May 14, 2025 • 33 mins
Dr. Case Thorpe, theologian-in-residence at First Presbyterian Church of Orlando, brings profound insights into how Christians can meaningfully engage with society beyond church walls. Drawing from his extensive experience in global mission work and as founder of the Collaborative ministry, Thorpe articulates why faith must transcend Sunday services to transform our workplaces, institutions, and culture.
The conversation explores the concept of the "public square" and examines how Christian principles have historically shaped American democracy. Thorpe expresses concern about cultural fraying and the marginalization of Christian voices, noting that believers increasingly find themselves viewed as "outsiders" or "weirdos" in mainstream society. Yet rather than retreating, he advocates for intentionally preparing Christians to serve in leadership positions across sectors—from healthcare to education to business—where they can actively demonstrate kingdom values.
Particularly compelling is Thorpe's analysis of how Christian foundations continue to undergird many values taken for granted in secular society. When discussing human rights with non-believers, he often points out their Christian origins, which can be initially jarring for those who haven't considered this connection. As evidence of shifting spiritual currents, he notes the surprising popularity of crystal shops near his home—a sign of people seeking meaning through alternative spiritualities as traditional faith declines.
The discussion touches on Richard John Neuhaus's concept of the "naked public square," Tim Keller's observations about "moral therapeutic deism," and the striking differences between American and European Christianity. Thorpe shares a revealing anecdote about visiting Scotland, where only 2% of the population attends church, and Church of Scotland buildings stand empty or for sale—a potential preview of America's future without intentional discipleship.
Perhaps most importantly, Thorpe emphasizes that "the kingdom of God is a verb, not a noun"—something Christians actively manifest rather than merely discuss. This practical approach to faith encourages believers to find natural entry points for meaningful conversations, whether through asking about someone's tattoo or simply by living distinctively enough that others notice the difference.
Join us for this thought-provoking exploration of faith's role in public life and discover resources for your own journey at WeCoLabor.com or CaseThorpe.com.
For more information about our podcasts, see our website at www.Great-Thinkers.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:08):
Hello and welcome to this episode of Conversations with
Great Thinkers.
Our guest today is Dr CaseThorp He's an author, a speaker
and a pastor passionate aboutseeing Christian faith lived out
through the church walls.
After 18 years in globalmission and evangelism traveling
the world, he now serves astheologian and resident at the
(00:31):
3,500-member First PresbyterianChurch of Orlando.
There he founded and launchedthe Collaborative, a ministry
creating resources andexperiences for Christ-centered
professionals in the publicsquare.
He hosts two podcasts Nuance,where he interviews thought
leaders on the intersection offaith, work and culture, and
(00:53):
Form for Faithfulness, a weekly10-minute devotional for people
of faith in the workplace.
Dr Thorpe's writings haveappeared in the Wall Street
Journal, westminster Journal,the Gospel Coalition, miro
Orthodoxy and more.
After undergraduate studies atboth Oxford and Emory, he earned
(01:18):
his Master of Divinity fromPrinceton Theological Seminary
and a doctorate from FullerTheological Seminary.
An ordained pastor in theEvangelical Presbyterian Church,
dr Thorpe served as thedenomination's 39th monitor at
the General Assembly and hastaught at both.
Case (01:33):
Palm Beach.
Well, Jim, thank you so much.
It's an honor.
I appreciate you asking.
Jim (01:38):
Dr Thorpe, welcome to our podcast.
Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for joining us today.
I know from having the pleasureof listening to some of your
podcasts that sometimes, as yousign off, you use the phrase how
(01:58):
to live faithfully in thepublic square, and that's kind
of that idea or concept that I'dlike to explore with you today,
again in a direction thatyou're comfortable with, not one
that I want to in any waydominate.
But can you tell us a littlebit about how you define the
public square and maybe a littlebit of the history of faith in
(02:18):
the public square in the contextof the American experience?
Case (02:20):
Well, I know that growing up in the suburbs in the south,
outside of Atlanta we werespread about and didn't have so
much of that traditional publicsquare like we know from
colonial days, and so there'sboth the literal space for
monuments and protests andgathering together that you
(02:44):
might find in a city.
But the figurative vision of apublic square means so much to
me because I don't like when wehave a holy huddle, when we
Christians hang out in thechurch and pretend it's sort of
a country club without the valet, but rather we were charged
(03:04):
with our faith, given it by God,that we might go make disciples
, and so I think it really, Jim,it comes from an evangelistic,
of an evangelism desire andknowing that if we equip well
our people to go live theirfaith where they live their
lives, particularly in theworkplace or in other
(03:27):
institutions, they are going tobuild the kingdom there and it's
going to really have an impact.
I think I'm also motivated bythe way in which our culture
seems to be fraying in so manyways.
I am not only sad to see lessof a Christian voice, I'm sad to
see that we as Christ followersare sort of the outsiders now,
(03:51):
the weirdos, the non-mainstreampeople that others raise an
eyebrow to, but I'm alsoconcerned with the decline of
Western liberal values.
Of Western liberal values Idon't mean capital, L liberal in
(04:11):
politics, but the notions ofdemocracy and free speech and
freedom of religion, it really.
And those are all based onChristian principles.
And it worries me that much ofour national dialogue seems to
be going in the wrong direction.
Dialogue seems to be going inthe wrong direction.
So I think the church hasplayed an incredible role in
America's history.
We have a new phase and centuryahead of us and I wonder is the
(04:38):
church ready?
Are our people discipled wellenough for what's coming?
Jim (04:51):
Interesting thoughts.
Let me see if I can pick up oneof the threads that you just
mentioned, and I don't know ifyou recall when we were having
our discussion about setting upthis podcast, but I had
mentioned to you a theologianthat I had read a number of
(05:12):
years ago, by the name ofRichard John Niehaus, who had
written about the naked publicsquare.
At the time he was lamentingthe fact that if the public
square is naked with regard to,or neutral with regard to, faith
issues, it could cause someserious problems for society.
(05:38):
Well, Newhouse is one of myliterary mentors.
It shaped me very much.
I had a subscription to FirstThings in college.
Case (05:49):
I'm that kind of a nerd and when he passed, actually I
wrote an editorial that theOrlando Sentinel here published,
and it was surprising to me tosee how many other Newhouseans
were out there that reallyresonated with that.
Newhouseans were out there thatreally resonated with that.
You know, a naked public squareleaves us as humans to have our
(06:19):
innate natural selves unleashed.
Dwells in us all will begin torun things, so to say, come out
in the way in which we leadinstitutions that are not with
an eye towards the common good.
Now, I'm always keen,especially with non-believing
friends and neighbors.
I'm always keen to explain.
I don't envision a theocracy,certainly not, but I do think
(06:43):
that the church has not been soeffective at preparing people
for those top leadershippositions in the bank, in the
public school system, in thesurgery chief that runs a
hospital.
And it's imperative that we dothat.
(07:10):
I'm reminded of a story when thetsunami hit Japan and took out
the nuclear plant and killedtens of thousands, it was
actually, yes, fukuyama, it wasactually Walmart that had the
infrastructure and the supplies.
They were on the ground helpingpeople before the Japanese
government.
And I don't know what thatconversation looked like in a
boardroom in Bentonville,arkansas, in the immediate
(07:32):
aftermath, perhaps discussingwhat could we do.
What can we do, and I don'tknow the faith level.
I imagine there were a numberof believers and evangelicals in
that room.
Don't know fully, but I know bygolly those folks had been
shaped by a western mindsetwhere uh disaster needs to be uh
to have a response.
People need help and they werewilling to put their company
(07:55):
resources on the line to get outthere and do that.
I don't know if 100 in 100years, the leaders of such major
corporations, globalcorporations, will have such a
heart, a desire for the commongood, and we have to be raising
up our people for that.
Jim (08:23):
What a great answer.
Let's pull the camera back justa little bit from the point
you're making and make it alittle broader, and talk about
religion and democracy from yourperspective.
Am I correct?
Was it John Adams that said thesystem doesn't work without a?
Case (08:39):
moral foundation to it Was it John Adams.
Jim (08:52):
He did.
And George Washington, one ofmy favorites, said in his
farewell address, as I recall,that we could never build a
system of government that couldpass enough laws to govern all
aspects of human behavior.
Case (09:10):
So I think it remains to be seen.
I don't know if I want to seeit or I hope that in seeing it
there is a revival of religiousfaith or some shared value
system amongst people thatenable the necessary levers of
democracy to work.
But I am quite proud as aPresbyterian that more
Presbyterians signed theConstitution and the Declaration
(09:30):
of Independence than any other.
I love to quote King George IIIwho spoke of the American
Revolution as that ScottPresbyterian rebellion.
Right, but in our Calvinismquite a number of those
convictions translated intoAmerican society and it served
(09:51):
us well, I believe, and it needsto keep serving us well long
into the future.
Jim (09:57):
Yeah, certainly in early America the Reformed tradition
is very much woven into thetexture of the country is very
much woven into the texture ofthe country.
Whether or not that stillexists today is maybe something
we'll talk about a little laterduring this discussion.
But I wanted to ask from yourperspective, do you see religion
(10:20):
as being a?
Case (10:21):
retreat?
Well, it depends on where youare in the world.
Certainly, the global church ofthe South and the East is
booming.
Jim (10:27):
In this context today, in.
Case (10:28):
Western European nations and somewhat in America, not as
much as in Europe.
Certainly, religion is inretreat and that's what the
sociologists tell us.
At the same time, in the lastsix weeks now I know you can't
judge a movement or test societyon a six week time window there
(10:49):
have been numerous stories ofmassive conversions on
university campuses across thestates.
There have been a number ofvery remarkable events for young
adults and young people.
So we'll see on that.
But I saw a statistic recentlythat a significant part of our
(11:14):
population, when they heard theword evangelical, thought it was
a political party.
They did not understand thestripe or tribe within
Christianity that evangelicaloriginally meant and represents.
As you mentioned, I'm in theEvangelical Presbyterian Church
and we've even had thatconversation.
Do we change the E word becauseof the role it's been playing
(11:38):
in politics?
So I don't bemoan Christiansbeing very active.
I think that the Trumpphenomenon is sort of a
post-exilic voting pattern forChristians and I can explain
that more if desired.
But religion is in retreat andit matters to me that it not be
(11:59):
so.
Jim (12:00):
I am going to throw a tiny little curveball at you in
connection with it.
I'm going to take the libertyof reading to a sentence or two
because I'd like to get yourreaction to it.
But there was an eminentsociologist at the University of
Pennsylvania years ago who wasa cultural critic and at the
(12:24):
time, he profoundly influencedcontemporary thought with his
exploration of the intrinsicrelationship between the
so-called sacred and socialorders.
His central thesis and this iswhat I'm going to ask you to
comment on- it posited that noculture has ever sustained
itself without being rooted in asacred order, and that, in
(12:50):
order to understand what he'ssaying, you have to take a look
at his perspectives, examiningthe foundations, implications
and relevance for culturaldynamics.
Case (12:58):
Well, I'd like to see his research or better understand
his argument, because it's onlythe last 200, 300 years with the
Enlightenment.
Do we have this concept ofsecular?
The Enlightenment, part of itsagenda was to drive religion
into the home and make it aprivate club of sorts that you
(13:19):
go to, much like Rotary or abowling league, and I
fundamentally reject that or abowling league, and I
fundamentally reject that.
I think faith should be outthere and there should be
integration, that we shouldbreak down that sacred secular
divide.
So, looking back then throughhistory, the role of the divine,
the role of religion, is alwaysquite paramount and present.
(13:42):
So I don't quite know.
I think we do have this secularexperiment and it only seems to
continue to degrade the humanexperience.
I think about the sexualrevolution and how it has put
women at such a different place,and certainly we needed women's
liberation on a lot of things.
(14:02):
But the sexual revolution hasso degraded sexual relations
that women get used and men arenot committed and you watch that
trajectory on into the futureand it's not a good one.
Maybe that will.
This is the Benedict option andRod Dreher's argument that the
church will become an island.
(14:23):
The church becomes an island ofsafety and security as society
gets more chaotic.
Jim (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, now, the Benedict Option is an
interesting theory, right, yeah?
Case (14:35):
Oh, yes, rolling alone.
Jim (14:37):
Yeah, I don't know if you've ever come across an
author by the name of RobertBella, but yeah.
So During the 1950s it wassomewhat described as the apex
of the faith movement in America.
(14:58):
You had the ascendancy of BillyGraham, and Reinhold Niebuhr
was a towering intellectualfigure in Christian thought,
actually way beyond Christianthought.
Bella wrote a book aboutAmerican civil religion and he
posited that the American civilreligion was a kind of a
(15:21):
monotheistic, non-sectariancivil religion that existed
within the United States, whichdrew on sacred symbols from the
nation's history.
Now scholars created a cottageindustry out of analyzing
Bella's thought, because peoplehave all kinds of different
ideas, but I've always viewed itas being
(15:45):
Judeo-Christian-centric and thatthat was integral to his
thinking.
I don't know if and I'm notasking you to, if Bell is not on
top of mind right now, I'm notasking you but generally, do you
think that there was a periodof time when it didn't mean that
everybody subscribed to anyparticular denomination, or even
(16:08):
that you necessarily had achurch?
Case (16:09):
Well, whether they were willing or not, they certainly
carried with them an enchantedunderstanding meaning a biblical
worldview of beginning andending of time, the place and
role of the church it's, even ifsomebody didn't appreciate its
value, certainly its power andits role.
(16:30):
I think that his observationson what entails our civic, civil
religion for the Americanexperiment and our symbols and
such, is very wise and keen.
For sure I like to use thewords of Tim Keller, the very
well-known Presbyterian pastorthat grew a 6,000-member church
(16:52):
in New York City.
He recently passed and we'llmiss him for sure.
But he spoke quite often ofmoral, therapeutic deism that a
lot of people will say they're aChristian, but they don't
necessarily mean being filledwith the Holy Spirit and an
active relationship with JesusChrist.
Rather, it's moral therapeuticdeism.
(17:13):
Morals there's right things andwrong things.
It's therapeutic because it'sall about me and if it makes me
feel good, if it makes me happy.
And then deism yeah, there's aGod out there, but I don't want
to get into the specifics.
Yeah, there's a God out there,but I don't want to get into the
specifics.
And so I think in this age thatis probably harder to fight and
I don't want to say fight, butharder to work with and to share
(17:36):
the gospel with, because it'ssort of like silly putty.
It's not solid and it can moveand shape and form, whereas if
(17:59):
you're trying to explain faithto a clear atheist or a Muslim
or someone from another faith,you've got concrete worldview
and values to deal with.
So I'm grateful we have somemoral, therapeutic deism.
But again in 100 years will weand is the church ready?
Jim (18:08):
That's a really good question and, given your
comparative youth, we're goingto let you in charge of making
sure that that does turn out tobe the case.
How's that?
Case (18:21):
I again.
Jim (18:23):
I think you and I exchanged one or two preliminary ideas
before our conversation todayand I mentioned to you Bonson
and Holland and Huntington.
I don't know if you had achance to give any thought or
look at any of the comments byany of those people In looking
(18:45):
at some of the work that thosepeople have put out.
Bonson, for example, talksabout cultural Christianity in
the context that you just used.
It is in crisis because of abreakdown of personal
responsibility and moralaccountability.
Values that, he argues, stemfrom a proper Christian
(19:06):
worldview and I'm wondering ifthat resonates with you at all.
Case (19:11):
Well, when your worldview is the big bang to empiricism
scientific inquiry being theonly source of truth to what's
in the future.
Well, I don't know If I die andjust become worm bait or if
there's anything afterwards.
When you've been taught that inour schools, the public schools
(19:31):
, lean in that direction,clearly, that I do think it
leads to the breakdown of themoral system and the family,
because you lose the sinew ofwhy those things matter and how
one's trajectory in life unfoldsand why it matters.
When I was in 10th grade wewere in the biology class and Ms
(19:52):
Fronick I remember her name.
Ms Fronick was a solidChristian and here she was in
the suburbs of Atlanta, so shehad all these obnoxious Baptists
and Methodists and I was theone or a few Presbyterians
obnoxious Baptist and Methodist,and I was the one or a few
Presbyterians.
And when we started our unit onevolution, she got up front and
she had the biology textbookand she had the Bible and she
(20:14):
said now I know some of you inthis room pointing to the Bible
have very clear ideas andunderstandings of how the world
works and I appreciate that.
But you know what, while we'rein here together, we got to
focus on this book, pointing tothe textbook.
And she said so help me, let'stry not to get into the theology
(20:35):
, but let's just kind of stickwith what the textbook says.
Now, she was a faithful believer.
I really appreciated what shewas doing.
She was trying to keepeverybody from just going nuts
the whole time and struggle withthe scientific concepts.
But if that is your only wordor teaching on what really
(20:56):
matters, we lose touch, we loseconnection with our history,
with our future.
Our teleos is off.
That worries me.
It's been interesting to seehow, since COVID, the number of
students leaving the publicschool and going to charter and
(21:18):
Christian schools.
We just had a newspaper articlethis week that Orange County
and Seminole County they haveless students they expect for
next fall than in previous years.
And, jim, there's 1500 people aweek moving into central
Florida, 1500 a week, and yetthe schools have less students.
Part of this is DeSantisvoucher system where you can go
(21:40):
anywhere you want with goodscholarship money.
But I think people are moving onand tired of the empirical
narrative alone.
Jim (21:51):
Yeah, it's a subject for another day that I'd love to
explore with you because, forbetter or worse, I got a
theological degree.
That institution may want towithdraw that degree at some
time, but I also have a lawdegree and I think the
trajectory of Supreme Courtdecisions that really took any
(22:13):
kind of faith-oriented studiesout of the classroom has had
profound societal consequencesand remains to be seen where all
that's going to shake out.
But I wanted to again play offanother theme that you raised
during your last comment, and itreminded me a little bit of an
(22:36):
intellectual who taught atHarvard for a number of years.
He's passed not too long ago,samuel Huntington.
But he talked about culturalChristianity in geopolitical
terms as being the bedrock ofWestern civilization, making it
distinct from othercivilizations such as Islamic
(22:57):
civilizations or Orthodox ones,that sort of thing, and I
thought a little bit about someof the news that I've been
seeing.
I don't read the British papersthat often, but there's a lot
going on in Britain right nowthat makes me wonder if they're
not losing their culture becausethey've become pretty secular.
Well, we have supported achurch plant outside of
(23:20):
Edinburgh.
Case (23:22):
And I had sabbatical two summers ago and I spent a month
with the church plant and thepastor's, become a good friend
and it was interesting to learn2% of Scots go to church 2% and
that includes the RomanCatholics.
There's a whole lot more RomanCatholics and it was just so sad
(23:46):
.
But what that translated intowas the fact that Tom would
chuckle at some of our socialissues that we were struggling
with particularly at the timewas transgender bathrooms and
folks using the opposite sexbathroom and he said, okay,
we've been doing that for 10, 15years like such, like, such a
(24:08):
passe subject for us now.
And we do look to WesternEurope and there's been a number
of initiatives we've been apart of that.
It's worth studying so thatwe're prepared and that we can
guide the church now to keepfrom getting to such a future.
There's a professor at the FreeUniversity in Amsterdam, stefan
(24:30):
Paas, p-a-a-s, and he does alot of research on the state of
the Western European church andwhat we need to know and how we
need to adjust.
We need to adjust.
So globally.
(24:51):
Americans are known for ourfaith commitments, our large
percentage of the populationthat is faithful.
It's unique.
I have learned from listeningto my global friends how we seem
to incorporate our faith withour politics, even more so,
particularly because of thelarge voting bloc evangelicals
have become, and other nations.
(25:11):
They just don't have thatthought, they don't have that
connection, and so, even withinthis church plant in Edinburgh,
there were people on either sideof Brexit, people on the
liberal and conservative side,and it just didn't.
Nobody cared, it didn't seem tobe an issue, whereas I can't
tell you how often, as a pastor,I'll have a church member say
(25:32):
to me how can you be a Democratand a Christian, or how can you
be a Republican and a Christian?
And so we seem to meld those inways that other countries do
not, and it makes for adifferent church.
I think the free market way inwhich the church was allowed to
(25:53):
thrive in the American contexthas made us much stronger as
opposed to the state churches ofEurope.
Jim (26:00):
Your anecdote about going to Scotland makes me smile,
because Presbyterian Church wasso entrenched in Scotland.
Well, it's very sad you go tothe Church of Scotland webpage
and they have buildings for sale.
There are 30 or 40 churchstructures, gorgeous little
(26:20):
stone churches in the middle ofnowhere but it's so sad stone
churches in the middle ofnowhere, but it's so sad.
You know we've talked about, Iguess, this process of
secularization and some of thecounter trends that are going on
at the time.
But would you, if you're takingthe view from 35,000 feet,
would you say that the secularWest still remains Christian and
(26:43):
moral and philosophicalassumptions?
Case (26:44):
I think we're divorcing, would you say we're really
divorced from those things atthis point.
There have been appeals made toattorneys and deposits put down
on legal fees.
But there still is that remnantnot remnant.
There is those, the echoes ofChristian faith in our culture
that a lot of times we don'teven realize.
(27:06):
I enjoy conversations withfolks that are not believers,
that are more in an apologetictype direction, and I'll point
out the fact that human rightsis based on a Christian
worldview.
And for the people that firsttime hear that, I mean it's half
(27:26):
, it's partly offensive and itmakes their brain kind of crunch
.
And then I challenge and saywell, you know why do you care
about other people?
Oh, because they have inherentvalue, whereas 300 years ago you
had your slaves, they were less, they were subhuman, they
didn't necessarily have value ofthe divine.
(27:47):
You go back into the pre-churchdays of Western Europe where the
Germanic tribes ruled.
It's a radically differentunderstanding of the human and
the fact that spirits inhabitthe trees and the rocks and the
caves.
Our Christian worldview hasdemystified is that the right
(28:07):
word Demystified nature and soso much of what we believe and
do today, even if it is based onChristian philosophy, it's not
readily understood, but it'schanging.
And just around the corner frommy house is a store that sells
crystals and, jim, let me tellyou that place is packed all the
(28:33):
time it is packed and at firstI thought, man, you got to sell
a lot of crystals to pay thatrent, and yet they are making
great money.
And it terrifies me to thinkthere are people that think
there's power in that rock, thatI need to get one of those
purple quartzes and wear it onmy chest as an amulet, and it's
just, it's so foreign to me, butyet it's growing.
(28:58):
It's developing.
We got to be out there as thechurch.
Jim (29:11):
Yeah, well, you know, in terms of apologetics, if you are
not consciously orsubconsciously or unconsciously
drawing your ethics fromJudeo-Christian principles, then
where are you getting them from?
Are you an Aristotelian scholarin New American?
Case (29:31):
ethics.
Jim (29:34):
There's got to be some underlying system for what
you're doing.
I guess is what I'm trying tosay.
Well, I have found this reallyinteresting.
Do you have any concludingthoughts before we walk away
from this discussion?
Is there some question that youwish that I had asked you, that
I have not?
Well, I do think it's importantto move from the philosophical
(29:59):
to the pragmatic.
Case (30:19):
What are your thoughts?
People, be that kingdom of Godmaker in the public square.
The kingdom of God in scriptureis a verb, not a noun.
It's something that breaks outand it's revealed, and so we as
Christians are called to go andhelp make that pop out and
reveal itself wherever we go.
So you know, jim, most peopledon't even realize their
(30:44):
worldview and they're acting inways that are quite ignorant,
not any fault of their own.
So the more we can articulatethese things and the more we can
do.
As a good friend of mine wouldsay, when, when tell me how he
raised his children, we can justkind of shrug our shoulders and
say, well, we're different, ashe raised his girls, and they
(31:04):
would complain and say, well,we're different, as he raised
his girls, and they wouldcomplain, oh well, why do they
get to do this and we have to dothat?
And he's like, well, we'redifferent.
So understanding thatdifference but then being able
to translate it in a way thatspreads the gospel so important.
Jim (31:29):
Yeah, I've always been a big fan, particularly when I'm
meeting people for the firsttime and starting to very gently
understand what, if any,ideology they have.
Case (31:41):
I have a newsletter that I write and my last issue was on
seven different ways to get intoa faith conversation, and the
first one actually is tell meabout your tattoo.
Now, jim, you don't strike meas a man with a tattoo, if you
do all due respect, yes, yeah,well, I don't have any.
(32:03):
I tease with my young adultchildren.
Jim (32:06):
I say, look, if you get the temptation to hang out the
window, wherever you get it.
Case (32:12):
But it's.
It's interesting how tattooscarry so much meaning with
individuals With individuals,and so it's a great way to get
into a vulnerable and a realconversation quickly when you
say, hey, tell me about yourtattoos and they'll tell you
(32:35):
things about themselves theymight not normally.
Oh, let's do it.
Jim (32:37):
Interesting Well.
I think for today we'll leaveit there, but I'm hoping that I
can somehow or another convinceyou to do this again in the
not-too-distant future.
Before we sign off, can I askyou to turn that up to tell our
listeners where they can findout more about you and your
ministry, the collaborative wehave a?
Case (32:55):
very comprehensive website with lots of resources.
It's at WeCoLaborcom, we CoLabor, wecolaborcom and then
CaseThorpecom.
There's no E on Thorpe, butCasethorpecom.
You can sign up for mybi-weekly newsletter called
Porch Life and send me an email.
I'd love to connect with folks.
That's how you reached out, jim, and so it's a good thing.
Jim (33:21):
Exactly, and.
I want to encourage ourlisteners to follow.
You've got so much goodmaterial out there that it is
really worthwhile In an era whenthere's so many things
commanding people's attention.
Really, what you're putting outthere is something that people
should pay attention to.
It'll help them a great deal.
Okay, thanks so much.
(33:42):
I appreciate it.
Hello and welcome to this episode of Conversations with
Great Thinkers.
Our guest today is Dr CaseThorp He's an author, a speaker
and a pastor passionate aboutseeing Christian faith lived out
through the church walls.
After 18 years in globalmission and evangelism traveling
the world, he now serves astheologian and resident at the
(00:31):
3,500-member First PresbyterianChurch of Orlando.
There he founded and launchedthe Collaborative, a ministry
creating resources andexperiences for Christ-centered
professionals in the publicsquare.
He hosts two podcasts Nuance,where he interviews thought
leaders on the intersection offaith, work and culture, and
(00:53):
Form for Faithfulness, a weekly10-minute devotional for people
of faith in the workplace.
Dr Thorpe's writings haveappeared in the Wall Street
Journal, westminster Journal,the Gospel Coalition, miro
Orthodoxy and more.
After undergraduate studies atboth Oxford and Emory, he earned
(01:18):
his Master of Divinity fromPrinceton Theological Seminary
and a doctorate from FullerTheological Seminary.
An ordained pastor in theEvangelical Presbyterian Church,
dr Thorpe served as thedenomination's 39th monitor at
the General Assembly and hastaught at both.
Case (01:33):
Palm Beach.
Well, Jim, thank you so much.
It's an honor.
I appreciate you asking.
Jim (01:38):
Dr Thorpe, welcome to our podcast.
Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for joining us today.
I know from having the pleasureof listening to some of your
podcasts that sometimes, as yousign off, you use the phrase how
(01:58):
to live faithfully in thepublic square, and that's kind
of that idea or concept that I'dlike to explore with you today,
again in a direction thatyou're comfortable with, not one
that I want to in any waydominate.
But can you tell us a littlebit about how you define the
public square and maybe a littlebit of the history of faith in
(02:18):
the public square in the contextof the American experience?
Case (02:20):
Well, I know that growing up in the suburbs in the south,
outside of Atlanta we werespread about and didn't have so
much of that traditional publicsquare like we know from
colonial days, and so there'sboth the literal space for
monuments and protests andgathering together that you
(02:44):
might find in a city.
But the figurative vision of apublic square means so much to
me because I don't like when wehave a holy huddle, when we
Christians hang out in thechurch and pretend it's sort of
a country club without the valet, but rather we were charged
(03:04):
with our faith, given it by God,that we might go make disciples
, and so I think it really, Jim,it comes from an evangelistic,
of an evangelism desire andknowing that if we equip well
our people to go live theirfaith where they live their
lives, particularly in theworkplace or in other
(03:27):
institutions, they are going tobuild the kingdom there and it's
going to really have an impact.
I think I'm also motivated bythe way in which our culture
seems to be fraying in so manyways.
I am not only sad to see lessof a Christian voice, I'm sad to
see that we as Christ followersare sort of the outsiders now,
(03:51):
the weirdos, the non-mainstreampeople that others raise an
eyebrow to, but I'm alsoconcerned with the decline of
Western liberal values.
Of Western liberal values Idon't mean capital, L liberal in
(04:11):
politics, but the notions ofdemocracy and free speech and
freedom of religion, it really.
And those are all based onChristian principles.
And it worries me that much ofour national dialogue seems to
be going in the wrong direction.
Dialogue seems to be going inthe wrong direction.
So I think the church hasplayed an incredible role in
America's history.
We have a new phase and centuryahead of us and I wonder is the
(04:38):
church ready?
Are our people discipled wellenough for what's coming?
Jim (04:51):
Interesting thoughts.
Let me see if I can pick up oneof the threads that you just
mentioned, and I don't know ifyou recall when we were having
our discussion about setting upthis podcast, but I had
mentioned to you a theologianthat I had read a number of
(05:12):
years ago, by the name ofRichard John Niehaus, who had
written about the naked publicsquare.
At the time he was lamentingthe fact that if the public
square is naked with regard to,or neutral with regard to, faith
issues, it could cause someserious problems for society.
(05:38):
Well, Newhouse is one of myliterary mentors.
It shaped me very much.
I had a subscription to FirstThings in college.
Case (05:49):
I'm that kind of a nerd and when he passed, actually I
wrote an editorial that theOrlando Sentinel here published,
and it was surprising to me tosee how many other Newhouseans
were out there that reallyresonated with that.
Newhouseans were out there thatreally resonated with that.
You know, a naked public squareleaves us as humans to have our
(06:19):
innate natural selves unleashed.
Dwells in us all will begin torun things, so to say, come out
in the way in which we leadinstitutions that are not with
an eye towards the common good.
Now, I'm always keen,especially with non-believing
friends and neighbors.
I'm always keen to explain.
I don't envision a theocracy,certainly not, but I do think
(06:43):
that the church has not been soeffective at preparing people
for those top leadershippositions in the bank, in the
public school system, in thesurgery chief that runs a
hospital.
And it's imperative that we dothat.
(07:10):
I'm reminded of a story when thetsunami hit Japan and took out
the nuclear plant and killedtens of thousands, it was
actually, yes, fukuyama, it wasactually Walmart that had the
infrastructure and the supplies.
They were on the ground helpingpeople before the Japanese
government.
And I don't know what thatconversation looked like in a
boardroom in Bentonville,arkansas, in the immediate
(07:32):
aftermath, perhaps discussingwhat could we do.
What can we do, and I don'tknow the faith level.
I imagine there were a numberof believers and evangelicals in
that room.
Don't know fully, but I know bygolly those folks had been
shaped by a western mindsetwhere uh disaster needs to be uh
to have a response.
People need help and they werewilling to put their company
(07:55):
resources on the line to get outthere and do that.
I don't know if 100 in 100years, the leaders of such major
corporations, globalcorporations, will have such a
heart, a desire for the commongood, and we have to be raising
up our people for that.
Jim (08:23):
What a great answer.
Let's pull the camera back justa little bit from the point
you're making and make it alittle broader, and talk about
religion and democracy from yourperspective.
Am I correct?
Was it John Adams that said thesystem doesn't work without a?
Case (08:39):
moral foundation to it Was it John Adams.
Jim (08:52):
He did.
And George Washington, one ofmy favorites, said in his
farewell address, as I recall,that we could never build a
system of government that couldpass enough laws to govern all
aspects of human behavior.
Case (09:10):
So I think it remains to be seen.
I don't know if I want to seeit or I hope that in seeing it
there is a revival of religiousfaith or some shared value
system amongst people thatenable the necessary levers of
democracy to work.
But I am quite proud as aPresbyterian that more
Presbyterians signed theConstitution and the Declaration
(09:30):
of Independence than any other.
I love to quote King George IIIwho spoke of the American
Revolution as that ScottPresbyterian rebellion.
Right, but in our Calvinismquite a number of those
convictions translated intoAmerican society and it served
(09:51):
us well, I believe, and it needsto keep serving us well long
into the future.
Jim (09:57):
Yeah, certainly in early America the Reformed tradition
is very much woven into thetexture of the country is very
much woven into the texture ofthe country.
Whether or not that stillexists today is maybe something
we'll talk about a little laterduring this discussion.
But I wanted to ask from yourperspective, do you see religion
(10:20):
as being a?
Case (10:21):
retreat?
Well, it depends on where youare in the world.
Certainly, the global church ofthe South and the East is
booming.
Jim (10:27):
In this context today, in.
Case (10:28):
Western European nations and somewhat in America, not as
much as in Europe.
Certainly, religion is inretreat and that's what the
sociologists tell us.
At the same time, in the lastsix weeks now I know you can't
judge a movement or test societyon a six week time window there
(10:49):
have been numerous stories ofmassive conversions on
university campuses across thestates.
There have been a number ofvery remarkable events for young
adults and young people.
So we'll see on that.
But I saw a statistic recentlythat a significant part of our
(11:14):
population, when they heard theword evangelical, thought it was
a political party.
They did not understand thestripe or tribe within
Christianity that evangelicaloriginally meant and represents.
As you mentioned, I'm in theEvangelical Presbyterian Church
and we've even had thatconversation.
Do we change the E word becauseof the role it's been playing
(11:38):
in politics?
So I don't bemoan Christiansbeing very active.
I think that the Trumpphenomenon is sort of a
post-exilic voting pattern forChristians and I can explain
that more if desired.
But religion is in retreat andit matters to me that it not be
(11:59):
so.
Jim (12:00):
I am going to throw a tiny little curveball at you in
connection with it.
I'm going to take the libertyof reading to a sentence or two
because I'd like to get yourreaction to it.
But there was an eminentsociologist at the University of
Pennsylvania years ago who wasa cultural critic and at the
(12:24):
time, he profoundly influencedcontemporary thought with his
exploration of the intrinsicrelationship between the
so-called sacred and socialorders.
His central thesis and this iswhat I'm going to ask you to
comment on- it posited that noculture has ever sustained
itself without being rooted in asacred order, and that, in
(12:50):
order to understand what he'ssaying, you have to take a look
at his perspectives, examiningthe foundations, implications
and relevance for culturaldynamics.
Case (12:58):
Well, I'd like to see his research or better understand
his argument, because it's onlythe last 200, 300 years with the
Enlightenment.
Do we have this concept ofsecular?
The Enlightenment, part of itsagenda was to drive religion
into the home and make it aprivate club of sorts that you
(13:19):
go to, much like Rotary or abowling league, and I
fundamentally reject that or abowling league, and I
fundamentally reject that.
I think faith should be outthere and there should be
integration, that we shouldbreak down that sacred secular
divide.
So, looking back then throughhistory, the role of the divine,
the role of religion, is alwaysquite paramount and present.
(13:42):
So I don't quite know.
I think we do have this secularexperiment and it only seems to
continue to degrade the humanexperience.
I think about the sexualrevolution and how it has put
women at such a different place,and certainly we needed women's
liberation on a lot of things.
(14:02):
But the sexual revolution hasso degraded sexual relations
that women get used and men arenot committed and you watch that
trajectory on into the futureand it's not a good one.
Maybe that will.
This is the Benedict option andRod Dreher's argument that the
church will become an island.
(14:23):
The church becomes an island ofsafety and security as society
gets more chaotic.
Jim (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, now, the Benedict Option is an
interesting theory, right, yeah?
Case (14:35):
Oh, yes, rolling alone.
Jim (14:37):
Yeah, I don't know if you've ever come across an
author by the name of RobertBella, but yeah.
So During the 1950s it wassomewhat described as the apex
of the faith movement in America.
(14:58):
You had the ascendancy of BillyGraham, and Reinhold Niebuhr
was a towering intellectualfigure in Christian thought,
actually way beyond Christianthought.
Bella wrote a book aboutAmerican civil religion and he
posited that the American civilreligion was a kind of a
(15:21):
monotheistic, non-sectariancivil religion that existed
within the United States, whichdrew on sacred symbols from the
nation's history.
Now scholars created a cottageindustry out of analyzing
Bella's thought, because peoplehave all kinds of different
ideas, but I've always viewed itas being
(15:45):
Judeo-Christian-centric and thatthat was integral to his
thinking.
I don't know if and I'm notasking you to, if Bell is not on
top of mind right now, I'm notasking you but generally, do you
think that there was a periodof time when it didn't mean that
everybody subscribed to anyparticular denomination, or even
(16:08):
that you necessarily had achurch?
Case (16:09):
Well, whether they were willing or not, they certainly
carried with them an enchantedunderstanding meaning a biblical
worldview of beginning andending of time, the place and
role of the church it's, even ifsomebody didn't appreciate its
value, certainly its power andits role.
(16:30):
I think that his observationson what entails our civic, civil
religion for the Americanexperiment and our symbols and
such, is very wise and keen.
For sure I like to use thewords of Tim Keller, the very
well-known Presbyterian pastorthat grew a 6,000-member church
(16:52):
in New York City.
He recently passed and we'llmiss him for sure.
But he spoke quite often ofmoral, therapeutic deism that a
lot of people will say they're aChristian, but they don't
necessarily mean being filledwith the Holy Spirit and an
active relationship with JesusChrist.
Rather, it's moral therapeuticdeism.
(17:13):
Morals there's right things andwrong things.
It's therapeutic because it'sall about me and if it makes me
feel good, if it makes me happy.
And then deism yeah, there's aGod out there, but I don't want
to get into the specifics.
Yeah, there's a God out there,but I don't want to get into the
specifics.
And so I think in this age thatis probably harder to fight and
I don't want to say fight, butharder to work with and to share
(17:36):
the gospel with, because it'ssort of like silly putty.
It's not solid and it can moveand shape and form, whereas if
(17:59):
you're trying to explain faithto a clear atheist or a Muslim
or someone from another faith,you've got concrete worldview
and values to deal with.
So I'm grateful we have somemoral, therapeutic deism.
But again in 100 years will weand is the church ready?
Jim (18:08):
That's a really good question and, given your
comparative youth, we're goingto let you in charge of making
sure that that does turn out tobe the case.
How's that?
Case (18:21):
I again.
Jim (18:23):
I think you and I exchanged one or two preliminary ideas
before our conversation todayand I mentioned to you Bonson
and Holland and Huntington.
I don't know if you had achance to give any thought or
look at any of the comments byany of those people In looking
(18:45):
at some of the work that thosepeople have put out.
Bonson, for example, talksabout cultural Christianity in
the context that you just used.
It is in crisis because of abreakdown of personal
responsibility and moralaccountability.
Values that, he argues, stemfrom a proper Christian
(19:06):
worldview and I'm wondering ifthat resonates with you at all.
Case (19:11):
Well, when your worldview is the big bang to empiricism
scientific inquiry being theonly source of truth to what's
in the future.
Well, I don't know If I die andjust become worm bait or if
there's anything afterwards.
When you've been taught that inour schools, the public schools
(19:31):
, lean in that direction,clearly, that I do think it
leads to the breakdown of themoral system and the family,
because you lose the sinew ofwhy those things matter and how
one's trajectory in life unfoldsand why it matters.
When I was in 10th grade wewere in the biology class and Ms
(19:52):
Fronick I remember her name.
Ms Fronick was a solidChristian and here she was in
the suburbs of Atlanta, so shehad all these obnoxious Baptists
and Methodists and I was theone or a few Presbyterians
obnoxious Baptist and Methodist,and I was the one or a few
Presbyterians.
And when we started our unit onevolution, she got up front and
she had the biology textbookand she had the Bible and she
(20:14):
said now I know some of you inthis room pointing to the Bible
have very clear ideas andunderstandings of how the world
works and I appreciate that.
But you know what, while we'rein here together, we got to
focus on this book, pointing tothe textbook.
And she said so help me, let'stry not to get into the theology
(20:35):
, but let's just kind of stickwith what the textbook says.
Now, she was a faithful believer.
I really appreciated what shewas doing.
She was trying to keepeverybody from just going nuts
the whole time and struggle withthe scientific concepts.
But if that is your only wordor teaching on what really
(20:56):
matters, we lose touch, we loseconnection with our history,
with our future.
Our teleos is off.
That worries me.
It's been interesting to seehow, since COVID, the number of
students leaving the publicschool and going to charter and
(21:18):
Christian schools.
We just had a newspaper articlethis week that Orange County
and Seminole County they haveless students they expect for
next fall than in previous years.
And, jim, there's 1500 people aweek moving into central
Florida, 1500 a week, and yetthe schools have less students.
Part of this is DeSantisvoucher system where you can go
(21:40):
anywhere you want with goodscholarship money.
But I think people are moving onand tired of the empirical
narrative alone.
Jim (21:51):
Yeah, it's a subject for another day that I'd love to
explore with you because, forbetter or worse, I got a
theological degree.
That institution may want towithdraw that degree at some
time, but I also have a lawdegree and I think the
trajectory of Supreme Courtdecisions that really took any
(22:13):
kind of faith-oriented studiesout of the classroom has had
profound societal consequencesand remains to be seen where all
that's going to shake out.
But I wanted to again play offanother theme that you raised
during your last comment, and itreminded me a little bit of an
(22:36):
intellectual who taught atHarvard for a number of years.
He's passed not too long ago,samuel Huntington.
But he talked about culturalChristianity in geopolitical
terms as being the bedrock ofWestern civilization, making it
distinct from othercivilizations such as Islamic
(22:57):
civilizations or Orthodox ones,that sort of thing, and I
thought a little bit about someof the news that I've been
seeing.
I don't read the British papersthat often, but there's a lot
going on in Britain right nowthat makes me wonder if they're
not losing their culture becausethey've become pretty secular.
Well, we have supported achurch plant outside of
(23:20):
Edinburgh.
Case (23:22):
And I had sabbatical two summers ago and I spent a month
with the church plant and thepastor's, become a good friend
and it was interesting to learn2% of Scots go to church 2% and
that includes the RomanCatholics.
There's a whole lot more RomanCatholics and it was just so sad
(23:46):
.
But what that translated intowas the fact that Tom would
chuckle at some of our socialissues that we were struggling
with particularly at the timewas transgender bathrooms and
folks using the opposite sexbathroom and he said, okay,
we've been doing that for 10, 15years like such, like, such a
(24:08):
passe subject for us now.
And we do look to WesternEurope and there's been a number
of initiatives we've been apart of that.
It's worth studying so thatwe're prepared and that we can
guide the church now to keepfrom getting to such a future.
There's a professor at the FreeUniversity in Amsterdam, stefan
(24:30):
Paas, p-a-a-s, and he does alot of research on the state of
the Western European church andwhat we need to know and how we
need to adjust.
We need to adjust.
So globally.
(24:51):
Americans are known for ourfaith commitments, our large
percentage of the populationthat is faithful.
It's unique.
I have learned from listeningto my global friends how we seem
to incorporate our faith withour politics, even more so,
particularly because of thelarge voting bloc evangelicals
have become, and other nations.
(25:11):
They just don't have thatthought, they don't have that
connection, and so, even withinthis church plant in Edinburgh,
there were people on either sideof Brexit, people on the
liberal and conservative side,and it just didn't.
Nobody cared, it didn't seem tobe an issue, whereas I can't
tell you how often, as a pastor,I'll have a church member say
(25:32):
to me how can you be a Democratand a Christian, or how can you
be a Republican and a Christian?
And so we seem to meld those inways that other countries do
not, and it makes for adifferent church.
I think the free market way inwhich the church was allowed to
(25:53):
thrive in the American contexthas made us much stronger as
opposed to the state churches ofEurope.
Jim (26:00):
Your anecdote about going to Scotland makes me smile,
because Presbyterian Church wasso entrenched in Scotland.
Well, it's very sad you go tothe Church of Scotland webpage
and they have buildings for sale.
There are 30 or 40 churchstructures, gorgeous little
(26:20):
stone churches in the middle ofnowhere but it's so sad stone
churches in the middle ofnowhere, but it's so sad.
You know we've talked about, Iguess, this process of
secularization and some of thecounter trends that are going on
at the time.
But would you, if you're takingthe view from 35,000 feet,
would you say that the secularWest still remains Christian and
(26:43):
moral and philosophicalassumptions?
Case (26:44):
I think we're divorcing, would you say we're really
divorced from those things atthis point.
There have been appeals made toattorneys and deposits put down
on legal fees.
But there still is that remnantnot remnant.
There is those, the echoes ofChristian faith in our culture
that a lot of times we don'teven realize.
(27:06):
I enjoy conversations withfolks that are not believers,
that are more in an apologetictype direction, and I'll point
out the fact that human rightsis based on a Christian
worldview.
And for the people that firsttime hear that, I mean it's half
(27:26):
, it's partly offensive and itmakes their brain kind of crunch
.
And then I challenge and saywell, you know why do you care
about other people?
Oh, because they have inherentvalue, whereas 300 years ago you
had your slaves, they were less, they were subhuman, they
didn't necessarily have value ofthe divine.
(27:47):
You go back into the pre-churchdays of Western Europe where the
Germanic tribes ruled.
It's a radically differentunderstanding of the human and
the fact that spirits inhabitthe trees and the rocks and the
caves.
Our Christian worldview hasdemystified is that the right
(28:07):
word Demystified nature and soso much of what we believe and
do today, even if it is based onChristian philosophy, it's not
readily understood, but it'schanging.
And just around the corner frommy house is a store that sells
crystals and, jim, let me tellyou that place is packed all the
(28:33):
time it is packed and at firstI thought, man, you got to sell
a lot of crystals to pay thatrent, and yet they are making
great money.
And it terrifies me to thinkthere are people that think
there's power in that rock, thatI need to get one of those
purple quartzes and wear it onmy chest as an amulet, and it's
just, it's so foreign to me, butyet it's growing.
(28:58):
It's developing.
We got to be out there as thechurch.
Jim (29:11):
Yeah, well, you know, in terms of apologetics, if you are
not consciously orsubconsciously or unconsciously
drawing your ethics fromJudeo-Christian principles, then
where are you getting them from?
Are you an Aristotelian scholarin New American?
Case (29:31):
ethics.
Jim (29:34):
There's got to be some underlying system for what
you're doing.
I guess is what I'm trying tosay.
Well, I have found this reallyinteresting.
Do you have any concludingthoughts before we walk away
from this discussion?
Is there some question that youwish that I had asked you, that
I have not?
Well, I do think it's importantto move from the philosophical
(29:59):
to the pragmatic.
Case (30:19):
What are your thoughts?
People, be that kingdom of Godmaker in the public square.
The kingdom of God in scriptureis a verb, not a noun.
It's something that breaks outand it's revealed, and so we as
Christians are called to go andhelp make that pop out and
reveal itself wherever we go.
So you know, jim, most peopledon't even realize their
(30:44):
worldview and they're acting inways that are quite ignorant,
not any fault of their own.
So the more we can articulatethese things and the more we can
do.
As a good friend of mine wouldsay, when, when tell me how he
raised his children, we can justkind of shrug our shoulders and
say, well, we're different, ashe raised his girls, and they
(31:04):
would complain and say, well,we're different, as he raised
his girls, and they wouldcomplain, oh well, why do they
get to do this and we have to dothat?
And he's like, well, we'redifferent.
So understanding thatdifference but then being able
to translate it in a way thatspreads the gospel so important.
Jim (31:29):
Yeah, I've always been a big fan, particularly when I'm
meeting people for the firsttime and starting to very gently
understand what, if any,ideology they have.
Case (31:41):
I have a newsletter that I write and my last issue was on
seven different ways to get intoa faith conversation, and the
first one actually is tell meabout your tattoo.
Now, jim, you don't strike meas a man with a tattoo, if you
do all due respect, yes, yeah,well, I don't have any.
(32:03):
I tease with my young adultchildren.
Jim (32:06):
I say, look, if you get the temptation to hang out the
window, wherever you get it.
Case (32:12):
But it's.
It's interesting how tattooscarry so much meaning with
individuals With individuals,and so it's a great way to get
into a vulnerable and a realconversation quickly when you
say, hey, tell me about yourtattoos and they'll tell you
(32:35):
things about themselves theymight not normally.
Oh, let's do it.
Jim (32:37):
Interesting Well.
I think for today we'll leaveit there, but I'm hoping that I
can somehow or another convinceyou to do this again in the
not-too-distant future.
Before we sign off, can I askyou to turn that up to tell our
listeners where they can findout more about you and your
ministry, the collaborative wehave a?
Case (32:55):
very comprehensive website with lots of resources.
It's at WeCoLaborcom, we CoLabor, wecolaborcom and then
CaseThorpecom.
There's no E on Thorpe, butCasethorpecom.
You can sign up for mybi-weekly newsletter called
Porch Life and send me an email.
I'd love to connect with folks.
That's how you reached out, jim, and so it's a good thing.
Jim (33:21):
Exactly, and.
I want to encourage ourlisteners to follow.
You've got so much goodmaterial out there that it is
really worthwhile In an era whenthere's so many things
commanding people's attention.
Really, what you're putting outthere is something that people
should pay attention to.
It'll help them a great deal.
Okay, thanks so much.
(33:42):
I appreciate it.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.