In this episode, we welcome Stefanie Klein, who leads the international initiative Women4Metals at Aurubis AG. With years of experience in the male-dominated metals industry, Stefanie is dedicated to making women in heavy industry more visible and empowered. Her work demonstrates that diversity is a business imperative, essential for driving cultural transformation across an entire sector.
Stefanie explains that the push for diversity at her company is not just a social good but a strategic necessity. It addresses the critical “war for talent” by widening the talent pool and brings diverse perspectives to the table, leading to more sustainable and robust business decisions. The core philosophy of her initiative is to “fix the system, not the women,” focusing on changing the corporate framework to be more inclusive rather than trying to change the women within it. This involves making female role models more visible to attract others and fostering genuine male allyship.
For individuals navigating their careers, especially in traditional industries, Stefanie offers clear, actionable advice. She stresses the importance of building a diverse professional network and seeking out sponsorship, noting that women are often “over-mentored but under-sponsored.” Her final guidance for young people is to remain curious, be proactive in connecting with companies, and stay open to all opportunities, particularly in STEM fields where there is immense potential for growth and impact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Disrupt disruption. But to be honest, sometimes I
don't like the word empowerment because I think we don't need to
fix the women. Women have power.
We need to fix the system the height.
Hey everybody, Pascal here. Time for another episode of
Disrupt Disruption. Today's guest, Stephanie Klein
(00:26):
brings many years of experience in industry and international
environment to. The table after.
Working in wholesale and foreigntrade and completing her
business degree in Industrial Management and Marketing, she
joined our Rubis AG in 2010, inspired by a woman who first
opened her eyes to the opportunities within the
traditionally male dominated metals industry.
(00:49):
Since 2022, she's been leading the international initiative
Women for Metals, which makes women in the metals and heavy
industry more visible, connectedand empowered and.
Actively. Contributes to driving the
cultural transformation toward more diversity.
Stephanie stands for a hands on,solution oriented approach and
(01:10):
demonstrates how real change foran entire industry can start
from within a single company when people of all genders are
truly engaged. Her works proves.
Diversity isn't just a nice to have, it's a business
imperative. She lives in Hamburg today,
which is in the north of Germany.
In her free time, she's passionate about sports.
(01:31):
She serves, plays tennis, and enjoys watching sports just as
much as taking part herself. With that being said, we are
going to have an amazing and truly fascinating conversation
about what it actually means to lead in not only an industry
which is male dominated as a female leader, but also in an
(01:52):
environment which is rapidly changing.
And at the same time, some things stay the same.
So with that being said, let's dig in.
Steffi. It's.
Great to have you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for making thetime.
Thank you so much for having me.It's amazing to be here.
So a little bit of a benefit forthe listener.
We met at the Embrace Festival in Berlin, which is an HRHR tech
(02:17):
festival, and I was so impressed.
You were part of a workshop we held there.
And I was so impressed by your story because you operate in an
industry which is so heavily male dominated, probably one of
the most male dominated industries I would imagine on
the planet, metals. And I'd be so curious to if you
(02:38):
could start us off with a littlebit of like, how did you get
into this? Yeah.
Thank you so much. I also was very impressed
meeting you in this great workshop.
So this was also very inspiring.Actually, my story is really
funny because I never studied mythology or had something to do
with metals before. I am, I'm coming from a
completely different industry, but actually a woman raised an
(03:01):
awareness for this industry and she was a friend of me and she
informed me and said, oh, Stephie, you have to apply for
this industry. You have to send them an
application. This would be something for you.
And you know what? I didn't ask myself if this is a
good idea. I just followed her because I
know, OK, she's a great woman. She's doing great things.
(03:21):
And yeah, I'm very convinced. OK, this is something great for
me as well. And I'm now since this month, 15
years working at Abu Whistle. This is a long period and we
often see this in our work. So I'm, I have the chance to
leading an initiative called Women for Metals here at Aubus,
who was deeply working on these topics.
And we see a lot of women who attract other women.
(03:43):
So you need to see of course of women in this industry to have
the idea and to understand, OK, this could be also something for
me and this could be a good place to work.
So this was a little bit my starting point.
And yeah, was this initiative. We really would like to drive a
change forward to make our industry attractive for all
genders. And yeah, to welcome everybody.
(04:04):
And as you said in the beginning, of course, due to the
history, this is a very male dominated industry.
I'd be curious to understand from a business perspective.
So outside of the IT is the right thing for us to do.
Curious to hear a company like Arubas, why are they doing this?
What's the, they must be a driver for their bottom line as
(04:24):
well. Absolutely.
At the very first beginning, this was actually also a
grassroot initiative. So it comes out of the company I
think, which is very special. And at the beginning we did this
in our free time because we didn't have an official order
and we didn't know, OK, what is everybody's thinking about this?
Of course, we had at this time on the, I mean in the board and
(04:46):
yeah, then we just started to giving us a vision, giving us
some aims, why do we want to do this?
And then we asked the chance to present it to our board and they
were really happy with this and that, OK, this very important
topic also for our best, for us,we're doing this internally, but
also for the whole industry because there's a big lack of
(05:08):
women in this industry. And on one hand, I think there
is it's a value to have equalityalso on the companies to have
the same numbers of women as menin a company.
But of course, there's also a business background because it's
not only a nice to have, becausewe all do have this lack of
(05:28):
professionals in the future. And we need women, of course, on
board. We cannot afford to have only a
look on the very male side. And yeah, didn't have an eye on
the female employees in the world outside.
And of course, and this is really important to our CEO who
is the big sponsor of the initiative.
It's also to have diverse perspective, to have all
(05:52):
perspectives in every decision you are making.
It might be probably at the beginning and longer way, but at
the end, better way, the most sustainable way because you have
all perspectives inside and not historical wise, the only male
perspective inside. So I think there are many good
reasons for us as company to do this.
(06:15):
And yeah, to really change something and to drive the
culture change forward with this.
So interesting. I'd be curious, you already
mentioned like the notion aroundthe war for talent, like the
lack of like just available talent to companies these days,
which is a thing we hear from lots and lots of our clients
(06:35):
across industries. I'd be curious in an industry
which is on the perception side,so male dominated, how do you
attract female talent into this industry?
How do you not make them go, man, this is not for me.
This is this is just man, I don't want to be there.
What's the strategy there? Yeah, it's really important to
(06:55):
start very early. So we are also concentrating on
schools, concentrating on universities, because these
stereotypes you cannot broken this early enough.
Of course, in the future. You had always made colleagues
on advertising and yeah, on documentations or yeah,
profiles. And I think it's really
(07:16):
important to show that we have already great women working at
Arubas or working in our whole industry.
But you have to give them a case, you have to make them
visible. And as I said in the very first
beginning, we know women attractother women.
So if I see, OK, there are already women working in the
surrounding, then I have the idea, OK, this could be also
(07:36):
tempted for me. If I only see men on the
pictures, then I never come to this idea, OK, this could be
something for me. And we also we are do very
strong work together with schools and universities because
we know that there are no differences in girls and boys.
If they are interested in the steep topics.
It's the way how they raised, raised up in families, it's the
(07:59):
way how they have contact with companies like this, with
industries or if they are connected to other things.
And so we are exactly doing this.
So we are getting a lot of guards to our company and
showing them that this is reallyinteresting and this is a really
fascinating industry, especiallywhen you're going to driving a
new technologies, all these materials matters are inside of
(08:22):
these technologies. So it's really needed.
And also as a girl or as a woman, you can be everything and
work everywhere. And I think we have to tell
these stories and to, yeah, showour role models and also giving,
of course, our people who are working in our company, our
women, a satisfaction to showingthem and to say, OK, this is
(08:43):
really important and we need more of you.
And you mentioned you been in this particular role or this
company for the last 15 years. I'd be curious to hear surely
your industry has gone through alot of change in terms of
automation and botics and like different skill set needed.
I'm curious to hear like a reflection like how do you think
(09:07):
that place of work is changing for your people?
What are the skills you are now looking for?
Surely, I assume they're like different from what they were 15
years ago. I have to correct.
I'm not working for 15 years in this position in which I'm now
because I started later this initiative.
Yeah, but of course there are a lot of changes and I think this
(09:27):
has a lot to do with these skills you which are becoming
more and more valuable, especially when looking into AI,
when looking into all these automatization.
I think this human skills are becoming more and more important
like empathy, like curiosity. Yeah, I think we have to also in
an industry like ours, this is becoming more and more
(09:49):
important. And I think what is also really
important is the culture, the way on how we work together.
And as we always said, our initiative is more to drive the
whole industry forward or to shape the whole industry.
Because if we are reaching women, I'm pretty sure we are
reaching everybody. Because also for men, it is more
(10:11):
and more important to to have more flexibility, the way how we
talk with each other, the way how we cooperate with each
other. It's not only always about the
mothers. They are also fathers in the
room who would like to take care.
And I think it's coming more andmore important for nearly
everybody. Yeah, I think I'm curious.
(10:33):
Without a doubt. We hear like topics like, oh, we
need to teach kids more empathy or we need to foster more
empathy. We need to look into curiosity,
flexibility in in many ways, at least my observation is that's
not something we still not necessarily really teach at in
schools or in universities. So how do you think we can get
(10:55):
people to what's your approach in like getting those skills to
people? You're absolutely right.
I'm saying I don't know how it is in the US, but I think in
Germany school probably need to do much more also to to play
this industry topic or the the ways the kids are going after
school. What could be the ideas and just
(11:18):
a little exactly that we're doing this here at Hamburg.
We're doing hero days only for girls.
So we are playing metallurgy heroes, female days or chemical
hero days or electronical hero days.
So we are inviting only little kids, only girls to acts and
showing them what we are doing, showing how interesting it is.
(11:41):
And yeah, also try to make them curious about what we are doing,
showing them all searching the thoughts important that it not
always have to be one straight way in your life so that there
are different possibilities to to, yeah, make make your way.
So I'm the best example for this.
And also to connecting them withfemale role models who are
(12:02):
already in the industry. And I think there is a lot of
room for improvement here in ourcompany.
We are also doing a lot of things for women, not only for
women. I think that's also important.
Women for Methods is open for everybody because we cannot
solve the topic alone. That should be a topic where
everybody is included. And for example, we are doing
(12:26):
also kind of empowerment sessionwhere we are talking about
special skills like this. But to be honest, sometimes I
don't like the word empowerment because I think we don't need to
fix the women. Women have power.
We need to fix the system behindand this is exactly what we need
to do here at Arubas as well. And I think that's also very
(12:47):
important that women for metricsis more than an initiative.
It's more than a network, sorry.It's an initiative because we
really would like to change something.
We would like to change the framework condition so that
everybody feels welcome. And of course, this has not only
to do with women, because 85 of my percent of my colleagues are
mid. This has to do with everybody of
(13:10):
us. Yeah.
And where do you see this going in the future?
So we we seem to find ourselves a little bit at a crossroads
like here in the United States clearly like a DUI is like and
be curious to hear is where do you like what's the vision for
the future? As you mentioned, you're at 85%,
so 15% women in the industry, still quite a long ways to go, I
(13:32):
guess to quality. Curious to, to understand like
what's the vector for you? So our big vision is to continue
what we are doing because as yousaid, it's not an easy way and
it's more a marathon than a sprit.
But we have to stay clear on ourway.
And I think exactly in these times, you can make a real
(13:53):
difference because we are seeingalso other companies in Germany
reacting on things you said. But I think if this is something
which belongs to you and to yourcompany and to your values you
would like to stand for, then you have to be on this part.
And I'm really proud that we aredoing exactly doing this.
And this is so important for ourcompany because it's about the
(14:15):
values. Our CE OS see the need that
diverse perspective, diverse teams and the better do have the
better performance in the end. So it's not a nice to have.
It's also a business team. And I think and especially in
this tired here, you can, you can make a difference.
And as I see it's still a lot ofroom for improvement.
(14:36):
I see the need to do a lot of things.
So the best thing would be if I don't have a job anymore, then
everything is fine. But I say we took out a little
bit. Yeah, for sure.
And then looking into the future, staying in that theme of
looking into the future, if you're thinking about skills and
leadership, and I'm sure you talk to a lot of young people in
(14:57):
the beginning of careers, what is it you?
What is it you recommend for them?
It's always, I find it always interesting as I'm at these
conferences and people always say, oh, it's empathy and it's
curiosity. And then it's so be more
empathetic. I was like, oh, that's great,
but what does that even mean? How do I do this?
Curious? Like when you speak to like
young women leaders or like someone fresh out of college
(15:17):
saying, I'm figuring this out, what is it you tell them?
I think on one hand it's really important for you to have your
own network to raise your network in the company.
And I think what is also important your network should
not be only out made out of women only.
So I think you should also have a diverse network in the
(15:38):
company. And exactly with our initiative
you would like to do this to also to support people to
connect you to, yeah, to bring you in the heads of everybody.
I was once in a pen and there a men said women are sometimes
over mentored but under sponsored and I love this
(15:58):
sentence. And he said exactly.
He had a list of women, yeah, which he could throw into the
room when she's not in the room.But when it's about a position,
yeah, finding somebody for this position.
So I think networks are really important, but also without in
in the in your industry. I'm not inside of the company.
So I think your own network and industry are probably don't need
(16:22):
to be your own your industry. I'm for example, also in HR
network, which is called female HR excellence.
Perhaps you probably have seen some of my great female members
also some of them were in your sessions as well.
I think this is really important.
And then communication is also important to communicate and
(16:44):
from time to switch the perspective because I also have
sometimes male colleagues who didn't realize probably what is
Saturday in the room. If you are so used to only work
with men, sometimes you forgot that a woman is in the room and
what doesn't make probably with her.
So I think this is also so good from time to have a perspective,
(17:06):
not a perspective to talk about this.
And yeah, to embrace diversity. And as I said before, for us,
it's always important to to do this all together.
So I think to have male allies on your side is really
important. But a real eye to eye.
Am I not not admin was so saying, OK, I'm helping these
(17:31):
200 women. This is not the idea behind.
I think it's about real eye to eye level to yeah, I have a male
and I probably in the round way you're not sitting who's
speaking for you. I think this is this also also I
think. And yeah, let me think probably
perhaps a little bit resilient. Yeah.
(17:51):
And to because, yeah, yeah, it'smore often the case that you are
the only women in the room then the opposite.
But also this is depending on the area you're working in.
And then I'm curious to hear. So you're in metals an industry
which is a heavy industry. I'm not familiar with that
(18:11):
industry a lot, but I would assume that you have gone
through quite a shift and are still going through quite a
shift in terms of automation putting putting more machines in
what used to be manual jobs. Be curious to hear like how do
you see the industry evolving? There's a huge debate here about
the loss of blue collar jobs andnow the loss of white collar
(18:33):
jobs because of AI. And there's a, you know, in
certain circles like a certain amount of panic around that
shift happening really fast and then mass unemployment and what
do we do with these people, etcetera, etcetera.
Be curious as you're thinking about your industry, like where
do you see that industry going? Is that a concern for you?
And is it something as a young person entering the industry,
(18:56):
for example, I need to take intoaccount or should take it?
I think not that much at the moment because we have a lot of
blue collar jobs which need to be done.
But I think also when looking tothe female perspective, because
as you can imagine, we have a very nice account of women
working in the blue colour fields.
For example, in Hamburg we only have 2% women working in the
(19:20):
production areas. And I think when it comes to
automatization and making it easier for everybody, then
there's also more room for womenentering these fields.
So I think this is also really interesting and it should be
also for our male colleagues should become easier not to
yeah, have such heavy things to to carry on.
(19:42):
And so we at the moment, I'm notafraid of this.
I'm more afraid of. Yeah, getting more women also in
these production areas, because you can imagine that they're.
Yeah, it's harder. And it's especially harder if
you only have 2% women in these areas.
Then you might be always the only women.
And yeah, then it's it's always better to have some women in
(20:06):
your teens as well and to be notalone there.
Yeah. Interesting.
I'd be curious in your own words, I'd be curious when you
talk to men about the value of diversity in teams.
And again, like outside of the. It's the right thing to do.
I'd be very curious to hear, like, how do you argue for that?
(20:29):
Yeah, it's really interesting. And it's a big part of my work
actually to raise an awareness and to talk about this topic
because in the very first beginning, everybody said women
for methods. This has nothing to do with me.
And but we had to put it on the table again and again that this
is a topic for everybody and we need to solve this together.
(20:50):
As I said, eye to eye for a better working surrounding for
tomorrow for everybody. Because also male colleagues are
interested in having should be interested in having diverse
perspectives in your teams to have at the end, the better
performance. But I think this has yeah, and
not to do to talking about this.And for example, we did, we also
(21:12):
had from time to time safe spaces for women because we
need, we see the need and we know how important this is.
But I also open to save space for me colleague because I think
they are also a lot of uncertainties and they don't
know what is right at the moment, what is wrong.
And so we had a male trainer andI was there at the very first
(21:34):
beginning and then I left the room.
So the last woman leaving the room and then they had a space
to talk about this. And I think it was also
important to talk about privileges and to also again to
change the perspective and to raise an awareness at them how
it is and to step into the perspective of a women at Urbis.
(21:55):
I think this is important. And what we also doing a lot is
to showing our male colleagues what's in for you, giving them
also benefits that they are participating and that they are
sending at our side, for example, this session or we are
also doing on a regular base lunch break.
So we are coming together internationally in an online
(22:17):
session and we are raising a lotof topics in these sessions and
they are always interesting for nearly everybody.
So not only women dominated topics, but for example, when
talking about mothers, then there's also these parental
leave for fathers, which is alsoreally important that we had
some very good best practice examples in the company, but not
(22:38):
that much like, of course, women.
And sometimes from time to time it's also hard for our male
colleagues to go to their supervisor and say, OK, I'm out
for the next 6 months and they're looking at them what?
You're not needed in the very first beginning.
And this is also, yeah, this is also I think which it's really
important. You need also male role models
(22:59):
to show that they are doing this.
And if they are doing this, onlya woman can come back earlier.
This is also, yeah, part of my work to to show our colleagues
what is in for you. And yeah, also to do the
perspective change and to show how important it is to at the
end to work together on this. So interesting, if you may, if
(23:22):
we zoom out a little bit. So you mentioned you do a lot of
work very early in someone's noteven a career.
If you're in school or in university, probably you're
thinking about careers. I think very few people think,
actually think actively think about careers and when they're
in school. So when you see these young
people and taking into account the world we're living in, this
(23:45):
crazy world, the messy middle where the old world order seems
to be very strongly crumbling inall kinds of dimensions and the
new one hasn't really emerged. It's it's somewhat unclear of
what the world will actually look like.
What do you find yourself talking to these kids about?
As in what's your advice as someone who has been in the
industry in Korea for longer andalso at the forefront of it in
(24:09):
in a really interesting industrytoo?
Absolutely. I think everything is changing,
but I think copper is always needed.
So I think this is a very stablecompany.
And what I always said to women,I think it's also really
interesting at the moment to entering these firms because you
can make also a difference in a company because we are looking
(24:31):
for professionals and of course always the best, best
experienced people. We're getting the job.
We are not choosing only women because we would like to fulfill
this position with women. This is clear.
You have to have a good background.
But I say, yeah, in the future, probably better educated women
are having a better chance to getting this job than a mess
(24:55):
educated men. And probably in in the whole
industry, this was in the past probably a little bit different.
And so I think there's a great chance at the moment to to be in
this industry. And it's so fascinating for all
these energy transformation, forall these new technologies, for
all the decatalisation coppers needed.
(25:15):
So it's a really interesting company and I think you have
great child. Yeah, I would recommend to to
come to us. Fair enough.
And I should say for the for thebenefit of the listener, Aruba
is the company you work in is predominantly in copper.
And for anyone who doesn't know this, copper is a massively
important metal in the energy transformation space.
(25:37):
So as we are electrifying the world, we will need more copper
and copper being a very preciousmetal in these, in these days.
Clearly the company is in a goodspot.
I'd be curious to if you're, if you're zooming even further out
and just thinking about young people beginning of the career,
maybe even independent of your industry.
(25:59):
It is it for many speak to a lotof young people.
And there's a there's this interesting mixture between the
Oh my God, the world is my oyster because now I have
ChatGPT and like all kinds of like tools and I see all this
amazing stuff. And then on the flip side of
that, the like total panic of Ohmy God, Chechi PT will do my
job. Like the world is going to like
(26:20):
whatever hell in a handbasket. Be curious to to hear what do
you find yourself like giving them as advice as like guidance
towards the future. I think it's especially these
times are really hard for young people to make a decision.
What is really makes sense. Is this the job which is still
(26:41):
existing? I don't know in in 10 years or
something. And so I think it's more and
more important to be in contact with this young people.
But again, I think our industry is very stable.
As he said, it's it will be needed also in the future.
And the process behind. I don't think that there will be
(27:05):
so much changes, of course, in some areas, but I think and then
probably other jobs are coming out.
But I think, yeah, it's a very stable industry.
But I, I need to add something. I had a really nice conversation
a few weeks ago and I think thisis showing how important it is
to have a very good connect to young people.
(27:27):
And actually we have also this week, I think 80 young girls
from the 8th degree visiting us and, yeah, doing something with
metals and, and trying to find out if this could be something
for them. And I had a talk with a young
woman and she was, I think 12 orsomething.
And she is asking me, Steffi, what can I do if I would like to
(27:49):
become a mother? Is this also possible at Arubas?
And I was really fascinated about the pressure from such a
young lady. And yeah, of course I said to
her, of course this is possible.Of course this is also very
important for us. And I think this is also
something we have to, to help young ladies, but also from time
(28:09):
to time also experienced ladies to, to encourage them.
And as company, if somebody is declining and saying no inside
the company, no, this job is probably might not be something
for me because I'm a women and Ineed more time or I'm a mother
to encourage them and to ask them what can we do or what can
(28:30):
we change that you say yes and what can we do as a company to
support you in this field. Of course, we are also here
still on the way at our companies.
Not everything is on 100%, but Ithink this is normal because
it's a way on which we are. But I think it's it's a good
time to the outside world that we are taking care of this.
(28:53):
And also some further example, which we are starting very soon
here at our ruest. We would like to understand
really the points where we are losing women here in the company
and where is it hard for us to attract new women.
And we know that there are different phases in the life of
women where you have special needs and we exactly are doing a
(29:15):
kind of very data-driven process.
Then we would like to understand, OK, which are our
pain points and what can we do to solve this problem and what
are our activities to to. Yeah, to find best, better
benefits, better support for nearly everybody because this is
also reflecting our male colleagues.
And I think these are strong signs for all generations.
(29:39):
Also the younger one than than the women who are 20.
And if I'm, if I have in my headOK, it it who is now a company
for me if I have the plans to become a family, but also for
women, for example, these menopause topic which is also
important. I think this is really
interesting and a strong signal that we are doing this because I
(30:01):
think not a lot of companies aredoing this in our industry.
And I think also for the very young ones, as I said in the
beginning. So I had this question which I
raised and yeah, to probably to encourage them and to start.
And yeah, nothing, of course, nothing is safe.
But yeah, we are such a stable company and I'm sure there are a
(30:23):
lot of possibilities to find other solutions, other jobs,
other opportunities. You know, what I find so
interesting about this conversation is, and I think
you're absolutely right. That's what we're seeing in the
data already, this shift for very young generations to move
back into the trades. So away from, oh, I want to be a
(30:44):
marketing manager at fancy marketing agency because those
jobs, they've they start to understand those jobs will be
probably even more at risk to beautomated, replaced, made
obsolete by AI versus the metal industry.
I guess you said we will probably meet copper for quite a
while and it will need to be made and turned into a product,
(31:05):
plumbing, carpentry, all of those things.
So it's fascinating for me to hear your, your perspective on
this is this had been an absolutely phenomenal
conversation. I'd be curious, maybe as a last
question, if there's anything you could tell your younger self
as in going back whatever time period you want.
As in here's some advice I wouldgive you in terms of how do you
(31:26):
navigate this interesting messy middle in which we are finding
ourselves today. Here's what I have here.
Always be open, be Courier, raise very early and network.
Try to find contacts to companies.
Connect yourself with companies.Go to all places where you can
(31:47):
learn something about a company.Connect with a company, talk to
the people and go to, I don't know, after work events where
company are presenting themselves where you can try to
connect and find people. Because as you said before, this
is not happening enough in the school.
And so you have to be very proactive and be open to STEAM
(32:09):
topics, especially as a women because I think there's a lot of
opportunities in this field. And yeah, just try it out.
I love it. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate the conversation.
I am sure we have a bunch of female listeners as well as a
bunch of maybe parents who listen to this parents of a
(32:30):
daughter of a kid of a young woman thinking about hey this
is. Really interesting inside.
Thank you so much and thank you so much for the work you're
doing at Women from Adults. It's truly phenomenal to see and
I wish you all the best of luck to get to to proper equality in
your industry. Thank you so much.
It's amazing to be here. Thanks.
Disrupt disruption. But to be honest, sometimes I
don't like the word empowerment because I think we don't need to
fix the women. Women have power.
We need to fix the system the height.
Hey everybody, Pascal here. Time for another episode of
Disrupt Disruption. Today's guest, Stephanie Klein
(00:26):
brings many years of experience in industry and international
environment to. The table after.
Working in wholesale and foreigntrade and completing her
business degree in Industrial Management and Marketing, she
joined our Rubis AG in 2010, inspired by a woman who first
opened her eyes to the opportunities within the
traditionally male dominated metals industry.
(00:49):
Since 2022, she's been leading the international initiative
Women for Metals, which makes women in the metals and heavy
industry more visible, connectedand empowered and.
Actively. Contributes to driving the
cultural transformation toward more diversity.
Stephanie stands for a hands on,solution oriented approach and
(01:10):
demonstrates how real change foran entire industry can start
from within a single company when people of all genders are
truly engaged. Her works proves.
Diversity isn't just a nice to have, it's a business
imperative. She lives in Hamburg today,
which is in the north of Germany.
In her free time, she's passionate about sports.
(01:31):
She serves, plays tennis, and enjoys watching sports just as
much as taking part herself. With that being said, we are
going to have an amazing and truly fascinating conversation
about what it actually means to lead in not only an industry
which is male dominated as a female leader, but also in an
(01:52):
environment which is rapidly changing.
And at the same time, some things stay the same.
So with that being said, let's dig in.
Steffi. It's.
Great to have you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for making thetime.
Thank you so much for having me.It's amazing to be here.
So a little bit of a benefit forthe listener.
We met at the Embrace Festival in Berlin, which is an HRHR tech
(02:17):
festival, and I was so impressed.
You were part of a workshop we held there.
And I was so impressed by your story because you operate in an
industry which is so heavily male dominated, probably one of
the most male dominated industries I would imagine on
the planet, metals. And I'd be so curious to if you
(02:38):
could start us off with a littlebit of like, how did you get
into this? Yeah.
Thank you so much. I also was very impressed
meeting you in this great workshop.
So this was also very inspiring.Actually, my story is really
funny because I never studied mythology or had something to do
with metals before. I am, I'm coming from a
completely different industry, but actually a woman raised an
(03:01):
awareness for this industry and she was a friend of me and she
informed me and said, oh, Stephie, you have to apply for
this industry. You have to send them an
application. This would be something for you.
And you know what? I didn't ask myself if this is a
good idea. I just followed her because I
know, OK, she's a great woman. She's doing great things.
(03:21):
And yeah, I'm very convinced. OK, this is something great for
me as well. And I'm now since this month, 15
years working at Abu Whistle. This is a long period and we
often see this in our work. So I'm, I have the chance to
leading an initiative called Women for Metals here at Aubus,
who was deeply working on these topics.
And we see a lot of women who attract other women.
(03:43):
So you need to see of course of women in this industry to have
the idea and to understand, OK, this could be also something for
me and this could be a good place to work.
So this was a little bit my starting point.
And yeah, was this initiative. We really would like to drive a
change forward to make our industry attractive for all
genders. And yeah, to welcome everybody.
(04:04):
And as you said in the beginning, of course, due to the
history, this is a very male dominated industry.
I'd be curious to understand from a business perspective.
So outside of the IT is the right thing for us to do.
Curious to hear a company like Arubas, why are they doing this?
What's the, they must be a driver for their bottom line as
(04:24):
well. Absolutely.
At the very first beginning, this was actually also a
grassroot initiative. So it comes out of the company I
think, which is very special. And at the beginning we did this
in our free time because we didn't have an official order
and we didn't know, OK, what is everybody's thinking about this?
Of course, we had at this time on the, I mean in the board and
(04:46):
yeah, then we just started to giving us a vision, giving us
some aims, why do we want to do this?
And then we asked the chance to present it to our board and they
were really happy with this and that, OK, this very important
topic also for our best, for us,we're doing this internally, but
also for the whole industry because there's a big lack of
(05:08):
women in this industry. And on one hand, I think there
is it's a value to have equalityalso on the companies to have
the same numbers of women as menin a company.
But of course, there's also a business background because it's
not only a nice to have, becausewe all do have this lack of
(05:28):
professionals in the future. And we need women, of course, on
board. We cannot afford to have only a
look on the very male side. And yeah, didn't have an eye on
the female employees in the world outside.
And of course, and this is really important to our CEO who
is the big sponsor of the initiative.
It's also to have diverse perspective, to have all
(05:52):
perspectives in every decision you are making.
It might be probably at the beginning and longer way, but at
the end, better way, the most sustainable way because you have
all perspectives inside and not historical wise, the only male
perspective inside. So I think there are many good
reasons for us as company to do this.
(06:15):
And yeah, to really change something and to drive the
culture change forward with this.
So interesting. I'd be curious, you already
mentioned like the notion aroundthe war for talent, like the
lack of like just available talent to companies these days,
which is a thing we hear from lots and lots of our clients
(06:35):
across industries. I'd be curious in an industry
which is on the perception side,so male dominated, how do you
attract female talent into this industry?
How do you not make them go, man, this is not for me.
This is this is just man, I don't want to be there.
What's the strategy there? Yeah, it's really important to
(06:55):
start very early. So we are also concentrating on
schools, concentrating on universities, because these
stereotypes you cannot broken this early enough.
Of course, in the future. You had always made colleagues
on advertising and yeah, on documentations or yeah,
profiles. And I think it's really
(07:16):
important to show that we have already great women working at
Arubas or working in our whole industry.
But you have to give them a case, you have to make them
visible. And as I said in the very first
beginning, we know women attractother women.
So if I see, OK, there are already women working in the
surrounding, then I have the idea, OK, this could be also
(07:36):
tempted for me. If I only see men on the
pictures, then I never come to this idea, OK, this could be
something for me. And we also we are do very
strong work together with schools and universities because
we know that there are no differences in girls and boys.
If they are interested in the steep topics.
It's the way how they raised, raised up in families, it's the
(07:59):
way how they have contact with companies like this, with
industries or if they are connected to other things.
And so we are exactly doing this.
So we are getting a lot of guards to our company and
showing them that this is reallyinteresting and this is a really
fascinating industry, especiallywhen you're going to driving a
new technologies, all these materials matters are inside of
(08:22):
these technologies. So it's really needed.
And also as a girl or as a woman, you can be everything and
work everywhere. And I think we have to tell
these stories and to, yeah, showour role models and also giving,
of course, our people who are working in our company, our
women, a satisfaction to showingthem and to say, OK, this is
(08:43):
really important and we need more of you.
And you mentioned you been in this particular role or this
company for the last 15 years. I'd be curious to hear surely
your industry has gone through alot of change in terms of
automation and botics and like different skill set needed.
I'm curious to hear like a reflection like how do you think
(09:07):
that place of work is changing for your people?
What are the skills you are now looking for?
Surely, I assume they're like different from what they were 15
years ago. I have to correct.
I'm not working for 15 years in this position in which I'm now
because I started later this initiative.
Yeah, but of course there are a lot of changes and I think this
(09:27):
has a lot to do with these skills you which are becoming
more and more valuable, especially when looking into AI,
when looking into all these automatization.
I think this human skills are becoming more and more important
like empathy, like curiosity. Yeah, I think we have to also in
an industry like ours, this is becoming more and more
(09:49):
important. And I think what is also really
important is the culture, the way on how we work together.
And as we always said, our initiative is more to drive the
whole industry forward or to shape the whole industry.
Because if we are reaching women, I'm pretty sure we are
reaching everybody. Because also for men, it is more
(10:11):
and more important to to have more flexibility, the way how we
talk with each other, the way how we cooperate with each
other. It's not only always about the
mothers. They are also fathers in the
room who would like to take care.
And I think it's coming more andmore important for nearly
everybody. Yeah, I think I'm curious.
(10:33):
Without a doubt. We hear like topics like, oh, we
need to teach kids more empathy or we need to foster more
empathy. We need to look into curiosity,
flexibility in in many ways, at least my observation is that's
not something we still not necessarily really teach at in
schools or in universities. So how do you think we can get
(10:55):
people to what's your approach in like getting those skills to
people? You're absolutely right.
I'm saying I don't know how it is in the US, but I think in
Germany school probably need to do much more also to to play
this industry topic or the the ways the kids are going after
school. What could be the ideas and just
(11:18):
a little exactly that we're doing this here at Hamburg.
We're doing hero days only for girls.
So we are playing metallurgy heroes, female days or chemical
hero days or electronical hero days.
So we are inviting only little kids, only girls to acts and
showing them what we are doing, showing how interesting it is.
(11:41):
And yeah, also try to make them curious about what we are doing,
showing them all searching the thoughts important that it not
always have to be one straight way in your life so that there
are different possibilities to to, yeah, make make your way.
So I'm the best example for this.
And also to connecting them withfemale role models who are
(12:02):
already in the industry. And I think there is a lot of
room for improvement here in ourcompany.
We are also doing a lot of things for women, not only for
women. I think that's also important.
Women for Methods is open for everybody because we cannot
solve the topic alone. That should be a topic where
everybody is included. And for example, we are doing
(12:26):
also kind of empowerment sessionwhere we are talking about
special skills like this. But to be honest, sometimes I
don't like the word empowerment because I think we don't need to
fix the women. Women have power.
We need to fix the system behindand this is exactly what we need
to do here at Arubas as well. And I think that's also very
(12:47):
important that women for metricsis more than an initiative.
It's more than a network, sorry.It's an initiative because we
really would like to change something.
We would like to change the framework condition so that
everybody feels welcome. And of course, this has not only
to do with women, because 85 of my percent of my colleagues are
mid. This has to do with everybody of
(13:10):
us. Yeah.
And where do you see this going in the future?
So we we seem to find ourselves a little bit at a crossroads
like here in the United States clearly like a DUI is like and
be curious to hear is where do you like what's the vision for
the future? As you mentioned, you're at 85%,
so 15% women in the industry, still quite a long ways to go, I
(13:32):
guess to quality. Curious to, to understand like
what's the vector for you? So our big vision is to continue
what we are doing because as yousaid, it's not an easy way and
it's more a marathon than a sprit.
But we have to stay clear on ourway.
And I think exactly in these times, you can make a real
(13:53):
difference because we are seeingalso other companies in Germany
reacting on things you said. But I think if this is something
which belongs to you and to yourcompany and to your values you
would like to stand for, then you have to be on this part.
And I'm really proud that we aredoing exactly doing this.
And this is so important for ourcompany because it's about the
(14:15):
values. Our CE OS see the need that
diverse perspective, diverse teams and the better do have the
better performance in the end. So it's not a nice to have.
It's also a business team. And I think and especially in
this tired here, you can, you can make a difference.
And as I see it's still a lot ofroom for improvement.
(14:36):
I see the need to do a lot of things.
So the best thing would be if I don't have a job anymore, then
everything is fine. But I say we took out a little
bit. Yeah, for sure.
And then looking into the future, staying in that theme of
looking into the future, if you're thinking about skills and
leadership, and I'm sure you talk to a lot of young people in
(14:57):
the beginning of careers, what is it you?
What is it you recommend for them?
It's always, I find it always interesting as I'm at these
conferences and people always say, oh, it's empathy and it's
curiosity. And then it's so be more
empathetic. I was like, oh, that's great,
but what does that even mean? How do I do this?
Curious? Like when you speak to like
young women leaders or like someone fresh out of college
(15:17):
saying, I'm figuring this out, what is it you tell them?
I think on one hand it's really important for you to have your
own network to raise your network in the company.
And I think what is also important your network should
not be only out made out of women only.
So I think you should also have a diverse network in the
(15:38):
company. And exactly with our initiative
you would like to do this to also to support people to
connect you to, yeah, to bring you in the heads of everybody.
I was once in a pen and there a men said women are sometimes
over mentored but under sponsored and I love this
(15:58):
sentence. And he said exactly.
He had a list of women, yeah, which he could throw into the
room when she's not in the room.But when it's about a position,
yeah, finding somebody for this position.
So I think networks are really important, but also without in
in the in your industry. I'm not inside of the company.
So I think your own network and industry are probably don't need
(16:22):
to be your own your industry. I'm for example, also in HR
network, which is called female HR excellence.
Perhaps you probably have seen some of my great female members
also some of them were in your sessions as well.
I think this is really important.
And then communication is also important to communicate and
(16:44):
from time to switch the perspective because I also have
sometimes male colleagues who didn't realize probably what is
Saturday in the room. If you are so used to only work
with men, sometimes you forgot that a woman is in the room and
what doesn't make probably with her.
So I think this is also so good from time to have a perspective,
(17:06):
not a perspective to talk about this.
And yeah, to embrace diversity. And as I said before, for us,
it's always important to to do this all together.
So I think to have male allies on your side is really
important. But a real eye to eye.
Am I not not admin was so saying, OK, I'm helping these
(17:31):
200 women. This is not the idea behind.
I think it's about real eye to eye level to yeah, I have a male
and I probably in the round way you're not sitting who's
speaking for you. I think this is this also also I
think. And yeah, let me think probably
perhaps a little bit resilient. Yeah.
(17:51):
And to because, yeah, yeah, it'smore often the case that you are
the only women in the room then the opposite.
But also this is depending on the area you're working in.
And then I'm curious to hear. So you're in metals an industry
which is a heavy industry. I'm not familiar with that
(18:11):
industry a lot, but I would assume that you have gone
through quite a shift and are still going through quite a
shift in terms of automation putting putting more machines in
what used to be manual jobs. Be curious to hear like how do
you see the industry evolving? There's a huge debate here about
the loss of blue collar jobs andnow the loss of white collar
(18:33):
jobs because of AI. And there's a, you know, in
certain circles like a certain amount of panic around that
shift happening really fast and then mass unemployment and what
do we do with these people, etcetera, etcetera.
Be curious as you're thinking about your industry, like where
do you see that industry going? Is that a concern for you?
And is it something as a young person entering the industry,
(18:56):
for example, I need to take intoaccount or should take it?
I think not that much at the moment because we have a lot of
blue collar jobs which need to be done.
But I think also when looking tothe female perspective, because
as you can imagine, we have a very nice account of women
working in the blue colour fields.
For example, in Hamburg we only have 2% women working in the
(19:20):
production areas. And I think when it comes to
automatization and making it easier for everybody, then
there's also more room for womenentering these fields.
So I think this is also really interesting and it should be
also for our male colleagues should become easier not to
yeah, have such heavy things to to carry on.
(19:42):
And so we at the moment, I'm notafraid of this.
I'm more afraid of. Yeah, getting more women also in
these production areas, because you can imagine that they're.
Yeah, it's harder. And it's especially harder if
you only have 2% women in these areas.
Then you might be always the only women.
And yeah, then it's it's always better to have some women in
(20:06):
your teens as well and to be notalone there.
Yeah. Interesting.
I'd be curious in your own words, I'd be curious when you
talk to men about the value of diversity in teams.
And again, like outside of the. It's the right thing to do.
I'd be very curious to hear, like, how do you argue for that?
(20:29):
Yeah, it's really interesting. And it's a big part of my work
actually to raise an awareness and to talk about this topic
because in the very first beginning, everybody said women
for methods. This has nothing to do with me.
And but we had to put it on the table again and again that this
is a topic for everybody and we need to solve this together.
(20:50):
As I said, eye to eye for a better working surrounding for
tomorrow for everybody. Because also male colleagues are
interested in having should be interested in having diverse
perspectives in your teams to have at the end, the better
performance. But I think this has yeah, and
not to do to talking about this.And for example, we did, we also
(21:12):
had from time to time safe spaces for women because we
need, we see the need and we know how important this is.
But I also open to save space for me colleague because I think
they are also a lot of uncertainties and they don't
know what is right at the moment, what is wrong.
And so we had a male trainer andI was there at the very first
(21:34):
beginning and then I left the room.
So the last woman leaving the room and then they had a space
to talk about this. And I think it was also
important to talk about privileges and to also again to
change the perspective and to raise an awareness at them how
it is and to step into the perspective of a women at Urbis.
(21:55):
I think this is important. And what we also doing a lot is
to showing our male colleagues what's in for you, giving them
also benefits that they are participating and that they are
sending at our side, for example, this session or we are
also doing on a regular base lunch break.
So we are coming together internationally in an online
(22:17):
session and we are raising a lotof topics in these sessions and
they are always interesting for nearly everybody.
So not only women dominated topics, but for example, when
talking about mothers, then there's also these parental
leave for fathers, which is alsoreally important that we had
some very good best practice examples in the company, but not
(22:38):
that much like, of course, women.
And sometimes from time to time it's also hard for our male
colleagues to go to their supervisor and say, OK, I'm out
for the next 6 months and they're looking at them what?
You're not needed in the very first beginning.
And this is also, yeah, this is also I think which it's really
important. You need also male role models
(22:59):
to show that they are doing this.
And if they are doing this, onlya woman can come back earlier.
This is also, yeah, part of my work to to show our colleagues
what is in for you. And yeah, also to do the
perspective change and to show how important it is to at the
end to work together on this. So interesting, if you may, if
(23:22):
we zoom out a little bit. So you mentioned you do a lot of
work very early in someone's noteven a career.
If you're in school or in university, probably you're
thinking about careers. I think very few people think,
actually think actively think about careers and when they're
in school. So when you see these young
people and taking into account the world we're living in, this
(23:45):
crazy world, the messy middle where the old world order seems
to be very strongly crumbling inall kinds of dimensions and the
new one hasn't really emerged. It's it's somewhat unclear of
what the world will actually look like.
What do you find yourself talking to these kids about?
As in what's your advice as someone who has been in the
industry in Korea for longer andalso at the forefront of it in
(24:09):
in a really interesting industrytoo?
Absolutely. I think everything is changing,
but I think copper is always needed.
So I think this is a very stablecompany.
And what I always said to women,I think it's also really
interesting at the moment to entering these firms because you
can make also a difference in a company because we are looking
(24:31):
for professionals and of course always the best, best
experienced people. We're getting the job.
We are not choosing only women because we would like to fulfill
this position with women. This is clear.
You have to have a good background.
But I say, yeah, in the future, probably better educated women
are having a better chance to getting this job than a mess
(24:55):
educated men. And probably in in the whole
industry, this was in the past probably a little bit different.
And so I think there's a great chance at the moment to to be in
this industry. And it's so fascinating for all
these energy transformation, forall these new technologies, for
all the decatalisation coppers needed.
(25:15):
So it's a really interesting company and I think you have
great child. Yeah, I would recommend to to
come to us. Fair enough.
And I should say for the for thebenefit of the listener, Aruba
is the company you work in is predominantly in copper.
And for anyone who doesn't know this, copper is a massively
important metal in the energy transformation space.
(25:37):
So as we are electrifying the world, we will need more copper
and copper being a very preciousmetal in these, in these days.
Clearly the company is in a goodspot.
I'd be curious to if you're, if you're zooming even further out
and just thinking about young people beginning of the career,
maybe even independent of your industry.
(25:59):
It is it for many speak to a lotof young people.
And there's a there's this interesting mixture between the
Oh my God, the world is my oyster because now I have
ChatGPT and like all kinds of like tools and I see all this
amazing stuff. And then on the flip side of
that, the like total panic of Ohmy God, Chechi PT will do my
job. Like the world is going to like
(26:20):
whatever hell in a handbasket. Be curious to to hear what do
you find yourself like giving them as advice as like guidance
towards the future. I think it's especially these
times are really hard for young people to make a decision.
What is really makes sense. Is this the job which is still
(26:41):
existing? I don't know in in 10 years or
something. And so I think it's more and
more important to be in contact with this young people.
But again, I think our industry is very stable.
As he said, it's it will be needed also in the future.
And the process behind. I don't think that there will be
(27:05):
so much changes, of course, in some areas, but I think and then
probably other jobs are coming out.
But I think, yeah, it's a very stable industry.
But I, I need to add something. I had a really nice conversation
a few weeks ago and I think thisis showing how important it is
to have a very good connect to young people.
(27:27):
And actually we have also this week, I think 80 young girls
from the 8th degree visiting us and, yeah, doing something with
metals and, and trying to find out if this could be something
for them. And I had a talk with a young
woman and she was, I think 12 orsomething.
And she is asking me, Steffi, what can I do if I would like to
(27:49):
become a mother? Is this also possible at Arubas?
And I was really fascinated about the pressure from such a
young lady. And yeah, of course I said to
her, of course this is possible.Of course this is also very
important for us. And I think this is also
something we have to, to help young ladies, but also from time
(28:09):
to time also experienced ladies to, to encourage them.
And as company, if somebody is declining and saying no inside
the company, no, this job is probably might not be something
for me because I'm a women and Ineed more time or I'm a mother
to encourage them and to ask them what can we do or what can
(28:30):
we change that you say yes and what can we do as a company to
support you in this field. Of course, we are also here
still on the way at our companies.
Not everything is on 100%, but Ithink this is normal because
it's a way on which we are. But I think it's it's a good
time to the outside world that we are taking care of this.
(28:53):
And also some further example, which we are starting very soon
here at our ruest. We would like to understand
really the points where we are losing women here in the company
and where is it hard for us to attract new women.
And we know that there are different phases in the life of
women where you have special needs and we exactly are doing a
(29:15):
kind of very data-driven process.
Then we would like to understand, OK, which are our
pain points and what can we do to solve this problem and what
are our activities to to. Yeah, to find best, better
benefits, better support for nearly everybody because this is
also reflecting our male colleagues.
And I think these are strong signs for all generations.
(29:39):
Also the younger one than than the women who are 20.
And if I'm, if I have in my headOK, it it who is now a company
for me if I have the plans to become a family, but also for
women, for example, these menopause topic which is also
important. I think this is really
interesting and a strong signal that we are doing this because I
(30:01):
think not a lot of companies aredoing this in our industry.
And I think also for the very young ones, as I said in the
beginning. So I had this question which I
raised and yeah, to probably to encourage them and to start.
And yeah, nothing, of course, nothing is safe.
But yeah, we are such a stable company and I'm sure there are a
(30:23):
lot of possibilities to find other solutions, other jobs,
other opportunities. You know, what I find so
interesting about this conversation is, and I think
you're absolutely right. That's what we're seeing in the
data already, this shift for very young generations to move
back into the trades. So away from, oh, I want to be a
(30:44):
marketing manager at fancy marketing agency because those
jobs, they've they start to understand those jobs will be
probably even more at risk to beautomated, replaced, made
obsolete by AI versus the metal industry.
I guess you said we will probably meet copper for quite a
while and it will need to be made and turned into a product,
(31:05):
plumbing, carpentry, all of those things.
So it's fascinating for me to hear your, your perspective on
this is this had been an absolutely phenomenal
conversation. I'd be curious, maybe as a last
question, if there's anything you could tell your younger self
as in going back whatever time period you want.
As in here's some advice I wouldgive you in terms of how do you
(31:26):
navigate this interesting messy middle in which we are finding
ourselves today. Here's what I have here.
Always be open, be Courier, raise very early and network.
Try to find contacts to companies.
Connect yourself with companies.Go to all places where you can
(31:47):
learn something about a company.Connect with a company, talk to
the people and go to, I don't know, after work events where
company are presenting themselves where you can try to
connect and find people. Because as you said before, this
is not happening enough in the school.
And so you have to be very proactive and be open to STEAM
(32:09):
topics, especially as a women because I think there's a lot of
opportunities in this field. And yeah, just try it out.
I love it. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate the conversation.
I am sure we have a bunch of female listeners as well as a
bunch of maybe parents who listen to this parents of a
(32:30):
daughter of a kid of a young woman thinking about hey this
is. Really interesting inside.
Thank you so much and thank you so much for the work you're
doing at Women from Adults. It's truly phenomenal to see and
I wish you all the best of luck to get to to proper equality in
your industry. Thank you so much.
It's amazing to be here. Thanks.
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