January 12, 2025 • 19 mins
Guy and Michelle explore the concept of "soft leadership" - not about being soft, but about being more considerate and collaborative. They discuss how this approach, while sometimes seen as less efficient, often yields better results and stronger relationships.
Key Discussion Points:
- Indra Nooyi's (former PepsiCo CEO) journey from a blunt leadership style to a more collaborative approach
- The difference between leadership in structured environments (like aviation) vs everyday situations
- Why collaboration beats dictatorial management in modern leadership
- The power of self-assessment over traditional feedback
Notable Example:
Indra Nooyi's experience at PepsiCo, where she was advised to "be careful about throwing hand grenades" and instead adopt a more collaborative questioning approach.
Practical Leadership Techniques:
1. Building Trust Over Time
- Start collaborative to build trust
- Direct commands become more effective once trust is established
- Relationship building enables occasional directness when needed
2. Coaching vs Mentoring Approach:
- Coaching: Asking questions to help people find their own answers
- Mentoring: Sharing knowledge only after identifying knowledge gaps
- Using "Would it be worth considering..." instead of giving direct orders
3. Self-Assessment Model:
Key questions to ask:
- "How are you going with this?"
- "What's working well?"
- "Would you change anything?"
Real-World Applications:
- Parenting example: Breaking down overwhelming tasks (like cleaning a room) into manageable steps
- Workplace scenario: Building long-term trust enables occasional direct instructions
- Training context: Helping people develop self-awareness and assessment skills
Key Quote:
"Soft leadership isn't soft - it's collaborative and gives people agency."
Takeaway Message:
The episode emphasises that effective leadership isn't about being "soft" - it's about creating psychological safety, building trust, and empowering others to think for themselves. This approach might take more time initially but leads to better outcomes and stronger relationships.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
G'day leaders. In this episode we talk about soft leadership. It's not so much
(00:06):
about being soft, it's more being considerate. We talk about the former CEO
of Pepsi and how she was given some very powerful advice in her career on the way
she spoke to her employees and her direct reports to get a better result. We
go into the topic of coaching and mentoring and why self-assessment is a
(00:27):
much better model than giving feedback. Enjoy.
Why did it count backwards?
Are they? We're now recording.
What? Hello captain.
What do I say?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
(00:47):
What are we going to talk about?
I don't know. So, leadership, life and everything else.
Yeah.
And we're live?
No, we're recording.
I'm alive?
You're alive, yeah.
(01:08):
And we're going to talk about softer leadership.
Yeah, this is, I saw an article a little while ago now and I, it resonated with me
because I have been guilty of what this woman, the CEO had done previously.
And I had to learn what she learnt and yeah, it definitely was a result.
(01:35):
So, rather than being cryptic about it, the article I read was about Indra Nui,
who was the CEO of Pepsi from 2006 to 2018.
Now, she's written a biography and it's called My Life in Full, Work, Family and Our Future.
And the, her biography, basically as a leader, she said that she was very blunt in her drive
(02:01):
to make sure that they made correct decisions.
And you know, Pepsi's a large company, she was CEO, so she had a lot of responsibility.
And she took that very seriously.
So, she said she was guilty in some meetings, she'd comment on plans directly
and sometimes point out why she thought that the strategy wouldn't work.
(02:22):
And she'd actually say your strategy makes no sense or there's no way you can deliver the return
you have assumed in your financial model.
So, people, you know, may have been a little bit.
Very blunt in her approach.
Yeah, yeah.
And she'd just tell them as it was, rather no niceties about it.
And then George Fisher, who was the CEO prior to her, actually pulled her aside and said,
(02:49):
be careful about throwing hand grenades, which I love that term,
because again, I have been guilty of doing this.
And he said to her, look, take on a different approach.
And then if you do it a softer way of asking questions,
which sounds more collaborative rather than directorial or dictatorship,
(03:13):
then you're going to get more back.
And people won't close off because they're not threatened, they're psychological safety.
So, when I was learning to become a captain, I was told, instructed,
that you leave out the niceties, no please or thank you,
because they're commands, they're requirements, not requests.
(03:34):
And the thing was that the other person on the end of it knew that
because they were trained to take that and to receive it and to respond appropriately to that.
Is it when you're talking to your FO?
Yeah, and cabin crew and other people in the mix.
Everybody knew their role, everybody knew the communication style that was expected
(03:57):
and how to respond to that and not take it personally because it was for safety.
So, there's nothing wrong with that and that was appropriate for that role and in those situations at work.
However, I would sometimes do that at home.
And so I would take, I'd come from work and I'd still be in that mindset.
(04:19):
In that mode.
Yeah, yeah.
And I would not bark orders, but I would be very direct.
And I was pulled up on it sometimes by partners or my kids.
You're not a captain at home, Mum.
And it would remind me, oops, put my head in.
Maybe you should start wearing the epaulettes at home, because I said so.
(04:43):
Yeah, but it was, I needed, unfortunately, I needed that reminder that, hey, you know,
normally people, how they communicate, if you want,
what's that saying about honey attracts more flies than vinegar?
Is that the term?
I think, I think.
Yeah, it's honey attracts more flies or bees or anyway, it's one of those.
You attract more birds with honey.
(05:08):
Well, anyway, be nice, be sweet.
That's right, vinegar not so much.
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
So don't throw hand grenades and so come at it from a softer approach.
It makes sense, doesn't it?
Yeah.
So we both grew up in an era where our first jobs, our managers taught us what to do.
I remember my first job, I took a year off uni, much to my parents' disgust.
(05:33):
And I went and got a job in a photo laboratory.
If you remember those 35 mil films, I used to be a printer.
So I used to sit there.
On the sick bags, you could get you.
That's it, on the airplanes.
Yeah, yeah, you could.
And so I remember I was only, I think, 18 or 19.
I was 19, I was.
And just about to turn 20 and I reported to a guy that was 22.
(05:55):
And yeah, and he just tell me what to do.
We clocked on, clocked off, and we were told what to do.
It was very 1960s managerial style of I'm in charge.
I will make the, I will instruct and you will follow.
But it's obviously changed over the next 30 odd years.
We don't and can't lead like that anymore.
(06:17):
People want to follow leaders.
They don't want to be managed.
So managers have got authority over you.
A leader is somebody that you want to follow.
You want to follow them and you choose who you follow.
And one of the factors that we teach in the leadership courses is that you become the sort of person
other people want to follow when they feel as though they've got a sense of control
(06:39):
and they feel as though they've got agency.
And so what you've just described, her original style, the former CEO of Pepsi,
she was, I guess, quite direct, throwing hand grenades, firm, dictatorial.
Well, she enjoyed receiving information that way, straight into the point, direct into the point.
(07:00):
So she would give it the way she preferred.
She would give it that way.
Yep.
So, yeah, that's what she knew.
And she couldn't understand why.
And was it in her book, it actually says she was slightly annoyed that she had to adjust.
Yeah. And pander to these people's feelings and things.
But she did see that it actually got results.
(07:21):
Well, many people don't realize you can get the same results with a softer approach.
Yeah. A lot of people say, no, I've just got to tell people what to do because it's the fastest way to get things done.
But yeah, OK, it might be the fastest way to get things done.
You can also get things done with a more collaborative, consultative sort of approach using coaching and mentoring sort of techniques
and build a relationship at the same time so that eventually you can be more direct because the person trusts you.
(07:47):
So one of the examples I give in the leadership and the time management course is on delegation.
So, Michelle, imagine this is your first day on the job.
I'm your manager and I walk up to you and say, Michelle, drop everything.
I need you to do this. Get it done by three.
How would you feel about my management style if that was your first day on the job?
Yeah, it was very direct.
(08:08):
Yeah, very dictatorial.
Yeah. But imagine that we've been working together for 10, 20 years and I walk up to you and I say, Michelle, drop everything.
This has to be done by three. And you go, no problem.
Yeah. What's the difference?
Because you've had a relationship for 10, 20 years.
10, 20 years of you getting to trust me, know me, and I've probably been very consultative and collaborative with you.
(08:32):
I've given you agency and I've empowered you and all the things that we need to build good relationships as leaders.
And so you now trust me. So when I do need to be direct, it's welcomed.
I can walk up and say, drop this, drop everything, do this, three o'clock and you go, yeah, no problem.
Because you would know that that's not my typical style.
Correct. But I've built up the amount of rapport and trust with you so that when I do do that, you don't question it.
(08:58):
You don't think it's me being dictatorial. It's me being absolutely in a critical situation and I rely on you.
And you build that by being softer, more collaborative.
Yes. Yeah. So asking questions. And it's similar to what we teach in their coaching and mentoring, isn't it?
That's right. And you can use it not just at work, which is generally where you have your best behavior as a human.
(09:23):
When you're with people that you work with, but when you come home and with your partner, with your family, with kids, the same.
It does help. And I've done this recently again. I was mentored.
Well, my mentor suggested a certain approach and it helped. Definitely. It was easy.
(09:47):
It was easy. And it was the the guard came down. So it was nice.
So one of the one of the ways that we can use a softer leadership is using the coaching and mentoring techniques.
So coaching and mentoring are two different things. Coaching is in my opinion, this is the way I teach it.
(10:10):
It's asking questions to get people to come up with answers on their own and feel agency.
Mentoring is when you're passing on your skills, knowledge and experience.
Yeah. And you should never pass on your skills, knowledge and experience if the person already has that themselves.
Yeah. So if I say to you, hey, Michelle, I need you to do this. How would you go about it?
And you say, well, I'll do this, this, this. And I go, OK, anything else you'd need to think about?
(10:36):
And you go, oh, yeah, I know I do this. Right. If I'd been thinking that I know how to do it
and I want to pass on that knowledge, but I just said, hey, Michelle, do it like this.
I'm not giving you agency. I'm not actually respecting your knowledge.
And so by asking you, how would you approach it? And you said, oh, I'll do this, this, this.
Then I can look at your knowledge and go, yeah, OK, you've got it. Off you go. Yeah.
(11:00):
Or if I notice that there's a hole in your knowledge. So if I said, how would you approach it?
And you go, well, maybe I'd try this. I said, is there anything else you'd think about?
And you go, oh, no, I don't think so. That's what I call the magic line.
We've reached the edge of your knowledge in that situation. That's where I'd step in and mentor.
So can I make a suggestion? Yeah. And you go, yeah.
(11:21):
I go, hey, would it be worth considering doing it like this?
And so what I'm doing is I'm asking your permission to give a suggestion.
I get your permission. So they're open to the suggestion.
That's it. You're open to the suggestion. And then rather than saying you should do it like this,
I need you to do it like this. Say, hey, would it be worth considering this?
Have you thought about this? And what we're doing, we're calling it softer leadership,
(11:44):
but it's really consultative leadership. It's respecting the fact that you hire good people
and hopefully they can come up with ideas on their own, which gives them agency.
Yeah. And you also learn as well because they may come up with something you hadn't thought of.
That's it. And you can do this with kids, can't you? Like you don't just go up and give orders.
You can say, hey, I need this done. How would you approach it?
(12:07):
Or where do you think we could start? Or something along those lines to give them a bit of agency.
It was funny yesterday we were...
The negotiation stuff. Yeah, we were teaching a group and it was funny,
the dads in the group were saying, ah, just tell them what to do and kick them up the bum if they don't do it.
It's like, how does that work for you?
(12:29):
Yeah. Getting any pushback there? And they were going, it's so frustrating.
They don't do what I'm asking them to do. I said, well, maybe you want to use some coaching
and mentoring techniques and start asking questions.
So for example, if your child doesn't clean their room, let's just say you've asked them and they haven't done it.
Quite often the reason why the child doesn't do it, especially when they're young, is it's just overwhelming.
(12:54):
If they're like a hurricane with their toys and they're just strowing from one end to the other,
that child looks at that mess and wouldn't have a clue in their beautiful little mind on how to or where to start.
And so if you were to say to the child, it gets really daunting, doesn't it? It's kind of overwhelming when it's that messy, isn't it?
(13:15):
And the child goes, yeah. You say, all right, if it's overwhelming, how about we work together to maybe make a plan?
See if we can make this a bit easier for you. They go, oh, okay.
And you say, okay, so if you look around the room, where's one place we could start?
And then they might go, the bed? Oh, that's a great place to start. So what would you do first?
(13:39):
See how there's some stuff on the bed that doesn't belong there? What would you do first?
And they go, oh, maybe take my clothes off the bed and make the bed. Oh, what a great idea.
How about you do that? Once you finish that, come and see me and then we'll make a plan for the next stage of the room cleaning.
And so instead of you saying, clean your bloody room, take that stuff off the bed, put your shoes away,
you're actually asking, firstly, showing them that you understand them by saying, hey, it's daunting, isn't it?
(14:03):
Sometimes it becomes a bit overwhelming. Now they feel as though you're on their side.
You're on their side. You see it from their perspective. And then when you say, hey, where would you start?
You're giving them a bit of agency. You're teaching them to think for themselves. Yeah.
And that's what we're talking about here with regards to softer leadership.
It's less dictatorial, less throwing around management authority and more asking questions, getting people to to come up with ideas.
(14:29):
Well, it's yeah, it's providing psychological safety as well.
And another concept that's very useful here is the topic of self-assessment rather than feedback.
Yeah, because you know when you've stuffed up, you do. And you know potentially where like more so than what the person assessing you does.
(14:52):
Yes, yes, exactly. And if you know what's expected of you, whether you're a kid or an employee or anything,
and you know that you haven't succeeded or you have succeeded, why would you need anyone else to give you feedback?
I find this really interesting. So one of the models that we teach in leadership, we don't teach giving feedback.
(15:14):
We give we teach people how to ask for self-assessment. And it's very, very simple.
It's just saying to the person, hey, Michelle, with regards to that task or that project, how are you going? How are you traveling?
So you're now assessing how you're going. And then the next question I encourage people to ask is what's working well?
(15:35):
What have you learned? And then the third question is would you change anything?
Yeah, that's right. And that gives them an opportunity to and even if they're worried.
So if they are worried about being honest about it, then there's not that psychological safety there.
However, if they do feel that they can be honest, they will often be more honest than about their own performance than you would be.
(15:59):
Yeah, exactly. And if they're if they're a bit deluded about how they're going, you could just say something like, hey, if our goal was to do this, are we there?
Yeah, because I do a lot of coaching, core coaching. I don't do it so much anymore.
But that you know, that question or that little recording, you recall, maybe monitored for coaching and training purposes.
(16:24):
Yeah. So I was the coach and I remember coaching one particular call and it was a very short call, a very abrupt call.
And the customer made some complaint. And so I was coaching this person who made the call.
I said, oh, so how did that call go? Oh, really good. And I said, OK, so what went well? Oh, we got him off the phone quick.
(16:46):
And I said, would you change anything? And they went, no, we got him off the phone quick.
And so they're a bit deluded. They think that that's good customer service.
So I just simply said, OK, so if our goal is to have happy customers and that customer made a complaint, did we achieve our goal?
So rather than me telling them that they didn't do a very good job, I said, if our goal is this and we didn't achieve it, did we did we achieve what we were aiming for?
(17:18):
And I had to basically say no. And I said, OK, so what would you do differently?
And now they're telling me how they should have behaved better in that phone call.
We had a similar approach teaching students to fly. It was very much so.
Initially, you gave them parameters, very strict parameters on learning to fly because it's like driving a car.
(17:40):
Initially, it seems there's so much to do and so much to consider. And whilst you're manipulating the steering wheel or the control column and power and all sorts of things, so hands and feet going everywhere and talking on the radio.
I've got it visual now, hands and feet going everywhere in the cockpit.
But as the student became more proficient and more comfortable, you then start bringing in the feedback, the self-feedback loop and asking them how they went.
(18:08):
Or if they're not confident, getting them to teach you how to fly and telling you what they're doing, almost like a self-pattern.
So you can see how their brain's thinking, what they're concentrating on and then asking them, was that, you know, what did you have trouble with or did you have trouble with anything?
(18:30):
And was there anything you'd change? How do you think you went on that flight? Would you feel confident taking your mum on the flight with you, your family, etc.?
And they would often come up with, oh, no, it's a little bit over here or under here. I wasn't maintaining because I needed to trim and I didn't.
And you're like, yep, you got it. Because flying and driving are dynamic skills, constantly changing.
(18:56):
And if it was just easy like a video game, then, you know, it wouldn't matter.
So they're self-assessing, self-correcting and also self-encouraging.
Yeah. So they're, by being aware of what they needed to do and being able to assess themselves, any situation, they could assess the situation knowing ahead of time what would be required.
(19:19):
Exactly. So this softer leadership isn't soft, it's collaborative. Yeah. And it's giving agency, like you said before.
Yeah. We're going to stop thinking that the best way to get stuff done is to tell people what to do. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good one. Yeah. Good to see you, Michelle. Bye, Guy. Bye.
Well, that was fun. That was fun.
(19:42):
You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our moms. Thanks, mom.
G'day leaders. In this episode we talk about soft leadership. It's not so much
(00:06):
about being soft, it's more being considerate. We talk about the former CEO
of Pepsi and how she was given some very powerful advice in her career on the way
she spoke to her employees and her direct reports to get a better result. We
go into the topic of coaching and mentoring and why self-assessment is a
(00:27):
much better model than giving feedback. Enjoy.
Why did it count backwards?
Are they? We're now recording.
What? Hello captain.
What do I say?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
(00:47):
What are we going to talk about?
I don't know. So, leadership, life and everything else.
Yeah.
And we're live?
No, we're recording.
I'm alive?
You're alive, yeah.
(01:08):
And we're going to talk about softer leadership.
Yeah, this is, I saw an article a little while ago now and I, it resonated with me
because I have been guilty of what this woman, the CEO had done previously.
And I had to learn what she learnt and yeah, it definitely was a result.
(01:35):
So, rather than being cryptic about it, the article I read was about Indra Nui,
who was the CEO of Pepsi from 2006 to 2018.
Now, she's written a biography and it's called My Life in Full, Work, Family and Our Future.
And the, her biography, basically as a leader, she said that she was very blunt in her drive
(02:01):
to make sure that they made correct decisions.
And you know, Pepsi's a large company, she was CEO, so she had a lot of responsibility.
And she took that very seriously.
So, she said she was guilty in some meetings, she'd comment on plans directly
and sometimes point out why she thought that the strategy wouldn't work.
(02:22):
And she'd actually say your strategy makes no sense or there's no way you can deliver the return
you have assumed in your financial model.
So, people, you know, may have been a little bit.
Very blunt in her approach.
Yeah, yeah.
And she'd just tell them as it was, rather no niceties about it.
And then George Fisher, who was the CEO prior to her, actually pulled her aside and said,
(02:49):
be careful about throwing hand grenades, which I love that term,
because again, I have been guilty of doing this.
And he said to her, look, take on a different approach.
And then if you do it a softer way of asking questions,
which sounds more collaborative rather than directorial or dictatorship,
(03:13):
then you're going to get more back.
And people won't close off because they're not threatened, they're psychological safety.
So, when I was learning to become a captain, I was told, instructed,
that you leave out the niceties, no please or thank you,
because they're commands, they're requirements, not requests.
(03:34):
And the thing was that the other person on the end of it knew that
because they were trained to take that and to receive it and to respond appropriately to that.
Is it when you're talking to your FO?
Yeah, and cabin crew and other people in the mix.
Everybody knew their role, everybody knew the communication style that was expected
(03:57):
and how to respond to that and not take it personally because it was for safety.
So, there's nothing wrong with that and that was appropriate for that role and in those situations at work.
However, I would sometimes do that at home.
And so I would take, I'd come from work and I'd still be in that mindset.
(04:19):
In that mode.
Yeah, yeah.
And I would not bark orders, but I would be very direct.
And I was pulled up on it sometimes by partners or my kids.
You're not a captain at home, Mum.
And it would remind me, oops, put my head in.
Maybe you should start wearing the epaulettes at home, because I said so.
(04:43):
Yeah, but it was, I needed, unfortunately, I needed that reminder that, hey, you know,
normally people, how they communicate, if you want,
what's that saying about honey attracts more flies than vinegar?
Is that the term?
I think, I think.
Yeah, it's honey attracts more flies or bees or anyway, it's one of those.
You attract more birds with honey.
(05:08):
Well, anyway, be nice, be sweet.
That's right, vinegar not so much.
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
So don't throw hand grenades and so come at it from a softer approach.
It makes sense, doesn't it?
Yeah.
So we both grew up in an era where our first jobs, our managers taught us what to do.
I remember my first job, I took a year off uni, much to my parents' disgust.
(05:33):
And I went and got a job in a photo laboratory.
If you remember those 35 mil films, I used to be a printer.
So I used to sit there.
On the sick bags, you could get you.
That's it, on the airplanes.
Yeah, yeah, you could.
And so I remember I was only, I think, 18 or 19.
I was 19, I was.
And just about to turn 20 and I reported to a guy that was 22.
(05:55):
And yeah, and he just tell me what to do.
We clocked on, clocked off, and we were told what to do.
It was very 1960s managerial style of I'm in charge.
I will make the, I will instruct and you will follow.
But it's obviously changed over the next 30 odd years.
We don't and can't lead like that anymore.
(06:17):
People want to follow leaders.
They don't want to be managed.
So managers have got authority over you.
A leader is somebody that you want to follow.
You want to follow them and you choose who you follow.
And one of the factors that we teach in the leadership courses is that you become the sort of person
other people want to follow when they feel as though they've got a sense of control
(06:39):
and they feel as though they've got agency.
And so what you've just described, her original style, the former CEO of Pepsi,
she was, I guess, quite direct, throwing hand grenades, firm, dictatorial.
Well, she enjoyed receiving information that way, straight into the point, direct into the point.
(07:00):
So she would give it the way she preferred.
She would give it that way.
Yep.
So, yeah, that's what she knew.
And she couldn't understand why.
And was it in her book, it actually says she was slightly annoyed that she had to adjust.
Yeah. And pander to these people's feelings and things.
But she did see that it actually got results.
(07:21):
Well, many people don't realize you can get the same results with a softer approach.
Yeah. A lot of people say, no, I've just got to tell people what to do because it's the fastest way to get things done.
But yeah, OK, it might be the fastest way to get things done.
You can also get things done with a more collaborative, consultative sort of approach using coaching and mentoring sort of techniques
and build a relationship at the same time so that eventually you can be more direct because the person trusts you.
(07:47):
So one of the examples I give in the leadership and the time management course is on delegation.
So, Michelle, imagine this is your first day on the job.
I'm your manager and I walk up to you and say, Michelle, drop everything.
I need you to do this. Get it done by three.
How would you feel about my management style if that was your first day on the job?
Yeah, it was very direct.
(08:08):
Yeah, very dictatorial.
Yeah. But imagine that we've been working together for 10, 20 years and I walk up to you and I say, Michelle, drop everything.
This has to be done by three. And you go, no problem.
Yeah. What's the difference?
Because you've had a relationship for 10, 20 years.
10, 20 years of you getting to trust me, know me, and I've probably been very consultative and collaborative with you.
(08:32):
I've given you agency and I've empowered you and all the things that we need to build good relationships as leaders.
And so you now trust me. So when I do need to be direct, it's welcomed.
I can walk up and say, drop this, drop everything, do this, three o'clock and you go, yeah, no problem.
Because you would know that that's not my typical style.
Correct. But I've built up the amount of rapport and trust with you so that when I do do that, you don't question it.
(08:58):
You don't think it's me being dictatorial. It's me being absolutely in a critical situation and I rely on you.
And you build that by being softer, more collaborative.
Yes. Yeah. So asking questions. And it's similar to what we teach in their coaching and mentoring, isn't it?
That's right. And you can use it not just at work, which is generally where you have your best behavior as a human.
(09:23):
When you're with people that you work with, but when you come home and with your partner, with your family, with kids, the same.
It does help. And I've done this recently again. I was mentored.
Well, my mentor suggested a certain approach and it helped. Definitely. It was easy.
(09:47):
It was easy. And it was the the guard came down. So it was nice.
So one of the one of the ways that we can use a softer leadership is using the coaching and mentoring techniques.
So coaching and mentoring are two different things. Coaching is in my opinion, this is the way I teach it.
(10:10):
It's asking questions to get people to come up with answers on their own and feel agency.
Mentoring is when you're passing on your skills, knowledge and experience.
Yeah. And you should never pass on your skills, knowledge and experience if the person already has that themselves.
Yeah. So if I say to you, hey, Michelle, I need you to do this. How would you go about it?
And you say, well, I'll do this, this, this. And I go, OK, anything else you'd need to think about?
(10:36):
And you go, oh, yeah, I know I do this. Right. If I'd been thinking that I know how to do it
and I want to pass on that knowledge, but I just said, hey, Michelle, do it like this.
I'm not giving you agency. I'm not actually respecting your knowledge.
And so by asking you, how would you approach it? And you said, oh, I'll do this, this, this.
Then I can look at your knowledge and go, yeah, OK, you've got it. Off you go. Yeah.
(11:00):
Or if I notice that there's a hole in your knowledge. So if I said, how would you approach it?
And you go, well, maybe I'd try this. I said, is there anything else you'd think about?
And you go, oh, no, I don't think so. That's what I call the magic line.
We've reached the edge of your knowledge in that situation. That's where I'd step in and mentor.
So can I make a suggestion? Yeah. And you go, yeah.
(11:21):
I go, hey, would it be worth considering doing it like this?
And so what I'm doing is I'm asking your permission to give a suggestion.
I get your permission. So they're open to the suggestion.
That's it. You're open to the suggestion. And then rather than saying you should do it like this,
I need you to do it like this. Say, hey, would it be worth considering this?
Have you thought about this? And what we're doing, we're calling it softer leadership,
(11:44):
but it's really consultative leadership. It's respecting the fact that you hire good people
and hopefully they can come up with ideas on their own, which gives them agency.
Yeah. And you also learn as well because they may come up with something you hadn't thought of.
That's it. And you can do this with kids, can't you? Like you don't just go up and give orders.
You can say, hey, I need this done. How would you approach it?
(12:07):
Or where do you think we could start? Or something along those lines to give them a bit of agency.
It was funny yesterday we were...
The negotiation stuff. Yeah, we were teaching a group and it was funny,
the dads in the group were saying, ah, just tell them what to do and kick them up the bum if they don't do it.
It's like, how does that work for you?
(12:29):
Yeah. Getting any pushback there? And they were going, it's so frustrating.
They don't do what I'm asking them to do. I said, well, maybe you want to use some coaching
and mentoring techniques and start asking questions.
So for example, if your child doesn't clean their room, let's just say you've asked them and they haven't done it.
Quite often the reason why the child doesn't do it, especially when they're young, is it's just overwhelming.
(12:54):
If they're like a hurricane with their toys and they're just strowing from one end to the other,
that child looks at that mess and wouldn't have a clue in their beautiful little mind on how to or where to start.
And so if you were to say to the child, it gets really daunting, doesn't it? It's kind of overwhelming when it's that messy, isn't it?
(13:15):
And the child goes, yeah. You say, all right, if it's overwhelming, how about we work together to maybe make a plan?
See if we can make this a bit easier for you. They go, oh, okay.
And you say, okay, so if you look around the room, where's one place we could start?
And then they might go, the bed? Oh, that's a great place to start. So what would you do first?
(13:39):
See how there's some stuff on the bed that doesn't belong there? What would you do first?
And they go, oh, maybe take my clothes off the bed and make the bed. Oh, what a great idea.
How about you do that? Once you finish that, come and see me and then we'll make a plan for the next stage of the room cleaning.
And so instead of you saying, clean your bloody room, take that stuff off the bed, put your shoes away,
you're actually asking, firstly, showing them that you understand them by saying, hey, it's daunting, isn't it?
(14:03):
Sometimes it becomes a bit overwhelming. Now they feel as though you're on their side.
You're on their side. You see it from their perspective. And then when you say, hey, where would you start?
You're giving them a bit of agency. You're teaching them to think for themselves. Yeah.
And that's what we're talking about here with regards to softer leadership.
It's less dictatorial, less throwing around management authority and more asking questions, getting people to to come up with ideas.
(14:29):
Well, it's yeah, it's providing psychological safety as well.
And another concept that's very useful here is the topic of self-assessment rather than feedback.
Yeah, because you know when you've stuffed up, you do. And you know potentially where like more so than what the person assessing you does.
(14:52):
Yes, yes, exactly. And if you know what's expected of you, whether you're a kid or an employee or anything,
and you know that you haven't succeeded or you have succeeded, why would you need anyone else to give you feedback?
I find this really interesting. So one of the models that we teach in leadership, we don't teach giving feedback.
(15:14):
We give we teach people how to ask for self-assessment. And it's very, very simple.
It's just saying to the person, hey, Michelle, with regards to that task or that project, how are you going? How are you traveling?
So you're now assessing how you're going. And then the next question I encourage people to ask is what's working well?
(15:35):
What have you learned? And then the third question is would you change anything?
Yeah, that's right. And that gives them an opportunity to and even if they're worried.
So if they are worried about being honest about it, then there's not that psychological safety there.
However, if they do feel that they can be honest, they will often be more honest than about their own performance than you would be.
(15:59):
Yeah, exactly. And if they're if they're a bit deluded about how they're going, you could just say something like, hey, if our goal was to do this, are we there?
Yeah, because I do a lot of coaching, core coaching. I don't do it so much anymore.
But that you know, that question or that little recording, you recall, maybe monitored for coaching and training purposes.
(16:24):
Yeah. So I was the coach and I remember coaching one particular call and it was a very short call, a very abrupt call.
And the customer made some complaint. And so I was coaching this person who made the call.
I said, oh, so how did that call go? Oh, really good. And I said, OK, so what went well? Oh, we got him off the phone quick.
(16:46):
And I said, would you change anything? And they went, no, we got him off the phone quick.
And so they're a bit deluded. They think that that's good customer service.
So I just simply said, OK, so if our goal is to have happy customers and that customer made a complaint, did we achieve our goal?
So rather than me telling them that they didn't do a very good job, I said, if our goal is this and we didn't achieve it, did we did we achieve what we were aiming for?
(17:18):
And I had to basically say no. And I said, OK, so what would you do differently?
And now they're telling me how they should have behaved better in that phone call.
We had a similar approach teaching students to fly. It was very much so.
Initially, you gave them parameters, very strict parameters on learning to fly because it's like driving a car.
(17:40):
Initially, it seems there's so much to do and so much to consider. And whilst you're manipulating the steering wheel or the control column and power and all sorts of things, so hands and feet going everywhere and talking on the radio.
I've got it visual now, hands and feet going everywhere in the cockpit.
But as the student became more proficient and more comfortable, you then start bringing in the feedback, the self-feedback loop and asking them how they went.
(18:08):
Or if they're not confident, getting them to teach you how to fly and telling you what they're doing, almost like a self-pattern.
So you can see how their brain's thinking, what they're concentrating on and then asking them, was that, you know, what did you have trouble with or did you have trouble with anything?
(18:30):
And was there anything you'd change? How do you think you went on that flight? Would you feel confident taking your mum on the flight with you, your family, etc.?
And they would often come up with, oh, no, it's a little bit over here or under here. I wasn't maintaining because I needed to trim and I didn't.
And you're like, yep, you got it. Because flying and driving are dynamic skills, constantly changing.
(18:56):
And if it was just easy like a video game, then, you know, it wouldn't matter.
So they're self-assessing, self-correcting and also self-encouraging.
Yeah. So they're, by being aware of what they needed to do and being able to assess themselves, any situation, they could assess the situation knowing ahead of time what would be required.
(19:19):
Exactly. So this softer leadership isn't soft, it's collaborative. Yeah. And it's giving agency, like you said before.
Yeah. We're going to stop thinking that the best way to get stuff done is to tell people what to do. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good one. Yeah. Good to see you, Michelle. Bye, Guy. Bye.
Well, that was fun. That was fun.
(19:42):
You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our moms. Thanks, mom.
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