June 3, 2026 • 52 mins
“What are you going to do with that?” is a question raised by the parents of many students who declare their primary interest is in the humanities. We wondered the same thing, so we decided to have a conversation with two faculty members who teach in a new college major – Applied Humanities. In this episode, we were joined by Professors Lindsay Illich (Writing) and Robert Smid (Philosophy) to talk about how majoring in Applied Humanities can prepare students for careers, and for a life of meaning. Rob and Lindsay helped us unpack why humanities majors have declined, what families are really anxious about, and why this new approach called Applied Humanities (or another similar name) is gaining momentum.
Thank you for listening!
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SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already incollege, this podcast is for
you.
You'll find food for thought andinformation about college and
about navigating that delicatebalance of guidance,
involvement, and knowing when toget out of the way.
(01:24):
Join your hosts, Vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration of theamazing experience of having a
child in college.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the place where we talkabout the role of parenting
through when our kids are inhigh school, through college,
and then through those years ofcollege to the years after.
Our role really changes as wemove along.
(02:00):
My name is Lynn Abrahams, and Iuh work with college students,
have worked with collegestudents for many years,
students who have learningdifferences.
And I've worked with theirfamilies as well.
But my real qualification isthat I'm a mom of two sons who
have gone through, in, around,and out of the college world.
(02:23):
So I'm here to share that aswell.
I'm here with my good friend andcolleague, Vicki Nelson, and
with also some other people, butshe will she will introduce
that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Well, we'll start with me.
Um I'm Vicki Nelson, and I amthe co-host of this podcast, and
I am uh a faculty member and Iteach communication.
Um, a lot of first-yearstudents, so I I work with
college students all the time.
Uh, but like Lynn, my probablyeven more important uh
(02:56):
qualification is that I am themom of three daughters.
Lynn has the boys, I have thegirls.
Uh, and they have all gone tocollege and they've all come out
the other side, and we are allhere still to tell the story.
So we've survived survived that.
And we are here with a couple ofguests today, and we're very
(03:16):
excited because they are um theyhave a lot to share with us, but
they also are colleagues from uhour college.
So um, so they're people weknow, and that's always kind of
fun.
Uh, and we'll hear a little bitabout them.
I'm going to ask them, we'regoing to talk about um a new
major that uh that our collegehas just introduced, but is an
(03:40):
up-and-coming uh sort of area.
So it's something I think that alot of students and parents are
going to be hearing more about.
So I'm going to let our guestsintroduce themselves.
Lindsay, you want to go first?
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
Um, my name is Lindsay Illick.
I'm the director of the writingprogram at Curry College.
Um, and I'm also a writer.
Um, uh I'm a poet.
Um, I'm writing a novel rightnow.
Um, and I also have a book thatwas written for um high school
teachers of English who werewanting to incorporate
(04:15):
contemporary poetry, which isvery intimidating for some
people, even English teachers,even high school English
teachers.
Um, so thanks for having me.
unknown (04:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (04:25):
Rob?
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Uh yeah, I'm Robert Smid.
I teach uh philosophy andreligious studies here at the
college.
And I should probably also add,I'm in the midst of exactly what
this podcast talks about.
I've got one daughter incollege, so we've been through
the transition once, anddaughter number two is right in
the thick of starting to look atcolleges.
(04:46):
She's a junior in high schoolnow.
So I'm surprised at howdifferent the experience can be
for two kids that grew uptogether.
So I can only imagine what itis, you know, for all different
kinds of families looking atthis process.
So thanks from all of us to thetwo of you for doing this
podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
Well, you know, we started this podcast, and well,
we I started the website um 17years ago, and the podcast's
been around for seven, but westarted um because we had kids
headed to college and we wereoverwhelmed by the process.
And we said, we work in highered, and we're still overwhelmed
(05:27):
by the process.
What must it be like for peoplewho don't?
So we hope that um that you knowthat we're helping helping
people navigate this journeyjust a little bit, as we have
all lived and are living it.
So we want to start with somebasics.
We're talking about somethingcalled applied humanities.
(05:47):
And so I think the the to startto borrow from the sound of
music, let's start at the verybeginning um and maybe ask, what
do we mean by the humanities?
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Thanks.
And and that's a great question.
One of the really difficultthings about developing an
applied humanities course ispeople feel as though they're
they understand what the twowords mean somewhat.
Uh but if you ask people whatthe humanities are in general,
just speaking from working withstudents about this, you get a
lot of blank stares.
Right.
(06:20):
Uh they tend to be familiar withthe disciplines that make it up
because they've done some ofthis in in high school, right?
So it includes things likehistory or literature or
philosophy or religious studies,just to name a few, right?
But what humanities does is itties all those together as as if
to say that they're aftersomething that's overlapping
(06:40):
enough that the the umbrellaterm makes some sense, right?
So to answer your question moredirectly, I describe the
humanities as a whole of reallythe study of what it is to be
human.
And what I mean by that is thestudy of how we create meaning,
value, purpose in our lives, andhow in doing that, we're really
(07:01):
just the latest iteration of awhole history of human beings
doing that.
Right.
So the disciplines that Imentioned before are really
different ways of doing thisthat that take that meaning
making as central.
And we'll probably get a chanceto talk quite a bit about
narrative, which is one of thekey ways that human beings do
this.
(07:22):
Um but all those disciplines endup eventually overlapping with
each other, at least at theirfringes, and have enough
coherence together in thatpursuit.
That that term humanities, Ithink, is ultimately helpful in
understanding what we're afterin all those different ways.
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
You know, as you describe it, they sound the
humanities as as a whole, itsounds so essential to who we
are as people and tounderstanding and all of that.
Um but uh a lot of the surveysand studies and information that
we've seen out there have toldus that that uh enrollment in
(08:04):
the humanities and interest inthe humanities in terms of
majors and for college studentsjust really seems to have
declined in the last uh severalyears.
Any any thoughts about wherethat comes from?
SPEAKER_05 (08:19):
I'll take this one.
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
Um anybody want to pick up on that?
SPEAKER_05 (08:23):
Sure, sure.
You know, at our college, as youknow, uh the fall is the time
when a lot of families arevisiting our campus and they
come and talk to us.
Um, when I talk with parents atthose open houses, I've noticed
over the years that more andmore of them want to talk about
(08:45):
viability in the marketplace andgetting jobs, and they're um
concerned, obviously, forgetting um a kind of value for
the money, right?
That they want this sense ofsecurity, like all of us, and I
have a senior in high schooltoo, so we're uh Rob and I are
(09:06):
on that same path right now,thinking about um what their
lives are gonna be likeafterwards.
They want their children to havesecurity um out of college.
Um, you know, as more peoplehave access to higher ed, and
I'm thinking generally likepost-World War II, the GI Bill,
(09:28):
as more and more people um cameto college, started um doing
this, um it really changed inits purpose and function in good
ways and in bad ways.
I mean, depending on who youtalk to.
Um, but this idea or notion ofuniversity higher ed having this
(09:50):
function of preparing you forthe workplace is now central for
better or worse.
We could talk about, you know,we're co-opting a neoliberal,
um, you know, purpose for highered, which is not how it was
originally conceived.
But I think that that's wherethis is coming from.
Um, not being able to pin downthis direct correlation in
(10:14):
fields of humanities to whatyou're what this prepares you
for specifically is, oh, I'mgonna borrow from Smid.
Um, we would say that it's not abug, it's a feature, but it
means that there's some riskinvolved, right?
Because you're not majoring incomputer engineering and then
(10:38):
getting a computer engineeringjob.
Um, you you can do a lot ofthings um with a humanities
degree.
Um as an undergraduate, I didn'tsee myself, I didn't know
anybody who was like a writer,quote unquote, you know.
I thought I was gonna go to lawschool and I majored in English
(10:59):
because I was told that wasgonna prepare me for the LSAT.
I needed to be a great writer.
Um, and then I went and fell inlove with books and writing and
things like that.
Um there, I for a lot ofprofessors, um, there's like I
have a few touchstone quotesthat I just have memorized, and
they like, if you're in any ofmy classes, you're gonna hear
(11:21):
those.
Um, one is Aristotle'sdefinition of rhetoric, the
ability in each particular caseto recognize the available means
of persuasion.
That I think when we're thinkingabout it's a it's a skill, it's
an ability, it's a faculty.
When I think about humanities,um this is specific to English,
but I think it captures kind ofthe project or endeavor of the
(11:43):
humanities that helps us thinkabout this application issue.
It's a quote by Matthew Arnold,who was a Victorianist.
He wrote about criticism.
And there's this essay he wrotein 1864 called The Function of
Criticism in the Present Time.
But it has this quote that's atouchstone for me when I think
(12:04):
about what are we up to?
Like, what are we doing?
Um, and it's the disinterestedendeavor to learn and propagate
the best that is known andthought in the world.
And when I unpack that, itspeaks to so many levels, to so
many things that the humanitiesprovide.
(12:25):
Um, you're talking about a valuejudgment.
What is the best that's thoughtin the world?
You're thinking about endeavorbeing a project.
You're thinking about thepresent tense, the best that is.
So it's an ongoing project.
Um, what is known and thought inthe world, this is about who we
(12:46):
are as humans, what we value.
And like when I think of those,when I think of what humanities
does, that that is like thething, right?
Well, your question was aboutthe decline of the humanities.
But I don't, you know, I thinkthose kinds of like crises, the
crisis of the humanities, um,those are like great fodder for
(13:09):
think pieces.
Right.
But I don't know that we're arewe ever done with those
questions?
I don't think so.
I think when we were developinguh an applied humanities major,
and you should know this goes bydifferent things at different
colleges and universities, andand we even grappled with what
(13:29):
do we call it?
Some people call this publichumanities, this applied
humanities.
It's this idea that thehumanities can be leveraged to
solve real problems in theworld.
Um, and that can be in um inpublic service, that could be in
government, that could be innonprofit, that could be in
(13:51):
teaching situations, that couldbe preparing you for graduate
school in your field, that couldbe um going into corporate
America.
There was a time when somethinglike 80% of CEOs had liberal
arts degrees.
You know, I don't know how truethat is anymore.
It once wasn't it.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Um so the the term applied humanities is fairly
new.
You know, I remember when mykids were looking at colleges,
that is not a term that came up.
Um why why do you think it'scoming up now?
What um you know, what's pushingthis forward?
SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
Um what made you need what made you decide to
create this matrix?
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
Let me take a stab at this.
Um it's in part a local contextthing, but it's also a broader
thing.
I know that on one of yourprevious episodes, you had the
president of the college on totalk about the job guarantee.
And that's something of ourlocal environment where it's
it's front and center for themission of the college here to
(15:01):
graduate, educate, and graduatestudents that are career ready.
SPEAKER_05 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Right.
And a large part of that ismaking sure that they have all
the resources to make sure thatthey, you know, know how to
interview and know how todevelop a resume and so forth.
But on our end of things withinthe classroom, it's also about
uh helping them know what skillsthat they have so that they can
communicate them, that they canleverage them, that they can
market them, that they can, asit were, apply them, right?
(15:28):
So, what this is, is it's reallyan attempt to take the kinds of
things that we've been doing inthe humanities, right?
The skill set is there, and tomake it more explicit, to give
students more practice inapplying it, and to make more,
to make them more aware thatthey have something to offer
based on their experience there.
(15:50):
I'll give you an example of whatI mean.
Um, if you think about hownarrative works, right?
Um in a more traditionalhumanities program that doesn't
uh that isn't leaning into theapplied aspect of it, it would
be entirely possible to discovera love of literature, right,
(16:11):
that that Lindsay had talkedabout before, but then to never
get past that.
And at that point, you may thengraduate knowing that you love
literature and knowing a lotabout the literature that you
love, but not having any kind oflanguage to bring with you into
the job market that says,Because of this, I have these
things to offer.
And so in developing an appliedhumanities course, what we're
(16:33):
trying to do is to take thoseskills.
There's still fundamental skillsin knowing how narrative works,
what makes for good, or wetalked about value and meaning,
what makes for good narrative isan open question, right?
But it's not arbitrary.
And to take those skills and tolearn to see narratives in the
world around you.
(16:53):
So what we see are our studentswithin our program being able to
do is find points of communityengagement where they work with
local communities in theirnarratives, right?
Which is to say, what is yournarrative?
Where does it show up?
Are you heard?
And we talk a lot about whetheror not people are heard as
(17:15):
though all we need to do is tomake sure that somebody is
listening in some place.
But that misses the powerdynamics of narratives, right?
And if you want to enter intothat power dynamic, a large part
of that is being able to notonly know your narrative when
you have it, but to work on therhetorical aspects of it to make
it land better with thecommunities around you.
(17:36):
That's how you enter into thatbroader space.
So I can see that, you know, insomething that people might be
more ready to say is ahumanities application, working
with local communities toarchive their experiences to
make sure that that's preservedand preserved in a way that
captures the meaning of theirhistory.
(17:57):
But I can also see it inboardrooms when you ask the
question, what is this company?
What is their narrative?
Who are they relative to theircommunity?
And to be able to leverage thatand to uh provide a compelling
narrative on that company'sbehalf is very different than
simply running a company in acommunity.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
So you're taking these these um humanities,
you're taking these these ideasand in a very concrete way
applying them to businesses orto you know people who are doing
work outside of the college.
Absolutely.
I love it.
SPEAKER_05 (18:35):
Yeah.
I'll I'll I'll give one example.
I'm I'm really glad that youwere even talking about
narrative and just from fiction,you know, when we learn about
the um how authors leverage thestakes of a story, like we need
to know what the stakes are.
Is someone gonna die?
(18:56):
Is someone going to, you know,get the promotion?
What is going on here?
When you let's take thatboardroom example.
Um if you don't introduce thiselement of the stakes of what is
going on here, you're missingout on an opportunity for people
to understand what the impact ofthat issue is gonna be.
(19:21):
Um I I just watched Project HailMary with my with my son, who
loves that kind of thing.
And powerful storytelling has asat its center a highlighting of
what the stakes, if we don'tsolve this problem, the sun is
going to go dim and we will alldie.
And that is the basis of now,let me tell you this story, and
(19:45):
you're invested because thestakes are so high.
SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
You know, in preparing for this interview, I
was reading an article in highered about a professor who taught
a course called um fiction forspecific purposes, you know,
specifically using literatureum, you know, to apply.
That touched my heart because Iwhen I went to college many
(20:10):
years ago, I started out as aliterature major because that
was my love.
But then I sort of shifted intopsychology and things that I
thought I could do as a job.
But the this is like connectingthe two as really interesting
stuff.
SPEAKER_05 (20:29):
Yeah, the the approach to business and
technical communications now hasat its center storytelling.
Yeah, storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, I the idea of being able to um uh uh
to apply uh these things that umthat we that we that some of us
love.
I was also a literature major,um and I became a teacher
because that was the only thingI thought I could do with
(21:00):
literature.
So um, you know, one of the oneof the things I read was um from
someone in the business worldwho who said the superpowers of
the future emanate from thehumanities, which is really such
a strong statement.
I and you've talked a lot aboutbut both of you have talked
about narrative and and andtelling the story.
(21:21):
What other what other uh whatwhat are the other some of the
other superpowers that thehumanities are going to give
students that they're gonna beable to you know formulate the
future?
Good question, Vicky.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Yeah, I like it.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Um yeah, but can you answer it?
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Well, let's try this on other sides.
Um, I've been thinking a lot aswe've been developing this
program about how this wouldchange how we teach our ethics
class, for example.
Right.
And I think more often than not,when students sign up for an
ethics class, they're signing upbecause this will help them
(21:58):
figure out what's the rightthing to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:00):
Or they need a work.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Or maybe, yeah, you know, it maybe it'll look good
on the resume because then maybethey're better people because
they've had this class.
Not a real clear sense of whatwe do in ethics.
And so when you go through thefirst couple weeks of class, you
basically blow the doors off andsay the reason why there's
ethics is because the rationalesthat we have for deciding among
conflicting options are not verygood.
(22:23):
This is the best that we have.
So get into the mud with us andstart working this stuff
through.
And then they often getfrustrated because they're like,
it's all gray, it's all justopinion and so forth.
And you spend the rest of thesemester sort of trying to work
with them to help help themdevelop the tools to join the
conversation at the level thatour our broader civilization is
(22:45):
is hopefully having it, right?
Now it's possible to leave that.
Without the supplied angle, withthe idea that, oh, well,
philosophers, they just like toargue.
So if you like to argue, thenyou can go in that class and you
can look at these hypotheticalsituations and you can try and
figure out what's the rightthing.
(23:06):
Um, or you know, if you careabout doing the right thing,
then maybe that's the class foryou.
But if you don't really careabout what somebody else thinks
you should do and you just doyou, as some of my students say,
um you don't need the class,right?
What an applied focus does for aclass like that is points
students towards the directapplications.
(23:28):
Anytime a company, for example,is making a decision about how
it's going to impact its localcommunity, it needs to defend
those claims.
Now, sometimes it simplydoesn't, and it does it in terms
of raw power.
That's a choice, but that'll bebrought into another
conversation that again willhave ethics at its root.
Is this the way that we shouldbe doing things?
(23:50):
Which is really a conversationabout what we think the
collective good is there.
We're negotiating socially howwe want our world to be.
And to me, that's that's thereal core of what ethics is.
And there you get to see it inits sort of natural habitat as
it's going on.
So the goal there is to start uhletting students see that what
(24:15):
they're talking about in atheoretical way within the
classroom actually has concreteeffects in the ways that we go
about shaping our world.
It's not just a if you want tobe able to speak more clearly
your truth, take this class.
That's good, that's valuable.
I wouldn't want to discountthat.
But it's also a function of ifyou want to have a hand in
(24:37):
shaping the world that you have,these are the tools that you
need.
And the more you can show thatyou have those tools, the more
you can demonstrate that youhave something to offer in those
public spheres.
SPEAKER_03 (24:50):
You know, it occurs to me that as less students are
applying it to humanities andand and very specifically trying
to be trained for a job, this isexactly what's missing, what
you're talking about.
You know, this this is themissing piece.
Um, so it makes sense to me thatmore and more colleges are
(25:14):
starting to offer this.
Um, you know, I'm curious toknow, um, like Rob, you're
teaching a class in this.
What are students' response tothe idea of applying humanities?
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Yeah, so this is our first time teaching that
introductory course.
So it's a little bit of learn asyou go.
You came in with, you know, youcome in with great ideas and
then you start seeing what worksand you adapt from there.
So it's it's been a journey.
But the things that I think havehad the most impact on students
in that course so far are inareas that you might not expect.
(25:48):
Uh, we talked, for example, alot about the process of
curation and archiving.
And at first glance, you mightthink, well, those are very
rarefied fields.
Probably not many, if any of ourstudents are planning to go into
curation or archiving as theiruh intended career path, right?
(26:09):
But that's not really why wecover it in the course.
It's instead a way of helpingstudents to see the world around
them as being fundamentallyshaped by those practices in
ways that impact them.
So I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
Uh, when we talked aboutcuration, we had a chance to
(26:30):
look at several different artexhibits where the focus was not
on the artwork itself or thecreation of that art, right?
There you start to get into alittle bit of a different realm.
We looked at it from theperspective of how is the art
presented?
What does that presentation tellus about what the assumptions
are, about what the art is, whatits value is, who it's meant
(26:55):
for?
You know, so students got to askquestions like when I read the
little plinth, the littleinformation packet beneath the
work of art, how muchinformation does it include?
And how much is it not saying?
What is it assuming about thekind of people that read that?
Where is the artwork placed?
Is it out of the way, whichmeans it's really only for
(27:15):
people who already know thatit's there, who already take
time out of their schedule to goand see it?
Or is it something that'sactually meant for the broader
public?
So we did this both on Curry'scampus, and we also went down to
the Museum of Fine Arts to seethe differences in how curation
is approached there, with prettysignificant differences, and
(27:36):
students were able to pick up onthis.
This question about why do wehave art at all?
What is it supposed to be doing?
Who is it supposed to beaccessible to and what are we
doing to make it accessible?
Right?
So you get to start talkingabout things like is the art
there because it's pretty or isit there because it's
(27:57):
challenging?
Does good art make you feelhappy or uncomfortable?
Questions that normally I thinkmaybe for a student coming into
college, there may be artaround, but that's just sort of
decoration.
Right?
And we're trying to shift theway that they see the art that's
around them as a reflection ofwhat their context values.
(28:22):
And a lot of times the answerswere uncomfortable answers.
And that opens the door then tookay, if you know, as as Lindsay
talked about before, if thisreflects a lot of neoliberalism,
where it's only valuable ifsomebody will pay you money to
own it.
If that's the underlying valueof what determines where our art
(28:43):
is, you gotta wonder how elseyou're being valued as a person,
what your commitments matter,and you get to do the whole
cascading process with them.
So some little thing likefinding a piece of art and
thinking about how it's placedopens up all these doors to what
are your possibilities, wherecan you see power dynamics in
(29:04):
the world around you, and whatcan you do to help make that
world a little bit more the waythat you think that it probably
should be.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
And you know, it would make if I could take my
kids back and send them back tocollege, I think I'd be, you
know, encouraging them to lookinto something like this because
of the um the appreciation, thegrowth, the understanding that
that's happening for them.
I want to take it sort of, okay,now they're seniors and and
(29:47):
going out into the world.
Um, and you, you know, you'veboth talked about narrative and
story.
And one of the things I so oftentalk to students about is
telling their the theirtranscript story that that when
they have an interview, whenthey're when they're talking to
someone in that way, what's thestory that their transcript
(30:09):
tells?
And sometimes it's, you know, II I failed three classes in my
first year, and here's what Ilearned from that, and here's
where I grew.
So it's it's how can I how can Itake all of these wonderful
things that I've learned, and itdoesn't matter what your major
is, um, and talk to someoneabout what I'm going to be able
(30:32):
to do for them.
You know, here's the story ofwhat I've learned, and here's
how I can apply it.
Um any thoughts about howstudents can take this and put
it out there so that someoneelse will understand the value?
SPEAKER_05 (30:51):
I think you're speaking to something that uh we
recognize as humanists, and ithas to do with telling our the
story of who we are, the storyof your life.
Who am I?
Who do I want to be?
Um, when we're using our voicesin that way and telling our own
(31:12):
stories, it's very magicalbecause we are telling a story
that we are becoming.
It's sort of like we're settinga pin at where the story's
going, and we're going towardthat thing.
So um this is something we askstudents to do when we ask them
(31:37):
to reflect on what they'relearning, on how they see
themselves applying it.
And this starts, this starts inthe first year, and it's
something that happens, itshould be happening in every
class.
So that by the time a student isin their senior year, I think
(31:57):
they're they have a very strongsense of what that, who am I,
what is the story of mytranscript, but more broadly,
the story of myself.
Um, what is my identity?
What is my place in this world?
And I think, you know, these arethe questions at the heart of
the humanities that people mightfind very abstract.
(32:23):
Um, but there's a place forthose questions, even in applied
humanities, where we're sayingthere's a value for these
things, a direct applicationthat you will find um invaluable
in your professional life.
But like don't sleep on, as mystudents say, like, don't sleep
(32:45):
on the fact that these are alsotools that help you have a good
life and have goodrelationships.
Um, so that did I, Rob, youwanna, I feel like this is a
good place for you to weighinto.
Because I start talking, I startanswering the question, and then
I'm like, oh wait, I gotta go onto this other thing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
Yeah, I mean, some of this is is a question about
the anxiety of the major.
And I think one of the thingsthat we need to bring into this
conversation has been theincrease in the number of people
that have gotten college degreesover the last several decades,
right?
We talk about contracting umstudent enrollment now, but this
(33:29):
is at the edge, the the backedge of a wave of significantly
increased higher education.
Um, and you know, I'm thinkingback to when when Lindsay had
noted that it used to be thecase that a uh an overwhelming
number of CEOs would have umhumanities and liberal arts
degrees, right?
That's reflective of a differentsort of approach to education,
(33:52):
where you had a certain elitepopulation that could afford to
get higher education, and youcould afford to major in
classics or uh Italian or or soforth, and you could rely on a
uh a network that's outs outsideof that to sort of bring you
into your your career path.
(34:13):
Yeah um, so yeah, you might beable to draw on your your uh
your training in college in somesense, but people could also
say, like, oh yeah, that's fouryears for you to like go find
yourself and grow up and learnhow to do something
independently and so forth,right?
And the challenge with therebeing so much more competition
(34:35):
in the college educated groupnow, uh you I think one of the
manifestations of that is thisreal career focus.
It's it's super competitive.
You can't come out and say,Well, I'm a college college
educated person, so of courseyou should hire me, it'll be
great for you.
And they're like, Yeah, put youryour resume on the pile, right?
So I think uh one way to thinkabout what applied humanities is
(34:58):
is it's a response to thatshift, right?
It's it's I think beingresponsible to that legitimate
concern about how wedifferentiate ourselves.
And I think we need to do that.
I don't think that there are toomany people left who can say,
(35:18):
well, just go to college forfour years, do what you want,
we'll figure it out when you'redone.
Don't worry about skills, justyou know, see in four years.
Um economically, with theincreasing costs of education,
that's not a feasible uh uhapproach for most people.
Um so we're playing into that.
(35:40):
Uh I think in a good way.
The only thing that gives mepause is uh the extent to which
people may see it as a sort ofneoliberal move, where we're
trying to effectively economizethe humanities.
So we'll give this to you, andits sole value will be how you
(36:00):
can translate this into money.
Yes, you need to have gainfulemployment.
And the commitment of this majoris that we're pretty confident
that if you do this well, thisis exactly what we say about the
job guarantee, by the way, thatif you do this well, if you work
with us to develop those skills,you'll know what those skills
are and you can market them,right?
(36:22):
I think that's generally true,but I would also want to hold on
to the thing that I think we'vealso been indicating throughout
this interview that the kinds ofthings that you learn to do here
are the things that ultimatelyyou will prize most about who
you become in that work world,right?
That developing meaning andvalue and purpose is not an
(36:43):
ancillary kind of you can dothis if you want, or just let it
take care of itself and and andgo and make money.
These things are inherentlylinked.
And when you think about howpeople change careers, that's
another thing.
It's a uh I think lying in thebackground here, um what a
(37:04):
college does is not so muchprepare people for a career
anymore.
I'm not sure if it ever did, butI think we were able to hold on
to that because people were muchmore prone to be in one career
for their whole working lives.
The rate at which people changenot just jobs, but also careers,
has a lot to do, I think, withwhat drives them, what they want
(37:28):
to do, who they want to be.
And so I think if we can armstudents not only with
transferable, marketable skills,but also a strong skill set in
knowing what drives them, whenthat's changing, and what it
means for how they should occupytheir time.
That's how I think we serve ourstudents best as they make make
(37:48):
their way into the job market.
SPEAKER_03 (37:51):
You know, what one of the one of the last questions
I had was what how do youpresent this to parents who are
concerned, who are nervous?
Um, I think you just answeredthat question.
I'm thinking the same thing.
You know, you just said what Ias a parent want to hear about
(38:12):
this new trend.
I mean, this is pretty exciting.
Um, is there anything else youwant to say to parents to help
give them more information aboutthis?
SPEAKER_05 (38:24):
Well, I mean, top of mind right now for parents, for
educators, you you you can'topen up the chronicle of higher
education without seeing AI,right?
And so, I mean, I think about umnow I think parents, myself
(38:44):
included, we're thinking aboutwhat is it?
What is this is there this valuehere that's go going to um gonna
transcend what's going on withAI?
So is there something here thatis going to insulate us from the
(39:07):
draining of power in thatdegree, right?
And um, you know, we weren't weweren't thinking explicitly
about AI when we were puttingthis degree together, but it was
happening in the same timeline,right?
And now we're seeing theweaknesses around AI have to do
(39:31):
with critical thinking, ethicalthinking, all the ways of
thinking that are um at theheart of a major like this.
Um, so you know in writing wetalk about, or we're trying to
as hard as we can to think aboutthe rise of AI as a shift back
(39:57):
to thinking about process, whichis what we always said it was
about anyway.
So when I'm thinking about AI,I'm thinking opportunistically
about let's get back to thequestions at the heart of how do
we know things?
What do we value?
What is this about?
What are the power dynamics?
(40:18):
And and so if you're worriedabout AI, um, this is these are
the kinds of majors that um aregoing to be the things that
can't be replicated byartificial intelligence.
That's fascinating to me.
SPEAKER_02 (40:35):
And you know, I think it thinking that way, what
both of you have just all talkedabout really does uh help
parents not be so anxious whentheir student, yeah.
I mean, the applied the appliedhumanities as a as a major and
(40:55):
as a focus is wonderful.
But even if the student comeshome and says, I want to be a
literature major, or I want tomajor in philosophy, and and the
question, well, what are yougoing to do with that?
And I think it if parents reallythink in terms of what are the
the basics that students are aregetting from those, it really
(41:16):
does help with that kind ofautomatic nervous energy of
well, what do you but you've gotto be able to support yourself,
you've got to be able to get ajob.
Um, and I also think about umthe possibilities of majors and
minors that that students whomajor in applied humanities but
(41:38):
minor perhaps in something alittle more I don't want to say
practical, but that you knowthat that we would think of as
being marketable or the otherway around.
The other way around, major insomething either way, but the
balance of the two things um canbe really important.
Um and I say, and so I think forme, one of the values I I hope
(42:03):
from parents listening to all ofthis is is to know some
questions to ask in theadmissions process of do you
have this kind of major or howdo some of the humanities
address some of these things?
What what's your what's yourschool's thought about AI and
(42:24):
and and all of those sorts ofthings really is is something
for parents to consider and askabout in the admissions process.
And could be that wasn't aquestion, that was just a whole
lot of but it this is exciting.
Um yeah, so so uh how if parentshear this, and we hope they do,
(42:49):
um, and they say, Oh yeah, thatyeah, that's kind of
interesting.
How can I I I wish I could findout a little more.
I mean, this was really helpful.
This is a really goodintroduction to this
up-and-coming field.
Is there any way?
I mean, is it is it just askingquestions that parents can learn
more?
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
Well, maybe um maybe we've gone full circle, right?
And we we end where we began.
Uh, narrative is powerful here.
And one way of doing that is totry and broadcast that on things
like a uh a college website,right?
So look at the programs thatyour child might be interested
in.
unknown (43:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
And and actually go to those pages and and look at
how the colleges that you'relooking at frame what it is that
they're doing.
If you've got a program that hasan applied focus in it, they'll
be forthcoming about that.
That if it's intentional, right?
Um, whereas it's it, I'm surethere are plenty of departments
that don't have that focus whereyou might not get all the things
(43:52):
that we've been talking abouthere, or maybe the extra impetus
is going to be on your child tomake sure that they get that on
their own out of the program,right?
So I would start by looking atthe sites themselves.
That's where colleges tell theirstories.
But I would suggest going theextra step.
If you have a child that'sinterested in the humanities, I
(44:13):
would reach out to the facultyin the colleges that you're
interested in.
Once you've figured out whereyour child's most interested in
going, have them start to reachout and talk to the faculty
there.
Does this seem like the kind ofprogram they're going to be able
to participate in where they'regoing to be able to have this
career focus in mind, wherethey're going to be able to get
(44:35):
out into their community, wherethey're going to be able to not
only develop, but also be ableto say what their skills are, to
develop that narrative of theirown?
SPEAKER_04 (44:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
I know, for example, on our page for the Applied
Communities page, we've gotlinks there where you can.
Connect with faculty teaching inthe department, right?
Um, and I would highly encourageuh families to do that.
Best usually if it comes fromthe child, because uh child
almost adult at that point,right?
(45:08):
But that kind of agency to makesure that this is the right fit
for them.
Um and maybe I'll just add thisone little biographical point.
Uh I came out with a businessdegree.
Um I was really interested inreligious studies, but I had
these conversations with myparents multiple times.
We love the fact that you lovereligious studies, learning
(45:30):
about all these differentreligions, and isn't it
fascinating what they're doingin this part of the world and
that part of the world, and whathappens when they grow up and
what happens when they die?
That's great.
But what are you gonna do withthat is a question that I got
asked a lot, right?
And so I came out with abusiness major.
I was prepared to go intoaccounting.
And I'm sure that that's a greatpath for a lot of people, right?
(45:51):
We need good accounts.
It's it's not to cast any shade,as they say, on accounting.
But I think also part of being aparent of college bound or
college in, for lack of a betterword, uh, children, is trying to
balance that with what drivesthem.
I mean, here I am teachingphilosophy and religious studies
(46:13):
because I couldn't get it out ofmy craw.
unknown (46:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
Right.
Now I wish they had programslike this back a few decades ago
when I was going through mydegree.
I would have loved to have beenable to be better at not only
speaking what I had learned, butbeing able to think about
relevant career paths.
Not because I don't like the onethat I'm in, but it never hurts
to be able to think more broadlyabout what you can do with this.
(46:39):
So I think students are actuallyin a better position now because
of these developments than wewere, say, 20, 30 years ago at
this point.
Right.
But you'll only find out byasking.
So follow the narratives, iswhat I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
Good advice.
Lindsay, you're nodding andnodding and nodding.
SPEAKER_05 (46:57):
Oh well no, I'll I'll add to that to ask
questions about the faculty umand their projects, because it
it you might find out that thereis a faculty member who, you
know, loves fly fishing andloves insects, and you're gonna
study that with them orsomething like that.
(47:19):
Um, we have a faculty member umin writing, um, Kelly Wheeler,
who has um this project thatgrew out of her dissertation,
the swastika project, um, aboutswastika-based hate crimes,
where they happened in highered, what the responses were.
Um, we learned so much in thatproject about um how to so just
(47:44):
think this is total talk aboutapplication.
What if something happened likethat on your campus?
What do you do?
How do you um help and healwhat's go in your community?
What is the best course ofaction?
And you have this thing to lookat and figure out um how those
things happen.
(48:04):
Um so I would encourage peopleto kind of look look at, and
that's easy to find.
Like most colleges look like Robwas talking about, um, highlight
those kinds of um projects thatfaculty members are involved in.
I'd also um have I would askabout things like internships
(48:26):
where where there it's a it's asafe way to practice like some
of those things.
Um and you know, also I'll saylike, you know, the thing about
um you couldn't stop thinkingabout that thing, like the
religious studies.
Um, this kind of appliedthinking is even happening
happening in PhD programs.
(48:47):
They talk about the alt-acmarket.
That's the alternative toacademics.
So they're even thinking in umPhD programs in English.
When you are about to be on themarket, they're even preparing
people to think about um careersoutside of academe.
(49:07):
Whereas before, that was never athing.
You know, you're you're gonna bea professor, you're going to get
your PhD, this is your path,you're gonna be a professor, but
that is not the case anymore.
So I would say, even, you know,to those parents who, you know,
have a student, I often see thisin my neurodivergent students
who have their really deepdiving into this one thing, you
(49:31):
know, there is a place forexpert, expert knowledge that
not only in academe, but outsideacademe.
And like, wow, you know, fan theflames on that, you know.
That uh we we uh Lynn knowsthis.
That hyper focus, I mean, let'spowerful.
(49:53):
It's very powerful.
And looking back, how manycollege professors do you think
were neurodivergent in that way,you know?
SPEAKER_03 (50:02):
Yeah, doctors and lawyers, and yes, good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
I I think these are wonderful pieces of advice to
leave this with.
And I my only hope is thateverybody has stayed with us to
to to this point to kind of butbut I think it it sort of pulls
together a lot of a lot of thesethings.
And the idea of uh I mean, thereare things that we have talked
about for years of encouragingyour student to do the
(50:30):
investigation.
I really was happy, Rob, whenyou said have your student to
not you know mom or dad uhchecking things out and um and
and following following the youknow, following your dream,
follow, following, you know,what what you love and finding
finding how that works.
(50:50):
So um people should expect tohear a lot more, I think, in the
in the coming years about umwhether it's called applied
humanities or whatever else.
Um and I think it comes rightback to it was you know, Rob
wanted to bring us back to wherewe started, and I I like that in
terms of the humanities beingabout what it means to be human.
(51:13):
And um, and and the more thatyour student can do that, the
better.
So thank you both, um LindsayIllich and Rob Smid um for
designing this major, along withI know you didn't do it alone.
That was a it there was a wholegroup of people, um, and that
that there's a whole notherpodcast in that whole idea of
(51:38):
things that are umcross-departmental and
interdepartmental andcollaborative, and more and more
of that happening.
And sort of leave leave thiswith a teaser um for parents uh
and students if you're in thethat admissions process to sort
of investigate what kinds of youknow, you don't have to be in
(52:00):
such a small box anymore, whatkinds of cross-departmental
things are happening.
So thank you so much, and thankyou.
Thank you.
This was great.
Thank you for a greatconversation.
And thanks to everyone who hasstayed with us to the end.
And so we'll see you next time.
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already incollege, this podcast is for
you.
You'll find food for thought andinformation about college and
about navigating that delicatebalance of guidance,
involvement, and knowing when toget out of the way.
(01:24):
Join your hosts, Vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration of theamazing experience of having a
child in college.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the place where we talkabout the role of parenting
through when our kids are inhigh school, through college,
and then through those years ofcollege to the years after.
Our role really changes as wemove along.
(02:00):
My name is Lynn Abrahams, and Iuh work with college students,
have worked with collegestudents for many years,
students who have learningdifferences.
And I've worked with theirfamilies as well.
But my real qualification isthat I'm a mom of two sons who
have gone through, in, around,and out of the college world.
(02:23):
So I'm here to share that aswell.
I'm here with my good friend andcolleague, Vicki Nelson, and
with also some other people, butshe will she will introduce
that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Well, we'll start with me.
Um I'm Vicki Nelson, and I amthe co-host of this podcast, and
I am uh a faculty member and Iteach communication.
Um, a lot of first-yearstudents, so I I work with
college students all the time.
Uh, but like Lynn, my probablyeven more important uh
(02:56):
qualification is that I am themom of three daughters.
Lynn has the boys, I have thegirls.
Uh, and they have all gone tocollege and they've all come out
the other side, and we are allhere still to tell the story.
So we've survived survived that.
And we are here with a couple ofguests today, and we're very
(03:16):
excited because they are um theyhave a lot to share with us, but
they also are colleagues from uhour college.
So um, so they're people weknow, and that's always kind of
fun.
Uh, and we'll hear a little bitabout them.
I'm going to ask them, we'regoing to talk about um a new
major that uh that our collegehas just introduced, but is an
(03:40):
up-and-coming uh sort of area.
So it's something I think that alot of students and parents are
going to be hearing more about.
So I'm going to let our guestsintroduce themselves.
Lindsay, you want to go first?
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
Um, my name is Lindsay Illick.
I'm the director of the writingprogram at Curry College.
Um, and I'm also a writer.
Um, uh I'm a poet.
Um, I'm writing a novel rightnow.
Um, and I also have a book thatwas written for um high school
teachers of English who werewanting to incorporate
(04:15):
contemporary poetry, which isvery intimidating for some
people, even English teachers,even high school English
teachers.
Um, so thanks for having me.
unknown (04:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (04:25):
Rob?
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Uh yeah, I'm Robert Smid.
I teach uh philosophy andreligious studies here at the
college.
And I should probably also add,I'm in the midst of exactly what
this podcast talks about.
I've got one daughter incollege, so we've been through
the transition once, anddaughter number two is right in
the thick of starting to look atcolleges.
(04:46):
She's a junior in high schoolnow.
So I'm surprised at howdifferent the experience can be
for two kids that grew uptogether.
So I can only imagine what itis, you know, for all different
kinds of families looking atthis process.
So thanks from all of us to thetwo of you for doing this
podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
Well, you know, we started this podcast, and well,
we I started the website um 17years ago, and the podcast's
been around for seven, but westarted um because we had kids
headed to college and we wereoverwhelmed by the process.
And we said, we work in highered, and we're still overwhelmed
(05:27):
by the process.
What must it be like for peoplewho don't?
So we hope that um that you knowthat we're helping helping
people navigate this journeyjust a little bit, as we have
all lived and are living it.
So we want to start with somebasics.
We're talking about somethingcalled applied humanities.
(05:47):
And so I think the the to startto borrow from the sound of
music, let's start at the verybeginning um and maybe ask, what
do we mean by the humanities?
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Thanks.
And and that's a great question.
One of the really difficultthings about developing an
applied humanities course ispeople feel as though they're
they understand what the twowords mean somewhat.
Uh but if you ask people whatthe humanities are in general,
just speaking from working withstudents about this, you get a
lot of blank stares.
Right.
(06:20):
Uh they tend to be familiar withthe disciplines that make it up
because they've done some ofthis in in high school, right?
So it includes things likehistory or literature or
philosophy or religious studies,just to name a few, right?
But what humanities does is itties all those together as as if
to say that they're aftersomething that's overlapping
(06:40):
enough that the the umbrellaterm makes some sense, right?
So to answer your question moredirectly, I describe the
humanities as a whole of reallythe study of what it is to be
human.
And what I mean by that is thestudy of how we create meaning,
value, purpose in our lives, andhow in doing that, we're really
(07:01):
just the latest iteration of awhole history of human beings
doing that.
Right.
So the disciplines that Imentioned before are really
different ways of doing thisthat that take that meaning
making as central.
And we'll probably get a chanceto talk quite a bit about
narrative, which is one of thekey ways that human beings do
this.
(07:22):
Um but all those disciplines endup eventually overlapping with
each other, at least at theirfringes, and have enough
coherence together in thatpursuit.
That that term humanities, Ithink, is ultimately helpful in
understanding what we're afterin all those different ways.
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
You know, as you describe it, they sound the
humanities as as a whole, itsounds so essential to who we
are as people and tounderstanding and all of that.
Um but uh a lot of the surveysand studies and information that
we've seen out there have toldus that that uh enrollment in
(08:04):
the humanities and interest inthe humanities in terms of
majors and for college studentsjust really seems to have
declined in the last uh severalyears.
Any any thoughts about wherethat comes from?
SPEAKER_05 (08:19):
I'll take this one.
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
Um anybody want to pick up on that?
SPEAKER_05 (08:23):
Sure, sure.
You know, at our college, as youknow, uh the fall is the time
when a lot of families arevisiting our campus and they
come and talk to us.
Um, when I talk with parents atthose open houses, I've noticed
over the years that more andmore of them want to talk about
(08:45):
viability in the marketplace andgetting jobs, and they're um
concerned, obviously, forgetting um a kind of value for
the money, right?
That they want this sense ofsecurity, like all of us, and I
have a senior in high schooltoo, so we're uh Rob and I are
(09:06):
on that same path right now,thinking about um what their
lives are gonna be likeafterwards.
They want their children to havesecurity um out of college.
Um, you know, as more peoplehave access to higher ed, and
I'm thinking generally likepost-World War II, the GI Bill,
(09:28):
as more and more people um cameto college, started um doing
this, um it really changed inits purpose and function in good
ways and in bad ways.
I mean, depending on who youtalk to.
Um, but this idea or notion ofuniversity higher ed having this
(09:50):
function of preparing you forthe workplace is now central for
better or worse.
We could talk about, you know,we're co-opting a neoliberal,
um, you know, purpose for highered, which is not how it was
originally conceived.
But I think that that's wherethis is coming from.
Um, not being able to pin downthis direct correlation in
(10:14):
fields of humanities to whatyou're what this prepares you
for specifically is, oh, I'mgonna borrow from Smid.
Um, we would say that it's not abug, it's a feature, but it
means that there's some riskinvolved, right?
Because you're not majoring incomputer engineering and then
(10:38):
getting a computer engineeringjob.
Um, you you can do a lot ofthings um with a humanities
degree.
Um as an undergraduate, I didn'tsee myself, I didn't know
anybody who was like a writer,quote unquote, you know.
I thought I was gonna go to lawschool and I majored in English
(10:59):
because I was told that wasgonna prepare me for the LSAT.
I needed to be a great writer.
Um, and then I went and fell inlove with books and writing and
things like that.
Um there, I for a lot ofprofessors, um, there's like I
have a few touchstone quotesthat I just have memorized, and
they like, if you're in any ofmy classes, you're gonna hear
(11:21):
those.
Um, one is Aristotle'sdefinition of rhetoric, the
ability in each particular caseto recognize the available means
of persuasion.
That I think when we're thinkingabout it's a it's a skill, it's
an ability, it's a faculty.
When I think about humanities,um this is specific to English,
but I think it captures kind ofthe project or endeavor of the
(11:43):
humanities that helps us thinkabout this application issue.
It's a quote by Matthew Arnold,who was a Victorianist.
He wrote about criticism.
And there's this essay he wrotein 1864 called The Function of
Criticism in the Present Time.
But it has this quote that's atouchstone for me when I think
(12:04):
about what are we up to?
Like, what are we doing?
Um, and it's the disinterestedendeavor to learn and propagate
the best that is known andthought in the world.
And when I unpack that, itspeaks to so many levels, to so
many things that the humanitiesprovide.
(12:25):
Um, you're talking about a valuejudgment.
What is the best that's thoughtin the world?
You're thinking about endeavorbeing a project.
You're thinking about thepresent tense, the best that is.
So it's an ongoing project.
Um, what is known and thought inthe world, this is about who we
(12:46):
are as humans, what we value.
And like when I think of those,when I think of what humanities
does, that that is like thething, right?
Well, your question was aboutthe decline of the humanities.
But I don't, you know, I thinkthose kinds of like crises, the
crisis of the humanities, um,those are like great fodder for
(13:09):
think pieces.
Right.
But I don't know that we're arewe ever done with those
questions?
I don't think so.
I think when we were developinguh an applied humanities major,
and you should know this goes bydifferent things at different
colleges and universities, andand we even grappled with what
(13:29):
do we call it?
Some people call this publichumanities, this applied
humanities.
It's this idea that thehumanities can be leveraged to
solve real problems in theworld.
Um, and that can be in um inpublic service, that could be in
government, that could be innonprofit, that could be in
(13:51):
teaching situations, that couldbe preparing you for graduate
school in your field, that couldbe um going into corporate
America.
There was a time when somethinglike 80% of CEOs had liberal
arts degrees.
You know, I don't know how truethat is anymore.
It once wasn't it.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Um so the the term applied humanities is fairly
new.
You know, I remember when mykids were looking at colleges,
that is not a term that came up.
Um why why do you think it'scoming up now?
What um you know, what's pushingthis forward?
SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
Um what made you need what made you decide to
create this matrix?
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
Let me take a stab at this.
Um it's in part a local contextthing, but it's also a broader
thing.
I know that on one of yourprevious episodes, you had the
president of the college on totalk about the job guarantee.
And that's something of ourlocal environment where it's
it's front and center for themission of the college here to
(15:01):
graduate, educate, and graduatestudents that are career ready.
SPEAKER_05 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Right.
And a large part of that ismaking sure that they have all
the resources to make sure thatthey, you know, know how to
interview and know how todevelop a resume and so forth.
But on our end of things withinthe classroom, it's also about
uh helping them know what skillsthat they have so that they can
communicate them, that they canleverage them, that they can
market them, that they can, asit were, apply them, right?
(15:28):
So, what this is, is it's reallyan attempt to take the kinds of
things that we've been doing inthe humanities, right?
The skill set is there, and tomake it more explicit, to give
students more practice inapplying it, and to make more,
to make them more aware thatthey have something to offer
based on their experience there.
(15:50):
I'll give you an example of whatI mean.
Um, if you think about hownarrative works, right?
Um in a more traditionalhumanities program that doesn't
uh that isn't leaning into theapplied aspect of it, it would
be entirely possible to discovera love of literature, right,
(16:11):
that that Lindsay had talkedabout before, but then to never
get past that.
And at that point, you may thengraduate knowing that you love
literature and knowing a lotabout the literature that you
love, but not having any kind oflanguage to bring with you into
the job market that says,Because of this, I have these
things to offer.
And so in developing an appliedhumanities course, what we're
(16:33):
trying to do is to take thoseskills.
There's still fundamental skillsin knowing how narrative works,
what makes for good, or wetalked about value and meaning,
what makes for good narrative isan open question, right?
But it's not arbitrary.
And to take those skills and tolearn to see narratives in the
world around you.
(16:53):
So what we see are our studentswithin our program being able to
do is find points of communityengagement where they work with
local communities in theirnarratives, right?
Which is to say, what is yournarrative?
Where does it show up?
Are you heard?
And we talk a lot about whetheror not people are heard as
(17:15):
though all we need to do is tomake sure that somebody is
listening in some place.
But that misses the powerdynamics of narratives, right?
And if you want to enter intothat power dynamic, a large part
of that is being able to notonly know your narrative when
you have it, but to work on therhetorical aspects of it to make
it land better with thecommunities around you.
(17:36):
That's how you enter into thatbroader space.
So I can see that, you know, insomething that people might be
more ready to say is ahumanities application, working
with local communities toarchive their experiences to
make sure that that's preservedand preserved in a way that
captures the meaning of theirhistory.
(17:57):
But I can also see it inboardrooms when you ask the
question, what is this company?
What is their narrative?
Who are they relative to theircommunity?
And to be able to leverage thatand to uh provide a compelling
narrative on that company'sbehalf is very different than
simply running a company in acommunity.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
So you're taking these these um humanities,
you're taking these these ideasand in a very concrete way
applying them to businesses orto you know people who are doing
work outside of the college.
Absolutely.
I love it.
SPEAKER_05 (18:35):
Yeah.
I'll I'll I'll give one example.
I'm I'm really glad that youwere even talking about
narrative and just from fiction,you know, when we learn about
the um how authors leverage thestakes of a story, like we need
to know what the stakes are.
Is someone gonna die?
(18:56):
Is someone going to, you know,get the promotion?
What is going on here?
When you let's take thatboardroom example.
Um if you don't introduce thiselement of the stakes of what is
going on here, you're missingout on an opportunity for people
to understand what the impact ofthat issue is gonna be.
(19:21):
Um I I just watched Project HailMary with my with my son, who
loves that kind of thing.
And powerful storytelling has asat its center a highlighting of
what the stakes, if we don'tsolve this problem, the sun is
going to go dim and we will alldie.
And that is the basis of now,let me tell you this story, and
(19:45):
you're invested because thestakes are so high.
SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
You know, in preparing for this interview, I
was reading an article in highered about a professor who taught
a course called um fiction forspecific purposes, you know,
specifically using literatureum, you know, to apply.
That touched my heart because Iwhen I went to college many
(20:10):
years ago, I started out as aliterature major because that
was my love.
But then I sort of shifted intopsychology and things that I
thought I could do as a job.
But the this is like connectingthe two as really interesting
stuff.
SPEAKER_05 (20:29):
Yeah, the the approach to business and
technical communications now hasat its center storytelling.
Yeah, storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, I the idea of being able to um uh uh
to apply uh these things that umthat we that we that some of us
love.
I was also a literature major,um and I became a teacher
because that was the only thingI thought I could do with
(21:00):
literature.
So um, you know, one of the oneof the things I read was um from
someone in the business worldwho who said the superpowers of
the future emanate from thehumanities, which is really such
a strong statement.
I and you've talked a lot aboutbut both of you have talked
about narrative and and andtelling the story.
(21:21):
What other what other uh whatwhat are the other some of the
other superpowers that thehumanities are going to give
students that they're gonna beable to you know formulate the
future?
Good question, Vicky.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Yeah, I like it.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Um yeah, but can you answer it?
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Well, let's try this on other sides.
Um, I've been thinking a lot aswe've been developing this
program about how this wouldchange how we teach our ethics
class, for example.
Right.
And I think more often than not,when students sign up for an
ethics class, they're signing upbecause this will help them
(21:58):
figure out what's the rightthing to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:00):
Or they need a work.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Or maybe, yeah, you know, it maybe it'll look good
on the resume because then maybethey're better people because
they've had this class.
Not a real clear sense of whatwe do in ethics.
And so when you go through thefirst couple weeks of class, you
basically blow the doors off andsay the reason why there's
ethics is because the rationalesthat we have for deciding among
conflicting options are not verygood.
(22:23):
This is the best that we have.
So get into the mud with us andstart working this stuff
through.
And then they often getfrustrated because they're like,
it's all gray, it's all justopinion and so forth.
And you spend the rest of thesemester sort of trying to work
with them to help help themdevelop the tools to join the
conversation at the level thatour our broader civilization is
(22:45):
is hopefully having it, right?
Now it's possible to leave that.
Without the supplied angle, withthe idea that, oh, well,
philosophers, they just like toargue.
So if you like to argue, thenyou can go in that class and you
can look at these hypotheticalsituations and you can try and
figure out what's the rightthing.
(23:06):
Um, or you know, if you careabout doing the right thing,
then maybe that's the class foryou.
But if you don't really careabout what somebody else thinks
you should do and you just doyou, as some of my students say,
um you don't need the class,right?
What an applied focus does for aclass like that is points
students towards the directapplications.
(23:28):
Anytime a company, for example,is making a decision about how
it's going to impact its localcommunity, it needs to defend
those claims.
Now, sometimes it simplydoesn't, and it does it in terms
of raw power.
That's a choice, but that'll bebrought into another
conversation that again willhave ethics at its root.
Is this the way that we shouldbe doing things?
(23:50):
Which is really a conversationabout what we think the
collective good is there.
We're negotiating socially howwe want our world to be.
And to me, that's that's thereal core of what ethics is.
And there you get to see it inits sort of natural habitat as
it's going on.
So the goal there is to start uhletting students see that what
(24:15):
they're talking about in atheoretical way within the
classroom actually has concreteeffects in the ways that we go
about shaping our world.
It's not just a if you want tobe able to speak more clearly
your truth, take this class.
That's good, that's valuable.
I wouldn't want to discountthat.
But it's also a function of ifyou want to have a hand in
(24:37):
shaping the world that you have,these are the tools that you
need.
And the more you can show thatyou have those tools, the more
you can demonstrate that youhave something to offer in those
public spheres.
SPEAKER_03 (24:50):
You know, it occurs to me that as less students are
applying it to humanities andand and very specifically trying
to be trained for a job, this isexactly what's missing, what
you're talking about.
You know, this this is themissing piece.
Um, so it makes sense to me thatmore and more colleges are
(25:14):
starting to offer this.
Um, you know, I'm curious toknow, um, like Rob, you're
teaching a class in this.
What are students' response tothe idea of applying humanities?
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Yeah, so this is our first time teaching that
introductory course.
So it's a little bit of learn asyou go.
You came in with, you know, youcome in with great ideas and
then you start seeing what worksand you adapt from there.
So it's it's been a journey.
But the things that I think havehad the most impact on students
in that course so far are inareas that you might not expect.
(25:48):
Uh, we talked, for example, alot about the process of
curation and archiving.
And at first glance, you mightthink, well, those are very
rarefied fields.
Probably not many, if any of ourstudents are planning to go into
curation or archiving as theiruh intended career path, right?
(26:09):
But that's not really why wecover it in the course.
It's instead a way of helpingstudents to see the world around
them as being fundamentallyshaped by those practices in
ways that impact them.
So I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
Uh, when we talked aboutcuration, we had a chance to
(26:30):
look at several different artexhibits where the focus was not
on the artwork itself or thecreation of that art, right?
There you start to get into alittle bit of a different realm.
We looked at it from theperspective of how is the art
presented?
What does that presentation tellus about what the assumptions
are, about what the art is, whatits value is, who it's meant
(26:55):
for?
You know, so students got to askquestions like when I read the
little plinth, the littleinformation packet beneath the
work of art, how muchinformation does it include?
And how much is it not saying?
What is it assuming about thekind of people that read that?
Where is the artwork placed?
Is it out of the way, whichmeans it's really only for
(27:15):
people who already know thatit's there, who already take
time out of their schedule to goand see it?
Or is it something that'sactually meant for the broader
public?
So we did this both on Curry'scampus, and we also went down to
the Museum of Fine Arts to seethe differences in how curation
is approached there, with prettysignificant differences, and
(27:36):
students were able to pick up onthis.
This question about why do wehave art at all?
What is it supposed to be doing?
Who is it supposed to beaccessible to and what are we
doing to make it accessible?
Right?
So you get to start talkingabout things like is the art
there because it's pretty or isit there because it's
(27:57):
challenging?
Does good art make you feelhappy or uncomfortable?
Questions that normally I thinkmaybe for a student coming into
college, there may be artaround, but that's just sort of
decoration.
Right?
And we're trying to shift theway that they see the art that's
around them as a reflection ofwhat their context values.
(28:22):
And a lot of times the answerswere uncomfortable answers.
And that opens the door then tookay, if you know, as as Lindsay
talked about before, if thisreflects a lot of neoliberalism,
where it's only valuable ifsomebody will pay you money to
own it.
If that's the underlying valueof what determines where our art
(28:43):
is, you gotta wonder how elseyou're being valued as a person,
what your commitments matter,and you get to do the whole
cascading process with them.
So some little thing likefinding a piece of art and
thinking about how it's placedopens up all these doors to what
are your possibilities, wherecan you see power dynamics in
(29:04):
the world around you, and whatcan you do to help make that
world a little bit more the waythat you think that it probably
should be.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
And you know, it would make if I could take my
kids back and send them back tocollege, I think I'd be, you
know, encouraging them to lookinto something like this because
of the um the appreciation, thegrowth, the understanding that
that's happening for them.
I want to take it sort of, okay,now they're seniors and and
(29:47):
going out into the world.
Um, and you, you know, you'veboth talked about narrative and
story.
And one of the things I so oftentalk to students about is
telling their the theirtranscript story that that when
they have an interview, whenthey're when they're talking to
someone in that way, what's thestory that their transcript
(30:09):
tells?
And sometimes it's, you know, II I failed three classes in my
first year, and here's what Ilearned from that, and here's
where I grew.
So it's it's how can I how can Itake all of these wonderful
things that I've learned, and itdoesn't matter what your major
is, um, and talk to someoneabout what I'm going to be able
(30:32):
to do for them.
You know, here's the story ofwhat I've learned, and here's
how I can apply it.
Um any thoughts about howstudents can take this and put
it out there so that someoneelse will understand the value?
SPEAKER_05 (30:51):
I think you're speaking to something that uh we
recognize as humanists, and ithas to do with telling our the
story of who we are, the storyof your life.
Who am I?
Who do I want to be?
Um, when we're using our voicesin that way and telling our own
(31:12):
stories, it's very magicalbecause we are telling a story
that we are becoming.
It's sort of like we're settinga pin at where the story's
going, and we're going towardthat thing.
So um this is something we askstudents to do when we ask them
(31:37):
to reflect on what they'relearning, on how they see
themselves applying it.
And this starts, this starts inthe first year, and it's
something that happens, itshould be happening in every
class.
So that by the time a student isin their senior year, I think
(31:57):
they're they have a very strongsense of what that, who am I,
what is the story of mytranscript, but more broadly,
the story of myself.
Um, what is my identity?
What is my place in this world?
And I think, you know, these arethe questions at the heart of
the humanities that people mightfind very abstract.
(32:23):
Um, but there's a place forthose questions, even in applied
humanities, where we're sayingthere's a value for these
things, a direct applicationthat you will find um invaluable
in your professional life.
But like don't sleep on, as mystudents say, like, don't sleep
(32:45):
on the fact that these are alsotools that help you have a good
life and have goodrelationships.
Um, so that did I, Rob, youwanna, I feel like this is a
good place for you to weighinto.
Because I start talking, I startanswering the question, and then
I'm like, oh wait, I gotta go onto this other thing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
Yeah, I mean, some of this is is a question about
the anxiety of the major.
And I think one of the thingsthat we need to bring into this
conversation has been theincrease in the number of people
that have gotten college degreesover the last several decades,
right?
We talk about contracting umstudent enrollment now, but this
(33:29):
is at the edge, the the backedge of a wave of significantly
increased higher education.
Um, and you know, I'm thinkingback to when when Lindsay had
noted that it used to be thecase that a uh an overwhelming
number of CEOs would have umhumanities and liberal arts
degrees, right?
That's reflective of a differentsort of approach to education,
(33:52):
where you had a certain elitepopulation that could afford to
get higher education, and youcould afford to major in
classics or uh Italian or or soforth, and you could rely on a
uh a network that's outs outsideof that to sort of bring you
into your your career path.
(34:13):
Yeah um, so yeah, you might beable to draw on your your uh
your training in college in somesense, but people could also
say, like, oh yeah, that's fouryears for you to like go find
yourself and grow up and learnhow to do something
independently and so forth,right?
And the challenge with therebeing so much more competition
(34:35):
in the college educated groupnow, uh you I think one of the
manifestations of that is thisreal career focus.
It's it's super competitive.
You can't come out and say,Well, I'm a college college
educated person, so of courseyou should hire me, it'll be
great for you.
And they're like, Yeah, put youryour resume on the pile, right?
So I think uh one way to thinkabout what applied humanities is
(34:58):
is it's a response to thatshift, right?
It's it's I think beingresponsible to that legitimate
concern about how wedifferentiate ourselves.
And I think we need to do that.
I don't think that there are toomany people left who can say,
(35:18):
well, just go to college forfour years, do what you want,
we'll figure it out when you'redone.
Don't worry about skills, justyou know, see in four years.
Um economically, with theincreasing costs of education,
that's not a feasible uh uhapproach for most people.
Um so we're playing into that.
(35:40):
Uh I think in a good way.
The only thing that gives mepause is uh the extent to which
people may see it as a sort ofneoliberal move, where we're
trying to effectively economizethe humanities.
So we'll give this to you, andits sole value will be how you
(36:00):
can translate this into money.
Yes, you need to have gainfulemployment.
And the commitment of this majoris that we're pretty confident
that if you do this well, thisis exactly what we say about the
job guarantee, by the way, thatif you do this well, if you work
with us to develop those skills,you'll know what those skills
are and you can market them,right?
(36:22):
I think that's generally true,but I would also want to hold on
to the thing that I think we'vealso been indicating throughout
this interview that the kinds ofthings that you learn to do here
are the things that ultimatelyyou will prize most about who
you become in that work world,right?
That developing meaning andvalue and purpose is not an
(36:43):
ancillary kind of you can dothis if you want, or just let it
take care of itself and and andgo and make money.
These things are inherentlylinked.
And when you think about howpeople change careers, that's
another thing.
It's a uh I think lying in thebackground here, um what a
(37:04):
college does is not so muchprepare people for a career
anymore.
I'm not sure if it ever did, butI think we were able to hold on
to that because people were muchmore prone to be in one career
for their whole working lives.
The rate at which people changenot just jobs, but also careers,
has a lot to do, I think, withwhat drives them, what they want
(37:28):
to do, who they want to be.
And so I think if we can armstudents not only with
transferable, marketable skills,but also a strong skill set in
knowing what drives them, whenthat's changing, and what it
means for how they should occupytheir time.
That's how I think we serve ourstudents best as they make make
(37:48):
their way into the job market.
SPEAKER_03 (37:51):
You know, what one of the one of the last questions
I had was what how do youpresent this to parents who are
concerned, who are nervous?
Um, I think you just answeredthat question.
I'm thinking the same thing.
You know, you just said what Ias a parent want to hear about
(38:12):
this new trend.
I mean, this is pretty exciting.
Um, is there anything else youwant to say to parents to help
give them more information aboutthis?
SPEAKER_05 (38:24):
Well, I mean, top of mind right now for parents, for
educators, you you you can'topen up the chronicle of higher
education without seeing AI,right?
And so, I mean, I think about umnow I think parents, myself
(38:44):
included, we're thinking aboutwhat is it?
What is this is there this valuehere that's go going to um gonna
transcend what's going on withAI?
So is there something here thatis going to insulate us from the
(39:07):
draining of power in thatdegree, right?
And um, you know, we weren't weweren't thinking explicitly
about AI when we were puttingthis degree together, but it was
happening in the same timeline,right?
And now we're seeing theweaknesses around AI have to do
(39:31):
with critical thinking, ethicalthinking, all the ways of
thinking that are um at theheart of a major like this.
Um, so you know in writing wetalk about, or we're trying to
as hard as we can to think aboutthe rise of AI as a shift back
(39:57):
to thinking about process, whichis what we always said it was
about anyway.
So when I'm thinking about AI,I'm thinking opportunistically
about let's get back to thequestions at the heart of how do
we know things?
What do we value?
What is this about?
What are the power dynamics?
(40:18):
And and so if you're worriedabout AI, um, this is these are
the kinds of majors that um aregoing to be the things that
can't be replicated byartificial intelligence.
That's fascinating to me.
SPEAKER_02 (40:35):
And you know, I think it thinking that way, what
both of you have just all talkedabout really does uh help
parents not be so anxious whentheir student, yeah.
I mean, the applied the appliedhumanities as a as a major and
(40:55):
as a focus is wonderful.
But even if the student comeshome and says, I want to be a
literature major, or I want tomajor in philosophy, and and the
question, well, what are yougoing to do with that?
And I think it if parents reallythink in terms of what are the
the basics that students are aregetting from those, it really
(41:16):
does help with that kind ofautomatic nervous energy of
well, what do you but you've gotto be able to support yourself,
you've got to be able to get ajob.
Um, and I also think about umthe possibilities of majors and
minors that that students whomajor in applied humanities but
(41:38):
minor perhaps in something alittle more I don't want to say
practical, but that you knowthat that we would think of as
being marketable or the otherway around.
The other way around, major insomething either way, but the
balance of the two things um canbe really important.
Um and I say, and so I think forme, one of the values I I hope
(42:03):
from parents listening to all ofthis is is to know some
questions to ask in theadmissions process of do you
have this kind of major or howdo some of the humanities
address some of these things?
What what's your what's yourschool's thought about AI and
(42:24):
and and all of those sorts ofthings really is is something
for parents to consider and askabout in the admissions process.
And could be that wasn't aquestion, that was just a whole
lot of but it this is exciting.
Um yeah, so so uh how if parentshear this, and we hope they do,
(42:49):
um, and they say, Oh yeah, thatyeah, that's kind of
interesting.
How can I I I wish I could findout a little more.
I mean, this was really helpful.
This is a really goodintroduction to this
up-and-coming field.
Is there any way?
I mean, is it is it just askingquestions that parents can learn
more?
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
Well, maybe um maybe we've gone full circle, right?
And we we end where we began.
Uh, narrative is powerful here.
And one way of doing that is totry and broadcast that on things
like a uh a college website,right?
So look at the programs thatyour child might be interested
in.
unknown (43:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
And and actually go to those pages and and look at
how the colleges that you'relooking at frame what it is that
they're doing.
If you've got a program that hasan applied focus in it, they'll
be forthcoming about that.
That if it's intentional, right?
Um, whereas it's it, I'm surethere are plenty of departments
that don't have that focus whereyou might not get all the things
(43:52):
that we've been talking abouthere, or maybe the extra impetus
is going to be on your child tomake sure that they get that on
their own out of the program,right?
So I would start by looking atthe sites themselves.
That's where colleges tell theirstories.
But I would suggest going theextra step.
If you have a child that'sinterested in the humanities, I
(44:13):
would reach out to the facultyin the colleges that you're
interested in.
Once you've figured out whereyour child's most interested in
going, have them start to reachout and talk to the faculty
there.
Does this seem like the kind ofprogram they're going to be able
to participate in where they'regoing to be able to have this
career focus in mind, wherethey're going to be able to get
(44:35):
out into their community, wherethey're going to be able to not
only develop, but also be ableto say what their skills are, to
develop that narrative of theirown?
SPEAKER_04 (44:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
I know, for example, on our page for the Applied
Communities page, we've gotlinks there where you can.
Connect with faculty teaching inthe department, right?
Um, and I would highly encourageuh families to do that.
Best usually if it comes fromthe child, because uh child
almost adult at that point,right?
(45:08):
But that kind of agency to makesure that this is the right fit
for them.
Um and maybe I'll just add thisone little biographical point.
Uh I came out with a businessdegree.
Um I was really interested inreligious studies, but I had
these conversations with myparents multiple times.
We love the fact that you lovereligious studies, learning
(45:30):
about all these differentreligions, and isn't it
fascinating what they're doingin this part of the world and
that part of the world, and whathappens when they grow up and
what happens when they die?
That's great.
But what are you gonna do withthat is a question that I got
asked a lot, right?
And so I came out with abusiness major.
I was prepared to go intoaccounting.
And I'm sure that that's a greatpath for a lot of people, right?
(45:51):
We need good accounts.
It's it's not to cast any shade,as they say, on accounting.
But I think also part of being aparent of college bound or
college in, for lack of a betterword, uh, children, is trying to
balance that with what drivesthem.
I mean, here I am teachingphilosophy and religious studies
(46:13):
because I couldn't get it out ofmy craw.
unknown (46:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
Right.
Now I wish they had programslike this back a few decades ago
when I was going through mydegree.
I would have loved to have beenable to be better at not only
speaking what I had learned, butbeing able to think about
relevant career paths.
Not because I don't like the onethat I'm in, but it never hurts
to be able to think more broadlyabout what you can do with this.
(46:39):
So I think students are actuallyin a better position now because
of these developments than wewere, say, 20, 30 years ago at
this point.
Right.
But you'll only find out byasking.
So follow the narratives, iswhat I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
Good advice.
Lindsay, you're nodding andnodding and nodding.
SPEAKER_05 (46:57):
Oh well no, I'll I'll add to that to ask
questions about the faculty umand their projects, because it
it you might find out that thereis a faculty member who, you
know, loves fly fishing andloves insects, and you're gonna
study that with them orsomething like that.
(47:19):
Um, we have a faculty member umin writing, um, Kelly Wheeler,
who has um this project thatgrew out of her dissertation,
the swastika project, um, aboutswastika-based hate crimes,
where they happened in highered, what the responses were.
Um, we learned so much in thatproject about um how to so just
(47:44):
think this is total talk aboutapplication.
What if something happened likethat on your campus?
What do you do?
How do you um help and healwhat's go in your community?
What is the best course ofaction?
And you have this thing to lookat and figure out um how those
things happen.
(48:04):
Um so I would encourage peopleto kind of look look at, and
that's easy to find.
Like most colleges look like Robwas talking about, um, highlight
those kinds of um projects thatfaculty members are involved in.
I'd also um have I would askabout things like internships
(48:26):
where where there it's a it's asafe way to practice like some
of those things.
Um and you know, also I'll saylike, you know, the thing about
um you couldn't stop thinkingabout that thing, like the
religious studies.
Um, this kind of appliedthinking is even happening
happening in PhD programs.
(48:47):
They talk about the alt-acmarket.
That's the alternative toacademics.
So they're even thinking in umPhD programs in English.
When you are about to be on themarket, they're even preparing
people to think about um careersoutside of academe.
(49:07):
Whereas before, that was never athing.
You know, you're you're gonna bea professor, you're going to get
your PhD, this is your path,you're gonna be a professor, but
that is not the case anymore.
So I would say, even, you know,to those parents who, you know,
have a student, I often see thisin my neurodivergent students
who have their really deepdiving into this one thing, you
(49:31):
know, there is a place forexpert, expert knowledge that
not only in academe, but outsideacademe.
And like, wow, you know, fan theflames on that, you know.
That uh we we uh Lynn knowsthis.
That hyper focus, I mean, let'spowerful.
(49:53):
It's very powerful.
And looking back, how manycollege professors do you think
were neurodivergent in that way,you know?
SPEAKER_03 (50:02):
Yeah, doctors and lawyers, and yes, good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
I I think these are wonderful pieces of advice to
leave this with.
And I my only hope is thateverybody has stayed with us to
to to this point to kind of butbut I think it it sort of pulls
together a lot of a lot of thesethings.
And the idea of uh I mean, thereare things that we have talked
about for years of encouragingyour student to do the
(50:30):
investigation.
I really was happy, Rob, whenyou said have your student to
not you know mom or dad uhchecking things out and um and
and following following the youknow, following your dream,
follow, following, you know,what what you love and finding
finding how that works.
(50:50):
So um people should expect tohear a lot more, I think, in the
in the coming years about umwhether it's called applied
humanities or whatever else.
Um and I think it comes rightback to it was you know, Rob
wanted to bring us back to wherewe started, and I I like that in
terms of the humanities beingabout what it means to be human.
(51:13):
And um, and and the more thatyour student can do that, the
better.
So thank you both, um LindsayIllich and Rob Smid um for
designing this major, along withI know you didn't do it alone.
That was a it there was a wholegroup of people, um, and that
that there's a whole notherpodcast in that whole idea of
(51:38):
things that are umcross-departmental and
interdepartmental andcollaborative, and more and more
of that happening.
And sort of leave leave thiswith a teaser um for parents uh
and students if you're in thethat admissions process to sort
of investigate what kinds of youknow, you don't have to be in
(52:00):
such a small box anymore, whatkinds of cross-departmental
things are happening.
So thank you so much, and thankyou.
Thank you.
This was great.
Thank you for a greatconversation.
And thanks to everyone who hasstayed with us to the end.
And so we'll see you next time.
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