Episode Transcript
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Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi -weekly podcastthat showcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
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workplace.
Today, I'm having a conversation with JohnTanzala.
John is the president and CEO.
of the International LGBTQ plus travelassociation, which is the global leader in
advancing LGBTQ plus travel and is theonly LGD, LG hold on so many LGBTQ plus,
(00:45):
at least I'm not having to say a I a inthe middle of it too.
Okay.
Today I'm having a conversation with JohnTanzella.
John is the president and CEO of theInternational LGBTQ Plus Travel
Association, which is the global leader inadvancing LGBTQ plus travel and is the
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only LGBTQ plus affiliate member of theWorld Tourism Organization.
IGTLA's network consists of over 12 ,000tourism business professionals across 80
countries.
John is a 25 year tourism industry veteranhaving worked with both Delta Airlines and
destination DC.
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He currently serves on the board ofdirectors for both the Stonewall National
Museum and Archives and Tourism DiversityMatters.
John is a University of Georgia alum andresides in beautiful Fort Lauderdale,
Florida.
John, welcome to the show and thanks forjoining me today.
Hi David, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure and an honor toparticipate and I love the fact that this
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podcast exists.
So I think what you're doing is a greatthing.
So thank you for including me.
Yeah, thanks John.
Well, let's let's jump in.
So why don't you tell us a little bitabout how you identify and tell us when
and where did you come out?
I know coming out in the workplace isn'tusually a one and done situation.
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There's usually a lot of conversations anda lot of experiences throughout our
careers, but.
Maybe tell us a little bit about one ofthe first times that you came out, where
were you working?
What was the situation and tell us alittle bit about that experience.
Well, thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And as far as looking at when I came out,I'm quite a bit...
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let me start that one over, sorry.
Ready?
Thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And to answer your question of when I cameout, I would have probably have been in my
late 20s, working in corporate America,Delta's corporate offices headquarters.
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Back then in the early 90s, mid 90s, youknow, it was a different world for...
LGBTQ professionals, especially in theSouth back then.
Certainly things have changed considerablyin Atlanta and at Delta Airlines and the
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South.
But back then it was much morechallenging.
to be your authentic self and to be out atthe workplace, something you really kept
under the wraps unless you were in more ofan environment such as maybe a flight
attendant has a little more flexibility tocome out versus being a corporate office
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where you're with a much more conservativeworkplace back then.
Yeah.
And, and John, I think I maybe hadmentioned this to you when we, when we
first had met, I came out in Atlanta inthe early nineties as well.
And I know there's this, if you're insidethe perimeter, you're safe.
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And, I know Delta airlines corporateheadquarters is not inside the perimeter.
It's down at Hartsfield internationalairport.
but there's this perception of the travelindustry.
I think a couple of things that are reallyinteresting.
There's this perception of the travelindustry.
employs a lot of LGBTQ plus people, evenback then, I think there was still that.
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And you just brought up, I think, whatfolks may even think of as a stereotype
as, flight attendants might be, they mightidentify as part of the LGBTQ community.
Why do you think, as you just said, maybethere was a little more freedom if you
were a flight attendant than if you wereat headquarters?
It's so interesting because I know there'sthousands and thousands of flight
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attendants.
So it's, it's a really large populationwithin an airline.
What, what, what do you think that was allabout?
Why was it sort of more okay to be aflight attendant and be out versus working
in corporate headquarters?
What do you think was driving that?
I think it was just the freedom as aflight attendant.
You're not going into an office everymorning at eight o 'clock.
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You're traveling the world with five orsix other individuals and you're not
really under the microscope the way youare in a corporate office environment
working in cubicles and answering tosomeone every day all day that you're
with.
So it's just that freedom.
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Hmm.
And again, this was the 90s, so it's verydifferent at Delta now and what they do in
our space and in the South, certainlyAtlanta.
I mean, it may be still somewhatchallenging in small towns and rural
South, if you look at Alabama,Mississippi, places like that, but in
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South Georgia, but certainly not Atlantathough.
Definitely not inside the perimeter.
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I, I've, I've not been back asoften, but I do certainly have friends
that still live in Atlanta and certainlyknow the advances that Delta airlines in
particular, has made.
What do you think were, if you think backto those days in the nineties and you're
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at the corporate offices and you're sortof coming into yourself, and early in your
career with your own authenticity and whoyou are.
What were some of the things that maybe ifyou can recall sort of entered into your
mind sort of why, why wouldn't you share?
Was there, what were, what were the fearsor what were the reservations that kept
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you to whatever degree you were not beingauthentic to certain groups or certain
people?
What were some of the reasons why that washappening back then?
Do you think?
I think because in that corporate southernenvironment, it was a very conservative
macho type of environment.
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There wasn't even women in leadershippositions back then, right?
Or it was scarce, not like today.
So if you wanted to advance in your careerat a company like that in the South,
with lots of opportunities, but you had toplay the game, whatever the game was at
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wherever you were working back then.
you know, and the very family sensesensibility.
So it was always about bringing, you know,your wife and kids to the parties and
things like that, you know, and thereweren't any, anyone out that I knew of at
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the corporate headquarters.
we all started.
Yeah.
you know, you sort of get to know who eachother are.
Maybe you run into them in a bar in, youknow, Midtown Atlanta and you're like, my
gosh.
You know, or, so we, you know, you, youget your own networks, underground and
create that, that affinity for each otherto kind of support each other and, talk
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amongst yourselves outside of the officetype thing.
But, but you know, it, it.
It evolved and it's certainly changed and,you know, Atlanta's not what it was in the
early 90s.
Yeah, very different.
And I think, you know, still today, the,the stat that's out there today is that
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still 50 % of people in the workplace fearthat they're not going to get promoted or
won't be able to be up for that nextadvancement if they fully come out in the
workplace.
So I think I totally agree.
It's, it's different.
It's not maybe as tough to come out incertain environments, as you said,
geography company type, et cetera, but.
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still that fear exists.
You know, there's still the fear of what,what will happen to me, what will happen
to my career.
Well, I know you moved on from a greatcareer at Delta Airlines and stayed in the
travel industry and also went into thenonprofit space, but sort of evolved from
what was, you know, Delta, a traditionalcorporate, business into businesses that
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were more specifically within the LGBTQspace.
So tell me a little bit about how youeven,
How did you, you know, maybe those folkscame to you and said, Hey, we'd love to
hire you.
But as you were evaluating, I'm going toleave sort of what's what people view as
traditional corporate America and go intobusinesses like the human rights campaign
and otherwise that are truly and what youdo today for IGTLA that are truly in the
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LGBTQ plus space.
What, what sort of decision did you makeand what was your thinking to make that
transition into?
a more fully focused career in the LGBTQplus space.
Yeah, after Delta and the reason I leftDelta was 9 -11 and we financially the
corporation was was hemorrhaging as waseveryone in the travel and tourism
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industry and America at that time.
So I being that I have dual citizenshipwith Italy, I moved over to Italy for
three years andYou know, got rid of the tie and suit
every day.
and, went over there, but then I did comeback and I went to, I was recruited by
someone at destination DC and to work intheir area and the tourism office, you
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know, for a major city like DC is veryopen -minded and progressive and they, you
know, it's a diverse city.
So they know their client base is diverse.
They're they're.
employees are diverse, and you were freeto be whoever you wanted to be.
I was more on the corporate side, but thenalso had LGBT events and meetings under me
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because I was the gay guy in the office.
And IGLTA was one of the conferences thatI was going after.
But I also worked a lot with HRC for theirannual dinner at the Convention Center in
Washington.
And then I was recruited by HRC to comework for them and, and decided to do that.
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It was a different, different worldbecause it's a very, it's a, it's a
machine.
and I kind of missed the tourism aspectof, cause I grew up in the tourism
industry with my parents, being in theairline industry.
So,IGLTA ended up coming and recruiting me
from HRC.
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And I decided that, you know what?
I missed the tourism industry and the jobis in Fort Lauderdale.
I wouldn't mind living down by the beach.
And, and so there you had it.
And, you know, 17 years later, I'm stillat IGLTA in Fort Lauderdale.
And,And loving it, you know, being a
professional gay and helping, pay forwarda lot around the world.
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We work in 82 countries, many of which arenot welcoming at all to our community.
So it doesn't mean our community doesn'texist, but, organizations like ours try to
help lift, LGBT travel professionals inplaces where it's really challenging, all
over the world.
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And we do that through.
a great partnership with the US StateDepartment.
We also do it with United Nations andother organizations on the business side
of things, World Bank, Asian DevelopmentBank, companies like that that assist us.
And then we have a lot of great partnersthat we collaborate with, like Delta
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Airlines is one of our biggest AmericanExpress, Marriott, Hilton, Disney, Accor
out of Paris.
So.
We have some great partners that help usopen doors around the world.
Yeah.
And I, over the years I've heard of IGTLA,I'm an avid traveler, have friends in the
travel business who have, talked about theorganization to me, but what today, just
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an insight I'm curious about is, you know,back in the, back when we think of Atlanta
in the nineties, there was this thingcalled the Damron guide and you'd find,
you know, where are the friendly placesand where, where are the bars and what
hotels are friendly.
And there was, I think,from my perspective, and this could be a
very privileged perspective, but from myperspective, things have definitely
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improved.
And I'm not as mindful of that as I travelprobably thanks to the work that IGTLA has
done throughout the years.
But what are some of the challenges thatface LGBTQ plus travelers today?
Is it sort of.
Country specific is it is it sort ofcompanies that don't embrace and making
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sure that travelers are aware what aresome of the challenges that still today
exists.
I would say both of those, but I'd leanprobably a little bit more towards the
destinations because you can avoid aparticular company that's not welcoming.
But if you're traveling to a destinationthat's not welcoming or...
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you know, there's 70 of them, 70 countriesthat, you know, it's illegal to be LGBTQ.
So that's even more challenging.
So, you know, and something we advocate isthat no matter what your sexual
orientation is, you need to do yourresearch before you go understand the
laws, because that's very important andthe culture, you know, you can't go in
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there.
wanting them to change just because youare there, right?
Their culture and their history is deepand it takes time.
But going is a good thing because you wantto go and support LGBT travel
professionals and destinations where it ischallenging because they may not be able
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to afford or have the ability to leave,but they also want to thrive where they
are.
So byby going and supporting them is, I think,
really important.
And that's something we really work on.
And so, you know, if you're going toUganda, for example, which is an extreme
case, but if you're going to Ugandabecause they have the best gorilla
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safaris, okay, great.
But use an IGLTA member that knows whereyou can stay, that's going to be safe.
And tour guides that will make sureyou're, you know, you understand what you
can and cannot do there.
And, you know, basically just to have asafe, welcoming time because you're not,
you know, it's not Provincetown, you know,so you've got to, you've got to just be
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mindful.
And we've done some work with the statedepartment on some, some information about
different destinations.
And we have a lot of information on ourwebsite about legalities in every country.
But.
Again, you don't even have to be LGBTQ toget in trouble.
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You need to be mindful, whoever you are,when you travel.
Those of us that live in New York or LA,for example, that we're in a bit of a
bubble, and sometimes you forget that whenyou travel, even in the US, places in the
US.
Well, and you mentioned Uganda lastweekend.
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I coincidentally watched the Bobby Winedocumentary, on, their sort of
presidential hopeful and, and thechallenges that hap that are, that exist
and happen in that country.
And it's terrifying.
I mean, it's terrifying and thinking abouttraveling to a destination like that is
really overwhelming.
and tell us, I know that.
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I, you know, I ask folks on the podcastabout resources and it sounds like we've
struck a really great resource as aresource.
Where do folks go?
if they do, as you said, embark on, I'mthinking of traveling, I want to learn
more.
How can they, utilize IGT, IGTLA, where dothey go and how do they access that
information?
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Our website has a lot of informationbecause we are a nonprofit association.
So our whole core is about freeinformation and resources and contacts.
We're not a booking engine.
You know, we don't book travel likeExpedia or, or travel agent.
We have plenty that do, but we can helpyou find a good travel agent, for example,
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that, that specializes in safaris.
but our, our website is, is great for thattype of information all over the world.
The US State Department travel site isalso a good one.
ILGA, I -L -G -A dot org is more on thehuman rights side and that's also a really
good, it's more of like a maybe a globalversion of HRC to some extent, not so
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political but great resource as well whenyou're traveling.
Yeah.
I, you know, and myself, you know, havingvisited a lot of different countries
around the world, I actually truthfullyhaven't thought about hiring a tour in
countries where I have had to hire a touroperator for whatever reason, whether it
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be India or Africa, where it's just alittle more complicated in general to
travel.
I think that's a great idea to make surethat you are pointed in the right
direction and probably getting.
and education along the way of things tobe mindful of and to understand to your
point, whether you're LGBTQ or not, justmaking sure that you can be sort of honor
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culture and be ready for what thatsituation looks like in that country.
think, you know, if you're LGBTQ, I mean,you don't have to have an LGBTQ tour
guide, but they're going to be extrainterested in you and they're going to
give you history and things like thatabout the community there that you
wouldn't have even known.
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So it's always advantageous to support thecommunity when you travel, especially
places like India and Africa and Asia,really everywhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, tell me a little bitabout, I ask every guess about Clout for
Good is, is titled as such because whenyou are out and when you are being
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yourself and when you are open about thatin the workplace, you can definitely make
a great difference.
You can make an impact so you can use youroutness for, for good.
Tell me a little bit about,You know, where in your career could be,
you know, IGTLA specifically or otherwise,but where have you used your clout for
good and where have you, do you feel likeyou've made a significant impact that
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you're proud of that you could share with,with the listeners?
yeah, I think our IGLT foundation, whichwas something that I spearheaded in 2012,
the whole purpose for that was to payforward and help because we would get LGBT
travel businesses all over the worldreaching out to us thinking where there's
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big wealthy American company and, andwe're not, we're a nonprofit, but, but we
were very focused on.
more Western travel businesses, helpingmarket them, connecting them, which we
still do all that, but developing afoundation that can receive grants,
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donations, things like that, has beenenabling us to do conferences.
We do one every year in India, forexample, in South Africa, that are
regional in scope to help educate.
the travel industry, LGBTQ travel industryprofessionals in those places that may not
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be able to afford to go to Europe or NorthAmerica for conferences, you know, for
networking and education.
So we do things like that.
And then we do fellowship programs that webring them actually to our convention or
to one of those other conferences that wedo around the world.
So there's a lot we're doing on thefoundation that I'm really proud of.
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Research is another one.
not just about figuring out the dollarspend of our community, which is huge, but
also trends, what is our community lookingfor, you know, family travel is something
growing in the LGBT community.
So we're trying to identify things thatare trending as well as data that helps
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the industry overall and universities liketourism.
tourism departments at universities.
We work really closely with all over theworld and things like that, you know, just
to help elevate our community and give us,give us a voice.
You know, like you mentioned, you know, usbeing the only organization, LGBT
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organization at the UNWTO.
And basically the purpose of that isreally to give us a voice.
So we are, we have a seat at the table.
Otherwise LGBT issues would never come upbecause nobody else is going to bring it
up if, if, if we're not at the table.
Raywe just, you know, kind of hammer in that,
you know, Hey, don't forget about ourcommunity and diversity and our community
touches so many different communities,whether it's black or Latino women,
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disabled, you know, there's, there's, wetouch everything.
So there's LGBTQ people in every communityin the world.
So, that's why we work with a lot ofmainstream organizations, like the UNWTO.
is that we do have a voice and get ourmembers some visibility as well.
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That's great.
I mean, I have myself seen no, no, no, no,it's great.
And I think that, you know, I myselfhaving just been such a travel lover my
entire life, I've seen a huge differencein the way I feel traveling.
And I love what you said a little earlierabout utilizing businesses that are LGBT
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owned or at least friendly.
And I, it made me just now think back to.
20 something years ago, my first trip toBali and I hired this, a guy who
identified as a gay man and he took myfriend and I on a tour of the island.
And, you know, I think as you also, as yousay, you know, if no one else is there and
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showing up, it doesn't make any change.
And so one, it was, I think it was such agreat feeling to give that gentleman
business, but it was also great to build arelationship with him on that tour.
And,And he was so interested in what we were
doing and who we were, and we were equallyas interested in him as well.
So it's just such a great exchange.
And I think it really enables people to, Ithink, see things through an LGBTQ lens,
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which, as you've mentioned, we sort oftend to do in our little bubbles here in
the US.
So I think it's a really great way toexperience a new place and be able to see
how your community lives somewhere else.
Yeah, and like you said, he was curiousabout your lives, you know, because you're
another world away and he's probably neverbeen to the States.
But yeah, we really encourage people touse our members because these are people
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who are out there all over, Jamaica even,you know, Jamaica is a really tough one
for us and the Americas, but they have avery large LGBT community, particularly
transgender.
they have some great nonprofits there thatif you're going because your brother is
getting married in Jamaica and you don'treally want to go to Jamaica, but you have
to go.
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No, why not give a day or half a day andvolunteer at one of the LGBT organizations
there?
That's, that's what we always try to tryto say.
It's fun to do that.
And they.
Yeah, I bet.
Well, and so changing gears a little bitnow thinking of all the experience you've
had in your career, I'm sure in managinglots of lots of people in the leadership
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roles you've had and also being managed byothers and part of organizations.
What, what advice now that you sort oflook back at your journey and you've seen,
corporate and nonprofit America sort ofevolve.
What advice, looking back at your ownexperience, would you share to maybe
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someone who's new to the workforce andthey're thinking about, I think I want to
show up.
I want to come out, maybe potentially thatseriously, or even to someone who maybe
hasn't been out in the workplace andthey're trying to sort of think about how
to navigate it.
What advice would you give folks that arethinking about,
showing up a little differently in theworkplace.
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My advice would be, you know, I'm kind ofa cautious or conservative person in some
ways, but, you know, be your authenticself, but don't cram it down someone's
throat.
Especially if you're in a more, you know,growing up in the South, for the most
part, you know, there are a lot of placesin America that they're still not quite
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there yet.
So, you know, you may be there yet.
You may be there because you're, you'reloud and proud and you're 23, but,
You know, you have to be mindful of otherpeople and where they're at and give them
a little bit of breathing room and kind ofmaybe take it slower because again, not
everywhere is New York City, you know.
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So that's probably my biggest advice isdon't go in the closet, but be
compassionate with people who may not getit.
and give them time and as they learn aboutyou and learn to like you and love you,
they're going to accept you.
It just takes a little bit of time.
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You know, I agree a hundred percent.
I think that, you know, one thing that Ilearned growing up in a very small town in
Michigan and coming out late in mytwenties and coming out.
And it's a lot of it is really aboutexposure and to your point of meeting
folks where they are, it may just beyou've made these big decisions.
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You're experiencing this new self that youhave and meeting new people in your new
community.
But a lot of people aren't.
exposed to that.
And certainly we can say they shouldexperience and should go research and
educate themselves, which they should.
But that may not be the situation.
And I think meeting folks where they areis really, it's really good advice because
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often it's about that exposure and, well,I know John and okay, now I'm
understanding he identifies as gay andthat seems fine to me and kind of going
along your journey together.
And I think also that,You know, giving folks the benefit of the
doubt, I think is something that's come upon Cloud for Good quite a bit.
(28:02):
Guests have said, you may be terrified andthat may be justified, but often people
really are compassionate and people reallywill listen and will learn.
And I think you're, I think you're right.
It's sort of, it's a little bit of proceedwith caution.
And I think the other thing people havesaid, and you alluded to in your own
experiences, you know, you kind of findyour people along the way.
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and then let that expand a bit.
Well, and John, one final question that Iask everyone is, we wanna know who has
inspired you along the way.
So for a moment, imagine you're hosting aClout for Good dinner party and you're
gonna invite folks to come to this partyto celebrate.
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So what maybe queer icon or queer persondoesn't necessarily even have to be an
icon?
has inspired you or is there someone thatyou just appreciate as part of your
journey that you'd like to invite to yourClout For Good dinner party?
Hmm.
Well, I think I'd invite my parentsbecause they're both deceased and it'd be
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fantastic to have them at a dinner party.
Let them see where I am now in my life.
But as far as queer icons, I mean, I havesome favorites.
I don't know if they're my influence.
I mean, I'd love to have dinner withsomeone like Cher and Lily Tomlin and Rock
Hudson.
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Marsha Johnson would be fascinating tohave dinner with.
Alan Turing.
Betty White.
You can see I tend to go for more of thevintage.
I like it.
The Rock Hudson has not come up inconversations and talk about needing to
figure out a way to be authentic.
I mean, what a challenged, you know, yeah,life that he went through and had to
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navigate.
Well, those are great.
I love that.
think on the same term of Rock Hudson,another dreamy man that was in the closet,
Cary Grant would be fascinating.
And today in 2024, look at the worldtoday, Cary.
When you were living, you couldn't beauthentic.
So it'd be interesting to hear theperspectives of, like Rock Hudson back in
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their day, what it was like, I think wouldbe a very interesting conversation.
I think so too.
And such highly orchestrated closet -ness.
I mean, such highly orchestrated becausethey were such public figures and sought
after figures.
And you know, I'm going to ask you a bonusquestion because of what you do for a
living.
I have to imagine your location for yourClout for Good dinner could be
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interesting.
Where, maybe, where's one of your favoriteplaces that you've...
Traveled having seen the world and workedwith all these places.
What are some of your favoritedestinations?
Where might you even consider hosting yourclub for good party?
Well, I've been around a while, so I havebeen to 45 countries, which is a lot, you
know, not as many as some people, but it'sa lot.
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I wouldn't say there's anywhere I didn'tlike, but some that might come to the top
of my list to answer your question.
I think South Africa is up there, Italy,Hawaii, those are probably three that come
to mind.
it.
I love it.
And I'm actually just curious personally,because you made this comment and you
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invited your parents to your dinner andyou also made a comment earlier that they
had been in the travel industry.
They were in the travel industry as well?
What did they do?
They both in the airline industry.
That's how they met.
They met at LaGuardia airport.
They were working for American airlinesand my mom was at the ticket counter and
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my dad was on the ramp.
And every day he would wink at her and shewouldn't talk to him because she thought
he was fresh.
And he eventually wore her down and therest is history.
So that's a great story.
it's a really great story.
And you've taken that and expanded it andbuilt on it and lived in Italy to honor
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your family and all sorts of things, whichis amazing.
Well, John, thank you so much for what youdo for the community.
Again, I keep saying I'm, I am such atravel person.
I love traveling and it's my focus always.
I always like to have another trip planright as I'm finishing up my trip that I'm
on.
So I truly do and I know a lot of folkswithin the community really appreciate
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what IGTLA does and what you're doing.
So thanks so much for joining me today.
for having me.
It was great to have this conversation.
I appreciate it.
absolutely.
And to my listeners, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood .com to subscribe to our
(32:53):
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Cloud for Good to make a difference
in your workplace.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi -weekly podcastthat showcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:23):
workplace.
Today, I'm having a conversation with JohnTanzala.
John is the president and CEO.
of the International LGBTQ plus travelassociation, which is the global leader in
advancing LGBTQ plus travel and is theonly LGD, LG hold on so many LGBTQ plus,
(00:45):
at least I'm not having to say a I a inthe middle of it too.
Okay.
Today I'm having a conversation with JohnTanzella.
John is the president and CEO of theInternational LGBTQ Plus Travel
Association, which is the global leader inadvancing LGBTQ plus travel and is the
(01:06):
only LGBTQ plus affiliate member of theWorld Tourism Organization.
IGTLA's network consists of over 12 ,000tourism business professionals across 80
countries.
John is a 25 year tourism industry veteranhaving worked with both Delta Airlines and
destination DC.
(01:28):
He currently serves on the board ofdirectors for both the Stonewall National
Museum and Archives and Tourism DiversityMatters.
John is a University of Georgia alum andresides in beautiful Fort Lauderdale,
Florida.
John, welcome to the show and thanks forjoining me today.
Hi David, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure and an honor toparticipate and I love the fact that this
(01:52):
podcast exists.
So I think what you're doing is a greatthing.
So thank you for including me.
Yeah, thanks John.
Well, let's let's jump in.
So why don't you tell us a little bitabout how you identify and tell us when
and where did you come out?
I know coming out in the workplace isn'tusually a one and done situation.
(02:13):
There's usually a lot of conversations anda lot of experiences throughout our
careers, but.
Maybe tell us a little bit about one ofthe first times that you came out, where
were you working?
What was the situation and tell us alittle bit about that experience.
Well, thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And as far as looking at when I came out,I'm quite a bit...
(02:39):
let me start that one over, sorry.
Ready?
Thank you.
My pronouns are he, him, his.
And to answer your question of when I cameout, I would have probably have been in my
late 20s, working in corporate America,Delta's corporate offices headquarters.
(03:07):
Back then in the early 90s, mid 90s, youknow, it was a different world for...
LGBTQ professionals, especially in theSouth back then.
Certainly things have changed considerablyin Atlanta and at Delta Airlines and the
(03:28):
South.
But back then it was much morechallenging.
to be your authentic self and to be out atthe workplace, something you really kept
under the wraps unless you were in more ofan environment such as maybe a flight
attendant has a little more flexibility tocome out versus being a corporate office
(03:52):
where you're with a much more conservativeworkplace back then.
Yeah.
And, and John, I think I maybe hadmentioned this to you when we, when we
first had met, I came out in Atlanta inthe early nineties as well.
And I know there's this, if you're insidethe perimeter, you're safe.
(04:13):
And, I know Delta airlines corporateheadquarters is not inside the perimeter.
It's down at Hartsfield internationalairport.
but there's this perception of the travelindustry.
I think a couple of things that are reallyinteresting.
There's this perception of the travelindustry.
employs a lot of LGBTQ plus people, evenback then, I think there was still that.
(04:35):
And you just brought up, I think, whatfolks may even think of as a stereotype
as, flight attendants might be, they mightidentify as part of the LGBTQ community.
Why do you think, as you just said, maybethere was a little more freedom if you
were a flight attendant than if you wereat headquarters?
It's so interesting because I know there'sthousands and thousands of flight
(04:56):
attendants.
So it's, it's a really large populationwithin an airline.
What, what, what do you think that was allabout?
Why was it sort of more okay to be aflight attendant and be out versus working
in corporate headquarters?
What do you think was driving that?
I think it was just the freedom as aflight attendant.
You're not going into an office everymorning at eight o 'clock.
(05:20):
You're traveling the world with five orsix other individuals and you're not
really under the microscope the way youare in a corporate office environment
working in cubicles and answering tosomeone every day all day that you're
with.
So it's just that freedom.
(05:41):
Hmm.
And again, this was the 90s, so it's verydifferent at Delta now and what they do in
our space and in the South, certainlyAtlanta.
I mean, it may be still somewhatchallenging in small towns and rural
South, if you look at Alabama,Mississippi, places like that, but in
(06:01):
South Georgia, but certainly not Atlantathough.
Definitely not inside the perimeter.
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I, I've, I've not been back asoften, but I do certainly have friends
that still live in Atlanta and certainlyknow the advances that Delta airlines in
particular, has made.
What do you think were, if you think backto those days in the nineties and you're
(06:24):
at the corporate offices and you're sortof coming into yourself, and early in your
career with your own authenticity and whoyou are.
What were some of the things that maybe ifyou can recall sort of entered into your
mind sort of why, why wouldn't you share?
Was there, what were, what were the fearsor what were the reservations that kept
(06:47):
you to whatever degree you were not beingauthentic to certain groups or certain
people?
What were some of the reasons why that washappening back then?
Do you think?
I think because in that corporate southernenvironment, it was a very conservative
macho type of environment.
(07:09):
There wasn't even women in leadershippositions back then, right?
Or it was scarce, not like today.
So if you wanted to advance in your careerat a company like that in the South,
with lots of opportunities, but you had toplay the game, whatever the game was at
(07:31):
wherever you were working back then.
you know, and the very family sensesensibility.
So it was always about bringing, you know,your wife and kids to the parties and
things like that, you know, and thereweren't any, anyone out that I knew of at
(07:52):
the corporate headquarters.
we all started.
Yeah.
you know, you sort of get to know who eachother are.
Maybe you run into them in a bar in, youknow, Midtown Atlanta and you're like, my
gosh.
You know, or, so we, you know, you, youget your own networks, underground and
create that, that affinity for each otherto kind of support each other and, talk
(08:18):
amongst yourselves outside of the officetype thing.
But, but you know, it, it.
It evolved and it's certainly changed and,you know, Atlanta's not what it was in the
early 90s.
Yeah, very different.
And I think, you know, still today, the,the stat that's out there today is that
(08:39):
still 50 % of people in the workplace fearthat they're not going to get promoted or
won't be able to be up for that nextadvancement if they fully come out in the
workplace.
So I think I totally agree.
It's, it's different.
It's not maybe as tough to come out incertain environments, as you said,
geography company type, et cetera, but.
(09:01):
still that fear exists.
You know, there's still the fear of what,what will happen to me, what will happen
to my career.
Well, I know you moved on from a greatcareer at Delta Airlines and stayed in the
travel industry and also went into thenonprofit space, but sort of evolved from
what was, you know, Delta, a traditionalcorporate, business into businesses that
(09:25):
were more specifically within the LGBTQspace.
So tell me a little bit about how youeven,
How did you, you know, maybe those folkscame to you and said, Hey, we'd love to
hire you.
But as you were evaluating, I'm going toleave sort of what's what people view as
traditional corporate America and go intobusinesses like the human rights campaign
and otherwise that are truly and what youdo today for IGTLA that are truly in the
(09:50):
LGBTQ plus space.
What, what sort of decision did you makeand what was your thinking to make that
transition into?
a more fully focused career in the LGBTQplus space.
Yeah, after Delta and the reason I leftDelta was 9 -11 and we financially the
corporation was was hemorrhaging as waseveryone in the travel and tourism
(10:14):
industry and America at that time.
So I being that I have dual citizenshipwith Italy, I moved over to Italy for
three years andYou know, got rid of the tie and suit
every day.
and, went over there, but then I did comeback and I went to, I was recruited by
someone at destination DC and to work intheir area and the tourism office, you
(10:40):
know, for a major city like DC is veryopen -minded and progressive and they, you
know, it's a diverse city.
So they know their client base is diverse.
They're they're.
employees are diverse, and you were freeto be whoever you wanted to be.
I was more on the corporate side, but thenalso had LGBT events and meetings under me
(11:03):
because I was the gay guy in the office.
And IGLTA was one of the conferences thatI was going after.
But I also worked a lot with HRC for theirannual dinner at the Convention Center in
Washington.
And then I was recruited by HRC to comework for them and, and decided to do that.
(11:24):
It was a different, different worldbecause it's a very, it's a, it's a
machine.
and I kind of missed the tourism aspectof, cause I grew up in the tourism
industry with my parents, being in theairline industry.
So,IGLTA ended up coming and recruiting me
from HRC.
(11:44):
And I decided that, you know what?
I missed the tourism industry and the jobis in Fort Lauderdale.
I wouldn't mind living down by the beach.
And, and so there you had it.
And, you know, 17 years later, I'm stillat IGLTA in Fort Lauderdale.
And,And loving it, you know, being a
professional gay and helping, pay forwarda lot around the world.
(12:09):
We work in 82 countries, many of which arenot welcoming at all to our community.
So it doesn't mean our community doesn'texist, but, organizations like ours try to
help lift, LGBT travel professionals inplaces where it's really challenging, all
over the world.
(12:29):
And we do that through.
a great partnership with the US StateDepartment.
We also do it with United Nations andother organizations on the business side
of things, World Bank, Asian DevelopmentBank, companies like that that assist us.
And then we have a lot of great partnersthat we collaborate with, like Delta
(12:50):
Airlines is one of our biggest AmericanExpress, Marriott, Hilton, Disney, Accor
out of Paris.
So.
We have some great partners that help usopen doors around the world.
Yeah.
And I, over the years I've heard of IGTLA,I'm an avid traveler, have friends in the
travel business who have, talked about theorganization to me, but what today, just
(13:16):
an insight I'm curious about is, you know,back in the, back when we think of Atlanta
in the nineties, there was this thingcalled the Damron guide and you'd find,
you know, where are the friendly placesand where, where are the bars and what
hotels are friendly.
And there was, I think,from my perspective, and this could be a
very privileged perspective, but from myperspective, things have definitely
(13:37):
improved.
And I'm not as mindful of that as I travelprobably thanks to the work that IGTLA has
done throughout the years.
But what are some of the challenges thatface LGBTQ plus travelers today?
Is it sort of.
Country specific is it is it sort ofcompanies that don't embrace and making
(13:59):
sure that travelers are aware what aresome of the challenges that still today
exists.
I would say both of those, but I'd leanprobably a little bit more towards the
destinations because you can avoid aparticular company that's not welcoming.
But if you're traveling to a destinationthat's not welcoming or...
(14:22):
you know, there's 70 of them, 70 countriesthat, you know, it's illegal to be LGBTQ.
So that's even more challenging.
So, you know, and something we advocate isthat no matter what your sexual
orientation is, you need to do yourresearch before you go understand the
laws, because that's very important andthe culture, you know, you can't go in
(14:45):
there.
wanting them to change just because youare there, right?
Their culture and their history is deepand it takes time.
But going is a good thing because you wantto go and support LGBT travel
professionals and destinations where it ischallenging because they may not be able
(15:07):
to afford or have the ability to leave,but they also want to thrive where they
are.
So byby going and supporting them is, I think,
really important.
And that's something we really work on.
And so, you know, if you're going toUganda, for example, which is an extreme
case, but if you're going to Ugandabecause they have the best gorilla
(15:28):
safaris, okay, great.
But use an IGLTA member that knows whereyou can stay, that's going to be safe.
And tour guides that will make sureyou're, you know, you understand what you
can and cannot do there.
And, you know, basically just to have asafe, welcoming time because you're not,
you know, it's not Provincetown, you know,so you've got to, you've got to just be
(15:52):
mindful.
And we've done some work with the statedepartment on some, some information about
different destinations.
And we have a lot of information on ourwebsite about legalities in every country.
But.
Again, you don't even have to be LGBTQ toget in trouble.
(16:13):
You need to be mindful, whoever you are,when you travel.
Those of us that live in New York or LA,for example, that we're in a bit of a
bubble, and sometimes you forget that whenyou travel, even in the US, places in the
US.
Well, and you mentioned Uganda lastweekend.
(16:34):
I coincidentally watched the Bobby Winedocumentary, on, their sort of
presidential hopeful and, and thechallenges that hap that are, that exist
and happen in that country.
And it's terrifying.
I mean, it's terrifying and thinking abouttraveling to a destination like that is
really overwhelming.
and tell us, I know that.
(16:55):
I, you know, I ask folks on the podcastabout resources and it sounds like we've
struck a really great resource as aresource.
Where do folks go?
if they do, as you said, embark on, I'mthinking of traveling, I want to learn
more.
How can they, utilize IGT, IGTLA, where dothey go and how do they access that
information?
(17:15):
Our website has a lot of informationbecause we are a nonprofit association.
So our whole core is about freeinformation and resources and contacts.
We're not a booking engine.
You know, we don't book travel likeExpedia or, or travel agent.
We have plenty that do, but we can helpyou find a good travel agent, for example,
(17:36):
that, that specializes in safaris.
but our, our website is, is great for thattype of information all over the world.
The US State Department travel site isalso a good one.
ILGA, I -L -G -A dot org is more on thehuman rights side and that's also a really
good, it's more of like a maybe a globalversion of HRC to some extent, not so
(18:00):
political but great resource as well whenyou're traveling.
Yeah.
I, you know, and myself, you know, havingvisited a lot of different countries
around the world, I actually truthfullyhaven't thought about hiring a tour in
countries where I have had to hire a touroperator for whatever reason, whether it
(18:22):
be India or Africa, where it's just alittle more complicated in general to
travel.
I think that's a great idea to make surethat you are pointed in the right
direction and probably getting.
and education along the way of things tobe mindful of and to understand to your
point, whether you're LGBTQ or not, justmaking sure that you can be sort of honor
(18:44):
culture and be ready for what thatsituation looks like in that country.
think, you know, if you're LGBTQ, I mean,you don't have to have an LGBTQ tour
guide, but they're going to be extrainterested in you and they're going to
give you history and things like thatabout the community there that you
wouldn't have even known.
(19:04):
So it's always advantageous to support thecommunity when you travel, especially
places like India and Africa and Asia,really everywhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, tell me a little bitabout, I ask every guess about Clout for
Good is, is titled as such because whenyou are out and when you are being
(19:28):
yourself and when you are open about thatin the workplace, you can definitely make
a great difference.
You can make an impact so you can use youroutness for, for good.
Tell me a little bit about,You know, where in your career could be,
you know, IGTLA specifically or otherwise,but where have you used your clout for
good and where have you, do you feel likeyou've made a significant impact that
(19:52):
you're proud of that you could share with,with the listeners?
yeah, I think our IGLT foundation, whichwas something that I spearheaded in 2012,
the whole purpose for that was to payforward and help because we would get LGBT
travel businesses all over the worldreaching out to us thinking where there's
(20:14):
big wealthy American company and, andwe're not, we're a nonprofit, but, but we
were very focused on.
more Western travel businesses, helpingmarket them, connecting them, which we
still do all that, but developing afoundation that can receive grants,
(20:35):
donations, things like that, has beenenabling us to do conferences.
We do one every year in India, forexample, in South Africa, that are
regional in scope to help educate.
the travel industry, LGBTQ travel industryprofessionals in those places that may not
(20:56):
be able to afford to go to Europe or NorthAmerica for conferences, you know, for
networking and education.
So we do things like that.
And then we do fellowship programs that webring them actually to our convention or
to one of those other conferences that wedo around the world.
So there's a lot we're doing on thefoundation that I'm really proud of.
(21:18):
Research is another one.
not just about figuring out the dollarspend of our community, which is huge, but
also trends, what is our community lookingfor, you know, family travel is something
growing in the LGBT community.
So we're trying to identify things thatare trending as well as data that helps
(21:43):
the industry overall and universities liketourism.
tourism departments at universities.
We work really closely with all over theworld and things like that, you know, just
to help elevate our community and give us,give us a voice.
You know, like you mentioned, you know, usbeing the only organization, LGBT
(22:05):
organization at the UNWTO.
And basically the purpose of that isreally to give us a voice.
So we are, we have a seat at the table.
Otherwise LGBT issues would never come upbecause nobody else is going to bring it
up if, if, if we're not at the table.
Raywe just, you know, kind of hammer in that,
you know, Hey, don't forget about ourcommunity and diversity and our community
touches so many different communities,whether it's black or Latino women,
(22:28):
disabled, you know, there's, there's, wetouch everything.
So there's LGBTQ people in every communityin the world.
So, that's why we work with a lot ofmainstream organizations, like the UNWTO.
is that we do have a voice and get ourmembers some visibility as well.
(22:54):
That's great.
I mean, I have myself seen no, no, no, no,it's great.
And I think that, you know, I myselfhaving just been such a travel lover my
entire life, I've seen a huge differencein the way I feel traveling.
And I love what you said a little earlierabout utilizing businesses that are LGBT
(23:16):
owned or at least friendly.
And I, it made me just now think back to.
20 something years ago, my first trip toBali and I hired this, a guy who
identified as a gay man and he took myfriend and I on a tour of the island.
And, you know, I think as you also, as yousay, you know, if no one else is there and
(23:37):
showing up, it doesn't make any change.
And so one, it was, I think it was such agreat feeling to give that gentleman
business, but it was also great to build arelationship with him on that tour.
And,And he was so interested in what we were
doing and who we were, and we were equallyas interested in him as well.
So it's just such a great exchange.
And I think it really enables people to, Ithink, see things through an LGBTQ lens,
(24:03):
which, as you've mentioned, we sort oftend to do in our little bubbles here in
the US.
So I think it's a really great way toexperience a new place and be able to see
how your community lives somewhere else.
Yeah, and like you said, he was curiousabout your lives, you know, because you're
another world away and he's probably neverbeen to the States.
But yeah, we really encourage people touse our members because these are people
(24:27):
who are out there all over, Jamaica even,you know, Jamaica is a really tough one
for us and the Americas, but they have avery large LGBT community, particularly
transgender.
they have some great nonprofits there thatif you're going because your brother is
getting married in Jamaica and you don'treally want to go to Jamaica, but you have
to go.
(24:47):
No, why not give a day or half a day andvolunteer at one of the LGBT organizations
there?
That's, that's what we always try to tryto say.
It's fun to do that.
And they.
Yeah, I bet.
Well, and so changing gears a little bitnow thinking of all the experience you've
had in your career, I'm sure in managinglots of lots of people in the leadership
(25:10):
roles you've had and also being managed byothers and part of organizations.
What, what advice now that you sort oflook back at your journey and you've seen,
corporate and nonprofit America sort ofevolve.
What advice, looking back at your ownexperience, would you share to maybe
(25:31):
someone who's new to the workforce andthey're thinking about, I think I want to
show up.
I want to come out, maybe potentially thatseriously, or even to someone who maybe
hasn't been out in the workplace andthey're trying to sort of think about how
to navigate it.
What advice would you give folks that arethinking about,
showing up a little differently in theworkplace.
(25:54):
My advice would be, you know, I'm kind ofa cautious or conservative person in some
ways, but, you know, be your authenticself, but don't cram it down someone's
throat.
Especially if you're in a more, you know,growing up in the South, for the most
part, you know, there are a lot of placesin America that they're still not quite
(26:17):
there yet.
So, you know, you may be there yet.
You may be there because you're, you'reloud and proud and you're 23, but,
You know, you have to be mindful of otherpeople and where they're at and give them
a little bit of breathing room and kind ofmaybe take it slower because again, not
everywhere is New York City, you know.
(26:38):
So that's probably my biggest advice isdon't go in the closet, but be
compassionate with people who may not getit.
and give them time and as they learn aboutyou and learn to like you and love you,
they're going to accept you.
It just takes a little bit of time.
(26:59):
You know, I agree a hundred percent.
I think that, you know, one thing that Ilearned growing up in a very small town in
Michigan and coming out late in mytwenties and coming out.
And it's a lot of it is really aboutexposure and to your point of meeting
folks where they are, it may just beyou've made these big decisions.
(27:19):
You're experiencing this new self that youhave and meeting new people in your new
community.
But a lot of people aren't.
exposed to that.
And certainly we can say they shouldexperience and should go research and
educate themselves, which they should.
But that may not be the situation.
And I think meeting folks where they areis really, it's really good advice because
(27:39):
often it's about that exposure and, well,I know John and okay, now I'm
understanding he identifies as gay andthat seems fine to me and kind of going
along your journey together.
And I think also that,You know, giving folks the benefit of the
doubt, I think is something that's come upon Cloud for Good quite a bit.
(28:02):
Guests have said, you may be terrified andthat may be justified, but often people
really are compassionate and people reallywill listen and will learn.
And I think you're, I think you're right.
It's sort of, it's a little bit of proceedwith caution.
And I think the other thing people havesaid, and you alluded to in your own
experiences, you know, you kind of findyour people along the way.
(28:24):
and then let that expand a bit.
Well, and John, one final question that Iask everyone is, we wanna know who has
inspired you along the way.
So for a moment, imagine you're hosting aClout for Good dinner party and you're
gonna invite folks to come to this partyto celebrate.
(28:45):
So what maybe queer icon or queer persondoesn't necessarily even have to be an
icon?
has inspired you or is there someone thatyou just appreciate as part of your
journey that you'd like to invite to yourClout For Good dinner party?
Hmm.
Well, I think I'd invite my parentsbecause they're both deceased and it'd be
(29:06):
fantastic to have them at a dinner party.
Let them see where I am now in my life.
But as far as queer icons, I mean, I havesome favorites.
I don't know if they're my influence.
I mean, I'd love to have dinner withsomeone like Cher and Lily Tomlin and Rock
Hudson.
(29:27):
Marsha Johnson would be fascinating tohave dinner with.
Alan Turing.
Betty White.
You can see I tend to go for more of thevintage.
I like it.
The Rock Hudson has not come up inconversations and talk about needing to
figure out a way to be authentic.
I mean, what a challenged, you know, yeah,life that he went through and had to
(29:52):
navigate.
Well, those are great.
I love that.
think on the same term of Rock Hudson,another dreamy man that was in the closet,
Cary Grant would be fascinating.
And today in 2024, look at the worldtoday, Cary.
When you were living, you couldn't beauthentic.
So it'd be interesting to hear theperspectives of, like Rock Hudson back in
(30:14):
their day, what it was like, I think wouldbe a very interesting conversation.
I think so too.
And such highly orchestrated closet -ness.
I mean, such highly orchestrated becausethey were such public figures and sought
after figures.
And you know, I'm going to ask you a bonusquestion because of what you do for a
living.
I have to imagine your location for yourClout for Good dinner could be
(30:39):
interesting.
Where, maybe, where's one of your favoriteplaces that you've...
Traveled having seen the world and workedwith all these places.
What are some of your favoritedestinations?
Where might you even consider hosting yourclub for good party?
Well, I've been around a while, so I havebeen to 45 countries, which is a lot, you
know, not as many as some people, but it'sa lot.
(31:02):
I wouldn't say there's anywhere I didn'tlike, but some that might come to the top
of my list to answer your question.
I think South Africa is up there, Italy,Hawaii, those are probably three that come
to mind.
it.
I love it.
And I'm actually just curious personally,because you made this comment and you
(31:26):
invited your parents to your dinner andyou also made a comment earlier that they
had been in the travel industry.
They were in the travel industry as well?
What did they do?
They both in the airline industry.
That's how they met.
They met at LaGuardia airport.
They were working for American airlinesand my mom was at the ticket counter and
(31:47):
my dad was on the ramp.
And every day he would wink at her and shewouldn't talk to him because she thought
he was fresh.
And he eventually wore her down and therest is history.
So that's a great story.
it's a really great story.
And you've taken that and expanded it andbuilt on it and lived in Italy to honor
(32:09):
your family and all sorts of things, whichis amazing.
Well, John, thank you so much for what youdo for the community.
Again, I keep saying I'm, I am such atravel person.
I love traveling and it's my focus always.
I always like to have another trip planright as I'm finishing up my trip that I'm
on.
So I truly do and I know a lot of folkswithin the community really appreciate
(32:32):
what IGTLA does and what you're doing.
So thanks so much for joining me today.
for having me.
It was great to have this conversation.
I appreciate it.
absolutely.
And to my listeners, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood .com to subscribe to our
(32:53):
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour Cloud for Good to make a difference
in your workplace.
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