March 16, 2023 • 32 mins
Christina is the CEO of biotech startup Officinae Bio, and the former cofounder of the Innovation Lab of ViiV Healthcare, a joint venture between GSK, Pfizer, and Shionogi. Previously she held leadership positions at GSK and has spent her career at the forefront of healthcare innovation."
Repeat guest Christina, and I discuss all things leadership, how to manage successful innovation initiatives and their teams, and the pitfalls which can present themselves along the way.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to disrupt disruption. A series of intimate interviews
with global thought leaders and practitioners operating at the
intersection of business leadership and Technology, we
discussing all things, Innovation and disruption and
how to not only survive. But thrive in these times of
exponentially accelerating change, trusted by Seals,
Founders and leaders globally for the latest.
(00:23):
Take on business models methods,culture and Leadership.
We cut to the chase debunk, the hype and get real.
You're in great company. I'm your host, plus coffee net,
co-founder of be radical. Hey everybody this is Pascal.
We are back with another episodeof disrupt disruption today.
(00:43):
We have a repeat guests, Christina Shiva.
She was on one of our very firstepisodes where we talked about
disruption if you haven't listened to it definitely do.
So we'll put a link into the show notes her insides made it
into the book disrupt disruptionwhere former If to actually
write the book and I'm really excited to have Christina back,
(01:04):
her job title has slightly changed.
She is now the co founder and the CEO of oficina bio and we
want to talk today about leadership which really is the
new next era for us to look intowhen it comes to disruption
because really ultimately Innovation a disruptions done by
people and that has a lot to do with leadership.
(01:25):
So welcome Christine. I'm so excited to have you back
then. A cow.
You're so kind to them. Yeah, very privileged to be
back. Thank you, Christina.
How do we think about leadership?
When you hear the word? What is the first Association
you actually have? We get it so wrong.
(01:45):
Well, I mean, you know, I've been thinking it really a lot of
for the last few years about leadership and there was a point
when I was like, no, the way thedefinitions that we have are
wrong. Then I started thinking of My
definitions that I'm like, but that sounds similar to a lot of
the current are and that got me thinking.
(02:07):
So what is it? And I think actually the big
problem with leadership is that there is no definition of it.
That is a great and everybody has something in their head.
Whereas in reality, there is nothing that is agreed and that
(02:27):
causes a problem because Becausethe versions that we have in our
head have been in a way formed throughout, kind of a bringing,
it they reflect certain Society,certain Norms that were part of
certain cultures. And so on, whereas now
particularly, when we organization start really trying
(02:50):
to get diversity, you start asking yourself the question
about. Okay.
Can everybody fit into one model?
Of leadership. And so I started thinking a few
various one is, there is historically in the western
(03:11):
societies, there has always beenkind of a heroic leader, one
person at the top and almost no one, no one else.
Whereas the reality is it never is the the case and we often
have appointed leaders. But if you look at the society
today, you're actually starting to see quite a lot of people who
(03:35):
become leaders think of the influencers, right?
And the organization's yet, don't don't quite reflect that.
So that's one of the place appointment, versus the new
models. Then the other thought, in my
head has been and we can go in those because I know they're
they're not structured is actually as I said the Western
(03:56):
Society very often has He had one kind of central figure
whereas if you look at societiesouts outside of the western
culture and some of the prehistoric different types of
leaders are appointed for different needs or are selected
for different needs. So that made me thinking about,
okay, from an organizational point of view is the person who
(04:20):
is put as the head as the CEO, as whatever are they always the
leader. And what's their role or do?
You almost need to have different types of leaders?
And I read an article, which I will share with you.
I think was a chain from MIT or Harvard.
Gosh, I'll check the Pascal anyway.
(04:41):
So, and he talks about the movieSet where you have the director,
but you have the lead actor, is the Stars.
You have the field of people whofilm and so on, and each and
every one a screenwriters. It actually takes a lead.
(05:02):
And yet, you get it together. And I think that starts to be
was probably the best example ofwhat I think leadership needs to
become a different people. Taking the Baton in certain
stages and moving forward, of course, that leads to the
(05:24):
question how the organization functions, but that's probably
management. It's so interesting.
What you said, I think we can see and feel and can point out
bad leadership when we see it. And I think most of us can also
point out, good leadership when they experience it.
But I think very few of us can actually put a finger on.
(05:45):
What does it actually mean? What's the formula if there is
one? I'm so curious, he said
something, which made my ears prick up.
You talked about influencers as a model of leaders, which makes
me question. And if our organizational
structures even support that, and if so, how do we build
organizational structures, whichcan support more of an
(06:07):
influencer driven leadership? If that's something which is
desirable, If it's desirable mean, I gave it as an example
because these people are leadersright there, I put themselves
out there whether we like everyone or not, but they get
people to followed a literally follow them right and and they
yield certain power for certain interest.
(06:30):
The organizational structures are something that they
absolutely need to change in my mind because if you look, I
think the orc structures, reflect the technology of the
day, And the current dark structures come from Taylor from
the beginning of last century ifI remember correctly the time so
and that was the great right Invasion.
(06:52):
At the time, we're kind of the mechanics engineering the
technology of the of the day wasbeing literally being adopted.
And he made fantastic progress with the steel mills and so on
but if you think about the technology of today is much more
distributed its networks which time Then determines the way,
(07:13):
the communication flows, right? So if the hierarchy makes sense
because of the way, communication flows hierarchy,
doesn't make sense in an organization where the
communications flows are very different.
And the sensing of what's happening is it's very
(07:34):
different. It's a different parts of the
organization and travels in different way.
So we definitely To have a different structures.
The question, of course, is whatare they?
And how you get a, how you get to those structures?
I mean, they are organizations that are using kind of micro
(07:55):
Enterprises, which give more opposition it, and they can
choose their HR, their legal andso on inside outside of the
ecosystem, this gives much more autonomy to people, right?
I'm a big believer, that new forms of structural.
Journeyed to emerge that allow those who want to create
(08:16):
something new and ultimately leadership is actually about
creating something new and better.
To emerge and then, of course, depending on the stage of the
organization, some form of this might be simple problem
management. How do you maintain something to
function? And they're both are equally
(08:37):
important. I'm curious u.s.
CEO of a startup company. How do you think about setting
up your own organizational structure and your own
leadership and the leadership you instill in others very much
thinking about how We create this type of more fluid
(08:58):
organization and it of course depends on what the company is
doing. But one of the things we are
thinking about is, is there a way in which?
Actually there certain Functionsthat are could be part of a
manager. But could they be done by a
different person who simply that's their job, more like
(09:19):
project manager type of work? Whereas let a certain others,
like people development are partof somebody.
Somebody else, they are models in which we are looking again,
depending on how how the organization evolves and the
science evolves, because they depend, but they are models
where you You could play with ifyou want to create different
(09:43):
products, should every product be owned by the company or could
it be partially owned by the company, right?
And then you start to have a bitmore kind of network type of
organization. So you've been part of large
organizations, now you're part of a start-up, I have
experienced in my career very often, the breakdown of
(10:05):
organizational structures and the very dramatic shift of
organizational structures when you get to dunbar's Bar.
So this idea that you can, in a social context, you can keep
about 150 or so relationships inyour head.
And once you get beyond that, really something fundamentally
shifts. How do you think about
leadership and an organization structure in these in these two
(10:26):
contacts? If you have seen those I've been
part of big organizations. And actually, what I've seen in
big organizations is that you have the group CEO of the whole
company, and that creates a certain Vibe and More Much More
Than A vibe, but they are felled.
(10:48):
But at the end, usually, these people are far removed.
So particularly if you're not inthe headquarters, it's actually
your general manager. It's you're probably than the
original head. It.
And these people, I think the best examples of leadership of
(11:12):
people like this that I've seen are when they have been able to
show Really, to understand the specifics understand the
corporate strategy and you can see them pushing back or I mean
not just being a Yes, Man of thetop and being able to adapt that
(11:37):
thing that comes to Global strategy for the local for the
local environment. For me, comes back to the
structure, right? If if the something works If you
are the leader and you create the context and criteria of what
needs to happen, what you expectand you manage as per outcomes.
But you don't say much about what needs to be done.
(11:58):
You live it to the local team todecide within the certain
parameters, but then you're ableto have the tough conversations
and manage performance. If that doesn't happen, I think
you could get probably the best of both worlds.
Because I've seen companies go from very Descent of a kind of
autonomous structures. Is still reporting but
autonomous to very centralized and I think that balancing
(12:23):
between is difficult to maintain, it is because in my
mind the performance criteria and are not clear.
Yes we have the budgets and things like this but very often
you can with good storytelling you can get your way out when
you look at it leader in this context what do you think are
(12:44):
the qualities? You need to bring as a leader
like Guilds abilities. How do you really show up as a
good leader? These days?
I've been kind of thinking a lotabout this and for me, the key
thing is that I almost used to say that no one should be
(13:04):
leading other people unless theyhave done some really deep in a
work. So, the first thing for me is,
do you lead from your ego, or doyou lead from a place of
self-acceptance? And obviously, we all All have
egos and we can function withoutegos.
The question is the awareness and how comfortable one is with
(13:25):
themselves regardless of the situation or what is happening
and so that's probably the key thing for me.
Really what's the starting point?
Do you know yourself enough? To know how you react when you
are provoked. I mean I've had situations where
in Fairly kind of dancing hostile situation.
(13:49):
I reacted to someone saying something and I really kind of
reacted, I like know the door and then I felt very bad about
that and I was reflecting. Why was I that provoked?
And I and I realized I was provoked because I was feeling
constantly on the back foot, like I'm fighting and so I'm
(14:09):
like, okay but Why what, what isit?
What do I believe about? What these my team believes
about me. And this actually really helped
me to realize that people are trying to do their best and they
are often stressed for the exactsame reason.
(14:31):
I've missed rest Pride, what would she think about me?
And in most cases they're reallydoing their best Best.
So it's my job. I have to accept that that that
the starting point if their malicious, I need to understand
and deal with it. If they are not capable of
performing at the standard, it'smy part of my role to make sure
(14:56):
I get them or I move them to a place where it works for
everyone because no one feels good, if they can't deliver a
war. Most of the people don't want
feel good if they can deliver. But if I wasn't Thinking about
it. I was like, how can they do
that? That's not acceptable, behavior.
Lala so self, self exists. So which where you live from,
(15:19):
which then leads to me, something that's super
important, which is humility, and everybody, or a lot of
people talk about it, but our culture's are very much form
driven. So Forest how you come across,
how you speak, and so on and much.
So substance, The Raven and humidity.
It's Go to be seen immediately and recognized as a leadership
(15:44):
as leadership quality. But it's super important because
if you operate from the I know it or I know it best, then it's
really no point in our world, it's more about how can I make
sure that the best information is put to the table and the best
(16:06):
decision for the situation is made and for this, you need to
be humble. So these are probably the key,
the key things that I would are really appreciate in a little
because then they, They create other conditions for the person
to be, much more inclusive. And to listen, you said
something like, I love this image, the you evoked, an ocean
(16:29):
between form driven service and substance driven curious to hear
your thoughts. I remember maybe seven years ago
or so when a particular when I was at Singularity University,
the infamous valve and the book came out.
So valve being a game developer,you might have seen this.
So the whole idea behind valves,organizational structure was
pure me. Chakra.
See, and the idea was the personwho can rally the resources is
(16:53):
the person who gets the resources.
So, if you're a game developer, you've got a great idea, you
rally a team around it. The idea was that if you can
convince others to follow you, then there is momentum.
And thus, when there is momentum, then we fund the
project Etc. Valve released this as a PDF
handbook, it became Super Famous.
(17:13):
I remember very many of my colleagues running around like
this is the future of leadership.
And of course, As all of these systems, turn into a variant of
the, the Lord of the Flies, if that's, if I remember that book
correctly. So it's basically a shitshow, so
pardon my language. But it's a shit show of the, the
most egocentric form driven. Most loudly, and often energetic
(17:34):
and enigmatic leaders get the resources, not actually the best
person to lead a project or the best project, so it kind of like
collapse on itself. Curious, how do you think about
this in the context of leadership like, how do you
avoid? Avoid that trap.
How do you avoid a replay of theLord of the Flies, which we seem
to have every single time? That's a very Point personal for
(17:59):
me because I've always had this kind of conflict in my head but
of course you have to deliver itand that's think that matter.
And then you realize painfully that that actually doesn't
matter in a lot of organizationsor doesn't matter that much.
Exactly because the first reaction to which respondent is
the form the enthusiasm the yeahthe excitement and someone can
(18:23):
can create a new consideration in VC world.
World very, very well. So it's another another thing.
So, for me, what I've seen from really the best leaders are then
to be able to discern the. So now if your entire
meritocracy so I give the idea and and then there is no veto of
house or if they if you take theinfluencer model to the extreme
(18:45):
which seems like that was the model the trouble, obviously
becomes that, that's not enough.You need, that's the movie Set,
you need a link, that's not the movie said, that's the After
having I have a great idea but then being unable to create the
best thing. So how do we avoid this?
For me. It comes down to The realizing
(19:10):
and the respecting, the different roles in the in the
team. Yes you are creating the most
excitement so people want to do it but before you get the
resources, how we gonna execute if it needs to be a meritocracy.
If we take this, if then you need to present your whole plan
to the people, people will startasking questions and you start
(19:33):
to have this mechanism. So I haven't thought how you
deal this in the context of food.
Ooh, kind of really to the end without any oversight from board
of directors or something like this, but I, if I have to
implement that model out, then definitely say, okay, you get
the resources. That's a three or four ideas
(19:53):
that everybody want to Pursuit. Let's now everybody.
Look at how we gonna Implement those ideas.
Where is the risks, how who are the best people?
And also is the person whose idea are they The best to lead.
What's their role on the team? Or do we need?
Somebody else that actually doormanage in this case to ensure
(20:14):
the execution? So it's just being aware of
where the pitfalls are not running.
Just with the idea without thinking.
How do you think about diversityin this context?
One of the challenges I find at least is We all seem to agree.
Finally, that diversity matters.We all encourage diversity.
(20:37):
We get trained in diversity and inclusion etcetera.
And yet I find still in companies that very often
diversity is more of a it's moreof a concept and more maybe more
of a lip service rather than a an actual experience.
And I think it comes down to leadership and organizational
(20:58):
structures from your experience.How do you have Foster, a truly
diverse environment. High-performing environment.
So for me one of the key things that I've started to try and
differentiate its between what Iexpect the leader to achieve and
the how the way. So the way I look at it you have
(21:20):
you have what needs to be achieved, right?
And I for example, the leader needs to ensure that the team
delivers and the goals are achieved or the appropriate
objectives are greeted with the team, but then it's a mess.
Of style or embodiment of that leadership.
So I wouldn't expect everyone tobe at the beginning.
(21:42):
It's Shouting and rallying the troops in kind of very much,
Steve Ballmer away if I can havebecause the image that comes to
my mind because a day might not be the person.
Be that might not be appropriatefor the culture in for the
environment. Like, when I was in Latvia, I
mean such type of leadership wasreally not well.
(22:05):
Except it's like, people would react because it's a different,
very different culture, they needed a and moment in time,
they needed a different way of motivation and inspiration.
So the form or the style, the embodiment of how you get people
inspired to do, how you deal with performance is something
(22:25):
where they versity matters, right?
Because I do care how someone gets their mean, I care about it
being ethical inclusive and so on.
But in a way, Whether it is the person's very quiet, but able to
touch the soul of or the president's really injecting
energy into everybody, and that's where it comes.
(22:46):
So that the diversity is really important.
I don't have the right answer, that's how I kind of way of
approaching. And the other thing is being
very open because one of the keythings for me in leading others
is about how you're able to do it to lead a difficult
conversation, whether you go there.
And yes, you deliver the news and that's it or you go, there
(23:10):
you have a point of view which you expect the other person may
not like may not be but you are able to listen to them and
perhaps even change some of yourperspective.
And it's the same way that I think would be the worst if we
have a whole, if we are aware that we have a kind of a
Prejudice, or a concept of how leaders behave how people do
(23:34):
performers be. Behave.
But we are open that that might have a different embodiment,
then it starts to be probably a little bit more inclusive.
In your experience as a leader and also as being someone who
has followed a leader. Are there any tools any
(23:54):
practices? You found really worked really,
really well, and you kind of made your own as in like this is
something I do. I've spoken with many people
and, and for me, One of the key things has been empathy then
(24:18):
away. How do I treat others?
I mean to have empathy. In a situation, it has been a
really about being comfortable with who I am and being able to
to lead from a place where I cansay and believe in what I say.
(24:41):
And that's, that's something which I found it.
Really difficult in certain settings because there is
certain expectation. As I said of how a leader should
behave. And if I don't feel comfortable,
I can't play that role. So that's more public type of
things. The empathy has been very
(25:03):
important in defusing emotions and also understanding why
others who would behave, I had asituation where Someone was,
let's say wasn't giving me the correct information and I prefer
I've confirmed yet. Something has been done, a
certain things have been communicated and they weren't so
(25:26):
when I realized that they weren't, I was furious and I was
I was very indignant. Like why would they not tell me?
I mean, honestly, there was nothing so scary of not telling
it and then a friend, Of mine and Coach.
She said, okay, put yourself in the shoes of that person who
(25:48):
gave you this information. And I want you in first name to
say how they felt and why they did that and I'm like well they
know. No Christina you say I honestly
Pascal it just like that. The moment I said I kind of
thought I the penny dropped, huh?
(26:12):
And that was something that thenI had used in a situation with
my team where they were, they didn't want to do something and
my boss at the time was supposedto come.
Why would he come? And someone said, well let's
face it. He doesn't like them.
We don't like him and I use that.
(26:32):
And I said, so how do you think he feels when he needs to come
and see us? Oh, well, maybe he, no, no, no.
I First person second person andthen they said, okay we get it
and then that changed the conversation.
So this think about empathy allows you to make a decision
(26:54):
and move without The emotion because we all react, right?
And then, the third one that I've recently come across is
really to think about what I need to learn and what I need to
unlearn. So, in this, his book range,
David Epstein talks about that. And which from our experience,
(27:16):
what is the problem? We're facing, what the
situation. How can you go back down to
First principles? And then not say all my
experience is this This actuallymy experience was great but it's
totally irrelevant or maybe it'seven the wrong thing.
And that's another tool that's been super.
Super useful. Which again keeps you on the
(27:39):
home. Boasts.
I try to know what from your experience is relevant and what
you need to discard. This is an absolutely
fascinating conversation. I love how we're talking about
organizational structures and more organic, like the
influencer inspired structures, love how we talking about
empathy. And and humbleness one thing you
(28:03):
hear very consistently and I think it makes intuitive sense.
Is so looking at goal alignment?I when you look at topics like
high-performing leadership whichseems to be a thing.
Now they actually have an Acronym hpl.
It's kind of weird. Number one, Topic in
high-performing leadership is very often, like, the starting
point is a goal. Clear goal, alignment.
(28:25):
Everybody knows the the goal everybody has embodied it.
Everybody moves in the same direction and it makes intuitive
sense. Otherwise?
Yeah, if we don't know where to go, like we will go into all
kinds of different directions throughout your long career.
I'm curious. Have you seen approaches which
make that work? Better than just the leader
(28:48):
sitting there and just like yours to Gold.
Everybody. Read them.
Everybody signed with your bloodthat we agree on those goals.
Curious. Maybe.
As a last question, if you have any insights from your
perspective, how do you achieve that?
Yeah. And actually this leads me to
one of the thoughts I've or frustrations.
(29:09):
I have, as I seen organizations,it comes down to me to the
question who's team, which team is your, is your team.
So, what I mean by that, imagineyou have the leadership team of
a, let's say parrot, fairly not.So Big organization, but they
have their own team. So it's at least two tier
(29:29):
structure in the current set. So the thing is, is the
leadership. When you sit on the leadership
team, who is your team? Is that the leadership team, or
is that your own team that you are leading?
And that that's a concept, whichI read many years ago from
(29:50):
Patrick Lencioni, five, dysfunctions of a team which is
a brilliant, brilliant book. And adding for me, that's one of
the core things around the, the alignment getting alignment, so
have the trust so that you can have conflict and he uses the
word conflict. But then you have a commitment
(30:12):
because the decisions being madeyou've debated it There is no
kind of, yeah, they decided. And then you can have
accountability, which leads to results.
And then to the point of the alignment, the element is first,
how you come to the goals. And if you are the leader, you
should have some form of a direction of travel.
(30:33):
But you should also in my mind really get people together and
crystallized so that it's not one person says assess.
I obviously don't have an idea though to get there and then
Then for me, it's really about. Is this a team?
I maybe I'm oversimplifying, butif you have a team that's
(30:55):
working, if that teen sees themselves as they won't be
successful, unless the organization is successful, then
the alignment is much easier to achieve.
The shifting of resources is much easier to achieve and the
changing of the of the priorities.
Christina. This has been an absolutely
(31:17):
fascinating conversation on yourlast point about alignment, and
really starting with the team. I want to end this conversation,
we can speak for hours about this.
A really, really enjoyed your insights.
Again for me, you know, key takeaways, which really make me
think, is your notion around influencers and like this idea
(31:38):
of like, what can we actually learn from how we organize our
private lives these days and whom we follow in our private
lives, as How do we bring this into our organizational
structures? And then definitely, I love your
point about empathy and the seeing the other person out of
the eye perspective, even in thelanguage I'm using is really
(31:58):
powerful because it's very easy to talk about empathy.
I think it's a very different thing to actually have empathy
or like Express empathy in particular in a heated
situation. So with that being said
Christina, thank you so much. This was incredible.
Thank you. Thanks, Carl.
Hey, it's Pascal. Thanks for tuning in on this
episode of disrupt disruption. If you want more, check out the
(32:19):
other episodes we have on this podcast, and if you liked it, do
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insights from our guests out into the world.
If you have any questions, send me an email.
You can reach me at Pascal at fee net.com, thank you.
(32:40):
So Much for listening and I willhear you here soon.
Welcome to disrupt disruption. A series of intimate interviews
with global thought leaders and practitioners operating at the
intersection of business leadership and Technology, we
discussing all things, Innovation and disruption and
how to not only survive. But thrive in these times of
exponentially accelerating change, trusted by Seals,
Founders and leaders globally for the latest.
(00:23):
Take on business models methods,culture and Leadership.
We cut to the chase debunk, the hype and get real.
You're in great company. I'm your host, plus coffee net,
co-founder of be radical. Hey everybody this is Pascal.
We are back with another episodeof disrupt disruption today.
(00:43):
We have a repeat guests, Christina Shiva.
She was on one of our very firstepisodes where we talked about
disruption if you haven't listened to it definitely do.
So we'll put a link into the show notes her insides made it
into the book disrupt disruptionwhere former If to actually
write the book and I'm really excited to have Christina back,
(01:04):
her job title has slightly changed.
She is now the co founder and the CEO of oficina bio and we
want to talk today about leadership which really is the
new next era for us to look intowhen it comes to disruption
because really ultimately Innovation a disruptions done by
people and that has a lot to do with leadership.
(01:25):
So welcome Christine. I'm so excited to have you back
then. A cow.
You're so kind to them. Yeah, very privileged to be
back. Thank you, Christina.
How do we think about leadership?
When you hear the word? What is the first Association
you actually have? We get it so wrong.
(01:45):
Well, I mean, you know, I've been thinking it really a lot of
for the last few years about leadership and there was a point
when I was like, no, the way thedefinitions that we have are
wrong. Then I started thinking of My
definitions that I'm like, but that sounds similar to a lot of
the current are and that got me thinking.
(02:07):
So what is it? And I think actually the big
problem with leadership is that there is no definition of it.
That is a great and everybody has something in their head.
Whereas in reality, there is nothing that is agreed and that
(02:27):
causes a problem because Becausethe versions that we have in our
head have been in a way formed throughout, kind of a bringing,
it they reflect certain Society,certain Norms that were part of
certain cultures. And so on, whereas now
particularly, when we organization start really trying
(02:50):
to get diversity, you start asking yourself the question
about. Okay.
Can everybody fit into one model?
Of leadership. And so I started thinking a few
various one is, there is historically in the western
(03:11):
societies, there has always beenkind of a heroic leader, one
person at the top and almost no one, no one else.
Whereas the reality is it never is the the case and we often
have appointed leaders. But if you look at the society
today, you're actually starting to see quite a lot of people who
(03:35):
become leaders think of the influencers, right?
And the organization's yet, don't don't quite reflect that.
So that's one of the place appointment, versus the new
models. Then the other thought, in my
head has been and we can go in those because I know they're
they're not structured is actually as I said the Western
(03:56):
Society very often has He had one kind of central figure
whereas if you look at societiesouts outside of the western
culture and some of the prehistoric different types of
leaders are appointed for different needs or are selected
for different needs. So that made me thinking about,
okay, from an organizational point of view is the person who
(04:20):
is put as the head as the CEO, as whatever are they always the
leader. And what's their role or do?
You almost need to have different types of leaders?
And I read an article, which I will share with you.
I think was a chain from MIT or Harvard.
Gosh, I'll check the Pascal anyway.
(04:41):
So, and he talks about the movieSet where you have the director,
but you have the lead actor, is the Stars.
You have the field of people whofilm and so on, and each and
every one a screenwriters. It actually takes a lead.
(05:02):
And yet, you get it together. And I think that starts to be
was probably the best example ofwhat I think leadership needs to
become a different people. Taking the Baton in certain
stages and moving forward, of course, that leads to the
(05:24):
question how the organization functions, but that's probably
management. It's so interesting.
What you said, I think we can see and feel and can point out
bad leadership when we see it. And I think most of us can also
point out, good leadership when they experience it.
But I think very few of us can actually put a finger on.
(05:45):
What does it actually mean? What's the formula if there is
one? I'm so curious, he said
something, which made my ears prick up.
You talked about influencers as a model of leaders, which makes
me question. And if our organizational
structures even support that, and if so, how do we build
organizational structures, whichcan support more of an
(06:07):
influencer driven leadership? If that's something which is
desirable, If it's desirable mean, I gave it as an example
because these people are leadersright there, I put themselves
out there whether we like everyone or not, but they get
people to followed a literally follow them right and and they
yield certain power for certain interest.
(06:30):
The organizational structures are something that they
absolutely need to change in my mind because if you look, I
think the orc structures, reflect the technology of the
day, And the current dark structures come from Taylor from
the beginning of last century ifI remember correctly the time so
and that was the great right Invasion.
(06:52):
At the time, we're kind of the mechanics engineering the
technology of the of the day wasbeing literally being adopted.
And he made fantastic progress with the steel mills and so on
but if you think about the technology of today is much more
distributed its networks which time Then determines the way,
(07:13):
the communication flows, right? So if the hierarchy makes sense
because of the way, communication flows hierarchy,
doesn't make sense in an organization where the
communications flows are very different.
And the sensing of what's happening is it's very
(07:34):
different. It's a different parts of the
organization and travels in different way.
So we definitely To have a different structures.
The question, of course, is whatare they?
And how you get a, how you get to those structures?
I mean, they are organizations that are using kind of micro
(07:55):
Enterprises, which give more opposition it, and they can
choose their HR, their legal andso on inside outside of the
ecosystem, this gives much more autonomy to people, right?
I'm a big believer, that new forms of structural.
Journeyed to emerge that allow those who want to create
(08:16):
something new and ultimately leadership is actually about
creating something new and better.
To emerge and then, of course, depending on the stage of the
organization, some form of this might be simple problem
management. How do you maintain something to
function? And they're both are equally
(08:37):
important. I'm curious u.s.
CEO of a startup company. How do you think about setting
up your own organizational structure and your own
leadership and the leadership you instill in others very much
thinking about how We create this type of more fluid
(08:58):
organization and it of course depends on what the company is
doing. But one of the things we are
thinking about is, is there a way in which?
Actually there certain Functionsthat are could be part of a
manager. But could they be done by a
different person who simply that's their job, more like
(09:19):
project manager type of work? Whereas let a certain others,
like people development are partof somebody.
Somebody else, they are models in which we are looking again,
depending on how how the organization evolves and the
science evolves, because they depend, but they are models
where you You could play with ifyou want to create different
(09:43):
products, should every product be owned by the company or could
it be partially owned by the company, right?
And then you start to have a bitmore kind of network type of
organization. So you've been part of large
organizations, now you're part of a start-up, I have
experienced in my career very often, the breakdown of
(10:05):
organizational structures and the very dramatic shift of
organizational structures when you get to dunbar's Bar.
So this idea that you can, in a social context, you can keep
about 150 or so relationships inyour head.
And once you get beyond that, really something fundamentally
shifts. How do you think about
leadership and an organization structure in these in these two
(10:26):
contacts? If you have seen those I've been
part of big organizations. And actually, what I've seen in
big organizations is that you have the group CEO of the whole
company, and that creates a certain Vibe and More Much More
Than A vibe, but they are felled.
(10:48):
But at the end, usually, these people are far removed.
So particularly if you're not inthe headquarters, it's actually
your general manager. It's you're probably than the
original head. It.
And these people, I think the best examples of leadership of
(11:12):
people like this that I've seen are when they have been able to
show Really, to understand the specifics understand the
corporate strategy and you can see them pushing back or I mean
not just being a Yes, Man of thetop and being able to adapt that
(11:37):
thing that comes to Global strategy for the local for the
local environment. For me, comes back to the
structure, right? If if the something works If you
are the leader and you create the context and criteria of what
needs to happen, what you expectand you manage as per outcomes.
But you don't say much about what needs to be done.
(11:58):
You live it to the local team todecide within the certain
parameters, but then you're ableto have the tough conversations
and manage performance. If that doesn't happen, I think
you could get probably the best of both worlds.
Because I've seen companies go from very Descent of a kind of
autonomous structures. Is still reporting but
autonomous to very centralized and I think that balancing
(12:23):
between is difficult to maintain, it is because in my
mind the performance criteria and are not clear.
Yes we have the budgets and things like this but very often
you can with good storytelling you can get your way out when
you look at it leader in this context what do you think are
(12:44):
the qualities? You need to bring as a leader
like Guilds abilities. How do you really show up as a
good leader? These days?
I've been kind of thinking a lotabout this and for me, the key
thing is that I almost used to say that no one should be
(13:04):
leading other people unless theyhave done some really deep in a
work. So, the first thing for me is,
do you lead from your ego, or doyou lead from a place of
self-acceptance? And obviously, we all All have
egos and we can function withoutegos.
The question is the awareness and how comfortable one is with
(13:25):
themselves regardless of the situation or what is happening
and so that's probably the key thing for me.
Really what's the starting point?
Do you know yourself enough? To know how you react when you
are provoked. I mean I've had situations where
in Fairly kind of dancing hostile situation.
(13:49):
I reacted to someone saying something and I really kind of
reacted, I like know the door and then I felt very bad about
that and I was reflecting. Why was I that provoked?
And I and I realized I was provoked because I was feeling
constantly on the back foot, like I'm fighting and so I'm
(14:09):
like, okay but Why what, what isit?
What do I believe about? What these my team believes
about me. And this actually really helped
me to realize that people are trying to do their best and they
are often stressed for the exactsame reason.
(14:31):
I've missed rest Pride, what would she think about me?
And in most cases they're reallydoing their best Best.
So it's my job. I have to accept that that that
the starting point if their malicious, I need to understand
and deal with it. If they are not capable of
performing at the standard, it'smy part of my role to make sure
(14:56):
I get them or I move them to a place where it works for
everyone because no one feels good, if they can't deliver a
war. Most of the people don't want
feel good if they can deliver. But if I wasn't Thinking about
it. I was like, how can they do
that? That's not acceptable, behavior.
Lala so self, self exists. So which where you live from,
(15:19):
which then leads to me, something that's super
important, which is humility, and everybody, or a lot of
people talk about it, but our culture's are very much form
driven. So Forest how you come across,
how you speak, and so on and much.
So substance, The Raven and humidity.
It's Go to be seen immediately and recognized as a leadership
(15:44):
as leadership quality. But it's super important because
if you operate from the I know it or I know it best, then it's
really no point in our world, it's more about how can I make
sure that the best information is put to the table and the best
(16:06):
decision for the situation is made and for this, you need to
be humble. So these are probably the key,
the key things that I would are really appreciate in a little
because then they, They create other conditions for the person
to be, much more inclusive. And to listen, you said
something like, I love this image, the you evoked, an ocean
(16:29):
between form driven service and substance driven curious to hear
your thoughts. I remember maybe seven years ago
or so when a particular when I was at Singularity University,
the infamous valve and the book came out.
So valve being a game developer,you might have seen this.
So the whole idea behind valves,organizational structure was
pure me. Chakra.
See, and the idea was the personwho can rally the resources is
(16:53):
the person who gets the resources.
So, if you're a game developer, you've got a great idea, you
rally a team around it. The idea was that if you can
convince others to follow you, then there is momentum.
And thus, when there is momentum, then we fund the
project Etc. Valve released this as a PDF
handbook, it became Super Famous.
(17:13):
I remember very many of my colleagues running around like
this is the future of leadership.
And of course, As all of these systems, turn into a variant of
the, the Lord of the Flies, if that's, if I remember that book
correctly. So it's basically a shitshow, so
pardon my language. But it's a shit show of the, the
most egocentric form driven. Most loudly, and often energetic
(17:34):
and enigmatic leaders get the resources, not actually the best
person to lead a project or the best project, so it kind of like
collapse on itself. Curious, how do you think about
this in the context of leadership like, how do you
avoid? Avoid that trap.
How do you avoid a replay of theLord of the Flies, which we seem
to have every single time? That's a very Point personal for
(17:59):
me because I've always had this kind of conflict in my head but
of course you have to deliver itand that's think that matter.
And then you realize painfully that that actually doesn't
matter in a lot of organizationsor doesn't matter that much.
Exactly because the first reaction to which respondent is
the form the enthusiasm the yeahthe excitement and someone can
(18:23):
can create a new consideration in VC world.
World very, very well. So it's another another thing.
So, for me, what I've seen from really the best leaders are then
to be able to discern the. So now if your entire
meritocracy so I give the idea and and then there is no veto of
house or if they if you take theinfluencer model to the extreme
(18:45):
which seems like that was the model the trouble, obviously
becomes that, that's not enough.You need, that's the movie Set,
you need a link, that's not the movie said, that's the After
having I have a great idea but then being unable to create the
best thing. So how do we avoid this?
For me. It comes down to The realizing
(19:10):
and the respecting, the different roles in the in the
team. Yes you are creating the most
excitement so people want to do it but before you get the
resources, how we gonna execute if it needs to be a meritocracy.
If we take this, if then you need to present your whole plan
to the people, people will startasking questions and you start
(19:33):
to have this mechanism. So I haven't thought how you
deal this in the context of food.
Ooh, kind of really to the end without any oversight from board
of directors or something like this, but I, if I have to
implement that model out, then definitely say, okay, you get
the resources. That's a three or four ideas
(19:53):
that everybody want to Pursuit. Let's now everybody.
Look at how we gonna Implement those ideas.
Where is the risks, how who are the best people?
And also is the person whose idea are they The best to lead.
What's their role on the team? Or do we need?
Somebody else that actually doormanage in this case to ensure
(20:14):
the execution? So it's just being aware of
where the pitfalls are not running.
Just with the idea without thinking.
How do you think about diversityin this context?
One of the challenges I find at least is We all seem to agree.
Finally, that diversity matters.We all encourage diversity.
(20:37):
We get trained in diversity and inclusion etcetera.
And yet I find still in companies that very often
diversity is more of a it's moreof a concept and more maybe more
of a lip service rather than a an actual experience.
And I think it comes down to leadership and organizational
(20:58):
structures from your experience.How do you have Foster, a truly
diverse environment. High-performing environment.
So for me one of the key things that I've started to try and
differentiate its between what Iexpect the leader to achieve and
the how the way. So the way I look at it you have
(21:20):
you have what needs to be achieved, right?
And I for example, the leader needs to ensure that the team
delivers and the goals are achieved or the appropriate
objectives are greeted with the team, but then it's a mess.
Of style or embodiment of that leadership.
So I wouldn't expect everyone tobe at the beginning.
(21:42):
It's Shouting and rallying the troops in kind of very much,
Steve Ballmer away if I can havebecause the image that comes to
my mind because a day might not be the person.
Be that might not be appropriatefor the culture in for the
environment. Like, when I was in Latvia, I
mean such type of leadership wasreally not well.
(22:05):
Except it's like, people would react because it's a different,
very different culture, they needed a and moment in time,
they needed a different way of motivation and inspiration.
So the form or the style, the embodiment of how you get people
inspired to do, how you deal with performance is something
(22:25):
where they versity matters, right?
Because I do care how someone gets their mean, I care about it
being ethical inclusive and so on.
But in a way, Whether it is the person's very quiet, but able to
touch the soul of or the president's really injecting
energy into everybody, and that's where it comes.
(22:46):
So that the diversity is really important.
I don't have the right answer, that's how I kind of way of
approaching. And the other thing is being
very open because one of the keythings for me in leading others
is about how you're able to do it to lead a difficult
conversation, whether you go there.
And yes, you deliver the news and that's it or you go, there
(23:10):
you have a point of view which you expect the other person may
not like may not be but you are able to listen to them and
perhaps even change some of yourperspective.
And it's the same way that I think would be the worst if we
have a whole, if we are aware that we have a kind of a
Prejudice, or a concept of how leaders behave how people do
(23:34):
performers be. Behave.
But we are open that that might have a different embodiment,
then it starts to be probably a little bit more inclusive.
In your experience as a leader and also as being someone who
has followed a leader. Are there any tools any
(23:54):
practices? You found really worked really,
really well, and you kind of made your own as in like this is
something I do. I've spoken with many people
and, and for me, One of the key things has been empathy then
(24:18):
away. How do I treat others?
I mean to have empathy. In a situation, it has been a
really about being comfortable with who I am and being able to
to lead from a place where I cansay and believe in what I say.
(24:41):
And that's, that's something which I found it.
Really difficult in certain settings because there is
certain expectation. As I said of how a leader should
behave. And if I don't feel comfortable,
I can't play that role. So that's more public type of
things. The empathy has been very
(25:03):
important in defusing emotions and also understanding why
others who would behave, I had asituation where Someone was,
let's say wasn't giving me the correct information and I prefer
I've confirmed yet. Something has been done, a
certain things have been communicated and they weren't so
(25:26):
when I realized that they weren't, I was furious and I was
I was very indignant. Like why would they not tell me?
I mean, honestly, there was nothing so scary of not telling
it and then a friend, Of mine and Coach.
She said, okay, put yourself in the shoes of that person who
(25:48):
gave you this information. And I want you in first name to
say how they felt and why they did that and I'm like well they
know. No Christina you say I honestly
Pascal it just like that. The moment I said I kind of
thought I the penny dropped, huh?
(26:12):
And that was something that thenI had used in a situation with
my team where they were, they didn't want to do something and
my boss at the time was supposedto come.
Why would he come? And someone said, well let's
face it. He doesn't like them.
We don't like him and I use that.
(26:32):
And I said, so how do you think he feels when he needs to come
and see us? Oh, well, maybe he, no, no, no.
I First person second person andthen they said, okay we get it
and then that changed the conversation.
So this think about empathy allows you to make a decision
(26:54):
and move without The emotion because we all react, right?
And then, the third one that I've recently come across is
really to think about what I need to learn and what I need to
unlearn. So, in this, his book range,
David Epstein talks about that. And which from our experience,
(27:16):
what is the problem? We're facing, what the
situation. How can you go back down to
First principles? And then not say all my
experience is this This actuallymy experience was great but it's
totally irrelevant or maybe it'seven the wrong thing.
And that's another tool that's been super.
Super useful. Which again keeps you on the
(27:39):
home. Boasts.
I try to know what from your experience is relevant and what
you need to discard. This is an absolutely
fascinating conversation. I love how we're talking about
organizational structures and more organic, like the
influencer inspired structures, love how we talking about
empathy. And and humbleness one thing you
(28:03):
hear very consistently and I think it makes intuitive sense.
Is so looking at goal alignment?I when you look at topics like
high-performing leadership whichseems to be a thing.
Now they actually have an Acronym hpl.
It's kind of weird. Number one, Topic in
high-performing leadership is very often, like, the starting
point is a goal. Clear goal, alignment.
(28:25):
Everybody knows the the goal everybody has embodied it.
Everybody moves in the same direction and it makes intuitive
sense. Otherwise?
Yeah, if we don't know where to go, like we will go into all
kinds of different directions throughout your long career.
I'm curious. Have you seen approaches which
make that work? Better than just the leader
(28:48):
sitting there and just like yours to Gold.
Everybody. Read them.
Everybody signed with your bloodthat we agree on those goals.
Curious. Maybe.
As a last question, if you have any insights from your
perspective, how do you achieve that?
Yeah. And actually this leads me to
one of the thoughts I've or frustrations.
(29:09):
I have, as I seen organizations,it comes down to me to the
question who's team, which team is your, is your team.
So, what I mean by that, imagineyou have the leadership team of
a, let's say parrot, fairly not.So Big organization, but they
have their own team. So it's at least two tier
(29:29):
structure in the current set. So the thing is, is the
leadership. When you sit on the leadership
team, who is your team? Is that the leadership team, or
is that your own team that you are leading?
And that that's a concept, whichI read many years ago from
(29:50):
Patrick Lencioni, five, dysfunctions of a team which is
a brilliant, brilliant book. And adding for me, that's one of
the core things around the, the alignment getting alignment, so
have the trust so that you can have conflict and he uses the
word conflict. But then you have a commitment
(30:12):
because the decisions being madeyou've debated it There is no
kind of, yeah, they decided. And then you can have
accountability, which leads to results.
And then to the point of the alignment, the element is first,
how you come to the goals. And if you are the leader, you
should have some form of a direction of travel.
(30:33):
But you should also in my mind really get people together and
crystallized so that it's not one person says assess.
I obviously don't have an idea though to get there and then
Then for me, it's really about. Is this a team?
I maybe I'm oversimplifying, butif you have a team that's
(30:55):
working, if that teen sees themselves as they won't be
successful, unless the organization is successful, then
the alignment is much easier to achieve.
The shifting of resources is much easier to achieve and the
changing of the of the priorities.
Christina. This has been an absolutely
(31:17):
fascinating conversation on yourlast point about alignment, and
really starting with the team. I want to end this conversation,
we can speak for hours about this.
A really, really enjoyed your insights.
Again for me, you know, key takeaways, which really make me
think, is your notion around influencers and like this idea
(31:38):
of like, what can we actually learn from how we organize our
private lives these days and whom we follow in our private
lives, as How do we bring this into our organizational
structures? And then definitely, I love your
point about empathy and the seeing the other person out of
the eye perspective, even in thelanguage I'm using is really
(31:58):
powerful because it's very easy to talk about empathy.
I think it's a very different thing to actually have empathy
or like Express empathy in particular in a heated
situation. So with that being said
Christina, thank you so much. This was incredible.
Thank you. Thanks, Carl.
Hey, it's Pascal. Thanks for tuning in on this
episode of disrupt disruption. If you want more, check out the
(32:19):
other episodes we have on this podcast, and if you liked it, do
us a favor. Go on your podcasting platform
of choice, iTunes, Google play, whatever it is, and leave a
quick review, it helps tremendously with getting the
insights from our guests out into the world.
If you have any questions, send me an email.
You can reach me at Pascal at fee net.com, thank you.
(32:40):
So Much for listening and I willhear you here soon.
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