Have you ever wondered how to give nature a voice in urban development? The City of Mechelen in Belgium does exactly that while reimagining the connection between water, public spaces, animals, plants and people. In these two episodes of the Cities Reimagined Podcast we zoom in to reshape your understanding of how the interests of more-than-human inhabitants can be taken up in urban transformation projects. This is part one out of two exploring the work done by the WATSUPS project. Click here for part one where we look at the background of the City of Mechelen’s ambition to reconnect to the water.
In this episode:
· Why a river should be understood as an actor/stakeholder in urban transformation
· How empathy towards nature is essential for co-creating urban biodiversity
· How to organise a citizen panel that ensures that the voices of nature are heard in urban transformation projects
· How taking into account the voices of nature requires empathy, knowledge and “mildness”
· How Mechelen’s Citizen Assembly developed over 120 recommendations for enhancing nature along the river Dijle
More and more cities are reimagining their connection to their rivers, ponds and other water bodies. Whereas historically, cities have turned their back to the water as it was used primarily for economic purposes, in the 21st century, this perception has significantly shifted: Water in cities is a source of livability and sustainability.
The City of Mechelen has been taking a groundbreaking approach to reconnect its inhabitants (humans, animals and plants) to the water. As part of the “Water as the Source of Urban Public Spaces” (in short: WATSUPS - funded by the European Urban Initiative and running from 2024 to 2027) Mechelen is going to radically reshape the face of the city along the River Dijle while ensuring everyone has access to the water while making the more-than-human perspective a leading principle of the transformation. WATSUPS demonstrates how the spirit and principles of the New European Bauhaus can be translated into local, innovative actions.
Listen in to the two Cities Reimagined episodes where we explore how Mechelen is giving back the river Dijle to all inhabitants: human and more-than-human.
More information and materials mentioned in the podcast:
· European Urban Initiative: https://www.urban-initiative.eu
· Portico - The Gateway to Urban Learning: https://portico.urban-initiative.eu
· WATSUPS - Article: Beautiful, Sustainable, Together: Reimagining Mechelen’s Relationship with Water, Biodiversity in Urban Public Space while Tackling Gentrification
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We asked them to close their eyes and we did mentally the whole boat trip once again, but
(00:11):
this time through the eyes of a bat, of a fish, of a kind of plant living alongside
the river.
Welcome back to the Cities Rematch Podcast, the show where we talk about urban transitions
and how to change stuff in cities.
I'm your voice of choice Johannes Riegeler and this is More Than Human Co-Creation and
(00:34):
Participation in Mechelen.
This is part two of a conversation I had with the colleagues of the city of Mechelen in
the scope of the European Urban Initiative funded WhatsApps project that stands for Water
as the Source of Urban Public Spaces.
(00:55):
So WhatsApps is really redefining how the city of Mechelen is dealing with water and
is rebuilding the connections between the water, between the river, which runs through
this very historic and very beautiful picturesque old city center and how the public spaces
(01:17):
can be a connector between the dialer and the people.
The special thing about WhatsApps is that it uses very innovative methods, the More
Than Human Co-Creation method, let's say, to build empathy and to connect not only the
people with the water and the people to the water, but also to take into account the interests
(01:41):
and needs of the more than human inhabitants, that is the animals and the plants living
in the dialer.
Over the next years, the project will really redefine Mechelen's connection to the water
along the river.
There will be several sites which have different uses in 2027, some for youngsters, some for
(02:03):
biodiversity, some for, yeah, to increase the livability of the people living in the
city.
And today we talk to Mark van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen.
He is, I would say, the mastermind behind this More Than Human approach, More Than Human
Co-Creation.
We talk about the ambitions and how it went with the citizen assembly, they're running
(02:27):
a citizen assembly in Mechelen to bring in the interests not only of the people, but
also on the animals and plants.
And Mark will tell us all about that in today's episode.
If you haven't done so, I really invite you to check out the first part of this series
with the WhatsApps project.
So that is an interview or a conversation I had with Nicole Lacoma where we talk about
(02:51):
the origins of the project, why it is relevant that Mechelen is reconnecting to the water,
and it really gives a good basis of knowledge for the discussion also today.
So if you want to check it out before you dive into this conversation, the link is down
in the show notes.
Feel free to listen to it before you dive into this one.
(03:12):
But enough for the monologue.
Here is my conversation with Mark van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen, which we recorded
in June 2024.
Hi, Mark.
Hi, you're on us.
How are you doing?
I'm fine.
Tell us a little bit about your role in the city of Mechelen and about your work.
Yeah, I have two different jobs in the city, which are very nicely combined.
(03:40):
The one is a European project called Speak Up, where we enhance the capacity of the city
in how the city is dealing with the citizens, with the stakeholders and vice versa, how
participation can be put on, let's say, next level.
(04:00):
And the other job is the European Urban Initiatives Project, WhatsApps, what concerns the River
Dijla, an historical river running through the middle of our city.
And I do the design of the participation in there.
And I'm very happy that I have the chance to guide your project or to be with you over
(04:23):
the next three and a half years.
That is already a very nice experience.
And it's amazing to be here in Mechelen.
What makes you enthusiastic about changing the relationship between people and the River
Dijla?
To me, the River Dijla is very inspirational because I see, I notice when you dive in,
(04:50):
literally, people develop a big effect towards water quality and nature and just experiencing
the public space, experiencing each other.
But by history, it felt a little bit like we turned our back to the river.
(05:10):
And by putting the river back in front of the attention, we really noticed that there's
a huge potential in bringing people together, bringing people in contact to nature and give
another position to the river as a very important actor in our city.
(05:32):
Right.
The river runs through the old part of the city, right?
It's very, very scenic.
And when you walk the streets or when you walk the Dijla path, that is a boardwalk through
the river, right?
That was when did you implement that?
2008, I believe.
Yeah.
It completely changes the perspective of how you perceive the river or the water in the
(05:58):
city.
And we see that there is a lot going on and a lot of changing, also changing processes.
Tell us a little bit how you envision bringing back nature into the city.
Yeah.
To start with, when we take decisions about our surroundings, about the environment, we
(06:21):
often take a decision that is more thought about exploitation, about rational measurement
to take care of, for example, human needs around the case of a river, around the banks,
around the locks and stuff like that.
(06:45):
But sometimes we just forget the perspective of nature that is also too an inhabitant of
these banks and of this river.
So when we did set up the citizen assembly to gather information and ideas from our citizens
to bring out the basic principles to get along with this project, we thought of what about
(07:12):
bringing the perspective of nature inside and not say let's make an assembly of citizens,
but make an assembly of inhabitants.
And we did a kind of exercise where we brought in the voice of nature.
And in the beginning, I was a little bit cautious about how the people would accept the idea.
(07:38):
But then we really worked it out and we did a kind of captasio, a kind of design of how
to bring in this voice of nature.
And then it felt that people were really enthusiastic to represent this voice of nature.
(08:00):
You told me yesterday about the co-creation process and about the citizen assembly, how
you got them together.
Can you tell us more?
How was that process?
How did you get people together and how did they contribute and did they stay motivated
throughout the process?
Yeah.
So in fact, we did first do a lottery on the 88,000 inhabitants, human inhabitants in Michelin.
(08:27):
And then we did send out 5,000 random letters to people to invite them.
On the responses we got, we did the kind of stratification.
So we have a good representation of gender, of a mixture of diversity, of age, people
living in the center, people living abroad, the city on the same surface, of course, of
(08:52):
the city.
And then at the end, with the stratification, we did gather a group of 33 people at the
city and participating, but they all remained within the citizen assembly.
And then we did invite them on a boat trip to experience the river.
(09:19):
Like you said, when you walk along the river, on the river, you have another lecture of
what the river means in the city.
So we explained the project to the people, but we also let them experience the river
on the boat trip.
And then we talked about the project, what we are planning to do and so on.
(09:39):
And then the first session, we did invite some experts talking about urbanism, talking
about planning, talking about water quality, talking about the perspective of plants and
nature within urban planning and what it means to take measures and what the impact can mean
(10:02):
on the river and on the inhabitants of the river.
And then the third session, we asked the people to give recommendations on different sides
of the project, on the case, on thematic projects like swimming in open water, on water quality,
on biodiversity and so on.
(10:25):
And they gave a lot of recommendations because they were really good informed by the experts.
And some of them, after the hours, went to look up things themselves and they discussed
with family and friends about this project.
There was a lot of fuss going on and they also inspired each other because the discussions
never ended.
(10:45):
It was really, there was a big buzz going on at the moment.
And then we asked them to come together once more.
And then we did the kind of visualization exercise where we taught a story back on the
boat.
We asked them to close their eyes and we did mentally the whole boat trip once again, but
(11:10):
this time through the eyes of a bat, of a fish, of a kind of plant living alongside
the river.
And we did select like personas with their own needs and with their own characteristics
(11:33):
and how they would fit in a kind of environment.
And then after that, we, after that story where we went along the river and here the
fish is experiencing this and that, and then there's noise and the bat got some problems
with the light in the evening and so on.
(11:53):
So we situated, but we gave them all names and then they received one by one a card with
a persona and with characteristics on it.
How did it go?
Because you said before you were concerned.
I was concerned.
I was concerned because I must say our citizens mostly have this no bullshit mentality and
(12:18):
I thought like, Ooh, this is a risky, risky one.
But at the end, I guess when I, when I look back to the procedure, the way that we invited
them to go on the boat, the way that we invited the experts to talk about all these subjects
and then this visualization exercise and then before they did the recommendations by their
(12:40):
own experience.
So they, they already felt familiar with the process of, of, of bringing out ideas and
formulate them.
And then we did this visualization exercise and they had to represent a kind of animal
back on, on, on the sites.
And then 122 recommendations came out from the voice of nature.
(13:05):
And that was amazing.
I mean, to me that really catched me.
And I saw in the whole process that by, by experiencing all these examples and by the
sensorial experience on that boat trip and by the, what, what the experts told that the
(13:28):
people, yeah, developed a kind of mildness.
And the way they looked at nature in the city was, yeah, I will not say completely changed,
but they, they, they developed an empathy, which is far beyond functional design as a
(13:51):
human.
It's, it was not this, this typical exploitation model.
Oh, we have a surface, we need concrete.
We, we, we then we can do this and that.
No, there was at once a huge context that, that opened itself and that brought in another
discourse.
(14:12):
So this is, this is so interesting because also this approach of bringing in the non-human
perspectives of plants and animals to a co-creation process, I don't think it has been tested
often and also not, especially not that it was, or that it is driven by local public
(14:32):
administration, which makes it very, very special.
So I totally see that you might have been worried if it would work out, but I think
it is so interesting also to see, and there's so much to learn from, from this perspective
or from this process you, you just described that you have to boat trip with that, to get
people on board.
(14:53):
What are we talking about actually?
And why is that relevant?
And then have some experts talking with the citizen panel to see, bringing it into a larger
perspectives and then together develop these, these recommendations and 122 recommendations
are quite, quite a lot.
(15:13):
I also know you, you developed some basic principles.
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, this after this exercise with these recommendations, and there was a lot of these
recommendations, we had to make a kind of cluster exercise and that was the last day
(15:36):
in the deliberation process.
And okay, so if, if you, in general, the subjects, the subjects of the, the citizen assembly
and the main question was how can we take care of the river as a, as a, as a place where
(15:59):
everybody inclusive animals and plants can, can enjoy being there, enjoy just feeling
welcome like, and how can we develop a kind of respect and deep respect for each other?
(16:19):
And then, okay, it's, it's about biodiversity.
It's about swimming in open water.
When you swim in open water, you also to feel vulnerable, vulnerable as a, as a, as an organism
about water quality, of course, and about the possibility to create places to, to meet
(16:40):
each other.
So, social cohesion between humans, but also to between humans and nature, just to live
together.
And then at the end, how can we attract more citizens and inhabitants to, to enjoy this
project together?
(17:01):
So the, the classification of the clusters we had to meet was respect, enjoy staying
and then accessibility, of course, and then communication, but also to innovate how to
sensibilize the citizens for future support on how we can achieve the objective to make
(17:27):
this river more livable and, and beautiful as a place to meet each other, to do some
activities, but also to, to, to, to enjoy this, this beautiful place in our city.
And concerning respect, of course, it was about waste and water quality.
(17:52):
And that's, that's evident and, and, and, but they asked us also to, to use this voice
of nature in the future participation project.
So they, they really supported the methodology to, to, to use it in the future because it
was also to in a study that was made after the citizen assembly, the people really enjoyed
(18:18):
the, the, the way they, they did form an opinion because they, they felt a transformation in
how their opinion was made.
So that's something we would like to, to, to bring in the future.
And then they asked, for example, also to, to give 30% of our banks back to nature, which
(18:42):
is the river banks.
And that's, we will now have to see where and how and so on.
But then there was the other classification that was like how we make it possible that
the inhabitants, humans, plants, animals, enjoy staying there.
(19:04):
That was of course also to about water quality, about improve the habitat of plants and animals.
On planting new plants in a smart way, then how they can filter the water quality.
They can bring in oxygen that we can create nests for bats or for birds or stuff like
(19:28):
that.
And then the other basic principle is to create a very attractive, diverse and sustained environment
around, around the river.
And then concerning accessibility, it was on how to make the banks running up slowly
(19:49):
that they are not aggressive vertical mineralized, but that they are like made of soil, that
there are plants growing and that you have an attractive green zone along the river and
that diverse groups can integrally and safely enjoy being there.
(20:14):
And that there are enough infrastructure like something to protect people from the sun,
from the rain, that there are toilets, public toilets along the river.
And also to that there are places where people can rest, but also nature can rest.
(20:36):
How does your work or how does the project connect or contribute to, let's say, tackling
global urban challenges and how does it connect to European ambitions related to sustainable
urbanization?
No, in fact, there's the European framework that we have to take care of our rivers in
(21:02):
the year 2727.
It will be launched and we already prepare our population to develop another attitude
towards the river.
In the citizen assembly, there was also to ask to formulate a principle concerning sensibilization.
(21:29):
So inclusive communication to diverse target groups was really important, but also to that
they asked us to develop a kind of knowledge, a kind of empathy towards biodiversity.
That the river is seen not only as a transport axe, but also as an axe where inhabitants
(21:58):
are living, plants, animals and the local ecological context of the river.
So I guess a part of the the constructal sides of this project, we have also to some mental
sides and that is on changing the attitude of our inhabitants towards the river, that
(22:22):
they take care of the river, that it's normal that we see the river as a kind of persona.
And that's also to wonder of the ambitions where we would like to land is that in the
future if we would take decisions about the river, that we develop in our own city, a
(22:44):
kind of framework on how decisions are made, that we take care of this or give voice to
this nature and use it as a kind of checklist.
That's very beautiful because you also describe, I really like how you describe this process
of let's call it getting nature back to the river and getting it biodiversity into the
(23:09):
city as something not only infrastructural, but you describe it as the mental side by
developing empathy and already doing that with the co-creation process.
I think this is really inspiring also for many other cities, hopefully, that once you
dare to take the step, take the lead and don't feel as you described it before, feel a bit
(23:35):
worried if that will work, if you have the process set out in a way so that people can
relate to it and build this empathy, then it is a wonderful tool and a wonderful way
to reconnect between the human and the non-human.
For example, today we will do our first participation moment within an organization or let's say
(24:06):
an event for the youth.
It's on an event side where you have like a skate park, climbing zone, circus activities
are there, you have breakdance and so on.
So they have a huge event planned for today, so we're going to install their manned unit
(24:28):
where we inform the young people about the project and about particularly what we plan
to do alongside this youth park where the river is passing to.
For example, we set up some activities where they can enjoy the river by kayaking, they
(24:50):
can go and take a look, but when they get a kayak they also do get a kind of arm to
pick up dirt in the city and a bag to bring back and they will give testimonies about
what they experienced.
(25:10):
They can put tags on the street where they find dirt and they can afterwards come to
us and talk about it and then we will ask some questions about what they experienced
by it and how they see the future for the river and how they would like to pass their
time alongside the banks, but also how they feel the nearby nature and how their actions
(25:40):
interfere with this nature.
We would like just to test with them what they experience.
Very curious, I'm happy to be part of that also and I'm very curious how it goes later
today.
Marc, what's next for WhatsApp and for the project?
I think you're entering the design phase very soon, so what is to be expected in the next
(26:03):
year?
Yeah, to be expected is that now we will install some moments where there's some mass of people
coming by, we will install some manned units where we inform people and ask them to give
opinions on for example these basic principles from the citizen assembly and other questions
(26:30):
to know their findings, to know the needs also to what they would like to have alongside
the river, but also to already to sensibilize them concerning the subjects of nature and
water quality.
But apart of that we will install a totem on the site where we inform all passengers
(26:55):
that are passing by and on this totem we installed a citizen dialogue kit and that's an unmanned
kit where you can put in questions and the idea is that we gather a lot of information
from all kinds of passengers passing by and then afterwards we will do more specific co-creation
(27:21):
tracks once the designers are at work and then together with our local high school Thomas
Moor we will use visualizations techniques like artificial intelligence and AR, VR to
put the different needs and perspective from different stakeholders and target groups on
(27:49):
already basic plans we have on the different sites and the different sites are a swimming
zone on how to swim in open water, a residential zone where we will green a residential street
that is connected to the river and bring in the green from the river towards the city,
(28:09):
another zone is a lowered K at the riverbank where we would like to create a place for
families with little children and another site is a place for the youth where it's just
a chilling place in the green at the water side to do some kayaking and just to enjoy
(28:35):
a quiet nice place at the river.
And there's still another project but it's more for the future where we would like to
develop a lot of possibilities for people to meet each other and all kinds of people
but that's a project that we will realize after the period 27 but we will already start
(29:00):
up the co-creation because now there's so much fuss going on and we would like to take
that with us.
Very good, I'm very curious how things will develop and we will come back also on the
podcast for the next update in a year.
Mark, thank you so much, all the best for the event today.
(29:21):
Yeah, you too.
That's it for today, that was my conversation with Mark van der Weyken from the city of
Mechelen.
If you haven't done so, I really invite you to check out the first part on the WhatsApp
project, the interview with Nicole Lacoma.
You find the link down below in the show notes.
(29:42):
If you want to learn more about WhatsApp and all other EUI funded projects, go to Portico.
That is the gateway to urban learning.
You find the link also below.
There are more publications on WhatsApp on there.
Also you find links to WhatsApp on the show notes below and we will come back latest in
a year to see the progress of the WhatsApp project.
(30:04):
So this is really cool that we can kind of follow the project on cities of imagination
and see how it evolves and learn as we go.
That's all for today, so thank you for tuning in and I hope to catch you soon.
We asked them to close their eyes and we did mentally the whole boat trip once again, but
(00:11):
this time through the eyes of a bat, of a fish, of a kind of plant living alongside
the river.
Welcome back to the Cities Rematch Podcast, the show where we talk about urban transitions
and how to change stuff in cities.
I'm your voice of choice Johannes Riegeler and this is More Than Human Co-Creation and
(00:34):
Participation in Mechelen.
This is part two of a conversation I had with the colleagues of the city of Mechelen in
the scope of the European Urban Initiative funded WhatsApps project that stands for Water
as the Source of Urban Public Spaces.
(00:55):
So WhatsApps is really redefining how the city of Mechelen is dealing with water and
is rebuilding the connections between the water, between the river, which runs through
this very historic and very beautiful picturesque old city center and how the public spaces
(01:17):
can be a connector between the dialer and the people.
The special thing about WhatsApps is that it uses very innovative methods, the More
Than Human Co-Creation method, let's say, to build empathy and to connect not only the
people with the water and the people to the water, but also to take into account the interests
(01:41):
and needs of the more than human inhabitants, that is the animals and the plants living
in the dialer.
Over the next years, the project will really redefine Mechelen's connection to the water
along the river.
There will be several sites which have different uses in 2027, some for youngsters, some for
(02:03):
biodiversity, some for, yeah, to increase the livability of the people living in the
city.
And today we talk to Mark van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen.
He is, I would say, the mastermind behind this More Than Human approach, More Than Human
Co-Creation.
We talk about the ambitions and how it went with the citizen assembly, they're running
(02:27):
a citizen assembly in Mechelen to bring in the interests not only of the people, but
also on the animals and plants.
And Mark will tell us all about that in today's episode.
If you haven't done so, I really invite you to check out the first part of this series
with the WhatsApps project.
So that is an interview or a conversation I had with Nicole Lacoma where we talk about
(02:51):
the origins of the project, why it is relevant that Mechelen is reconnecting to the water,
and it really gives a good basis of knowledge for the discussion also today.
So if you want to check it out before you dive into this conversation, the link is down
in the show notes.
Feel free to listen to it before you dive into this one.
(03:12):
But enough for the monologue.
Here is my conversation with Mark van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen, which we recorded
in June 2024.
Hi, Mark.
Hi, you're on us.
How are you doing?
I'm fine.
Tell us a little bit about your role in the city of Mechelen and about your work.
Yeah, I have two different jobs in the city, which are very nicely combined.
(03:40):
The one is a European project called Speak Up, where we enhance the capacity of the city
in how the city is dealing with the citizens, with the stakeholders and vice versa, how
participation can be put on, let's say, next level.
(04:00):
And the other job is the European Urban Initiatives Project, WhatsApps, what concerns the River
Dijla, an historical river running through the middle of our city.
And I do the design of the participation in there.
And I'm very happy that I have the chance to guide your project or to be with you over
(04:23):
the next three and a half years.
That is already a very nice experience.
And it's amazing to be here in Mechelen.
What makes you enthusiastic about changing the relationship between people and the River
Dijla?
To me, the River Dijla is very inspirational because I see, I notice when you dive in,
(04:50):
literally, people develop a big effect towards water quality and nature and just experiencing
the public space, experiencing each other.
But by history, it felt a little bit like we turned our back to the river.
(05:10):
And by putting the river back in front of the attention, we really noticed that there's
a huge potential in bringing people together, bringing people in contact to nature and give
another position to the river as a very important actor in our city.
(05:32):
Right.
The river runs through the old part of the city, right?
It's very, very scenic.
And when you walk the streets or when you walk the Dijla path, that is a boardwalk through
the river, right?
That was when did you implement that?
2008, I believe.
Yeah.
It completely changes the perspective of how you perceive the river or the water in the
(05:58):
city.
And we see that there is a lot going on and a lot of changing, also changing processes.
Tell us a little bit how you envision bringing back nature into the city.
Yeah.
To start with, when we take decisions about our surroundings, about the environment, we
(06:21):
often take a decision that is more thought about exploitation, about rational measurement
to take care of, for example, human needs around the case of a river, around the banks,
around the locks and stuff like that.
(06:45):
But sometimes we just forget the perspective of nature that is also too an inhabitant of
these banks and of this river.
So when we did set up the citizen assembly to gather information and ideas from our citizens
to bring out the basic principles to get along with this project, we thought of what about
(07:12):
bringing the perspective of nature inside and not say let's make an assembly of citizens,
but make an assembly of inhabitants.
And we did a kind of exercise where we brought in the voice of nature.
And in the beginning, I was a little bit cautious about how the people would accept the idea.
(07:38):
But then we really worked it out and we did a kind of captasio, a kind of design of how
to bring in this voice of nature.
And then it felt that people were really enthusiastic to represent this voice of nature.
(08:00):
You told me yesterday about the co-creation process and about the citizen assembly, how
you got them together.
Can you tell us more?
How was that process?
How did you get people together and how did they contribute and did they stay motivated
throughout the process?
Yeah.
So in fact, we did first do a lottery on the 88,000 inhabitants, human inhabitants in Michelin.
(08:27):
And then we did send out 5,000 random letters to people to invite them.
On the responses we got, we did the kind of stratification.
So we have a good representation of gender, of a mixture of diversity, of age, people
living in the center, people living abroad, the city on the same surface, of course, of
(08:52):
the city.
And then at the end, with the stratification, we did gather a group of 33 people at the
city and participating, but they all remained within the citizen assembly.
And then we did invite them on a boat trip to experience the river.
(09:19):
Like you said, when you walk along the river, on the river, you have another lecture of
what the river means in the city.
So we explained the project to the people, but we also let them experience the river
on the boat trip.
And then we talked about the project, what we are planning to do and so on.
(09:39):
And then the first session, we did invite some experts talking about urbanism, talking
about planning, talking about water quality, talking about the perspective of plants and
nature within urban planning and what it means to take measures and what the impact can mean
(10:02):
on the river and on the inhabitants of the river.
And then the third session, we asked the people to give recommendations on different sides
of the project, on the case, on thematic projects like swimming in open water, on water quality,
on biodiversity and so on.
(10:25):
And they gave a lot of recommendations because they were really good informed by the experts.
And some of them, after the hours, went to look up things themselves and they discussed
with family and friends about this project.
There was a lot of fuss going on and they also inspired each other because the discussions
never ended.
(10:45):
It was really, there was a big buzz going on at the moment.
And then we asked them to come together once more.
And then we did the kind of visualization exercise where we taught a story back on the
boat.
We asked them to close their eyes and we did mentally the whole boat trip once again, but
(11:10):
this time through the eyes of a bat, of a fish, of a kind of plant living alongside
the river.
And we did select like personas with their own needs and with their own characteristics
(11:33):
and how they would fit in a kind of environment.
And then after that, we, after that story where we went along the river and here the
fish is experiencing this and that, and then there's noise and the bat got some problems
with the light in the evening and so on.
(11:53):
So we situated, but we gave them all names and then they received one by one a card with
a persona and with characteristics on it.
How did it go?
Because you said before you were concerned.
I was concerned.
I was concerned because I must say our citizens mostly have this no bullshit mentality and
(12:18):
I thought like, Ooh, this is a risky, risky one.
But at the end, I guess when I, when I look back to the procedure, the way that we invited
them to go on the boat, the way that we invited the experts to talk about all these subjects
and then this visualization exercise and then before they did the recommendations by their
(12:40):
own experience.
So they, they already felt familiar with the process of, of, of bringing out ideas and
formulate them.
And then we did this visualization exercise and they had to represent a kind of animal
back on, on, on the sites.
And then 122 recommendations came out from the voice of nature.
(13:05):
And that was amazing.
I mean, to me that really catched me.
And I saw in the whole process that by, by experiencing all these examples and by the
sensorial experience on that boat trip and by the, what, what the experts told that the
(13:28):
people, yeah, developed a kind of mildness.
And the way they looked at nature in the city was, yeah, I will not say completely changed,
but they, they, they developed an empathy, which is far beyond functional design as a
(13:51):
human.
It's, it was not this, this typical exploitation model.
Oh, we have a surface, we need concrete.
We, we, we then we can do this and that.
No, there was at once a huge context that, that opened itself and that brought in another
discourse.
(14:12):
So this is, this is so interesting because also this approach of bringing in the non-human
perspectives of plants and animals to a co-creation process, I don't think it has been tested
often and also not, especially not that it was, or that it is driven by local public
(14:32):
administration, which makes it very, very special.
So I totally see that you might have been worried if it would work out, but I think
it is so interesting also to see, and there's so much to learn from, from this perspective
or from this process you, you just described that you have to boat trip with that, to get
people on board.
(14:53):
What are we talking about actually?
And why is that relevant?
And then have some experts talking with the citizen panel to see, bringing it into a larger
perspectives and then together develop these, these recommendations and 122 recommendations
are quite, quite a lot.
(15:13):
I also know you, you developed some basic principles.
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, this after this exercise with these recommendations, and there was a lot of these
recommendations, we had to make a kind of cluster exercise and that was the last day
(15:36):
in the deliberation process.
And okay, so if, if you, in general, the subjects, the subjects of the, the citizen assembly
and the main question was how can we take care of the river as a, as a, as a place where
(15:59):
everybody inclusive animals and plants can, can enjoy being there, enjoy just feeling
welcome like, and how can we develop a kind of respect and deep respect for each other?
(16:19):
And then, okay, it's, it's about biodiversity.
It's about swimming in open water.
When you swim in open water, you also to feel vulnerable, vulnerable as a, as a, as an organism
about water quality, of course, and about the possibility to create places to, to meet
(16:40):
each other.
So, social cohesion between humans, but also to between humans and nature, just to live
together.
And then at the end, how can we attract more citizens and inhabitants to, to enjoy this
project together?
(17:01):
So the, the classification of the clusters we had to meet was respect, enjoy staying
and then accessibility, of course, and then communication, but also to innovate how to
sensibilize the citizens for future support on how we can achieve the objective to make
(17:27):
this river more livable and, and beautiful as a place to meet each other, to do some
activities, but also to, to, to, to enjoy this, this beautiful place in our city.
And concerning respect, of course, it was about waste and water quality.
(17:52):
And that's, that's evident and, and, and, but they asked us also to, to use this voice
of nature in the future participation project.
So they, they really supported the methodology to, to, to use it in the future because it
was also to in a study that was made after the citizen assembly, the people really enjoyed
(18:18):
the, the, the way they, they did form an opinion because they, they felt a transformation in
how their opinion was made.
So that's something we would like to, to, to bring in the future.
And then they asked, for example, also to, to give 30% of our banks back to nature, which
(18:42):
is the river banks.
And that's, we will now have to see where and how and so on.
But then there was the other classification that was like how we make it possible that
the inhabitants, humans, plants, animals, enjoy staying there.
(19:04):
That was of course also to about water quality, about improve the habitat of plants and animals.
On planting new plants in a smart way, then how they can filter the water quality.
They can bring in oxygen that we can create nests for bats or for birds or stuff like
(19:28):
that.
And then the other basic principle is to create a very attractive, diverse and sustained environment
around, around the river.
And then concerning accessibility, it was on how to make the banks running up slowly
(19:49):
that they are not aggressive vertical mineralized, but that they are like made of soil, that
there are plants growing and that you have an attractive green zone along the river and
that diverse groups can integrally and safely enjoy being there.
(20:14):
And that there are enough infrastructure like something to protect people from the sun,
from the rain, that there are toilets, public toilets along the river.
And also to that there are places where people can rest, but also nature can rest.
(20:36):
How does your work or how does the project connect or contribute to, let's say, tackling
global urban challenges and how does it connect to European ambitions related to sustainable
urbanization?
No, in fact, there's the European framework that we have to take care of our rivers in
(21:02):
the year 2727.
It will be launched and we already prepare our population to develop another attitude
towards the river.
In the citizen assembly, there was also to ask to formulate a principle concerning sensibilization.
(21:29):
So inclusive communication to diverse target groups was really important, but also to that
they asked us to develop a kind of knowledge, a kind of empathy towards biodiversity.
That the river is seen not only as a transport axe, but also as an axe where inhabitants
(21:58):
are living, plants, animals and the local ecological context of the river.
So I guess a part of the the constructal sides of this project, we have also to some mental
sides and that is on changing the attitude of our inhabitants towards the river, that
(22:22):
they take care of the river, that it's normal that we see the river as a kind of persona.
And that's also to wonder of the ambitions where we would like to land is that in the
future if we would take decisions about the river, that we develop in our own city, a
(22:44):
kind of framework on how decisions are made, that we take care of this or give voice to
this nature and use it as a kind of checklist.
That's very beautiful because you also describe, I really like how you describe this process
of let's call it getting nature back to the river and getting it biodiversity into the
(23:09):
city as something not only infrastructural, but you describe it as the mental side by
developing empathy and already doing that with the co-creation process.
I think this is really inspiring also for many other cities, hopefully, that once you
dare to take the step, take the lead and don't feel as you described it before, feel a bit
(23:35):
worried if that will work, if you have the process set out in a way so that people can
relate to it and build this empathy, then it is a wonderful tool and a wonderful way
to reconnect between the human and the non-human.
For example, today we will do our first participation moment within an organization or let's say
(24:06):
an event for the youth.
It's on an event side where you have like a skate park, climbing zone, circus activities
are there, you have breakdance and so on.
So they have a huge event planned for today, so we're going to install their manned unit
(24:28):
where we inform the young people about the project and about particularly what we plan
to do alongside this youth park where the river is passing to.
For example, we set up some activities where they can enjoy the river by kayaking, they
(24:50):
can go and take a look, but when they get a kayak they also do get a kind of arm to
pick up dirt in the city and a bag to bring back and they will give testimonies about
what they experienced.
(25:10):
They can put tags on the street where they find dirt and they can afterwards come to
us and talk about it and then we will ask some questions about what they experienced
by it and how they see the future for the river and how they would like to pass their
time alongside the banks, but also how they feel the nearby nature and how their actions
(25:40):
interfere with this nature.
We would like just to test with them what they experience.
Very curious, I'm happy to be part of that also and I'm very curious how it goes later
today.
Marc, what's next for WhatsApp and for the project?
I think you're entering the design phase very soon, so what is to be expected in the next
(26:03):
year?
Yeah, to be expected is that now we will install some moments where there's some mass of people
coming by, we will install some manned units where we inform people and ask them to give
opinions on for example these basic principles from the citizen assembly and other questions
(26:30):
to know their findings, to know the needs also to what they would like to have alongside
the river, but also to already to sensibilize them concerning the subjects of nature and
water quality.
But apart of that we will install a totem on the site where we inform all passengers
(26:55):
that are passing by and on this totem we installed a citizen dialogue kit and that's an unmanned
kit where you can put in questions and the idea is that we gather a lot of information
from all kinds of passengers passing by and then afterwards we will do more specific co-creation
(27:21):
tracks once the designers are at work and then together with our local high school Thomas
Moor we will use visualizations techniques like artificial intelligence and AR, VR to
put the different needs and perspective from different stakeholders and target groups on
(27:49):
already basic plans we have on the different sites and the different sites are a swimming
zone on how to swim in open water, a residential zone where we will green a residential street
that is connected to the river and bring in the green from the river towards the city,
(28:09):
another zone is a lowered K at the riverbank where we would like to create a place for
families with little children and another site is a place for the youth where it's just
a chilling place in the green at the water side to do some kayaking and just to enjoy
(28:35):
a quiet nice place at the river.
And there's still another project but it's more for the future where we would like to
develop a lot of possibilities for people to meet each other and all kinds of people
but that's a project that we will realize after the period 27 but we will already start
(29:00):
up the co-creation because now there's so much fuss going on and we would like to take
that with us.
Very good, I'm very curious how things will develop and we will come back also on the
podcast for the next update in a year.
Mark, thank you so much, all the best for the event today.
(29:21):
Yeah, you too.
That's it for today, that was my conversation with Mark van der Weyken from the city of
Mechelen.
If you haven't done so, I really invite you to check out the first part on the WhatsApp
project, the interview with Nicole Lacoma.
You find the link down below in the show notes.
(29:42):
If you want to learn more about WhatsApp and all other EUI funded projects, go to Portico.
That is the gateway to urban learning.
You find the link also below.
There are more publications on WhatsApp on there.
Also you find links to WhatsApp on the show notes below and we will come back latest in
a year to see the progress of the WhatsApp project.
(30:04):
So this is really cool that we can kind of follow the project on cities of imagination
and see how it evolves and learn as we go.
That's all for today, so thank you for tuning in and I hope to catch you soon.
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