking. You kind of, Yeah.
No, it makes sense. So, All right.
Well, that's awesome. I think that pretty well wraps
up this. I I think we get the idea across
here. So obviously we can give more
examples, but I think that's gets it.
So this was spoke six of seven yes, episode 7 in our series on
(40:06):
why do Christians disagree. So hopefully you guys found some
value in this and can can continue to garner some tools
that will help in your personal Bible study.
That is the point of this. It's to give you some tools and
just like, Hey, this is these are good rules for personal
Bible study and if we all. Study our Bible with better
(40:26):
rules, we'll have better theology and in general, well,
hopefully that's disagreements. So yeah.
Or if we do have a disagreement,we'll have a a unified way of
not. So much on the major thing of.
Looking at the scriptures to be like, OK, let's figure this out
together. So all right, we're going to
wrap this up. We will be back with our next
episode on spoke #7. We'll see you guys later.
Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Brains
Bibles and beyond. I am Nate Day, and this
wonderful, magnificent hunk of flesh over here is Joel
Willoughby. I guess so.
And we are so glad you have joined us for nap time.
Just remember, it's better than counting sheep, right?
(00:21):
So why don't you grab your theological receptacle and let's
get started? Well, almost had a cough there.
It's actually kind of hard to slurp out of the out of the
horn. It's a cool horn, but maybe not
the best slurper. It's very unpractical in life,
(00:41):
but it's very, it's very cool todrink out of.
But it looks cool enough, yeah. So all you budding theologians,
we are on spoke number six in our Why do Christians Disagree
study here. So this is actually our 7th
episode on this topic. We're kind of rapid firing these
last few and making them short episodes so that we can kick
(01:02):
them out faster and you guys canget the full picture of this
hermeneutics study. So hopefully you're you're
getting the the gist of it and understanding how you know
there's there's, there's different reasons that people
disagree. Obviously that's the that's the
point of this. And how can we better properly
(01:24):
interpret the Bible to limit some of the disagreements that
are just done out of ignorance? Really so?
Yeah, it's really supposed to bean encouraging and.
Challenging type thing. So I think if we're all, if
we're all coming to the Bible interpretations with the same
set of rules, that will really help us with getting the same
conclusions. It really helps so so well.
(01:46):
So spoke 5 was biblical theology.
Now this one is systematic theology.
They could be looked at as like 2 ditches on a road.
And so it kind of keeps you fromgoing too off the rails in any
One Direction. Also like gutters in a bowling
alley, you know, like the bumper, the bumper walls, right?
(02:07):
And so, you know, as long as youhave your systematic and
biblical theology in place, likehaving the walls guarding you
from the gutters, at least not to get a gutter ball.
And so biblical theology was that big picture continuity of
everything in Scripture, flow ofthought.
Yeah, idea. And then systematic theology is
kind of the opposite. It is the discipline of
(02:30):
exhaustively studying one thing.So it could be a specific person
or place or a concept, a word, you know, whatever, just
anywhere, even even beyond Scripture as like say you deal
with original language type stuff.
You know, seeing it in some other secular sources can help
you understand how that word wasused for that time of writing.
(02:54):
Sure. So then.
Which helps apply to some of theother things that we learned
earlier. Yes, yeah.
Cultural context, literary styles, all those things.
You want, you want to look at historical documentation and
even archaeology, and there's a lot of different things that can
help you understand something. But Scripture is king.
So we always recognize that nothing's as good as scripture,
(03:14):
though it takes the the priority.
OK. So I'm going to give an idea.
I'm just going to, we're going to do systematic theology, OK,
OK. And I think this is a good way
to do it. We're going to have a little bit
of fun here, I think. So I'm going to try not to look
like an idiot. Let's.
I think it'll be fine. You'll be fine.
(03:35):
OK, so Genesis 324, we want to look there first.
We're going to pretend that thisis the first time we've ever
started to read the Bible. We started in Genesis 1, OK.
And then we happen to get to this verse, Genesis 324.
And I just want you to think through a a certain idea with
(03:55):
me. OK, you want me to read it?
Yeah. Go ahead, go ahead.
Doesn't matter what version. Just go, yeah, it doesn't
matter, OK. So he drove out the man, and he
placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and the
flaming sword which turned everyway to guard the way of the Tree
of Life. OK, so there's a few things
(04:19):
that. Just just that verse with no
contact. So we look.
Go look. Absolutely no contacts.
Absolutely none. So we're going to.
So we're just going to think of ourselves as a first time
reader. Start in Genesis 1.
I get to this verse. We we've kind of swallowed a
lot. So far there's a couple of
statements here that are that really stick out and he drove
them out. The one I'm going to focus on
(04:40):
though, because we could. You could do a systematic study
of the tree of life. You could try to figure
something out with a flaming sword.
Yeah, and you can think about, you know, like anyways, Eden,
the garden, you know, whatever. There's less little concepts you
can study. The one I'm going to focus on is
Cherubim. OK, so let let's.
You know find a bunch of statements made here, right?
(05:01):
Like you drove them out. Yeah, lots of stuff that you
could. He placed a cherubim there.
And you should so then. So then, so I mean breaking it
down, your first question is drove out of where?
Well, Eden right, because you see that immediately before it
in in context, placed a cherubimat the East End of the garden of
Eden. So so we drove him out of Eden.
Now we're guarded in the garden.Apparently you only get in from
(05:24):
the East End. Yep, because then you have and
placed a a flaming sword, which turned every way.
Then your question in my mind, I've always thought the the
cherubim was holding the flamingsword, but this makes it look
like that's that's something different, right it?
Is something different. And so, so they're like, OK,
what's the flaming sword? Which I have no idea.
And yeah, good luck down, obviously.
(05:45):
Now the flavoring store was there.
Well, and really, I guess the the chairman also to guard the
weight of the Tree of Life, which is really why they were
guarding the Garden of Eden, right?
To keep him away for the Tree oflife.
Yes, there's a whole purpose of that too, but we're not going
to. Not going to look at any of
that, but you have all these statements.
So if you're breaking it down, you would basically look at each
one, say, OK, so looking at the context form, we're going to
(06:09):
look at the cherubim. So because we're only going to
look at how to do systematic theology, we do have to pick one
thing. And I thought the most
interesting thing would be to study cherubim.
I thought the most interesting was the flaming sword.
Well, you can do cherubim. It's because you don't, you may
not have a full appreciation of the cherubim yet.
And so we will today. So if you think about though,
(06:30):
like if you it's your first timeever, you read that word
cherubim. And you're like, what's a
cherubim? That's what you have the least
understanding about. I know what a sword is.
Drive out the man. There's options there, but
there's a general idea. You made him leave.
Garden Eden, a place, a flaming sword.
There's a lot I don't understandthere, but I know what a sword
(06:52):
is and I know what flames are, you know.
So there's there's some, you know, tree of life, a tree.
OK, so really it's cherubim is the one thing that there's
nothing in my head already. Yeah, this is the first.
This is the first time cherubim's mentioned right in
the Bible. Scripture, if you're going
through Genesis, yeah, yeah, allthe way through.
So what do you think might pop up in your head?
(07:14):
If this is the first time you'veever seen this Word and you're
looking at Genesis 324, what does this look like to you?
I don't know. First thing is that if I have no
other concept of anything else in the Bible, I have no idea
what a cherubim is. Maybe I'd have an idea of.
Something big and scary I'm saying.
And clearly it's it's it's some being used as some form of
(07:35):
guardian, right? We know that from the context.
It is a guardian. I think, I think our our minds
automatically when I think guardian, I think of a humanoid
like humanoid, I think biped humanoid.
OK, but but I we don't know right Like.
(07:58):
We don't allow places, right? So well, all right, so let's get
into it. OK, so we want to perform a word
study. So what's the difference between
word study and systematic theology?
Very little. So systematic theology is the
bigger concept. Yeah, a word study would be a
tool that you would use as part of your systematic theology.
(08:20):
A word study done correctly is systematic theology for that
word. OK, but there's other things to
study which? Is basically just systematically
studying something, yeah. Just you do a word study, you're
more interested in things like etymology, where the word
developed from, how to transfer from language to language, what
(08:41):
was its meaning in each context throughout history.
What are my sources of information?
How reliable are they? You know, and so you kind.
Of go through a whole. That sounds exciting, yeah.
It is, it is or you. Or you meet smart friends that
that can just tell you all that stuff.
But they had to do the work to begin with.
Yep, and that's fine. Which we're gonna learn.
Some work is more exciting for some people to do than others.
(09:02):
For me, I love this kind of stuff, so yeah.
Which is why I have smart friends.
So are nerds, so. Here we we're going to start to
dissect this now. What kind of tools do you have?
I have a whole list of free resources online and we'll leave
in the description. I'll make sure I pass it on to
(09:24):
you so we can get it. Yeah, give me.
Those for my Bible state training, I actually go through
and use some of these free sources, not my own stuff.
That way you can see how to do it on your own, like you know
you can do it yourself. I'm going to skip some of that
kind of info and just kind of give you a rundown here.
So First off, I am at the end ofthe word cherubim, that M, it's
(09:46):
actually pronounced EME and it'sthe Hebrew plural.
So it'd be like adding S in English.
They add IM and that's a plural.So a cherub would be singular.
Cherubim is more than one. And properly it would be, you
know, Karubim karubim. But no one ever knows what that
is. So you say cherubim?
(10:09):
Yeah. So that's, yeah, a Karu.
So what you're saying is more than one.
There is, yeah, there is. We don't know how many but but
multiple. At least two, at least 2.
Right, right. OK.
So something like Strong's exhaustive concordance would say
one of the one of the parts of the definition is it's an
(10:29):
angelic being. And I'm going to go ahead and
say right now. You don't like You don't like
the term Angel? Maybe not an Angel for.
For for cherubim. Yeah, well, because never in the
Bible. Cause Angel just means
messenger. Right, correct.
It's like a like this broad termand I don't see him bringing a
message. I mean, it makes himself stay
(10:50):
out. Message of death his.
His message Yes. If you see this room of of
heavenly being standing there with a flaming sword somewhere
nearby, you're like, you know what?
I'm not going to go over there. So I guess the message received
right, right. OK.
So maybe not, maybe not the wrong term.
(11:10):
But I'm going to go ahead and suggest that nowhere in the
Bible do you ever see the cherubim.
Or let's let's throw in Seraphim.
Seraphim also yeah, you. Never see either one of them
called an Angel. You never hear an Angel called
one of them. They seem to be their own
different, like a celestial creature of some type.
It's just. Like flexible being I think is
(11:32):
the a better. It's a it's a more general term
that's accurate. So, so like the Browns driver,
Briggs, BDB, it's a more it's a popular tool.
It's free as well. Some places it's like the
definition's uncertain. OK.
Yeah, I think so. They say possibly it is a this
is a quote from them living chariot of the Theophanic God.
(11:57):
OK, so some of that stuff you need another.
Dictionary now, Yeah. So what's a living chariot?
A living chariot. Well, we're going to we're going
to kind of talk to that idea a little.
Bit here OK. So we know what God is.
Theophonic means like it's like from a theophany.
That phony part is like appearance.
Theo is God. So theophany is appearance of
(12:17):
God. OK, Christophany is specifically
appearance of. Jesus.
That's Jesus. Yeah.
So then here it says living chariot of the Theophonic God.
In other words, it's just sayingthat when God appears, he's
often on the on this chariot or something.
That would be the the cherubim. And so that's the idea.
But where did we get that from in Scripture?
(12:38):
Yeah, let's let's hold on to that, OK, OK, so this is just
what they're saying. So that's like, you know,
there's a lot you have to look up still.
So some passages mentioned Cherubim as artwork, but there
are many references. Look up.
So let's just start going through some of these things and
see how it all works out. When you look at the free
resources for Bible study or anyresources for Bible study, use
(13:01):
them responsibly. Just like if you do a Google
search on something, the first couple of answers might not be
right. This is the ones that are paid
for. Yeah, they might.
They might be right. They might not be right.
Always, always, always. When you're doing Bible study,
engage with Scripture 1st and use commentaries last.
The very last thing you do because commentaries are not
(13:23):
Bible study. Commentaries are the conclusions
of Bible study, and so somebody.Else has already concluded and
wrote it down. And they say this is, this is
what I think, this is how I got there.
Some are more fair than others about mentioning other views and
things. So you have to be careful with
that too. Even if they do mention of the
views, sometimes there can be a a skew the information.
(13:44):
So you will. Here's another view, and I think
it's dumb. Yeah, and This is why it's dumb,
which it might not have deservedthat, you know.
And so you you don't want to read all these conclusions of
Bible study and then read those conclusions into the text.
You want to be able to study yourself.
And then when you read a commentary, it's more like
having a discussion. So a concordance would be a good
(14:05):
tool to start with then. So you can find where cherubim
was mentioned in other places, right?
So yeah, concordance, the whole idea there is I can look up the
word cherubim and it'll show me an exhaustive concordance will
show me every single place that that word shows.
So you have to look, you know, for like cherub and cherubim
then at that. Sure, in that case.
But anyways. But it'd be better, it'd be
(14:26):
better to look up in the Bible where cherubim's written down,
then yes, where Joel Willoughby said cherub right means.
Not as good. OK.
OK. So let's so first passage, we're
going to go to Second Samuel 22.OK.
Second Samuel 22 And so we'll just do one thing at a time.
(14:47):
I'll get like, I like to get ahead of myself a little bit.
So there is poetry here. It politically describes God's
response to a cry for help. OK, so let's jump to verse 11.
So 8 through 16 is kind of like the context I had, but we're
just going to read verse 11, allright?
He rode upon a cherub and flew, and he was seen upon the wings
(15:12):
of the wind. So it talks about God riding on
a cherub. So that's that concept of a
chariot. Chariot's not necessarily a
horse drawn buggy with two wheels.
It could just be your mode of transportation.
Basically, OK, basically, yeah. So right now, just just looking
(15:32):
at that verse, I might be tempted to say God's celestial
mode of transportation. It's a Popemobile.
Maybe I would nuts. The popemobile is like a tank,
right? A little bubble tank, yeah.
Anyways, so they might be God's celestial steeds here, but it is
poetic, so we want to be careful.
(15:55):
So Psalm 1810 also mentions God writing cherubim.
OK, so you can go there, Psalm 1810.
You can read that when you get to it.
I'm there. Psalm 1810.
And he rode upon a cherub and flew, He flew upon the wings of
the wind. So now.
So is it a Pegasus? I.
(16:18):
Is it a Unicorn with wings? That's an alicorn.
An alicorn. I learned that from the junior
high girl one time when I was teach you something.
Something that is written that flies.
So what's interesting about Psalm 1810 though, is if you
look at the context, it is revealed that is the same exact
(16:38):
thing as Second Samuel 2211. It is.
It is the copy. So those are not 2 events, those
are one event. So sometimes when we start
counting scripture passages. Saying that looks really
familiar. We might say, we might say hey
there's 5 verses that all say this, but how many events is
that? Sure, that's a good point.
(16:59):
That's a really, Yeah. So it might only be one or two
events, you know, So it's reallyimportant to count that as well.
Always, when you do good systematic theology, you're
studying the full context of every passage you go to.
Yeah, we're just picking on a verse, but you would read the
whole chapter. That takes a lot of work, Yeah.
To do it well, to do it right, Yeah.
So like the art of the. Context of this verse, remember.
(17:21):
I mentioned it was like artwork as well.
So the Ark of the Covenant had cherubim sculpted on it.
So like the wings were over the mercy seats.
So somehow Moses knew what a cherub looked like.
They did. They did.
OK. Yep.
So somebody had to see one. Yes, well, you know they did, at
least from Genesis, and it couldhave been oral tradition passing
(17:43):
down information. They were very a big part of the
Jewish culture. Angels all together, like any
kind of celestial beings. You used angels refer to.
But but they yeah, because it's mainly angels, mainly angels and
I mean that and it's technical distinction, but they had a lot
of information in their culture about such things and a
(18:03):
prominence that probably shouldn't have been there over
and above what it what it shouldhave been.
But they did. And so anyways, the Tabernacle
as well with Tabernacle curtains, they're decorated with
the design of cherubim on them as well.
That those are discussed plenty and other passages.
So they weren't necessarily artwork, they were used as
(18:24):
artwork. They were, yeah, yeah, they,
they embroidered them and thingsinto the they, they.
Weren't the art. Yeah, it was like either the the
Ark of the Covenant, it was goldthat they beat the gold into
these images, or they, you know.An image of a cherub.
Thread threaded it into the curtains kind of thing.
So David shares the plans for the temple construction with
Solomon in First Chronicles 28. In the last part of verse 18 it
(18:48):
says also to say all these plansfor all these different things
also is planned for the golden chariot of the cherubim.
The golden chariot of the Cherubim that spread their wings
and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
So there you have this golden chariot mentioned of the
cherubim. So golden chariot that's owned
by the Cherubim or the golden chariot which is the Cherubim.
(19:11):
Either one could work. Yeah.
Gotcha of that. So, you know, hey, let's just
hold that on our hats there. Then a partial instructions for
building the Ark of the Covenantin Exodus 2517 through 22.
I'll read that it says you shallmake a mercy seat of pure gold.
2 cubits and a half shall be itslength, and a cubit and a half
(19:32):
its breadth. Do you remember how long a cubit
is? Roughly 18 inches, right, 18.
Inches. Yeah, that's what they call the
sacred cubit. And that's like the more the
Hebrew thing, but it's just elbow to fingertip.
Yeah. And so there's actually
different size cubits in different cultures.
Depends on how big you are. Yeah, right, right.
I have short arms, my cubits probably 12 inches.
(19:54):
The Egyptians had a longer cubitthan the Hebrews.
Do they? Yeah, Longer arms.
Well, possibly, or they figured it out from something.
But anyways, so that's about theyeah.
So 2 cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half
its breadth in verse 18. And you shall make 2 cherubim of
gold of hammered work, shall youmake them on the 2 ends of the
(20:14):
mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end
and one cherub on the other end.Of one piece with the mercy seat
shall you make the cherubim on its 2 ends?
So one piece of gold, the verse 20.
Then the cherubim shall spread out their wings above,
overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces
one to another toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the
(20:35):
cherubim be specific wording there.
And you shall put the mercy seaton the top of the ark, and in
the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.
There I shall meet with you so pretty special place and says in
him from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubim
that are on the ark of the testimony.
I will speak with you about all that I've given give you a
(20:56):
commandment for the people of Israel.
So very specifically God's presence seems be consistently
associated with cherubim. He's riding on them.
And then now you see, you know, the Tabernacle like his
presence, right? The Ark of the Covenant, the
Mercy seat, his presence once again.
They seem to be always around him.
(21:16):
And they have wings. And they have wings.
Yeah. Yep.
So very, very neat stuff. Very specific.
You know, he says, I'm going to meet you there from above the
mercy seat from between the two cherubim that are on the Ark of
the Testimony. I'll speak with you there.
So above the mercy seat between the two cherubim like that.
(21:37):
Yeah. It's, it's interesting, though,
how specific that is. OK.
So then the plot thickens. Let's learn more.
OK, so then we figure out that Satan is a cherub.
So we all have these weird pictures in our heads from, you
know, cartoons as kids. And you got like the red guy
with the horns and the tail. The point the.
(22:00):
Little pitchfork guy. Yeah, I don't know why
agriculture is this thing, but, you know, whatever.
So then so, so Satan the cherub.So Ezekiel 28, Ezekiel 28's the
the deal there. And I'm going to start in the
the later part of verse 12. And so it's dressing King of
(22:20):
Tyre. Now how I believe it works out
is Prince of Tyre was the actualhuman king, which is
foreshadowing the Antichrist, the final Antichrist.
Whereas King of Tyre would have,you know, most likely been a
real physical king. It could have been that the king
and Prince of Tyre is actually the same person.
(22:42):
It's just using the different words king and Prince which are
which can be interchangeable. But here I do believe this is
Satan and how he's empowering the Antichrist in the future,
how he empowers this, you know, very wicked Kingdom.
But as you go through it, it becomes obvious.
This is definitely talking aboutSatan.
So verse 12, you were the signetof perfection, full of wisdom
(23:05):
and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the Garden of
God. Every precious stone was your
covering. Sardius, Topaz and diamond
barrel, Onyx and Jasper, sapphire, emerald and carbuncle
and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings on
the day that you were created. They were prepared.
(23:27):
You were an anointed guardian cherub I placed you.
You were on the holy mountain ofGod, in the midst of the stones
of fire. You walked.
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created
till unrighteousness was found in you in the abundance of your
trade. You are filled with violence in
your midst, and you send. So I cast you as a profane thing
(23:50):
from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian
cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Your heart was proud because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom. For the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground. I exposed you before kings to
feast their eyes on you by the multitude of your iniquities in
(24:10):
the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your
sanctuaries. So I brought fire out of out
from your midst. It consumed you and I turned you
to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
And wrapping up here the verse 19.
All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you.
You have come to a dreadful end.You shall be no more forever.
(24:32):
Whoa. So then it's like, So what does
Satan look like here? You know, that's kind of
interesting, yeah. So regardless of this, this is
Satan or not, which is a whole nother price study.
Definitely is but but it does. I'm not disagreeing, but it does
definitely also describe what a cherub looks like.
Right, partially. Well, so then, but.
(24:53):
Sparkling with all these gemstones.
The dude was bedazzled before bedazzled was cool.
I wonder though, if this was special one, general or
individual. So it's kind of like this, Like
when you're not used to a peoplegroup, they all look the same.
It doesn't matter who you are around the world.
When you're not used to a peoplegroup, they all look the same.
(25:14):
Sure. And so then the more you get
used to a people group though, you go, OK, you can clearly see
all these little differences. There's some differences.
The same thing for someone spends a lot of time with, let's
say, foxes. You know, at first all foxes
look the same, you know, maybe all red foxes, whatever, they
all look the same. But then you spend time, you
start to see the differences. So you can't necessarily make
application from here to all chair, but you can to this
(25:38):
chair. This chair, at least, was
beautiful and a guardian. I think what this does for our
study more than anything is it may give us some insight into
the original purpose. Like the big duty of a cherub.
To me it seems like there is a guardianship because you have
(25:58):
them guarding the way of the tree of life in the beginning,
and here he's called a guardian cherub.
What exactly he was supposed to be guarding, I think there's up
to for debate there, but I thinkit had to do something with
either the Earth, humanity, maybe Eden itself, you know,
whatever it was, Adam and Eve, whatever it was, he went
backwards on what he was supposed to do.
(26:20):
He got proud. Yes, pride your.
Heart was lifted up because of your beauty.
Yep, he thought he was cooler than he really was.
Very glorious and you know that.I can only imagine that was
there, which still is. In your wisdom, for the sake of
splendor. Satan would look the same today
as then. So that's an interesting idea.
(26:44):
But then it gets we get a whole lot more for description though,
a whole lot more. So that's just Satan as a
individual and probably more I could say with that, but I'm
trying to stay on topic for for the kadobeam.
Yeah. OK, so let's go on the next
thing here, Ezekiel 1. So Ezekiel 1 and 10 have the two
(27:11):
most detailed, exhaustive descriptions of cherubim.
We're not going to look at chapter 10.
You can look at yourself. A lot of its repetition.
There is one detail that would be different from Ezekiel 10 as
Ezekiel one, but I think there'sa way to put that together.
So it's not a contradiction. I think it's actually OK, but
(27:31):
OK, so Ezekiel one, if so, if I I was going to start in verse 4
and just as a cool thing. So listeners, as we come across
words such as, like or as, I trynot to use like or as, it's
showing. It's showing that Ezekiel cannot
(27:54):
actually describe what he's seeing.
He has to say it's like this. This is the best shot I got.
It's trying, trying to paint an image, yeah, the best he can
with the descriptions that he can give.
A big difference between this isit or this is like it.
And so we see that in prophetic literature a lot like Revelation
things. So a good study tool for that is
(28:15):
just be looking for words like that, like your ass.
OK, so it says verse 4, Ezekiel,Ezekiel chapter 1.
As I looked, behold, A stormy wind came out of the north, and
a great cloud with brightness around it, and fire flashing
forth continually. And in the midst of the fire, as
it were gleaming metal, and fromthe midst of it came the
likeness of four living creatures.
(28:38):
So that's what I see. Cherubim Seraphim called in as a
generalization as living creatures.
So Isaiah 6 would be like your seraphim.
Revelation 4 mentions living creatures that look like the
seraphim of Isaiah 6. And there's other things too,
but just a quick little that's for free.
OK, The first five. And from the midst of it came
the likeness of four living creatures.
(28:58):
And this was their appearance. They had a human likeness.
Remember you said humanoid, bipedal.
So you have, you have a, you know, you get some points there,
but each this is where this is where it goes away from a human
likeness. But each had four faces and each
of them had four wings. And their legs were straight,
and the soles of their feet werelike the sole of a calves foot,
(29:18):
and they sparkle like burnished bronze under their wings.
On their four sides they had human hands and the four had
their faces and their wings. Thus this is how their faces and
wings were. Verse 9.
Their wings touched one another.Each one of them went
straightforward without turning as they went.
As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face.
(29:39):
The four had the face of a line on the right side, the four had
the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face
of an eagle. Now in chapter 10, instead of
where it says face of an ox, it says face of a cherub.
So I don't think it's a contradiction.
I think that that's the face of the cherub.
Like that's their main face probably is that is the ox face.
OK, Verse 11. Such were their faces, and their
(30:02):
wings were spread out above. Each creature had two wings,
each of which touched the wing of another, while 2 covered
their bodies and each went straightforward.
Wherever the spirit would go, they went without turning as
they went. As to the likeness of the living
creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like
the appearance of torches movingto and fro among the living
creatures. They kind of have visual
(30:23):
representation there. Also when it says wherever the
spirit would go, they went. I think that the spirit you, you
could argue that it's the Holy Spirit guiding all of these, or
it could just be their own spirit and like they're just
(30:43):
going to mention these wheels here in a little bit and it's
like their same spirit is in them and the wheel.
So it'd be like how my hand doeswhat my spirit wants it to do.
And let let's say that my hand was detached in the rest of my
body, but I still had the same control over it.
It'd be kind of like that same idea, I think, but a little bit
(31:03):
complicated. OK, so this says in the fires in
the verse 13 and the fire was bright.
Now the fire went forth lightning, and the living
creatures darted to and fro likethe appearance of a flash of
lightning. Now as I looked at the living
creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living
creatures, one for each of the four of them.
As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction,
(31:25):
their appearance was like the gleaming of barrel, and the four
had the same likeness, their appearance and construction
being as it were a wheel within a wheel.
When they went, they went in anyof their four directions without
turning as they went. And their rims were tall and
awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all
around. And when the living creatures
(31:47):
went, the wheels went beside them.
And when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels
rose. Wherever the spirit wanted to
go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them.
For the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
When those went, these went. And when those stood, these
stood. And when those rose from the
earth, the wheels rose along with them.
(32:08):
With the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
Over the heads of the living creatures, there was the
lightness of an expanse. This is where it kind of gets
really cool. This is kind of getting to the
main punchline of this whole thing.
Shining like awe inspiring crystals spread out above their
heads and under the expanse their wings were stretched out
straight, one toward another, and each creature had two wings
(32:29):
covering its body. And when they went, I heard the
sound of their wings, like the sound of many waters, like the
sound of the Almighty, a sound of tumult, like the sound of an
army. When they stood still, they let
down their wings, and there camea voice from above the expanse
over their heads. When they stood still they let
down their wings, and above the expanse over their heads there
(32:51):
was a likeness of a throne, an appearance like sapphire.
And seated above the likeness ofa throne was a likeness with a
human appearance. And upward from what had the
appearance of his waist, I saw as it were gleaming metal, like
the appearance of fire enclosed all around And downward from
what had the appearance of his waist, I saw as it were the
(33:12):
appearance of fire. And there was brightness around
him, like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the
day of rain Rainbow. So was the appearance of the
brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the
likeness of the glory of the Lord.
And when I saw it, I fell on my face and I heard the voice of
one speaking. Whoa.
(33:33):
So when we and I'll let you, I'll let you ask some questions
and fire back here a little bit.But just a quick wrap up thought
for that. We're near the end of the whole
thing. The idea is that when we have a
fascination for something like the cherubim, then we see that
they're just simply the accent to the majesty of God.
And so the whole point of this big display is then even greater
(33:58):
is obviously it's Jesus on his throne.
That's, that's when you put all the pieces together.
It's Jesus on his throne. And so here you have they
obviously are transporting. There's wheels even all sorts of
things. Go ahead and fire back at me
here a little bit. There's there's lots of things.
All right, so, so that's a, that's a beautiful chapter
(34:18):
there. I'm with, you know, Ezekiel
chapter 1. But yeah, you describe a
celestial being of some sort that's definitely in the
presence of God. Yep, Yep.
But I didn't see anywhere in there.
So it was a cherub. So right.
So I'm assuming you have a little more of this like, OK,
hey, this is this also description of a cherub.
(34:39):
I know you referenced chapter 10.
Do we just need to go there and and look at that a little more?
Yeah, I wasn't going to take thetime to walk through the whole
passage, but. Which we don't have to.
If you do, just go to Chapter 10, OK?
You'll see over and over again. We're basically describing the
same things. Same thing and it's named.
I mean, I don't. Know but it says cherubim in
like every verse or at least to start with first one.
(35:03):
Cherubim verse 2 cherub verse 3 cherubim verse 4, cherub verse 5
cherubim. Kind of get the point.
It's like it's like 12 times. And it's describing the same
scene here, so OK. So that's where I make the
connections you used to read those patches parallel and you
can kind of get a little bit more of a picture.
OK, but spectacular. So, so, so back to kind of the
(35:28):
whole point of this, which is systematic theology.
And this is a small example how to.
Learn more and more about something.
This is a small example of one of the tools of systematic
theology, which is a word study,right?
You know, you've picked a verse,you say, huh, what's that?
And then you dig into what's that systematically?
Yeah. So one of the tools would be a
concordance straight up, right? You, you, you look through it,
(35:50):
it pops everywhere. One of the tools is, is just
looking at it on some of the rules we we had, you know,
context, right? Historical context.
Literally context. I should throw in there though.
You have to be careful just whenyou're only using English
because there's. Yes, depending on the
translation, sometimes they'll use many different English words
for the same original word, correct.
(36:12):
And so you're not necessarily seeing that in a clear
consistency. And so that's that's where it
does pay off to be able to search the same original word at
least. Yeah, so knowledge, so knowledge
of the original language would definitely help you.
But you can do this without that.
And it's just take some take some study though.
And that's the whole point is ifyou want to know what a cherub
(36:33):
is, yeah, you need to dig in andsee what the Bible says about
cherubs, cherubim, chair beam ora cherub.
And, and there is a lot that says not only in there in there.
I'm sure there's more that talksabout the cherubim.
Obviously the, the example here of Ezekiel really gets a lot of
details of, of at least a description.
(36:56):
So, yeah. And that's kind of just an
example of of digging in and studying systematically.
So then you see all this stuff like, you know, you never would
have thought Satan was this cherub.
Ezekiel 28, that sort of thing. But there he is described and
that's what he's called. And so then you're like, well,
I've never pictured him that way.
It's a little more it's an accurate, more biblical picture.
(37:17):
And, you know, it also kind of lets you know his place.
Like he wasn't necessarily the most powerful special being.
Michael takes him out and Jude, you know, so at least Michael's
tougher. That's kind of a neat thing.
But but you see like he's just kind of like this celestial kind
of chariot. I agree.
Like a chariot, like a, like a living chariot, you know, it's
(37:39):
like they're like all the wheelsand stuff together and it's kind
of a strange thing. Yes, the way the way Ezekiel
describes this is almost like you got these, you got these
cherub with yeah, with wheels. They're sitting on them and
writing them or part of them, however, you know, painting the
the mental image and then like the throne like sits on it
(37:59):
almost right. It's like the litter.
So it's like, it's not. I don't think it's like the
throne perhaps perhaps, OK, perhaps it's just the you know,
because sometimes the king wouldgo off like in the big like
carpeted thing, all the. Slaves would carry kind.
Of a deal, except it's these cherubim you know that are
carrying it. So the references earlier of the
(38:20):
the chariot, that's basically. That's kind of.
Kind of the idea. Looked like, you know, sure.
You have to go off of what they,you know what Ezekiel knew.
Yeah, that's a tough one to think through that, but it just
shows off a systematic theology and how it can develop things so
much more. And so now you go back to
Genesis 3 and you read that in Genesis 3, you know, 24,
(38:40):
whatever it was, Genesis 24. Now you got a really scary
looking dude. So then you're like, oh wow,
that's interesting. You know, that's a whole lot.
You know, it gives you some shape to it and you know, just
shows you how sincere God was and keeping him away 'cause you
want to have life with Him. 'Cause really the other
description of of cherubim in the Bible are really like throne
(39:02):
room guardians almost or. Yes.
And so I forgot to put his throne room guardians to guard
Eden. It was.
It was important to keep people out.
I think is that, you know, basically that's mainly what
they are, is the guardians of his presence.
OK. And so I wonder if, you know,
maybe, you know, Satan is the one that he had a guardianship
(39:23):
of God's presence on that earth or something, but he's the one
that kind of went off and did his own little thing.
And yeah, speculation. That's another study.
Yeah, that's another study it gives you.
Thinking, that's why I love systematic theology.
It just, you know, it gives you a framework like these things
are OK, this is what's actually says in Scripture.
And then other things is like, well, maybe we can speculate,
but we can't know or, you know, yeah, yeah, it gives you some
(39:45):
framework for thinking. You kind of, Yeah.
No, it makes sense. So, All right.
Well, that's awesome. I think that pretty well wraps
up this. I I think we get the idea across
here. So obviously we can give more
examples, but I think that's gets it.
So this was spoke six of seven yes, episode 7 in our series on
(40:06):
why do Christians disagree. So hopefully you guys found some
value in this and can can continue to garner some tools
that will help in your personal Bible study.
That is the point of this. It's to give you some tools and
just like, Hey, this is these are good rules for personal
Bible study and if we all. Study our Bible with better
(40:26):
rules, we'll have better theology and in general, well,
hopefully that's disagreements. So yeah.
Or if we do have a disagreement,we'll have a a unified way of
not. So much on the major thing of.
Looking at the scriptures to be like, OK, let's figure this out
together. So all right, we're going to
wrap this up. We will be back with our next
episode on spoke #7. We'll see you guys later.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.