May 14, 2026 • 43 mins
Think family court will give you closure, fairness, or emotional justice? Think again.
If you’re walking into divorce expecting the system to make things right, you may be setting yourself up for more frustration, confusion, and costly mistakes. Karen Covy—attorney, divorce coach, and founder of Divorce Road Map—pulls back the curtain on what the legal system actually does (and what it doesn’t), and why so many people feel blindsided by the process. This conversation will help you shift from overwhelmed and reactive to clear, strategic, and in control—so you can protect your peace, your kids, and your future.
Learn more about Karen Covy at: https://karencovy.com/
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Watch This Episode: https://youtu.be/zN6CrfOnZ9k
Takeaways
- The CEO Shift: How to take full ownership of your divorce by building a plan, setting priorities, and leading your own “team” instead of relying solely on a lawyer.
- The 90% Blindspot: Why the legal system only handles a fraction of what matters—and how to proactively manage the emotional, financial, and parenting realities it ignores.
- The Process-First Strategy: How choosing your divorce approach (mediation, litigation, collaborative) before hiring a lawyer can dramatically change your outcome.
- The Board of Directors Model: How to assemble the right mix of professionals (coach, therapist, financial expert, etc.) to save money, reduce stress, and make better decisions.
- The Boundary Blueprint: How to set and enforce clear, realistic boundaries with a high-conflict ex—without escalating the situation.
- The Reality Reset: Why expecting fairness or emotional justice from court keeps you stuck—and what mindset actually leads to peace.
Chapters
00:00 The Moment Everything Clicks: Why the Legal System Isn’t Enough
03:34 The Bottom-Up Revolution: Why Change Won’t Come from the Courts
05:58 The Costly Mistake Most People Make Before Hiring a Lawyer
06:58 Stuck in Limbo: How to Decide Whether to Divorce or Stay
07:53 The CEO of Your Divorce: Why No One Else Will Run This for You
10:17 The High-Conflict Reality Check: Stop Expecting a Peaceful Divorce
11:31 Your Divorce “Board of Directors”: Who You Actually Need on Your Team
15:20 Why Divorce Feels So Inefficient (and How to Stay Sane Anyway)
15:32 Overwhelm & Paralysis: How to Start When You Don’t Know What to Do
17:20 The Hidden Cost of Avoiding Conflict
19:12 Boundaries 101: Simple, Not Easy—and Why They Matter Now
22:01 When Your Ex Manipulates the Kids: What Actually Helps
27:00 Boundaries with an Ex: What Works (and What Doesn’t)
29:14 Communication That Doesn’t Backfire with High-Conflict Exes
31:01 Parenting Plans That Actually Hold Up in Real Life
34:20 Reducing Conflict Through Structure and Specificity
36:05 Decision Deadlocks: Who Gets the Final Say?
39:11 The Biggest Lie About Family Court
40:00 Peace Starts When You Stop Trying to Win
41:25 The Word Everyone Misunderstands in Divorce
41:56 Why Court Can’t Give You Justice
42:10 Final Advice: How to Get Through This Without Losing Yourself
What if your co-parent’s toxic messages never even reached you? Thousands of parents are already finding peace with the BestInterest Coparenting App. As a listener, you can too. Claim 40% off an annual subscription here: https://bestinterest.app/beyond
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sol, founder of the Best Interest App for
Co-Parents, and the host of thispodcast, Co-Parenting Beyond
Conflict.
I'm here to help protect yourpeace and your kids when the
person you're co-parenting withmakes all of that feel
impossible.
Joining me today is Karen Covey.
Karen is an attorney and a coachwho specializes in helping
people navigate that 90% ofdivorce that the law ignores.
(00:24):
Finances, kids, and all of theemotional fallout.
We discussed why the court can'tgive you emotional justice and
how to build that board ofdirectors for your family so you
don't have to carry the burdenalone.
You're tired of everyinteraction feeling like a trap.
Karen is here to help us allfind an exit.
Let's dive in.
Hi, Karen.
(00:44):
Welcome to the podcast.
It's so good to have you ontoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Thanks for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
So before we get into it, how is your week going?
What's what's been a big win?
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
The weather is finally sort of broke.
It's still cold, but the sun isshining.
I'll take that as a win.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
That's great.
So I understand that you wearmini hats.
You're a lawyer, mediator,author, coach.
Um, what was the moment that yourealized that the legal system
wasn't enough and you had tostep in?
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
It was a gradual awakening or a multi-phased
awakening because I started mycareer as a trial lawyer because
I couldn't think of any otherreason why anyone wanna be a
lawyer, right?
You go to an you go to court andyou try jury trials.
And so I did that for a while.
Then I went to the governmentand I ran a bureau for a while,
a bureau of a hundred lawyers.
And then I decided to hang upthe proverbial shingle.
And when I did, I said, I willtake any kind of case there is
(01:34):
except divorce.
And here we are, right?
At some point I just threw up myhands and I was like, okay, I'll
do divorce because that's whatkept coming to me.
But when I walked into divorcecourt, I had a decade of
experience behind me.
And I looked around and went,this is the stupidest thing I've
ever seen.
First of all, that branch of thecourt didn't run the same way
that the other branches of thecourt did.
(01:55):
And there's no universe in whichsitting down and ripping your
spouse's face off andcross-examination and then go
sitting with them next to themat your good soccer game tonight
makes sense.
I was like, this is stupid.
So that's when I started on thequest for the better way.
I became a mediator, I became acollaborative divorce
professional, I became anarbitrate, I became all these
(02:16):
things years later.
And I was doing all the things,but it still wasn't quite
working.
It's not a great system.
And so one day I was in myoffice and my assistant at the
time had worked for all the bigguns in Chicago, all the big
divorce firms.
It was hot, the door was open.
I had a client interview, clientleaves, her desk was outside my
door.
(02:36):
She walks into me and she says,You know no one else does that,
right?
I said, What do you mean?
And she said, You just spentover an hour sitting there with
this person telling them, here'swhat your choices are, here's
how the system works, here'swhat you you can do, A or B or C
or you know, what do you want todo?
And I said, Well, if the otherguys aren't saying that, what
are they saying?
And she said, Here's a contract,sign here.
(02:56):
And I was horrified.
Horrified because it's not mylife.
I don't get to make yourdecisions for you.
So that sent me on the journeyof coaching.
And one thing led to another.
And here we are, because what Isaw was the gap between what
people think the lawyer is goingto do and what the lawyer is
actually going to do.
I stepped into that gap becauseI speak lawyer and I speak
(03:19):
human.
So I could be the go-between.
At this stage of life, as oneperson, I am not going to change
the system.
That's a little too ambitious,even for me, but I can change
the people that go into it.
And if I change my clients,that's better than nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Oh, that's that's beautiful.
Yeah, it is a it's a challengingsystem, isn't it?
And it's great when there areprofessionals like yourself that
have gone through the all thestages, have seen what it's
like, and come full circle andrealize that they need to be the
change makers.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Yeah.
And I think the change is goingto come from the bottom up, not
the top down, because the law isslow to change.
That's the nature of the beast.
But people are starting to drivethe change and ask for more and
demand more from their lawyers.
I think that's going to be whatstarts the change.
There are a lot of alternativesout there to just going to court
(04:11):
and fighting these days.
And there's more alternativesbeing born every single day
because people are looking for abetter way.
I'm confident that at some pointsomething will catch and that
we'll be able to do this better.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Well, and I think it starts with education, right?
When we learn before takingaction, then we're able to take
better action.
And I know in my own divorce, Iwish that I had had a coach from
the very beginning that wouldhave led me through and shown me
the way rather than justimmediately going for the
attorney, which I thought I hadto do.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
Right.
That's what everybody thinks.
And that's it's a mistake on avariety of levels.
Number one, the better preparedyou are and the more knowledge
you have before you even startthis process, the better you're
going to do.
It's like anything else in life.
And then the second reason thathaving a coach or some someone
to guide you before you go tothe attorney is that the way
most people find an attorney isthey they go to their friend's
(05:03):
attorney or their neighbor tellsthem or they get a referral and
they go to the attorney, and theattorney says, I will fight for
your rights.
We can win this thing.
The mediator says, you know, wecan work this out.
And the person, you are anemotional wreck when you're in a
lawyer's office.
Most people don't deal withlawyers every single day.
So they're nervous to beginwith.
They're emotional on top of it.
And what they're hearing is,this is what I need to do.
(05:25):
But what the lawyer is saying isthis is what I do, right?
They're selling you on their wayof doing things because the
skill set it takes to be amediator is very different than
the skill set it takes to be atrial lawyer.
And most lawyers don't try to doit all.
They stay in their lane.
And so picking your processfirst, based on your own facts
(05:48):
and circumstances, and thenfinding the lawyer who
specializes in that is going togive you a better outcome than
doing it the other way around,which is unfortunately what most
people do.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
What would your advice be for someone who is
earlier on in the process andmaybe they haven't even decided
they're going to get a divorce,they're still trying to decide
what the path is going to be.
What's the first step?
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
The first step is either to find a coach.
I do what I call divorce anddecision coaching.
Because what I found was peopleget stuck in that headspace for
years.
And it's a miserable place to bebecause you're not 100%
committed to your marriagebecause that's not working.
You're not committed to adivorce because you don't know
if you want that yet.
So you're just in limbo.
You're not living.
(06:30):
A good decision coach or divorcecoach or a good therapist can
help guide you so you can figuresome things out and make some
decisions for yourself.
Or if you and your spouse areboth together in the indecision,
then you can go to somethingcalled discernment counseling,
which is limited scope therapy.
And the whole point of decisionof discernment is to help the
couple decide (06:52):
do you want to work on your marriage, do you
want to get a divorce, or do youjust want to keep on keeping on?
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I wish more people knew about discernment
counseling as an option at theend or at the renewal, perhaps,
of their marriage.
It's it can be a very helpfultool.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
I like what you said, the renewal, right?
Because I've seen people comeback from marriages that you
would think I thought were liketoast, right?
There's no coming back fromcheating or lying or various
forms of betrayal or substanceabuse.
And yet they came back, not tothe same marriage, but to their
(07:29):
marriage to the same person, butmarriage 2.0 or 3.0.
You know, sometimes it takes acouple tries.
But it's possible if you want towork on the marriage that you
have and both people arecommitted to that, then you've
got a chance.
I Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Well, so I've decided I'm gonna go get a
divorce.
I've heard you use this term onsocial being the CEO of your
divorce.
Can you tell us more about thatconcept?
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
People think that they they go to their lawyer and
they think their lawyer is goingto be the CEO of their divorce
project, right?
Um, if you want to think ofdivorce as a project or a
business or whatever, but thelawyer only does the legal part.
And for most people, unlessyou've got something really
complicated and squirrely, thelaw's about 10%.
The rest, the other 90% isfinance, it's kids, it's social
(08:16):
life, it's identity, it'spractical stuff.
Where do you live?
Do you sell the house?
When do you move?
Blah, blah, blah.
It's all the things.
What do you do?
First, second, and third.
Well, your lawyer's not going todo any of that for you.
Somebody has to do it.
And most people are juststanding there because they
don't know what to do.
They've never done this before.
So they're just like holding thebag, and things happen when they
happen, how they happen.
(08:37):
But that's not the best way torun a railroad.
What you want to do is getthrough this process if you can
with some intentionality.
Like, okay, here's where I am ina perfect world.
Here's where I want to be.
Let me make a plan that gets meto that place, right?
And if you make that plan, youmight not end up exactly where
you want to be, but you're goingto have a way better chance of
(09:00):
getting there if you if youdecide that's what you want and
make that plan than if you justsort of aimlessly wander around
and at the end of your divorce,you ended up with the
Tupperware, but you're you don'thave your kids on Christmas.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Well, and and this is a big undertaking, getting a
divorce.
And so what I'm hearing from youis have an end goal in mind, the
the ideal.
What is what happens once I getdivorced?
What is it gonna look like fiveyears from now?
And shoot for that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
Exactly.
It's like Stephen Covey, who isunfortunately no relation to me,
said in the seven habits ofhighly effective people is you
start with the end in mind.
It's the same concept.
If you know where you're going,now you have some direction to
get there.
But otherwise, you're gonna bebatted all over the place
because while you're goingthrough a divorce, you're gonna
(09:44):
be faced with making moreimportant, life-changing
decisions in a relativelyconfined period of time than you
will in any other similar timeperiod in your life.
And you're doing it while you'rean emotional wreck and your
head's all messed up.
So somebody needs to be thatCEO, which is a role that I help
my clients understand and fillbecause I can guide them to do
(10:07):
that.
Here's what's coming next.
Think about this, make sure youplan for that.
And together we plan the roadahead.
They expect their lawyer to dothat.
Their lawyer's just not gonna doit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Well, and so many people approach divorce, having
an idea in mind of what toexpect.
And then they might findthemselves down the path of
having a high conflict X orhaving some very difficult
financial decisions orwithholding.
How does this mindset play intothat situation where it's almost
(10:39):
like you're in an offensiveposition?
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
Mindset is so important, but it's about seeing
reality as much as you can.
It's hard when you're in therelationship, but to see reality
for what it is, not better thanit is, not worse than it is.
And if you have been married toa high conflict spouse for a
decade, to think that theheavens are gonna open, the
angels are gonna sing, and it'sgonna be an amicable divorce, I
(11:05):
mean, you're dreaming.
You're smoking something.
So you if if that's thepersonality you're married to,
that's the personality you'regoing to be divorced from.
You have to be prepared to go totrial if you've got that high
conflict person, because that'sthe only game they know how to
play.
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
For a divorce CEO, um, what sorts of tools can you
employ in that business ofdivorce to help you along?
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
The most important thing is putting together the
right team.
Back in the day, you got alawyer and that was it.
That's not the most effectiveway to run a divorce, just like
it's not an effective way to runa business.
If you're a solopreneur, there'sa limit.
You're the bottleneck of thebusiness.
You can't go beyond that.
If you're the only one, you ifand your lawyer is the only one
(11:51):
working on the divorce, there'sgoing to be a limit to their
knowledge about finances.
They don't understand, I mean,they understand some psychology,
but they're not a therapist.
They're not going to sit thereand listen to your problems.
They don't know how to sell yourhome.
They don't know how to get you amortgage.
Some of them, if they happen tobe a lawyer CPA, know more about
taxes, but most lawyers don't.
(12:11):
So it's all these things.
It's like a divorce lawyer hasto be the jack of all trades.
So they know a little bit abouta lot of things.
However, if you want some depthto whatever area you're talking
about, it makes more sense to goout and talk to the mortgage
lender and find out, can Irefinance?
And if I'm going to refinance ormy spouse is going to refinance,
(12:32):
what are the criteria?
What do we have to do to makethat happen?
Because it's different than whatit might say in your divorce
judgment.
When I'm thinking about the kidsand what's going to be best for
them, maybe I have a couple ofmeetings with a child
psychologist to say, for kids inthis age group, given my
children's personality,especially if your kids have
special needs or they're on thespectrum or something like that,
(12:52):
what do they need to thrive?
Is the parenting plan that I'vegot in mind really going to be
helpful for them or is it goingto set them back?
So it's all the things.
It's putting the right playersin the right seats.
Most people, when they hearthat, they're like, this is
already so expensive.
Forget it.
No, no, no, no, no.
It's actually cheaper becausesome of those professionals,
(13:15):
like a realtor, if you'reselling your house, they only
get paid if you sell the house.
The lender only gets paid if youget the mortgage.
Some of these professionals willwork with you for less money or
no money up front, and they havethe depth of experience that you
need.
So they're going to be able toget you to the end result faster
and more accurately than thelawyer will.
(13:36):
So it's about putting the rightpeople in the right seats and
then you, as the divorcingperson, managing.
That's why I say you have to bethe CEO, because you've got to
make sure that all the all theoars are rowing in the same
direction or your boats juststay stuck.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Well, and and the natural thing here is to realize
is that the lawyer is typicallythe most expensive team member
that you have.
If you can give that work off toa lower-level employee or or
someone that doesn't charge asmuch, then that allows the
lawyer to act more as a helpfultool rather than doing things
(14:13):
that they're not even qualifiedfor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
That's exactly right.
And a lot of lawyers don't wantto do them.
If the lawyer wanted to be atherapist, they would have been
a therapist.
They don't want to do that.
If you let them do what they'reactually good at, life goes so
much better.
Comparing this to the businessanalogy, because I see so many
of my clients are in business orown a business or they're
entrepreneurs.
(14:36):
And it's so frustrating becausewhen you're in business, you're
rewarded for efficiency, forbeing on time, for when there's
a deadline, it's really adeadline and you meet it and you
do all this.
That is not the way the systemworks.
And so it goes back to what wewere talking about a minute ago
and your mindset to understandthat you've got to work within
(14:57):
the constraints of the systemthat is.
If you are expecting anythingclose to efficiency, you're
gonna go crazy.
You're just gonna be sofrustrated because it's not
efficient.
I mean, just to tell you how notefficient it was, up until COVID
in the Cook County CircuitCourts in Chicago, we were still
using carbon paper, carbonpaper.
(15:18):
So it's not an efficient system.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
In these situations, in in getting a divorce, it's
natural to find yourself in thissense of paralysis.
All these decisions that need tobe made.
What is your advice to someonefeeling that way, that they're
just stuck?
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
Get help because you can't see the forest for the
trees.
And what happens is you start totry to solve every problem at
once and you start to loop inyour head.
And it's the same thing over andover.
What about this?
And what about that?
And what about this?
So what about and you've got tobreak the pattern.
It's usually easier if somebodyfrom the outside they can see
your pattern and they can helpyou break it.
(15:52):
And then you take one step at atime.
You do the smallest possiblething that you can do today.
And then tomorrow you do anotherthing.
And you tomorrow you do anotherthing.
It's like James Clear says inatomic habits.
You do habit stacking and youjust do one little thing every
day, but it's the consistencythat gets you to the end goal.
(16:13):
What's frustrating is it sucksso bad to be in divorce.
Everybody just wants to be done.
So let's do as much as we canas, you know, and get it behind
us.
The problem is that doesn'twork, right?
You can't do it all in a day.
And if you've got there'sthere's all this emotional and
psychological stuff layered ontop of what looks like it should
(16:34):
be a fairly rational processuntil you deal with that and you
work through your emotions andyour spouse works through their
emotions and your kids workthrough their emotions, all of
that's gotta happen before youcan get to the end result that
you want.
And it takes time.
We are human beings, we are notrobots, we are not AI.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah.
And and honestly, seeing so manyco-parents going through this
and also having beenpost-judgment and have those
issues still remaining.
If you don't handle, like yousaid, some of these emotional
challenges, if you don't facethem early on, if you're just
trying to avoid them, the courtsare happy to avoid emotions and
just go through the process.
(17:15):
But then you'll be end up with aco-parenting arrangement that's
just not that workable.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
That reminds me of the case that I had as a lawyer
years ago.
So these people, they want tosave money.
They they worked everything outthemselves.
They had three small children.
So I think three kids under theage of nine.
I don't remember their exactages.
They worked everything outthemselves.
They went to some schmuck lawyerwho, one lawyer, wrote up
everything.
I think the wife had the lawyer.
(17:41):
It was her lawyer.
They signed it.
They went through it.
They were in and out of theentire court system in a few
months and a couple thousanddollars.
And they were like, Ha, yay,look at us.
It was it was crap.
So this guy comes to me and Isaid, What's your visitation
schedule?
And he said, Well, I get likethis amount of time in my wife's
house while she's there.
And I'm like, Why did that makesense?
(18:02):
Who signed that?
Who told you to do that?
That's the most ridiculous thingI've ever you would never have
your kids alone, ever.
Why would you do that?
And he was like, Well, I wewanted to save money and I
didn't know.
And I thought it would.
And his wife was at that point,all the eggs were in her basket,
right?
She had everything.
He had nothing.
This poor guy had to slogthrough three years of
(18:26):
litigation, thousands andthousands and thousands of
dollars more than what it wouldhave cost him to just do it
right in the first place.
And all the grief and the angstand the stress on him and the
kids and everything else to endup where he should have started.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
So many of us listeners of this podcast find
themselves in high conflictsituations.
Oftentimes there's a dynamicthere where maybe they were a
bit or are a bit conflictavoidant, right?
And not wanting to be inconflict.
And gosh, divorce is like thepinnacle of conflict and
challenge.
So we're happy to go, nah, nah,nah, and I'm not here and not
(19:05):
listen and not pay attention.
And if we do that, then we'rejust avoiding the conflict
that's gonna end up coming toback to bite us later.
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
100%.
Look, I always worry about thepeople who aren't conflict
avoidant because they're I'mlike, okay, are you a
psychopath, right?
Why do you like fighting?
But there are some travelersthat are like that.
So I guess I don't know, it iswhat it is.
But most people don't want tolike jump into a big fight.
Why would you do that?
Especially with somebody thatsupposedly you used to love and
(19:33):
you have kids together.
Nobody wants to make a bigfight.
And it's not about loving theconflict or diving in and going,
yeah, gladiator.
It's about being able to standin your space and in your truth
and say, No, that's not okay.
I won't agree to that.
Like it doesn't have to beconflict heavy.
It could be conflict light, butthere it's about a boundary
(19:55):
setting, is really what it'sabout.
And if you've got an avoidantattachment style, then you what
you've also got problems withboundaries.
I had such boundary issues whenI was younger.
I can say from experience, youcan get over that.
The point is not to cause afight, but to stand up and say,
no, this is okay.
This is not okay.
(20:16):
And if you want to talk aboutit, let's talk about it.
And there are communicationstyles, techniques you can use,
or you can use a therapist or acoach to help you communicate
with each other, or even amediator if you're arguing about
something that's got some legalsignificance, and say, okay, no,
this is what it's gonna be, thisis what it's not gonna be, and
(20:36):
you just stand your ground.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
These things weren't necessarily modeled to us,
boundaries, and they're quitesimple once you learn about
them.
But if you don't have thatmodeling set from youth, it's
scary and challenging to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, I would say, Sal, that it's simple, but not
easy.
But it's what what the messageof hope for people who are
listening is that it's a skill.
You can learn the skill.
This is not something you'reborn with, and if you didn't get
the gene, too bad, so sad,right?
You're screwed for life.
Not at all.
(21:10):
You can learn how to do this.
That's what this is about.
And now is the time.
Once you've got that skill set,you can use it for the rest of
your life in a multitude ofsituations.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult
communication can be.
That's why I created BestInterest, the co-parenting app
that uses advanced AI technologyto automatically filter out all
negativity, promoting positivecommunication, and helping you
create a healthier environmentfor your family.
Try it now and get 10 off withcode BEONT10.
(21:43):
Link in the show notes.
And now, back to the show.
What about the listener whofinds that their ex has become a
bit of an antagonist and maybeeven is lying or manipulating,
and it's it's causing them a lotof fear about the situation?
What is Your advice for them?
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
Lying or manipulating to who?
Them or the kids?
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
Ooh, that's a great question.
Both, but let's focus on lyingand manipulating to the kids.
What do we do in that situation?
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
That's the hardest part.
It depends because the answerobviously depends on your kids
and their age.
The younger they are, the easierthey are to manipulate, the more
malleable they are.
In that situation, especially,I'd be looking for help.
I'd be looking for like a reallygood child psychologist, a
therapist.
The child needs to have a safespace.
(22:32):
And here's the thing about kidsthey love both parents.
I did a little work very brieflyin Juvenile Court.
It's a horrible place to beabused and neglect court.
Parents can do reallyunimaginable things to their
kids.
And the kid still loves them.
I don't know what it is abouthumans, but the children always
love both of their parents.
They want a relationship withboth parents.
(22:55):
And so when the parents are likethis, what you have to
understand is that when you'remaking your kid choose you're
trying to manipulate your child,it's it's hurting them.
It's twisting them.
Because if you've got bothparents that are going, no, mom
is dead, no, bad is dead, no,listen to me.
No, don't tell now the kids area total mess.
They need a safe space, theyneed somewhere where they can
(23:16):
just let stuff out and talkwith.
And that's like the best, thebest thing is some sort of
therapist for the child that canwork with them to give them that
neutral safe space and theneutral opinion to say, it's
okay if you feel this.
It's okay to say this, to helpmodel and teach them what's a
boundary, what's okay and what'snot okay.
(23:37):
So for a younger child and evenfor teenagers, they still need
that.
So if you're manipulating thechild, the best thing to do is
to get the uh a third partyinvolved.
And for the parent, if you arethe healthier parent, understand
this is so unfair.
But you'll get the bad behavior.
The bad parent gets the goodbehavior, the good parent gets
(23:58):
the bad behavior because the kidknows that you still love them.
So they can act stupidly, theycan let out their emotions, they
can do the horrible things, havethe temper, tantrum, whatever,
and you're still gonna lovethem.
But if they do that in the otherhouse, they're risking love, and
love is like oxygen.
So don't throw your other parentunder the bus.
(24:20):
Don't do the tit for tat thing.
They're saying bad things aboutme, I just say bad things about
them.
That only makes it worse.
Take the high road, get your kida therapist, and do the best you
can.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
Yeah, and what a beautiful loving gift that we
can give our kids of just beingpresent with them in their
various states and allowing themto just be how they want to be
because they're not necessarilygetting that in the other house.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yeah.
And as the kids get a little bitolder, then they start the
boundary pushing because they'retrying to figure out their own
boundaries.
Their teenagers, like, youremember that age.
I remember that age.
It was like you don't even knowwho you are.
And you just do things becauseyou do them and you want to see
how far you can get.
And so it's about like takingthe high road, not allowing your
(25:02):
child to use you like a doormat.
There is, there's a point atwhich you say, you know what,
sweetheart, that's not okay.
You cannot talk to me like that.
And I understand you'refrustrated.
I understand you're having ahard time.
Go up to your room, work it out,walk it off, do whatever you got
to do, but you will not treat methat way.
(25:22):
It's not okay.
I won't treat you that way.
It's interesting when you startto put those boundaries up, the
kid goes, Oh, okay.
At first they're mad because,like, who wouldn't want to get
away with everything you want?
I mean, come on.
But also, that provides yourchildren with safety.
Now they know what the rulesare.
They need rules, they needguardrails.
(25:44):
And so you just gave them thoseguardrails and you said very
clearly, this is okay, this isnot okay.
And the key is, of course, yougot to follow through.
If something isn't okay and yousay, okay, if you do this thing,
whatever it is, I'm gonna takeyour phone away.
And they do the thing, you gotto take the phone away and
listen to them scream and rantand rave and do whatever.
(26:06):
But it's like, whatever theconsequence is, you've got to
follow through.
It's just it's basic parenting,but it it feels so much harder
because you're the only onedoing it.
And but you know, it'sinteresting.
I was talking to a divorcedlawyer and a guy that was my
senior by a lot of years, um,back in the day, and he said he
went through a divorce and he hewould get so upset because he
(26:28):
and his wife would have a fightand the kids would always side
with the wife.
They would be like, Nope, see adad, we're gonna go stay with
mom.
And he was devastated, right?
Years go by, kids grow up, andat some point they were talking,
and he just said to them, Whydid, you know, why did you guys
always side with her?
And they looked at like totallydeadpan and said, We knew you
(26:51):
were right.
We just didn't want you tofight.
So it wasn't about right orwrong.
It wasn't about we loved youmore, we didn't.
It was just like, if we go withher, we know it's over and the
fight's done.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
So returning to that dual question that we had, we
can't talk to your ex in thatway.
You can't talk to me like that.
You can't set boundaries likethat with X, right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
No, you still can.
It doesn't sound the samethough.
You can't say, you don't talk tome that way, they'll go, oh yes,
I do, and then off you go.
Which just about settingboundaries differently, saying,
if you start to scream at me,I'm gonna hang up the phone.
And we can communicate on aco-parenting app.
Then when they start screamingat you, you hang up the phone.
It doesn't have to be, allright, I'm done.
Slam.
(27:31):
Although that's theold-fashioned phone.
That shows you how old I am.
Oh my God.
But you can say, I'm gonna hangup on you because I don't want
to be treated that way.
And then you do, and the theconsequence is just like, okay,
now we communicate differently.
And it's about understanding whoyou're dealing with.
People can be high conflict fora variety of reasons.
(27:52):
They might have a personalitydisorder, they might have a
substance abuse issue, theymight just have big anger
issues, all of those things.
What you're looking at is ahuman being in pain and they're
acting out of their pain.
And if you can start to see thehuman underneath the BS that's
coming out of them, which isvery, very hard.
(28:13):
Not saying this is an easything, then you can start
saying, okay, if I understandthem, I can now start to deal
with them better.
And then it's about putting upthose guardrails and boundaries
around yourself.
It's the communication style.
Bill Eddy was beautiful at Biff.
I don't know if you've ever methim in person, but I have.
(28:35):
And he really has a heart forpeople in pain.
And he looks at somebody with apersonality disorder as you
weren't born this way.
This happened to you in yourchildhood, and he can see the
humanity in them and deal withthem from that perspective, not
in a patronizing way.
But yet he keeps his boundaries.
It's like, so you keep yourcommunication simple, clear, to
(28:59):
the point.
You're not going to fall in lovewith this person again.
You're not going to let theminto your life and let them take
advantage of you, but you'regoing to deal with them in a
very specific way.
And that makes things as livableas possible.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
I feel like we could do an entire episode just on
this one topic of navigating ahigh conflict X.
What is some advice, additionaladvice that you might give for
navigating challengingcommunication with a high
conflict X?
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
It's finding the communication style that works
for you.
For most people, if you've got ahigh conflict desk, yeah, you
can try talking to them, butusually that doesn't work.
And the other reason thattalking doesn't work is there's
no record of it, which is whyI'm a big fan of the
co-parenting apps.
They give a memorialized record,which the high conflict person
(29:50):
knows.
So theoretically, at least,they're going to be a little
less conflictual because theyknow that what whatever they
write could potentially comeback to bite them.
But it's about making thoseguardrails and being very
specific and having a parentingagreement that is very specific.
(30:10):
For most not high conflictpeople, you could say, okay,
you'll pick the kids up, Saul,on Friday after school, or if
they're not in school at threeo'clock and you'll have them
until Monday.
But if you're in a high conflictsituation, it's going to be, no,
you are going to pick them up atthis school, at this time, in
this way, and this place, andnobody else can do it, but you,
and blah, blah, blah.
(30:30):
Everything is laid out becauseif they violate a court order,
you have a way of enforcing it.
So the more specific it is, themore enforceable it is.
And it sucks to have to keeptaking them back to court over
and over and over and overagain.
But sometimes that's the onlyway that you can enforce
(30:52):
something.
There's a lot of pieces to thispuzzle, but making sure that
you've got them all going theright direction is important.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Well, and you can see a parenting plan as a set of
boundaries that you'll be ableto enforce easily later on
because they're written.
When we're approaching ourdivorce as this managerial CEO,
we're thinking about thatbusiness plan.
We're thinking about theparenting plan.
What are some important elementsthat we should be focusing on as
(31:21):
the most important things todial in?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
The most important thing when you're making a
parenting plan in terms of time,use a calendar.
If you see the days and you markthem off, you get a year's
calendar because there's goingto be exceptions.
The problem with a high conflictperson is there's no flexibility
there.
And life isn't rigid.
Someday your kid is sick.
One day there's a school holidayor school gets closed for a snow
(31:45):
day that you hadn't planned on.
And if you've got a regularspouse, you just call them up
and you say, Hey, can you pickup the kids today?
I've got to work and they've gota snow day.
The spouse goes, Yeah, sure, noproblem.
You trade off.
High conflict, people don't dothat.
Everything has to be laid out.
If you have your holiday andyour vacation and you structure
(32:05):
it this way, all of a suddenyou've gone three weeks without
seeing your kids, and that's notwhat you had in mind, right?
So that's that's one thing.
And then think about what arethe most important things to
you?
What are the hills you're gonnadie on?
For example, maybe decisionmaking.
And maybe it's decision makingwith respect to medical or
school.
(32:25):
You don't care about religion.
You know your ex may be crazy,but they're not gonna join the
Hare Krishna's.
So you're okay with that, andyou don't care about so much
about extracurriculars, but thisis important to you.
Okay, then know that.
And since you have to pick yourbattles, make sure that that's
dialed in, that you havewhatever it is that's most
(32:46):
important in your circumstances.
A lot of people, they havethey're crazy about what's known
as a morality clause.
You can't have the kidsovernight at your house if
you've got somebody else thatyou're romantically involved
with spending the night.
And you're like, okay, fine,whatever, we'll do this.
Well, guess what?
Now you're romantically involvedwith this person for years.
(33:07):
You have kids, she has kids, youwant to go on vacation together
and see if the kids can getalong.
You can't do it because thepaper says something different.
So talk to somebody who's seenthese things play out and can
know this is what you're notseeing right now that you want
to think about.
Do you even want that clause inthere?
(33:27):
Yes or no.
What about how far away youlive?
A parenting plan might workgreat now when you're 15 minutes
away from each other.
But if you were an hour awayfrom each other, that plan
becomes unworkable.
Your kids spend their childhoodin a car.
That's not okay.
So you've got to think about thethings that are going to matter
(33:48):
and do your best to anticipatewhere things are gonna go and
then give yourself a breakbecause you're not gonna think
of everything.
The perfect parenting plan islike 70 pages.
There is nobody in the worldthat's gonna sign that puppy.
Nobody.
It's great, it could covereverything.
And guess what?
There's still gonna be somethingin there that comes up that you
didn't think about.
(34:08):
So you do the best you can.
You identify what matters themost to you and your family in
your situation, and then youmake sure that's dialed in.
And the rest, you go, well, youknow, that's life.
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
I think you alluded to this earlier, but in a
parenting plan, uh, especiallythose that are concerned about
high click conflict dynamics, isthere a way to ensure that
you're reducing transitionexchanges or shared decision
making to reduce and dial downthe conflict?
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
It depends at what level of the conflict you are.
If it's super, super, super highconflict.
I've had plenty of parents thatthe transitions happen in the
parking lot at the policestation.
May not be the greatest thingfor the kids, but then again, at
least you're not in the policestation, so that's better.
Or you do it at a neutral placeor what have you.
(34:57):
But it's about making sure thateverything is specific.
So for example, you're gonna dothe transitions in the police
station parking lot at fiveo'clock at night on a Friday.
That's when the transitionhappens.
Okay, great.
What happens if they're late?
What happens if you're late?
The things that are gonna happenroutinely, you want to make sure
because you don't want to besitting for an hour in the
(35:18):
police station parking lotwaiting for your spouse who is
purposely messing with you.
You can say, if they're morethan 15 minutes late, then you
can take the kids and go homeand they lose their time.
Or whatever rules you want tomake, you can make, but you have
to think of the like putyourself in the position and
think, okay, what can go wrong?
(35:40):
What could happen?
That somebody stuck in trafficis kind of a normal thing.
How long do you wait?
And what happens?
And what happens if a kid issick?
That happens all the time too.
How do you communicate that?
What do you do?
It's about putting thoseguardrails in.
That's a level of detail thatyou wouldn't have to do if your
spouse is flexible.
But if they're high conflict,you have to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
Are there any other high conflict proof clauses that
you would considernon-negotiable?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
What's great if you can get it?
Not a lot of people will agreeto it, is where you say, okay,
we will share decision makingabout schools.
We'll just make this up.
Okay, so mom and dad will sharedecision making about what
schools the kid kids go to atevery step of the way, like
grade school, high school,middle school, all the things.
Um, and if they but and if theycan't agree, they'll talk about
(36:28):
it.
They can mediate it.
If they can't agree at the endof the day, and a decision has
to be made, dad gets thedecision.
Or mom, mom's decision rulesunless and until they can go to
court and get a judge to say no.
The reason I picked, forexample, school, or it's the
same with medical or whatever,is that there the clock is
ticking.
You've got to enroll yourchildren by a certain date, or
(36:50):
they don't get in.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
I can see how that would potentially reduce a lot
of conflict if there was onedecision maker on each issue.
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
That's perfectly fine.
And in the uber high conflictsituations where that's just not
possible, or you've got twopeople that are triggering each
other, and so the wholesituation is high conflict.
Think about a parentingcoordinator.
I mean, it's not the bestoption.
And the a parenting coordinatoris someone that can be with you
longer than the litigation.
(37:19):
Like you agree that this personis going to be the parenting
coordinator.
And in instances where adecision has to be made within a
certain time frame and theparents can't agree, that
parenting coordinator says, thisis what you're going to do.
So they become kind of like amini judge and they say, This is
what you're going to do.
And then if one parent doesn'tlike the decision, they can then
(37:42):
go to court and appeal to thejudge and go through the whole
system.
But at least the child isn'tliving in limbo.
They're enrolled in the schoolor they got the doctor's
appointment or the medicalprocedure or the whatever.
The medical actually gets reallytough.
Obviously, if it's urgent,somebody's got to make a
decision.
But just think about it.
(38:02):
Your child fell down and broketheir arm, and they're in the
hospital, and there's thedoctor, and you've got the two
parents fighting over what's theappropriate medical treatment.
What should they do?
And the doctor's just like, youboth are crazy, but they don't
want to get sued.
And the kid can't make adecision for themselves legally.
So what do you do?
It's things like that to makesure that somebody has the
(38:24):
ability to make a decision whena decision has to be made.
And then you can fight over itlater.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Are there any situations where you would not
advocate for doing a parentingcoordinator?
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Most situations.
If people aren't super highconflict, first of all,
understand you're paying forthat parenting coordinator.
This is a third person who isnot you or your spouse making
decisions about your kids.
Who wants that?
I want that.
For most people, you don't needa parenting coordinator.
You don't want a parentingcoordinator.
But when you're that highconflict, absolutely you do.
SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
We're going to move to our lightning round now,
Karen.
Yeah, not not don't be worried.
Um, what I'm gonna do is I'mgonna read off some sentences
and you'll just fill in theblank and we'll discuss from
there, okay?
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah, this is like a roar shed.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:10):
One sec.
Okay.
The biggest lie co-parents aresold about family court is it's
fair.
Yeah, that's in keeping withwhat we've talked about so far.
Can you tell me more about that?
How is it unfair?
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
Because fair, like beauty, is in the eye of the
beholder.
What you think is fair is gonnabe very different than what I
think is fair, is different thanwhat the judge thinks is fair.
And so it's always going to feelunfair.
And let's be let's be honest.
There's nothing fair about yourmarriage falling apart.
There's nothing fair abouthaving to go through a divorce.
Like, so if you just get thatidea out of your head, you're
(39:44):
gonna have a whole lot lessangst.
If you're not expecting it to befair, then every time it happens
to be what you think is fair,you're like, woo-hoo, bonus,
versus poor me, poor me, or thissucks and I'm frustrated and
what have you.
It's just that that's the way itis.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Peace starts when parents stop trying to be right.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
You have a choice in life.
What do you want to do?
Be right or be happy?
Sometimes as humans, you justwant to win.
You want to be right.
Sometimes when you can let go ofthat and and just say, you know
what?
I don't care.
Let's just be peaceful.
When you're willing to step outof yourself and realize this is
not some of these decisions arenot life and death.
(40:23):
They feel like they are.
And when you can look back andgo, I don't need to win this.
I'd rather win the relationship.
I'd rather win the peace for mychildren than the argument with
my spouse.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
That's such a great answer.
I feel like the process ofmoving from divorce to
co-parenting is a huge processof letting go.
SPEAKER_01 (40:43):
It is.
And it's hard.
That's one of the hardest thingsI think to do is to let go
because our tendency is to clingon, but the harder you hold, the
more it's like the sand runningthrough your fingers.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
The most misunderstood word in divorce is
probably custody.
SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
People confuse custody and parenting time or
visitation all the time.
Custody is it's it's its ownthing.
Custody is either legal decisionmaking or physical custody is
who has the child in their handsright then.
Residential custody, where doesthe kid live most of the time?
But it has nothing to do withparenting time.
(41:20):
And all of that just getsmorphed into one big soup until
you don't even know what you'retalking about anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
The family court system can't give you justice.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Most people go into court looking for emotional
justice.
There is no such thing.
The court is designed to do onething and one thing only.
It is there to make a decisionfor two people who can't do it
themselves.
That's it.
And the judges, the system isset up to follow laws and follow
rules and all the things.
And sometimes those laws andrules are going to work in your
(41:49):
favor and sometimes they'regoing to work against you, but
it's never going to be airquotes fair.
It never happens.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Karen, it's been such a pleasure having you on
today.
For a listener who's listeningright now and perhaps feeling a
bit overwhelmed or deep in thetrenches of their divorce or
their co-parenting, what's oneuh piece of advice that you
could offer them?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
Take one step at a time and baby steps count.
Don't try to eat the wholeelephant in one bite.
Just little bit by little bit,one day at a time, you will get
there.
There will be a time when thisis all in your rearview mirror
and you're going, I can'tbelieve I did that.
You're not there now, but don'tgive up hope.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
I love that.
For listeners that would like toconnect with you and learn more
about your work or your books,how can they reach out to you?
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
KarenCovey.com.
It's K-A-R-E-N-C-O-V-Y.com.
There's no E in my version ofCovey.
And I'm Karen Covey everywhereon socials, but the best place
to find me is on my website.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Great, Karen.
Thanks so much for being ontoday.
It's been such a pleasure havingyou on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
You're welcome.
It's my pleasure as well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Thanks for joining us on the Co-Parenting Beyond
Conflict Podcast.
To support our show, pleasesubscribe or leave a rating.
Links for all books andresources mentioned on today's
podcast appear in our show notesor on Coparenting Beyond
Conflict.com.
See you next time.
The commentary and opinionsavailable on this podcast are
(43:13):
for informational andentertainment purposes only, and
not for the purpose of providinglegal or psychological advice.
You should contact a licensedattorney, coach, or therapist in
your state to obtain advice withrespect to any particular issue
or problem.
Hi, I'm Sol, founder of the Best Interest App for
Co-Parents, and the host of thispodcast, Co-Parenting Beyond
Conflict.
I'm here to help protect yourpeace and your kids when the
person you're co-parenting withmakes all of that feel
impossible.
Joining me today is Karen Covey.
Karen is an attorney and a coachwho specializes in helping
people navigate that 90% ofdivorce that the law ignores.
(00:24):
Finances, kids, and all of theemotional fallout.
We discussed why the court can'tgive you emotional justice and
how to build that board ofdirectors for your family so you
don't have to carry the burdenalone.
You're tired of everyinteraction feeling like a trap.
Karen is here to help us allfind an exit.
Let's dive in.
Hi, Karen.
(00:44):
Welcome to the podcast.
It's so good to have you ontoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Thanks for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:49):
So before we get into it, how is your week going?
What's what's been a big win?
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
The weather is finally sort of broke.
It's still cold, but the sun isshining.
I'll take that as a win.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
That's great.
So I understand that you wearmini hats.
You're a lawyer, mediator,author, coach.
Um, what was the moment that yourealized that the legal system
wasn't enough and you had tostep in?
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
It was a gradual awakening or a multi-phased
awakening because I started mycareer as a trial lawyer because
I couldn't think of any otherreason why anyone wanna be a
lawyer, right?
You go to an you go to court andyou try jury trials.
And so I did that for a while.
Then I went to the governmentand I ran a bureau for a while,
a bureau of a hundred lawyers.
And then I decided to hang upthe proverbial shingle.
And when I did, I said, I willtake any kind of case there is
(01:34):
except divorce.
And here we are, right?
At some point I just threw up myhands and I was like, okay, I'll
do divorce because that's whatkept coming to me.
But when I walked into divorcecourt, I had a decade of
experience behind me.
And I looked around and went,this is the stupidest thing I've
ever seen.
First of all, that branch of thecourt didn't run the same way
that the other branches of thecourt did.
(01:55):
And there's no universe in whichsitting down and ripping your
spouse's face off andcross-examination and then go
sitting with them next to themat your good soccer game tonight
makes sense.
I was like, this is stupid.
So that's when I started on thequest for the better way.
I became a mediator, I became acollaborative divorce
professional, I became anarbitrate, I became all these
(02:16):
things years later.
And I was doing all the things,but it still wasn't quite
working.
It's not a great system.
And so one day I was in myoffice and my assistant at the
time had worked for all the bigguns in Chicago, all the big
divorce firms.
It was hot, the door was open.
I had a client interview, clientleaves, her desk was outside my
door.
(02:36):
She walks into me and she says,You know no one else does that,
right?
I said, What do you mean?
And she said, You just spentover an hour sitting there with
this person telling them, here'swhat your choices are, here's
how the system works, here'swhat you you can do, A or B or C
or you know, what do you want todo?
And I said, Well, if the otherguys aren't saying that, what
are they saying?
And she said, Here's a contract,sign here.
(02:56):
And I was horrified.
Horrified because it's not mylife.
I don't get to make yourdecisions for you.
So that sent me on the journeyof coaching.
And one thing led to another.
And here we are, because what Isaw was the gap between what
people think the lawyer is goingto do and what the lawyer is
actually going to do.
I stepped into that gap becauseI speak lawyer and I speak
(03:19):
human.
So I could be the go-between.
At this stage of life, as oneperson, I am not going to change
the system.
That's a little too ambitious,even for me, but I can change
the people that go into it.
And if I change my clients,that's better than nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Oh, that's that's beautiful.
Yeah, it is a it's a challengingsystem, isn't it?
And it's great when there areprofessionals like yourself that
have gone through the all thestages, have seen what it's
like, and come full circle andrealize that they need to be the
change makers.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Yeah.
And I think the change is goingto come from the bottom up, not
the top down, because the law isslow to change.
That's the nature of the beast.
But people are starting to drivethe change and ask for more and
demand more from their lawyers.
I think that's going to be whatstarts the change.
There are a lot of alternativesout there to just going to court
(04:11):
and fighting these days.
And there's more alternativesbeing born every single day
because people are looking for abetter way.
I'm confident that at some pointsomething will catch and that
we'll be able to do this better.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Well, and I think it starts with education, right?
When we learn before takingaction, then we're able to take
better action.
And I know in my own divorce, Iwish that I had had a coach from
the very beginning that wouldhave led me through and shown me
the way rather than justimmediately going for the
attorney, which I thought I hadto do.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
Right.
That's what everybody thinks.
And that's it's a mistake on avariety of levels.
Number one, the better preparedyou are and the more knowledge
you have before you even startthis process, the better you're
going to do.
It's like anything else in life.
And then the second reason thathaving a coach or some someone
to guide you before you go tothe attorney is that the way
most people find an attorney isthey they go to their friend's
(05:03):
attorney or their neighbor tellsthem or they get a referral and
they go to the attorney, and theattorney says, I will fight for
your rights.
We can win this thing.
The mediator says, you know, wecan work this out.
And the person, you are anemotional wreck when you're in a
lawyer's office.
Most people don't deal withlawyers every single day.
So they're nervous to beginwith.
They're emotional on top of it.
And what they're hearing is,this is what I need to do.
(05:25):
But what the lawyer is saying isthis is what I do, right?
They're selling you on their wayof doing things because the
skill set it takes to be amediator is very different than
the skill set it takes to be atrial lawyer.
And most lawyers don't try to doit all.
They stay in their lane.
And so picking your processfirst, based on your own facts
(05:48):
and circumstances, and thenfinding the lawyer who
specializes in that is going togive you a better outcome than
doing it the other way around,which is unfortunately what most
people do.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
What would your advice be for someone who is
earlier on in the process andmaybe they haven't even decided
they're going to get a divorce,they're still trying to decide
what the path is going to be.
What's the first step?
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
The first step is either to find a coach.
I do what I call divorce anddecision coaching.
Because what I found was peopleget stuck in that headspace for
years.
And it's a miserable place to bebecause you're not 100%
committed to your marriagebecause that's not working.
You're not committed to adivorce because you don't know
if you want that yet.
So you're just in limbo.
You're not living.
(06:30):
A good decision coach or divorcecoach or a good therapist can
help guide you so you can figuresome things out and make some
decisions for yourself.
Or if you and your spouse areboth together in the indecision,
then you can go to somethingcalled discernment counseling,
which is limited scope therapy.
And the whole point of decisionof discernment is to help the
couple decide (06:52):
do you want to work on your marriage, do you
want to get a divorce, or do youjust want to keep on keeping on?
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I wish more people knew about discernment
counseling as an option at theend or at the renewal, perhaps,
of their marriage.
It's it can be a very helpfultool.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
I like what you said, the renewal, right?
Because I've seen people comeback from marriages that you
would think I thought were liketoast, right?
There's no coming back fromcheating or lying or various
forms of betrayal or substanceabuse.
And yet they came back, not tothe same marriage, but to their
(07:29):
marriage to the same person, butmarriage 2.0 or 3.0.
You know, sometimes it takes acouple tries.
But it's possible if you want towork on the marriage that you
have and both people arecommitted to that, then you've
got a chance.
I Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Well, so I've decided I'm gonna go get a
divorce.
I've heard you use this term onsocial being the CEO of your
divorce.
Can you tell us more about thatconcept?
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
People think that they they go to their lawyer and
they think their lawyer is goingto be the CEO of their divorce
project, right?
Um, if you want to think ofdivorce as a project or a
business or whatever, but thelawyer only does the legal part.
And for most people, unlessyou've got something really
complicated and squirrely, thelaw's about 10%.
The rest, the other 90% isfinance, it's kids, it's social
(08:16):
life, it's identity, it'spractical stuff.
Where do you live?
Do you sell the house?
When do you move?
Blah, blah, blah.
It's all the things.
What do you do?
First, second, and third.
Well, your lawyer's not going todo any of that for you.
Somebody has to do it.
And most people are juststanding there because they
don't know what to do.
They've never done this before.
So they're just like holding thebag, and things happen when they
happen, how they happen.
(08:37):
But that's not the best way torun a railroad.
What you want to do is getthrough this process if you can
with some intentionality.
Like, okay, here's where I am ina perfect world.
Here's where I want to be.
Let me make a plan that gets meto that place, right?
And if you make that plan, youmight not end up exactly where
you want to be, but you're goingto have a way better chance of
(09:00):
getting there if you if youdecide that's what you want and
make that plan than if you justsort of aimlessly wander around
and at the end of your divorce,you ended up with the
Tupperware, but you're you don'thave your kids on Christmas.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Well, and and this is a big undertaking, getting a
divorce.
And so what I'm hearing from youis have an end goal in mind, the
the ideal.
What is what happens once I getdivorced?
What is it gonna look like fiveyears from now?
And shoot for that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
Exactly.
It's like Stephen Covey, who isunfortunately no relation to me,
said in the seven habits ofhighly effective people is you
start with the end in mind.
It's the same concept.
If you know where you're going,now you have some direction to
get there.
But otherwise, you're gonna bebatted all over the place
because while you're goingthrough a divorce, you're gonna
(09:44):
be faced with making moreimportant, life-changing
decisions in a relativelyconfined period of time than you
will in any other similar timeperiod in your life.
And you're doing it while you'rean emotional wreck and your
head's all messed up.
So somebody needs to be thatCEO, which is a role that I help
my clients understand and fillbecause I can guide them to do
(10:07):
that.
Here's what's coming next.
Think about this, make sure youplan for that.
And together we plan the roadahead.
They expect their lawyer to dothat.
Their lawyer's just not gonna doit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Well, and so many people approach divorce, having
an idea in mind of what toexpect.
And then they might findthemselves down the path of
having a high conflict X orhaving some very difficult
financial decisions orwithholding.
How does this mindset play intothat situation where it's almost
(10:39):
like you're in an offensiveposition?
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
Mindset is so important, but it's about seeing
reality as much as you can.
It's hard when you're in therelationship, but to see reality
for what it is, not better thanit is, not worse than it is.
And if you have been married toa high conflict spouse for a
decade, to think that theheavens are gonna open, the
angels are gonna sing, and it'sgonna be an amicable divorce, I
(11:05):
mean, you're dreaming.
You're smoking something.
So you if if that's thepersonality you're married to,
that's the personality you'regoing to be divorced from.
You have to be prepared to go totrial if you've got that high
conflict person, because that'sthe only game they know how to
play.
SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
For a divorce CEO, um, what sorts of tools can you
employ in that business ofdivorce to help you along?
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
The most important thing is putting together the
right team.
Back in the day, you got alawyer and that was it.
That's not the most effectiveway to run a divorce, just like
it's not an effective way to runa business.
If you're a solopreneur, there'sa limit.
You're the bottleneck of thebusiness.
You can't go beyond that.
If you're the only one, you ifand your lawyer is the only one
(11:51):
working on the divorce, there'sgoing to be a limit to their
knowledge about finances.
They don't understand, I mean,they understand some psychology,
but they're not a therapist.
They're not going to sit thereand listen to your problems.
They don't know how to sell yourhome.
They don't know how to get you amortgage.
Some of them, if they happen tobe a lawyer CPA, know more about
taxes, but most lawyers don't.
(12:11):
So it's all these things.
It's like a divorce lawyer hasto be the jack of all trades.
So they know a little bit abouta lot of things.
However, if you want some depthto whatever area you're talking
about, it makes more sense to goout and talk to the mortgage
lender and find out, can Irefinance?
And if I'm going to refinance ormy spouse is going to refinance,
(12:32):
what are the criteria?
What do we have to do to makethat happen?
Because it's different than whatit might say in your divorce
judgment.
When I'm thinking about the kidsand what's going to be best for
them, maybe I have a couple ofmeetings with a child
psychologist to say, for kids inthis age group, given my
children's personality,especially if your kids have
special needs or they're on thespectrum or something like that,
(12:52):
what do they need to thrive?
Is the parenting plan that I'vegot in mind really going to be
helpful for them or is it goingto set them back?
So it's all the things.
It's putting the right playersin the right seats.
Most people, when they hearthat, they're like, this is
already so expensive.
Forget it.
No, no, no, no, no.
It's actually cheaper becausesome of those professionals,
(13:15):
like a realtor, if you'reselling your house, they only
get paid if you sell the house.
The lender only gets paid if youget the mortgage.
Some of these professionals willwork with you for less money or
no money up front, and they havethe depth of experience that you
need.
So they're going to be able toget you to the end result faster
and more accurately than thelawyer will.
(13:36):
So it's about putting the rightpeople in the right seats and
then you, as the divorcingperson, managing.
That's why I say you have to bethe CEO, because you've got to
make sure that all the all theoars are rowing in the same
direction or your boats juststay stuck.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Well, and and the natural thing here is to realize
is that the lawyer is typicallythe most expensive team member
that you have.
If you can give that work off toa lower-level employee or or
someone that doesn't charge asmuch, then that allows the
lawyer to act more as a helpfultool rather than doing things
(14:13):
that they're not even qualifiedfor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
That's exactly right.
And a lot of lawyers don't wantto do them.
If the lawyer wanted to be atherapist, they would have been
a therapist.
They don't want to do that.
If you let them do what they'reactually good at, life goes so
much better.
Comparing this to the businessanalogy, because I see so many
of my clients are in business orown a business or they're
entrepreneurs.
(14:36):
And it's so frustrating becausewhen you're in business, you're
rewarded for efficiency, forbeing on time, for when there's
a deadline, it's really adeadline and you meet it and you
do all this.
That is not the way the systemworks.
And so it goes back to what wewere talking about a minute ago
and your mindset to understandthat you've got to work within
(14:57):
the constraints of the systemthat is.
If you are expecting anythingclose to efficiency, you're
gonna go crazy.
You're just gonna be sofrustrated because it's not
efficient.
I mean, just to tell you how notefficient it was, up until COVID
in the Cook County CircuitCourts in Chicago, we were still
using carbon paper, carbonpaper.
(15:18):
So it's not an efficient system.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
In these situations, in in getting a divorce, it's
natural to find yourself in thissense of paralysis.
All these decisions that need tobe made.
What is your advice to someonefeeling that way, that they're
just stuck?
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
Get help because you can't see the forest for the
trees.
And what happens is you start totry to solve every problem at
once and you start to loop inyour head.
And it's the same thing over andover.
What about this?
And what about that?
And what about this?
So what about and you've got tobreak the pattern.
It's usually easier if somebodyfrom the outside they can see
your pattern and they can helpyou break it.
(15:52):
And then you take one step at atime.
You do the smallest possiblething that you can do today.
And then tomorrow you do anotherthing.
And you tomorrow you do anotherthing.
It's like James Clear says inatomic habits.
You do habit stacking and youjust do one little thing every
day, but it's the consistencythat gets you to the end goal.
(16:13):
What's frustrating is it sucksso bad to be in divorce.
Everybody just wants to be done.
So let's do as much as we canas, you know, and get it behind
us.
The problem is that doesn'twork, right?
You can't do it all in a day.
And if you've got there'sthere's all this emotional and
psychological stuff layered ontop of what looks like it should
(16:34):
be a fairly rational processuntil you deal with that and you
work through your emotions andyour spouse works through their
emotions and your kids workthrough their emotions, all of
that's gotta happen before youcan get to the end result that
you want.
And it takes time.
We are human beings, we are notrobots, we are not AI.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah.
And and honestly, seeing so manyco-parents going through this
and also having beenpost-judgment and have those
issues still remaining.
If you don't handle, like yousaid, some of these emotional
challenges, if you don't facethem early on, if you're just
trying to avoid them, the courtsare happy to avoid emotions and
just go through the process.
(17:15):
But then you'll be end up with aco-parenting arrangement that's
just not that workable.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
That reminds me of the case that I had as a lawyer
years ago.
So these people, they want tosave money.
They they worked everything outthemselves.
They had three small children.
So I think three kids under theage of nine.
I don't remember their exactages.
They worked everything outthemselves.
They went to some schmuck lawyerwho, one lawyer, wrote up
everything.
I think the wife had the lawyer.
(17:41):
It was her lawyer.
They signed it.
They went through it.
They were in and out of theentire court system in a few
months and a couple thousanddollars.
And they were like, Ha, yay,look at us.
It was it was crap.
So this guy comes to me and Isaid, What's your visitation
schedule?
And he said, Well, I get likethis amount of time in my wife's
house while she's there.
And I'm like, Why did that makesense?
(18:02):
Who signed that?
Who told you to do that?
That's the most ridiculous thingI've ever you would never have
your kids alone, ever.
Why would you do that?
And he was like, Well, I wewanted to save money and I
didn't know.
And I thought it would.
And his wife was at that point,all the eggs were in her basket,
right?
She had everything.
He had nothing.
This poor guy had to slogthrough three years of
(18:26):
litigation, thousands andthousands and thousands of
dollars more than what it wouldhave cost him to just do it
right in the first place.
And all the grief and the angstand the stress on him and the
kids and everything else to endup where he should have started.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
So many of us listeners of this podcast find
themselves in high conflictsituations.
Oftentimes there's a dynamicthere where maybe they were a
bit or are a bit conflictavoidant, right?
And not wanting to be inconflict.
And gosh, divorce is like thepinnacle of conflict and
challenge.
So we're happy to go, nah, nah,nah, and I'm not here and not
(19:05):
listen and not pay attention.
And if we do that, then we'rejust avoiding the conflict
that's gonna end up coming toback to bite us later.
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
100%.
Look, I always worry about thepeople who aren't conflict
avoidant because they're I'mlike, okay, are you a
psychopath, right?
Why do you like fighting?
But there are some travelersthat are like that.
So I guess I don't know, it iswhat it is.
But most people don't want tolike jump into a big fight.
Why would you do that?
Especially with somebody thatsupposedly you used to love and
(19:33):
you have kids together.
Nobody wants to make a bigfight.
And it's not about loving theconflict or diving in and going,
yeah, gladiator.
It's about being able to standin your space and in your truth
and say, No, that's not okay.
I won't agree to that.
Like it doesn't have to beconflict heavy.
It could be conflict light, butthere it's about a boundary
(19:55):
setting, is really what it'sabout.
And if you've got an avoidantattachment style, then you what
you've also got problems withboundaries.
I had such boundary issues whenI was younger.
I can say from experience, youcan get over that.
The point is not to cause afight, but to stand up and say,
no, this is okay.
This is not okay.
(20:16):
And if you want to talk aboutit, let's talk about it.
And there are communicationstyles, techniques you can use,
or you can use a therapist or acoach to help you communicate
with each other, or even amediator if you're arguing about
something that's got some legalsignificance, and say, okay, no,
this is what it's gonna be, thisis what it's not gonna be, and
(20:36):
you just stand your ground.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
These things weren't necessarily modeled to us,
boundaries, and they're quitesimple once you learn about
them.
But if you don't have thatmodeling set from youth, it's
scary and challenging to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, I would say, Sal, that it's simple, but not
easy.
But it's what what the messageof hope for people who are
listening is that it's a skill.
You can learn the skill.
This is not something you'reborn with, and if you didn't get
the gene, too bad, so sad,right?
You're screwed for life.
Not at all.
(21:10):
You can learn how to do this.
That's what this is about.
And now is the time.
Once you've got that skill set,you can use it for the rest of
your life in a multitude ofsituations.
SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult
communication can be.
That's why I created BestInterest, the co-parenting app
that uses advanced AI technologyto automatically filter out all
negativity, promoting positivecommunication, and helping you
create a healthier environmentfor your family.
Try it now and get 10 off withcode BEONT10.
(21:43):
Link in the show notes.
And now, back to the show.
What about the listener whofinds that their ex has become a
bit of an antagonist and maybeeven is lying or manipulating,
and it's it's causing them a lotof fear about the situation?
What is Your advice for them?
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
Lying or manipulating to who?
Them or the kids?
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
Ooh, that's a great question.
Both, but let's focus on lyingand manipulating to the kids.
What do we do in that situation?
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
That's the hardest part.
It depends because the answerobviously depends on your kids
and their age.
The younger they are, the easierthey are to manipulate, the more
malleable they are.
In that situation, especially,I'd be looking for help.
I'd be looking for like a reallygood child psychologist, a
therapist.
The child needs to have a safespace.
(22:32):
And here's the thing about kidsthey love both parents.
I did a little work very brieflyin Juvenile Court.
It's a horrible place to beabused and neglect court.
Parents can do reallyunimaginable things to their
kids.
And the kid still loves them.
I don't know what it is abouthumans, but the children always
love both of their parents.
They want a relationship withboth parents.
(22:55):
And so when the parents are likethis, what you have to
understand is that when you'remaking your kid choose you're
trying to manipulate your child,it's it's hurting them.
It's twisting them.
Because if you've got bothparents that are going, no, mom
is dead, no, bad is dead, no,listen to me.
No, don't tell now the kids area total mess.
They need a safe space, theyneed somewhere where they can
(23:16):
just let stuff out and talkwith.
And that's like the best, thebest thing is some sort of
therapist for the child that canwork with them to give them that
neutral safe space and theneutral opinion to say, it's
okay if you feel this.
It's okay to say this, to helpmodel and teach them what's a
boundary, what's okay and what'snot okay.
(23:37):
So for a younger child and evenfor teenagers, they still need
that.
So if you're manipulating thechild, the best thing to do is
to get the uh a third partyinvolved.
And for the parent, if you arethe healthier parent, understand
this is so unfair.
But you'll get the bad behavior.
The bad parent gets the goodbehavior, the good parent gets
(23:58):
the bad behavior because the kidknows that you still love them.
So they can act stupidly, theycan let out their emotions, they
can do the horrible things, havethe temper, tantrum, whatever,
and you're still gonna lovethem.
But if they do that in the otherhouse, they're risking love, and
love is like oxygen.
So don't throw your other parentunder the bus.
(24:20):
Don't do the tit for tat thing.
They're saying bad things aboutme, I just say bad things about
them.
That only makes it worse.
Take the high road, get your kida therapist, and do the best you
can.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
Yeah, and what a beautiful loving gift that we
can give our kids of just beingpresent with them in their
various states and allowing themto just be how they want to be
because they're not necessarilygetting that in the other house.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
Yeah.
And as the kids get a little bitolder, then they start the
boundary pushing because they'retrying to figure out their own
boundaries.
Their teenagers, like, youremember that age.
I remember that age.
It was like you don't even knowwho you are.
And you just do things becauseyou do them and you want to see
how far you can get.
And so it's about like takingthe high road, not allowing your
(25:02):
child to use you like a doormat.
There is, there's a point atwhich you say, you know what,
sweetheart, that's not okay.
You cannot talk to me like that.
And I understand you'refrustrated.
I understand you're having ahard time.
Go up to your room, work it out,walk it off, do whatever you got
to do, but you will not treat methat way.
(25:22):
It's not okay.
I won't treat you that way.
It's interesting when you startto put those boundaries up, the
kid goes, Oh, okay.
At first they're mad because,like, who wouldn't want to get
away with everything you want?
I mean, come on.
But also, that provides yourchildren with safety.
Now they know what the rulesare.
They need rules, they needguardrails.
(25:44):
And so you just gave them thoseguardrails and you said very
clearly, this is okay, this isnot okay.
And the key is, of course, yougot to follow through.
If something isn't okay and yousay, okay, if you do this thing,
whatever it is, I'm gonna takeyour phone away.
And they do the thing, you gotto take the phone away and
listen to them scream and rantand rave and do whatever.
(26:06):
But it's like, whatever theconsequence is, you've got to
follow through.
It's just it's basic parenting,but it it feels so much harder
because you're the only onedoing it.
And but you know, it'sinteresting.
I was talking to a divorcedlawyer and a guy that was my
senior by a lot of years, um,back in the day, and he said he
went through a divorce and he hewould get so upset because he
(26:28):
and his wife would have a fightand the kids would always side
with the wife.
They would be like, Nope, see adad, we're gonna go stay with
mom.
And he was devastated, right?
Years go by, kids grow up, andat some point they were talking,
and he just said to them, Whydid, you know, why did you guys
always side with her?
And they looked at like totallydeadpan and said, We knew you
(26:51):
were right.
We just didn't want you tofight.
So it wasn't about right orwrong.
It wasn't about we loved youmore, we didn't.
It was just like, if we go withher, we know it's over and the
fight's done.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
So returning to that dual question that we had, we
can't talk to your ex in thatway.
You can't talk to me like that.
You can't set boundaries likethat with X, right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
No, you still can.
It doesn't sound the samethough.
You can't say, you don't talk tome that way, they'll go, oh yes,
I do, and then off you go.
Which just about settingboundaries differently, saying,
if you start to scream at me,I'm gonna hang up the phone.
And we can communicate on aco-parenting app.
Then when they start screamingat you, you hang up the phone.
It doesn't have to be, allright, I'm done.
Slam.
(27:31):
Although that's theold-fashioned phone.
That shows you how old I am.
Oh my God.
But you can say, I'm gonna hangup on you because I don't want
to be treated that way.
And then you do, and the theconsequence is just like, okay,
now we communicate differently.
And it's about understanding whoyou're dealing with.
People can be high conflict fora variety of reasons.
(27:52):
They might have a personalitydisorder, they might have a
substance abuse issue, theymight just have big anger
issues, all of those things.
What you're looking at is ahuman being in pain and they're
acting out of their pain.
And if you can start to see thehuman underneath the BS that's
coming out of them, which isvery, very hard.
(28:13):
Not saying this is an easything, then you can start
saying, okay, if I understandthem, I can now start to deal
with them better.
And then it's about putting upthose guardrails and boundaries
around yourself.
It's the communication style.
Bill Eddy was beautiful at Biff.
I don't know if you've ever methim in person, but I have.
(28:35):
And he really has a heart forpeople in pain.
And he looks at somebody with apersonality disorder as you
weren't born this way.
This happened to you in yourchildhood, and he can see the
humanity in them and deal withthem from that perspective, not
in a patronizing way.
But yet he keeps his boundaries.
It's like, so you keep yourcommunication simple, clear, to
(28:59):
the point.
You're not going to fall in lovewith this person again.
You're not going to let theminto your life and let them take
advantage of you, but you'regoing to deal with them in a
very specific way.
And that makes things as livableas possible.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
I feel like we could do an entire episode just on
this one topic of navigating ahigh conflict X.
What is some advice, additionaladvice that you might give for
navigating challengingcommunication with a high
conflict X?
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
It's finding the communication style that works
for you.
For most people, if you've got ahigh conflict desk, yeah, you
can try talking to them, butusually that doesn't work.
And the other reason thattalking doesn't work is there's
no record of it, which is whyI'm a big fan of the
co-parenting apps.
They give a memorialized record,which the high conflict person
(29:50):
knows.
So theoretically, at least,they're going to be a little
less conflictual because theyknow that what whatever they
write could potentially comeback to bite them.
But it's about making thoseguardrails and being very
specific and having a parentingagreement that is very specific.
(30:10):
For most not high conflictpeople, you could say, okay,
you'll pick the kids up, Saul,on Friday after school, or if
they're not in school at threeo'clock and you'll have them
until Monday.
But if you're in a high conflictsituation, it's going to be, no,
you are going to pick them up atthis school, at this time, in
this way, and this place, andnobody else can do it, but you,
and blah, blah, blah.
(30:30):
Everything is laid out becauseif they violate a court order,
you have a way of enforcing it.
So the more specific it is, themore enforceable it is.
And it sucks to have to keeptaking them back to court over
and over and over and overagain.
But sometimes that's the onlyway that you can enforce
(30:52):
something.
There's a lot of pieces to thispuzzle, but making sure that
you've got them all going theright direction is important.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Well, and you can see a parenting plan as a set of
boundaries that you'll be ableto enforce easily later on
because they're written.
When we're approaching ourdivorce as this managerial CEO,
we're thinking about thatbusiness plan.
We're thinking about theparenting plan.
What are some important elementsthat we should be focusing on as
(31:21):
the most important things todial in?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
The most important thing when you're making a
parenting plan in terms of time,use a calendar.
If you see the days and you markthem off, you get a year's
calendar because there's goingto be exceptions.
The problem with a high conflictperson is there's no flexibility
there.
And life isn't rigid.
Someday your kid is sick.
One day there's a school holidayor school gets closed for a snow
(31:45):
day that you hadn't planned on.
And if you've got a regularspouse, you just call them up
and you say, Hey, can you pickup the kids today?
I've got to work and they've gota snow day.
The spouse goes, Yeah, sure, noproblem.
You trade off.
High conflict, people don't dothat.
Everything has to be laid out.
If you have your holiday andyour vacation and you structure
(32:05):
it this way, all of a suddenyou've gone three weeks without
seeing your kids, and that's notwhat you had in mind, right?
So that's that's one thing.
And then think about what arethe most important things to
you?
What are the hills you're gonnadie on?
For example, maybe decisionmaking.
And maybe it's decision makingwith respect to medical or
school.
(32:25):
You don't care about religion.
You know your ex may be crazy,but they're not gonna join the
Hare Krishna's.
So you're okay with that, andyou don't care about so much
about extracurriculars, but thisis important to you.
Okay, then know that.
And since you have to pick yourbattles, make sure that that's
dialed in, that you havewhatever it is that's most
(32:46):
important in your circumstances.
A lot of people, they havethey're crazy about what's known
as a morality clause.
You can't have the kidsovernight at your house if
you've got somebody else thatyou're romantically involved
with spending the night.
And you're like, okay, fine,whatever, we'll do this.
Well, guess what?
Now you're romantically involvedwith this person for years.
(33:07):
You have kids, she has kids, youwant to go on vacation together
and see if the kids can getalong.
You can't do it because thepaper says something different.
So talk to somebody who's seenthese things play out and can
know this is what you're notseeing right now that you want
to think about.
Do you even want that clause inthere?
(33:27):
Yes or no.
What about how far away youlive?
A parenting plan might workgreat now when you're 15 minutes
away from each other.
But if you were an hour awayfrom each other, that plan
becomes unworkable.
Your kids spend their childhoodin a car.
That's not okay.
So you've got to think about thethings that are going to matter
(33:48):
and do your best to anticipatewhere things are gonna go and
then give yourself a breakbecause you're not gonna think
of everything.
The perfect parenting plan islike 70 pages.
There is nobody in the worldthat's gonna sign that puppy.
Nobody.
It's great, it could covereverything.
And guess what?
There's still gonna be somethingin there that comes up that you
didn't think about.
(34:08):
So you do the best you can.
You identify what matters themost to you and your family in
your situation, and then youmake sure that's dialed in.
And the rest, you go, well, youknow, that's life.
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
I think you alluded to this earlier, but in a
parenting plan, uh, especiallythose that are concerned about
high click conflict dynamics, isthere a way to ensure that
you're reducing transitionexchanges or shared decision
making to reduce and dial downthe conflict?
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
It depends at what level of the conflict you are.
If it's super, super, super highconflict.
I've had plenty of parents thatthe transitions happen in the
parking lot at the policestation.
May not be the greatest thingfor the kids, but then again, at
least you're not in the policestation, so that's better.
Or you do it at a neutral placeor what have you.
(34:57):
But it's about making sure thateverything is specific.
So for example, you're gonna dothe transitions in the police
station parking lot at fiveo'clock at night on a Friday.
That's when the transitionhappens.
Okay, great.
What happens if they're late?
What happens if you're late?
The things that are gonna happenroutinely, you want to make sure
because you don't want to besitting for an hour in the
(35:18):
police station parking lotwaiting for your spouse who is
purposely messing with you.
You can say, if they're morethan 15 minutes late, then you
can take the kids and go homeand they lose their time.
Or whatever rules you want tomake, you can make, but you have
to think of the like putyourself in the position and
think, okay, what can go wrong?
(35:40):
What could happen?
That somebody stuck in trafficis kind of a normal thing.
How long do you wait?
And what happens?
And what happens if a kid issick?
That happens all the time too.
How do you communicate that?
What do you do?
It's about putting thoseguardrails in.
That's a level of detail thatyou wouldn't have to do if your
spouse is flexible.
But if they're high conflict,you have to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
Are there any other high conflict proof clauses that
you would considernon-negotiable?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
What's great if you can get it?
Not a lot of people will agreeto it, is where you say, okay,
we will share decision makingabout schools.
We'll just make this up.
Okay, so mom and dad will sharedecision making about what
schools the kid kids go to atevery step of the way, like
grade school, high school,middle school, all the things.
Um, and if they but and if theycan't agree, they'll talk about
(36:28):
it.
They can mediate it.
If they can't agree at the endof the day, and a decision has
to be made, dad gets thedecision.
Or mom, mom's decision rulesunless and until they can go to
court and get a judge to say no.
The reason I picked, forexample, school, or it's the
same with medical or whatever,is that there the clock is
ticking.
You've got to enroll yourchildren by a certain date, or
(36:50):
they don't get in.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
I can see how that would potentially reduce a lot
of conflict if there was onedecision maker on each issue.
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
That's perfectly fine.
And in the uber high conflictsituations where that's just not
possible, or you've got twopeople that are triggering each
other, and so the wholesituation is high conflict.
Think about a parentingcoordinator.
I mean, it's not the bestoption.
And the a parenting coordinatoris someone that can be with you
longer than the litigation.
(37:19):
Like you agree that this personis going to be the parenting
coordinator.
And in instances where adecision has to be made within a
certain time frame and theparents can't agree, that
parenting coordinator says, thisis what you're going to do.
So they become kind of like amini judge and they say, This is
what you're going to do.
And then if one parent doesn'tlike the decision, they can then
(37:42):
go to court and appeal to thejudge and go through the whole
system.
But at least the child isn'tliving in limbo.
They're enrolled in the schoolor they got the doctor's
appointment or the medicalprocedure or the whatever.
The medical actually gets reallytough.
Obviously, if it's urgent,somebody's got to make a
decision.
But just think about it.
(38:02):
Your child fell down and broketheir arm, and they're in the
hospital, and there's thedoctor, and you've got the two
parents fighting over what's theappropriate medical treatment.
What should they do?
And the doctor's just like, youboth are crazy, but they don't
want to get sued.
And the kid can't make adecision for themselves legally.
So what do you do?
It's things like that to makesure that somebody has the
(38:24):
ability to make a decision whena decision has to be made.
And then you can fight over itlater.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Are there any situations where you would not
advocate for doing a parentingcoordinator?
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
Most situations.
If people aren't super highconflict, first of all,
understand you're paying forthat parenting coordinator.
This is a third person who isnot you or your spouse making
decisions about your kids.
Who wants that?
I want that.
For most people, you don't needa parenting coordinator.
You don't want a parentingcoordinator.
But when you're that highconflict, absolutely you do.
SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
We're going to move to our lightning round now,
Karen.
Yeah, not not don't be worried.
Um, what I'm gonna do is I'mgonna read off some sentences
and you'll just fill in theblank and we'll discuss from
there, okay?
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah, this is like a roar shed.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:10):
One sec.
Okay.
The biggest lie co-parents aresold about family court is it's
fair.
Yeah, that's in keeping withwhat we've talked about so far.
Can you tell me more about that?
How is it unfair?
SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
Because fair, like beauty, is in the eye of the
beholder.
What you think is fair is gonnabe very different than what I
think is fair, is different thanwhat the judge thinks is fair.
And so it's always going to feelunfair.
And let's be let's be honest.
There's nothing fair about yourmarriage falling apart.
There's nothing fair abouthaving to go through a divorce.
Like, so if you just get thatidea out of your head, you're
(39:44):
gonna have a whole lot lessangst.
If you're not expecting it to befair, then every time it happens
to be what you think is fair,you're like, woo-hoo, bonus,
versus poor me, poor me, or thissucks and I'm frustrated and
what have you.
It's just that that's the way itis.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Peace starts when parents stop trying to be right.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
You have a choice in life.
What do you want to do?
Be right or be happy?
Sometimes as humans, you justwant to win.
You want to be right.
Sometimes when you can let go ofthat and and just say, you know
what?
I don't care.
Let's just be peaceful.
When you're willing to step outof yourself and realize this is
not some of these decisions arenot life and death.
(40:23):
They feel like they are.
And when you can look back andgo, I don't need to win this.
I'd rather win the relationship.
I'd rather win the peace for mychildren than the argument with
my spouse.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
That's such a great answer.
I feel like the process ofmoving from divorce to
co-parenting is a huge processof letting go.
SPEAKER_01 (40:43):
It is.
And it's hard.
That's one of the hardest thingsI think to do is to let go
because our tendency is to clingon, but the harder you hold, the
more it's like the sand runningthrough your fingers.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
The most misunderstood word in divorce is
probably custody.
SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
People confuse custody and parenting time or
visitation all the time.
Custody is it's it's its ownthing.
Custody is either legal decisionmaking or physical custody is
who has the child in their handsright then.
Residential custody, where doesthe kid live most of the time?
But it has nothing to do withparenting time.
(41:20):
And all of that just getsmorphed into one big soup until
you don't even know what you'retalking about anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
The family court system can't give you justice.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Most people go into court looking for emotional
justice.
There is no such thing.
The court is designed to do onething and one thing only.
It is there to make a decisionfor two people who can't do it
themselves.
That's it.
And the judges, the system isset up to follow laws and follow
rules and all the things.
And sometimes those laws andrules are going to work in your
(41:49):
favor and sometimes they'regoing to work against you, but
it's never going to be airquotes fair.
It never happens.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Karen, it's been such a pleasure having you on
today.
For a listener who's listeningright now and perhaps feeling a
bit overwhelmed or deep in thetrenches of their divorce or
their co-parenting, what's oneuh piece of advice that you
could offer them?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
Take one step at a time and baby steps count.
Don't try to eat the wholeelephant in one bite.
Just little bit by little bit,one day at a time, you will get
there.
There will be a time when thisis all in your rearview mirror
and you're going, I can'tbelieve I did that.
You're not there now, but don'tgive up hope.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
I love that.
For listeners that would like toconnect with you and learn more
about your work or your books,how can they reach out to you?
SPEAKER_01 (42:35):
KarenCovey.com.
It's K-A-R-E-N-C-O-V-Y.com.
There's no E in my version ofCovey.
And I'm Karen Covey everywhereon socials, but the best place
to find me is on my website.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Great, Karen.
Thanks so much for being ontoday.
It's been such a pleasure havingyou on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
You're welcome.
It's my pleasure as well.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Thanks for joining us on the Co-Parenting Beyond
Conflict Podcast.
To support our show, pleasesubscribe or leave a rating.
Links for all books andresources mentioned on today's
podcast appear in our show notesor on Coparenting Beyond
Conflict.com.
See you next time.
The commentary and opinionsavailable on this podcast are
(43:13):
for informational andentertainment purposes only, and
not for the purpose of providinglegal or psychological advice.
You should contact a licensedattorney, coach, or therapist in
your state to obtain advice withrespect to any particular issue
or problem.
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