May 6, 2026 • 45 mins
Based on an article that Elizabeth wrote recently, Vicki and Elizabeth sat down to talk about the importance of transparency in conversations with your student. Elizabeth brings her LD expertise and discusses how to help your student understand their disabilities and why this understanding can help them advocate for themselves and have more confidence. As she often does, Vicki sees this advice as important for all students (with and without disabilities) so we discuss the importance of the language parents use, the amount and type of support they provide, and how to encourage students to advocate for themselves. You know your student’s needs best, but we encouraged parents to have direct and meaningful conversations with their student.
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SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already incollege, this podcast is for
you.
You'll find food for thought andinformation about college and
about navigating that delicatebalance of guidance,
involvement, and knowing when toget out of the way.
(01:24):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
We are the podcast that talksabout all kinds of things that
have to do with being a collegeparent, being the parent of a
student who is thinking about orabout to head to college, and
sometimes students who aregraduating from college.
Just about anything you canthink of, we try to touch on it.
(01:59):
My name is Vicky Nelson, and Iam here today with one of my
co-hosts, Elizabeth Hamblett.
I am a professor ofcommunication at a small liberal
arts college, and I am also anacademic advisor.
And so I work with students,college students every day.
And maybe even more importantly,I am the parent of three
(02:23):
daughters who have gone tocollege and who've all graduated
and we all survived.
So that's the perspective that Icome from.
And I'm going to let Elizabethintroduce herself.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Well, we're grateful you survived, Vicki.
SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
Yeah, thank goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Um, Elizabeth Hamblett.
I am a college learningdisability specialist and the
author of Seven Steps to CollegeSuccess: A Pathway for Students
with Disabilities.
I always want to put the colonin there when I say the title.
Uh I too am the uh parent of twocollege graduates.
(02:59):
Um, and you know, the other partof my time outside of the
university work is spent tryingto uh educate parents and K-12
professionals about the changesat college.
And that is a little bit of alead into the conversation
today.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Yeah, um this was my idea.
I'll take credit or blame, asdepending on how it goes.
Um, but Elizabeth just wrote uhan article that I sometimes I
stumble on on these things thatuh really made an impression on
me.
(03:37):
Um, and it was called TheImportance of Transparency in
College Preparation for Studentswith Disabilities.
And what I just wanted to do wastake off the with disabilities
because that seems to be theapproach I often take.
Um, that really it was about theimportance of transparency in
(04:00):
college preparation forstudents.
And Elizabeth's field, ofcourse, is to talk about
students with disabilities, andthat that was really important
and a lot of good informationthere.
But as I kept reading thearticle, I kept thinking, well,
yeah, but this applies to allstudents, to all students.
So I thought what we could do isjust sort of unpack this article
(04:22):
a little bit and some of thethings that Elizabeth um talked
about.
And if you have a student withdisabilities, you absolutely,
you know, want to be hearingthis.
And if you have a student whodoes not have disabilities, you
absolutely want to be hearingthis because you know, with a
few little tweaks, it reallyapplies to all students and this
this idea of transparency.
(04:44):
So I wanted to start by justwe're not going to read the
article to you, but I I justwanted to read the first
sentence of the article to kindof give a give a sense of where
we are.
So Elizabeth says, when studentswith disabilities transition to
college, they'll needself-knowledge in order to
(05:07):
register for accommodations,figure out how to study and work
effectively, and seek help whenneeded.
Excuse me.
And in that, I really hear somany of the themes that we talk
about all the time.
Um, and you know, neurotypicalstudents may not need to
register for accommodations, butthey certainly do need to figure
(05:30):
out how to study and workeffectively.
And help seeking is a huge issueas well.
So I thought let's start.
Um, I'll put Elizabeth on thespot um and and say, well, what
do we mean by transparency?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Well, uh what we mean is, I mean, you did put me
on the spot.
Okay.
I did.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
You used the word.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
I'm gonna I'm gonna punt it and say that uh the
transparency piece was umsomething that came to me
through somebody else's podcast.
So I am a fan and subscriber tothe Tilt Parenting podcast.
Um my my friend uh DeborahRieber um is a longtime um
(06:16):
podcaster.
She's the author of uhDifferently Wired, a Parent's
Guide to Raising an AtypicalChild with Confidence and Hope.
And um a few years ago, uh herchild was um, you know, moving
through their high school years,and she talked, she did an
episode about um, you know,talking to that student about
(06:38):
their needs and about the thingsthat had been, you know, done to
support them.
And it really struck me becauseum there are there are a couple
of different things.
Um, there are there is talk inmy field of the college uh
disability services fieldamongst colleagues about
students who sometimes um cometo their offices, um, or the
(07:03):
parents, I should say, approachtheir offices and say, my
student needs accommodation, um,but they've never seen their
paperwork and they don't knowwhat their disability is, and I
don't want you to tell them.
And that is not a commonoccurrence, but it certainly
does come up.
And that really strikes me as,you know, depriving a student of
a student of really crucialself-knowledge.
(07:26):
Um, and we that's later in thein the article and we can talk
about it, but um there aresupports that um students
receive that that may mask theeffect of their disability uh on
their functioning and theyachieve a certain level of
academic achievement, um butwith with supports that may not
(07:51):
be available to them later orthat don't that are in place
instead of a focus on buildingtheir skills.
And so um there are lots ofwonderful parenting writers and
podcasters talking about this,and I just thought it was worth
talking about because part ofwhat you know we also talk about
(08:13):
in my work is those, and Imentioned it, the accommodations
that students don't uh typicallyget at the college level.
And so when we are bolsteringstudents' academic achievement
in the high school by providingcertain supports, what we're
doing is setting them up forreal change at the college
(08:34):
level.
And I understand the reluctanceto pull certain things away, um,
but it can leave a studentfeeling really, you know,
unprepared for the collegeenvironment.
So I'm not sure I did such agreat job of explaining what
transparency is, but let's let'skeep going.
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
Yeah, no, I think I think that helps.
And you know, you're you'retalking about it in terms of of
students not understanding theirown um disabilities, um, but and
the and the college supports,the high school supports, sorry,
(09:10):
um, setting them up for successin high school, but not
necessarily preparing them forcollege.
And I think, again, I keep goingback to the more than
neurotypical students becausethose are the ones I see in in
my classroom every day.
And, you know, I'm thinkingabout all of the things that we
do as parents to support themand keep them successful in high
(09:31):
school, but is that reallypreparing them for college?
And I mean things like wakingthem up in the morning and
helping them get up since theyturn the alarm clock off and you
know, go back to sleep, or umwhen they forget something at
school, we we run down and if wecan and and drop it off, or um,
you know, we reach out to theteacher and and have a
(09:52):
conversation rather than sayingto the student, you know, you
all of those things, everythingwe do, I think it's worth us
examining what we're doing tosupport our student.
We we want to support ourstudents, but where does support
end and setting them up for notbeing able to do it themselves
(10:13):
later?
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
And if I could finish that thought, support
them in what?
Support them to to get to whatgoal.
And so I think that's you knowwhat we're talking about.
Now, you know, with regard thisagain, this the the the germ of
this idea came from Debbie'spodcast episode about, you know,
we and and and I sometimes uhpreface my remarks when I give a
(10:39):
presentation by saying, I'mgoing to use the word disability
um in this talk or in this pieceof writing, because um in order
to be eligible foraccommodations at the college
level, it has to be adisability.
It is the Americans withDisabilities Act and Section 504
of the Rehabilitation Act of1973 is about students with
(10:59):
disabilities.
Um, and so you know, there issome uh well-meaning language
that people use, like uhneurodivergent and uh learning
differences, and these are allmeant to, you know, provide a
much more positive framing.
And I'm not trying to saythere's anything inherently bad
(11:21):
about that.
Um, but it um at some pointstudents need to know is this
truly just you know a learningdifference?
And you know, there are thingsI'm kind of good at and things
I'm not as good at, or is ittruly a disability?
And in in the blog post, youknow, there were some quotes
from a qualitative study thatwas done about 12 years ago now,
(11:43):
I think.
And, you know, one of thestudents that they spoke to said
that she did not know whatlearning difference meant, and
that, you know, she could haveregistered with the disability
services office, but she kind ofdidn't think that that was
something she needed to do.
Um, and she had really beenill-prepared for explaining
herself or understanding herselfwhen she got to college.
(12:06):
So, you know, that is maybe veryspecific to the disability
world, but if we try to pull thelens out a little bit more
broadly, you know, what do youthink is language parents may be
using with their students thatsort of masks what's you know
what the reality is?
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Right.
And so it it uh it it it comesback to us, I think, thinking
about what we do, right?
Thinking about how we talk toour students about those things,
um, and being open.
Uh you know, it it makes methink there was there was a I I
haven't answered your questionabout what I think about.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
I did notice that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
Yeah, I would maybe I'd be a good politician, I
don't know.
Um, but because I'm not sure Ihave an answer of specific
things, but yeah, it it becauseit's also personal, it depends
on your relationship with yourstudent, and it depends on what
when you look at yourself, howare you supporting your student
and you know what how are youtalking to your student about
(13:11):
things?
And I I think one of the areasthat this transparency is so
important um also has to do withsome of the financial
conversations that people have.
Because often it's the parentswho are dealing with the big
questions, tuition and you know,the big money issues.
(13:35):
And students are uh, you know, alot of students are more focused
on, you know, day-to-day, youknow, I have a summer job, and
that gives me the money, andthat that allows me to buy pizza
or you know, whatever.
But but parents are the onesfilling out the loan
applications and all of that.
Now, in some families, it'sdefinitely teamwork, but I think
(13:56):
often we don't talk to ourstudents enough about those big
financial issues.
And they really need tounderstand what you know what
what's on the line, um, howimportant to us being able to do
college are those meritscholarships that you got, and
(14:17):
what happens if you lose thosemerit scholars scholarships?
And you know, the fine financesseems to be another area where
often the transparency isn'twhat it could be.
Um but as you were talking, Ithere was one so much of this
article was was so good, butthere was one sentence that
(14:40):
really struck me.
Um and it was one study revealedthe reason some students lacked
this knowledge, whatever we'retalking about, no one spoke to
them directly and meaningfullyabout it.
And that idea of direct directlyand meaningfully it I mean I it
(15:07):
literally made me sad that howuh but how often are we not
direct and having meaningfulconversations with our students
um about everything going on uharound?
Um I I don't know, it's just Iit's something that directly and
(15:30):
meaningful stuck in my mind, andI would I I you know I would
offer that to parents to tothink about.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Well, I mean, they're gonna go off to a place
where, you know, legally, evenif they're not 18 yet, they are
considered adults in the eyes ofthe law.
If they are registered full-timeat college, this has nothing to
do with dual enrollmentprograms.
This is for high schoolgraduates who have gone off to
college.
And so, you know, maybe that's ahelpful framing too of you know,
(15:59):
once they get out there, theyare adults.
And so you should be comfortablespeaking to them, yeah, like you
would another adult aboutanything that you think is, you
know, meaningful.
Um go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (16:15):
And well, as as you're talking about at 18 or
when they go off to college, ifyou have a precocious
14-year-old going to college,they're considered an adult.
Um it it it it makes me think ofFERPA, the Federal Educational
Rights and Privacy Act, and andwe have podcasts about that and
(16:36):
articles about that.
Um but but that's why oftenparents are so anxious to um to
get the information.
I need to have the informationabout my students' grades, I
need to have the informationabout whether my students are
doing their assignments, I needbecause they haven't had these
direct conversations about youneed to be responsible for
(16:59):
yourself.
And I've been tracking all ofthat all along.
So it's especially hard for meto let go.
So I I want to move ahead andand and and really what I wanted
to do was just sort of touch onsome of the sections of your
article and give you anopportunity to talk a little bit
(17:19):
about it and then you know thinkabout how it applies to
everybody.
And and and one of the sectionsof the article had to do with um
how sometimes our use oflanguage interferes with this
transparency.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
So do you want to unpack that a little bit?
Sure.
So again, you know, I wrote thisfor the very disability-focused
um, you know, viewpoints.
So uh, you know, these termsthat we use, like neurodivergent
and um learning differences, um,and differently abled.
(17:57):
Um, and it's interesting becausewhen I was writing uh the third
edition of my book, I thought alot about language.
And when I was writing the firsttwo versions, it was um, and it
still is in a lot of places,person first language, a student
with dyslexia, a student withautism.
And there are folks in thedisability community that
(18:18):
actually prefer to havedisability um first language to
be referred to as an autisticperson, as a deaf person.
And so um I think, you know, andthere there was another um
podcast that I love that I am asubscriber to um called the
Learn Smarter Podcast, twofriends of mine who are uh
(18:39):
educational therapists.
And they did one on, you know,when parents will not share
anything with their studentabout what their disability is,
you know, they they go throughan evaluation and nobody ever
talks to them about it.
That sometimes, you know, whatwill happen is the student will
think it's so bad, the parentswon't actually tell them what it
(19:00):
is.
Um, and so I think, you know,often students might know that
something is different aboutthem.
And sometimes having an actuallabel can be useful to them.
And it's you know, we're nottrying to make it their whole
identity or the sum of who theyare.
It is, but for some of them,when they have a significant,
(19:22):
you know, and again, learningdisabilities and ADHD is my
area, um, a significantdisability, um, you know, we
have to acknowledge that it issomething that they're also
gonna have to manage at college.
And so that, you know, and thatis what led to the rest of the
article that we can talk aboutin a in a minute.
(19:43):
But um, this idea that uh if wedon't tell them stuff, it sort
of isn't there, you know, andit's not real and it and it
won't affect them.
And so, you know, parents doeverything they do for their
children, their students,because they love them and they
want to have them have a goodexperience and protect them from
things that are harmful.
(20:04):
Um, but I think that, you know,talking to them about the things
that you do for them that theymight be expected to do, you
know, for themselves and how youare, if this is the case, um,
you know, advocating for them inways that you will not be able
to later.
(20:25):
So I think there are lots ofdifferent aspects to the to the
language discussion that parentscan think about.
Um, you know, um, and laterthere's another uh podcast
episode I talk about where um Ithink it's is it Lisa or um oh
my goodness, it's my my mind isuh blank right now.
(20:47):
Uh the Two Black Moms and a Mikepodcast, where um I'm sorry,
Glenda, um talked about astudent who you know really
struggled with math and had amath-based learning disability
and wanted to go study, I forgetwhat the you know, something
that was going to require a lotof math.
And I think sometimes we say toour students, and maybe perhaps
(21:10):
uh, you know, students, parentsof students with disabilities
foremost, there's nothing youcan't do.
You know, this will not be, youknow, in your way.
We will make sure you haveappropriate accommodations.
And if you just try hard enough,you can do that.
And I don't, this is where thethe lens goes back out to all
(21:31):
students.
There are just some things thatare very, very hard for all of
us, be not necessarily becausewe have a disability, and we
need to have a sense of you knowwhere our strengths lie and
where our liabilities are, andwhether those liabilities are
big enough that it it might beimpossible to pass those
classes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:51):
Yeah.
That that really is essential,and it's really hard, I think,
for parents to not not just hardto talk about with your student,
but sometimes hard to accept.
That that you know, if you ifyou if you just work hard
(22:12):
enough, you'll you'll be able todo that.
Um, and it does apply to allstudents.
I have um I have an advisee.
I I'm I work with with a lot ofstudents in terms of uh helping
them through their major andhelping them plan their classes
each semester.
That's what an advisor does, andyou know, but when there are
problems, somebody to talk to.
(22:34):
Um, and I have a student whodecided after um a semester um
that she wanted to change hermajor, and she wanted to change
to um exercise science becauseshe liked the idea of either
being a physical therapist or Oruh trainer, uh athletic trainer,
(22:56):
or something like that.
And we looked at the major, andI had to say, have you, you
know, have you that's great.
But the major is three mathclasses, anatomy and physiology,
one and two, chemistry, one andtwo, physics.
I mean, well, how are you withscience?
Well, that's not my greateststrength.
(23:19):
So then that's not the major foryou.
SPEAKER_02 (23:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
And and then some really good conversations can
happen.
And this happens to be advisorto advise E, but it can happen
at home with parents as well, ofexploring options.
And maybe you need to bringsomebody else in to help, you
know, talk about what are theoptions or what are the ways to
(23:43):
get into that world withoutbeing the physical therapist or
something like that.
So um, so it's all students havetheir strengths and their
weaknesses, and being realisticabout what those weaknesses may
be.
Um and and and the other thing,some students will be able to do
(24:07):
it, but it's going to be really,really hard.
Yeah.
And recognizing that hard isn'tbad is helpful.
Uh you laugh at me.
Seriously.
No, I mean, I agree.
Like it's so important.
We are averse to things beinghard.
Um if it's not easy for me, thenI shouldn't be doing it.
(24:32):
And sometimes you have to, youknow, if if if the goal is there
and you really want it, you itit has to be, you know, it may
be hard.
Um, and and that's true of hardconversations, too, I think, and
talking about that.
Um so you talked in the articletoo about two kinds of supports
(24:54):
that sometimes get in the way ofthis transparency.
And one was um school andoutside supports and how they
might interfere.
And then also you talked aboutfamily supports, which we've
really touched on, but you know,there may be more we need to
say.
So, how do the things, thesupports that either the school
(25:19):
is providing or other outsidesources or families are
providing, how do they get inthe way of transparency?
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Sure.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I talk about in my work is
this difference between themandate for K-12 schools under
IDEA, Individuals withDisabilities Education Act, and
the two laws I've alreadymentioned that are in place at
the college level.
And, you know, they're they'resort of um boiled down by my
(25:47):
colleagues too.
A difference on a difference ina focus on student success in
K-12 versus providing access,you know, through the disability
services office at college.
And so that takes a lot ofdifferent forms.
So um, I know when students are,and I I I I had to do this when
(26:12):
back in the 90s for one of thestudents on my caseload.
Um, when when the the IEP iswritten so that the teacher is
emailing the student theassignments.
Um when the student gets to reand retake some uh a test or
rewrite a paper for a bettergrade.
(26:33):
These are all designed tobolster a student's academic
success.
But what it is not doing isworking on their skills.
And these are the kinds ofthings that, you know, I never
say never, but very, you know,if they're done at the college
level, it's extremely rare.
And that's party, you know, thethe expectations we have for all
(26:54):
students, whether they have adisability or not, is that
they're going to log into thecourse management system and
find out when stuff is due.
Our professor is perfect aboutmy with apologies to my company,
current company, uh perfectabout loading their syllabus in
the in the um in the coursemanagement system or updating it
(27:16):
when they make changes.
They're not, but these arethings that students have to
deal with.
And so if it's an adult-drivenum accommodation in high school
where a somebody does somethingin place of the student having
to find a system to manage it,those are the kinds of things
that can mask um, you know, howthey will do in college.
(27:39):
Um, when they meet with somebodyevery day, you know, in a
learning center, and that personstructures that meeting and
says, okay, you know, do you dothis?
You take out your assignmentnotebook, let's look over what
you have.
Um, will the student take those,are there skills actually being
developed there that they willthen take to the college level?
(28:00):
I mean, I spend all day talkingto students about how much free
time they have to manage and howhard it is to manage that time.
But what I try to talk to themabout is, you know, imposing
structure and having a routineand checking that, you know,
starting this semester by makinga list of all the assignments
(28:24):
week by week and thenreferencing that list and double
checking it against the coursemanagement system.
I mean, there's so much theyhave to do on their own.
And so when they're getting alot of adult direction or you
know, re adult replacement ofsomebody doing something that
they could be doing, though withdifficulty, um, it's not setting
(28:46):
them up well.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah, and I I you know, I think about all
students, I think about thestudents I see in my classroom,
and I do teach a lot offirst-year students, and that
idea of self-management and timemanagement.
Uh, I mean, they have all thisfree time uh that they haven't
(29:09):
had, and they need to learn thatyou know, free time doesn't mean
you have nothing to do, it justmeans it's your time to to
schedule the way you want it to.
I think it doesn't help that somany students in you know,
elementary, middle, high schoolare so scheduled.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Their lives are completely scheduled.
They have seven hours a day inschool, and then you know, often
have a list of things afterthat.
Some of them go to a job for afew hours, some of them have
athletic practices or bandpractice or you know, dance
classes, or you know, whateverelse they're doing.
(29:49):
And and there's really onlymaybe a couple of hours in the
evening that they get to haveany say over what happens.
Um, and you know, uh as you weretalking, and I was trying to
picture, you know, where itbecause they're so scheduled,
and I there's probably nothingwe can do about that the way
(30:11):
their lives are these days, itseems as though one of the one
of the areas, and this is scary,I think, for parents, where you
can begin to help your studentfigure out how to keep track and
manage time and check things andkeep lists and all, is the
(30:31):
college admission process.
And you know, we jump in becauseit's so important.
Oh, I I mean, I a number ofparents I've talked to, high
school parents, who say, I don'tdare let my student be in charge
of that because they're gonnamiss deadlines and they're gonna
do this and the other thing.
Right.
And I am not suggesting, youknow, let go of the reins and
(30:52):
give them free reign, you know,just say, let me know when you
get, you know, here we arebeginning the the process.
Let me know when you get thatfinal acceptance letter.
But but instead of mom or dadcolor coding the Excel
spreadsheets and you know,putting the dates on the
(31:13):
calendar, sit with your studentand help them do it and then let
them go from there.
And might they miss some kind ofdeadline somewhere along the
line?
Maybe.
And might that be the bestlearning lesson they're gonna
have?
I I don't know, but having thoseopportunities to work on those
things are and not rescuingthem.
(31:36):
I know one of our favoritebooks, both of us, is you you're
smiling because you know whatI'm gonna mention is Jessica
Leahy's Gift of Failure.
Um, and I would highly recommendthat to any parent who has not
already read that.
Um, some of which, you know, ifyou're the parent of an
elementary school student, it'stime to read it.
(31:58):
And if but it's never too late.
Um, so even if you missed thatopportunity, um, you know, she
talks about her her childleaving the homework paper home
on the coffee table, and shesees it in the morning and knows
he's supposed to turn it in thatday.
And it's okay, you know, she hasthis wrestle with herself all
(32:20):
day.
Should I take it?
Should I take it to the school?
And you know, get and and shedoesn't.
And then when the child comeshome, and what happened, what
happened?
And they say, Oh, it's okay.
I talked to the teacher, and theteacher said, if I bring it in
tomorrow, you know, I'll bemarked down a couple of points,
but it's gonna be fine.
(32:41):
They handled it.
Um, yeah, so yeah, that's a goodbook to really talk about how to
start to take those baby stepsto let them.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yeah.
And you know, I understand thatfor parents of students with
disabilities, failure is a wordthat is very upsetting, in part
because sometimes students don'tget identified as having a
disability until they've, youknow, hit some level of failure.
And so they're worried abouttheir child's self-esteem, and
that is really important.
(33:15):
Um, but I I think that if ifstudents don't recognize, for
instance, that they areconstantly leaving stuff behind,
they need to be motivated towork on a system that helps that
make sure that that does nothappen to them.
And that is the piece that Ithink is sometimes missing with
(33:36):
these well-intentionedaccommodations is um, you know,
I really want students to go toschool, to college, feeling
confident.
And I believe that confidencecomes out of competence, of the
acknowledgement, the recognitionthat they can do things.
(33:57):
And none of us does anythingperfectly.
So that is part of the worry,too.
So, you know, um, I havecertainly worked with and
colleagues talk a lot aboutstudents whose perfectionism is
really, really a problem.
They cannot turn anything inuntil they've decided it's
(34:17):
perfect.
And maybe, you know, the theparent, the fam, the parents
convince, you know, the teachersin the high school to be
flexible about that becauseElizabeth is so brilliant as a
writer, but you know, she justneeds that extra time to tweak
that.
Well, a you know, professors maynot feel the same way about
that, but also there's nothingabout that process, you know,
(34:40):
maybe Elizabeth needs therapy tohelp her, you know, get uh to a
place where she can feelcomfortable turning something
in.
But that's you know, sometimesthat asking other things to
happen in place of the studenthaving to address the thing that
that's a challenge for them, Ithink is well intentioned, but
(35:03):
kind of short-sighted.
SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
No, and you know, as you talk about professors who
are cold-hearted and don't givedon't give this extra time, um,
sometimes that's often me, um,but sometimes it's because I
know your boss isn't going to dothat once you get the job.
And so, you know, parents canhelp students get ready for
(35:29):
college.
And then in college, a big partof our job is to help them get
ready for the workforce.
And it chances are pretty goodwhen the boss says, I need this
memo on my desk by noon onFriday.
They need it at noon on Fridayand not uh, oh yeah, next
Wednesday will be fine because Iknow it will, you know, maybe
(35:51):
you could do a little better jobif you got it done.
So it's really that forwardthinking, you know, yeah at each
stage are we thinking about whatthen what the next phase is
going to be.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
And and I was gonna say, and even if they don't need
it, they just want it, and sothat is that's where the bottom
line is.
Yeah, yeah, you know, sometimesthe world is not flexible for
people, and it's it's notnecessarily the right thing, but
we don't help our students byyou know smoothing every path
(36:26):
for them.
We just literally can't, and sono matter how wonderful and
involved parents are, eventuallystudents will encounter
something where they they can'tbe there, they can't help, they
can't intervene.
And we want students to havesome experience with resilience
too, and we don't build it bynot allowing them to experience
(36:48):
small difficulties and realizethat you know the sun comes up
the next day and you get up andyou have your breakfast and you
keep going.
SPEAKER_03 (36:55):
Yeah, uh, you know, I really like in in everything
you've been saying, uh I'mhearing confidence and
competence, yeah, andself-esteem, yeah, and and
self-respect.
Um, and I, you know, all ofthose come from from that that
(37:17):
self-management and that self-umself-determination, I think was
actually a word that you used inthe article, you know, that I
that I have it's empowering.
I have control over this thing,but I need to know what I'm what
I have control over.
And that's where thattransparency is.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood point.
(37:39):
Um and and part of that then toois also knowing what what kind
of help you need.
I mean, one of one of thethings, and we have a I think we
have a podcast on it, and I knowthere is at least one article on
on the College Parents Centralwebsite about um students help
(38:00):
seeking.
And and it's it's really aproblem um for all kinds of
students, students withdisabilities, but all the rest
of them as well.
They they just don't ask forhelp.
And there are all kinds ofreasons, and I I I'm pretty sure
we have an article on that, andand I'll link to it in the show
(38:22):
notes.
Um, you know, that there thatthere are different students for
different reasons, may avoidasking for help.
I don't want to look stupid.
Um, I don't know that I needhelp.
I don't think help will help me.
I think I'm a lost cause.
Um, and so the more they canunderstand about why they need
help and what resources areavailable, that's a that's a
(38:47):
thing where parents can helpstudents who are headed to
college.
Let's let's look and see whatare the resources that are there
for you.
Um, but sometimes I thinkcollege, you know, I think
colleges work hard on that.
I I work a lot with studentscoming in to college.
Um and the college works hard tomake sure they know there's a
(39:09):
writing center, there's atutoring center, the librarians
will help you and all of this.
But just helping them know whatthe resources are doesn't mean
they will pre be be proactive inasking for it.
Yes.
Um, so it's a combination of youknow, education, knowing what's
there, but understanding why Imight need it and then how to
(39:34):
ask for the for the help.
It's really complex.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
Yeah, and that is one of the things that I
mentioned in the piece is thatsometimes, like I said, you
know, students, at least in theschool setting, get to meet with
somebody every day, and theydon't even have to work at
something and reach a point offrustration before, you know,
without an adult being rightthere.
And so I have had students whosay, Well, I don't even know how
(40:01):
to articulate what I don'tunderstand.
Well, that is that is a problem.
And um, when somebody is alwaysthere, I mean, I have friends
who are um college admissionconsultants who help students
work with their search and theytalk to the, you know, and
that's neurotypical uh studentsabout a tutor comes every week
(40:24):
to do this and a tutor comesevery week to do that.
And so, you know, you can gettutoring at college, and if your
family has enough, you know,financial resources, you can
find somebody to tutor thestudent.
But I still think that that thatlack of confidence and the worry
about, well, am I onlysuccessful at this because
(40:45):
there's always somebody there tohelp me?
Um, and you know, also myexperience with college students
is it's certainly possible theywill not be able to find
somebody willing to tutor themat 2 a.m., which is when they're
doing the assignment that's dueat nine when class starts.
SPEAKER_03 (41:02):
So that's true.
Student hours are a little bitdifferent.
Um, but that then that helpsthem, you know, begin to think
about um procrastination andplanning ahead and not leaving
things to.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat are all woven together.
Um, and I, you know, I I I'dlike in your article, um, I
(41:26):
mean, to begin to try to pullthis together, um, that you you
do make the point that that thisshouldn't wait until we're about
to head off to college.
This is this is a long, it's along-term process.
And and what they're if youstart really early with small
(41:49):
steps, then the bigger steps aregoing to be easier later.
But if you wait until the end, Iyou know, like going back to our
w one of my favorites, JessicaLeahy, um, her other book, The
Addiction Inoculation, which isa great book, um, but she she
(42:11):
talks about, you know, you don'twait until your student's about
to head off to college and thensay, we now have to talk about
alcohol and drugs.
Um, but it starts even, youknow, when they're very, very
young, and saying, you know,this is this is mommy's
prescription, and see it has hername on it, and so only I, you
know, can can take it.
(42:32):
And and then gradually you youwork up.
And uh, I think keeping that inmind in terms of being
transparent early on doesn'tmean you have to spill
everything in every last detail.
It's just beginning tounderstand and letting it grow.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Right, it should be age appropriate.
Um, but I I think trying toshield them from everything is
um going to create problems forthem down the road.
And you know, we you you I Ichallenged you earlier when we
said you said we want to supportthem.
(43:12):
Well, support them in what?
And presumably the answer isbecoming an independent, you
know person with a sense ofagency and a sense of purpose.
And um sometimes what we do forour our students out of love
does not enhance, you know,doesn't move them toward that
(43:35):
goal.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
Yeah, that's a great thought to to end this with.
And it goes back back to wherewe started, and that idea of
direct and meaningfulconversations at whatever level,
um, and really thinking aboutwhat that end goal is.
(43:58):
Um thanks for letting me pickyour brain about your article.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
Sorry, never really answered the provided a good uh
definition of transparency.
Hopefully, we explained it evenif we didn't perfectly explain
it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:10):
Sometimes you have to go around it um and and you
and you wind up on it.
But it's it's direct andmeaningful and um talking about
the practical realities um andall of that.
So I hope it's been helpful toparents.
Um and we we mentioned you knowa whole bunch of things.
We've mentioned a couple ofbooks, we've mentioned articles.
(44:31):
I know you have a couple ofother articles that probably
relate.
So we're gonna list all of thosethings in the show notes so
people can follow up and um andwe will also um if if they want
to look for this article, it'son your website, ldadvisory.com.
Um, and we'll link link to that.
(44:52):
In the show notes so people canfollow up.
And thanks to everybody forsticking with us to the end of
this roundabout conversation.
And we'll see you next time.
Thanks, Vicki.
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already incollege, this podcast is for
you.
You'll find food for thought andinformation about college and
about navigating that delicatebalance of guidance,
involvement, and knowing when toget out of the way.
(01:24):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
SPEAKER_03 (01:36):
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
We are the podcast that talksabout all kinds of things that
have to do with being a collegeparent, being the parent of a
student who is thinking about orabout to head to college, and
sometimes students who aregraduating from college.
Just about anything you canthink of, we try to touch on it.
(01:59):
My name is Vicky Nelson, and Iam here today with one of my
co-hosts, Elizabeth Hamblett.
I am a professor ofcommunication at a small liberal
arts college, and I am also anacademic advisor.
And so I work with students,college students every day.
And maybe even more importantly,I am the parent of three
(02:23):
daughters who have gone tocollege and who've all graduated
and we all survived.
So that's the perspective that Icome from.
And I'm going to let Elizabethintroduce herself.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Well, we're grateful you survived, Vicki.
SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
Yeah, thank goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Um, Elizabeth Hamblett.
I am a college learningdisability specialist and the
author of Seven Steps to CollegeSuccess: A Pathway for Students
with Disabilities.
I always want to put the colonin there when I say the title.
Uh I too am the uh parent of twocollege graduates.
(02:59):
Um, and you know, the other partof my time outside of the
university work is spent tryingto uh educate parents and K-12
professionals about the changesat college.
And that is a little bit of alead into the conversation
today.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Yeah, um this was my idea.
I'll take credit or blame, asdepending on how it goes.
Um, but Elizabeth just wrote uhan article that I sometimes I
stumble on on these things thatuh really made an impression on
me.
(03:37):
Um, and it was called TheImportance of Transparency in
College Preparation for Studentswith Disabilities.
And what I just wanted to do wastake off the with disabilities
because that seems to be theapproach I often take.
Um, that really it was about theimportance of transparency in
(04:00):
college preparation forstudents.
And Elizabeth's field, ofcourse, is to talk about
students with disabilities, andthat that was really important
and a lot of good informationthere.
But as I kept reading thearticle, I kept thinking, well,
yeah, but this applies to allstudents, to all students.
So I thought what we could do isjust sort of unpack this article
(04:22):
a little bit and some of thethings that Elizabeth um talked
about.
And if you have a student withdisabilities, you absolutely,
you know, want to be hearingthis.
And if you have a student whodoes not have disabilities, you
absolutely want to be hearingthis because you know, with a
few little tweaks, it reallyapplies to all students and this
this idea of transparency.
(04:44):
So I wanted to start by justwe're not going to read the
article to you, but I I justwanted to read the first
sentence of the article to kindof give a give a sense of where
we are.
So Elizabeth says, when studentswith disabilities transition to
college, they'll needself-knowledge in order to
(05:07):
register for accommodations,figure out how to study and work
effectively, and seek help whenneeded.
Excuse me.
And in that, I really hear somany of the themes that we talk
about all the time.
Um, and you know, neurotypicalstudents may not need to
register for accommodations, butthey certainly do need to figure
(05:30):
out how to study and workeffectively.
And help seeking is a huge issueas well.
So I thought let's start.
Um, I'll put Elizabeth on thespot um and and say, well, what
do we mean by transparency?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Well, uh what we mean is, I mean, you did put me
on the spot.
Okay.
I did.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
You used the word.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
I'm gonna I'm gonna punt it and say that uh the
transparency piece was umsomething that came to me
through somebody else's podcast.
So I am a fan and subscriber tothe Tilt Parenting podcast.
Um my my friend uh DeborahRieber um is a longtime um
(06:16):
podcaster.
She's the author of uhDifferently Wired, a Parent's
Guide to Raising an AtypicalChild with Confidence and Hope.
And um a few years ago, uh herchild was um, you know, moving
through their high school years,and she talked, she did an
episode about um, you know,talking to that student about
(06:38):
their needs and about the thingsthat had been, you know, done to
support them.
And it really struck me becauseum there are there are a couple
of different things.
Um, there are there is talk inmy field of the college uh
disability services fieldamongst colleagues about
students who sometimes um cometo their offices, um, or the
(07:03):
parents, I should say, approachtheir offices and say, my
student needs accommodation, um,but they've never seen their
paperwork and they don't knowwhat their disability is, and I
don't want you to tell them.
And that is not a commonoccurrence, but it certainly
does come up.
And that really strikes me as,you know, depriving a student of
a student of really crucialself-knowledge.
(07:26):
Um, and we that's later in thein the article and we can talk
about it, but um there aresupports that um students
receive that that may mask theeffect of their disability uh on
their functioning and theyachieve a certain level of
academic achievement, um butwith with supports that may not
(07:51):
be available to them later orthat don't that are in place
instead of a focus on buildingtheir skills.
And so um there are lots ofwonderful parenting writers and
podcasters talking about this,and I just thought it was worth
talking about because part ofwhat you know we also talk about
(08:13):
in my work is those, and Imentioned it, the accommodations
that students don't uh typicallyget at the college level.
And so when we are bolsteringstudents' academic achievement
in the high school by providingcertain supports, what we're
doing is setting them up forreal change at the college
(08:34):
level.
And I understand the reluctanceto pull certain things away, um,
but it can leave a studentfeeling really, you know,
unprepared for the collegeenvironment.
So I'm not sure I did such agreat job of explaining what
transparency is, but let's let'skeep going.
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
Yeah, no, I think I think that helps.
And you know, you're you'retalking about it in terms of of
students not understanding theirown um disabilities, um, but and
the and the college supports,the high school supports, sorry,
(09:10):
um, setting them up for successin high school, but not
necessarily preparing them forcollege.
And I think, again, I keep goingback to the more than
neurotypical students becausethose are the ones I see in in
my classroom every day.
And, you know, I'm thinkingabout all of the things that we
do as parents to support themand keep them successful in high
(09:31):
school, but is that reallypreparing them for college?
And I mean things like wakingthem up in the morning and
helping them get up since theyturn the alarm clock off and you
know, go back to sleep, or umwhen they forget something at
school, we we run down and if wecan and and drop it off, or um,
you know, we reach out to theteacher and and have a
(09:52):
conversation rather than sayingto the student, you know, you
all of those things, everythingwe do, I think it's worth us
examining what we're doing tosupport our student.
We we want to support ourstudents, but where does support
end and setting them up for notbeing able to do it themselves
(10:13):
later?
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
And if I could finish that thought, support
them in what?
Support them to to get to whatgoal.
And so I think that's you knowwhat we're talking about.
Now, you know, with regard thisagain, this the the the germ of
this idea came from Debbie'spodcast episode about, you know,
we and and and I sometimes uhpreface my remarks when I give a
(10:39):
presentation by saying, I'mgoing to use the word disability
um in this talk or in this pieceof writing, because um in order
to be eligible foraccommodations at the college
level, it has to be adisability.
It is the Americans withDisabilities Act and Section 504
of the Rehabilitation Act of1973 is about students with
(10:59):
disabilities.
Um, and so you know, there issome uh well-meaning language
that people use, like uhneurodivergent and uh learning
differences, and these are allmeant to, you know, provide a
much more positive framing.
And I'm not trying to saythere's anything inherently bad
(11:21):
about that.
Um, but it um at some pointstudents need to know is this
truly just you know a learningdifference?
And you know, there are thingsI'm kind of good at and things
I'm not as good at, or is ittruly a disability?
And in in the blog post, youknow, there were some quotes
from a qualitative study thatwas done about 12 years ago now,
(11:43):
I think.
And, you know, one of thestudents that they spoke to said
that she did not know whatlearning difference meant, and
that, you know, she could haveregistered with the disability
services office, but she kind ofdidn't think that that was
something she needed to do.
Um, and she had really beenill-prepared for explaining
herself or understanding herselfwhen she got to college.
(12:06):
So, you know, that is maybe veryspecific to the disability
world, but if we try to pull thelens out a little bit more
broadly, you know, what do youthink is language parents may be
using with their students thatsort of masks what's you know
what the reality is?
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Right.
And so it it uh it it it comesback to us, I think, thinking
about what we do, right?
Thinking about how we talk toour students about those things,
um, and being open.
Uh you know, it it makes methink there was there was a I I
haven't answered your questionabout what I think about.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
I did notice that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
Yeah, I would maybe I'd be a good politician, I
don't know.
Um, but because I'm not sure Ihave an answer of specific
things, but yeah, it it becauseit's also personal, it depends
on your relationship with yourstudent, and it depends on what
when you look at yourself, howare you supporting your student
and you know what how are youtalking to your student about
(13:11):
things?
And I I think one of the areasthat this transparency is so
important um also has to do withsome of the financial
conversations that people have.
Because often it's the parentswho are dealing with the big
questions, tuition and you know,the big money issues.
(13:35):
And students are uh, you know, alot of students are more focused
on, you know, day-to-day, youknow, I have a summer job, and
that gives me the money, andthat that allows me to buy pizza
or you know, whatever.
But but parents are the onesfilling out the loan
applications and all of that.
Now, in some families, it'sdefinitely teamwork, but I think
(13:56):
often we don't talk to ourstudents enough about those big
financial issues.
And they really need tounderstand what you know what
what's on the line, um, howimportant to us being able to do
college are those meritscholarships that you got, and
(14:17):
what happens if you lose thosemerit scholars scholarships?
And you know, the fine financesseems to be another area where
often the transparency isn'twhat it could be.
Um but as you were talking, Ithere was one so much of this
article was was so good, butthere was one sentence that
(14:40):
really struck me.
Um and it was one study revealedthe reason some students lacked
this knowledge, whatever we'retalking about, no one spoke to
them directly and meaningfullyabout it.
And that idea of direct directlyand meaningfully it I mean I it
(15:07):
literally made me sad that howuh but how often are we not
direct and having meaningfulconversations with our students
um about everything going on uharound?
Um I I don't know, it's just Iit's something that directly and
(15:30):
meaningful stuck in my mind, andI would I I you know I would
offer that to parents to tothink about.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Well, I mean, they're gonna go off to a place
where, you know, legally, evenif they're not 18 yet, they are
considered adults in the eyes ofthe law.
If they are registered full-timeat college, this has nothing to
do with dual enrollmentprograms.
This is for high schoolgraduates who have gone off to
college.
And so, you know, maybe that's ahelpful framing too of you know,
(15:59):
once they get out there, theyare adults.
And so you should be comfortablespeaking to them, yeah, like you
would another adult aboutanything that you think is, you
know, meaningful.
Um go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (16:15):
And well, as as you're talking about at 18 or
when they go off to college, ifyou have a precocious
14-year-old going to college,they're considered an adult.
Um it it it it makes me think ofFERPA, the Federal Educational
Rights and Privacy Act, and andwe have podcasts about that and
(16:36):
articles about that.
Um but but that's why oftenparents are so anxious to um to
get the information.
I need to have the informationabout my students' grades, I
need to have the informationabout whether my students are
doing their assignments, I needbecause they haven't had these
direct conversations about youneed to be responsible for
(16:59):
yourself.
And I've been tracking all ofthat all along.
So it's especially hard for meto let go.
So I I want to move ahead andand and and really what I wanted
to do was just sort of touch onsome of the sections of your
article and give you anopportunity to talk a little bit
(17:19):
about it and then you know thinkabout how it applies to
everybody.
And and and one of the sectionsof the article had to do with um
how sometimes our use oflanguage interferes with this
transparency.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
So do you want to unpack that a little bit?
Sure.
So again, you know, I wrote thisfor the very disability-focused
um, you know, viewpoints.
So uh, you know, these termsthat we use, like neurodivergent
and um learning differences, um,and differently abled.
(17:57):
Um, and it's interesting becausewhen I was writing uh the third
edition of my book, I thought alot about language.
And when I was writing the firsttwo versions, it was um, and it
still is in a lot of places,person first language, a student
with dyslexia, a student withautism.
And there are folks in thedisability community that
(18:18):
actually prefer to havedisability um first language to
be referred to as an autisticperson, as a deaf person.
And so um I think, you know, andthere there was another um
podcast that I love that I am asubscriber to um called the
Learn Smarter Podcast, twofriends of mine who are uh
(18:39):
educational therapists.
And they did one on, you know,when parents will not share
anything with their studentabout what their disability is,
you know, they they go throughan evaluation and nobody ever
talks to them about it.
That sometimes, you know, whatwill happen is the student will
think it's so bad, the parentswon't actually tell them what it
(19:00):
is.
Um, and so I think, you know,often students might know that
something is different aboutthem.
And sometimes having an actuallabel can be useful to them.
And it's you know, we're nottrying to make it their whole
identity or the sum of who theyare.
It is, but for some of them,when they have a significant,
(19:22):
you know, and again, learningdisabilities and ADHD is my
area, um, a significantdisability, um, you know, we
have to acknowledge that it issomething that they're also
gonna have to manage at college.
And so that, you know, and thatis what led to the rest of the
article that we can talk aboutin a in a minute.
(19:43):
But um, this idea that uh if wedon't tell them stuff, it sort
of isn't there, you know, andit's not real and it and it
won't affect them.
And so, you know, parents doeverything they do for their
children, their students,because they love them and they
want to have them have a goodexperience and protect them from
things that are harmful.
(20:04):
Um, but I think that, you know,talking to them about the things
that you do for them that theymight be expected to do, you
know, for themselves and how youare, if this is the case, um,
you know, advocating for them inways that you will not be able
to later.
(20:25):
So I think there are lots ofdifferent aspects to the to the
language discussion that parentscan think about.
Um, you know, um, and laterthere's another uh podcast
episode I talk about where um Ithink it's is it Lisa or um oh
my goodness, it's my my mind isuh blank right now.
(20:47):
Uh the Two Black Moms and a Mikepodcast, where um I'm sorry,
Glenda, um talked about astudent who you know really
struggled with math and had amath-based learning disability
and wanted to go study, I forgetwhat the you know, something
that was going to require a lotof math.
And I think sometimes we say toour students, and maybe perhaps
(21:10):
uh, you know, students, parentsof students with disabilities
foremost, there's nothing youcan't do.
You know, this will not be, youknow, in your way.
We will make sure you haveappropriate accommodations.
And if you just try hard enough,you can do that.
And I don't, this is where thethe lens goes back out to all
(21:31):
students.
There are just some things thatare very, very hard for all of
us, be not necessarily becausewe have a disability, and we
need to have a sense of you knowwhere our strengths lie and
where our liabilities are, andwhether those liabilities are
big enough that it it might beimpossible to pass those
classes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:51):
Yeah.
That that really is essential,and it's really hard, I think,
for parents to not not just hardto talk about with your student,
but sometimes hard to accept.
That that you know, if you ifyou if you just work hard
(22:12):
enough, you'll you'll be able todo that.
Um, and it does apply to allstudents.
I have um I have an advisee.
I I'm I work with with a lot ofstudents in terms of uh helping
them through their major andhelping them plan their classes
each semester.
That's what an advisor does, andyou know, but when there are
problems, somebody to talk to.
(22:34):
Um, and I have a student whodecided after um a semester um
that she wanted to change hermajor, and she wanted to change
to um exercise science becauseshe liked the idea of either
being a physical therapist or Oruh trainer, uh athletic trainer,
(22:56):
or something like that.
And we looked at the major, andI had to say, have you, you
know, have you that's great.
But the major is three mathclasses, anatomy and physiology,
one and two, chemistry, one andtwo, physics.
I mean, well, how are you withscience?
Well, that's not my greateststrength.
(23:19):
So then that's not the major foryou.
SPEAKER_02 (23:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
And and then some really good conversations can
happen.
And this happens to be advisorto advise E, but it can happen
at home with parents as well, ofexploring options.
And maybe you need to bringsomebody else in to help, you
know, talk about what are theoptions or what are the ways to
(23:43):
get into that world withoutbeing the physical therapist or
something like that.
So um, so it's all students havetheir strengths and their
weaknesses, and being realisticabout what those weaknesses may
be.
Um and and and the other thing,some students will be able to do
(24:07):
it, but it's going to be really,really hard.
Yeah.
And recognizing that hard isn'tbad is helpful.
Uh you laugh at me.
Seriously.
No, I mean, I agree.
Like it's so important.
We are averse to things beinghard.
Um if it's not easy for me, thenI shouldn't be doing it.
(24:32):
And sometimes you have to, youknow, if if if the goal is there
and you really want it, you itit has to be, you know, it may
be hard.
Um, and and that's true of hardconversations, too, I think, and
talking about that.
Um so you talked in the articletoo about two kinds of supports
(24:54):
that sometimes get in the way ofthis transparency.
And one was um school andoutside supports and how they
might interfere.
And then also you talked aboutfamily supports, which we've
really touched on, but you know,there may be more we need to
say.
So, how do the things, thesupports that either the school
(25:19):
is providing or other outsidesources or families are
providing, how do they get inthe way of transparency?
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Sure.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I talk about in my work is
this difference between themandate for K-12 schools under
IDEA, Individuals withDisabilities Education Act, and
the two laws I've alreadymentioned that are in place at
the college level.
And, you know, they're they'resort of um boiled down by my
(25:47):
colleagues too.
A difference on a difference ina focus on student success in
K-12 versus providing access,you know, through the disability
services office at college.
And so that takes a lot ofdifferent forms.
So um, I know when students are,and I I I I had to do this when
(26:12):
back in the 90s for one of thestudents on my caseload.
Um, when when the the IEP iswritten so that the teacher is
emailing the student theassignments.
Um when the student gets to reand retake some uh a test or
rewrite a paper for a bettergrade.
(26:33):
These are all designed tobolster a student's academic
success.
But what it is not doing isworking on their skills.
And these are the kinds ofthings that, you know, I never
say never, but very, you know,if they're done at the college
level, it's extremely rare.
And that's party, you know, thethe expectations we have for all
(26:54):
students, whether they have adisability or not, is that
they're going to log into thecourse management system and
find out when stuff is due.
Our professor is perfect aboutmy with apologies to my company,
current company, uh perfectabout loading their syllabus in
the in the um in the coursemanagement system or updating it
(27:16):
when they make changes.
They're not, but these arethings that students have to
deal with.
And so if it's an adult-drivenum accommodation in high school
where a somebody does somethingin place of the student having
to find a system to manage it,those are the kinds of things
that can mask um, you know, howthey will do in college.
(27:39):
Um, when they meet with somebodyevery day, you know, in a
learning center, and that personstructures that meeting and
says, okay, you know, do you dothis?
You take out your assignmentnotebook, let's look over what
you have.
Um, will the student take those,are there skills actually being
developed there that they willthen take to the college level?
(28:00):
I mean, I spend all day talkingto students about how much free
time they have to manage and howhard it is to manage that time.
But what I try to talk to themabout is, you know, imposing
structure and having a routineand checking that, you know,
starting this semester by makinga list of all the assignments
(28:24):
week by week and thenreferencing that list and double
checking it against the coursemanagement system.
I mean, there's so much theyhave to do on their own.
And so when they're getting alot of adult direction or you
know, re adult replacement ofsomebody doing something that
they could be doing, though withdifficulty, um, it's not setting
(28:46):
them up well.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah, and I I you know, I think about all
students, I think about thestudents I see in my classroom,
and I do teach a lot offirst-year students, and that
idea of self-management and timemanagement.
Uh, I mean, they have all thisfree time uh that they haven't
(29:09):
had, and they need to learn thatyou know, free time doesn't mean
you have nothing to do, it justmeans it's your time to to
schedule the way you want it to.
I think it doesn't help that somany students in you know,
elementary, middle, high schoolare so scheduled.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Their lives are completely scheduled.
They have seven hours a day inschool, and then you know, often
have a list of things afterthat.
Some of them go to a job for afew hours, some of them have
athletic practices or bandpractice or you know, dance
classes, or you know, whateverelse they're doing.
(29:49):
And and there's really onlymaybe a couple of hours in the
evening that they get to haveany say over what happens.
Um, and you know, uh as you weretalking, and I was trying to
picture, you know, where itbecause they're so scheduled,
and I there's probably nothingwe can do about that the way
(30:11):
their lives are these days, itseems as though one of the one
of the areas, and this is scary,I think, for parents, where you
can begin to help your studentfigure out how to keep track and
manage time and check things andkeep lists and all, is the
(30:31):
college admission process.
And you know, we jump in becauseit's so important.
Oh, I I mean, I a number ofparents I've talked to, high
school parents, who say, I don'tdare let my student be in charge
of that because they're gonnamiss deadlines and they're gonna
do this and the other thing.
Right.
And I am not suggesting, youknow, let go of the reins and
(30:52):
give them free reign, you know,just say, let me know when you
get, you know, here we arebeginning the the process.
Let me know when you get thatfinal acceptance letter.
But but instead of mom or dadcolor coding the Excel
spreadsheets and you know,putting the dates on the
(31:13):
calendar, sit with your studentand help them do it and then let
them go from there.
And might they miss some kind ofdeadline somewhere along the
line?
Maybe.
And might that be the bestlearning lesson they're gonna
have?
I I don't know, but having thoseopportunities to work on those
things are and not rescuingthem.
(31:36):
I know one of our favoritebooks, both of us, is you you're
smiling because you know whatI'm gonna mention is Jessica
Leahy's Gift of Failure.
Um, and I would highly recommendthat to any parent who has not
already read that.
Um, some of which, you know, ifyou're the parent of an
elementary school student, it'stime to read it.
(31:58):
And if but it's never too late.
Um, so even if you missed thatopportunity, um, you know, she
talks about her her childleaving the homework paper home
on the coffee table, and shesees it in the morning and knows
he's supposed to turn it in thatday.
And it's okay, you know, she hasthis wrestle with herself all
(32:20):
day.
Should I take it?
Should I take it to the school?
And you know, get and and shedoesn't.
And then when the child comeshome, and what happened, what
happened?
And they say, Oh, it's okay.
I talked to the teacher, and theteacher said, if I bring it in
tomorrow, you know, I'll bemarked down a couple of points,
but it's gonna be fine.
(32:41):
They handled it.
Um, yeah, so yeah, that's a goodbook to really talk about how to
start to take those baby stepsto let them.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yeah.
And you know, I understand thatfor parents of students with
disabilities, failure is a wordthat is very upsetting, in part
because sometimes students don'tget identified as having a
disability until they've, youknow, hit some level of failure.
And so they're worried abouttheir child's self-esteem, and
that is really important.
(33:15):
Um, but I I think that if ifstudents don't recognize, for
instance, that they areconstantly leaving stuff behind,
they need to be motivated towork on a system that helps that
make sure that that does nothappen to them.
And that is the piece that Ithink is sometimes missing with
(33:36):
these well-intentionedaccommodations is um, you know,
I really want students to go toschool, to college, feeling
confident.
And I believe that confidencecomes out of competence, of the
acknowledgement, the recognitionthat they can do things.
(33:57):
And none of us does anythingperfectly.
So that is part of the worry,too.
So, you know, um, I havecertainly worked with and
colleagues talk a lot aboutstudents whose perfectionism is
really, really a problem.
They cannot turn anything inuntil they've decided it's
(34:17):
perfect.
And maybe, you know, the theparent, the fam, the parents
convince, you know, the teachersin the high school to be
flexible about that becauseElizabeth is so brilliant as a
writer, but you know, she justneeds that extra time to tweak
that.
Well, a you know, professors maynot feel the same way about
that, but also there's nothingabout that process, you know,
(34:40):
maybe Elizabeth needs therapy tohelp her, you know, get uh to a
place where she can feelcomfortable turning something
in.
But that's you know, sometimesthat asking other things to
happen in place of the studenthaving to address the thing that
that's a challenge for them, Ithink is well intentioned, but
(35:03):
kind of short-sighted.
SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
No, and you know, as you talk about professors who
are cold-hearted and don't givedon't give this extra time, um,
sometimes that's often me, um,but sometimes it's because I
know your boss isn't going to dothat once you get the job.
And so, you know, parents canhelp students get ready for
(35:29):
college.
And then in college, a big partof our job is to help them get
ready for the workforce.
And it chances are pretty goodwhen the boss says, I need this
memo on my desk by noon onFriday.
They need it at noon on Fridayand not uh, oh yeah, next
Wednesday will be fine because Iknow it will, you know, maybe
(35:51):
you could do a little better jobif you got it done.
So it's really that forwardthinking, you know, yeah at each
stage are we thinking about whatthen what the next phase is
going to be.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
And and I was gonna say, and even if they don't need
it, they just want it, and sothat is that's where the bottom
line is.
Yeah, yeah, you know, sometimesthe world is not flexible for
people, and it's it's notnecessarily the right thing, but
we don't help our students byyou know smoothing every path
(36:26):
for them.
We just literally can't, and sono matter how wonderful and
involved parents are, eventuallystudents will encounter
something where they they can'tbe there, they can't help, they
can't intervene.
And we want students to havesome experience with resilience
too, and we don't build it bynot allowing them to experience
(36:48):
small difficulties and realizethat you know the sun comes up
the next day and you get up andyou have your breakfast and you
keep going.
SPEAKER_03 (36:55):
Yeah, uh, you know, I really like in in everything
you've been saying, uh I'mhearing confidence and
competence, yeah, andself-esteem, yeah, and and
self-respect.
Um, and I, you know, all ofthose come from from that that
(37:17):
self-management and that self-umself-determination, I think was
actually a word that you used inthe article, you know, that I
that I have it's empowering.
I have control over this thing,but I need to know what I'm what
I have control over.
And that's where thattransparency is.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood point.
(37:39):
Um and and part of that then toois also knowing what what kind
of help you need.
I mean, one of one of thethings, and we have a I think we
have a podcast on it, and I knowthere is at least one article on
on the College Parents Centralwebsite about um students help
(38:00):
seeking.
And and it's it's really aproblem um for all kinds of
students, students withdisabilities, but all the rest
of them as well.
They they just don't ask forhelp.
And there are all kinds ofreasons, and I I I'm pretty sure
we have an article on that, andand I'll link to it in the show
(38:22):
notes.
Um, you know, that there thatthere are different students for
different reasons, may avoidasking for help.
I don't want to look stupid.
Um, I don't know that I needhelp.
I don't think help will help me.
I think I'm a lost cause.
Um, and so the more they canunderstand about why they need
help and what resources areavailable, that's a that's a
(38:47):
thing where parents can helpstudents who are headed to
college.
Let's let's look and see whatare the resources that are there
for you.
Um, but sometimes I thinkcollege, you know, I think
colleges work hard on that.
I I work a lot with studentscoming in to college.
Um and the college works hard tomake sure they know there's a
(39:09):
writing center, there's atutoring center, the librarians
will help you and all of this.
But just helping them know whatthe resources are doesn't mean
they will pre be be proactive inasking for it.
Yes.
Um, so it's a combination of youknow, education, knowing what's
there, but understanding why Imight need it and then how to
(39:34):
ask for the for the help.
It's really complex.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
Yeah, and that is one of the things that I
mentioned in the piece is thatsometimes, like I said, you
know, students, at least in theschool setting, get to meet with
somebody every day, and theydon't even have to work at
something and reach a point offrustration before, you know,
without an adult being rightthere.
And so I have had students whosay, Well, I don't even know how
(40:01):
to articulate what I don'tunderstand.
Well, that is that is a problem.
And um, when somebody is alwaysthere, I mean, I have friends
who are um college admissionconsultants who help students
work with their search and theytalk to the, you know, and
that's neurotypical uh studentsabout a tutor comes every week
(40:24):
to do this and a tutor comesevery week to do that.
And so, you know, you can gettutoring at college, and if your
family has enough, you know,financial resources, you can
find somebody to tutor thestudent.
But I still think that that thatlack of confidence and the worry
about, well, am I onlysuccessful at this because
(40:45):
there's always somebody there tohelp me?
Um, and you know, also myexperience with college students
is it's certainly possible theywill not be able to find
somebody willing to tutor themat 2 a.m., which is when they're
doing the assignment that's dueat nine when class starts.
SPEAKER_03 (41:02):
So that's true.
Student hours are a little bitdifferent.
Um, but that then that helpsthem, you know, begin to think
about um procrastination andplanning ahead and not leaving
things to.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat are all woven together.
Um, and I, you know, I I I'dlike in your article, um, I
(41:26):
mean, to begin to try to pullthis together, um, that you you
do make the point that that thisshouldn't wait until we're about
to head off to college.
This is this is a long, it's along-term process.
And and what they're if youstart really early with small
(41:49):
steps, then the bigger steps aregoing to be easier later.
But if you wait until the end, Iyou know, like going back to our
w one of my favorites, JessicaLeahy, um, her other book, The
Addiction Inoculation, which isa great book, um, but she she
(42:11):
talks about, you know, you don'twait until your student's about
to head off to college and thensay, we now have to talk about
alcohol and drugs.
Um, but it starts even, youknow, when they're very, very
young, and saying, you know,this is this is mommy's
prescription, and see it has hername on it, and so only I, you
know, can can take it.
(42:32):
And and then gradually you youwork up.
And uh, I think keeping that inmind in terms of being
transparent early on doesn'tmean you have to spill
everything in every last detail.
It's just beginning tounderstand and letting it grow.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Right, it should be age appropriate.
Um, but I I think trying toshield them from everything is
um going to create problems forthem down the road.
And you know, we you you I Ichallenged you earlier when we
said you said we want to supportthem.
(43:12):
Well, support them in what?
And presumably the answer isbecoming an independent, you
know person with a sense ofagency and a sense of purpose.
And um sometimes what we do forour our students out of love
does not enhance, you know,doesn't move them toward that
(43:35):
goal.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
Yeah, that's a great thought to to end this with.
And it goes back back to wherewe started, and that idea of
direct and meaningfulconversations at whatever level,
um, and really thinking aboutwhat that end goal is.
(43:58):
Um thanks for letting me pickyour brain about your article.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
Sorry, never really answered the provided a good uh
definition of transparency.
Hopefully, we explained it evenif we didn't perfectly explain
it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:10):
Sometimes you have to go around it um and and you
and you wind up on it.
But it's it's direct andmeaningful and um talking about
the practical realities um andall of that.
So I hope it's been helpful toparents.
Um and we we mentioned you knowa whole bunch of things.
We've mentioned a couple ofbooks, we've mentioned articles.
(44:31):
I know you have a couple ofother articles that probably
relate.
So we're gonna list all of thosethings in the show notes so
people can follow up and um andwe will also um if if they want
to look for this article, it'son your website, ldadvisory.com.
Um, and we'll link link to that.
(44:52):
In the show notes so people canfollow up.
And thanks to everybody forsticking with us to the end of
this roundabout conversation.
And we'll see you next time.
Thanks, Vicki.
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