EP509: Spencer Burton - Iboga vs. Ibogaine — The Real Difference

In this powerful episode of Conversations with Kris, Spencer Burton opens up about his personal and spiritual journey through plant medicine — specifically Iboga and its derivative, Ibogaine.

They discuss the key differences between the two: Iboga, the root bark used ceremonially in Africa, offering a deep spiritual encounter and long integration process; and Ibogaine, a refined extract often used in medical detox and addiction recovery contexts.

Spencer shares what it truly means to face your trauma, not escape it, and how plant medicine — when approached with respect — can reconnect us with truth, humility, and the divine within.

This is medicine. It’s about awakening.

FOLLOW FOR MORE:

https://www.ibogarebirth.com

https://www.instagram.com/skip.bassist/

https://www.instagram.com/kristopherpace/

https://kristopherpace.com

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
I am positively Chris Pace and you are actively listening to
conversation with Chris. Yeah, Chris, Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for having me on this show, man.
I really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for being here. This is awesome.
Yeah, so my name is Spencer Burton, known by the witty name
Asambo. I'm a indigenously initiated and

(00:35):
traditionally trained a Boga provider, Masoko Boiti tradition
and do work full time working with this beautiful ancestral
plant medicine. And we run a retreat center
called the Boga Rebirth running 12 months out of the year.
And so I've been doing this workfor just shy of five years,

(00:58):
prenticing about two years priorto that.
Wow, so we're going to have to back up just a second 'cause we
know we had Sarah on the show 1 time and she talked about Agoga
and how she got it over there. I'd love to know more about this
tribe and the history behind it 'cause I know that there was a
long period of time they were not sharing this medicine with
the world. And then they've recently been

(01:20):
allowed to give it to the world,and we're now finding out that
it's like what, 85% effective against addiction?
Yep. So, yes.
So Nate, it's really amazing. And if if you go back to the
very beginning, you know, the medicine, the medicine was found
by the Obongo pygmies, which arethe small people out in the
Japanese jungle out in the Congo.
And it goes way back, I mean, way back before time was

(01:42):
counted. You go back to close to
original, you know, common ancestor days way back.
And the medicine has a beautifulorigin story of how it was
found. But as we know throughout
history, colonization happens and you know, the French
colonized Gabon and when they did, their first mission was to

(02:04):
do what almost every single, youknow, colonization.
The main colonization tactic would be which would be to wipe
out any sort of indigenous framework and start to bring in
Catholicism and Christianity. Well, Misoko Buiti tradition was
the one, was the one most distilled original form of Buiti

(02:26):
that was able and successful in going into hiding.
They were able to preserve the tradition in a very, in a very
original way. Now, one thing to know about the
tradition is it's, it's oral tradition.
Nothing's written down in this, in this tradition whatsoever.
So when we're when we're trying to investigate from a Western
view how we understand the Boga,how we understand Boiti,

(02:48):
anything that we read about it is going to come through a
different filter. It's going to come through a
different way of different operating system that human
beings start start to take on inthe West.
So it being an oral tradition passed down through watch list
and follow through generations means it's mastered throughout
generations. And as that colonization started

(03:09):
to spread and all the stuff thatstarted to happen, the Soka
Wheati was able to stay intact. It was able to stay close to its
original form. And what that means is, is, is
really that when we want to knowabout a Bogo medicine, we, we
when we want to know how this medicine works and how to
actually access the true healingand the potential of this

(03:30):
medicine, we actually have to goto the tradition.
We have to understand the tradition.
Now, whether that's somebody that's been rigorously trained
like myself or Sarah, going to somebody that understands and
has been initiated in this tradition is paramount to the
situation because we need to know exactly how the medicine
works. Now one of the beautiful things

(03:51):
about this medicine and with theresurgence of Ibogaine and all
this stuff, the psychedelic revolution that we're seeing in
the United States and all over, you know, Europe and all that
stuff, we really have to be ableto access the fundamental truth
behind the medicine. Because the addictive sort of
the attenuation to addiction that happens with Ibogaine and

(04:13):
Iboga is literally only the tip of the iceberg with this
medicine. It's, it's a, it's a fraction of
what the medicine can do. Because as we start to
investigate what addictions actually are, why somebody's
addiction addicted to substance,you know, science will tell you
that ultimately, when it roots down to the very core of things,
it's not the substance at all. The substance itself is a

(04:37):
method, a maladaptive strategy that we have taken on to be able
to make ourselves feel better about a very core and
fundamental issue that we have about being a human being, how
we developed, you know, where wecame from.
Our parents are, you know, society structure, the way that

(04:57):
we interpret the world, all of that stuff is so important.
And so the real truth about Misoko Buiti tradition about
Buiti healing and iboga medicineis it so much more.
Because what we really truly want to know the, the, the, the
real truth and the real healing with this medicine is to be able
to see ourselves and life in actuality in reality as it is.

(05:21):
So a really great way to to put the way that the healing works
with Iboga medicine or a complete healing works is that
you're able to see life as it is.
And what that kind of means is we're no longer trying to makes
make life what we think it should be.
We're sort of looking at ourselves with accuracy, with
acceptance. That is the baseline.

(05:43):
So that that level of acceptanceto be able to really just relax
into what is to be able to go look, this is how I developed.
This is where I am today. And all of my past has shaped me
mentally, spiritually and emotionally with a bunch of
stories and weavings and narratives leading me up to

(06:03):
today where I can have my reset and my rebirth.
Because what it's what it essentially does will help you.
Iboga medicine will help you digest your past, digest
everything leading up until today to be able to understand
how to start as a fresh human being today.
So a really beautiful way to putit, Chris, is like a lot of

(06:26):
people that come to see us, I'd say close to 100% of the people
that come to see us, they're troubled by something in their
past. It's very normal.
It's very normal with the Western world.
They're troubled by something intheir past.
So this small root, the small seed that's way back here
effects every single decision upuntil today.
Every little thing that we do inour life is based on our self

(06:49):
referential view of ourselves and the world.
And so to be able to go back to any memory in your life, go back
there, revisit it, look at it, pick it over and then come back
happy. That's a true healing with with
the bog of medicine. To be able to see why every
little piece leading up into today made me exactly who I am,

(07:11):
how it how it makes you exactly what you needed everything to be
who you are. In fact, you know, my very first
meeting with the book of medicine that was one of my
biggest healings was showing me all of these things that I used
to. It was I, I weaponized them
against myself. I would, I would say I shouldn't

(07:33):
have done this. This is a regret or this was
confused. All these things I would use to
shame myself throughout life. And what the medicine tried to
show me is that all the way backthere, every little piece, every
little piece created a mosaic, Atapestry that made me exactly
what I am today. So I could use every little bit

(07:54):
of it. So nothing was left behind for
me. You know, it, it, it's, it's a,
it's a process of catching up toyourself to no longer be a, a
slave to your mind. It's sort of like taking your
mind and putting it back on the tool shelf where you're using
your mind as as a really valuable tool, like a really

(08:16):
good friend, but it's not the boss.
It's never been intended to be the boss.
And in the West, and it's glorified.
It's like, you know, intellectualism, all this stuff.
Our minds become the the most important thing.
Most people, if you knock on 10 doors in your neighborhood, most
people will think they're their mind.
They think that's who they are. And so part of this is, is being

(08:37):
able to put that mind in its rightful place and to be able to
lead from a much bigger place, which we in with the tradition
call the soul. And really that's the our our
essence, our core. It's all written there, knows
exactly where to go, knows exactly how to get you there,
all of that stuff. So it's about reorganizing and
restructuring the way that we interpret ourselves and putting

(08:58):
ourselves back into an original blueprint and a Boga medicine is
the medicine to do that. Certainly is, and I mean I teach
something similar to to that, you know, in order to love
yourself and be happy with who you are, you have to become
grateful for every single thing that's ever happened to you in
life and is everything. And that's it's as simple as

(09:18):
that. I mean, the day that you look
back on your life and realize that all of it had to happen
exactly as it happened in order for you to be who you are, today
is the day that you become alive.
It's the first day you wake up and from that day you never can
go back. You're only going to ever be
living in the now as there's no future, there's no tomorrow,
there's no yesterday. You understand that things have
to happen. So I look at everything as

(09:40):
either educational or fun now. And like you know, and as and I
use psilocybin yoga, which I mean to me, the big part that
we're missing with plant medicine is so many people are
doing these ceremonies. They're walking away with this
clear head and they're looking at life with a whole new
perspective, but they have nothing to go back to when they
get home. And so they're coming back and I
went to a bufo and I mean every single one that I go and I never

(10:02):
had gone and watched and I did actually at Nick's and it was an
amazing, amazing ceremony. But it was such a different
healing process to actually observe as opposed to
participate, because when you'reparticipating, you're so focused
on you, but when you're observing and holding space for
people, you're focused on them. And so it was really interesting

(10:23):
the healing that I got from justbeing there, you know, in the
situation, in the presence. And so it was like one of those
really awesome experiences that kind of opened my eyes to a
whole lot of new stuff. And, you know, I, I talked to
Sarah and, you know, I've done Bufo and DMT.
Those were kind of my unlocking things that, you know, started

(10:44):
the whole thing. And then psilocybin microdosing,
obviously. And then, you know, once I got
with yoga and breath work and meditation, I really came a long
way with all that, you know, Andthen now I got to a point where
it's like, you know what, I understand.
I don't, I'm not happy that my brother recently died in June of
addiction. But I know that the last text
message I sent him was that I finally found the cure.

(11:05):
And that was through two days before he died at 44 years old
from alcoholism. And so, you know, almost, but
you know, at the same time, the way the universe works, then,
you know, this beautiful young lady writes a song for me.
And then now it's up for a Grammy Award.
It's been heard by over 1,000,000 people.
So I mean, that's the nature of things, right?
I'll never think that's the greatest thing that ever
happened to me. But I suffered a TBI in the
military and at the time it was the worst thing that happened

(11:27):
because it eliminated me from all these things.
But now it's the best thing thatever happened because I would
have never done yoga, let alone become a yoga instructor.
Like that's just, did you get offered that in high school?
I know I didn't. So it's such a cool thing to me
that it's so powerful and that everybody I talked to who's ever
been with Iboga has the same demeanor, the same concept of, I

(11:51):
mean, awake, you get it. You're not trying anymore.
You're just simply existing and living and doing the thing.
And I find it really amazing because the people that have
come in contact that have done ibogaine, they preach ibogaine
out the wazoo. And I know we're going to get
into that in a few minutes because we really need to
clarify because I'd love to knowthe difference.
I know the difference, but I'd love to know the actual
difference. But I think there's like way

(12:14):
more to iboga as a whole healingprocess and ibogaine, there's
more like a targeted shot healing or something.
Because the people that don't that I do ibogaine, I don't see
that same piece, the same piece that I have, the same piece that
you have, the same piece that Sarah has.
I see people that are still conflicted.
Is that a bad thing or is it like a stepping stone?

(12:35):
Are we getting closer or should we be pushing the whole plant?
Yeah, it's a great question. Question, Chris, I'll tell you a
little bit about my background before I get into it.
I mean, I will say before I start there, I will say that
there's a reason that I do this work over ibogaine personally
and ibogaine before we get into it.

(12:57):
Ibogaine is an incredible medicine, but currently our
model, it's very new and in, in my perception and a bleaching
perspective, very fragmented. And I'll get into that in a
minute. My story, I'll give you the
short version. About 12 years ago, you know, I

(13:19):
was born with a debilitating illness called cystic fibrosis.
When I was young, they gave me, I think it was 16 years to live.
My brother has it as well. He's received 2 double lung
transplants as a as a product ofthe disease and that sent me on
a, a course of being in the hospital being hospitalized

(13:41):
maybe 3 * a year in my late 20s up until my mid 30s.
So I'd be in the hospital for a couple weeks a year getting
antibiotics and I was in a good deal of pain.
So they started giving me Vicodin and and different
opioids to assist with that. Well, sooner than later I
realized I was stuck there, thatI was hooked physically on pain

(14:03):
medication. Then it became recreational.
I was seeking it outside of the hospital.
I was then it, it, it, you know,gravitated to needles, all that
stuff. I was in a bad, bad place.
And 12 years ago, trying to research ibogaine was not the
same world. So there wasn't very much
information about it. There wasn't very many centers

(14:24):
that were doing it. And you were, you were like.
Did you get anything? Was there like?
Yeah, there's a place, there's places that do it.
I found one pod. I found one podcast with with I,
I don't actually remember. I think I came across, I came

(14:45):
across this podcast randomly, randomly, and anyway, I listened
to it and I knew, so I knew I had to go.
But you know, at this point, youknow, you're, you're, you're
flying to Mexico. You don't know if you're going
to come back with both of your kidneys.
You, you really, I mean, you're,it's, it's wild, right?
So so. It does sound pretty sketchy
when you talk about yeah. Right.

(15:07):
And I I don't give. $7000 and we're going to have you come
down to Mexico and then we're going to give you this stuff
that's going to knock you out for a little bit and then, you
know, we'll send you back home. No big deal.
No problem. But you know, at that point I.
Could go wrong. At that point I was doing some
really crazy stuff to myself. Anyway, I knew I had to do it.
There was something deep in my core that knew I had to go, so I
did. I went and it was a beautiful,

(15:30):
It was a beautiful place. They move you over to a short
acting opioid and you know, a couple days later they take you
to a hospital room situation. They turn down the lights, give
you a hospital bed, they give you a big pill of ibogaine and
let you just be there for 24 hours and you're sorting it out
yourself. So you go through this process

(15:50):
and it was a whole bunch of really well meaning people that,
you know, give gave their best advice and it was a whole bunch
of the psychological Western stuff that we're typically used
to in counseling and, and all that stuff.
But once you're done with the, the week there that you fly
home, that's it. And what I noticed was it
worked. So it worked for me.

(16:11):
I was ready. So I stopped.
And as time went on, I realized that I was missing some very
crucial information about what actually happened to me.
And there's nobody to really discuss it with.
There was no tools. There was no way to truly
integrate. And I know the that things have
changed and integration is, is come a long way.

(16:32):
But I was lacking in that department.
Didn't know what happened to me in my life was progressively
getting better. And I didn't know why.
So that sent me on a course to start to research where this
medicine comes from. You know, what is ibogaine?
What is? Where does it come from?
And you know, of course, that. I really liked the fact that you
waited till after you did it to go do the research.

(16:54):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Go give it a go and then I'll
look into it, yeah. Well, so I did all the research
I could on ibogaine prior to doing it.
But Iboga medicine, once I foundout, you know, this is coming
from from an indigenous medicine, I started to research
that and, you know, I would go on YouTube and there was just
all these crazy videos of, you know, Africans painted up in the

(17:15):
dark playing hard. And you're like, I don't know
how to use this. This doesn't seem relevant
whatsoever. Well, anyway, through a course
of. Yeah, exactly.
So through a course of synchronicities, I found the
only person in the Western worldthat was doing mesoko buiti
iboga retreats and signed up. And I went, this was quite a few
years later. And when I went, I, I had an

(17:40):
experience that was completely different.
It was completely different thanmy I begin experience.
First of all, I was introduced to the teachings.
And I will say that that part ofthis part of this medicine is
understanding certain frameworksand certain blueprints of how
reality and nature works. It's important structure in

(18:03):
order to understand yourself, the world around you, and how to
put things into deep practice when you go forward.
I was introduced to the teachings and I was also
introduced to Ebola medicine, which was a completely different
experience. I was able to meet myself on a
level that I had never met myself before.
I was able to go back to opioidsafter ibogaine.

(18:24):
Or did you stay away after altogether?
A good number of years later, I started taking kratom after
ibogaine, and I realized, oh man, I, I, I didn't get it.
Something's missing here. Part of the message.
Now I'm just frustrated. I need the rest of it.

(18:45):
That's right. And, and ultimately, I, I, I, I,
I, I had a, a typical, typical pitfall that we see with, with
people, which is they will do ibogaine after a heavy addiction
and then after a certain amount of time, think that they have it
under control. And then they'll attempt to go
back and go, Oh yeah, I can just, you can, I can use it like

(19:05):
this. And they get an overconfidence
to them because it's a fragmented, A fragmented
understanding of themselves and,and all that stuff.
Not to say that ibogaine doesn'thave his place.
I'll get into that. Anyway, my story.
So I had a great, incredible healing with Iboga medicine.
It sent me on the path to apprentice for a few years at a,
at a retreat center. And after that went to Africa,

(19:27):
got my initiation, got my training there, studied the
tradition extensively and then hit the ground running to do
this work. So when we're talking about the
differences between Ibogaine andIboga, the first thing that we
have to understand is that ibogaine itself is 1 molecule of
the 38 plus that are present in Iboga medicine.

(19:48):
Now they they ramp it up so highthat the experience with
ibogaine is a very, very intenseIt's very good, very good at
stripping out opiate use. It's very good at stripping out
things out of the system, detoxifying the body to remove
this the substance with and reset the neural receptors so

(20:11):
that we don't experience withdrawal symptoms going
forward. And that can feel like a true
healing if you've been addicted for a really long time.
The problem is, is we do not have tools when we go forward.
The tools that we need to go forward is to understand what
actually happened, what transpired in my life, to create
a need to escape from my life. We always say in our retreats,

(20:32):
we say, you know, the purpose isto build a life you don't need
to escape from. And part of what we're trying to
escape from is our minds. We're trying to understand what
our minds are. And they've become bodybuilders
over in the West. So they become so souped up.
And we have way too much information packed inside.
And we have all of these, you know, beliefs about life, these
beliefs about the way things work, the beliefs about, you

(20:54):
know, potential fears. And, you know, biologically, our
technology has gone way faster than our biology, and we've
reduced all of our fears. You know, we don't have to run
from tigers and bears so much anymore.
And So what we end up doing, ourminds become really adapted to
trying to find and making up newfears.
And so a lot of people are running this program throughout

(21:17):
their life that is haywire. It's just haywire.
And one of the settling, one of the settling effects of iboga
and ibogaine as well, is that itcan help to detoxify a lot of
these things and put things moreinto a homeostasis so that when
we come back to life, we're actually we're feeling like
we're interpreting new information for the first time.

(21:38):
The problem is, is that when we access a reset within ourselves,
if we, if we're able to set our body and mind back to 0,
essentially what we, what we need to do with the neurogenesis
and neuroplasticity that ibogaine or iboga provides is we
have to have the proper toolbox to be able to continue to

(22:00):
recondition and reprogram in accordance with what is true.
If we don't have that, the likelihood of us starting to
slip back into old mental patterns is very, very good.
We start to, you know, let's saywe, we remove everything from
you, we set you back to zero andthen you start putting the same
mental garbage back in inside. Well, what ends up happening is

(22:23):
eventually re the, the old patterns will get re instilled
inside of somebody. You're essentially retraining
the old program back into yourself.
And so part of what we do and part of the way that the the
tradition works is to help people understand how to address
themselves, how to see themselves, how to be able to
understand what happened to them.
And part of the the review process that happens in a Misoko

(22:47):
Boiti retreat is a guided situation.
You know, if you have a Boiti provider or somebody that
understands this medicine fully with you, they can help lead you
through your ceremony to go to the places where you can get the
questions answered that you needin order to understand yourself
fully. Yeah.
With ibogaine, my experience with Ibogaine was I took the

(23:10):
pill man and it was a washing machine for 24 hours.
Things are flying, stuff's happening.
And I have no idea anything, anything that's happening to me.
I just, you know, hold on hope. Just trust it, hope it works.
And then at the end, it's like, hey, I saw this, you know, this
is what happened. And nobody really has the
information for you or anywhere to point you so.

(23:32):
Well, and even to take it further, would it be safe to say
like I don't know that this is makes a lot of sense to me, but
the follow up the next day with DMT, I mean, if you hadn't
already twisted someone's mind up, you certainly are going to
the second day. And now they've got to deal with
those two different experiences,which are very, very powerful,

(23:53):
and most of these people have never touched anything like it.
So what's the logic on that? Did you do that?
Was there a follow? Up yeah, so, so so my
understanding, my understanding is I don't I don't I don't
personally see value in it myself.
And here's why. Yes, after my ibogaine, they
follow you up with the five meo.I didn't want to do it.

(24:15):
I was like, there's no fucking way, man.
Pardon my language. There's no way I'm doing.
I'm done. I don't want to do that.
And they were like, trust me, you want to do it.
So they talked me into it. And hey man, I was no stranger
to drugs, so you know. Paid 7 grand, you're getting
your money's worth anyway. Why not?
You know, Well, I saw the purpose of it.
You know, I see the purpose of it for something like, I have a
game that can create a. It can create sort of a I just

(24:40):
got smashed by a truck feeling in life and everything comes
full reality to you. And so a lot of people that
haven't had the experience of oneness or the connectivity
between all things, it can bringsome levity into their
experience so that they can understand and have a little bit
of a reference change on how they view life.

(25:01):
I understand the approach, but it's a very Western approach.
And in Iboga this would be completely unnecessary.
The reason is, is because your follow through is a provider to
be able to help people, bring them back into reality and see
why that is a very, very good and useful and workable thing so
that they're able to access their own power going forward

(25:24):
and being able to build their own life as opposed to trying to
lighten them up with something that is going to give.
Them a Western thing right, likewe're going to it's a very.
Western thing. Turn you upside down, spin you
around, throw you up in the air,and then when we're done, we're
going to give you a giant dose of love to send you home.
But what's the difference? So how is it that people are not
what, what, what would the, the Buichi tribe do after said first

(25:47):
experience? Is there a process or a change
of lifestyle that happens withinthere?
Because obviously that's the problem, right?
It's the follow through. It's them going back and living
the same exact we're, we're comfortable with what's
consistent and familiar, right? That's how humans are.
So when we go back home, we've had this amazing experience.
We start telling everybody aboutit.
They look at us like we've got 5heads and then eventually they

(26:08):
wear you down and you end up going back into the system in
the matrix, right? So what's the solution to that?
I know iboga doesn't have that issue as much.
I mean, it's certainly not foolproof, but what's the
solution? Because I mean, to me there's, I
found yoga and that became my healer, but became a steady
healing. Now it took me 20 years to do
what I probably could have done in 20 days.

(26:30):
But I know what I know now. But nevertheless, I have a
foundation. So when I don't, I don't need to
be touched up by plant medicine all the time.
I can actually just use meditation and yoga and breath
work to activate the same exact things.
But I don't feel like there's any of that going on.
There's not like a, a training or a school or a community.

(26:51):
However, I have one built already, so we can use it.
But I was going to talk to you about that later.
But is that this is that where we're, I mean, is that why
people are going back three and four and five, six times and
seven times? I mean, it's almost like a, a
rite of passage or bragging about how many times they do
hallucis and I don't understand.I, I got what I needed and then
I, I was good. I'm like, perfect, we're out.

(27:11):
You know, like it's not something I'm playing with
because I take it really seriously.
I think it's very serious. Yep.
And and the first thing to know about medicine and the, and the
whole goal of Iboga rebirth and,and how we do our work is the
purpose of medicine is so you don't need it anymore.
That's the purpose. The purpose is to help you
actually heal. But our, our, our western
mindset on medicine is not that we don't take medicine to heal

(27:32):
here. We if we go and get a medicine
prescribed, it's to mitigate a symptom.
It's to, you know, sidestep something so I can stay
productive with, with Iboga medicine.
It's, it's very direct, it, it shows you life in reality and it
shows you nature itself. It shows you life itself and you
become a student of life for good.

(27:53):
And So what ends up happening isyou start to study yourself.
And as you start to study yourself, you start to see
yourself. And as you start to see
yourself, you begin to accept yourself.
And when you accept yourself, now you can trust yourself,
trusting yourself going forward.So we're no longer tethering
ourself to outside sources for information all the time.

(28:13):
Now, that doesn't mean you neverlisten to anything ever again
and never take any advice. What it means is, is that you're
the final authority on what is right and what is wrong within
your life and how it how it works within nature and the
framework of nature itself, lifeitself, how life works and being
in reality. And so to answer your first
question, what's different abouta bubble?

(28:34):
What do you do the day after? Well, part of part of the reason
that you come to somebody that is booty is because as we go
through a week with somebody after their medicine, they're
going to need counseling. They're going to need direction
and understanding. Part of our training and part of
our understanding and why we take so much medicine to prepare
for being a provider in this tradition is so that we can see

(28:56):
what's happening for people whenthey might still be confused.
And so part of our experience with people when they're there
is to help direct them back intothemselves to be able to find
the place that we always have the answer.
It's like going right back inside and going, oh, wait, I
know exactly what the answer is.I just don't like the answer

(29:17):
exactly. We know that.
So here's the trick is to be able to trust that voice is the
number one goal of Iboga. To be able to trust the voice,
to be able to, to, to give yourself what you need in order
to love, respect and trust yourself at all times and to
repattern and reprogram exactly as nature intended us for for us

(29:39):
to be. So when we go to a BOGO medicine
and we eat the medicine, if I just had people there, I gave
you medicine and then it was a silent retreat and nobody
talked. You'd have people that might be
able to sort some things out forthemselves.
But the truth about it is unlesswe're given the proper tools, we
won't be able to do the job. And the way that I always
describe it is if I, if you havea flat tire, Chris, and you've

(30:02):
never changed one in your life and I say, hey, buddy, go change
the tire. Here's a spatula.
You're going to go out, you're going to go out there and go,
well, Spencer said this, this isthe tool.
I'm going to figure it out. And you, you go out there and
you're not only not only are younot going to do a good job, but
based on how you've interpreted life, you may shame yourself for
it. You may feel poorly about your

(30:23):
ability to know and you may become confused.
Like I can't really even trust myself to do something like
that. And then we get sort of lost in
the jungle. We become lost in the, in the
weeds of the mind with all of these stories and beliefs.
Part of our experience and what we do is we give people those
tools after, after in their, in their, in the fire talk before

(30:45):
they have medicine. And then we're then we're
helping them to access the places where they're still hung
up so they can go in and go, huh, That's what I've been
doing. That's where I've I've gotten
stuck and I have had all the answers.
I'll tell you something very interesting, Chris.
You know, I've been doing this work for years.
And we always have people write down a list of their questions
that they have about, about life, about themselves and their

(31:08):
inward questions. Like, why do I always feel like
I have anxiety or, you know, howdo I use my voice?
Why do I always feel scared whenI have to use my voice?
These types of questions and almost almost every single
retreat I have most of the people, regardless if they get
those questions answered throughthe medicine in their journey,
the next day they look at that sheet and they go, these are

(31:30):
stupid. I have all these answers.
The reason is, is because we, wehave this mechanism in our minds
that tries to protect us from things that that we think are
scary and tries to point us towards things that are
pleasurable. And we're like, kind of like
minions. We're like robots to this, to
this kind of this desire system.It's like stay away from pain,

(31:51):
go towards pleasure. And I'm not inferring that that
goes away, but we start to use it to anchor our experience and
to be able to go back inside andgo, what is the answer to this?
So when when most people ask a question to themselves, like how
do I handle the situation? The truth of the situation is
right there. It's always right there.

(32:14):
They just don't like the answer.Yeah.
And and living in reality means that we become way more
courageous. We've become way more courageous
because we know we're walking around with the entire universe
inside of ourselves. We have it all inside take.
Responsibility for ourselves. We can't make excuses. 100%.
Anybody else? Are you sure?
That's right, that. Doesn't sound right.
I think everyone's supposed. To well, there's nothing.

(32:35):
There's nothing outside that's actually affecting you.
It's only where our attention isput.
And so truly the, the core of itmeans, you know, our, our
guidance and our counseling. Our Wheaty guidance and
counseling is always directing somebody back to the original
blueprint where they can actually go back inside and have

(32:56):
some simplicity and some quietude.
It's a, it's this form of spiritual minimalism, Wheaty.
It's a, it's a form of reducing so much information and input
and so much, you know, gatheringonto the hard drive that we do
in life to where we go up into our minds when we want a
solution to a problem every single time, instead of asking
ourselves directly, what's the answer here?

(33:20):
Our mind wants to talk us in andout.
It wants to dance around, make things more comfortable, create,
create scenarios, create. Then you go into wormholes and
then all of a sudden you wonder why you feel like shit, right?
And the truth about it is, is that that that reality in life
is always right here. It's right where you are.
It's not up a mountain with a new guru.

(33:40):
It's not with a new medicine. It's always right here.
You don't even need a bulba medicine to heal.
The truth about it is, is we have to be able to accept life
as it is. We have to look at it directly.
We have to look at ourselves directly and keep it simple.
It's like they say in the tradition, it's, you know, don't
think hard about anything. Think easy.

(34:00):
What's, what's the solution here?
When you trust yourself, Chris, when you fully trust yourself as
a human being, it doesn't matterhow much you don't like the
answer. You're going to do it because
you realize you cannot twist that person up inside anymore,
that the truth is always true nomatter what you do.
If you go, you know, ever since I was a kid, this has been in my

(34:21):
heart. I want to do this with my life.
And you're still not doing it. All you're doing is twisting and
distorting the truth, which can never happen for too long.
It just starts to spring back like a rubber band and comes
full force back into your life in high definition.
And then you wonder why, why we're suffering so much.
So part of it is bringing ourselves back to the core.

(34:43):
Now let's get back to ibogaine. You know ibogaine.
Ibogaine is a synthetic form of one of the molecules, this
ibogaine. There are many other alkaloids
within iboga medicine that kind of create a system of security
and safety that happens. Ibogaine tends to be far more
cardio toxic than ibogas, meaning that iboga medicine is a
lot safer for a lot of people. There are some medical

(35:06):
implications and things that we adhere to.
We always do medical screenings for people, all of that stuff.
But above the medicine, just like plant medicines has a
natural ceiling to it. It has a natural insulating
quality where everything's kind of counterbalance.
All these alkaloids work perfectly because it's nature
itself. And so the other way that we put
it, you know, in bleaky tradition, they'll tell you

(35:27):
straight up, ibogine has no spirit, it's not alive, It does
not communicate in the same way.You may feel like we have these
communications with ibogaine, but in reality a natural
byproduct of iboga medicine is that is it is actually alive, it
is actually intelligent and it can Co create with you.

(35:48):
It can help you to understand things in a much more palatable,
relatable way. Is it kind of like iboga would
be a conversation, whereas ibogaine is just one talking at
you? Like that's kind of what it
sounds like as a, you know, as an overall synopsis of it.
And also what are the other molecules that would be
effective in an iboga that we'remissing out on?

(36:09):
I mean, the ones that make you feel the comfort stuff.
Why don't they, why don't they want those in there?
Why are we trying to? Well, the the problem, the
process, the problem as I see itis that medical science wants to
understand the courses of actionfor all of the things that it's
using so it can study what it's actually doing and affecting in
the body. The problem is, is that even
with ibogaine, they have not been able to truly map out

(36:31):
everything that it's doing. It is way more complex, but they
figure, hey, if we can simplify down to 1, we can start to chart
a course here. We can start to understand
what's actually happening withinthe human body and all of these
things. Now you add a Boga medicine,
which is all this other stuff, and it's just like everything
lights up and they have no idea how to map every little specific

(36:52):
course of action within the human body.
It's very, it's very hard to study and approve different
drugs, that kind of thing. And as we're seeing with
science, you know, they're, they're starting to formulate
different synthetic molecules that perhaps won't have a
psychoactive component, but willhave just as an effective
addictive cessation component. Now that's pretty much the

(37:14):
mapping. That's, that's why they want to
do, that's why they want to do it that way is because it's
easier to understand and it's easier to control.
The way that I see it, this is. Just a dosage thing also like
with Iboga, you don't like I from what Sarah said, I
understand that you could take avery small amount of Iboga and
it may have a large effect or you could take a lot of it and

(37:34):
it may have some effect, but it's going to have the effect
that you're supposed to have no matter how much you want to
take. Whereas ibogaine, they can
measure it, they can control it,they can distribute it, they
can. That's right.
And so and so, yeah, that's, that's part of it.
And then, you know, one of the things that's a very personal
view, but it the way that I see it is that it's a colonization
mindset. Colonization divides and

(37:55):
conquers, just like people invade a country and they
colonize that country, they divide and they conquer and they
try to bring what they consider their order to things so it can
be orderly in the way that they deem necessary.
Nature does it the way that nature does it, and it's always
perfect. So what we do with medicines and

(38:16):
what we've been doing with medicines in the West is
colonizing them. We separate things out of a
natural medicine to try to use it in a way that is charitable.
But we feel like, hey, if we canpull this one piece out and
discard the rest, this is the nugget.
This is the piece that's actually worth something.
And my, my viewpoint on that haschanged dramatically over the

(38:40):
years. It's, it's, it's, you know, part
of the reason we don't like natural medicines.
You know, let's say you're taking something like white
Willow bark instead of aspirin. Well, it's because it takes
longer to work. You have to build up stores
within the body. Our society is based on
timeliness and productivity. We want to get back to work as
fast as possible. We want the symptoms to go away.

(39:02):
We don't really even care about healing it.
And so part of the issue that I see is that when we bring a
Western mindset to a very indigenous thing, we are going
to be confronted with some very distinct problems.
We're going to have some very distinct problems going forward.
How to integrate people into a new way of thinking.
Because the truth about it is ifyou give people ibogaine, you

(39:24):
give people a boga, they come back into a level of reality.
And when we see reality for whatit is, we start to change the
way that we view life. The problem is, is that unless
we're able to start to re pattern and recondition the way
that we think about ourselves, we'll go right back to the way
that we were before in a different way.

(39:44):
And so the way that I see it andwhat we're currently working on
is trying to bring the Msokoboiti tradition into
ibogaine fields. Because the truth about it is,
is that these two medicines havegreat, they have a great
combination and a great ability to amplify ibogaine and a bogus
success. For instance, if we have an

(40:05):
opiate addict that goes to ibogaine and then they're able
to follow up with a msokoboiti retreat.
Not only does that that addict have a chance to really heal at
the very core of what's happening and gain new tools to
be able to stay that way, but also the Ibogaine center, their
success rate goes up. All of these things.

(40:27):
Eventually what we're going to see over time is that we're
going to lead back to needing and relying on the indigenous
networks to be able to, you know, sustain the type of
healing that we're after. Because part of what we're
healing from Chris, is the Western mentality.
That's part of the reason of Boga decided to come over to the
West in the 1st place is becausethere's imbalances here that are

(40:50):
trying to be recorrected. And unless we use and help and
reciprocate with these indigenous tribes, we're going
to be lost because the original foundational information is
simplicity. And that's what we're seeking.
You'll see a, you know, a rise in pop culture of things like
minimalism. And the reason these things are

(41:10):
starting to rise is because we're seeking an escape from
from excess, from too many thoughts, from too many, too
much consumerism, all of these things.
And this is all going to start to have to to be reconciled at
some point. And so to be able to go back to
an Indigenous tradition with respect, reverence, and to be

(41:30):
able to do things exactly as they've been doing it is what's
required in order for this medicine to truly have its place
in the West the way that it's intended to be.
Now, let me ask, is there a fearat all of introducing the
Western people to this village and this tribe that?
I mean, obviously they've dodgeda lot of bullets to still be
here after all these years and not have their medicine taken

(41:51):
from them. But let's be honest, the Western
world is not exactly gentle and polite to people who have
something we want. And if they can control that,
they can eliminate it from the Earth because it can only be
grown in one place, right? And now they can take it off the
planet altogether and control the ibogaine, which they can now
dilute, pollute, and everything else that they do to things.
And so now where are we, you know?

(42:12):
And so this is where I get to that point of like, how do we
fly everybody to Africa on a budget?
Or is there another solution? Can we create the ibogaine
follow up system using yoga, certifying people under yoga
because it's not the right thingto do Iboga, but it's you know
what I mean? Like similar type of lifestyle.
Yogi's live simplistic, like simple lives.

(42:33):
We live minimal lives, we live very peaceful lives, right?
So they're, they're aligned. I believe all the things that
are on a higher frequency all align up at same point.
You know, it's like you're on the way up there.
Once you get there, it all comesto the same place.
So to me, is there a solution that works without having to
disrupt and disturb and to tear apart this beautiful tribe and
this beautiful tradition? Yeah, yeah.

(42:55):
So great question. So Iboga is way, way smarter
than we even know. It's way smarter.
It is so intelligent, man. It was able.
So get this, Chris, this is incredible.
It's like almost a miracle it was able somehow to convince the
Gavinese government government to make it a national treasure,

(43:18):
even though most of the Gavinesegovernment practices
Christianity, there's Muslims there, all that stuff.
And Bwiti is sort of this fringeweird, but.
It's just, it is what it. Is yet somehow it's protected by
the by the government as a national treasure.
This medicine is way more intelligent and when it says I'm

(43:38):
going to go West, it means it there's not really much of A
danger in my view of those typesof things.
In fact, you're going to read a lot of Western stuff about
Iboga, sustainability and all ofthese things.
When you ask, when you talk to to the shamans of the tradition,
they say this is is never going to go.
There's so much Iboga here and it only goes out in ways that

(43:59):
are, I mean, ideally it goes outonly by, you know, people that
are Boiti giving it to other Boiti.
There's poachers, there's other organizations that are starting
to try to control the flow of Iboga.
But I don't really worry too much about the machinations of
all those things because I know this medicines, it's it's

(44:20):
brilliant. It's brilliant.
It's it's a matter of trust. It's it's a understanding this
medicine and working with it forso many years.
I know how incredibly intelligent it truly is, way
smarter than human beings, that's for sure.
Knows everything about everybody.
And so and so part of part of the reason that it's been been

(44:41):
put out. The shamans of the tradition
aren't too worried about that because, you know, I would say
that the bigger worry is using ibogaine and not respecting and
part helping participate in the traditions and the indigenous
reciprocity that's necessary in order to preserve these

(45:04):
traditions. And also to give credit to the
original medicine, the original tradition, because if we want
real healing with this medicine,we need beauty.
Those two things are inseparable.
You will not, you will not reachits full potential without both.
That's. How do they feel about it?
Are they against ibogaine or arethey for it?

(45:25):
I mean, it's certainly helping people.
So I'm sure that that's a good thing.
But also like, like you said, I mean, they've kind of diluted or
took out the, you know, I mean, they're they're messing with
nature and they're not. And also what is it more
effective when you're in Africa at the village?
Because I know like Bufo only works when you're the toads are
actually where they're supposed to be.

(45:47):
It's not the same for the Iboga plant.
So, so about Iboga. Iboga responds based on the from
my my experience, it responds based on the skill and love and
reverence of the Buiti initiatedprovider that is responsible for

(46:11):
carrying the medicine. OK, so how well that person
carries the medicine, how thorough their healing has been,
how deep they've gone with the medicine, how much they've
confronted themselves and live in that integrity full time.
The medicine knows all of that. So when we carry the medicine in
the West, we are carrying it in accordance to the Iboga's

(46:33):
wishes. It wants to be here and it wants
to be here with you. The the real, the real where
push comes to shove is making sure that the person that is
administering Iboga is clean, that they are living a good,
witty life in their heart and they're not.
It's like what we do in our own minds and own hearts when
nobody's watching. That's important.

(46:55):
And if we have that, then the effectiveness is just as
effective as the village. I mean, we can bring, we can
bring incredible healings in theWest no problem, you know?
That would be safe to say Iboga knew that Ibogaine was going to
exist and that it was going to happen.
Yeah, I would say, I would say that's right, even though, you
know, I, I can't. It allowed it to happen then.
Yep. I mean, there's so much of that,

(47:16):
Chris, that's a mystery and, andlots of ideas and things and,
and that's not really. Not meant to get into all those
questions but just curious. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's just
that there's a lot of mental activity that can come with that
and try to figure it out. What I know for sure is that
Iboga, Iboga knows what it's doing.

(47:37):
Exactly. Knows.
Trust it. Yeah, it's trust it.
You trust yourself, therefore it's good.
That's good. And as long as as long as you're
doing, you're doing clean good work, you you take care of
yourself, you take care of life itself and you take care of the
people that are in front of you.The the medicine's incredibly,
incredibly, incredibly powerful.So, you know, in terms of, in

(47:59):
terms of, you know, Western people going to the tribe and to
answer that question that you had, it's I think their view on
ibogaine is more one of why would you take something that
is, that is ours and turn it into something that is yours and
not want to include us? Because the the the problem is

(48:20):
is that. The key ingredients, like
they're taking out the good stuff, you know, like and also
ibogaine becomes a little more violent of a situation, right?
Like it's not as gentle I guess,or kind.
I, I begin is, I begin is just acompletely different beast.
You know, the two get confused alot.

(48:41):
So the conversations I have withpeople, I, I, I talk about it
consistently in our screening calls.
I talk about consistently in ourretreats when we're educating
people. But honestly, the, the
medicines, it's like apples and oranges in my, in my view,
because I begin isn't a bad medicine.
It's not the medicine that I provide.
And I provide iboga medicine because iboga medicine is not

(49:02):
only what worked for me, but people that come from ibogaine
that come to me finally get whatthey were looking for because
they'll finally find a piece of themselves that has been left
behind in a new way. That's not to say, and I don't
want to infer, that ibogaine is.No, no, absolutely not. 1/2
assed medicine or or the people that are doing it would have

(49:23):
great intentions. I know wonderful people working
in the field of ibogaine. I know wonderful people that are
out there doing good work. But I know one thing for myself
is that I want to go to the original medicine.
I want to go to the original framework.
I want to go. I want to go back to the
medicine that was back when the common ancestor was there as an
encyclopedia for how to be a good human being.

(49:46):
That's where I want to go. Because when we get that simple
information, we realize we don't.
We're not missing anything. We have it all with us.
We've been carrying it around. We just couldn't hear it.
Our mind was full of shit. There's so much stuff up there.
Sarah put it in a good way to meso that I could understand, she
said. Ibogaine is like your Lululemon
yoga moms, the people that go that style and Iboga is the

(50:09):
grand masters that go to India and learn all the, you know, and
she goes, does that make sense? And I go, actually that makes
great sense. I love the yoga moms.
I think they're great. They fill the classes, they come
to yoga, they do a great job andit's effective and it does have
its place. But there's very few of us that
go seek out the actual treasure that lies within yoga in India
and those. Are the Here's the issue.
Here's the issue, Chris. The main issue is that our

(50:31):
Western framework, and we deal with this a lot when people come
into retreat and it's something that we have to work diligently
to help people understand, is that we really want in the West
to be able to swallow a pill, have it work and not be involved
in the process. With we.
Want we want to swallow. We want to swallow the medicine,

(50:54):
have it do what it does, OK, I'mfixed and go back into our life.
That's. Right.
The truth about the truth about it is and what we work with and
how we work with it is that whenpeople come in, it's it is an
interaction you're going to haveto face yourself and when you
face yourself, it's the easiest thing in the world if you want
it to be. The more that we can admit and

(51:16):
understand and accept all of those things, the freer we are,
the quicker we're going to be. It's like this, it's a light
switch, super quick you. Can't go back.
But the thing about it is, is you have to do it.
Iboga is going to Iboga is goingto go, OK, Iboga is like, we
want it to be a lifeguard and jump in and save us when we're

(51:37):
drowning. But Iboga is more like this.
It's more like that little orange preserver on the rope.
We throw it out there to you as a, as a, as an Iboga provider
and you still got, you still have to grab it.
You have to, have to have the willingness to grab it, swim
yourself out of the water, climbinto the boat and dry yourself
off. That's, that's the difference.
And so when we're, when we're working with people, we need, we

(52:00):
need them to understand that they're going to do all of the
work, that they're, they're the ones that are going to face
themselves. They're the ones that are going
to make decisions and they're the ones that are going to put
their life back together. That it's not an escape, it's
not a magic pill, it's not goingto just magically change you.
What is important is understanding the tradition,

(52:21):
getting the teaching so that we understand how to access that
information and do what needs totake place in order to put our
lives back in order, the way that we we want them and that
we're excited to live. I tell people all the time when
they ask me about meditation, they go, oh, I can't meditate.
And I'm like, well, you know, meditation is like taking
yourself on a date and then asking yourself at the end of

(52:42):
the day, if you would ask yourself on a second date.
And as I tell people that I've never had anybody go, oh, I
would totally take myself back out.
They're always like, I don't think I would take myself.
I'm like, that's what everyone else says too.
I go, I would love to take myself on another date.
I can tell you that right now because I love who I am.
I'm good. I have nothing to hide from
myself because I don't hide anything.
I live in my soul, not my brain.So, and that's because I have

(53:06):
brain damage. So it works out great.
Like, it's easier, but it's so funny because they're happy to
admit that they would not take themselves on another date, but
then they turn right around and complain that people don't want
to be around #1 to date them. And it's like, Gee, I wonder
why? Like maybe you should stop and
figure out what you are and who you are before you continue to
knock out the bowling pens. Yeah, otherwise you're going to

(53:28):
be constantly trying to move, escape, run, and get away from
the very core truths that your soul is telling you.
That's why meditation is hard for people, as they don't want
to be with themselves because there's something about
themselves that they feel is notright, but the truth about it
is, and we see it for what it is.
It's a full picture acceptance and you're able to start to

(53:50):
create a friendship and a relationship with self in a way
that allows you to just be, to just be with yourself.
And ultimately, I mean, if you talk to, if you talk to Tibetan
Buddhist yoga masters, all of these people in higher
meditation states, they'll tell you that our view of meditation
is even skewed, that it's reallyjust being able to sit with

(54:13):
yourself and be, to see it, see things as they are, to be right
there and to enjoy it and so. Right.
Yeah, present, grateful. There next year heading back to
India for my grand mastership ofmeditation.
I got my grand mastership in yoga, but I I spent 21 days
meditating with my Swami and he's an incredible human being.

(54:37):
And so, you know, but you have to be really in a place where
you understand what's going on around us and literally stop and
go, OK, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it.
And then I think at that point, you start to seek something.
And most people, it's probably, you know, starts off harmless
with marijuana, THC, whatever. And then they move into some

(55:01):
sort of hallucinogen, right? And it seems like right now,
like you said, we're in some sort of rage about psychedelics.
Like, it's like a revolution that's happening right now.
And you can't open Facebook or Instagram and not see 32 ads for
ketamine ibogaine, you know, DMTI mean it's moving so fast.
It's so many different ways thatI, I don't, I don't even I don't

(55:23):
know how people were able to keep up with it.
That's why I was doing this series was because I wanted to
talk to the experts from each individual medicine.
And I've been pretty much interviewed everybody.
But it's like just in the duration I've done the podcast,
there has been so much new and more information coming out.
It's hitting me in the face likeand I'm like, yo, how do I get
this away? I'm like talking to my Facebook.
No more Abigail, no more please.No more plant medicine.

(55:46):
I'm done. I've already learned it.
So what's going to happen? I mean, is this going to keep
going forever? Are people just going to keep
running to hallucinogens and having these touch up jobs?
Or is there ever going to be a system put in place that will
effectively treat, heal, and actually cure these problems
that we deal with that are taking people's lives?
Whether they're still walking around or not is irrelevant, but

(56:08):
they're lost their lives. Like they're not living.
They're just here. NPCS.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's
interesting how you said that too, because when you realize
that there actually is no new information, that there never
was, that it's the same information always, you realize

(56:30):
that your mind has been creatingnew fantasies and stories
forever. It's just we're story machines,
you know, born creators. As a human being, you're born
creator. The problem is, is when you're
consuming, you can't create. And so all we do is we become a
witness to life and we let life kind of all of our mental
activity and nonsense, we let itabsorb into us and it makes us

(56:54):
stagnant and we're actually not living our purpose as a human
being. The only thing that you don't
have a choice in, and we teach tradition and being a human
being is being a creator, your creator, no matter what you do.
Choices, for instance, you know,not making a choice, sitting on
the fence is a choice. And so the paradoxes and the

(57:14):
polarities of life are very important to understand too.
There's not actually any new information.
You know, I'm not a Bible guy, but there's a biblical quote
that I really like from King Solomon that there's nothing new
under the sun. Nature is basically it means
nature is the way that it is. Nothing new is happening.
It's just more in innovative ways to make money and to get
people's attention, attentions monetized these days.

(57:37):
It's how much, how much attention can you give
something. So I always urge and implore
people to start to strip away and start to give your attention
back to self and start to tune in to what it is that you're
actually actually where you wantto go and the decisions and
choices that you want to make inyour life because every choice
is important. And so with all the new

(58:00):
information that's coming out and all the new scientific
research and all the cutting edge stuff, we're not going
anywhere new. We're going to see the world
change and shift and everything and every single generation,
every single generation is going, oh, man, the world's gone
to shit. You know, when they get to a
certain age, Oh my, you, oh man,remember the way that it used to
be. It's just crazy, you know, every

(58:21):
single generation has been like.That it's.
Always the same thing and withinthe scope of a very small human
life, there's a whole lot of things you don't have, you don't
have say you don't have choice in because they're just, they're
just the way that they are. You would have choice in is what
we pay attention to how we how we focus our energy and what we

(58:41):
create, how we create and how wecreate ourselves in our mind is
the most important thing to bring attention to what are we
allowing to go on upstairs all day long and why do we feel like
shit yeah so I. Think I was so good at it that
they had to give me brain damageto fix it.
That's how good I was. And just obsessing over
everything and that I don't know, but it's a really crazy

(59:03):
thing that I'm where I am now from where I was before because
I was probably the most conditioned, the most damage,
the most, you know, just all of the things that you could
possibly do wrong I was doing. And somehow it's now the exact
opposite where you can't even you can't even imagine being the
way you were before like it's not even a potential or not.

(59:26):
I don't even remember what that felt like or looked like.
I just know I don't want to do it ever again because I'm at
peace. I'm at peace with who I am, at
peace with myself. I'm at peace with everyone
around me because frankly, I don't really care what you're
doing because as long as you don't hurt anyone, cool.
Like it's OK. Like it's just experiences.
And my mantra for my podcast is creation is my meditation.

(59:48):
And that's what I use as as a mantra because I do believe that
we are here to create. And those of us that are
creating are creating at a rapidspeed because the rest of us are
not creating. And there's just like this
isolated handful of humans that arguably just are vibrating at a
different frequency because theychose to face themselves.
They chose to see the truth. They chose to be alive, and they

(01:00:09):
chose to stop practicing for thebig game.
Like it's going to come up like you're going to get to live your
life when you die. And really, that's what people
live like, right? They live like they're
practicing for the big game. And ultimately they're in the
6th inning into the 7th, you know, like bro, you're almost
done with the game and you don'teven know you're playing.
And it's a, it's just a, it's a crazy thing to me to see it all

(01:00:30):
happening and, and at the speed that it's happening.
Because again, what I took 20 years to learn and to master
probably could have done in 20 minutes using these products and
these, these plants and these medicines that are, you know,
out there. But there's so much information
going on people right now that it's so overwhelming.
Even knowing it and talking to the experts in the industry, I'm
still going. All right, wait a minute.

(01:00:52):
So what, $7000 for one dosage ofsomething that will heal you,
cure you, fix you, make you see yourself.
But I can teach you the same thing in meditation and save a
lot of money. So maybe I'm just cheap.
That's what it really boils downto.
So I just chose the cheapest path because the money thing is
a crazy amount of money. And that's one of those things I

(01:01:12):
would like to eliminate is, you know, I have a plan.
I have a solution to end veteransuicide.
It's written down, it's drawn out, it's a diagram.
It's very, very simple and it involves all the plant medicine
modalities and other healing methods.
But there's a lot of issues withthat, right?
Do we really want to heal the veterans?
Do we want to save their lives? Really?
Do we want an extra couple 100,000 vets running around that

(01:01:33):
are polished up in good shape and with the right mind in
America? And what if they start uniting
and what if they start coming together?
And then we have. So there's a lot of questions
that I think people are are interested to find out what's
going to happen. The government can't fix this,
this epidemic. It's really, really bad.
But at the same time, is it something that can be fixed?
And are we headed in that direction?

(01:01:53):
Because I know 22 to 44 men and women has served our country are
committing suicide every day. And that's, and no one talks
about it. It's not a thing.
Like, it's just like, Oh yeah, just disregard that fact.
And then the ones that are here are we're, we're being treated
poorly, not like Vietnam, but wedon't get the love or the

(01:02:15):
attention or the respect or the appreciation that we deserve.
So is this the solution? Is Iboga going to cure and heal
the world? Well, you know, I'll, I'll put
it to you like this, you know, when we're looking at healing in
general. And this is going to tie into
something that I've heard through this conversation that I

(01:02:35):
haven't touched on yet, which isyou see all these people going
to, you know, multiple medicine ceremonies, They're going to
ayahuasca 100 different times. They're going to and they're
going to try Bufo and they're going to do all of these things.
The difference between somebody that really wants to heal
themself, that is done and fed up with the way that they feel
about life, they're absolutely done.

(01:02:57):
They just don't don't know what to do to be able to turn over
that leaf and somebody that becomes a it's like medicine
ceremonies. Medicine communities become a
personality. They become an identity and they
become a community. We see it a lot with ayahuasca.
You know, ayahuasca becomes a tight knit community.

(01:03:18):
It becomes the people that you hang out with and it becomes,
you know, if you're not going back to to take ayahuasca, then
you miss out on your friend group.
It becomes a community thing in a lot of senses for people.
This goes for other medicines aswell, where people are going to
medicines like their food or youknow, like why are we going?
What are we doing and what's thepurpose?

(01:03:39):
If we, if we have decided in ourminds that we will never heal or
that healing never actually truly happens, that you'll be
healing the rest of your life and never quite get there, what
do you think you're going to get?
That's what you're going to get.In our tradition, we teach
people, which is very, very possible, what healing actually
is and how to get it right away,how to go for it and be ready

(01:04:04):
for it and going to get it. Now that's a, that's a level of
readiness. That's a level of readiness.
Readiness is a very, very interesting and mysterious topic
in this tradition because who's ready and how they got ready is
anybody's guess, because everybody will tell you they're

(01:04:24):
ready. So how do you know?
Well, the truth about it is, is in some cases you do.
It's quite clear. In some cases you don't.
But what really ends up happening is how willing we are
to accept life the way that it is and the way that things
happened and to be able to have the, the desire and the

(01:04:46):
knowledge that we're going to push past it no matter what,
we're going to end up on the other side.
I'm going to get there. And when it's once I'm there,
I'm staying there, that that decision making is up to every
individual. But healing becomes a carrot.
The healing journey becomes a carrot in front of a donkey
where it's like, well, let's just chip it away.

(01:05:08):
Just chip it away. Just chip it away.
And they'll tell you in the tradition, 99.9% is equal to 0,
that if you want, if you want healing, it's going to be 100%.
That means you have to decide. You have to make a decision that
you're going to heal you. Here's the trick.
Here's the here's the trick withthe decision is that people in

(01:05:28):
order to make a decision, they feel like they need to know how.
And a decision isn't like that. If you decide I'm going to go
pick up that water bottle on thetable over there, but I say,
Chris, go pick up that water bottle.
You don't know how you're going to do that.
You can't explain to me how. How do you move your arms?

(01:05:50):
How do you get up out of a chair?
How do you decide to go walk? You just do it, you choose.
But all of the coordinating components that make up that
walk, that make up, that reach out, grab, go give to me, that
whole thing is all automated. It's all just there.

(01:06:13):
It's it's, it's in us. So in order to decide to heal, a
lot of us got have to go. Well, I need to know how.
Yeah. But the truth about it is we,
yeah, we have. You have to make.
You have to make up your mind ifyou want to.
Know, I think you have to be sick of being sick, right?
I mean, that's really that's where you have to get to is the
point where you're so disgusted by the way that you live your

(01:06:36):
life that you just would do anything to get out of it and be
something different. And I know for me it was like a,
an I, it was like I said, extra lost.
So I guess I needed a couple dosages of everything.
But, you know, I was always called to what I needed.
I felt drawn to psilocybin. I felt drawn to DMT after I did

(01:06:59):
DMTI didn't feel drawn to DMT anymore.
I wasn't going back. Yoga was always my foundation.
It was always my consistent level.
And, you know, there's been all kinds of like, you know, moments
where I'll be like, I'm being called to this and then they'll
learn something new that I didn't know before.
But you know, and I've tried thewhole combo thing with like

(01:07:20):
multiple different medicines in the same.
And I don't, you know, I mean, IOK, I think that people that are
really practitioners and, and being present and being grateful
and living in truth, aligned with source, right, aligned with
self, OK, maybe we can mix them up and it might give us some
cool experiences where we're double Downing on things.
But most people can't process the amount of information that's

(01:07:43):
coming from anyone plant at all.Like I know for me it took weeks
to process 120 minute ceremony. So, and that was.
And most people are trying to use their minds to do it, which
is the issue. They're thinking their way
through, right? And and trying to piece it
through in logical, in logical ways, which a Boga medicine

(01:08:04):
tends to have a natural remedy for that.
It kind of allows us to, to justknow.
In fact, we T that's the translation is the art of
knowing. It's about it's about knowing.
It's also we T is the study of life itself.
And they'll tell you in life, ifyou want to study life, you have
to start with you, fully understand you.

(01:08:25):
And then you can study anything in the universe you want, but
you can't do it backwards. Otherwise you'll, you'll get
real confused. You have to know you.
But you know, the truth about itis, you know, the healing
journey is a real problem here. And part of the reason you're
seeing so many ads for that and so many promises and so many
things like that is because a lot of what we need to do as a

(01:08:47):
society is we need to decide what it is we need to heal from
first. We need to know, hey, I'm
miserable. Here's why I'm miserable.
Maybe you don't know why. Maybe you don't know the core of
why, but you know I'm miserable.And then the next, next part of
that, Chris, is you have to be sick of being miserable.
And a lot of people, they actually like being miserable.

(01:09:12):
And I know that sounds crazy. No, no, no, that does not sound
crazy at. All it becomes comfortable to
them because it's what they knowand if they step out of that
then they have to take responsibility and
responsibility is responsibility.
Yeah, I tell people all the timesome people will have a problem
for every solution. Yeah, that's right.

(01:09:32):
And you can talk to them all dayevery day, but they're always
going to find a problem no matter what your solution is.
So anyway, Spencer, we can obviously talk for like 2 1/2
days, but unless we want to do this as a marathon, we'll do
this in parts. Because what I'd love to do is
put it out there, all your contact info, all the stuff
that's available to them, Sarah's information and you
know, because obviously you guysare doing these ceremonies that

(01:09:54):
four at a time, right? Five at a time maybe.
And so I mean, how do we heal the Earth 5 at a time?
What's the mass method to get this out there to people?
But also let's see what people have to say.
Let's see what questions come in, let's see what kind of
stuff, and then do this again. I'd love to have this
conversation continue because certainly we can't talk about
Iboga in an hour. Like that's not a thing.

(01:10:15):
Well, I could I could talk to you for for about three years on
this topic, have me back on whenever I had.
To cut Sarah off too, I was likeSarah, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah.
We got to stop there. Like I mean, but here's what I
will say about it, OK? I've met a lot of people and
interviewed a lot of people who've done Ibogaine and I've
met a few people who are Iboga shopping and let me tell you the
difference. Iboga, the people that I know

(01:10:37):
are very consistent and consistency creates
comfortability and that's why I feel comfortable talking to
Spencer, so I feel comfortable talking to Sarah.
The Ibogaine people that I use are very inconsistent and
inconsistency causes you to be uncomfortable.
And I feel very uncomfortable around the Ibogaine people
because I feel like they got enough knowledge to be
dangerous, but they're not really where they need to be.

(01:11:00):
You know what I mean? Like they're playing with
gratitude, They're lobbying love, but they're not living in
it, they're not absorbing it. And so it's going to give
ibogaine kind of a bad image. And I kind of feel like they
brought this stuff out to kind of make up for the opioid
epidemic that they had. And hey, we got to try
something, right? Everybody's losing their minds,
but it's very different. I would, I would at least
encourage people to contact someone who is trained in Iboga

(01:11:24):
before you go to ibogaine. Obviously, Spencer's ideal if
you can get a hold of him, but good luck because I've been
trying to give him my hair for what, 3 months?
Four months? But I mean, you're the one that,
yeah, when it was time, right When the right time.
But you're the one and one person that knows the difference
because you've had them both, you experienced them in the same
methodology or order that most people probably will if they go
on to, you know, do Iboga. But I feel like there needs to

(01:11:46):
be more, more you more Sarah doing ceremonies, less Mexico
doing ibogaine injections or whatever it is pills.
And I just feel like it's it's giving it a bad name in a sense.
And I don't want to see that happen.
You know, like I know that Ibogahas got to figure it all out and
like, you know, I don't have to worry about it.
But same time, it's just crazy to watch some of these people
who claim to be spiritually awake and now they're all of a

(01:12:09):
sudden, you know, living in the present and they're grateful,
but yet they treat people like shit or they're just, you know,
bad people all together. And it's like I don't have that
ability. Like I can't honest to God turn
my back on someone I need ever. Like I just don't have that, let
alone treat people the way I watch people treat people and
then turn right around and have ceremonies with these medicines.

(01:12:31):
So help me understand what to dobecause I'd like to make sure
that we give them the proper information out.
I think we definitely got to have another episode.
Maybe we'll do a round table discussion with, you know, some
Ibogaine fanatical people and see what they have to say and
like, could be entertaining. Yeah, Yeah.
Well, Chris, I'll give you some information.
Yeah. So, so we're massively scaling

(01:12:53):
up going into 2026. So we'll have a lot more
availability for people that areinterested.
If you are interested in speaking to myself or any of our
trained providers at a Boga Rebirth, you can visit
abogarebirth.com and I'm sure Chris will put a link there for
you. If you want to have a
consultation, want to know more,feel free to reach out.
We're happy to give you some more information and see if it's

(01:13:16):
a good fit for you. And you know, you can find
different podcasts. I've been on lots of different
resources on that website, lots of FAQs, The website's very
comprehensive. And yeah, if anybody has any
questions you can reach out. Certainly want to do that.
The Iboga process to even be administered is quite the

(01:13:39):
process, we'll say I mean you guys are very thorough and not
everyone's going to qualify. So for those of you out there
who think you can walk in and pay and use this, you can't like
it's there's a whole qualifying process for those of you who are
complaining about there, this isyour plant right here.
That's the one you want to and. Ultimately, you know, our, our,
our, our goal is to make sure that we are helping people when

(01:14:04):
it's very safe to do so for them, where we can provide the
type of healing that they're after and making sure that
that's going to be a really goodfit and a really useful, safe
and effective process for them. So that screening process, it
isn't too tough, but you know, if you have any questions about
how that works, you can reach out.
Absolutely, Yeah. We'll get everybody in touch

(01:14:25):
with all your information. Make sure it's all in there for
sure Spencer man, I don't even know how to thank you bro.
It's it's been a long wait, but obviously worth it and obviously
we knew it would happen eventually We're doing this
again. We have to, right?
I'm going to get a ton of. Questions, of course, yeah.
You know, we're going to get some people that are going to
throw some other stuff at us. So let's do this again.
Let's have this hot conversationa second time to see what comes

(01:14:45):
of it. And thank you so much, man.
I really appreciate you taking time out.
Of course I know how busy you are.
I love what you're doing, brother, and I absolutely
support you 1,000,000%. I do have an app out that you
can keep track of your communityand check in on every day.
I'll give you that information. And it's not going to cost you a
thing. So that's kind of cool too.
So yeah, thank you man. Have a wonderful day today.
I appreciate you, Spencer. You, brother.
Thank you. Thanks, Chris.

(01:15:06):
Take care, man. Yeah.