January 20, 2025 • 52 mins
Dr. Jodi Aman, renowned psychotherapist and TEDx speaker, joins Dr. Amy and Sandy on this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast to uncover the root causes behind the escalating anxiety epidemic among teenagers. It's a bold statement, but modern conveniences might be making things worse. Dr. Aman suggests that the reduction in problem-solving opportunities due to cultural shifts has led to increased negativity and entitlement among teens. She argues that chores, often seen as mundane, are vital in alleviating anxiety, instilling resilience, and combating negative thought patterns. By categorizing chores into tedious, challenging, and generous, we examine how each type plays a crucial role in developing essential life skills and when tying chores to allowances might be appropriate.
Anxiety, often misunderstood as mere fear, is redefined in our conversation as a spectrum of discomfort triggered by stress hormones. Dr. Aman challenges the misconception of anxiety as a chemical imbalance and talks about the stigma that idea creates. Our discussion also touches on the historical context of anxiety, examining how our biological instincts have evolved to manage stress.
In the final segment, we explore the power of community, activities, and genuine human connections in fostering social engagement and mental well-being. Whether through family involvement in communal activities or even community theater, these experiences are pivotal in building a sense of belonging. We also offer actionable tips to guide teenagers towards a path of self-acceptance and agency. To enhance your understanding further, we present a concise guide, accessible on the author's website, filled with practical advice for supporting the teens in your life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi, smart moms and dads.
We are so happy to have youjoin us for another episode of
the Brainy Moms podcast broughtto you today by LearningRx Brain
Training Centers.
I'm your host, dr Amy Moore.
I'm joined by my co-host, sandyZimalis, and Sandy and I are
excited to bring you aconversation with our guest, dr
Jodi Amen.
Dr Jodi is a psychotherapist, anauthor, tedx speaker and a
(00:24):
doctor of social work with 28years of experience in clinical
practice.
Dr Jodi helps her clients healfrom trauma, read the world and
reclaim self-acceptance and joy.
She's the creator of Compass,an emotional wellness curriculum
for middle and high schoolstudents to help reduce symptoms
of anxiety and depressionstudents to help reduce symptoms
(00:45):
of anxiety and depression.
Her talk show Ask Dr Jodi islive streamed weekly on her
YouTube channel At Dr Jodi,where she shares mental health
and relationship advice.
She's the author of severalbooks, including Anxiety I'm so
Done With you, a Teen's Guide toDitching Toxic Stress and
Hardwiring your brain forhappiness.
She's helped over 2 millionpeople understand and reverse
(01:08):
the current mental health crisis.
Let's welcome Dr Jodi Amon.
Hi, dr Jodi, hello, good to seeyou.
Good to see you too.
So I listened to your TED Talkthis morning.
I really liked your take onwhat is causing this rise right
(01:30):
in teen mental health problems,and actually I think you refer
to it as an epidemic Like why isthat anxiety rising?
And I love how you broke itdown into those three different
areas.
And I was super intrigued bythis idea of chores helping calm
anxiety.
Would you share this idea withus, because how easy would that
(01:56):
be to implement?
Dr. Jodi Aman (01:58):
Yeah, you know, when somebody has anxiety, when
your child has anxiety, you tryto take things off their plate.
You know you try to take thingsoff their plate.
You know you're kind of.
Our mentality is like ease them, let them relax a little bit,
but it's actuallycounterproductive because we're
really telling them you can'thandle stuff With the modern
conveniences.
With the rise of modernconveniences and with us having
(02:21):
less things to do, our brain hasdeveloped for two million years
to solve problems all day so wecould survive.
We don't need to do that asmuch anymore.
You know we don't need to solveproblems all day, but that
capability is still there andbecause that capability is still
there, we replace it Like ourmind is like we might not be
(02:42):
safe, find a problem, so it'sreplaced with negativity, unless
we're like creative and we'redoing something else.
That could be a chore too, butthat.
So with the decrease in ushaving to do all these things to
survive, we're actuallycreating all this mind space for
us to go into the negative, andso I could see that getting
(03:02):
worse and worse and worse andyou could see this generation
having less and less work ethicand some of that's good, because
our work ethic was kind of putonto us with the industrial
revolution to try to get us towork, except for it's like
there's this entitlement not tohave to.
You know that they're beingtaught.
It's not them, it's not theyoung people that are the
(03:25):
problem, it's culturally put onthem.
I think that's where thatmarketing piece comes in, is
where we have messagesconstantly accessible to us 24
hours a day.
These marketers could access usand telling us that we should
just get stuff, just becauseit's cool, we should just get
stuff.
So those two things combinedhaving less to do to survive,
(03:49):
being able to just go and getsome food out of our cupboard
and eat it instead of making itor whatever else we had to do to
contribute to our family wedon't have to do any of that
anymore, and so there's a lot ofspace.
It's almost like a luxuryproblem.
When people have more and moreluxury, they have this different
kind of anxiety.
(04:10):
If you have trauma and you havea lot of difficulty, you have
one kind of anxiety, but you areefforting and you're overcoming
it and you're buildingresilience.
If you have a lot of luxury andyou have that kind of anxiety,
it just grows, because the moreanxiety you have the more frozen
you are.
You know it's not a buildingresilience kind of anxiety.
(04:32):
So this is what we're facing,yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:36):
So do you think that we instinctively try to
fill that space Right?
Instinctively try to fill thatspace right when?
If we aren't, if we aren'thaving to run from the tiger in
the bush behind us anymore,right?
If we're not having to solvebig problems all day, every day
(04:58):
anymore, because we don't evenhave to remember phone numbers
anymore, right and so.
But do you think that weinstinctively fight against that
idea of just being, of justsitting in that space, of just
appreciating some downtime?
Do you think we-.
Dr. Jodi Aman (05:18):
I think when you say instinctually, I think
that's true.
But when you say weinstinctually try, that means
it's intentional or that we'redoing something.
I think that's true.
But when you say weinstinctually try, that means
it's intentional or that we'redoing something.
I think that happens reallysubconsciously, that when
there's no problem, our mind hasbeen trained to try to find one
.
So it's kind of happeningoutside of our awareness though,
(05:39):
because when we get theinformation, the mind's saying,
like when we hear those thoughtsor when we have awareness of
what those thoughts are, then weput meaning around those
thoughts.
So that's our participation init.
But first they come because ourmind's just going to do that on
its own.
And, yes, it also of coursedepends on our experiences in
(06:01):
life.
If we've had a lot of chaos inour life, then that's going to
come.
You know our amygdala is goingto work really harder to keep us
safe, you know, because it'shad so much experience of
unsafety and insecurity.
But when we do have thosethoughts, then we put meaning
around the thoughts, likesomething's wrong with me.
All I think is negative, I'mtired all the time.
(06:24):
Something's wrong with me, likeI'm lazy, why can't I do stuff?
And you get this like us versusthem mentality.
Everyone else is fine but me,because mental low self-esteem
is totally invisible.
We're all walking around withit, especially in Western
culture.
We're all walking around withlow self-esteem.
But when you look at people youcan't see that right away.
(06:46):
But you could see yourself, youcould feel yourself, you could
feel how bad you feel and youfeel like you're the only one.
And then you're like what'swrong?
Why do I have this problem?
It's hard to separate that fromour sense of worth.
If we feel we're not happy, wejust correlate it and connect it
with our sense of worth, whichobviously makes us feel worse,
(07:08):
and then it kind of snowballs.
Sandy Zamalis (07:11):
So that must be why you know the chore piece is
really a key piece for you,because it helps instill that
pride and accomplishment, right?
So your book is really gearedtowards teens.
It's not geared towards parents.
So how do you encourage kids to?
Yeah, anxiety?
I'm so done with you.
I love the title of it as well.
(07:32):
A listener, she held up thebook, so if you're watching
you'll see it.
But that is the title of herbook.
She's written it with teens inmind, so it's written to them.
And because we want them tohave that value of
accomplishment, how do youencourage them to take on
problems or challenges?
Dr. Jodi Aman (07:53):
That is a great question because the book
actually many parents andeducators and counselors are
reading the book too becausethey want to know how to help.
But I also have.
Let me just do another plugAlso, if you're watching the
video, you can see this.
I also have another download,free download on my website.
That's a Generation Z MentalHealth Survival Guide and it
explains that in this I give alot of activities that you could
(08:17):
do in the home and in theclassroom to build some of these
skills up, to counter, todecrease symptoms of anxiety and
depression by doing theseactivities.
So we really want to engage increative things.
We want to engage in problemsolving, but like not problem
solving like a problem, butcreative problem solving.
If we're going to make thiswooden box, what kind of hinges
(08:41):
do we want on it?
Do we want the hinges hidden?
Do we want them on the outside?
Are we going to paint it?
Is it going to be big?
Is it going to be a flat lid?
How are people going to open it?
How do we want to decorate it?
Is it functional or is itpretty?
Those decision-making, thatkind of problem-solving, is
really good for building up andstimulating the prefrontal
cortex.
And when we build up andstimulate that prefrontal cortex
(09:03):
then it has a lot more powerover the anxiety.
Like your anxiety goes down themore you build up and stimulate
your prefrontal cortex.
So people who are engaged increative activity are engaged in
problem solving, challengingthemselves, learning something
new, doing chores.
It helps them in several ways.
(09:23):
One, yes, it builds confidence,but and it does it biologically
, like neurologically, it helps.
But also it's like we seeourself as skilled.
Right now, the youngergeneration, and I have to say
adults too, because we'regetting the same messages that
they're getting right we seeourself as unable, we see
ourself as unadaptable, we thinkthat we can't handle stuff we
(09:45):
don.
We see ourself as unable, wesee ourself as unadaptable, we
think that we can't handle stuff.
We don't see ourself as skilled.
We live in this deficitmentality and we're just seeing
all the things that we can't do,all things we haven't gotten to
yet.
You know, we just have thisreally negative view of ourself.
And so if you engage in things,then you'd start to relate to
yourself and know yourself assomeone who has skills.
You have skills, everybody hasskills, because the skills came
(10:13):
even from evolution.
Right, our skills andadaptability are there for
everybody already, and so wehave them.
And obviously nobody could getto the age they are If you're 13
, if you're 15, if you're 17, ifyou had no skills, you wouldn't
be here.
So we know that they have themand I think that's a message us
adults have to give is, like youhave skills, we're going to
show you that you have them.
I do give tips on how to dothat too.
(10:33):
So that's jodiaymondcom slashguide.
Jodiaymondcom slash guide Getthe Generation Z Mental Health
Resource Guide.
Very comprehensive download foryou.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:47):
Yeah, I like that .
So you actually break downchores into three different
types, right?
So the tedious ones that nobodyever wants to do, right, taking
out the trash, vacuuming thingslike that.
I think what you were talkingabout a second ago is what you
would call a challenging chore,right, like we have to fix this
or build this or createsomething.
(11:08):
Yeah, make something, somethingthat requires those critical
thinking skills.
Dr. Jodi Aman (11:12):
Sure, let me review all three of those.
So there's three kinds ofchores that I delineated in my
TEDx Wilmington talk, and onewas tedious chores, and I'm
going to tell you the importanceof those.
And then one's challengingchores, and then the last one's
generous chores.
So the first one, tedious it'sbecause you know, our brain has
two functions One is to surviveand thrive, and the other is to
(11:34):
conserve calories, because forso long in our evolution we
didn't have access to food.
We had to find our own food orhunt our own food, and so we
really wanted to conservecalories.
It was very important forsurvival.
We don't need to do thatanymore, but that capability is
there.
So when we're faced with tasks,our mind is like is this for
(11:55):
survival?
No, is it for pleasure orthriving?
No, and it puts this biologicalresistance to try to keep us
safe and keep us alive.
But we don't need that anymore.
But what happens is young peopleand people my age, all ages
right are feeling thatresistance and saying
something's wrong.
I don't understand why.
(12:16):
I don't want to do this.
They feel that resistance andit becomes.
We put a lot of meaning aroundit.
Something's wrong with us orwhy am I so tired all the time?
Why am I so tired all the time?
And then you probably hearyoung people say that.
Probably all of you are hearingyoung people say that I'm so
tired, I'm so tired.
That's this biologicalresistance that comes up.
We could definitely override itand if we continuously do these
(12:39):
more tedious chores, like wesweep every day, it's not so
hard.
If we've never sweep, theynever sweep.
And you ask your kids to sweep,it is a song and a dance, right
, it is.
So there's so much resistance.
And when, when they start theresistance, then they really
feel like you know you'reoppressing them by asking them
to do this and they're reallyrebelling.
(13:00):
You know so it builds upbecause you, they make meaning
around it and they're like thisisn't fair.
You know so it builds upbecause they make meaning around
it.
They're like this isn't fair.
You know all of that comes out.
So we don't understand thisnatural resistance that we have
to doing chores and if we didthings every day, some of you
have kids who you have them dothe same thing every day and
(13:20):
they don't complain as much,they just get it done.
But if they haven't done it in areally long time and they do it
it's a problem.
That's because if they'recontinuously doing these tedious
chores, they're integrated.
They know it's easy that whenthe resistance comes up they're
like I'm better off getting onthe other side of it, right?
They see that it's thriving tobe on the other side of it
(13:42):
because it's got to be done,even if you don't care about it.
It's got to be done toparticipate in the family,
whatever right.
So we want them to continuouslydo tedious chores.
We want kids to do hard things.
You know we need to do hardthings.
So that gets to the second one,the challenge.
We want to do hard things.
I want to stop.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:01):
Yeah, I have a question about that.
Great, I want to stop.
Yeah, I have a question aboutthat.
So I'm sitting here thinking,okay, so that creates like these
automatic behaviors right, thismuscle memory for okay, we're
done with dinner, it's time todo the dishes.
Right, Like so.
It is a routine, it's justsomething that you have to do,
so it makes it a little biteasier because you're just used
to doing it.
(14:21):
So if we take that idea and Ithink about how many parents
alternate chores with their kidsright so like.
Today it's, you know,Christopher's day to do to sweep
, and right, Like so theyalternate them but if we apply
(14:42):
that idea, then I would thinkmaybe you should do them for a
month at a time before youswitch.
Dr. Jodi Aman (14:48):
Or I don't know, maybe it depends.
Are you switching and the otherone has something else?
Or if there's three kids andthree little jobs and they
rotate, that would be okay.
That's often enough.
But you know, if they have asports right, so they're in a
sport, so for the two monthsthey're at sports practice, so
they don't do any chores aroundthe house.
This is what we do as parents.
(15:09):
We don't give them the choresduring that time and then the
sports season ended and then youhave them do the chores.
It's different.
But when they see theirsiblings do it and it's part of
the routine, if it's every threedays or something, that would
(15:29):
be okay.
That's frequent enough.
But they might have somethingelse during that time because
they have to make their bedevery day or something like that
would be fine, that's fine,great, yeah, so challenging.
Challenging is our mind loves tobe challenged, right?
It's like our soul wants to bechallenged because it's
constantly looking for how tosurvive, like how to survive
better, how to thrive better,and so we have this drive for
(15:51):
challenge and it lights us up.
We don't want a bad challenge,obviously, but we're going to
have some, and so if we'reconstantly challenging ourself
in smaller ways.
The bigger ones are going to bea lot easier to handle.
You're going to have a lot ofskills connecting with people.
You're going to have skills inknowing where to find help, time
management all of those thingsthat really help us help life be
(16:13):
better.
Right, if you have somechallenging chores, or kids have
some challenging chores, it'shelpful.
It sparks us.
It creates the dopamine when weget it.
It builds our confidence inourself that we can figure
something out that's hard.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:31):
Yeah, that sense of accomplishment, Exactly, and
that you're bringing value tosomething, yeah, right.
Dr. Jodi Aman (16:37):
There's a sense of purpose as well.
You see yourself as skilled.
You build that confidence up.
Usually with challenging choresthere's other people involved
not always, but sometimes and sothere's a bonding that's
happening which is veryimportant for our well-being.
And then the last one Idelineated was generous chores,
because I like when kids dothings for other people.
If you're helping somebody orvolunteering in the neighborhood
(17:00):
or with the church or something, or just with the grandparents,
helping other people andgetting that integrated into
their life, that we do stuff andwe help other people, that's
also really good for a sense ofpurpose.
It's also really good forrelationships, but it teaches
them how to be, you know, civil,civic-minded, and we need more
(17:20):
civic mind.
I think we really lost a lot ofcivic mindedness in this world
in this generation.
So we really, you know, withpeople on their phones or not in
person, and so we lost a lot ofthat and right now we need to
get that back.
Dr. Amy Moore (17:35):
I would think that would build empathy as well
.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course,of course, yeah, and I mean an
empathy is one of the lastskills that we develop between
the amygdala and the prefrontalcortex, and so to start
nurturing that early on and kindof create that schema of
empathy early on, I think what aneat way to do that too.
(17:58):
I mean you're accomplishingmultiple things at one time.
Dr. Jodi Aman (18:01):
Exactly exactly.
Yeah, empathy is teachable andwe have to teach it.
From age two you could startteaching empathy.
Sandy Zamalis (18:13):
Yeah, obviously it goes much smoother when it's
been your family culture fromthe beginning, right?
So how?
How would you encourage aparent who, if they're listening
to our podcast today andwanting to try to implement,
they're seeing what you'resaying, that they're
understanding the argument andthey really want to try to
implement this in their home,but it has not been the norm in
(18:35):
their home and their kids areolder.
There's going to be somepushback.
How do you recommend havingthat conversation with your
family to make a change likethat, where you're wanting to
encourage them to practicechallenges at home?
Dr. Jodi Aman (18:51):
Yeah, I think somehow make it fun.
Make it little, littlechallenges at first, smaller
chores at first, chores thatmaybe you all do together.
So if it's like just doing thedriveway or the walkway, but
you're all doing it together,it's really quick.
Then you have so much gratitude.
It makes it so much easier.
That wasn't so bad, was it?
(19:12):
Oh, I'm so glad you helped withit because that went so fast.
Whatever, something little and apositive experience, and then
you could gradually get bigger.
You could also haveconversations.
This might be hard, but this isreally good for all of us or I
need it because of this or thatand the other thing.
And then stay consistent, knowthat there'll be pushback and
(19:37):
don't take it personally.
That's what's so hard.
As parents, we take all thatpersonally, we think we've done
something wrong or we look at oh, if I did this the whole time,
they wouldn't be doing this.
But it's not necessarilyhelpful to go down that path.
You did it because there wasother things going on, maybe a
divorce or very busy, or youwere taking care of your parents
or something like that, and itwas just easier to do things
(19:58):
yourself instead of fightingwith them all the time.
Don't blame yourself.
It happens, it happens.
It's so easy to happen with allof the rapidness of things and
the screens and pressure on us.
So don't beat yourself up andjust like be gentle.
(20:22):
Be gentle with yourself and begentle with them.
Start small, try to make it fun.
Sandy Zamalis (20:26):
I like that incorporation from that
relational aspect too, of youknow doing something together or
maybe starting off with aproject that you do as a family.
My kids will call me out, youlearn hard things.
So you're going to, you know,clean out.
Dr. Jodi Aman (20:41):
Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (20:42):
Build that wall.
Dr. Jodi Aman (20:44):
We yeah.
So I always have like I alwaysthought let's put music on and
clean.
And they just were like youthink that music helps?
You know they'll do whateverthey can to get out of it.
So music doesn't help make itfun.
I'm like yes, it does.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:03):
My mom used to tell me that chores are required
because that means you are acontributing member of the
family, and so it was anon-negotiable kind of
conversation, right?
That's what it means to be acontributing member of the
family.
And so it was a non-negotiablekind of conversation, right?
That's what it means to be acontributing member of the
family.
And it drove me crazy, right,when she would say those words.
(21:23):
But I catch myself thinkingthat at the same time, like why
am I the only one doing this?
Right Now?
My kids I'm a brand new emptynester.
My youngest just left forcollege last week but I would
catch myself thinking that, okay, why are they not being
contributing members of thefamily?
Dr. Jodi Aman (21:44):
Because you have to teach them to be.
They're not going to do itright.
You know parenting, we're thefrontal lobe.
We're like the frontal lobe forour kids for a long time.
They're not developing until 25.
And so when their brain is like, is this for survival and
thriving, or should I conservecalories?
They're going to get resistanceand we have to override,
because we know doing the thingsthat we want them to do whether
(22:06):
it's chores or getting thatessay done or whatever is for
their thriving right there'sresults that they want or that
are positive for them in theirlife.
But it's hard to relate it tothis essay, and so we as parents
have to be that prefrontal lobefor them and say, yes, you have
to get it done, it'll feel goodto get on the other side.
(22:28):
Whatever trick you could say, Iknow you don't want to do it,
you know your brain.
I tell people, I tell youngpeople, you know your brain is
trying to conserve calories, butyou're fine, you could override
it.
Our mammalian brain couldoverride that and say I'm safe,
I can do it, I have enough food.
So once I override it, insteadof being like something's wrong,
(22:52):
somebody's forcing me and I gotto protest, they could override
it with their brain and makeslife a lot easier.
So you have to train them to dothat slowly.
But yeah, I mean they get asense of belonging.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:05):
That is true, yeah, what do you think about
connecting chores with allowance, for example?
We don't work for free for themost part in the adult world,
right, typically our careers.
Dr. Jodi Aman (23:24):
But we do run the house.
We do our survival skills, allof our personal.
You know, we pay our bills.
No one pays us to pay our bills.
There is a lot of those thingsthat we do do we have to, you
know, organize somebody'sbirthday party or something.
No one pays us for those things.
Yeah, some of it are our choice.
(23:45):
It's our choice, except forthere's results that we do want
from them.
If our fridge is broken, we gotto get it fixed, or we're not
going to have a fridge right.
So there is a lot of thingsthat we do that aren't so some.
You know, I think that parentscould make their own decisions
about this, what they want to do.
So there might be chores thateveryone has to do.
(24:06):
And then there's these extrathings that they could earn
money for if they want to, andthat, I think, is maybe the best
of both worlds that everybodyhelps with the dishes, or helps
with the dinner, sets the table,or makes their bed or whatever,
or laundry when they get oldenough.
But in addition, if they wantmoney, they could weed the
(24:28):
garden or those kind of thingsthat maybe are kind of above and
beyond those daily tasks thatwe have to do every day just to
run the house.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:36):
I really like that explanation because it
answers an argument, right yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (24:43):
They need to know why.
Yeah, Really, and we have theanswers you know.
So I think that's what'simportant.
If they really understand, it'sharder to argue against it.
Sandy Zamalis (24:54):
Yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (24:55):
They will, they will though.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:57):
Well, absolutely Right.
Like, if there's something tochallenge, they will challenge
it.
Dr. Jodi Aman (25:02):
Yeah, that's what they're developmentally.
That's exactly what they'resupposed to be doing, so.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:06):
For sure.
OK, I want to switch gears alittle bit and talk about some
concepts from your book thatwere intriguing, and I just
loved how you explained them.
And so the book is aboutanxiety.
Right and okay, these are thesteps that, as a teenager, you
get to take to minimize theanxiety that you're experiencing
(25:30):
, and so I love that you talkabout how there's this
misconception that anxiety isjust fear.
Right, that it's just thiseither this irrational fear or
this nervousness, but youactually say that anxiety is
anything that makes you bothered.
(25:51):
I really liked that word.
So it's not just fear, but itcould be frustration, or being
annoyed, or being sad, or upset,or confused.
I don't know what to do next.
And so talk a little bit abouthow anxiety is not always what
we say it is.
Dr. Jodi Aman (26:11):
Well, there's a lot of words for anxiety, but
this is what helps youunderstand when we're upset,
when we're angry, when we'renervous, when we're anxious,
when things are weird, whenwe're confused, the hormone is
the same.
It's all adrenaline or cortisol.
And adrenaline and cortisolworks in the body very similar
ways.
They're stress hormones and socortisol is a little bit longer
(26:33):
lasting and adrenaline is likeimmediate up and down.
So when we have any of theseupset feelings, there's not
different hormones for everyfeeling.
It's the same hormone, it's alladrenaline.
And if you think that it's alladrenaline, you realize that
adrenaline comes when you'rebothered, when you're afraid,
(26:54):
whatever.
That adrenaline comes whenyou're bothered, when you're
afraid, whatever you know.
But there's a originally, whenwe were evolving.
You know we have to keep goingback to the brain because this
helps people understand.
We need to take the mystery outof anxiety, and then people are
like oh, because the mystery iswhat perpetuates it in a big
way.
Right?
So originally, if somebodylooked at us weird, we could be
(27:19):
thrown out of the community andthat would mean death.
You know in hunter-gatherertimes, like we needed a
community.
We couldn't survive on our ownas humans.
And so if you weren't sureabout something.
Yes, you did need theadrenaline, so our brain was
developed to release adrenalineat those times.
If you got angry, it meantsomeone could beat you up or
hurt you or whatever.
(27:40):
So of course, the adrenaline'sgoing to come because you need
to have that superhuman strengthright.
The whole point of adrenalineis to call your attention and
decide to act to survive, toflee or fight or freeze.
If that's the last resort, wefreeze, but any time we're
bothered at all could have meantrisk.
(28:01):
It doesn't always mean risk,but it could, and so our bodies
needed that hormone to bereleased.
So we were prepared in case itmeant danger, in case it did.
So yes, I used to think ofanxiety as just like fear when
you're afraid.
But I understand that theadrenaline is all these things,
(28:21):
but I like to define anxiety asthe leftover fear response when
you're not in danger.
So the leftover sympatheticnervous system, the leftover
symptoms of adrenaline, thefeelings that adrenaline brings
to your body mentally,physically, when you're not in
danger.
When you are in danger, you'redoing something to survive,
you're taking action and you'rerunning back to the village
(28:45):
maybe.
And when you get to the villageyou're like huffing and puffing
, like, oh my gosh, guess whathappened.
The big animal and I survived.
And everyone's like thankgoodness you survived.
They're hugging you right.
You're decompressing all ofthat right.
Your adrenaline's going downand being processed in this
retelling of what happened andthe thankfulness of surviving.
(29:05):
We don't have that kind of thingright now.
We have the fear response andit comes to our prefrontal
cortex and it's like look around, if there's danger, tell me
what to do.
And the prefrontal cortex saysI don't see anything, but I feel
it.
Keep pumping the hormonesbecause I feel it.
That's not how it's supposed towork, but that's how it works
nowadays.
So, yeah, so it's important forus to understand that we have
(29:30):
this adrenaline.
It's usually we're safe, but weput meaning around that feeling
that we might not be, and so itperpetuates.
That's why I like to call itthe leftover fear response when
you're not in danger, because Idon't want people.
People are like sometimesanxiety is good, it tells you to
wear a helmet.
Well, that's common sense.
Let's call it somethingpositive.
(29:51):
So then, because people arelike you need some anxiety, it
protects me and I wanted toseparate that out, because it's
hard to get rid of anxiety if itprotects you.
But if we understood anxiety tobe something that you do not
need and there's smartness orcommon sense or skills that you
have that help you survive, andwe divide it up like that, it
(30:12):
really helps people.
Let it go if they need to, ifthey want to, and people want to
because it's awful.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:19):
Sure, and I love how you know you point out that
when we put meaning to ourthoughts, right then, when we
attach feelings to that thoughtthat oh, I'm in danger, right,
that's when we perpetuate theanxiety, right, Like it's our
relationship with language.
So this is the analogy that Iuse in counseling.
(30:44):
It's like you know how, aswomen, a lot of us have this
emotional response to the numberon the scale.
When we step on it, that's howmuch we weigh.
Well, that's just ourrelationship with gravity.
And so if we think about thenumber on the scale as just this
metric that defines ourrelationship with gravity, the
same way we can think about how,when we language is just words,
(31:07):
it's just words.
And so when those thoughts popin, we're the ones that say
that's a big deal, that's athought I should be upset about
that thought.
Right, it's really justlanguage.
Dr. Jodi Aman (31:19):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Sandy Zamalis (31:22):
That's such a great way to explain it and, dr
Jodi, in your book you even talkabout how the use of the term
chemical imbalance has reallykind of skewed our understanding
of this topic.
So let's dive in there a littlebit, because I do think that is
a misnomer.
It is causing us to have poorconversations about this,
(31:43):
because we think of it assomething is out of balance or
out of whack.
Dr. Jodi Aman (31:47):
Yeah, we think about something's wrong with us,
and I think practitionerscontinue to use this metaphor or
this way of thinking about itbecause they think it decreases
stigma.
You know, they think thatpeople blame themselves less if
they think of it as a chemicalimbalance, and so their
intentions are good, except forit does not actually work like
that.
It makes people think thatthey're different.
(32:09):
Some people are balanced, butI'm not balanced.
Also, using the word chemical,I mean this is a pharmaceutical
marketing tactic.
To use the word chemicalinstead of hormone.
Hormone doesn't sound asthreatening.
Chemicals sound morethreatening, and so that's why
that term is being used.
We're just talking abouthormones.
Adrenaline goes up and down allday.
Serotonin could go up and downall day and we could actually
(32:31):
affect it.
We could actually do meditationand make our serotonin come up
and go down it.
We could actually do meditationand make our serotonin come up
and go down, and so I'm notagainst medicine.
I think it's a tool and it savespeople's lives, but the
marketing of it makes us thinkabout these problems in a way
that really stall us in order tomake us dependent on them, but
(32:53):
really stall us from thinkingthat we could get better, that
it's a regular human response toour world Right.
Anxiety, depression, lack ofmotivation, feeling stuck,
feeling resistance, feelingangry these are responses to our
context.
They're not mental illnesses,and so when we understand it
(33:15):
that way and we understand wherethey're coming from, then we
could do something about it.
We could change thatrelationship with gravity not
with gravity, but with all ofthese problems, right.
So the chemical imbalance, it'sconstantly changing.
Our hormones are changing everyminute, so there's never a
(33:35):
balance.
Actually we don't need tostrive for that.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:39):
Well, and you mentioned in your book, it's not
like you can put the amount ofserotonin in your brain is on
this side of the scale, whichmakes it imbalanced.
I mean you can't measureserotonin that way.
Dr. Jodi Aman (33:57):
Right, it's not even a real metaphor.
I mean we yeah like we don'tknow how much serotonin we have
and what it is if we don't, ifwe're depressed, if that is
actually less like we're notmeasuring it.
You know, we're not.
It's not a blood test and we'resaying your chemicals are
imbalanced.
We don't have that capability.
People are just going from whatyour symptoms are and saying
you might, it's, it's a metaphor, it's not real.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:19):
Well, and it's a big one, it's a dangerous one,
it's one that's common, thatdrives the thinking that, okay,
if I have depression, then Ineed something to increase the
serotonin in my brain becauseI'm chemically imbalanced.
Dr. Jodi Aman (34:34):
Yeah, but we're having, I think with which
that's you're bringing up a goodpoint dopamine.
You know we're reallyinterrupting your dopamine cycle
with our screens and is thatwhat you're going to say next?
You know we're reallyinterrupting that.
Yeah, we're not measuring itand it's not balanced or not
balanced, but we definitely arestruggling with being
disinterested in stuff, notcaring about things and not
(34:58):
being interested in stuff, notgetting excited about anything.
You know, when somebody beforeCOVID.
It's even worse now becauseeven in the last five years our
screen time skyrocketed.
It was bad before COVID butit's been even worse since
because there's more apps,there's more stuff to do.
It's just constant, but it'sinterrupting our dopamine cycle,
(35:19):
so we're seeing the problemseven more.
I forgot what I was going tosay about it, but it's like oh,
I know before that when somebodycame into my office and was
like I don't know, I don'treally care if I get better.
I don't think I will get better, but I don't really care.
I know that they're isolated.
I know that that's a dopamineissue.
That's not a depression issue.
(35:41):
It's a symptom of them beingisolated.
They're so isolated that theirdopamine hasn't hit.
They haven't had dopamine in along time they haven't done
anything interesting.
They're probably sleeping allday and up alone all night and
this is why they're notinterested in anything.
It's a dopamine issue.
But people look at that and say, well, you're severely
depressed.
Yes, it causes the depression.
(36:04):
It's not the depression thatcauses that, it's the isolation
or the dopamine that causes that.
And now we're seeing it withthe screen time interrupting our
dopamine cycle.
We're seeing it even thoughpeople aren't isolated, but also
they're isolated.
Mm-hmm Screen.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:20):
Yeah Right, you can look at a family and they're
all on their screens as opposedto being connected, so they are
isolating themselves, even ifyou're in proximity to another
person.
Exactly.
Sandy Zamalis (36:32):
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Dr. Amy Moore (37:27):
So, speaking of connectedness, you do talk about
that and why teens needconnectedness, and you even give
some tips on how we canincrease that.
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
Dr. Jodi Aman (37:53):
for 2025 in my platform is telling people to
get together in person.
That's the best thing that youcan do is get together in person
, but have conversations withyoung people.
If you have consistentconversations with young people,
they're going to start to tellyou more and more about their
life, obviously, if thoseinteractions are positive.
But for teachers, have a spacewhere you could tell kids.
They could come talk to you.
You know, parents, if you haveplaces where you're talking to
(38:16):
your kids about concepts of theworld or their own things or
their friends, those kind ofthings build rapport and build
bonding and help them feelconnected.
They want to belong tosomething.
So this goes the same as doing atour.
Get them involved in a club,get them involved in doing
something.
This usually is a familyculture.
If a parent goes to work andcomes home and watches TV all
(38:38):
night and doesn't do anything,usually the kids aren't
participating in stuff.
It's part of the culture of afamily.
If the parents are doing thisand that and the other thing,
they're very involved, they havea lot of friends then the kids
are doing that too, becausethat's part of the family
culture.
So you have to model that.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:54):
So you're showing this is what we value.
Dr. Jodi Aman (38:57):
Yes, but you're also making it.
You're normalizing being withpeople.
You're normalizing doing things.
You're normalizing volunteering.
You know for the club and youknow helping with the logistics.
You know, yeah, if you belongto a club, you have a sense of
belonging, but there's also likean event, and so you're
bringing cookies, or you knowyou're doing something also, so
(39:18):
there's like the work, butthere's a sense of belonging.
That's so important, thatconnectedness, and that's what
your mom was saying when she wassaying you're participating in
a family.
You know, there's a sense ofbelonging in that.
So when kids who do tours, theyhave a higher sense of
belonging in the family systemas well.
Sandy Zamalis (39:38):
So I think that's why video gaming anymore is so
addictive for our boys, becauseit is community building, it is
connection building for them,along with all of the other
pieces that come with videogaming.
So with that in mind, becausethat connection piece is really
key, do you encourage teens to?
(39:59):
You know, find a sport, try asport, get into?
You know, clubs are hard tofind other than in school, right
In colleges, you know, and thenas adults we struggle to find
these communities.
So, in a world that's so muchmore digital than it is in
person, how do we encourage themto get out and make those
(40:21):
connections?
Dr. Amy Moore (40:22):
And recognize that a large portion of our
audience are homeschool parents.
Dr. Jodi Aman (40:27):
Yeah, well, a lot of homeschool parents I know
they do have activities withother homeschooling families and
so they do once or twice a weekthey're doing an activity or a
field trip or something, a danceclass or something with other
people, or robotics class,something.
There's classes in thecommunity.
(40:49):
There's sports that are clubsports.
There's things that are atschool.
There's things that we don'teven know about.
I had a client I wasencouraging, or she was really
isolated, and I was like fine,even sit and knit, but she found
bells.
You know those big bells Churchbells and bells.
Or a choir For adults.
Maybe we need to just join achoir and once a week you're
(41:14):
with a choir, like for adults.
Like maybe we need to just joina choir and once a week you're
with a choir and then you singon the weekend, or something
like that.
There are things, actually.
You know, If you do belong to achurch, you might volunteer for
the welcoming committee, ormight volunteer for one of the
missions that you know help inhospice, or you know volunteer
at the hospice center near you.
There are unlimited things thatyou could do.
Um, yeah and it, and we can'tthink of them and so we kind of
(41:39):
think there isn't any, but thereare and these are needed.
Get, get involved in your localtheater yeah, that's always
stuff to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:49):
That was what I did my whole childhood.
Sandy Zamalis (41:51):
Yeah, me too, yeah well, there's always ways,
like all of the things you'vetalked about today are included
in community theater, which isreally funny because, like you
know, there are chores involvedin being in theater.
If you don't make the cast, youknow there's set design.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:08):
There's so much other things that you can do to
build skill and grow and it'sthat camaraderie that you yeah,
homeschool parents should lookinto something like that, some
kind of a theater, because youcould do tech if they don't want
to perform.
There's other jobs there, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (42:26):
Lighting so many skills, costumes.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (42:30):
For sure yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:31):
And great stuff that'll help you in life too.
So I'm on a board in my localchildren's theater.
So my daughter grew up intheater and still is an actress,
so I'm a theater mom.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:44):
Yeah, I take so much pride in telling people
that I was a child actressbecause I spent my entire
childhood on stage, and so itwas the way I connected with
(43:05):
others.
It was the way that I felt likeI brought value to the world.
Dr. Jodi Aman (43:06):
Yeah, we need that right.
We need entertainment to getthrough our hard times.
Think about time immemorial.
There was always someperformance, I don't know.
Always in human history therewas some kind of a ceremony
performance and then it turnedinto more of a play and you know
, I mean just like forever, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (43:27):
Before.
I know we're getting late inour talk and I want to make sure
we talk about it because thisparticular issue is fascinating
to me.
But you have a stance on scarymovies.
Let's talk about that assomeone who is perpetually
fearful of scary movies Me too.
Why are they important for ourteens?
Dr. Jodi Aman (43:47):
I think that everyone's a little bit
different.
So you're saying this, andrew,because I had an episode of my
live show on Monday nights mydaughter's on with me sometimes
and we did an episode on scarymovies.
But really we started to talkabout how stories and how
performances really help us heal, have the potential to help us
(44:09):
heal, and so if you have anxiety, some people with anxiety love
scary movies.
Some people with anxiety won'twatch scary movies.
So it depends on the person.
Some people who've experiencedtrauma like scary movies because
it seems like a way they couldrelease some of the tension that
they feel or some of the things, because they could relate to
the characters.
So it doesn't have to be ahorror movie.
(44:30):
It could be a emotionally sadmovie or something like that.
There's a catharsis thathappens, that we're able to
process some of our history andour self via the movie.
So if it's anxiety over someonekilling us, some of that gets
processed during the movie.
Then for the other person thatcould be stimulating.
(44:52):
You know someone like me.
I watch a movie like that andthen I'm scared.
I'm scared or more scared, butsome people it was relieving
them.
So interesting how anxietyaffects people in completely
different ways and I think partof that episode was
acknowledging that.
You know, stories in generalhave the potential to heal, but
(45:13):
people could.
In terms of scary movies,people do respond to them
differently.
Sandy Zamalis (45:17):
But my kids think they're hilarious.
Dr. Jodi Aman (45:20):
I know I wish I felt like that.
I do not.
Yet I'd be like, no, I'm notwatching that.
But they, you know, they justthey know it's fiction right, so
they just, yeah, they'relooking for all the errors they
they're.
Sandy Zamalis (45:31):
They are totally watching it with an eye of um.
I mean, that's good too yeah,trying to catch the mistakes
that were made, like, if youthink about it, that's problem
solving.
Dr. Jodi Aman (45:42):
Yeah, right, so they're.
They're, they're in thecritique of the movie.
I also like learning conceptsthrough it's.
You know, we're all watching tvand we're all watching things
together.
But thinking about empathy whenyou're talking about the show
afterwards and thinking aboutthe characters or why they
decide to do what they did, whydid they make this?
Why did they decide thenegative thing?
(46:02):
Why did they decide thepositive thing at the end, you
know, talking about that becausethere's a distance, right,
they're not emotionally involvedthat because there's a distance
, right, they're not emotionallyinvolved they could develop
their concepts through that.
Seeing that from that distance,that's going to help them in
their life.
Yeah, so I love critiquingshows afterwards.
(46:24):
My daughter had a friend thatcame to the movies with us and
she was like flabbergastedbecause on the way home we're
like analyzing this movie andwe're trying all the things and
all the parts and her familydidn't do that, you know, and
she loved it.
It was so stimulating to likethink about not only the
characters but like, yeah, ifthere's mistakes in there or
(46:46):
holes in the plot, and all ofthat, we love to analyze that
all because it like stimulatesthe mind, it gets us, it's
bonding and it gets us thinkingabout stuff.
We want to teach our kids howto read the world.
You know how to understanddifferent things.
Sandy Zamalis (47:01):
You know my daughter and I were just having
this conversation just last week.
Actually she, she's moving.
She lives in Austin right nowand she's moving back to
Virginia and when Wicked cameout I was like, oh, you need to
go see Wicked because she washaving a hard time just at work
and just a lot of other things.
I'm like you need to go.
(47:21):
She loves movies anyway, so Ididn't take much prodding, but
she has been addicted to thatmovie since she went to see it.
I think she's seen it likethree or four times.
So good, they did a great jobthey did.
And she's listened to the musiclike on repeat, over and over
and over.
And I asked her, you know, kindof in line with what you were
(47:43):
saying, I asked her why she wasjust feeling such kinship with
this movie and she was just likeit's just all of it.
It's the being misunderstoodand being alone and you know
friendships and like becauseshe's getting ready to move the
friendship pieces.
So she's like it's just, itfeels like it encapsulates my
whole life right now.
(48:04):
Yeah, you see the developmentof the characters.
Dr. Jodi Aman (48:07):
Yeah, no way that we.
You know, sometimes things areso fast we don't see that
development.
But they really develop becausethey have the ability to do it
through song.
We did an episode on that too,lily and I did an episode on the
.
Wicked.
Yeah, it was really fun.
We watched the movie and thenwe then we talked about all
those themes around friendshipand how you know at first like
(48:27):
you're afraid and you don't wantto associate, and then you know
when you get, when you you seethe what's right and those kinds
of things and being brave andlots of good things in there.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:40):
Have you read the book?
Yes, yeah, I mean, the book isso much richer.
I think the cinematography inthat movie was phenomenal, and I
of course saw the stageproduction too.
Dr. Jodi Aman (49:16):
The choreography in that movie was phenomenal,
and I, of course, saw the stageproduction too.
But the book you really see theangst, you really get into the
angst of the characters, andI've always been fascinated by
what makes someone evil.
We're typically not born thatway and so you really build
empathy for the wicked witch ofthe West when you read the book.
Exactly, exactly, so yeah,that's really great.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:26):
It's really great .
I think they did such a greatjob.
Sandy Zamalis (49:27):
Can't wait to the second one, I know right.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:28):
I did not realize the movie was just the first
half, so at the end, when itstopped, I went what?
Sandy Zamalis (49:37):
What Intermission my daughter's mad at me that I
haven't dug deeper to figure outwhat happens next, because I
don't know I'm going to watch iton stage somewhere, oh it's so
good, she's just got to find itand watch it on stage we tried
to go.
I actually had tickets to go.
I bought tickets for my mom andthen my husband and I were
(49:58):
going to take my mom for herbirthday and then COVID hit.
So wah, wah, All right.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:05):
So Dr Jodi how can our listeners find more of
you?
How can they work with you?
Dr. Jodi Aman (50:12):
How can they work with you?
How can they reach you?
Tell us where you are?
My website is JodiAmancomJ-O-D-I-A-M-A-Ncom.
You go, slash and live hearabout my live show.
It's Monday nights at 8 pm.
I have a call-in guest who I dolive coaching right on the show
, live counseling, so you canfind my books on there, hundreds
of videos.
I've done hundreds of videosfor over 10 years and so you can
(50:35):
find my books on there.
And the guide.
Get the guide.
You know, get that guide anddownload it and read it.
You could read it in like 20minutes and get so much
information about how to helpthe young people in your life.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:47):
Yeah, I loved it and it was so organized, and
each area that you talked aboutabout mattering, about agency
all of that was so clearlydelineated and with actionable
tips.
That's what we really love tooffer our listeners is
actionable tips, and so,listeners, you get it instantly
when you go to her website todownload it.
(51:10):
You don't have to wait.
Yeah, all right.
Well, we are out of time, so weneed to say goodbye to
everybody.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you would rather see ourfaces, you can find us on
YouTube at the Brainy Moms.
We would love it if you wouldleave us a five-star rating and
(51:31):
review on Apple Podcasts if youthink we're awesome.
But that is all the smart stuffthat we have for you today.
We hope you feel a little bitsmarter.
Catch you next time.
Hi, smart moms and dads.
We are so happy to have youjoin us for another episode of
the Brainy Moms podcast broughtto you today by LearningRx Brain
Training Centers.
I'm your host, dr Amy Moore.
I'm joined by my co-host, sandyZimalis, and Sandy and I are
excited to bring you aconversation with our guest, dr
Jodi Amen.
Dr Jodi is a psychotherapist, anauthor, tedx speaker and a
(00:24):
doctor of social work with 28years of experience in clinical
practice.
Dr Jodi helps her clients healfrom trauma, read the world and
reclaim self-acceptance and joy.
She's the creator of Compass,an emotional wellness curriculum
for middle and high schoolstudents to help reduce symptoms
of anxiety and depressionstudents to help reduce symptoms
(00:45):
of anxiety and depression.
Her talk show Ask Dr Jodi islive streamed weekly on her
YouTube channel At Dr Jodi,where she shares mental health
and relationship advice.
She's the author of severalbooks, including Anxiety I'm so
Done With you, a Teen's Guide toDitching Toxic Stress and
Hardwiring your brain forhappiness.
She's helped over 2 millionpeople understand and reverse
(01:08):
the current mental health crisis.
Let's welcome Dr Jodi Amon.
Hi, dr Jodi, hello, good to seeyou.
Good to see you too.
So I listened to your TED Talkthis morning.
I really liked your take onwhat is causing this rise right
(01:30):
in teen mental health problems,and actually I think you refer
to it as an epidemic Like why isthat anxiety rising?
And I love how you broke itdown into those three different
areas.
And I was super intrigued bythis idea of chores helping calm
anxiety.
Would you share this idea withus, because how easy would that
(01:56):
be to implement?
Dr. Jodi Aman (01:58):
Yeah, you know, when somebody has anxiety, when
your child has anxiety, you tryto take things off their plate.
You know you try to take thingsoff their plate.
You know you're kind of.
Our mentality is like ease them, let them relax a little bit,
but it's actuallycounterproductive because we're
really telling them you can'thandle stuff With the modern
conveniences.
With the rise of modernconveniences and with us having
(02:21):
less things to do, our brain hasdeveloped for two million years
to solve problems all day so wecould survive.
We don't need to do that asmuch anymore.
You know we don't need to solveproblems all day, but that
capability is still there andbecause that capability is still
there, we replace it Like ourmind is like we might not be
(02:42):
safe, find a problem, so it'sreplaced with negativity, unless
we're like creative and we'redoing something else.
That could be a chore too, butthat.
So with the decrease in ushaving to do all these things to
survive, we're actuallycreating all this mind space for
us to go into the negative, andso I could see that getting
(03:02):
worse and worse and worse andyou could see this generation
having less and less work ethicand some of that's good, because
our work ethic was kind of putonto us with the industrial
revolution to try to get us towork, except for it's like
there's this entitlement not tohave to.
You know that they're beingtaught.
It's not them, it's not theyoung people that are the
(03:25):
problem, it's culturally put onthem.
I think that's where thatmarketing piece comes in, is
where we have messagesconstantly accessible to us 24
hours a day.
These marketers could access usand telling us that we should
just get stuff, just becauseit's cool, we should just get
stuff.
So those two things combinedhaving less to do to survive,
(03:49):
being able to just go and getsome food out of our cupboard
and eat it instead of making itor whatever else we had to do to
contribute to our family wedon't have to do any of that
anymore, and so there's a lot ofspace.
It's almost like a luxuryproblem.
When people have more and moreluxury, they have this different
kind of anxiety.
(04:10):
If you have trauma and you havea lot of difficulty, you have
one kind of anxiety, but you areefforting and you're overcoming
it and you're buildingresilience.
If you have a lot of luxury andyou have that kind of anxiety,
it just grows, because the moreanxiety you have the more frozen
you are.
You know it's not a buildingresilience kind of anxiety.
(04:32):
So this is what we're facing,yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:36):
So do you think that we instinctively try to
fill that space Right?
Instinctively try to fill thatspace right when?
If we aren't, if we aren'thaving to run from the tiger in
the bush behind us anymore,right?
If we're not having to solvebig problems all day, every day
(04:58):
anymore, because we don't evenhave to remember phone numbers
anymore, right and so.
But do you think that weinstinctively fight against that
idea of just being, of justsitting in that space, of just
appreciating some downtime?
Do you think we-.
Dr. Jodi Aman (05:18):
I think when you say instinctually, I think
that's true.
But when you say weinstinctually try, that means
it's intentional or that we'redoing something.
I think that's true.
But when you say weinstinctually try, that means
it's intentional or that we'redoing something.
I think that happens reallysubconsciously, that when
there's no problem, our mind hasbeen trained to try to find one
.
So it's kind of happeningoutside of our awareness though,
(05:39):
because when we get theinformation, the mind's saying,
like when we hear those thoughtsor when we have awareness of
what those thoughts are, then weput meaning around those
thoughts.
So that's our participation init.
But first they come because ourmind's just going to do that on
its own.
And, yes, it also of coursedepends on our experiences in
(06:01):
life.
If we've had a lot of chaos inour life, then that's going to
come.
You know our amygdala is goingto work really harder to keep us
safe, you know, because it'shad so much experience of
unsafety and insecurity.
But when we do have thosethoughts, then we put meaning
around the thoughts, likesomething's wrong with me.
All I think is negative, I'mtired all the time.
(06:24):
Something's wrong with me, likeI'm lazy, why can't I do stuff?
And you get this like us versusthem mentality.
Everyone else is fine but me,because mental low self-esteem
is totally invisible.
We're all walking around withit, especially in Western
culture.
We're all walking around withlow self-esteem.
But when you look at people youcan't see that right away.
(06:46):
But you could see yourself, youcould feel yourself, you could
feel how bad you feel and youfeel like you're the only one.
And then you're like what'swrong?
Why do I have this problem?
It's hard to separate that fromour sense of worth.
If we feel we're not happy, wejust correlate it and connect it
with our sense of worth, whichobviously makes us feel worse,
(07:08):
and then it kind of snowballs.
Sandy Zamalis (07:11):
So that must be why you know the chore piece is
really a key piece for you,because it helps instill that
pride and accomplishment, right?
So your book is really gearedtowards teens.
It's not geared towards parents.
So how do you encourage kids to?
Yeah, anxiety?
I'm so done with you.
I love the title of it as well.
(07:32):
A listener, she held up thebook, so if you're watching
you'll see it.
But that is the title of herbook.
She's written it with teens inmind, so it's written to them.
And because we want them tohave that value of
accomplishment, how do youencourage them to take on
problems or challenges?
Dr. Jodi Aman (07:53):
That is a great question because the book
actually many parents andeducators and counselors are
reading the book too becausethey want to know how to help.
But I also have.
Let me just do another plugAlso, if you're watching the
video, you can see this.
I also have another download,free download on my website.
That's a Generation Z MentalHealth Survival Guide and it
explains that in this I give alot of activities that you could
(08:17):
do in the home and in theclassroom to build some of these
skills up, to counter, todecrease symptoms of anxiety and
depression by doing theseactivities.
So we really want to engage increative things.
We want to engage in problemsolving, but like not problem
solving like a problem, butcreative problem solving.
If we're going to make thiswooden box, what kind of hinges
(08:41):
do we want on it?
Do we want the hinges hidden?
Do we want them on the outside?
Are we going to paint it?
Is it going to be big?
Is it going to be a flat lid?
How are people going to open it?
How do we want to decorate it?
Is it functional or is itpretty?
Those decision-making, thatkind of problem-solving, is
really good for building up andstimulating the prefrontal
cortex.
And when we build up andstimulate that prefrontal cortex
(09:03):
then it has a lot more powerover the anxiety.
Like your anxiety goes down themore you build up and stimulate
your prefrontal cortex.
So people who are engaged increative activity are engaged in
problem solving, challengingthemselves, learning something
new, doing chores.
It helps them in several ways.
(09:23):
One, yes, it builds confidence,but and it does it biologically
, like neurologically, it helps.
But also it's like we seeourself as skilled.
Right now, the youngergeneration, and I have to say
adults too, because we'regetting the same messages that
they're getting right we seeourself as unable, we see
ourself as unadaptable, we thinkthat we can't handle stuff we
(09:45):
don.
We see ourself as unable, wesee ourself as unadaptable, we
think that we can't handle stuff.
We don't see ourself as skilled.
We live in this deficitmentality and we're just seeing
all the things that we can't do,all things we haven't gotten to
yet.
You know, we just have thisreally negative view of ourself.
And so if you engage in things,then you'd start to relate to
yourself and know yourself assomeone who has skills.
You have skills, everybody hasskills, because the skills came
(10:13):
even from evolution.
Right, our skills andadaptability are there for
everybody already, and so wehave them.
And obviously nobody could getto the age they are If you're 13
, if you're 15, if you're 17, ifyou had no skills, you wouldn't
be here.
So we know that they have themand I think that's a message us
adults have to give is, like youhave skills, we're going to
show you that you have them.
I do give tips on how to dothat too.
(10:33):
So that's jodiaymondcom slashguide.
Jodiaymondcom slash guide Getthe Generation Z Mental Health
Resource Guide.
Very comprehensive download foryou.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:47):
Yeah, I like that .
So you actually break downchores into three different
types, right?
So the tedious ones that nobodyever wants to do, right, taking
out the trash, vacuuming thingslike that.
I think what you were talkingabout a second ago is what you
would call a challenging chore,right, like we have to fix this
or build this or createsomething.
(11:08):
Yeah, make something, somethingthat requires those critical
thinking skills.
Dr. Jodi Aman (11:12):
Sure, let me review all three of those.
So there's three kinds ofchores that I delineated in my
TEDx Wilmington talk, and onewas tedious chores, and I'm
going to tell you the importanceof those.
And then one's challengingchores, and then the last one's
generous chores.
So the first one, tedious it'sbecause you know, our brain has
two functions One is to surviveand thrive, and the other is to
(11:34):
conserve calories, because forso long in our evolution we
didn't have access to food.
We had to find our own food orhunt our own food, and so we
really wanted to conservecalories.
It was very important forsurvival.
We don't need to do thatanymore, but that capability is
there.
So when we're faced with tasks,our mind is like is this for
(11:55):
survival?
No, is it for pleasure orthriving?
No, and it puts this biologicalresistance to try to keep us
safe and keep us alive.
But we don't need that anymore.
But what happens is young peopleand people my age, all ages
right are feeling thatresistance and saying
something's wrong.
I don't understand why.
(12:16):
I don't want to do this.
They feel that resistance andit becomes.
We put a lot of meaning aroundit.
Something's wrong with us orwhy am I so tired all the time?
Why am I so tired all the time?
And then you probably hearyoung people say that.
Probably all of you are hearingyoung people say that I'm so
tired, I'm so tired.
That's this biologicalresistance that comes up.
We could definitely override itand if we continuously do these
(12:39):
more tedious chores, like wesweep every day, it's not so
hard.
If we've never sweep, theynever sweep.
And you ask your kids to sweep,it is a song and a dance, right
, it is.
So there's so much resistance.
And when, when they start theresistance, then they really
feel like you know you'reoppressing them by asking them
to do this and they're reallyrebelling.
(13:00):
You know so it builds upbecause you, they make meaning
around it and they're like thisisn't fair.
You know so it builds upbecause they make meaning around
it.
They're like this isn't fair.
You know all of that comes out.
So we don't understand thisnatural resistance that we have
to doing chores and if we didthings every day, some of you
have kids who you have them dothe same thing every day and
(13:20):
they don't complain as much,they just get it done.
But if they haven't done it in areally long time and they do it
it's a problem.
That's because if they'recontinuously doing these tedious
chores, they're integrated.
They know it's easy that whenthe resistance comes up they're
like I'm better off getting onthe other side of it, right?
They see that it's thriving tobe on the other side of it
(13:42):
because it's got to be done,even if you don't care about it.
It's got to be done toparticipate in the family,
whatever right.
So we want them to continuouslydo tedious chores.
We want kids to do hard things.
You know we need to do hardthings.
So that gets to the second one,the challenge.
We want to do hard things.
I want to stop.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:01):
Yeah, I have a question about that.
Great, I want to stop.
Yeah, I have a question aboutthat.
So I'm sitting here thinking,okay, so that creates like these
automatic behaviors right, thismuscle memory for okay, we're
done with dinner, it's time todo the dishes.
Right, Like so.
It is a routine, it's justsomething that you have to do,
so it makes it a little biteasier because you're just used
to doing it.
(14:21):
So if we take that idea and Ithink about how many parents
alternate chores with their kidsright so like.
Today it's, you know,Christopher's day to do to sweep
, and right, Like so theyalternate them but if we apply
(14:42):
that idea, then I would thinkmaybe you should do them for a
month at a time before youswitch.
Dr. Jodi Aman (14:48):
Or I don't know, maybe it depends.
Are you switching and the otherone has something else?
Or if there's three kids andthree little jobs and they
rotate, that would be okay.
That's often enough.
But you know, if they have asports right, so they're in a
sport, so for the two monthsthey're at sports practice, so
they don't do any chores aroundthe house.
This is what we do as parents.
(15:09):
We don't give them the choresduring that time and then the
sports season ended and then youhave them do the chores.
It's different.
But when they see theirsiblings do it and it's part of
the routine, if it's every threedays or something, that would
(15:29):
be okay.
That's frequent enough.
But they might have somethingelse during that time because
they have to make their bedevery day or something like that
would be fine, that's fine,great, yeah, so challenging.
Challenging is our mind loves tobe challenged, right?
It's like our soul wants to bechallenged because it's
constantly looking for how tosurvive, like how to survive
better, how to thrive better,and so we have this drive for
(15:51):
challenge and it lights us up.
We don't want a bad challenge,obviously, but we're going to
have some, and so if we'reconstantly challenging ourself
in smaller ways.
The bigger ones are going to bea lot easier to handle.
You're going to have a lot ofskills connecting with people.
You're going to have skills inknowing where to find help, time
management all of those thingsthat really help us help life be
(16:13):
better.
Right, if you have somechallenging chores, or kids have
some challenging chores, it'shelpful.
It sparks us.
It creates the dopamine when weget it.
It builds our confidence inourself that we can figure
something out that's hard.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:31):
Yeah, that sense of accomplishment, Exactly, and
that you're bringing value tosomething, yeah, right.
Dr. Jodi Aman (16:37):
There's a sense of purpose as well.
You see yourself as skilled.
You build that confidence up.
Usually with challenging choresthere's other people involved
not always, but sometimes and sothere's a bonding that's
happening which is veryimportant for our well-being.
And then the last one Idelineated was generous chores,
because I like when kids dothings for other people.
If you're helping somebody orvolunteering in the neighborhood
(17:00):
or with the church or something, or just with the grandparents,
helping other people andgetting that integrated into
their life, that we do stuff andwe help other people, that's
also really good for a sense ofpurpose.
It's also really good forrelationships, but it teaches
them how to be, you know, civil,civic-minded, and we need more
(17:20):
civic mind.
I think we really lost a lot ofcivic mindedness in this world
in this generation.
So we really, you know, withpeople on their phones or not in
person, and so we lost a lot ofthat and right now we need to
get that back.
Dr. Amy Moore (17:35):
I would think that would build empathy as well
.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course,of course, yeah, and I mean an
empathy is one of the lastskills that we develop between
the amygdala and the prefrontalcortex, and so to start
nurturing that early on and kindof create that schema of
empathy early on, I think what aneat way to do that too.
(17:58):
I mean you're accomplishingmultiple things at one time.
Dr. Jodi Aman (18:01):
Exactly exactly.
Yeah, empathy is teachable andwe have to teach it.
From age two you could startteaching empathy.
Sandy Zamalis (18:13):
Yeah, obviously it goes much smoother when it's
been your family culture fromthe beginning, right?
So how?
How would you encourage aparent who, if they're listening
to our podcast today andwanting to try to implement,
they're seeing what you'resaying, that they're
understanding the argument andthey really want to try to
implement this in their home,but it has not been the norm in
(18:35):
their home and their kids areolder.
There's going to be somepushback.
How do you recommend havingthat conversation with your
family to make a change likethat, where you're wanting to
encourage them to practicechallenges at home?
Dr. Jodi Aman (18:51):
Yeah, I think somehow make it fun.
Make it little, littlechallenges at first, smaller
chores at first, chores thatmaybe you all do together.
So if it's like just doing thedriveway or the walkway, but
you're all doing it together,it's really quick.
Then you have so much gratitude.
It makes it so much easier.
That wasn't so bad, was it?
(19:12):
Oh, I'm so glad you helped withit because that went so fast.
Whatever, something little and apositive experience, and then
you could gradually get bigger.
You could also haveconversations.
This might be hard, but this isreally good for all of us or I
need it because of this or thatand the other thing.
And then stay consistent, knowthat there'll be pushback and
(19:37):
don't take it personally.
That's what's so hard.
As parents, we take all thatpersonally, we think we've done
something wrong or we look at oh, if I did this the whole time,
they wouldn't be doing this.
But it's not necessarilyhelpful to go down that path.
You did it because there wasother things going on, maybe a
divorce or very busy, or youwere taking care of your parents
or something like that, and itwas just easier to do things
(19:58):
yourself instead of fightingwith them all the time.
Don't blame yourself.
It happens, it happens.
It's so easy to happen with allof the rapidness of things and
the screens and pressure on us.
So don't beat yourself up andjust like be gentle.
(20:22):
Be gentle with yourself and begentle with them.
Start small, try to make it fun.
Sandy Zamalis (20:26):
I like that incorporation from that
relational aspect too, of youknow doing something together or
maybe starting off with aproject that you do as a family.
My kids will call me out, youlearn hard things.
So you're going to, you know,clean out.
Dr. Jodi Aman (20:41):
Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (20:42):
Build that wall.
Dr. Jodi Aman (20:44):
We yeah.
So I always have like I alwaysthought let's put music on and
clean.
And they just were like youthink that music helps?
You know they'll do whateverthey can to get out of it.
So music doesn't help make itfun.
I'm like yes, it does.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:03):
My mom used to tell me that chores are required
because that means you are acontributing member of the
family, and so it was anon-negotiable kind of
conversation, right?
That's what it means to be acontributing member of the
family.
And so it was a non-negotiablekind of conversation, right?
That's what it means to be acontributing member of the
family.
And it drove me crazy, right,when she would say those words.
(21:23):
But I catch myself thinkingthat at the same time, like why
am I the only one doing this?
Right Now?
My kids I'm a brand new emptynester.
My youngest just left forcollege last week but I would
catch myself thinking that, okay, why are they not being
contributing members of thefamily?
Dr. Jodi Aman (21:44):
Because you have to teach them to be.
They're not going to do itright.
You know parenting, we're thefrontal lobe.
We're like the frontal lobe forour kids for a long time.
They're not developing until 25.
And so when their brain is like, is this for survival and
thriving, or should I conservecalories?
They're going to get resistanceand we have to override,
because we know doing the thingsthat we want them to do whether
(22:06):
it's chores or getting thatessay done or whatever is for
their thriving right there'sresults that they want or that
are positive for them in theirlife.
But it's hard to relate it tothis essay, and so we as parents
have to be that prefrontal lobefor them and say, yes, you have
to get it done, it'll feel goodto get on the other side.
(22:28):
Whatever trick you could say, Iknow you don't want to do it,
you know your brain.
I tell people, I tell youngpeople, you know your brain is
trying to conserve calories, butyou're fine, you could override
it.
Our mammalian brain couldoverride that and say I'm safe,
I can do it, I have enough food.
So once I override it, insteadof being like something's wrong,
(22:52):
somebody's forcing me and I gotto protest, they could override
it with their brain and makeslife a lot easier.
So you have to train them to dothat slowly.
But yeah, I mean they get asense of belonging.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:05):
That is true, yeah, what do you think about
connecting chores with allowance, for example?
We don't work for free for themost part in the adult world,
right, typically our careers.
Dr. Jodi Aman (23:24):
But we do run the house.
We do our survival skills, allof our personal.
You know, we pay our bills.
No one pays us to pay our bills.
There is a lot of those thingsthat we do do we have to, you
know, organize somebody'sbirthday party or something.
No one pays us for those things.
Yeah, some of it are our choice.
(23:45):
It's our choice, except forthere's results that we do want
from them.
If our fridge is broken, we gotto get it fixed, or we're not
going to have a fridge right.
So there is a lot of thingsthat we do that aren't so some.
You know, I think that parentscould make their own decisions
about this, what they want to do.
So there might be chores thateveryone has to do.
(24:06):
And then there's these extrathings that they could earn
money for if they want to, andthat, I think, is maybe the best
of both worlds that everybodyhelps with the dishes, or helps
with the dinner, sets the table,or makes their bed or whatever,
or laundry when they get oldenough.
But in addition, if they wantmoney, they could weed the
(24:28):
garden or those kind of thingsthat maybe are kind of above and
beyond those daily tasks thatwe have to do every day just to
run the house.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:36):
I really like that explanation because it
answers an argument, right yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (24:43):
They need to know why.
Yeah, Really, and we have theanswers you know.
So I think that's what'simportant.
If they really understand, it'sharder to argue against it.
Sandy Zamalis (24:54):
Yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (24:55):
They will, they will though.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:57):
Well, absolutely Right.
Like, if there's something tochallenge, they will challenge
it.
Dr. Jodi Aman (25:02):
Yeah, that's what they're developmentally.
That's exactly what they'resupposed to be doing, so.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:06):
For sure.
OK, I want to switch gears alittle bit and talk about some
concepts from your book thatwere intriguing, and I just
loved how you explained them.
And so the book is aboutanxiety.
Right and okay, these are thesteps that, as a teenager, you
get to take to minimize theanxiety that you're experiencing
(25:30):
, and so I love that you talkabout how there's this
misconception that anxiety isjust fear.
Right, that it's just thiseither this irrational fear or
this nervousness, but youactually say that anxiety is
anything that makes you bothered.
(25:51):
I really liked that word.
So it's not just fear, but itcould be frustration, or being
annoyed, or being sad, or upset,or confused.
I don't know what to do next.
And so talk a little bit abouthow anxiety is not always what
we say it is.
Dr. Jodi Aman (26:11):
Well, there's a lot of words for anxiety, but
this is what helps youunderstand when we're upset,
when we're angry, when we'renervous, when we're anxious,
when things are weird, whenwe're confused, the hormone is
the same.
It's all adrenaline or cortisol.
And adrenaline and cortisolworks in the body very similar
ways.
They're stress hormones and socortisol is a little bit longer
(26:33):
lasting and adrenaline is likeimmediate up and down.
So when we have any of theseupset feelings, there's not
different hormones for everyfeeling.
It's the same hormone, it's alladrenaline.
And if you think that it's alladrenaline, you realize that
adrenaline comes when you'rebothered, when you're afraid,
(26:54):
whatever.
That adrenaline comes whenyou're bothered, when you're
afraid, whatever you know.
But there's a originally, whenwe were evolving.
You know we have to keep goingback to the brain because this
helps people understand.
We need to take the mystery outof anxiety, and then people are
like oh, because the mystery iswhat perpetuates it in a big
way.
Right?
So originally, if somebodylooked at us weird, we could be
(27:19):
thrown out of the community andthat would mean death.
You know in hunter-gatherertimes, like we needed a
community.
We couldn't survive on our ownas humans.
And so if you weren't sureabout something.
Yes, you did need theadrenaline, so our brain was
developed to release adrenalineat those times.
If you got angry, it meantsomeone could beat you up or
hurt you or whatever.
(27:40):
So of course, the adrenaline'sgoing to come because you need
to have that superhuman strengthright.
The whole point of adrenalineis to call your attention and
decide to act to survive, toflee or fight or freeze.
If that's the last resort, wefreeze, but any time we're
bothered at all could have meantrisk.
(28:01):
It doesn't always mean risk,but it could, and so our bodies
needed that hormone to bereleased.
So we were prepared in case itmeant danger, in case it did.
So yes, I used to think ofanxiety as just like fear when
you're afraid.
But I understand that theadrenaline is all these things,
(28:21):
but I like to define anxiety asthe leftover fear response when
you're not in danger.
So the leftover sympatheticnervous system, the leftover
symptoms of adrenaline, thefeelings that adrenaline brings
to your body mentally,physically, when you're not in
danger.
When you are in danger, you'redoing something to survive,
you're taking action and you'rerunning back to the village
(28:45):
maybe.
And when you get to the villageyou're like huffing and puffing
, like, oh my gosh, guess whathappened.
The big animal and I survived.
And everyone's like thankgoodness you survived.
They're hugging you right.
You're decompressing all ofthat right.
Your adrenaline's going downand being processed in this
retelling of what happened andthe thankfulness of surviving.
(29:05):
We don't have that kind of thingright now.
We have the fear response andit comes to our prefrontal
cortex and it's like look around, if there's danger, tell me
what to do.
And the prefrontal cortex saysI don't see anything, but I feel
it.
Keep pumping the hormonesbecause I feel it.
That's not how it's supposed towork, but that's how it works
nowadays.
So, yeah, so it's important forus to understand that we have
(29:30):
this adrenaline.
It's usually we're safe, but weput meaning around that feeling
that we might not be, and so itperpetuates.
That's why I like to call itthe leftover fear response when
you're not in danger, because Idon't want people.
People are like sometimesanxiety is good, it tells you to
wear a helmet.
Well, that's common sense.
Let's call it somethingpositive.
(29:51):
So then, because people arelike you need some anxiety, it
protects me and I wanted toseparate that out, because it's
hard to get rid of anxiety if itprotects you.
But if we understood anxiety tobe something that you do not
need and there's smartness orcommon sense or skills that you
have that help you survive, andwe divide it up like that, it
(30:12):
really helps people.
Let it go if they need to, ifthey want to, and people want to
because it's awful.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:19):
Sure, and I love how you know you point out that
when we put meaning to ourthoughts, right then, when we
attach feelings to that thoughtthat oh, I'm in danger, right,
that's when we perpetuate theanxiety, right, Like it's our
relationship with language.
So this is the analogy that Iuse in counseling.
(30:44):
It's like you know how, aswomen, a lot of us have this
emotional response to the numberon the scale.
When we step on it, that's howmuch we weigh.
Well, that's just ourrelationship with gravity.
And so if we think about thenumber on the scale as just this
metric that defines ourrelationship with gravity, the
same way we can think about how,when we language is just words,
(31:07):
it's just words.
And so when those thoughts popin, we're the ones that say
that's a big deal, that's athought I should be upset about
that thought.
Right, it's really justlanguage.
Dr. Jodi Aman (31:19):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Sandy Zamalis (31:22):
That's such a great way to explain it and, dr
Jodi, in your book you even talkabout how the use of the term
chemical imbalance has reallykind of skewed our understanding
of this topic.
So let's dive in there a littlebit, because I do think that is
a misnomer.
It is causing us to have poorconversations about this,
(31:43):
because we think of it assomething is out of balance or
out of whack.
Dr. Jodi Aman (31:47):
Yeah, we think about something's wrong with us,
and I think practitionerscontinue to use this metaphor or
this way of thinking about itbecause they think it decreases
stigma.
You know, they think thatpeople blame themselves less if
they think of it as a chemicalimbalance, and so their
intentions are good, except forit does not actually work like
that.
It makes people think thatthey're different.
(32:09):
Some people are balanced, butI'm not balanced.
Also, using the word chemical,I mean this is a pharmaceutical
marketing tactic.
To use the word chemicalinstead of hormone.
Hormone doesn't sound asthreatening.
Chemicals sound morethreatening, and so that's why
that term is being used.
We're just talking abouthormones.
Adrenaline goes up and down allday.
Serotonin could go up and downall day and we could actually
(32:31):
affect it.
We could actually do meditationand make our serotonin come up
and go down it.
We could actually do meditationand make our serotonin come up
and go down, and so I'm notagainst medicine.
I think it's a tool and it savespeople's lives, but the
marketing of it makes us thinkabout these problems in a way
that really stall us in order tomake us dependent on them, but
(32:53):
really stall us from thinkingthat we could get better, that
it's a regular human response toour world Right.
Anxiety, depression, lack ofmotivation, feeling stuck,
feeling resistance, feelingangry these are responses to our
context.
They're not mental illnesses,and so when we understand it
(33:15):
that way and we understand wherethey're coming from, then we
could do something about it.
We could change thatrelationship with gravity not
with gravity, but with all ofthese problems, right.
So the chemical imbalance, it'sconstantly changing.
Our hormones are changing everyminute, so there's never a
(33:35):
balance.
Actually we don't need tostrive for that.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:39):
Well, and you mentioned in your book, it's not
like you can put the amount ofserotonin in your brain is on
this side of the scale, whichmakes it imbalanced.
I mean you can't measureserotonin that way.
Dr. Jodi Aman (33:57):
Right, it's not even a real metaphor.
I mean we yeah like we don'tknow how much serotonin we have
and what it is if we don't, ifwe're depressed, if that is
actually less like we're notmeasuring it.
You know, we're not.
It's not a blood test and we'resaying your chemicals are
imbalanced.
We don't have that capability.
People are just going from whatyour symptoms are and saying
you might, it's, it's a metaphor, it's not real.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:19):
Well, and it's a big one, it's a dangerous one,
it's one that's common, thatdrives the thinking that, okay,
if I have depression, then Ineed something to increase the
serotonin in my brain becauseI'm chemically imbalanced.
Dr. Jodi Aman (34:34):
Yeah, but we're having, I think with which
that's you're bringing up a goodpoint dopamine.
You know we're reallyinterrupting your dopamine cycle
with our screens and is thatwhat you're going to say next?
You know we're reallyinterrupting that.
Yeah, we're not measuring itand it's not balanced or not
balanced, but we definitely arestruggling with being
disinterested in stuff, notcaring about things and not
(34:58):
being interested in stuff, notgetting excited about anything.
You know, when somebody beforeCOVID.
It's even worse now becauseeven in the last five years our
screen time skyrocketed.
It was bad before COVID butit's been even worse since
because there's more apps,there's more stuff to do.
It's just constant, but it'sinterrupting our dopamine cycle,
(35:19):
so we're seeing the problemseven more.
I forgot what I was going tosay about it, but it's like oh,
I know before that when somebodycame into my office and was
like I don't know, I don'treally care if I get better.
I don't think I will get better, but I don't really care.
I know that they're isolated.
I know that that's a dopamineissue.
That's not a depression issue.
(35:41):
It's a symptom of them beingisolated.
They're so isolated that theirdopamine hasn't hit.
They haven't had dopamine in along time they haven't done
anything interesting.
They're probably sleeping allday and up alone all night and
this is why they're notinterested in anything.
It's a dopamine issue.
But people look at that and say, well, you're severely
depressed.
Yes, it causes the depression.
(36:04):
It's not the depression thatcauses that, it's the isolation
or the dopamine that causes that.
And now we're seeing it withthe screen time interrupting our
dopamine cycle.
We're seeing it even thoughpeople aren't isolated, but also
they're isolated.
Mm-hmm Screen.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:20):
Yeah Right, you can look at a family and they're
all on their screens as opposedto being connected, so they are
isolating themselves, even ifyou're in proximity to another
person.
Exactly.
Sandy Zamalis (36:32):
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Dr. Amy Moore (37:27):
So, speaking of connectedness, you do talk about
that and why teens needconnectedness, and you even give
some tips on how we canincrease that.
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
Dr. Jodi Aman (37:53):
for 2025 in my platform is telling people to
get together in person.
That's the best thing that youcan do is get together in person
, but have conversations withyoung people.
If you have consistentconversations with young people,
they're going to start to tellyou more and more about their
life, obviously, if thoseinteractions are positive.
But for teachers, have a spacewhere you could tell kids.
They could come talk to you.
You know, parents, if you haveplaces where you're talking to
(38:16):
your kids about concepts of theworld or their own things or
their friends, those kind ofthings build rapport and build
bonding and help them feelconnected.
They want to belong tosomething.
So this goes the same as doing atour.
Get them involved in a club,get them involved in doing
something.
This usually is a familyculture.
If a parent goes to work andcomes home and watches TV all
(38:38):
night and doesn't do anything,usually the kids aren't
participating in stuff.
It's part of the culture of afamily.
If the parents are doing thisand that and the other thing,
they're very involved, they havea lot of friends then the kids
are doing that too, becausethat's part of the family
culture.
So you have to model that.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:54):
So you're showing this is what we value.
Dr. Jodi Aman (38:57):
Yes, but you're also making it.
You're normalizing being withpeople.
You're normalizing doing things.
You're normalizing volunteering.
You know for the club and youknow helping with the logistics.
You know, yeah, if you belongto a club, you have a sense of
belonging, but there's also likean event, and so you're
bringing cookies, or you knowyou're doing something also, so
(39:18):
there's like the work, butthere's a sense of belonging.
That's so important, thatconnectedness, and that's what
your mom was saying when she wassaying you're participating in
a family.
You know, there's a sense ofbelonging in that.
So when kids who do tours, theyhave a higher sense of
belonging in the family systemas well.
Sandy Zamalis (39:38):
So I think that's why video gaming anymore is so
addictive for our boys, becauseit is community building, it is
connection building for them,along with all of the other
pieces that come with videogaming.
So with that in mind, becausethat connection piece is really
key, do you encourage teens to?
(39:59):
You know, find a sport, try asport, get into?
You know, clubs are hard tofind other than in school, right
In colleges, you know, and thenas adults we struggle to find
these communities.
So, in a world that's so muchmore digital than it is in
person, how do we encourage themto get out and make those
(40:21):
connections?
Dr. Amy Moore (40:22):
And recognize that a large portion of our
audience are homeschool parents.
Dr. Jodi Aman (40:27):
Yeah, well, a lot of homeschool parents I know
they do have activities withother homeschooling families and
so they do once or twice a weekthey're doing an activity or a
field trip or something, a danceclass or something with other
people, or robotics class,something.
There's classes in thecommunity.
(40:49):
There's sports that are clubsports.
There's things that are atschool.
There's things that we don'teven know about.
I had a client I wasencouraging, or she was really
isolated, and I was like fine,even sit and knit, but she found
bells.
You know those big bells Churchbells and bells.
Or a choir For adults.
Maybe we need to just join achoir and once a week you're
(41:14):
with a choir, like for adults.
Like maybe we need to just joina choir and once a week you're
with a choir and then you singon the weekend, or something
like that.
There are things, actually.
You know, If you do belong to achurch, you might volunteer for
the welcoming committee, ormight volunteer for one of the
missions that you know help inhospice, or you know volunteer
at the hospice center near you.
There are unlimited things thatyou could do.
Um, yeah and it, and we can'tthink of them and so we kind of
(41:39):
think there isn't any, but thereare and these are needed.
Get, get involved in your localtheater yeah, that's always
stuff to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:49):
That was what I did my whole childhood.
Sandy Zamalis (41:51):
Yeah, me too, yeah well, there's always ways,
like all of the things you'vetalked about today are included
in community theater, which isreally funny because, like you
know, there are chores involvedin being in theater.
If you don't make the cast, youknow there's set design.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:08):
There's so much other things that you can do to
build skill and grow and it'sthat camaraderie that you yeah,
homeschool parents should lookinto something like that, some
kind of a theater, because youcould do tech if they don't want
to perform.
There's other jobs there, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (42:26):
Lighting so many skills, costumes.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (42:30):
For sure yeah.
Dr. Jodi Aman (42:31):
And great stuff that'll help you in life too.
So I'm on a board in my localchildren's theater.
So my daughter grew up intheater and still is an actress,
so I'm a theater mom.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:44):
Yeah, I take so much pride in telling people
that I was a child actressbecause I spent my entire
childhood on stage, and so itwas the way I connected with
(43:05):
others.
It was the way that I felt likeI brought value to the world.
Dr. Jodi Aman (43:06):
Yeah, we need that right.
We need entertainment to getthrough our hard times.
Think about time immemorial.
There was always someperformance, I don't know.
Always in human history therewas some kind of a ceremony
performance and then it turnedinto more of a play and you know
, I mean just like forever, yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (43:27):
Before.
I know we're getting late inour talk and I want to make sure
we talk about it because thisparticular issue is fascinating
to me.
But you have a stance on scarymovies.
Let's talk about that assomeone who is perpetually
fearful of scary movies Me too.
Why are they important for ourteens?
Dr. Jodi Aman (43:47):
I think that everyone's a little bit
different.
So you're saying this, andrew,because I had an episode of my
live show on Monday nights mydaughter's on with me sometimes
and we did an episode on scarymovies.
But really we started to talkabout how stories and how
performances really help us heal, have the potential to help us
(44:09):
heal, and so if you have anxiety, some people with anxiety love
scary movies.
Some people with anxiety won'twatch scary movies.
So it depends on the person.
Some people who've experiencedtrauma like scary movies because
it seems like a way they couldrelease some of the tension that
they feel or some of the things, because they could relate to
the characters.
So it doesn't have to be ahorror movie.
(44:30):
It could be a emotionally sadmovie or something like that.
There's a catharsis thathappens, that we're able to
process some of our history andour self via the movie.
So if it's anxiety over someonekilling us, some of that gets
processed during the movie.
Then for the other person thatcould be stimulating.
(44:52):
You know someone like me.
I watch a movie like that andthen I'm scared.
I'm scared or more scared, butsome people it was relieving
them.
So interesting how anxietyaffects people in completely
different ways and I think partof that episode was
acknowledging that.
You know, stories in generalhave the potential to heal, but
(45:13):
people could.
In terms of scary movies,people do respond to them
differently.
Sandy Zamalis (45:17):
But my kids think they're hilarious.
Dr. Jodi Aman (45:20):
I know I wish I felt like that.
I do not.
Yet I'd be like, no, I'm notwatching that.
But they, you know, they justthey know it's fiction right, so
they just, yeah, they'relooking for all the errors they
they're.
Sandy Zamalis (45:31):
They are totally watching it with an eye of um.
I mean, that's good too yeah,trying to catch the mistakes
that were made, like, if youthink about it, that's problem
solving.
Dr. Jodi Aman (45:42):
Yeah, right, so they're.
They're, they're in thecritique of the movie.
I also like learning conceptsthrough it's.
You know, we're all watching tvand we're all watching things
together.
But thinking about empathy whenyou're talking about the show
afterwards and thinking aboutthe characters or why they
decide to do what they did, whydid they make this?
Why did they decide thenegative thing?
(46:02):
Why did they decide thepositive thing at the end, you
know, talking about that becausethere's a distance, right,
they're not emotionally involvedthat because there's a distance
, right, they're not emotionallyinvolved they could develop
their concepts through that.
Seeing that from that distance,that's going to help them in
their life.
Yeah, so I love critiquingshows afterwards.
(46:24):
My daughter had a friend thatcame to the movies with us and
she was like flabbergastedbecause on the way home we're
like analyzing this movie andwe're trying all the things and
all the parts and her familydidn't do that, you know, and
she loved it.
It was so stimulating to likethink about not only the
characters but like, yeah, ifthere's mistakes in there or
(46:46):
holes in the plot, and all ofthat, we love to analyze that
all because it like stimulatesthe mind, it gets us, it's
bonding and it gets us thinkingabout stuff.
We want to teach our kids howto read the world.
You know how to understanddifferent things.
Sandy Zamalis (47:01):
You know my daughter and I were just having
this conversation just last week.
Actually she, she's moving.
She lives in Austin right nowand she's moving back to
Virginia and when Wicked cameout I was like, oh, you need to
go see Wicked because she washaving a hard time just at work
and just a lot of other things.
I'm like you need to go.
(47:21):
She loves movies anyway, so Ididn't take much prodding, but
she has been addicted to thatmovie since she went to see it.
I think she's seen it likethree or four times.
So good, they did a great jobthey did.
And she's listened to the musiclike on repeat, over and over
and over.
And I asked her, you know, kindof in line with what you were
(47:43):
saying, I asked her why she wasjust feeling such kinship with
this movie and she was just likeit's just all of it.
It's the being misunderstoodand being alone and you know
friendships and like becauseshe's getting ready to move the
friendship pieces.
So she's like it's just, itfeels like it encapsulates my
whole life right now.
(48:04):
Yeah, you see the developmentof the characters.
Dr. Jodi Aman (48:07):
Yeah, no way that we.
You know, sometimes things areso fast we don't see that
development.
But they really develop becausethey have the ability to do it
through song.
We did an episode on that too,lily and I did an episode on the
.
Wicked.
Yeah, it was really fun.
We watched the movie and thenwe then we talked about all
those themes around friendshipand how you know at first like
(48:27):
you're afraid and you don't wantto associate, and then you know
when you get, when you you seethe what's right and those kinds
of things and being brave andlots of good things in there.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:40):
Have you read the book?
Yes, yeah, I mean, the book isso much richer.
I think the cinematography inthat movie was phenomenal, and I
of course saw the stageproduction too.
Dr. Jodi Aman (49:16):
The choreography in that movie was phenomenal,
and I, of course, saw the stageproduction too.
But the book you really see theangst, you really get into the
angst of the characters, andI've always been fascinated by
what makes someone evil.
We're typically not born thatway and so you really build
empathy for the wicked witch ofthe West when you read the book.
Exactly, exactly, so yeah,that's really great.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:26):
It's really great .
I think they did such a greatjob.
Sandy Zamalis (49:27):
Can't wait to the second one, I know right.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:28):
I did not realize the movie was just the first
half, so at the end, when itstopped, I went what?
Sandy Zamalis (49:37):
What Intermission my daughter's mad at me that I
haven't dug deeper to figure outwhat happens next, because I
don't know I'm going to watch iton stage somewhere, oh it's so
good, she's just got to find itand watch it on stage we tried
to go.
I actually had tickets to go.
I bought tickets for my mom andthen my husband and I were
(49:58):
going to take my mom for herbirthday and then COVID hit.
So wah, wah, All right.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:05):
So Dr Jodi how can our listeners find more of
you?
How can they work with you?
Dr. Jodi Aman (50:12):
How can they work with you?
How can they reach you?
Tell us where you are?
My website is JodiAmancomJ-O-D-I-A-M-A-Ncom.
You go, slash and live hearabout my live show.
It's Monday nights at 8 pm.
I have a call-in guest who I dolive coaching right on the show
, live counseling, so you canfind my books on there, hundreds
of videos.
I've done hundreds of videosfor over 10 years and so you can
(50:35):
find my books on there.
And the guide.
Get the guide.
You know, get that guide anddownload it and read it.
You could read it in like 20minutes and get so much
information about how to helpthe young people in your life.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:47):
Yeah, I loved it and it was so organized, and
each area that you talked aboutabout mattering, about agency
all of that was so clearlydelineated and with actionable
tips.
That's what we really love tooffer our listeners is
actionable tips, and so,listeners, you get it instantly
when you go to her website todownload it.
(51:10):
You don't have to wait.
Yeah, all right.
Well, we are out of time, so weneed to say goodbye to
everybody.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you would rather see ourfaces, you can find us on
YouTube at the Brainy Moms.
We would love it if you wouldleave us a five-star rating and
(51:31):
review on Apple Podcasts if youthink we're awesome.
But that is all the smart stuffthat we have for you today.
We hope you feel a little bitsmarter.
Catch you next time.
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