In this episode, we are joined by Gero Hesse, a distinguished “Top HR Influencer” and CEO of EMBRACE, a Bertelsmann Investments company at the forefront of HR technology. Drawing from his deep expertise, Gero offers a profound perspective on how the HR industry must evolve in an era defined by constant change. The conversation delves into the pressing dichotomy of the talent shortage driven by demographic shifts versus the narrative that AI will automate countless jobs. Gero argues that while technology will inevitably replace administrative roles, it will simultaneously create new ones, shifting the core challenge to workforce transformation and reskilling. He envisions a future where HR transitions from an administrative function to a strategic one, responsible for shaping the cultural and ethical rules for a new, blended workforce of humans and machines.
Gero also shares his personal leadership philosophy, which is anchored in radical authenticity and a commitment to building long-term, trust-based relationships. He believes in being the same person at work and in his private life, a principle visibly reflected in the edgy, unconventional branding of his company and its festival-style conferences. Ultimately, Gero provides clear guidance for leaders and HR professionals: as automation handles routine tasks, the enduring value of HR will lie in its ability to manage the human side of the business. He champions a future where the focus shifts to shaping culture, fostering employee identification, and guiding technology integration in a way that amplifies human potential rather than simply replacing it.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Disruption. So if HR people mainly think
about HR as an administrative task, for instance to provide a
good payroll, then I would say then in five years from now or
10 years from now, there is no HR anymore.
It's done, it's gone. It will be done by Tech Tour.
(00:31):
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode
of Disrupt Disruption. In today's episode, I got to
speak with Gero Hesa. Gero is the CEO of Embrace, a
part of Bertelsmann Investment specialising in innovative
solutions for recruiting, retention and HR tech.
Leading a team of 550, he focuses on making the workplace
more human, optimistic and technology driven.
(00:53):
He also runs the award-winning block and podcast Zotkorn,
offering inspiration for work culture.
Since 2009, Gerrogut recognized as a top HR influencer and 1 of
50 HR pioneers by Pasenovichev Magazine.
And trust me, this is an amazingconversation.
Guerrero, it is amazing to see you again after the incredible
(01:15):
Embrace Festival. Thank you so much for the
invitation and I can honestly say in the feedback to the
festival was very positive, but almost all people refer to you
as a great speaker, very motivating person and also the
content, it was something that the people really liked.
Yes, thank you so much. You have to say this.
(01:37):
You're contractually obligated to say this because you're on my
podcast. In Germany you would say you can
give me the 10 year old later, but I don't know, it's your
honesty and I think you saw it also on Facebook.
There was so much very positive feedback afterwards, especially
also for you. Yes.
Thank you. Before we get into leadership
and thinking about the future, I'd be very curious to hear.
(02:01):
I find it fascinating. So you're running AHR Tech
Company, but you also decided toset up AHR Tech Festival, which
is a conference which I attended, and I actually didn't
see all that much HR tech stuff on the stage.
I'd be really curious to understand a little bit like
(02:23):
what was the thinking process behind setting up the festival
and then particularly making thefestival something which isn't
necessarily about HR tech per SE, but much more about the
broader context of how do we actually lead and how do we show
up in this world. Yeah.
At the end of the day, perhaps we have to have a look at the
beginnings of this festival, which was 2018.
(02:47):
And at that time, our focus was employer branding and HR
marketing and stuff like that. So we did 2 editions really
focused on on these topics. And then I felt that's nice and
that's interesting. And that should always be part
of what we're doing at Embrace. But technology becomes more and
more important. That's one thing also in HR, but
(03:09):
you could say in all different fields, in every business, in
all aspects of every business. That was logical next step for
the development of the festival.And the other point is to look
more to the how can I say culture side of things, the
corporate culture mindset, how people yeah work and act with
(03:34):
each other. And nowadays these are the 2
main topics in my opinion. One thing is what you can do
with new technology, especially AI.
There were a lot of AI driven topics on the festival.
But on the other hand, how do you deal with that?
How do you deal with change? How you how do you ensure that
(03:55):
people are identify with what your company is doing?
How do you keep them motivated in in times like these where
change is the normal? And so I think these two pillars
are very important on the one hand, the tech part, on the
other hand, more the mindset, culture, impact that people have
on work. Interesting what I found so
(04:15):
fascinating. So we have met at a Bertelsmann
leadership development program and stayed in touch afterwards.
What I find so interesting aboutyour perspective is you're very
curious and really interested in, as you mentioned, mindset
and leadership and how does the future look like?
But you're coming, which is interesting to me from a
(04:35):
perspective of the employer. So not just necessarily like the
leader themself, but the people who hire the leader or the
people who have to train the leader.
Are the people who have to make sure that the good leaders stay
within the group or company, right?
Exactly. I'd be very curious, just high
level, if you're thinking about today's environment and
(04:56):
increased uncertainty, ambiguity, all that good stuff,
all bad stuff. I'd be curious to to hear what
is your sense of what is it? What are the big challenges
people face these days on the HRside?
Like what is the thing which like keeps them up at night?
I'd say depending on the economic situation.
(05:17):
So my answer like two or three years ago would have been to
attract the right people and to keep the right people.
Nowadays in Germany we have a crisis, difficult times from an
economy. Make a point of view, I'd say
it's still to keep the right talent and it's still underlying
(05:39):
to get the right people. But that's more a topic that's
very much related to the demographic change because
everybody knows that due to the demographic change, we will have
talent or we in some fields we already have talent shortage and
when the economy picks up again,we would see that right away.
(05:59):
So this will be a very big topic.
Aside from that, I would say it's coping with change and
enabling people to cope with thecontinuously changing
environment. How do you make sure that people
are not frustrated? How do you make sure that they
are willing to keep keep the pace that we have currently?
(06:24):
I think these things are super super important and they are
also related to each other. You said something which I would
love to get your take on becausethere is this interesting
dichotomy between on one hand, absolutely you hear talent
shortage particularly in westernworld like Germany, for example,
ageing, ageing population and ageing workforce.
(06:44):
On the flip side of that, you have this like interesting
narrative currently, which is OAI is going to eat all of those
jobs. How do you reconcile those two
things from your perspective? As you saw on the conference, on
the festival, I try to get as many perspectives on this as
possible because the real truth we would see in hindsight, so we
(07:06):
could see exposed in three yearsor five years what what really
happened. So in in my opinion, it's super
important to to have different perspectives on this.
And from my point of view, thereare two basic ways how you could
tell this story. You could say, yeah, this will
all get away. Talent shortage, Yeah, now it
(07:29):
might be there, but in five years from now, no, we have the
problem completely in in the other way around.
You could say that you have the old storytelling.
We always had phases of big change and drops gut.
How can I say we didn't need those jobs anymore?
But there there were new jobs coming due to the technological
(07:52):
change. And I think both of these
stories are right, but I don't know the percentage and that's a
problem we have. On the one hand, I think my
personal opinion is more that technology will create new jobs.
Yes, we will also have a lot of jobs that are not needed
anymore. But All in all, I'm pretty sure
(08:14):
that we will we won't have the the situation that there is no
talent shortage anymore depends on the job profiles.
So there might be job profiles that are completely not needed
anymore and then other job profiles that are super
important. And the big question is the
workforce. Can you transform the workforce
(08:35):
that they do the jobs that are really needed?
And of course, I have doubts that not every worker will be
willing or we'll have the capacity to really work in a new
field. So that's a very open discussion
in my opinion. Yeah, Another interesting point
I find is at least here in the United States, I'm pretty
(08:57):
curious to hear what your like senses of the ground truth in
Europe. A lot of conversation you
currently hear is companies, HR professionals in those
companies, they're very gleeful about the fact that they're
replacing entry level jobs with AI, right?
So, Oh yeah, all these entry level jobs are cutting like AI
(09:18):
is going to do this. It's amazing.
It's cheaper, better, whatever, faster or whatever.
Which brings up an interesting question, because if you don't
have the entry level job, how doyou ever get to like media like
the mid levels and the high level jobs if you're not
training your people? And I'd be curious to hear is A
is this a thing in Europe? And B, what's your perspective
on this because it feels so short sighted to me.
(09:40):
As we discussed that on our festival.
So yes, it is a topic. However, I assume that it's in
the in the US it's more mainstream topic than in
Germany. I saw that last September when I
visited the HR tech conference in Las Vegas that that was a
topic there. And in Germany, you discuss it
in certain groups of people. We're really focusing on on on
(10:04):
these topics. So it's not that it's not really
a mainstream topic. It's a good question.
So if you don't have a junior programmer anymore who can
become a senior programmer tomorrow, that's a question
behind of it. And I think companies have to
make sure that they deal with this in a way that it's not
(10:26):
black or white. Yeah.
So of course you want to benefitfrom all the good things that AI
brings with it from an economic point of view, yeah, less, less
workforce, you save money, your margin might be higher, but to
do this by 100% is probably not a good idea.
So you have to really be cautious other way and the other
(10:49):
way around. I really asked the question, who
is working in 10 years from now?Who is able to work in 10 years
from now? And this is a discussion.
When you think about AI and all the potential it it probably
has, it's a big question if you really start thinking about
this, if you get into a rabbit hole.
(11:10):
Interesting. What would you say are the, if
you're thinking about like the whatever it is, like the five or
ten year time frame, looking from your perspective, HRHR tech
development of this industry or the sector, I'd be curious to to
get a sense of like where do yousee this going?
What are we? What are the big trends you're
(11:30):
seeing as in automation? I don't know clearly the use of
AI, but where do you think your industry is going?
I think our industry is really depending on how the industry
defines itself. So if HR people mainly think
about HR as an administrative task, for instance to provide a
(11:55):
good payroll, then I would say then in five years from now or
10 years from now, there is no HR anymore.
It's done, it's gone. It will be done by tech tools,
which already started. If you define HI in another way,
if you say more, it's about cultural impact, identification,
(12:16):
the mindset, the way how we workwith each other.
You'll see it more from a very strategic role.
I think it might be more important than ever in a time
where you have more and more technology and more and more
automation. Because at the end of the day,
where's the human side of what acompany does?
(12:37):
And HR could really be responsible for this, or not
fully responsible, because it's also, of course, a big topic for
the leaders in a company. But but who should care for
these things if not HR? It's not the CFOI suppose.
Yeah, interesting. So how do you envision then the
(13:00):
role of HR as in if you think about the context of a company
and you've got like you see likeyou've got your CEO, your CFO,
your CEO or like all of these like units, how do you envision
this will evolve over time then?I suppose that these topics,
workforce transformation, cultural development, but also
training will be topics are topics and will be even more so
(13:24):
topics that are the most important topics for for C level
in the future. And in my perspective, a strong
HR person would really define together with the C level what
are the rules of this company? How do we want to work with each
other? How one do we want to have a
(13:45):
clever mix within the workforce also?
And with workforce, I don't onlymean people, I also mean
machines. And so if you talk about all
this genetic AI stuff, you should really take a look at at
this as well. How do you work with a genetic
AI? Co workers, if you will?
(14:07):
In my opinion, it's super important for HR to really focus
on the technological developmentand then really combine that
with a human factor in a company.
Super interesting. One thing I find very curious
about you is you're extremely curious and I love that.
And you're also, you're really thoughtful about the future.
(14:28):
It's like every conversation we had always sparked something in
me, whereas, Oh, I need to look into this.
This is interesting. I'd be just curious on a very
personal level. You also lead a company, right?
Embrace as a company is like what, 500 people or something?
It's a big company. How as a leader do you see,
sorry, how as a leader do you keep up with what's happening in
(14:50):
the world and how do you like create this like space and the
the ability for you to think about the future?
That's a very good question because Embrace is not a company
on its own, but it belongs to a huge corporation, the Battlesman
Corporation. And so I'm not totally free.
(15:12):
I work within a system and I do that now for 25 years.
So I pretty much know that you have to work within the system.
You might change little things here or there, but the overall
system, I won't be able to change that.
That would be stupid because thesystem then would say, OK, then
do this somewhere else. And so you got to know the rules
(15:35):
of the system. That's one thing.
And if you ask now about EmbraceItself, I'd say I'm curious.
Yes, but I have my own podcast and blog since 2009.
I started the blog in 2009, the podcast in 2018.
And every week I do 2 podcast sessions.
(15:56):
And at the end of the day, that's my way how to cope with
the future. Because I talk to people, I
learned from them and them and Iget new thoughts and new ideas
and a little spark here, a little spark there, perhaps a
little bit like you are doing this right here and now.
That's a very good development thing.
(16:18):
But of course, you must be the person who is willing to really
invest every Week 2 hours or three or five hours into these
things. And in your great book Disrupt
Disruption, which is over here in my in my book collection, you
also said it really makes sense to really take some time to
(16:39):
think about the future. And you can of course also do it
in other ways. You can read books, you can
visit conferences, but my way isreally mainly to to do this via
the podcast and the blog. So that's a good way to, to keep
on the latest or to know the latest things that are happening
in HR because continuously I read things here or there.
(17:02):
And then if I think it's interesting, I call the person
and say, Hey, are you willing todo a podcast session with me?
And then I learn something. So for me individually, that's a
very good way how to really stayon top of things as much as it's
possible, at least for me. I love that and I love your
podcast. We'll link to this, of course,
(17:24):
in the show notes. A Full disclosure, it's in
German, but it is worth listening to if but you.
Have AI tools if you want to listen to it in English.
You can easily transfer to 11 labs and listen to it in
English. That is very true.
One thing I found really funny was when we were together at
this leadership development conference, you actually
enthusiastically, I remember this distinctly remember this,
(17:45):
you enthusiastically told everyone in the in the audience
when we talked about how do you actually stay on top of all the
changes? You're like, Oh my God, you
should all do a podcast. And this was like all your
colleagues from the Bertelsmann universe, So people who are
leading content development companies and media companies
and book publishers and so on. And I thought it was really
funny. I don't know if you saw this,
(18:06):
but like from my perspective at the front of the room, you could
see like these, like the nodding, yeah, this is a great
idea. And then immediately you could
see in their heads this, Oh my God, how do I find the time for
it? And I'd be curious from just a
very practical, like leadership component aspect, how do you
find the time for it? How do you make the time?
(18:27):
Because it isn't. You mentioned it's like you, you
run 2 podcasts a week. That's a very decent time
commitment, prepare, preparation, doing the podcast,
etcetera. I'd be curious.
There must have been a very distinct, very specific thought
in your head where you're like, I am making the time for this
because it will pay back. Yeah, The funny thing is, I did
(18:50):
not start this with these thoughts in mind.
I started this because I wanted to do it.
Or to be super honest, I startedthis because it was an
experiment initially. I wanted to find out if a, if a
block could be also a great HR marketing tool.
And with these things, I always think, I always do it by myself.
(19:13):
I don't read about it, I just doit, see what happens.
And in the case of the block in 2009, it was like I got
immediate feedback and that motivated me to go on.
Initially I just wanted to do itfor a month or two months, but
then I felt, no, this is interesting.
And by the way, I learned something from it.
And by the way, I get to know other interesting people via
(19:37):
this tool. So for me, it was worth it.
And 2009 to 2025, it's a long time.
And every week if you have to, yeah, take three to five hours
to invest in these things. In the long run, it really paid
off for me. But that was not the plan.
(19:58):
I can see it now or since five years or so.
I know that was really great, but there was no plan at all.
It was pure interest and pure curiosity.
That's why I did it. And currently, sometimes I have
weeks where I really think, oh gosh, I have to do a podcast.
I don't want to do it. It's Friday afternoon and I
(20:19):
still have to edit it or something.
It's quite often that I think that.
But All in all, it's really worth it.
So for me it's a good way and. The question how do you take
time? It's just a question of
priorities at the end of the day.
It's the same with sports. If you spend some time to stay
healthy, it's a priority for you.
(20:41):
And there is no saying like you,I don't have time for it.
You, you always have time. If you really want to do it,
then you just don't do other things.
So at the end of the day, it's apure prioritization topic.
In my opinion, that's the answer.
And then I'd be curious, so you mentioned you've been context of
(21:02):
Bertelsmann for 25 years. You've been doing embrace for a
few years. Be curious to hear from your own
leadership as the CEO of this company.
From your own leadership perspective, what have you found
is what do you find today is really important?
What are the leadership like skills?
(21:24):
What is the edge you need to feel like you need to lean in as
a leader to be able to navigate in the context we're operating
in? I can obviously only answer it
for myself. So the answer now is very
subjective to to me as a person and a leader.
To me, authenticity is super, super important and that has a
(21:45):
lot of reasons. But one perspective is I don't
know, 20 years ago when I first came into a leadership role, I
decided for myself, I will be Geo HESA and the private Geo is
the same as a business Geo and there's no difference up in
large. Of course there are there are
(22:05):
certain topics that that are private and so on, but I don't
want to play 2 roles. I just want to be myself.
That was a very basic decision Imade for myself and that's how I
do it since and it fits to me and obviously to a lot of people
I hired. I have a team where I work with
(22:26):
some of these people for also 25years.
So of course there some people went, some people came.
But this authenticity I think isgood because people know they
can read you. There's no no surprises and you
can always be very open, even with topics that are delicate or
(22:47):
not so easy. Then you just say this is a
difficult situation, but let's talk about it.
Let's try to find a solution together.
And sometimes the solution is people have to go, but you can
do it also this way or that way.And most of the times I was able
to do it in a way that if I meetthem later again, we can still
(23:08):
have great talk and still a connection.
So this authenticity and also this human side to me is super
important. And, and the third thing I think
is to know your strengths and weaknesses.
And I know what I can do good orwhat I'm good at.
And I pretty much know, but I'm not so good.
And I try to build up a team that's very diverse.
(23:33):
And sometimes it's, how can I say it's if you have that and if
you have a diverse team, you have a lot of discussions.
Nothing comes easy. There's always discussions and
compromises and trying to find the right way and take takes
time. Sometimes you're not so fast,
but in the long run, I'm super convinced that you are, that you
(23:55):
have the better outcome in the long run, not in the short run.
And perhaps a different behaviour, a different way of
leading is better, but I believein long term relationships, in
long term developments. And yeah, that these are the
topics that are really super important to me that until now
(24:17):
worked also for me, I have to say.
I love the fact. So you use the word authenticity
and I think that really truly shines.
When we met each other, I saw you in an Embrace hoodie where
everybody else was wearing shirts.
You're just like your energy. One thing, and I think I
mentioned this to you when we saw each other at the Embrace
(24:37):
festival. One thing I found really
fascinating is when I look at the visual identity of Embrace,
I think first of all, I think it's a very much a an expression
of your authenticity. It is for everybody.
We'll put the link into the shownotes.
You should check it out. It's very edgy.
I find it's very, I described itto you as very Berlin.
(24:58):
And the interesting thing about this is this can become, I find
with a lot of companies very quickly, very gimmicky in a way.
It's yeah, we want to be edgy and like we have this cool
visual identity. But for you guys, it felt like,
no, this is you and I find this interesting.
If you can just talk a little bit about what I find so
(25:19):
interesting is you're in a pretty quote UN quote stodgy
industry. Like it's pretty conservative,
right? Like you look at the a lot of
the players in the HR tech space, they're very like white
and blue colours and the soft logo and it's very like very
conservative and you're like lime green and edgy lettering.
How does this work for you? Actually it worked so far pretty
(25:42):
good I have to say. But it must fit.
The whole authenticity topic is more than just being honest and
accountable and stuff like that.It's also that you can be like
you are and others will accept it because they feel at the same
moment that this is the truth and people are not stupid.
(26:05):
People will also feel if it's not the truth.
And I think you can also wear a shirt.
You don't have to wear a hoodie necessarily, But it's about the
inner. How can I say, yeah, the inner
mindset you have that that that people will feel when you talk
to them. And this is something I wanted
(26:26):
to make visible. And in a pretty conservative
industry such as HR, if you think about new technology, new
topics, new ways how to deal with each other, then you can
also transfer it to the way how it looks.
It's a little bit rebellious, but not too rebellious because
(26:47):
at the end of the day, it's still HR, but and it can make
fun in Germany. It's interesting because when we
started the festival, I, I sat down and said, I, I want to
create a business conference which I would like to attend.
That was the main thought. And this should make fun.
It's yeah, you should learn something.
(27:09):
You should have fun. There should be a party.
And sometimes I'm getting asked,why do you do this in a festival
style with all these gimmicks and a party and live music?
I said, yeah, it's a true festival.
Yeah, but why is it a festival now?
I say because it's more fun thanto just have a business
conference. And I spend so much time with
(27:29):
work. I want to have fun.
And it can be great. And even HR can be great and
interesting and dynamic and fascinating.
And I'm missing that pretty muchin Germany, But honestly, in the
US, even more so. When I was in the USI felt, wow,
this feels like Germany HR 10 years ago, super conservative
(27:51):
and they do get great things in the US, don't get me wrong.
Yeah, so really great providers.They are great technology, but.
You know what I find fascinatingis one thing your conference
does really is because it is different because it is a
festival and not a conference. I found that the conversations
you have in the hallway are insanely meaningful, insanely
(28:16):
fast. It's just because everybody is
just like in such a good frame of mind that you immediately get
to the heart of it without any of the pomp duck and
circumstances around it. So that that speaks to your
authenticity. Garrett, let me like wrap this
and I I'd be very curious to hear looking into the future.
(28:37):
Where do you see, where do you see the industry going?
Like where do you see embrace going?
Where do you see HR tech going? If you're thinking about the
festival like 10 years from now,what do you have on the stage
there? That's a.
Great question because I think about what we have next year on
the stage and I don't have no answer yet.
Yeah, as I said within our conversation, HR, how it exists
(29:02):
today, either will be dead and not there anymore.
All the administrative tasks will be done by machines, that's
clear. So I think the focus must be the
cutting edge of the other topicsand they're see mainly 22
pillars as I mentioned before, 1is the mindset and the other one
is technology. How to deal with that and how to
(29:23):
really make a connection betweentech and human beings.
So what I could also envision isto really broaden it up.
It will always have as long as Ido it in HR core.
But really not to say this is not HR anymore.
We can't cover it. Of course, you can think about
it like that, but I would be super curious to get other
(29:46):
speakers that you are also not coming from HR.
So I always try to invite peoplewho have a different background,
who did things in completely different industries.
And that's I think something I could envision in the future,
that it's really more open. And I don't know if all these
(30:08):
industry descriptions and boxes really are there in the future
because things also due to technology will mingle more.
I think there will be more a mixof everything and it will always
be humans and technology. So probably I have an HR
(30:28):
perspective on this, but it willalways be these topics.
I love it. It's the perfect way to end this
conversation. It's about humans and
technology. I always, I like to think about
it, particularly when it comes to AI, really about this idea of
amplifying a human rather than the I know that there's some
replacement going on, no doubt, but I think really the
(30:49):
opportunity is the amplificationrather than the replacement.
Which I like the idea. I completely agree.
Advice now. Gero, thank you so much for your
time. We'll have links to your
festival, your company, your blog, your podcast in the show
notes. All the very, very best for next
year's festival, all the very best for the company.
(31:09):
Thank you. This was an incredible
conversation. Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me, it was as always great talking to
you. Sorry for my little rusty
English because I spoke French the last three weeks.
It was quite difficult to switchtoday.
You're perfect. Thank you so much.
Disruption. So if HR people mainly think
about HR as an administrative task, for instance to provide a
good payroll, then I would say then in five years from now or
10 years from now, there is no HR anymore.
It's done, it's gone. It will be done by Tech Tour.
(00:31):
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode
of Disrupt Disruption. In today's episode, I got to
speak with Gero Hesa. Gero is the CEO of Embrace, a
part of Bertelsmann Investment specialising in innovative
solutions for recruiting, retention and HR tech.
Leading a team of 550, he focuses on making the workplace
more human, optimistic and technology driven.
(00:53):
He also runs the award-winning block and podcast Zotkorn,
offering inspiration for work culture.
Since 2009, Gerrogut recognized as a top HR influencer and 1 of
50 HR pioneers by Pasenovichev Magazine.
And trust me, this is an amazingconversation.
Guerrero, it is amazing to see you again after the incredible
(01:15):
Embrace Festival. Thank you so much for the
invitation and I can honestly say in the feedback to the
festival was very positive, but almost all people refer to you
as a great speaker, very motivating person and also the
content, it was something that the people really liked.
Yes, thank you so much. You have to say this.
(01:37):
You're contractually obligated to say this because you're on my
podcast. In Germany you would say you can
give me the 10 year old later, but I don't know, it's your
honesty and I think you saw it also on Facebook.
There was so much very positive feedback afterwards, especially
also for you. Yes.
Thank you. Before we get into leadership
and thinking about the future, I'd be very curious to hear.
(02:01):
I find it fascinating. So you're running AHR Tech
Company, but you also decided toset up AHR Tech Festival, which
is a conference which I attended, and I actually didn't
see all that much HR tech stuff on the stage.
I'd be really curious to understand a little bit like
(02:23):
what was the thinking process behind setting up the festival
and then particularly making thefestival something which isn't
necessarily about HR tech per SE, but much more about the
broader context of how do we actually lead and how do we show
up in this world. Yeah.
At the end of the day, perhaps we have to have a look at the
beginnings of this festival, which was 2018.
(02:47):
And at that time, our focus was employer branding and HR
marketing and stuff like that. So we did 2 editions really
focused on on these topics. And then I felt that's nice and
that's interesting. And that should always be part
of what we're doing at Embrace. But technology becomes more and
more important. That's one thing also in HR, but
(03:09):
you could say in all different fields, in every business, in
all aspects of every business. That was logical next step for
the development of the festival.And the other point is to look
more to the how can I say culture side of things, the
corporate culture mindset, how people yeah work and act with
(03:34):
each other. And nowadays these are the 2
main topics in my opinion. One thing is what you can do
with new technology, especially AI.
There were a lot of AI driven topics on the festival.
But on the other hand, how do you deal with that?
How do you deal with change? How you how do you ensure that
(03:55):
people are identify with what your company is doing?
How do you keep them motivated in in times like these where
change is the normal? And so I think these two pillars
are very important on the one hand, the tech part, on the
other hand, more the mindset, culture, impact that people have
on work. Interesting what I found so
(04:15):
fascinating. So we have met at a Bertelsmann
leadership development program and stayed in touch afterwards.
What I find so interesting aboutyour perspective is you're very
curious and really interested in, as you mentioned, mindset
and leadership and how does the future look like?
But you're coming, which is interesting to me from a
(04:35):
perspective of the employer. So not just necessarily like the
leader themself, but the people who hire the leader or the
people who have to train the leader.
Are the people who have to make sure that the good leaders stay
within the group or company, right?
Exactly. I'd be very curious, just high
level, if you're thinking about today's environment and
(04:56):
increased uncertainty, ambiguity, all that good stuff,
all bad stuff. I'd be curious to to hear what
is your sense of what is it? What are the big challenges
people face these days on the HRside?
Like what is the thing which like keeps them up at night?
I'd say depending on the economic situation.
(05:17):
So my answer like two or three years ago would have been to
attract the right people and to keep the right people.
Nowadays in Germany we have a crisis, difficult times from an
economy. Make a point of view, I'd say
it's still to keep the right talent and it's still underlying
(05:39):
to get the right people. But that's more a topic that's
very much related to the demographic change because
everybody knows that due to the demographic change, we will have
talent or we in some fields we already have talent shortage and
when the economy picks up again,we would see that right away.
(05:59):
So this will be a very big topic.
Aside from that, I would say it's coping with change and
enabling people to cope with thecontinuously changing
environment. How do you make sure that people
are not frustrated? How do you make sure that they
are willing to keep keep the pace that we have currently?
(06:24):
I think these things are super super important and they are
also related to each other. You said something which I would
love to get your take on becausethere is this interesting
dichotomy between on one hand, absolutely you hear talent
shortage particularly in westernworld like Germany, for example,
ageing, ageing population and ageing workforce.
(06:44):
On the flip side of that, you have this like interesting
narrative currently, which is OAI is going to eat all of those
jobs. How do you reconcile those two
things from your perspective? As you saw on the conference, on
the festival, I try to get as many perspectives on this as
possible because the real truth we would see in hindsight, so we
(07:06):
could see exposed in three yearsor five years what what really
happened. So in in my opinion, it's super
important to to have different perspectives on this.
And from my point of view, thereare two basic ways how you could
tell this story. You could say, yeah, this will
all get away. Talent shortage, Yeah, now it
(07:29):
might be there, but in five years from now, no, we have the
problem completely in in the other way around.
You could say that you have the old storytelling.
We always had phases of big change and drops gut.
How can I say we didn't need those jobs anymore?
But there there were new jobs coming due to the technological
(07:52):
change. And I think both of these
stories are right, but I don't know the percentage and that's a
problem we have. On the one hand, I think my
personal opinion is more that technology will create new jobs.
Yes, we will also have a lot of jobs that are not needed
anymore. But All in all, I'm pretty sure
(08:14):
that we will we won't have the the situation that there is no
talent shortage anymore depends on the job profiles.
So there might be job profiles that are completely not needed
anymore and then other job profiles that are super
important. And the big question is the
workforce. Can you transform the workforce
(08:35):
that they do the jobs that are really needed?
And of course, I have doubts that not every worker will be
willing or we'll have the capacity to really work in a new
field. So that's a very open discussion
in my opinion. Yeah, Another interesting point
I find is at least here in the United States, I'm pretty
(08:57):
curious to hear what your like senses of the ground truth in
Europe. A lot of conversation you
currently hear is companies, HR professionals in those
companies, they're very gleeful about the fact that they're
replacing entry level jobs with AI, right?
So, Oh yeah, all these entry level jobs are cutting like AI
(09:18):
is going to do this. It's amazing.
It's cheaper, better, whatever, faster or whatever.
Which brings up an interesting question, because if you don't
have the entry level job, how doyou ever get to like media like
the mid levels and the high level jobs if you're not
training your people? And I'd be curious to hear is A
is this a thing in Europe? And B, what's your perspective
on this because it feels so short sighted to me.
(09:40):
As we discussed that on our festival.
So yes, it is a topic. However, I assume that it's in
the in the US it's more mainstream topic than in
Germany. I saw that last September when I
visited the HR tech conference in Las Vegas that that was a
topic there. And in Germany, you discuss it
in certain groups of people. We're really focusing on on on
(10:04):
these topics. So it's not that it's not really
a mainstream topic. It's a good question.
So if you don't have a junior programmer anymore who can
become a senior programmer tomorrow, that's a question
behind of it. And I think companies have to
make sure that they deal with this in a way that it's not
(10:26):
black or white. Yeah.
So of course you want to benefitfrom all the good things that AI
brings with it from an economic point of view, yeah, less, less
workforce, you save money, your margin might be higher, but to
do this by 100% is probably not a good idea.
So you have to really be cautious other way and the other
(10:49):
way around. I really asked the question, who
is working in 10 years from now?Who is able to work in 10 years
from now? And this is a discussion.
When you think about AI and all the potential it it probably
has, it's a big question if you really start thinking about
this, if you get into a rabbit hole.
(11:10):
Interesting. What would you say are the, if
you're thinking about like the whatever it is, like the five or
ten year time frame, looking from your perspective, HRHR tech
development of this industry or the sector, I'd be curious to to
get a sense of like where do yousee this going?
What are we? What are the big trends you're
(11:30):
seeing as in automation? I don't know clearly the use of
AI, but where do you think your industry is going?
I think our industry is really depending on how the industry
defines itself. So if HR people mainly think
about HR as an administrative task, for instance to provide a
(11:55):
good payroll, then I would say then in five years from now or
10 years from now, there is no HR anymore.
It's done, it's gone. It will be done by tech tools,
which already started. If you define HI in another way,
if you say more, it's about cultural impact, identification,
(12:16):
the mindset, the way how we workwith each other.
You'll see it more from a very strategic role.
I think it might be more important than ever in a time
where you have more and more technology and more and more
automation. Because at the end of the day,
where's the human side of what acompany does?
(12:37):
And HR could really be responsible for this, or not
fully responsible, because it's also, of course, a big topic for
the leaders in a company. But but who should care for
these things if not HR? It's not the CFOI suppose.
Yeah, interesting. So how do you envision then the
(13:00):
role of HR as in if you think about the context of a company
and you've got like you see likeyou've got your CEO, your CFO,
your CEO or like all of these like units, how do you envision
this will evolve over time then?I suppose that these topics,
workforce transformation, cultural development, but also
training will be topics are topics and will be even more so
(13:24):
topics that are the most important topics for for C level
in the future. And in my perspective, a strong
HR person would really define together with the C level what
are the rules of this company? How do we want to work with each
other? How one do we want to have a
(13:45):
clever mix within the workforce also?
And with workforce, I don't onlymean people, I also mean
machines. And so if you talk about all
this genetic AI stuff, you should really take a look at at
this as well. How do you work with a genetic
AI? Co workers, if you will?
(14:07):
In my opinion, it's super important for HR to really focus
on the technological developmentand then really combine that
with a human factor in a company.
Super interesting. One thing I find very curious
about you is you're extremely curious and I love that.
And you're also, you're really thoughtful about the future.
(14:28):
It's like every conversation we had always sparked something in
me, whereas, Oh, I need to look into this.
This is interesting. I'd be just curious on a very
personal level. You also lead a company, right?
Embrace as a company is like what, 500 people or something?
It's a big company. How as a leader do you see,
sorry, how as a leader do you keep up with what's happening in
(14:50):
the world and how do you like create this like space and the
the ability for you to think about the future?
That's a very good question because Embrace is not a company
on its own, but it belongs to a huge corporation, the Battlesman
Corporation. And so I'm not totally free.
(15:12):
I work within a system and I do that now for 25 years.
So I pretty much know that you have to work within the system.
You might change little things here or there, but the overall
system, I won't be able to change that.
That would be stupid because thesystem then would say, OK, then
do this somewhere else. And so you got to know the rules
(15:35):
of the system. That's one thing.
And if you ask now about EmbraceItself, I'd say I'm curious.
Yes, but I have my own podcast and blog since 2009.
I started the blog in 2009, the podcast in 2018.
And every week I do 2 podcast sessions.
(15:56):
And at the end of the day, that's my way how to cope with
the future. Because I talk to people, I
learned from them and them and Iget new thoughts and new ideas
and a little spark here, a little spark there, perhaps a
little bit like you are doing this right here and now.
That's a very good development thing.
(16:18):
But of course, you must be the person who is willing to really
invest every Week 2 hours or three or five hours into these
things. And in your great book Disrupt
Disruption, which is over here in my in my book collection, you
also said it really makes sense to really take some time to
(16:39):
think about the future. And you can of course also do it
in other ways. You can read books, you can
visit conferences, but my way isreally mainly to to do this via
the podcast and the blog. So that's a good way to, to keep
on the latest or to know the latest things that are happening
in HR because continuously I read things here or there.
(17:02):
And then if I think it's interesting, I call the person
and say, Hey, are you willing todo a podcast session with me?
And then I learn something. So for me individually, that's a
very good way how to really stayon top of things as much as it's
possible, at least for me. I love that and I love your
podcast. We'll link to this, of course,
(17:24):
in the show notes. A Full disclosure, it's in
German, but it is worth listening to if but you.
Have AI tools if you want to listen to it in English.
You can easily transfer to 11 labs and listen to it in
English. That is very true.
One thing I found really funny was when we were together at
this leadership development conference, you actually
enthusiastically, I remember this distinctly remember this,
(17:45):
you enthusiastically told everyone in the in the audience
when we talked about how do you actually stay on top of all the
changes? You're like, Oh my God, you
should all do a podcast. And this was like all your
colleagues from the Bertelsmann universe, So people who are
leading content development companies and media companies
and book publishers and so on. And I thought it was really
funny. I don't know if you saw this,
(18:06):
but like from my perspective at the front of the room, you could
see like these, like the nodding, yeah, this is a great
idea. And then immediately you could
see in their heads this, Oh my God, how do I find the time for
it? And I'd be curious from just a
very practical, like leadership component aspect, how do you
find the time for it? How do you make the time?
(18:27):
Because it isn't. You mentioned it's like you, you
run 2 podcasts a week. That's a very decent time
commitment, prepare, preparation, doing the podcast,
etcetera. I'd be curious.
There must have been a very distinct, very specific thought
in your head where you're like, I am making the time for this
because it will pay back. Yeah, The funny thing is, I did
(18:50):
not start this with these thoughts in mind.
I started this because I wanted to do it.
Or to be super honest, I startedthis because it was an
experiment initially. I wanted to find out if a, if a
block could be also a great HR marketing tool.
And with these things, I always think, I always do it by myself.
(19:13):
I don't read about it, I just doit, see what happens.
And in the case of the block in 2009, it was like I got
immediate feedback and that motivated me to go on.
Initially I just wanted to do itfor a month or two months, but
then I felt, no, this is interesting.
And by the way, I learned something from it.
And by the way, I get to know other interesting people via
(19:37):
this tool. So for me, it was worth it.
And 2009 to 2025, it's a long time.
And every week if you have to, yeah, take three to five hours
to invest in these things. In the long run, it really paid
off for me. But that was not the plan.
(19:58):
I can see it now or since five years or so.
I know that was really great, but there was no plan at all.
It was pure interest and pure curiosity.
That's why I did it. And currently, sometimes I have
weeks where I really think, oh gosh, I have to do a podcast.
I don't want to do it. It's Friday afternoon and I
(20:19):
still have to edit it or something.
It's quite often that I think that.
But All in all, it's really worth it.
So for me it's a good way and. The question how do you take
time? It's just a question of
priorities at the end of the day.
It's the same with sports. If you spend some time to stay
healthy, it's a priority for you.
(20:41):
And there is no saying like you,I don't have time for it.
You, you always have time. If you really want to do it,
then you just don't do other things.
So at the end of the day, it's apure prioritization topic.
In my opinion, that's the answer.
And then I'd be curious, so you mentioned you've been context of
(21:02):
Bertelsmann for 25 years. You've been doing embrace for a
few years. Be curious to hear from your own
leadership as the CEO of this company.
From your own leadership perspective, what have you found
is what do you find today is really important?
What are the leadership like skills?
(21:24):
What is the edge you need to feel like you need to lean in as
a leader to be able to navigate in the context we're operating
in? I can obviously only answer it
for myself. So the answer now is very
subjective to to me as a person and a leader.
To me, authenticity is super, super important and that has a
(21:45):
lot of reasons. But one perspective is I don't
know, 20 years ago when I first came into a leadership role, I
decided for myself, I will be Geo HESA and the private Geo is
the same as a business Geo and there's no difference up in
large. Of course there are there are
(22:05):
certain topics that that are private and so on, but I don't
want to play 2 roles. I just want to be myself.
That was a very basic decision Imade for myself and that's how I
do it since and it fits to me and obviously to a lot of people
I hired. I have a team where I work with
(22:26):
some of these people for also 25years.
So of course there some people went, some people came.
But this authenticity I think isgood because people know they
can read you. There's no no surprises and you
can always be very open, even with topics that are delicate or
(22:47):
not so easy. Then you just say this is a
difficult situation, but let's talk about it.
Let's try to find a solution together.
And sometimes the solution is people have to go, but you can
do it also this way or that way.And most of the times I was able
to do it in a way that if I meetthem later again, we can still
(23:08):
have great talk and still a connection.
So this authenticity and also this human side to me is super
important. And, and the third thing I think
is to know your strengths and weaknesses.
And I know what I can do good orwhat I'm good at.
And I pretty much know, but I'm not so good.
And I try to build up a team that's very diverse.
(23:33):
And sometimes it's, how can I say it's if you have that and if
you have a diverse team, you have a lot of discussions.
Nothing comes easy. There's always discussions and
compromises and trying to find the right way and take takes
time. Sometimes you're not so fast,
but in the long run, I'm super convinced that you are, that you
(23:55):
have the better outcome in the long run, not in the short run.
And perhaps a different behaviour, a different way of
leading is better, but I believein long term relationships, in
long term developments. And yeah, that these are the
topics that are really super important to me that until now
(24:17):
worked also for me, I have to say.
I love the fact. So you use the word authenticity
and I think that really truly shines.
When we met each other, I saw you in an Embrace hoodie where
everybody else was wearing shirts.
You're just like your energy. One thing, and I think I
mentioned this to you when we saw each other at the Embrace
(24:37):
festival. One thing I found really
fascinating is when I look at the visual identity of Embrace,
I think first of all, I think it's a very much a an expression
of your authenticity. It is for everybody.
We'll put the link into the shownotes.
You should check it out. It's very edgy.
I find it's very, I described itto you as very Berlin.
(24:58):
And the interesting thing about this is this can become, I find
with a lot of companies very quickly, very gimmicky in a way.
It's yeah, we want to be edgy and like we have this cool
visual identity. But for you guys, it felt like,
no, this is you and I find this interesting.
If you can just talk a little bit about what I find so
(25:19):
interesting is you're in a pretty quote UN quote stodgy
industry. Like it's pretty conservative,
right? Like you look at the a lot of
the players in the HR tech space, they're very like white
and blue colours and the soft logo and it's very like very
conservative and you're like lime green and edgy lettering.
How does this work for you? Actually it worked so far pretty
(25:42):
good I have to say. But it must fit.
The whole authenticity topic is more than just being honest and
accountable and stuff like that.It's also that you can be like
you are and others will accept it because they feel at the same
moment that this is the truth and people are not stupid.
(26:05):
People will also feel if it's not the truth.
And I think you can also wear a shirt.
You don't have to wear a hoodie necessarily, But it's about the
inner. How can I say, yeah, the inner
mindset you have that that that people will feel when you talk
to them. And this is something I wanted
(26:26):
to make visible. And in a pretty conservative
industry such as HR, if you think about new technology, new
topics, new ways how to deal with each other, then you can
also transfer it to the way how it looks.
It's a little bit rebellious, but not too rebellious because
(26:47):
at the end of the day, it's still HR, but and it can make
fun in Germany. It's interesting because when we
started the festival, I, I sat down and said, I, I want to
create a business conference which I would like to attend.
That was the main thought. And this should make fun.
It's yeah, you should learn something.
(27:09):
You should have fun. There should be a party.
And sometimes I'm getting asked,why do you do this in a festival
style with all these gimmicks and a party and live music?
I said, yeah, it's a true festival.
Yeah, but why is it a festival now?
I say because it's more fun thanto just have a business
conference. And I spend so much time with
(27:29):
work. I want to have fun.
And it can be great. And even HR can be great and
interesting and dynamic and fascinating.
And I'm missing that pretty muchin Germany, But honestly, in the
US, even more so. When I was in the USI felt, wow,
this feels like Germany HR 10 years ago, super conservative
(27:51):
and they do get great things in the US, don't get me wrong.
Yeah, so really great providers.They are great technology, but.
You know what I find fascinatingis one thing your conference
does really is because it is different because it is a
festival and not a conference. I found that the conversations
you have in the hallway are insanely meaningful, insanely
(28:16):
fast. It's just because everybody is
just like in such a good frame of mind that you immediately get
to the heart of it without any of the pomp duck and
circumstances around it. So that that speaks to your
authenticity. Garrett, let me like wrap this
and I I'd be very curious to hear looking into the future.
(28:37):
Where do you see, where do you see the industry going?
Like where do you see embrace going?
Where do you see HR tech going? If you're thinking about the
festival like 10 years from now,what do you have on the stage
there? That's a.
Great question because I think about what we have next year on
the stage and I don't have no answer yet.
Yeah, as I said within our conversation, HR, how it exists
(29:02):
today, either will be dead and not there anymore.
All the administrative tasks will be done by machines, that's
clear. So I think the focus must be the
cutting edge of the other topicsand they're see mainly 22
pillars as I mentioned before, 1is the mindset and the other one
is technology. How to deal with that and how to
(29:23):
really make a connection betweentech and human beings.
So what I could also envision isto really broaden it up.
It will always have as long as Ido it in HR core.
But really not to say this is not HR anymore.
We can't cover it. Of course, you can think about
it like that, but I would be super curious to get other
(29:46):
speakers that you are also not coming from HR.
So I always try to invite peoplewho have a different background,
who did things in completely different industries.
And that's I think something I could envision in the future,
that it's really more open. And I don't know if all these
(30:08):
industry descriptions and boxes really are there in the future
because things also due to technology will mingle more.
I think there will be more a mixof everything and it will always
be humans and technology. So probably I have an HR
(30:28):
perspective on this, but it willalways be these topics.
I love it. It's the perfect way to end this
conversation. It's about humans and
technology. I always, I like to think about
it, particularly when it comes to AI, really about this idea of
amplifying a human rather than the I know that there's some
replacement going on, no doubt, but I think really the
(30:49):
opportunity is the amplificationrather than the replacement.
Which I like the idea. I completely agree.
Advice now. Gero, thank you so much for your
time. We'll have links to your
festival, your company, your blog, your podcast in the show
notes. All the very, very best for next
year's festival, all the very best for the company.
(31:09):
Thank you. This was an incredible
conversation. Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me, it was as always great talking to
you. Sorry for my little rusty
English because I spoke French the last three weeks.
It was quite difficult to switchtoday.
You're perfect. Thank you so much.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.