Not Everyone Comes Out on Their Own Terms: Matt’s Story (Part 1) | Ep 21

New episodes every Thursday | Hosted by Blaine & Reed

We’ve kept this conversation in the vault for nearly a year—because it’s that important.

After 35 years of marriage, Matt was outed overnight. Part 1 captures the immediate shock-wave: family fallout, buried trauma, and the first steps toward rebuilding a life that was never supposed to stay hidden.

This isn’t just a coming-out story. It’s about the cost of secrets, the long shadow of shame, and what it takes to start over with integrity.

🎙️ Part of our ongoing Because of Them series—honoring the lives and stories that made Pride possible. Some were loud. Some were quiet. All mattered.

🔍 What We Cover

• The split-second moment Matt’s secret became public
• Decades of secrecy and its impact on identity & relationships
• Therapy as a lifeline when truth finally surfaces
• Why support systems are critical when the closet door is ripped open

⭐ Key Takeaways

1. Coming out isn’t always a choice.
2. Secrets carry a heavy psychological price.
3. Family dynamics stay complicated long after the reveal.
4. Healing starts with truth, therapy, and community.

⏱️ Chapter Breakdown

00:00 — Introduction to the Journey
02:51 — The Unexpected Outing
05:49 — The Aftermath of Being Outed
08:58 — Family Dynamics and Reactions
11:59 — Navigating the Emotional Turmoil
15:04 — Confronting the Truth
18:02 — Seeking Help and Support
20:49 — The Impact of Trauma
24:03 — Understanding Identity and Acceptance
26:56 — Finding a Path Forward
33:10 — Rationalizing Identity and Behavior
36:09 — The Complexity of Coming Out
39:12 — The Burden of Secrets
41:36 — The Impact of Therapy on Self-Discovery
45:19 — Navigating Relationships Post-Come-Out
48:00 — Experiences in Treatment Facilities
53:30 — Reflections on Self-Entitlement and Guilt
56:39 — The Evolution of Connections in the LGBTQ+ Community
01:01:45 — Mental Health and Workplace Dynamics
01:03:35 — The Importance of Resources for the LGBTQ+ Community

🔊 Memorable Lines

• “I was ripped out of the closet.”
• “I didn’t want to hurt people.”
• “I was so f*cking entitled.”

🧭 Why It Matters

Not everyone gets to come out on their own terms. Matt’s story shows how heavy the closet can be—and how powerful truth becomes once spoken aloud.

🎧 Listen now, then queue Part 2 to hear how Matt starts over at 60.
💬 Tell us: Who made your Pride possible?
📲 Follow @coffeewithgays for clips, polls & more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
I said let me have it , there's more.
He's, the guy's beencommunicating with the kids and
everybody else.
You know, I literally I'm inthe put my head in my hands and

(00:26):
looked up and said my life isover.
That's what I said.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Wow.
So that is from our friend Matt, and we recorded that actually
a year ago and he was in thecloset for 35 years basically
cruising gay bars, parks, likethe things that you always hear
about that like you've never meta person like this.
And I met him here in Dallasand we decided to interview him

(00:56):
with Coffee with Gays.
He was outed just an incrediblestory.
It was very painful.
So episode one is about hisouting and then episode two is
kind of like after he was outedand like his life afterwards.
It's really a story ofredemption and we thought it
would be really good for Pridebut we couldn't launch it last
year for so many reasons.
So this year we're launching itfor Pride and I just wanted to

(01:20):
open with that clip because Ithink we forget that we've come
so far and there were so manypeople that have been in the
closet and just didn't reallyhave the ability to come out and
be free.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Well, I'm looking forward to watching, listening.
I do appreciate that clip ofMatt's episode because I had no
idea.
I mean, I know you guysrecorded it a year ago, but
thank you for showing me alittle clip of that because I
had.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
I honestly, I had no idea you for showing me a little
clip of that, because I had.
I honestly I had no idea.
So yeah, it's really amazing.
So part one drops june 12th andthen part two drops the next
week, on june 19th welcome tocoffee with gays welcome to
coffee with gays everybody weare in the studio today we have
a studio.
I am like this is like reallylike we're moving on up feeling

(02:05):
very professional tonight, veryprofessional yes, and I'm blaine
, I'm ryan, I'm adam, and wehave a special guest here today
matt, I'm mad well I I can'tbelieve I'm sitting in a room
with three gays.
It's a fantasy with gays withcoffee and the reason or the

(02:27):
reason it is a fantasy isbecause matt actually has an
amazing story and we just metwhat I don't know two weeks,
three weeks ago, and matt wasouted after 35 years being
married and got ripped out ofthe freaking closet as an
amazing story.
And we just recently talkedabout coming out of the freaking
closet as an amazing story, andwe just recently talked about

(02:47):
coming out of the closetourselves and all of our stories
.
It's such an amazing story thatI really wanted to do this
segment.
We really wanted to do it right, which is why we're in this
studio setting today and that'swhat we're talking about,
because it's really fascinatingand we really are interested in
your perspective post coming outas well.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
So just to give a teaser, matt literally was
ripped out of the closet orexposed by a complete stranger
to his entire family and theyare like all in shock.
But we are going to touch allabout that today.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Let me just add I don't consider it an amazing
story.
I consider it a story that I'mhappy to tell, but there's a lot
of different angles to it.
It's very true.
Happiness, sadness, yeah, soamazing isn't quite the word.
I'd use A very emotional story.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, I agree, we've talked for a few hours about
this topic and it is veryrollercoaster-esque, and we are
going to do this in two parts.
So this will be a two episodeseries that we're doing more to
focus on the kind of more darkportion of it and then more your
perspective after because I Ireally do love your perspective
post a lot of this trauma thathas happened to you and then a

(04:01):
lot of the work that you havedone and I think you've done so
much amazing work and, um, wereally want to kind of focus
also on like kind of the beautyof the after, as well, also,
there is light at the end of thetunnel.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, there is I didn't think there would be and
there is yes light at the end ofthe tunnel yeah, I'm yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
No, I'm curious to learn too, because I know when
we all shared our coming outstories but we had that choice
like basically right, like wekind of all figured out what's
our timing, what's our terms,and to be able to hear, I know
we're going to get into yourstory, but what you went through
because you sounds like didn'thave that choice.
From what I've, heard so far.

(04:40):
I'm learning a lot of thismyself as well today.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
So yeah, yeah, and I have to say and we haven't done
this yet and maybe we shouldhave on other podcasts, but I do
want to advise people that wewill actually talk about really
serious topics.
So trigger warning for anyone,including experiences of being
outed, family hardships andreferences to CSA.
So listener discretion isadvised.

(05:07):
So we're going to get into somedeep stuff.
That is all a part of thisstory.
So are you ready to go Ready?
Okay, so, matt, you are how old?
60.
60.
And you were married.
Give us a little bit of yourquick background Married, I was

(05:27):
married for 35 years.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
I have three beautiful daughters and two
grandsons.
Yeah, that's the quick story.
And how old are your kids?
Grownups 33, 31, 25.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
And so we're sitting now right around may.
Uh, when did this wholeinstance happen?
When?
When were you kind of outed thenight?

Speaker 1 (05:53):
of, or I should say the morning of september 1st uh
of last year you remember downto the dates.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
That's how traumatizing yeah, wow, yeah, I
don't think it'll be somethingthat you forget for sure, and so
it really hasn't been that long.
It's amazing, yeah, where wasthis?

Speaker 5 (06:14):
We're sitting in Dallas.
Are you from Dallas?

Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, I work in Dallas and decided I hadn't been to a
gay bar in like 15 years.
And um decided I hadn't been toa gay bar in like 15 years.
And after a cocktail on dinner.
You know, after dinner my uh,on my own, um had a cocktail and
for some reason I said, youknow, let's go check out the

(06:37):
scene in Dallas, and had youever done that before?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Cause you?
You worked here regularly,right I?

Speaker 1 (06:44):
had never been here regularly.
Right, I had never been here.
No, oh, I had never been.
Um, I hadn't been to a gay baror a gay district in 15 years.
Wow, okay, for some reason Ijust I was under a lot of stress
and I was like you know what,let me um, um, you see if I can
find some fun and fun, yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
Let me have some fun in this, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
So I mean it's when I talk about it, it's still, I
have PTSD.
It was just um.
So anyway, I was on the strip,um, drank too much, much, was at
a couple of bars and on my wayback to my car I was intending

(07:35):
to Uber back to the suburbs, tomy work, work and a complete
stranger kind of bumped into meor asked me a question and we
started chatting and for somereason I um put my code into the
phone to look something up.

(07:57):
Maybe he asked me you know, isthis bar closed?
Or something like that, right?
So anyway, we kept chatting alittle bit and he just grabbed
my phone and ran away with itand he was like around the
corner before I knew whathappened and I said, okay, well,

(08:20):
I lost my phone, I'll figure itout, right, right, well, I lost
my phone, I'll figure it out,right, right?
Well, it took me probably threeor four hours to find my way
back to the suburbs where myhotel was, because you are
nothing without your phone.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
We just had that not long ago.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
I couldn't order an Uber.
I had to drive.
I got lost.
I stopped in a gas station thathad plexiglass windows and the
guy was sleeping behind thewindow and I'm knocking on the
glass saying, hey, can you pointme in the right direction?
So it probably took me threeand a half hours to get back to

(08:58):
my hotel To make a 30-minutetrip.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, no maps go either.
Remember the maps goes.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (09:05):
guys old enough for that.
Or is it just me.
How about the?

Speaker 5 (09:08):
ABC maps.
Maybe it's you.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
You're definitely old enough for the maps go Come on
the book that you used to have,that was ABC maps.

Speaker 5 (09:16):
I don't know what that is either.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
ABC maps.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
I forget the one we used.

Speaker 5 (09:21):
I could go as far back as I could go back to
MapQuest.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
I could go back to.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
MapQuest.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
I remember you would have to go where you were and
you'd be like A 4, here's athere.
How do we get from here tothere?

Speaker 2 (09:32):
I can't imagine being in a city that I didn't know
and have to take highways, likeour highways here in Dallas, all
the way.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
So I took the wrong highways.
I took all the wrong highways.
I was nowhere near where Ineeded to be and just finally
made it to my hotel at five inthe morning and to be this to be
clear.

Speaker 5 (09:52):
Oh, go ahead.
I mean, you're not familiar atall with, you've been to Dallas
for work.
Whether this was the first timein Dallas for work or in Flint,
no I had been.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
the office is in the suburbs, so I had been the
offices in the suburbs so I hadI'd been to the suburbs quite a
bit okay, but had never been todallas and just really my hotel
was down the street from theoffice so I would come in and
just you know, office um, hoteland local whatever yeah, and to
be clear, this guy that came upto you like he was kind of

(10:23):
flirting with you right, like no, no, no, no, it wasn't it
wasn't a gay guy and you knowyou learn a lot in hindsight.
Um, it wasn't a gay guy.
He was like acting drunk andlooking for fun, but in
hindsight he was just a uh, kindof just a street thug.
And again in more hindsight, aprofessional.

(10:45):
He took my phone, wentimmediately to work texting
everybody in my text chain as ifhe was me.
Hey, I lost my phone, I needsome money.
He was into every account on myphone.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
We realized too, and I think we all have a lot of
stories.
Actually, we just had a friendthe other day who was brutally
beaten in the gayborhood down inCedar Springs, and I've heard
countless stories of thathappening as well.
So we all have to be careful.
Even though we're guys, I thinkwe tend to let our guard down.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Also with phones.
Apple will not help you if youdon't know your Apple ID.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
You are fucked, adam knows that.
Like you are, I didn't have theroutine down.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
I didn't know what I was supposed to do.
I didn't have my Apple ID.
I didn't know what I wassupposed to do.
I didn't have my Apple ID.
I didn't remember my Apple IDand by the time I was able to
call Apple and get some answers,he had already changed my Apple
ID and Apple told me that sorry, but that's not your account

(11:59):
anymore, you don't own it and wecan't help you.
Wow, so he was into everything,uh, on my all, everything you
have on your, your bank accountsyour social media, everything.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
So, meanwhile, though , you're at the hotel, you
finally made it home three hourslater.
So what is it?
It was like five 30 in themorning.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yep, I had probably a six 30 flight that morning, um,
which I missed, uh, so I had toreschedule.
Now I'm trying to, I'm using mylaptop to email my wife.
Now, everything you think youwould communicate with without
your phone is out the window.
So I had to email her and again, in hindsight, had no idea that

(12:44):
this guy was communicating withmy children, my friends, my
family, my associates, everybodyin my text chain.
So they were like didn't knowif it was me, didn't know if it
was me emailing, matter of fact,one of my emails he responded
you know he's, uh, I'm at theairport, which is not my

(13:07):
response.
So a little bit of him was liketrying to like I don't know help
, a little bit Like you knowhe's at the airport or something
like that.
It's just very bizarre.
So, yeah, I missed my firstflight.
I had to just rebook and when Igot on the flight you know you
can get Wi-Fi and I could havegot Wi-Fi and like hooked up my

(13:28):
laptop and kept communicating.
I was just exhausted.
I just knocked out for threehours back to home.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
And where is home?

Speaker 1 (13:40):
It's in New Jersey, new Jersey, okay, yeah.
So just knocked out for threehours.
I got to the airport, I'm like,okay, um, I, I gotta use my
laptop again, Like, how am Igoing to get home?
I can't order an Uber.
Um, I heard something similarto my name being paged while I
was on my laptop by the um, youknow, baggage claim area, trying

(14:06):
to figure out how to get home,like trying to email my wife.
She's like do you want me tocome pick you up?
I was like, yes, um, so peoplewere searching for me.
My name was was paged overoverhead.
And yeah, so finally, uh, mywife came.
This is all on my laptop withemails.
I'm like, okay, I'll meet yououtside, you know, gate,

(14:28):
whatever.
She pulled up and so, look, Ihad my story all down.
I had my story all set.
I was at dinner it was a busybar restaurant, somebody must
have seen my code over myshoulders and then swipe my

(14:49):
phone.
I like went to the bathroom and, you know, swipe my phone.
And so I took my phone.
Oh, I didn't even, I didn'teven know my code.
My phone was broken into atthat point was just, my phone
was stolen, right?
So I had my story all set thatmy phone was stolen, right.
So I had my story all set thatmy phone was stolen.
And when I got in the car andmy wife said what's going on and

(15:12):
I started with my story, myphone was stolen.
She said let me have it,there's more.
He's the guy's beencommunicating with the kids and
everybody else.
You know, I literally I'm inthe passenger seat while she's

(15:32):
driving.
I literally like just put myhead in my hands and looked up
and said my life is over.
That's what I said because youknew that.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
She knew at that point that you were down at the
gay bars and how so I could havekept trying to wiggle out of it
you know what I mean because,to be clear, it wasn't your
first time wiggling out of it,right?

Speaker 2 (15:58):
no, it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
And that's more to come.
Yeah, so it wasn't your firsttime wiggling out of it, right?
No, it wasn't, and that's moreto come.
Yeah, so it wasn't my firsttime wiggling out of it.
So I could have wiggled out ofit and said, yeah, I don't know
what he's talking about.
Like guy's nuts right and maybecould have gotten by with that.

Speaker 5 (16:17):
Something seemed different about her.
Ask this time.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
It wasn't so much about her ask.
I was exhausted, not just fromthe night.
How long had I been doing this?
I was exhausted from thesecrets and the lies and the
deception.
I was exhausted, exhausted.

(16:41):
I was like and I had alwayssaid to myself if I get found
out, my life is over.
Like no, no thinking likewhat's after that at all, it was
just my life is over, likeperiod, like because there's a
lot on the line.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
I mean you've got a whole, a lot of blackness,
you've got a whole family,you've got kids, you've got a
career and everything's on theline.
At this point, yeah, you're, atthis point, going right, am I?
Am I making this jump andhoping to god that I survived
this right and I was not everintending to come out of the
closet, uh, uh, ever.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
I couldn't, um, I didn't want to hurt people, I
didn't want to expose myself forbeing a fraud, which is which
is what I was Right, um.
So what was different, as youask, was I was ready to throw in
the towel, I was ready to like,no matter what happened.
I didn't give a shit Like like,like this the charade is over,

(17:41):
I can't, I can't do this anymore.
I can't hide, I can't deceive,I can't lie.
I mean, there's more after thatum, but I, literally over the
next four or five days, justfocused on securing my accounts,
while my wife's fed mesandwiches at the dining room
table.
Well, what did you say to yourwife when she said what's going
on.

Speaker 5 (18:02):
She had to say.
She says, let me have it.
I didn't give her any detail.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
You just stayed quiet .
No, I, I, over the next threeor four days, she, she was
asking questions and I had saidto myself I'm never going to lie
again.
And subsequently in treatment,I learned that I should have
asked her to hold off.
Let's do this with aprofessional.
You know it's called um uhcounseling.
No, it's it's just therapy, notit's the kind of discovery for

(18:35):
this, for the spouse Right, andthat should be handled
professionally.
And I actually suggested thatto her.
I was like, look, can we, canwe get some professional help,
because I I'm not sure I shouldthrow up all over you, right,
I'm not sure that because it's alot for you to go through and
it's also a lot for her to gothrough.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
Yeah, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
I didn't want to hurt her.
I didn't want to right so shewould ask questions over the
next three or four days whileI'm just busily trying to lock
down accounts.
And every question she asked meI answered honestly and I could
tell with every response I gaveher anger and hurt was just

(19:15):
through.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Were they probing questions?
Were they about the past?
Yeah, how long?
How many past?
More details?

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, how long, how many times Mm-hmm, doing what
that's tough yeah.
It's tough.
So after those four or fivedays literally 18 hours a day at
my kitchen table and then, youknow, I got the first thing from
the airport.
We went right to the Applestore and got a new phone and it

(19:45):
wasn't till like two days laterI realized I was like hon did
you did you shut my phone off.

(20:07):
So I went through three days ofhim pouring through and sending
text messages what does that?

Speaker 5 (20:13):
what does that mean?
She shut your number down, butnot your phone, or I don't?

Speaker 1 (20:17):
understand it was she .
In other words, he couldn't usemy number anymore so like text
or call, you could still getinto all you're still, but he
still had like right yeah, soanyway, yeah, number one
suggestion is know your shitlike if you you lose your phone,
just know your apple id andpassword, by the way way I've

(20:40):
lost my phone.

Speaker 5 (20:41):
I've been have a truck in WeHo and had some
random stranger act like he washelping me and I'm like in this
case I'm like puking and drunkand I was a mess, not you.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
I know, oops, was it?
Oops, I did it again.
Wait, was it after Motherload?
Probably we have to take Mattto Motherload.
Oh yeah, that would reallybring him into the community.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
Don't worry, we'll protect you.
Yeah, we have phone leashes.
Now We've learned, we'll teachyou all the tricks.
But yeah, mine wasn't comingout related, but I was, yeah,
totally without a phone.
And I remember like running andasking someone to like can I
log into your find my friendsthing or you know, to be able to
see the location.
And I saw that thing like takenoff three blocks away, like

(21:24):
there was no way I was going tofind my friends.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
If you don't have another Apple device, you can't
use it.

Speaker 5 (21:31):
No, I like, found a stranger and I, but I knew my
Apple ID and I was logged intotheir phone.
So yes, totally agreed, and yougot to know.
Your remember one login toremember.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
People think no big deal.
But without being outed,without as severe as me.
But you're, everything can bestolen from you All your secrets
and all your money.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
And what was this guy saying?
You said he was extorting money.
How much did he extort frompeople and like, who, like, how
embarrassing was it Between meand two or three friends?

Speaker 1 (22:01):
he like eight thousand dollars wow that's
crazy expensive coming out foryou how about it?

Speaker 4 (22:12):
yeah, you can't, I mean try to get it back.
You can't really get it backbecause it's transactional to
him and his friends.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
So well, I, I don't know.
I I know his name, I have, Iknow his name and phone number.
I gave all of this to dallas pd.
They're like what do you wantto report a stolen phone?

Speaker 2 (22:30):
you know what can I tell you?
Like, let's point this out.
And we actually did an episodeabout the disappearances of men
in their 30s at ladybird Lake inAustin, and there's been
another one now.
And I'm just sick and tired ofthese police departments.
They do not care about ourcommunity and I just want to be
really clear about it and theyliterally are like oh, it's

(22:52):
somebody else's problem.
It's gross to me.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I didn't feel like it was a gay thing.
I mean, yes, they knew where myphone was stolen and knew what
happened, but I didn't.
I just felt like it was a bigblack hole of a bureaucracy.
You know what I mean.
Period, you know what I mean.
I didn't feel that it waspersonal or anti-gay or anything

(23:16):
like that.
Just government bureaucraticnightmare or anything like that
Just government bureaucraticnightmare.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
I mean because the way that the cops look at it is
it's literally just a lost phone.
So then the transactional partof the fraudulent part of it,
that's very hard for them.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right, but there's all these websites.
You know there's fraud,cybercrime websites and they
point you to the you know theFBI or whatever website it is to
log it there and it's a bigblack hole there's nobody on the
other side of it.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, how did you find his information?
Um through the transactions oh,got it.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Um, oh yeah, he was transacting with he was
transacting and told them tosend money to this account or
that account is transacting, andtold them to send money to this
account or that account.
Um, so yeah, and I spent.
I spent hours, days trackinghim down, like on every website,
and paying the subscriptions toknow.
Try to figure out who thismotherfucker was.

(24:15):
And he's got a.
He's got a.
He's got a.
Uh rap sheet rap sheet.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Oh well, that's it.
But you know what?
We'll let this one go, butlet's put Martha Stewart in jail
over a $40,000 insider trade.
So that's what pisses me off.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
So I mean we'll, we'll get back to this, but I I
wanted to.
I wanted him to not be alive,just to shut him up.
Every time my phone pingedthose four or five days
afterwards I'd have friends likejoking, like you know, like
jokey joke, and hey, I told himthis and I had um colleagues at

(24:57):
work like engaging him, tryingto catch him.
I had to tell everybody stopfucking communicating with this
guy, just stop.
Everybody wanted to be a hero.
And then others were jokey jokeabout it.
Every time my phone pinged I'mlike, oh my God, what, what next

(25:17):
?
What next?
Who did he tell what to nextnext?

Speaker 2 (25:21):
to be clear, he was saying that you were gay, right,
like he was telling people thathe only said it to my kids okay
, what a nice guy.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
He was just after the money, yeah, um, otherwise.
But my kids were like where'smy dad?
Where's my dad?
And he basically said your,your father isn't, isn't the man
you think he is because theyconfronted him at some point,
right yeah, they were.
They were like got angry withhim over the text.
They were texting me right whowas him?

(25:53):
And they're like where's my dad?
Where's my dad?
Like you're a jerk or whatever,and kind of got into it with
him.
And that's when he said yourfather isn't who you think he is
wow, yeah, he was someplacewhere he shouldn't have been um
so and they all believed it.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
And I have to say like, um, why did they all
believe it?
Believed what well?
They've got this scam artist onthe other end of the phone
saying they're your dad's at agay bars, at the gay bars in
dallas.
Like why did they believe it?

Speaker 5 (26:26):
you know, I gotta say isn't that happen a lot like?
There's just a sense from otherpeople, we and a lot of times
it's acknowledging it forourselves I have issues with my
family sense it was discovery.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
they both saw stuff on my phone or text exchanges
and never talked to each other.
Never talked to me, nevertalked to their mother.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
That's a family to keep that, beat Clint.

Speaker 5 (26:53):
Not anymore in this career, not in ours.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
They held it secret Really In my family, like I have
those.
I had those secrets too,especially with my dad, and I
think I've talked about thatbefore too.
I actually we talked a lotabout this, like I knew stuff
that my dad was doing, that Ijust was.
I would actually clean up afterhim so that my mother would
never know and she's caught himtoo, and uh, I could see how

(27:18):
that would happen for sure sowhat did your daughter say to
you?

Speaker 4 (27:25):
so?

Speaker 1 (27:27):
over those next four or five days.
I tried to keep it hidden frommy daughters so I wasn't gonna
give it up to them.
Okay, kind of foggy about um,but I wasn't ready to, like my
wife knew.
So I try, I kind of tried tokeep up the charade with um, my,

(27:52):
my one daughter, who was localin New Jersey, and, um, I could
tell everything out of my mouth.
She was not buying but waswould accept it and move on and
you know, talk about somethingelse.
Um, so it wasn't until afterthe paperwork was all done, um,

(28:15):
and my wife was just very calmand, like I said, feeding me
sandwiches and you know therewas a barbecue happening.
And she's like feeding mesandwiches and you know there
was a barbecue happening.
And she's like come on, youneed a break, you don't come out
, let's, let's go to thebarbecue or whatever.
And, um, the first one, I waslike no, a barbecue yeah, like a
community barbecue.
No, like a friend of cookoutbackyard, it was a backyard just

(28:38):
to get into the house.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
You're not sitting here like with friends not
planned around this?

Speaker 2 (28:43):
yeah, and just like, come on out no, but like I'm I
mean god bless your wife,because I would be so angry at
you?
I don't know.
So that's just I'm saying no Iget it from the barbecue I love
that she's concerned about youand your well-being and like
let's go to a barbecue no, she,she knew I was, I was a wreck, I

(29:05):
was just I was just.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
I was like this, I was just, wow, a wreck.
And she's like come on, youneed a break.
And she knew I was like workingon important stuff, right, um
so, but anyway, after that wasall like kind of nailed down and
things had calmed down a littlebit.
That was the time where, okay,we have time, me and my wife, to

(29:30):
like deal with this straight ondeal with this year, aside from
the and she basically verycalmly, said I think you should
go live in Arizona, whereas Ihave two other kids out there
and we have a house in Arizona.
Said what do you mean Like?
I was so delusional I was.

(29:51):
She said you're delusional Atone point I forget what we were
talking about.
It was absolutely delusional.
I was like what do you meanLike?

Speaker 4 (30:02):
wellaine knows about that.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
I've been called delusional Debbie by some people
.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
So when it struck me that she wanted me out, I took a
little hissy fit and said, okay, well, I'm going to leave
tonight and started packing bags.
I'm going to stay at a hotel.
And she's like what the fuckare you doing?
She goes I didn't mean tonight.
I said, well, if you don't wantme, I'm leaving.

(30:28):
I like flipped it around on heroh geez, you know I'm leaving.
Like I can't stay here if youdon't want me.
Total gaslighting.
And she laid into me, slammedthe door, left.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Respectfully.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
I mean she, I mean completely, like she was so
pissed off that I flipped itaround on her like for absolute
good reason, and she was texting, and so when she slammed the
door and left, I literally hadthat's when my nervous breakdown
happened.

(31:13):
I just I just fell apart.
I just fell apart and she waslike we were texting, like fuck
you, fuck you, you're going toblame me for doing for, for, for
, uh response, reacting this wayand I was like I'm sorry, I'm
sorry, I'm sorry, please comeback, please come back.
I don't know how to do this.
Like I was on my, I was on myhands and knees, like next to

(31:36):
the bed, like just in a fuckingpile, and she came back and then
my daughter came over and I washysterical.
They were, they were going totake me to like an emergency
room, like literally, likedidn't know what to do with me,
like take me to a mentalhospital or you know so, um, and

(31:58):
still, at this point, your kidshave no idea what's going on so
my, my daughter, my oldestdaughter, came over back.
She said, okay, I'll come back.
She came back with my daughterand my daughter's, like dad,
it's okay, I already knew.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
I already knew we love you oh, that's really nice
so I was gonna say that's got tobe a little bit of a relief.
I mean, mean, there's still alot of trauma, but that's going
to be a little relief of like,okay, my kids aren't running
from me.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Like I was.
I don't know how to explain it,but I was in a state where I
couldn't even digest anythingbeing said to me.
I was just literally, you know,when you're a kid, you're like
what's a nervous breakdown?
Right, you were a neighbor.
Neighbor being taken away in anambulance because of a nervous

(32:48):
breakdown.
I'm like what the hell's that,right?

Speaker 5 (32:50):
Well, that's what I had.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's what I had and I couldn't.
I couldn't digest anything thatwas being said to me.
My other daughter had found outabout a treatment facility in
Arizona because an executive ather company was very public
about what happened to him.
As a kid with, I'll do the codeword CSA.

Speaker 5 (33:19):
I just paused like how did she feel this was
related to your situation?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
because I was also a victim of csa and did your kids
know about this already, or isit coming?

Speaker 1 (33:33):
out during this.
All came out in these five days.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Wow, this is a lot unwrapped, that's I think, but
so yeah wow, and I was confusedabout csa versus my true
sexuality.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Like I, I didn't know how to pull the two apart and
the csa was my excuse, my uh,I'm not gay, you know I was
mixing the two.
Right.
In hindsight again, it wastotal excuse.

Speaker 4 (34:08):
Do you think you were using it as a crutch or do you
think that you actually were?
Like you know what?
I'm really confused on whatthis is.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
No, it's kind of weird Like this is going to
sound so weird, but probablylike 20 years ago, you know,
before the, the platforms, thehookup platforms, before any of
that, there was just but findingeach other somehow, some way, I

(34:40):
was actually in the woods at arest area, basically jerking off
with a dude.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
Happens on the Katy Trail all the time.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
And he asked me.
He said are you out?
And I said no, no, I'm not out.
He goes.
Well, you're.
You're out to yourself.
Let me tell you, I had sixweeks of therapy that him saying

(35:11):
that to me gave me like a freecard to keep.
That rationalized my behavior,my, my awful behavior, because I
was saying to myself okay, well, I'm out to myself, I deserve
this.
Like you know, I'm, I'm gay tomyself.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
Um, so this is our guy.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
What?
What's the off?
You're calling it Awfulbehavior.
What are you classifying as the?
To do whatever he wants, I mean, but is that the awful behavior
, or is it that it's a secret,or you're knowing how you're
treating others in the process,or like how does?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
that.
So the awful behavior inhindsight, while it was
happening it was no harm, nofoul.
If nobody knows about it, I'mentitled to this and as long as
I don't bring home a disease andsuper careful, I'm entitled to
this.
Right, you gotta remember.

(36:10):
He's also married, Is your?
Yeah?
With married kids.
So the awful part of it againin hindsight, I was just so
fucked up I was cheating on mywife.
Now again, another excuse isyeah, but I wasn't cheating with
a woman on my wife.
I actually said that to her inthose four or five days.

(36:31):
She's like are you fuckingdelusional?

Speaker 4 (36:37):
I wasn't hooking up with a woman.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
I felt like you know she would be, you know, I
thought that would help her.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
She looked like a man .
It's amazing to me and wetalked in our coming out stories
that the rationalizations youmake when you are coming out to
yourself and I think about allthe gay chat rooms I was in and
all the guys even when I had arelationship in Argentina

(37:05):
overseas and then came back andwas with a woman after that, I
still made rationalizations.
It was like, well, it was aphase.
I'm over it now, right, I thinkyou can rationalize yourself
into I'm actually not gay.
It was a phase and especially ifyou have a lot to lose, I could
see how that is and I thinkthat's why I find your story so

(37:26):
important is, I think there's abig misunderstanding, because we
had a lesbian friend of ours onwho had a husband and she just
came out and proud and some ofthe comments we got on that one
was oh, how could she do that tothat guy?
But again, she kept convincingherself she wasn't gay, like
everything that she did, eventhough it screamed.

(37:48):
I'm a lesbian and you knoweverything I did screamed I was
gay, and you too.
It's amazing how you canrationalize yourself into like,
well, it's not what it seems.
You know, I'm past it now,right.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
So there were also two or three events along the
way in our marriage that to mostit would seem obvious what was
going on, and I kind ofexplained them away each time
and at one point went to atherapist and blamed the CSA.

(38:22):
You know, in other words, aftera few weeks of therapy I hate
it to sound like this, but I'dcome home from therapy and my
wife would be how'd it go, how'dit go, how'd it go?
Every time I came home fromtherapy, like I was thinking

(38:43):
like here's my chance to likejust fucking come out with it,
right, and she would just behow'd it go, how'd it go, how'd
it go?
And I'm like, yeah, it was theCSA, it's all good, we pulled it
apart.
I just couldn't, just couldn't,I just couldn't hurt her, which

(39:06):
is so fucked up, you know.
Like now she's like why didn'tyou tell me then or then, or
then or then?

Speaker 4 (39:14):
Well, again, I think it goes back to a point of life
and this is for every day and,man, there's got to be a
breaking point.
There's a breaking point whereyou sit there and say I've had
enough of living this liablelife and now I've already, I've
been in this so much now that Ijust I have to, I have to cut
this off and just be true toyourself, and it's one of the
hardest things that anybody willever go through.

(39:36):
And there's people out therethat are probably going to watch
this tour in the closet athousand percent and say I'll
never do it.
But you will come to a point inyour life where you are going
to say enough's, enough, I'm notdoing this anymore.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
But to your point, you still felt like you weren't
gay.
Right, I was very confused andif you're not out to yourself
and you don't think you're gay,like how can you?

Speaker 1 (39:58):
so I kind of knew, I was gay, but like, like, let's,
let's just.
In other words, adam, like toyour point, there was no way, I
was never going to come out, nomatter if I thought I was gay or
didn't think I was gay, like itjust wasn't going to happen
because I didn't want to hurtpeople around me Right.

(40:21):
Yeah, I just I was too deep.
I was in too deep.
Little did I know that two ofmy kids already knew.
So I mean, I guess what I wouldsay to others who are in the
closet is you're not doinganybody a favor, because, you
know, in therapy it wasexplained to me that it's like

(40:42):
it's like holding a beach ballunderwater it's very true.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
It's trying to come up.
You can't, you can't do itforever, right?

Speaker 1 (40:51):
um?
I never would have volunteered.
So you talk about me being.
I wasn't courageous at all.
I was a coward.
Um, I, I was, I was, I wascaught.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
What would you have done if your kids would have sat
you down and said look, we knowyou're gay and we still love
you?

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Would you probably still have denied it.
We've actually had briefconversations about that and
we're all like I don't know.
I don't know, like what wouldyou have.
I would have said what wouldyou have?
I would have said what wouldyou have wanted me to do to the
kids, right, and they would havesaid I don't know, like I don't
know, if you want to, I wantyou to hurt mom, let's just keep
it a secret.
Or they, you know theyobviously didn't come to me and

(41:33):
say fuck you Right, rat you outbecause it's a double-edged
sword.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
if you're sitting there with your kids and your
kids are like, hey, we knowyou're gay, and then you're
sitting there going what if Isay, yes, my wife's gonna find
out and I'm going through adivorce?
But then if you flip it andyour wife's the one sitting
there saying you know, hey, Iknow you're gay, then you're
sitting there, going I have allmy kids and like, this is going
to change all the dynamic withmy kids.

(41:59):
So it's a very double edgedsword that you you know it's a
tough thing to go through.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
So look, I'm saying I never would have.
I never would have come outvoluntarily.
I was literally ripped out ofthe closet in a very violent way
.
At the end of the day, this guydid me a favor and I think he
did everybody a favor.
He did even my wife, as much asshe's hurting and in pain and

(42:27):
fucking hates me right now, andmy kids, who are now going
through a phase of yeah, I don'twant to hear about your happy
gay life and like there's phaseswe have yet to go through.
But in the end I'm absolutely100 convinced, a hundred percent
convinced, that everybody isbetter off.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I'll agree.
I agree with that.
But I also have to give you alittle credit too.
You did come out, because I Imean you said it here.
But then, even with adam and I,when we were talking to you
before this, you said like Ifinally realized, like it was
time, like I'm not.
You could have lied, you couldhave kept the lie going, and

(43:08):
everybody could have accepted itagain.

Speaker 5 (43:10):
So exhausted you talked about what, how many
years of keeping that, trying tohold up each one for 35 years.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
But you know, since I was, you know, 11 when the csa
started, um, and I was told youknow, you know, you're not a
faggot, right?
You're not a homo, right?
Who?
Was this you like girls, right?
I don't want to say who it was,so it was like yeah, no, of

(43:41):
course not.
You know, no, I'm not gay.
You know, I have a girlfriend.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
So suppressing that from a very early age, yeah, and
something that's been on mymind.
Mind, though, too, because Imean suppressing that, but like
that, you talked about thephases.
Um, you know you need to gothrough and this is all fresh
but the fact that you have somuch of a life before the moment

(44:07):
that this guy ripped this ripripped you out of the closet and
you have that life that youhave to mourn yourself and be
able to let I mean that's itdied, and to to realize that is
traumatic and but like know thatit is gonna.
It has to take some time and youhave to have that you hit the

(44:30):
nail on the head.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
I mean mean, there's a mourning process and I
probably skipped too much of it.
I feel myself kind of gettingback into the mourning, like
after the novelty of, oh hey,I'm gay and you know, let's go
out on the strip and be me and Idon't have to worry about being
caught or whatever.
I'm kind of getting back intothat phase of um, sadness, um,

(44:54):
and yeah, the whole family ismourning, the family we're not
anymore.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
So but it will get better.
It will get better because,especially like with like with
my family was very I don't wantto say strange, but like it
definitely put a wedge in there,but it it has brought us a
little shirt together in the endand it's and it's yeah, it will
come back around thank god forfather time.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yes, yeah, yes it um my mother called it also a
morning and I thought that wasthe best thing I've ever heard
in all of the coming out stories.
I've heard um, because so manypeople say like, oh, you know
I'm coming out.
And everybody've heard Um causeso many people say like, oh,
you know I'm coming out andeverybody just has to accept it,
and I'm so glad you're lettingyour family have space and not
just being like, ah, just, youhave to accept it, cause I think

(45:41):
a lot of people in communityexpect that like even the 90
year olds and 80 year olds thatlike just don't get it.
You know, like my grandmothertook 14 years to accept it, and
I think that's totally fine.
And I and like my mom said shesaid it's just like I mourned
the death of a dream.
When you were born, I had adream, I had this whole idea of

(46:01):
what you were going to be, andjust because one thing died, it
didn't mean something elsewasn't born.
So I think that's what'sexciting about part two of this
is we're talking about kind oflike what you're starting to
experience at the birth of newthings.
But your family's also stillstruggling kind of with the
death, and so are you, and Ithink that's something that
people need to realize.
It's a natural process of this.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
But in the end, I think truthfulness, being true
to yourself and being true tothe ones you love, there's just.
You know, I always said tomyself am I, am I gonna, on my
deathbed?
Am I gonna, am I gonna keepthis secret?
You know what I mean I was, andmy kids actually cried over

(46:48):
that.
They were like, wow, you'vebeen like stifling this for all
this time.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
It's tough.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah, did you find a lot of help in therapy?
You said you went to a facilitywhich I think you told us was
not cheap.
No, I think Adam was about tohave a heart attack when he
talked about it.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
And how did you find?
This was the, the place thatyour daughter helped you find
yeah, so we got part of thechoosing this.
Yeah, well, again I wascatatonic.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
I was like in the um, I was rock bottom, right, rock
bottom.
If you don't know what rockbottom is, I know exactly what
rock bottom is.
You can imagine what rockbottom is until you're there,
you don't.
You don't know what it is.
I was at rock bottom.

(47:39):
So, anyway, my daughter foundthe facility because an
executive head of her companyhad been there for the CSA.
I write the check, have to wirethe money.
There I have a conversation.
They're like, yeah, you qualifyfor the services.
Like, yeah, I qualify for themto take my $70,000.

(48:00):
Right, um, I need to go totherapy, just for that.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
So I was paying a lot for therapy.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
So I get on a plane you know um and coach probably
yeah.
So I get on a plane you know umand coach probably yeah.
So I get on a plane and, uh,did it include?
Did it include travel?

Speaker 5 (48:18):
yeah, no, fuck, no, oh my gosh they.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
They offered to send a van to the airport to pick me
up at least they did that.
How nice of them.
I declined that.
My daughter drove me.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Oh my gosh, I would be like for that much money, I
want to be in first class, Iwant to be pampered.
I better have drinks.
What?

Speaker 5 (48:39):
was this in Alabama, so is it passages?
No, let me tell you guys.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Like I'm so mixed.
I could go on for another threehours about this facility and
about the treatment.
I could go on for another threehours about this facility and
about the treatment, totallylike good over here, bad over
here, good over here, bad overhere, like I'm pissed about it
here and I'm grateful for itthere, and at the end I can't
pick it apart.
Right At the end, it's what Ineed.

(49:07):
I needed to be a way, I neededto think.
I needed people to help methink.

Speaker 5 (49:20):
But anyway, my first night, at this place which was
kind of regimented and it wasnot a country club and nothing
like the pictures.
So this isn't like the brochure.
Could you imagine the Olympic?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
sized pool was, like you know, a pot, you know a hot
tub.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, basically a hot tub.
My friend went to one of thesefacilities for another problem
and uh, and he thought there washorse therapy and there really
wasn't we did have horse therapyoh, you did have horse therapy,
okay well, at least you had thered verse in

Speaker 1 (49:49):
so the first night there I was like yeah, whatever,
like, like, and everybody waslike um, what do you call it?
Come to the group, submityourself like give up, like, um,
what do you call it?
um commitment, just surrender,your surrender right I walk

(50:11):
through those doors and likefucking, fix me.
Like I'm I'm surrendered, I'mrock bottom.
Like fix me right, I wascatatonic.
The first evening group circle.
There's 24 or 5 guys at anygiven time going through the

(50:31):
program.
Who's all men, all men.
I hear the first guy start Hi,my name is Larry, I'm a sex
addict.
And here's what I do.
Hi, my name is Bill, I'm a sexaddict.
Blah, blah, blah Down the line.
By the time they got to thefifth person sex or porn or

(50:56):
masturbation addiction, but itwas sex addiction.

Speaker 4 (51:00):
That's when you're like I'm in the wrong group, I'm
at the wrong place.
Have you?

Speaker 2 (51:04):
guys.
Seen the out-of-towners withGoldie Hawn and what's-his-face
where they literally go andthey're in a church like trying
to get food.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I was like sex addicts.
I was like where the fuck am I?

Speaker 5 (51:17):
Like no, you didn't ask for it, you didn't say hey
take me to.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
I had no fucking clue , none, wow, now I didn't, I
didn't like fight it because,like, that was the common thread
with everybody.
But there were other, you know,there was drug and alcohol
addiction.
That was kind of a commonthread and I had, I had,
throughout my life, acted out insexually inappropriate ways.

(51:45):
So there was a little bit oflike OK, a little bit of like
okay, um, but again, in the end,while I and I do not consider
or ever in my history have beena sex addict, um the time away,

(52:06):
and the therapist I had, who was, um, therapist I had, who was
lesbian Again in hindsight shewas trying to like Coax me out
of the closet and I was like,all through treatment, I was
like no, like you know, so youwere still denying being gay.
It wasn't until two monthsafter the treatment when I was

(52:28):
like Fuck, am I kidding?
How long was treatment?
Six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, no.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
Yeah, I've started treatment facility.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
What are you going to treat?
You're just going to yell ateverybody.
You get intrigued.

Speaker 5 (52:48):
You're just going to yell at everybody.
I'm curious how I have someonewho's very close to me and
similar story as you and aroundthe same age, married with kids
and came out and he was alsosent to a facility like this and
so also a victim of CSA that Idon't know.
Okay, Also a victim of CSA thatI don't know.

(53:10):
Okay, Equated the you know,coming out or discovering
yourself as homosexual or gay,or you know those experiences
automatically, you know, shipthem off to a sex addiction
treatment place.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Like I'm just I was fascinated.
But to be clear, though, that'snot what your daughter was
trying to do here.
She just knew a good facilityand she knew that you had.
She had just heard that you hadhad this traumatic experience
as a child, right?
So she wasn't saying dad's asex addict, she's just trying to
get a chance as a matter offact, that guy was in a
different program than I was in.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
He wasn't in the exact same program.
The one that she similar, yeah,but I wasn't like, hey, what
program were you in?
But I was asking all the nursesand therapists I'm like, hey,
do you know this guy's name?
Like, do you know so-and-so.
They're like, hmm, um, and thenafterwards, so cool, afterwards
, um, I met him and talked aboutmy time there and it's like,

(54:14):
and all these guys, these, these24 guys, at any given time, I
have probably a handful of theseguys that are brothers forever
who did awful stuff and had, andprobably still do have, uh,
awful, um, you know, addictionsand behaviors.
But to be able to talk tosomeone so openly, and this guy

(54:44):
I just met him after treatment,met him for lunch, the detail
that we both got into on whatour issues were, like we're just
bonded, right, um, so that'swhat that treatment facility it
was like, hey, we, we can sayanything to each other, we're
brothers, that's awesome yeah,that's awesome, but what did you

(55:04):
learn most about yourself?
and that I think what reallyhurts me the most is I was so
fucking entitled.
I went through it.
Like, when I was in, I was like, wait a minute, was that me?
Did I fucking do that for allthis time?
Like, did I really do that, didI?
And, even worse, when I wasdoing all that, I had no guilt

(55:28):
because I had the card.
I had the card from the dude inthe woods You're out to
yourself.
And I literally turned aroundand like God, like I did that,

(55:49):
like that was me, like lying andcheating gaslighting the fuck
out of my wife and my familylike all those years.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
What were the things that you confronted?
That was the revelation for me.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Like I was a fucking fraud, yeah, and all the tests
were like you have no fuckingself-esteem, you have no this,
no that.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
I was rock bottom, just a pile of fucking rubble.
Was this normally when you?

Speaker 1 (56:17):
would just be like out on business trips and stuff,
yeah, um, yeah, I mean whereveryou find the opportunity and
whenever it was very sporadicand, um, you know, I was i% this
, you know, the, the, thebusiness executive, the, the
great father, the great husband,the provider, 98%, that.

(56:40):
And hey, I'm entitled to thisother 2%.
Who's it going to hurt?
Right?
So it wasn't, it wasn't like alot and it was kind of like
okay'm stressed, I'm and I'mentitled to this.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
I'm gonna go treat myself right that the acting out
wasn't a lot.
I feel like I don't know theway I'm hearing like the two
percent is the acting out onsomething that might actually be
a huge percentage of you, morethan the 2%.
So inside that actually didfeel very heavy.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
I thought I was so good at compartmentalizing.
I was a stress ball In thelater year or two.
My family they could see I wasjust stressed out and not happy

(57:37):
and then like to be clear, like,were you like going to?

Speaker 2 (57:41):
you weren't going to gay bars, but you like go to
cruising spots, and so I mean,what's fascinating about your
story to me in the, in the worldof grinder and these apps,
which is kind of a newer thing,like, how did this evolve?

Speaker 1 (57:53):
like so, I thought about this.
So in the earlier days it was alot of.
It was cruising rest areas orwhatever, gyms or whatever were
you a lot lizard a, what, a,what a lot lizard.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
What's that he's always got?
He's always got some weirdcountry thing from maryland?
No, I think is that a truckerthing where you yeah, it's
called a lot lizard free, wereyou like?

Speaker 1 (58:21):
a truck stop you go to a truck stop and like oh well
, but anyway so he's like andthenr with you know, hookups
here and there and, yes,obviously on business trips in
the last three or four years,like I didn't want random
hookups and I had three or fourfriends that were I guess you'd

(58:45):
call them regulars and they feltlike friends.
Right In hindsight it was afriendship always based on sex,
right, but it felt so muchbetter than hookups and I really
like I didn't even want to, Ididn't even want to go on Grindr
, so in the end it wasn't.
I wasn't looking for sex, I wasmore looking for someone I

(59:08):
could talk to and be open aboutwho I am, and it always kind of
had to involve sex becausethat's kind of the only reason
they wanted to be my friend,right reasons.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
So, yeah, um, and it's so, not about sex now, yeah
like it's weird, do you stilltalk to any of those guys?
Um one I do, yeah, interestingby the way, I love a regular.
I I actually one of the thingsI hate about when the hookup

(59:45):
apps came out.
I just used to have regularsall the time in dallas.
That was great just like it's,just like the boy tornado, but
they were just regulars and yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
And I kind of know who they are, what they do, how
much they sleep around and youknow on grinder, you know the
aspect where it's like you know,come just, you know, I'm your
cum dump.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I'm your cum dump.
I'm like yeah, no, I'm not.
That is a definite no.
So you wouldn't be hitting upAdam on a grinder then, because
that's basically his grinder.
Oh, I'm sorry, that's yoursniffies profile.
That's your sniffies profile,adam sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I'm no, I'm no prude, but I guess it's.
It's not all about sex, it'sjust so little about sex.
It aston's just so little aboutsex.
It astonishes me now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Did you feel like therapy really helped you break
through a lot of your challenges?
And by the time you were out,after six weeks, you're in this
new world, and that's kind ofwhat we're going to talk about
in our next part.
What was that like?
Were you cured?
Obviously not cured.
We're not talking about likeconversion therapy here, but

(01:00:56):
like, did you feel like youweren't at breakdown status?
And then, what did you feellike like when you were let out?
So, and what did you do?
Did you go back with your wife,or you with your daughter?

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
no again.
So much in hindsight.
So my first call with my wifein therapy was like you're
allowed your first phone calllike three weeks into it, Like
no phone, no outside contact.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
You don't get contact .
Adam, I have never been totherapy.
I've had plenty of friends.
Am I the only one?
Have you had friends go away?
Oh okay, it's just me continue.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Yeah, so yeah and maybe some is like wow, part of
me is like wow, I went away likeyeah, geez, in a flick.
By the way, matt, there aremany times to be to be clear.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
There are many times where I've like I'm gonna check
myself into the hospital becauseI don't want my phone to bing.
I don't want anyone to talk tome.
There's many a times where I'velike I'm going to check myself
into the hospital because Idon't want my phone to bing.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
I don't want anyone to talk to me.
There's many a times where Iwant to check you into yeah for
sure.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I mean there are times where life becomes a lot
and you just are like look, Ijust need to go away.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
I mean I can tell you it'll probably happen to me at
some point and I told my boss,who was the CEO of the company
and I run North America.
I couldn't even talk to him.
I emailed him and said hey, Igot to duck out for a few weeks.
I mean a lot of pain.
Um, he was fucking amazing,amazing.

(01:02:26):
He said I love you.
He got so much pressure fromthe board of directors.
I found out afterwards likewhat the fuck?
Like?
You know the guy who's runningNorth America.
You don't know what he's doing,what he you know what's going
on and it it seemed like youknow a mental health issue.
Um, just doesn't, doesn't cutit.

(01:02:47):
Like if I had a massivecoronary.
Doesn't cut it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Like if I had a massive coronary, everybody I
would have had flowers sent tomy hospital.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yeah, um, mental health is very different.
Um, yeah, so, and I don't thinkit's intentional, but it's like
wait a minute, our fuckingexecutive is not up for you is
weak oh, they're talking aboutthat because they don't know the
situation.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
What's that bullshit?

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
I mean, they have no idea what you're actually going
through but if my boss was ableto say no, he had a massive
heart attack, everyone wouldhave been fine, but obviously it
was a mental health issue.
He didn't know any detailaround it, right?
But yeah, no, um, that doesn'tfly the same as a, as you know,
a heart attack.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
A heart attack right and as someone who's worked as
hard as you have and and managepeople and stuff, like I mean I
know, because like that's kindof like my history it is it's
exhausting and you eventuallymentally get exhausted and there
is going to be there is abreaking point for everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
And work was my escape from like all this stuff,
like that's where I put all myenergy, yeah, when you're.
You know what I mean.
So they were, they werebenefiting from it all this time
, but only so much I could take,um, and then the event happened
so, yeah, it's good that yougot that space.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I'm glad that there was someone there for you.
I mean, I've actually had areally amazing executive that
did the same thing for me and Iwas like thank god, I mean, it's
the first time in my life, butit just doesn't happen often.
I think it's very much a usthing, um, but it is you know
kind of what it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So wow, that was like sointense, so heavy that was a

(01:04:39):
short version that's a shortversion.
Can you believe that?
I mean, I have to say, matt,your story is super incredible
and also, I just think, likereally good for people, because
because I think one of thethings that is a misconception
is that everybody's out now.
You know, our community is sowelcoming and the country is so

(01:05:01):
welcoming that you know it'sjust okay to be K, but there are
so many people that have beenstuck or are not ready to come
out to themselves.
There's just so manycircumstances and we have to be
really respectful of everybody'sindividual story absolutely,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
And there, look, I was with them, I was amongst
them, right, all of these peoplein the closet, um, so there's a
lot of them.
Um, so there's a lot of them.
Yeah, so you know there's a lotof them.
I was in the in the closet club.
We all shared the secret Um, soI don't know if I, if I, if I

(01:05:49):
can help anyone like to learnbefore, after, and then we're
going to talk about after Um.
That that's why I'm here, is Idon't feel special for what I've
been through or what, what I'vedone, um, but if I had a little
more insight earlier on, um, Iwouldn't have had to be ripped
out of the closet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
I would have figured out a plane Awesome.
Yeah, I think it's all aboutresources too, and you kind of
hope to write a book, probablyright.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
I would love to.
I mean, if there's a purposebehind it, if I can really nail
down that purpose, and I think Iknow the purpose.
But yeah, I would love to writea book.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
I mean, I think you definitely have a purpose and
you have such a great story andI'm loving what we're going to
talk about in part two of thisbecause it's actually kind of
like the more positive stuffwhere this was like the more
heavy part of it.
yeah and we'll be back at parttwo with one night stand diet
but you know, just, I think forme, like to your point, like I

(01:06:47):
just don't think people knowthat there are resources in
their community, and I think Imean, the Trevor Project is a
huge resource out there and it'sprobably one of the biggest
well-known.

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
I have no clue what that is Really.
So, yeah, trevor Project is acounseling where it's other gay
people that will actually be apart of the Trevor Project and
it's like for people who are inthe closet, who are having a
hard time getting coming out ofthe closet or have been vacated,
like their parents kicked themout of the house.
They help them through all ofthat stuff yeah, huge, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
So what I'm saying is when I was on the other side of
the wall no clue what that wasright so in other words um.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
The marketing needs to step up in that department to
help people understand what'sout there.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
By the way, I'm going to be very honest with our gay
organizations.
They do need to step up,because we talk about so many
things and our gay organizationshave tons of money.
The Trevor Project is literallythe number one donated to
organization during Gay Prideand I think like they should
really make sure that they'redoing the outreach.

Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
I think.
But I think the hardest thingis trying to get that community
that they don't realize how toget their hands around people
who are in the closet, how toreach out to them.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Trevor.
In other words, Trevor has tobe found.
Yes, they have to be visible.

Speaker 5 (01:08:11):
Like I have to be.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
They're not be found.
Yes, they have to be visible.
They have to be.
They're not going to recruitpeople.
They have to be found Right bypeople who want.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
People who are looking, people who are gay,
know about it, but people whodon't, who are not gay, have no
idea.
It's like a 14-year-old tryingto get driver's ed, like you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Just don't understand it because you've ever been
through it, unless you havesomebody to walk you into it
yeah, and that's part of this,like telling this story, and
another organization that I'm ahuge fan of it actually really
helped my mom and my familyduring my coming out was p flag,
which is um parents, familiesand friends of lesbians, gays
and um.
They offer a ton of support andcounseling as well.

(01:08:49):
And then I I have to say, likeone of my biggest unlocks when
it comes to resources for thecommunity, recently out people
or people thinking about itthere's always a local gay
organization.
Here in Dallas we have theResource Center.
They offer therapy that iseither free or like 15 bucks a
session.
That is super great, and thenthey also have medical resources

(01:09:13):
and a bunch of other stuff, butevery single well, like most
city most cities.

Speaker 5 (01:09:18):
I mean there's a lot of, yeah, rural areas.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
If you have people out, you know, not in the large
cities that might not have asmany resources and that's even
tougher he will go ahead andpost a link to RAINN in the
comments as well, which also hasa hotline for CSM at
1-800-656-HOPE, and they alsohave resources as well for

(01:09:44):
nationwide help as well.
So the next episode is your newbeginning and embracing the
community, which is somethingthat you and I talked about, and
I'm really excited for you andthe future.
So don't forget to subscribe toCoffee with Gaze.
I mean, this has been a greatepisode.
I really, really enjoyed it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
So tune in for the next episode, cheers.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Cheers.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers, matt, thank you fortelling your story.
We really appreciate it.
It means a lot.