January 9, 2025 • 34 mins
In this conversation, family attorney Ron Gore discusses the complexities of co-parenting and mediation, sharing insights from his experience in family law. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the role of a guardian ad litem, addressing misconceptions about co-parenting, and recognizing the power dynamics that can arise in high-conflict situations.
Ron offers practical advice for parents navigating these challenges, including the significance of communication, the potential benefits of technology, and the necessity of proper documentation in legal agreements. He also highlights the impact of co-parenting dynamics on children and provides strategies for parents to cope with stress and improve their relationships with their co-parents.
Ron Gore's Coparent Academy can be found at: https://coparentacademy.com/
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Keywords
co-parenting, mediation, family law, guardian ad litem, high conflict, parallel parenting, technology in co-parenting, parenting plans, communication, legal advice
Key Takeaways
- Co-parenting requires ongoing communication and adjustment.
- Understanding the role of a guardian ad litem is crucial.
- Children are individuals with their own needs and preferences.
- High conflict situations often require self-reflection and change.
- Parallel parenting can be a last resort in high conflict cases.
- Children's responses to co-parenting stress vary by age and gender.
- Professional support is essential for emotional well-being.
- Documentation of agreements is vital for legal protection.
- Parenting plans should be tailored to the child's needs and family dynamics.
- Focus on behaviors rather than labels when dealing with co-parents.
Sound Bites
"I think I started off a little mercenarily."
"A GAL is a guardian ad litem."
"Don't handle it on your own."
Chapters
00:00 Ron Gore's Journey into Family Law
02:41 Misconceptions in Co-Parenting
02:46 Top Advice for New Co-Parents
24:05 Understanding Co-Parenting Dynamics
26:08 Creating Effective Parenting Plans
28:55 Common Conflicts in Parenting Plans
31:09 The Importance of Communication in Co-Parenting
34:15 Outro
BestInterest Coparenting App: Find peace in coparenting, despite the circumstances. Get 10% off at https://bestinterest.app/beyond
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today on Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict, I'll be
welcoming attorney Ron Gore.
Ron is an Oklahoma familyattorney who serves as a
mediator, parenting coordinatorand a guardian ad litem.
He is dedicated to promotinggood co-parenting and reducing
unnecessary conflict in familylaw cases.
He owns the co-parentingeducation site
coparentacademycom and hosts theCo-Parent Academy podcast,
(00:22):
which is wonderful, available onallademycom, and host the
Co-Parent Academy podcast, whichis wonderful, available on all
major platforms.
Let's dive in.
Well, ron, thanks for beingwith me today.
I'm really excited to talk toyou.
You're welcome.
Good to see you again.
So first I'd love to get intounderstanding a little bit about
your own journey, about how yougot into family law and what
drew you to focus onco-parenting and mediation.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, I think I started off a little mercenarily
, you know, in a mercenaryfashion.
I was married.
I was 29 years old, I didn'thave a child yet, but I wanted
to have my own business and Iwanted a business that would be
able to have me be more valuablethe older I got, instead of
(01:03):
being run down.
The older I got able to have mebe more valuable.
The older I got, instead ofbeing run down, the older I got.
And so I thought being anattorney might be a good way to
do that.
And my sister was an attorneyand I kind of figured if she
could do it, I could do it.
So I started going to law schoolfor that and then when I
graduated, keeping in mind thatsmall business vein, criminal
and family law is a good smallbusiness combination, so I've
(01:24):
focused on it for that purposeand also it kind of has the
benefit, especially criminal law, of being like emergency septic
repair Someone maybe doesn'twant to shake your hand, but
when they need you they call youand they're ready to pay
because it's a real problem.
So as a just on my own, thatwas kind of the idea of how to
get into it.
But then over time I starteddoing JL work just because I was
(01:48):
in a small community and theyneeded that work done and it
really connected with me becauseI have my own history of
childhood family problems and soover the years it stopped being
mercenary and started becominga mission to try to help kids,
you know, wherever you can youmentioned a term, jl, so for our
listeners that don't know whatthat means, what does that stand
(02:09):
for?
A JL is a guardian ad litem, soit's an attorney who's appointed
to represent the child's bestinterests during the litigation,
and they do different things indifferent ways in different
states.
So I'm in Oklahoma and inOklahoma, for example, you could
also have a public defender whois appointed in cases of
domestic violence, and thepublic defender is not appointed
(02:29):
for the child's best interest,is appointed to express the
child's preference for how tohold the child is.
You can have a public defenderand a guardian ad litem in
Oklahoma in the same case.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Thank you.
Yeah, so in your experience,what are some of the common
misconceptions that parents haveabout legal aspects of
co-parenting post-divorce?
So it's interesting to see howpeople communicate when they
think that the magnifying glassis on them and how they start to
communicate when they think thecase is done and so they will
revert back to improperco-parenting techniques and
proper communication techniquesand stop making decisions that
are in the kids best interest.
They start focusing sometimeson getting back at each other,
one person taking advantagemaybe that person had been
bullied throughout the marriageand they had the upper hand and
(03:28):
so they decide to get a littlebit of revenge, not
understanding that that couldquickly turn around.
And then also they forget thattheir children are actual
individuals and not theirproperty, and so often they
parent them and they co-parentabout them, as if the children
will forever remain under theirthumb and never gain autonomy.
(03:48):
But as the children get older,they get increasingly more
autonomy as they get closer to18.
And so sometimes poorco-parenting decisions can come
back to bite the parents whenthe child gets old enough to
express a preference that thecourt will listen to.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Sounds to me like there's a lot of control
dynamics at play, where aco-parent's trying to control
their partner trying to controltheir children.
Do you see that coming up much?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Oh yeah, all the time .
Yeah, the power and controldynamics in a co-parenting
relationship can sometimes bevery crass, sometimes be very
subtle, but they're always there, I think.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
High-conflict co-parenting can be so
incredibly stressful, as youknow, and I'm curious, from a
legal perspective, what are thefirst steps that you'd recommend
a parent might take if theyrealize that they're in that
type of situation, that highrelationship?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So I think most co-parents who think they're in
a high conflict situation willassume that they can't do
anything to change the otherparent, and they may be right.
They may be wrong.
So the easiest way to make somesort of change is to focus on
yourself first.
So I think the most efficientthing to do is to assess your
own decision making, your owncommunication, to shake out the
(05:07):
kinks, to get rid of any garbagethat you're doing, one that may
help resolve the problem,because you may be
unintentionally triggering theother party based on the
relationship, because there's somuch woven into that tapestry
of your past relationship.
Two, once you've done that, itputs you on more firm ground to
go to the other parent and say,hey, I realized that these
(05:27):
communications weren't great andso I've done these things to
fix myself, and I'm wondering ifmaybe you can meet me halfway
and then if that doesn't work.
Third, you put yourself in agreat position to go back to the
court to acknowledge that youweren't always great at
communication and co-parenting,that you made active efforts to
improve yourself, that youreached out to improve the
(05:48):
relationship, and so now, aslast recourse, you're back at
the court.
I think too often people justwilly-nilly go to court without
giving any sort of due thoughtto their own role in the
co-parenting dynamic.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So what if we're in a situation that is really
challenging?
You've accepted what you can,you've made the changes where
you can make them, and thingsare just really conflicted and
you're not seeing any movement.
I'm sure you've heard of theterm parallel parenting and I'm
curious what are your thoughtson it?
(06:21):
Is it an effective solution insome of these cases, or is it
generally not something you'drecommend?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think sometimes it can be the only solution,
depending on the history of therelationship, especially if
there's a history of domesticviolence, especially if the
perpetrator of domestic violencehas not sought treatment and
hasn't really internalized thatchange that they needed to make.
I think in those circumstancesit's probably going to be
necessary.
(06:46):
Otherwise the goal would be tonot get to parallel parenting
because oftentimes it's notgoing to be in your kid's best
interest.
So I would do everything that Icould to improve the
relationship before going thereas a last result.
And you would never do itunilaterally.
I think you would only do itwith some court intervention and
(07:07):
acknowledgement that that'swhat's in the children's best
interest.
Because if you start to on yourown implement parallel
parenting when you've had ajoint parenting structure,
sometimes you can have parallelparenting within a joint custody
arrangement.
You can put it in there.
But let's say that you've had ajoint custody situation where
you weren't parallel parenting.
If you unilaterally start toparallel parent, then I think
(07:29):
it's going to wind up lookingbad for you and you may actually
be inadvertently giving theother parent what they need to
maybe take it to sole custody.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I see, yeah, that sounds like it could be
dangerous if they don't get thecourts involved.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, and if you have a joint custody plan in some
jurisdictions, like in Oklahomafor example, you don't have to
go back to court and have awhole series of litigations to
change the joint custody plan.
And the statutes in Oklahoma,for example, permit two parents
who are in a joint custody planto submit an amendment to the
plan.
That becomes the new order ofthe court, assuming the judge
signs off on it without havingfollowed a motion, without
having a single court hearingorder.
(08:03):
The court assuming the judgesigns off on it without having
thought in motion without havinga single court hearing?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Do you ever find that parents are able to do that
where they're in a conflictedsituation and they both agree to
something like a parallelparenting arrangement?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I can, because oftentimes people in that
predicament think that the otherperson is the problem.
And if you each think the otherperson is the problem and if
you think you can resolve theproblem by not having to deal
with them as much, then you mayboth, for your own
self-interested reason, agree tosomething that benefits you
both, sort of like alaissez-faire of co-parenting.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That makes sense.
You'd mentioned, Ron, aboutchildren.
Obviously, you work withchildren and you see the impact
that these sorts of co-parentingrelationships can have on them.
What are some signs that aco-parent dynamic is taking a
toll on the child and what coulda parent do to address this
proactively?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Well, I think that really depends on the age and
developmental stage of the child, and it also depends on the
gender.
So it is gendered in terms ofhow children will typically deal
with that kind of stress.
The research is pretty clearthat boys will tend to
externalize their big feelingsthat they can't handle, and
girls will tend to internalizewith things like anxiety and
(09:12):
depression, and the younger theyare.
So a younger boy will probablybe fairly oblivious to a
situation, while a girl who'sthe same age or a little bit
older in the same household willbe more acutely aware of the
situation.
Older in the same householdwill be more acutely aware of
the situation.
So it's important for parentsto look at each of their
(09:32):
children as unique individualswho respond separately in their
own ways and have different setsof information from which
they're operating.
But as children get older,they're going to be more acutely
aware and they're going tooverhear things.
Especially, girls are going totend to be more social.
They're going to be outside thedoor, listening, trying to
eavesdrop on conversations.
Boys are going to be on hisPlayStation or Xbox, not care as
(09:54):
much.
If you start to have an olderchild, you're going to start to
get maybe some resist-refusedynamics.
Teenage girls very often willstart to be more aggressive
towards mom if she feels likemom's being unfair.
Dad usually is going to be alittle easier on a teenage girl.
Mom's going to tend to be alittle bit more tight and
disciplinary on a teenage girl.
(10:15):
So you can very often get asituation where you're going to
get these dyadic alignmentsbetween maybe a teenage daughter
and a father against the mother.
Boys tend to be more protectiveof their mothers and tend to
get more conflict with theirfathers as they get a little bit
older.
So you can have a similar sortof dyad comprised of dad and son
against mom, although sometimesyou know it's not 100%.
(10:37):
But those are some generaltrends that I think I've seen
over the years.
Essentially for all ages andstages and genders, you're going
to wind up seeing a baselinewith your child and a deviation
from the baseline in a waythat's negative.
And then it's for you to thinkto yourself this is a child who
has behaved X.
Now they're behaving Y.
(10:58):
I'm going to assume that mychild is the same child.
There's something that hasaffected them that they're
having trouble dealing with.
So what is that externalstimulus that's causing my child
to have this reaction and Iwould start looking around for
what that is.
What's the need that's notbeing met?
And just not assume my kid'sjust being a jerk.
(11:18):
My kid has a need.
Let me assess the need andsometimes the need is that
you're exposing them toco-parenting conflict.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So an example you gave was a dyad of a father and
a daughter that ally's the otherparent who's turning the child
(11:49):
against you instead of maybe hisown behavior as the chicken's
coming home to roost.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So the first thing I would do is reach out to the
other parent and say, hey, I'mnoticing this behavior in my
house or you're noticing it atyour house.
See if it's in both places withboth parents.
If so, then you can eliminatethe idea that it's a dyad,
especially if the other parentis being open with you about
that conversation and if youhave enough trust built up that
you can trust their response.
If you start to get the ideathat it is something between
(12:16):
your relationship with you andher, then I would get into
therapy right away to have athird party who could help you
address those concerns in alevel playing field, because
there's so much of a powerimbalance in having these
conversations with our kids thatit helps to have a third party
who can be the power balancer inthe situation and your child
also sees that you care enoughto do this and eventually your
(12:40):
child may say do we have to goback to therapy?
We're okay, can we stop?
Then you can resolve it.
But I think getting angry withyour child, getting frustrated,
getting defensive, those are allthings that are just going to
reinforce the situation that hasbegun to develop.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Great Switching gears .
For a moment, I was thinkingabout technology and
communication and how technologyis playing an increasing role
in co-parenting.
I know you're familiar with theBest Interest app and I'm
curious how do you see apps likeBest Interest and other tools
assisting parents in this newmodern era?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
The Best Interest app is pretty interesting and I've
already recommended it to someof my clients because I love the
unilateral nature of it.
You don't have to have theagreement to get on board that
app and it's really protectingyou from yourself.
The incoming communications maytrigger you, but it's you
that's being triggered andyou're the one who's going to
have the response to it.
That is unhelpful and so it isshielding you in the moment from
(13:43):
this triggering communicationso that you can have time to
consider why you were triggeredby it and how maybe to get past
that with a therapist, with agood friend, with some other
advisor.
And in the meantime it allowsyou to respond to the actual
substance that matters of thecommunication, instead of what I
(14:04):
think some people do is theyfire off a quick rejoinder that
is aggressive and unhelpful, orthey just don't want to look at
it because they know it's goingto be negative and so they don't
respond and they start to betold that they're unresponsive
and it's their fault.
So I think it protects the userfrom themselves while they're
able to figure out how to notmeet it.
(14:26):
The part of that app it'samazing and I love the fact that
kind of inherent within it isyou can always use it.
It can also train you to notneed it, and any app that has
that inbuilt is, I think, a goodthing.
It's not just there to say Ialways want your money, it's I
want you to help get better andcommunicate better, which is
great.
Other co-parenting apps, whichtypically are by court orders
(14:49):
our Family Wizard, but withparents for example those apps
are great.
They have other tools that arevery helpful having that shared
calendar, having expensereimbursements, and also I'm a
parenting coordinator as well.
So to be able to just look intoour Family Wizard, for example,
as a court professional, thecommunication between the
parties, to not rely on somebodysending you an email that maybe
(15:11):
isn't exactly the same as itwas when it was sent, or trying
to put together text messagesthat came to you asynchronously
and you're not quite sure howthey went saves a lot of time
and money for everybody.
And then, additionally, theseapps are now starting to put in
these secure calling featureswhere you can have video calls
between parent and child, whereyou don't have the other parent
(15:32):
over the child's shoulder, butmaybe the parent you're
concerned about using someinappropriate language or
inappropriate manipulation isprobably going to be a little
bit more careful because theyknow that they're being recorded
and if they aren't, you haveimmediate access to show
something to the court thatthere was a problem that wasn't
you.
So there's different apps, havedifferent benefits, but I think
(15:54):
they're all helpful, even forsome healthy co-parenting
relationships.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
As a co-parent myself , I know how difficult
communication can be.
That's why I created BestInterest, the co-parenting app
that uses advanced AI technologyto automatically filter out all
negativity, promoting positivecommunication and helping you
create a healthier environmentfor your family.
Try it now and get 10% off withcode BEYOND10.
(16:20):
Link in the show notes.
And now back to the show.
You mentioned about the videocalling and the recording.
Apple recently released theability to transcribe phone
calls and, I believe, video aswell.
How does this come up inco-parenting dynamics, courting
the other parent and theirinteractions?
Do courts generally frown uponthat or are they accepting of
(16:44):
that information?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It's an interesting dynamic and it depends upon the
judge.
Some judges have had their ownpersonal experiences with being
recorded and maybe didn't likeit.
Some judges maybe recordedsomeone else and thought it
would save the day.
So you have to know the judge.
I know what their personaldynamic is just from having been
around for a while, and so ithelps to know what your judge
(17:07):
wants or doesn't want for sure,which is why an attorney can be
helpful.
But then also, let's assumethat your judge doesn't really
have a belief either way aboutwhether it's good or bad.
So what does it do to therelationship?
It can make the relationshipbetter If you're having really
poor communications.
If everyone knows that therecording is happening, I think
(17:30):
it's fair to say, hey, I'm goingto be recording these
conversations, I want to be onmy best behavior.
I hope you are too.
I'm giving you a heads up thatyou're being recorded.
That's one thing, and I thinkthat can be helpful.
If you're surreptitiouslyrecording the other party, then
you may get some goodinformation, because maybe you
don't want to destroy theevidence.
There's always the observereffect.
(17:52):
When someone knows they'rebeing observed, it destroys the
experiment.
But just know that most judges,if they receive a
surreptitiously recordedconversation, they're going to
understand that you're an actorin that situation.
You're not you, and so youreally have to be on your best
behavior, because they're goingto say you knew you were being
recorded.
They didn't know they werebeing recorded.
I'm going to have allinferences about intent and
(18:13):
whether it's good or bad againstthe person who knew it was
being recorded and give somebenefit of the doubt to the
other.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Got it, and also I'm not sure about Oklahoma, but in
some states like California it'sillegal to record without
consent.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yep, so it depends on the state you're in as well.
Oklahoma is a one-party consentstate.
Now there's also differentrules in the different states
and this is federal case law aswell regarding the ability of a
parent to record on behalf oftheir child.
So if you're not in aconversation but your child is
with the other parent, you, as alegal guardian of that child,
can, under certain circumstancesand depends on the case law and
(18:49):
all that have the ability torecord surreptitiously even
though you're not really part ofthe conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
This is bringing up some questions I have about some
of the legal complexities ofco-parenting can be really
overwhelming for parents.
What advice might you give to aparent who's feeling
overwhelmed by all the legal andemotional complexities
recording or not, ofco-parenting?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If we're talking about legal and emotional
complexities, I would say divvythem up and take them to the
proper professional.
So, if you have a legalcomplexity, don't be a Google JD
.
Don't think that you can Googleit and find out.
Don't think ChatGPT is going tobe the exact, right answer.
Chatgpt can send you to astatute, but it won't be able to
interpret it for you and itwon't be able to tell you how
(19:36):
the judge in your case is goingto be thinking about the
situation.
So, please, it's like having aGoogle MD.
This usually does not turn outwell, so let's not do that.
In terms of emotional, you needto go get support.
Emotional, you need to go getsupport.
If you're struggling, there isno harm in going to see a
therapist to talk about what'sgoing on, to get some tools, to
get some feedback.
Don't handle it on your own anddon't necessarily trust that
(20:00):
the person in your circle who'sthe most willing to talk with
you about it is willing to talkwith you about it, because they
want to tell you only helpfulthings Lots of times.
People in your circle who havegone through the situation and
so you respect their experience.
Sometimes those people are alsobitter and nasty and they're
going to tell you informationthat's going to be ultimately
unhelpful for you.
Kind of keep you stuck Rightright, and it's not necessarily
(20:24):
fair to them to put that on themand to expect them to give you
unbiased information whenthey're not unbiased.
They love you, they want what'sbest for you.
They're going to be on yourside.
It's more helpful to have aprofessional to help you through
those emotional things thansomeone else.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And it's really refreshing to hear an attorney
promote mental health, workingwith therapists in these
situations.
I applaud you for your stanceon that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I think it's critical .
There are lots of times I tellmy client I'm not your therapist
.
I probably charge more than atherapist would charge you, and
what I'm giving you is notnearly as good as what you would
get.
So please, please, please, goget a therapist.
And in fact in lots of cases Iwon't work with you unless
you're seeing a therapist,because it's not going to get us
anywhere.
I don't like to lose either, soI don't like to go into court,
(21:09):
and my client's been the jerk.
I mean that's a horribleposition for an attorney to be
in because it cuts our legs outfrom under us.
So the better I can equip myclient with good mental health
resources, the better they'regoing to be.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm sure you've been surprised by secret
communication that your clienthas sent out and then entered
the courtroom unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I was surprised just last week by something I can't
say, but it was horrific, one ofthe more horrific things I've
encountered in the last 17 years.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So, yep, I want to know, from your perspective for
listeners that are starting offon their co-parenting journey.
Speaking of the overwhelm, whatare your top three pieces of
advice that you would like toleave them with today?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Someone who's starting off co-parenting for
the first time.
Yeah, it depends on the age andthe stage of the child.
You know there is a professorfrom the University of Virginia
and his name is escaping me atthe moment, but he took Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, dr Emery,and he turned it into a
hierarchy of needs for childrenin two homes.
(22:12):
What I would say to you is Iwould try to find that hierarchy
of needs in two homes and Iwould consider it your ethical
obligation to go aboutco-parenting as if you were
looking to raise your child upthrough that pyramid to their
highest level.
And the highest level that achild can attain in two homes is
(22:34):
to just be a kid, to not be akid of divorce, to not be a kid
stuck in the middle, to not be akid who has loyalty, binds and
conflicts that they aren'tequipped to handle.
Ratchet them up and if you findthat you're the limiting factor
in how high they can ascend inthat hierarchy of needs, then to
get yourself the help you need,to fix yourself so that you're
not the obstruction to yourchild's betterment, as much as
(22:55):
possible, so long as it doesn'taffect the safety of your child.
Leave the past in the past.
If your ex cheated on you, thenmaybe you don't trust them.
Start rebuilding trust step bystep by step, little things
leading to big things over time.
If you think that you're thebetter co-parent, then I think
you have an ethical obligationto do everything in your power
(23:16):
to help the other parent be abetter co-parent.
That means giving them thespace to admit inadequacy to you
and not attack them for it.
To help them out when you thinkthey're having difficulty, in a
way that isn't going to angerthem, that isn't looking to put
them down while you're helpingthem.
It's your job to make sure thatyour child reaches adulthood
(23:38):
healthy, happy, capable ofmoving on with life and having a
good relationship with bothparents, if at all possible.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's great.
I'm curious about situationswhere there's a lot of
diagnostic terms thrown aroundnarcissism, borderline right and
I find that, speaking withco-parents that believe their
co-parent is a narcissist, theytend to be very fixed in their
beliefs about what's possible,what they should do or shouldn't
do, and you're talking in a waythat's more expansive and
(24:09):
understanding and maybe comingacross the aisle.
I'm curious what you mightadvise the client that is
talking about their co-parent inthis way.
Is this a real fear or is thissomething for them to get
through?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
A vast majority of female clients who come in say
that their husband or ex or thefather of their child was a
narcissist.
A lot of the men who come inwill say that the mother was
bipolar or borderline, and it'snot at all in keeping with the
actual statistics of thepopulation of the United States.
So it is impossible for thenumber of people who think their
(24:43):
ex was a narcissist or bipolarfor them to actually be so.
So from my perspective, it'sunhelpful to deal with those
labels, and I'll also just knowthe court when they hear you say
that they think, oh, there'sanother one.
So instead, focus on behaviorsand focus on present behaviors.
(25:04):
Even if your ex actually is anarcissist, if your narcissist
ex can learn behaviors that arehelpful for co-parenting, then
what does it matter?
Right?
So the key is to focus onbehaviors.
That's what can be changed.
If your ex is a narcissist, thatcan't be changed.
If your ex is borderline, thatcan't be changed.
So why dwell on something thatcan't be changed?
If the behaviors can improveand you can live with those
(25:25):
behaviors and you feel safe andyour children are safe, then
focus on the behaviors, and alot of it starts with you.
You have to incentivize whatyou want to get.
Whatever you subsidize, you getmore of.
So take every opportunity youcan to subsidize good behavior
by a co-parent, and they'll tendto show you better behavior
(25:45):
than they have in the past.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Going back to the co-parent who's just starting
out, oftentimes they're doingsome Google searches and they're
looking up what is a parentingplan, and maybe they're even
downloading a template, andmaybe they don't even have an
attorney yet.
I'm curious if you have anyadvice for that early co-parent
in terms of a parenting plan.
What are some provisions thatwhen they arrive at your lap,
you're like oh, he should haveincluded this and this and this.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Before I forget to say this, depending on the
jurisdiction you're in, you cango online and you can find
examples of parenting plans.
So, for example, in Oklahoma wehave our OSCNnet and you can go
online and you can find all ofthe joint custody plans or all
of the parenting plans forpeople who don't have joint
custody, and you could downloadsome of those and look through
them and see what makes sense toyou and what doesn't.
(26:32):
So you can start there if you'dlike, depending on your
jurisdiction.
Also, I think it helps to thinkabout it in terms of legal
custody and physical custody,two completely separate things.
So for legal custody, the bigdecisions tend to be education,
religion, extracurriculars,medical, dental, psychological,
those kinds of things.
If you have disagreements withyour co-parents that are major
(26:55):
disagreements on any of thosebig things, then it may be the
case that either joint custodyplan isn't for you or you may
need a joint custody plan thathas specific carve-outs for the
areas of disagreement.
When it comes to thatdecision-making, it may be the
case in your jurisdiction youhave a parenting coordinator who
could be appointed to help youwith disagreements about those
areas in which you disagreewithout having to go through all
(27:18):
the expense of going back tocourt For physical custody.
I think it's important to thinkabout the age of your children.
Week on, week off may be betterfor you because it's easier
fewer transitions, you don'thave to see your ex as much but
if you have an infant, it's notbetter for your infant, right?
So you have to think about howold is my child?
As your children get older, youmay prefer to see them every
(27:39):
day.
You may prefer to see themevery other day and have
exchange every other day.
For some reason, your kid hatesit.
And they have lots ofextracurriculars.
They've taken lots of stuff toschool.
They have like lots ofequipment for sport or for band.
They would rather havesomething like a
week-on-week-off, somethingwithout the midweek transfers.
Think about holiday schedules,vacations.
(27:59):
What do you do with three-dayweekends during the school year?
How do you align them?
Is your family, does yourfamily not celebrate Christmas?
Maybe there's a differentholiday you can change, exchange
for that.
Maybe you like to do things inthe fall and your co-parent
likes to do things in the spring.
Maybe you always take fallbreak and they always take
spring break.
So don't think it has to becookie cutter.
(28:21):
Think about your life, thethings you cherish, the things
that you want to do.
Think about the other yourco-parent things that they like
and they cherish and see if youcan both get the most out of
this plan without either one ofyou actually missing something
that you would care about.
It doesn't have to be equal.
You may get less of somethingbut more of something else that
(28:43):
makes up for it.
What?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
sorts of conflicts do you see that arise out of
parenting plans?
Are co-parents often conflictedabout schedules, or what are
some of the things that come upin?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
court, co-parents tend to settle into a schedule
that makes sense for their lives.
They'll tend to start to worktogether to trade things off
when they can, unless it's areally, really toxic
co-parenting situation.
So physical custody schedulestend to take care of themselves,
unless it started off with oneparent getting way less time,
and then you're always going tohave that.
(29:15):
Now some people like when myson was young and I was working
80 hours a week, 100 hours aweek, literally.
If I were to have been divorcedat that time, I would have just
been every other weekend and Iwould have loved it.
I would have been the bestDisneyland dad ever and that
would have been okay becausethat's what I could have handled
and I would have had a greatrelationship with my son on
those bases.
(29:36):
In terms of legal decisionmaking, extracurriculars will
come up and bite you anddepending on where you are I'm
in Oklahoma, so tumbling turnsinto gymnastics, turns into
travel, turns into thousands andthousands of dollars.
T-ball turns into Little League, turns into travel baseball.
So making sure that you're onthe same page about
extracurriculars, both in termsof interference with the other
(29:57):
person's parenting time and thenalso with the expense, that's
things that really start to comeup.
Also, making sure that there'ssome provisions that medical
care that is not an emergencywhere you don't have a choice,
is going to be done in networkand that you're going to agree
before really expensive thingsthat aren't mandatory get done.
(30:18):
So are we talking about lenses,contact lenses and glasses?
Are they both necessary?
Maybe not?
We're talking about braces whenand how are we going to do that
?
So there's lots of differentthings that can come up.
Does your child need tutoring?
If so, who we going to do that?
So there's lots of differentthings that can come up.
Does your child need tutoring?
If so, who's going to do thetutoring?
How expensive do you want thatto get?
So those are the kinds ofthings that can start those
(30:39):
pocketbook items.
As children get older, daycareis just devastating for folks.
So, talking about daycareproviders, there actually are
situations in which it's betterfor one parent to maybe work a
little bit less to receive childsupport, but you're both not
paying.
You know, $1,500 a month indaycare.
(31:00):
So just to sort of be pragmaticand be open to possibilities
that may be best for you both,even though you wouldn't have
thought of it before.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It sounds like the more important thing when you're
first mapping out that initialparenting plan is that you
perhaps work on communicationand that relationship, because
things over the course of yourco-parenting relationship will
change dramatically, especiallyif your kids are young, so it's
hard to anticipate what mightcome next.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
They're built to change.
That's why in Oklahoma, you canjust file amendments to the
Joint Custody Plan.
I think that you shouldanticipate that they're going to
change and it behooves you,especially if your kids are
young, to rebuild trust ifyou've broken it, to rebuild
those ties in the relationshipso that, when it comes time that
you're going to need something,that you're going to need to
make some changes, that youmight have a relationship with
(31:49):
your co-parent where they'rehappy to help you, instead of
looking for an opportunity togive back for something that you
did to them before.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That's really helpful .
I'm curious if there's anythingthat we didn't cover that you
would like to mention to ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Just one thing that I can think of is if you're going
to make changes, get it inwriting, get it filed with the
court.
We're going to make changes?
Get it in writing, get it filedwith the court.
Too often people have thesesort of handshake deals or they
have an email and they rely onthat for years and years and
years and then it comes back andbites them.
So some examples where someoneagreed to not pay child support
anymore, but they were going topay 100% of the extracurriculars
(32:26):
.
But then, you know, down theroad the person comes back and
says you're not paying me mychild support.
You owe me $60,000.
And that agreement that youmade doesn't hold up in court.
So just make sure that youdocument and you file updates to
your joint custody plan, if youhave one, to make sure that
(32:46):
everybody knows that they're onthe same page.
Nobody sees an opening to takeadvantage of the other person,
and just one of those goodfences makes good neighbors,
steve.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's a really good point about good documentation,
and it brings up anotherquestion in my mind about what
makes good documentation for thecourts.
What do they trust?
Do they trust to print out of atext message?
Do they really care where itcomes from?
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Let's say that you're getting together with a
co-parent.
You're getting along, and ifyou have a place where you can
file something in your courtfile I don't know how every
state operates, but print outsomething, type it up with as
much detail as you can think,sign it both of you in front of
a notary and file it with thecourt.
Nothing else has to happen withit.
(33:30):
But if you file it with thecourt, no one's going to lose it
.
It's going to be part of thecourt file.
You can always go back and saywe had an agreement and there it
is.
Having a text message isn'tgoing to do much good because I
could go online and I could fakea text message from from you,
saul, in about 10 minutes inwhich you promised to give me
everything you own.
It's so easy to fake audio.
(33:50):
It's so easy to fake videonowadays.
It's so easy to fake textmessages and emails that you
really shouldn't rely on that.
If it's important enough toreach an agreement regarding
your children and you're goingto rely on it for years it's
important enough to put down onpaper, to get it signed in front
of a notary, so no one can sayyou forged your signature and
you get it filed with the court.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
That's really good advice.
Ron, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today.
You're welcome.
It's good to see you again.
Thanks for joining us on theCo-Parenting Beyond Conflict
podcast.
To support our show, pleasesubscribe or leave a rating.
See you next time.
Today on Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict, I'll be
welcoming attorney Ron Gore.
Ron is an Oklahoma familyattorney who serves as a
mediator, parenting coordinatorand a guardian ad litem.
He is dedicated to promotinggood co-parenting and reducing
unnecessary conflict in familylaw cases.
He owns the co-parentingeducation site
coparentacademycom and hosts theCo-Parent Academy podcast,
(00:22):
which is wonderful, available onallademycom, and host the
Co-Parent Academy podcast, whichis wonderful, available on all
major platforms.
Let's dive in.
Well, ron, thanks for beingwith me today.
I'm really excited to talk toyou.
You're welcome.
Good to see you again.
So first I'd love to get intounderstanding a little bit about
your own journey, about how yougot into family law and what
drew you to focus onco-parenting and mediation.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, I think I started off a little mercenarily
, you know, in a mercenaryfashion.
I was married.
I was 29 years old, I didn'thave a child yet, but I wanted
to have my own business and Iwanted a business that would be
able to have me be more valuablethe older I got, instead of
(01:03):
being run down.
The older I got able to have mebe more valuable.
The older I got, instead ofbeing run down, the older I got.
And so I thought being anattorney might be a good way to
do that.
And my sister was an attorneyand I kind of figured if she
could do it, I could do it.
So I started going to law schoolfor that and then when I
graduated, keeping in mind thatsmall business vein, criminal
and family law is a good smallbusiness combination, so I've
(01:24):
focused on it for that purposeand also it kind of has the
benefit, especially criminal law, of being like emergency septic
repair Someone maybe doesn'twant to shake your hand, but
when they need you they call youand they're ready to pay
because it's a real problem.
So as a just on my own, thatwas kind of the idea of how to
get into it.
But then over time I starteddoing JL work just because I was
(01:48):
in a small community and theyneeded that work done and it
really connected with me becauseI have my own history of
childhood family problems and soover the years it stopped being
mercenary and started becominga mission to try to help kids,
you know, wherever you can youmentioned a term, jl, so for our
listeners that don't know whatthat means, what does that stand
(02:09):
for?
A JL is a guardian ad litem, soit's an attorney who's appointed
to represent the child's bestinterests during the litigation,
and they do different things indifferent ways in different
states.
So I'm in Oklahoma and inOklahoma, for example, you could
also have a public defender whois appointed in cases of
domestic violence, and thepublic defender is not appointed
(02:29):
for the child's best interest,is appointed to express the
child's preference for how tohold the child is.
You can have a public defenderand a guardian ad litem in
Oklahoma in the same case.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Thank you.
Yeah, so in your experience,what are some of the common
misconceptions that parents haveabout legal aspects of
co-parenting post-divorce?
So it's interesting to see howpeople communicate when they
think that the magnifying glassis on them and how they start to
communicate when they think thecase is done and so they will
revert back to improperco-parenting techniques and
proper communication techniquesand stop making decisions that
are in the kids best interest.
They start focusing sometimeson getting back at each other,
one person taking advantagemaybe that person had been
bullied throughout the marriageand they had the upper hand and
(03:28):
so they decide to get a littlebit of revenge, not
understanding that that couldquickly turn around.
And then also they forget thattheir children are actual
individuals and not theirproperty, and so often they
parent them and they co-parentabout them, as if the children
will forever remain under theirthumb and never gain autonomy.
(03:48):
But as the children get older,they get increasingly more
autonomy as they get closer to18.
And so sometimes poorco-parenting decisions can come
back to bite the parents whenthe child gets old enough to
express a preference that thecourt will listen to.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Sounds to me like there's a lot of control
dynamics at play, where aco-parent's trying to control
their partner trying to controltheir children.
Do you see that coming up much?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Oh yeah, all the time .
Yeah, the power and controldynamics in a co-parenting
relationship can sometimes bevery crass, sometimes be very
subtle, but they're always there, I think.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
High-conflict co-parenting can be so
incredibly stressful, as youknow, and I'm curious, from a
legal perspective, what are thefirst steps that you'd recommend
a parent might take if theyrealize that they're in that
type of situation, that highrelationship?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So I think most co-parents who think they're in
a high conflict situation willassume that they can't do
anything to change the otherparent, and they may be right.
They may be wrong.
So the easiest way to make somesort of change is to focus on
yourself first.
So I think the most efficientthing to do is to assess your
own decision making, your owncommunication, to shake out the
(05:07):
kinks, to get rid of any garbagethat you're doing, one that may
help resolve the problem,because you may be
unintentionally triggering theother party based on the
relationship, because there's somuch woven into that tapestry
of your past relationship.
Two, once you've done that, itputs you on more firm ground to
go to the other parent and say,hey, I realized that these
(05:27):
communications weren't great andso I've done these things to
fix myself, and I'm wondering ifmaybe you can meet me halfway
and then if that doesn't work.
Third, you put yourself in agreat position to go back to the
court to acknowledge that youweren't always great at
communication and co-parenting,that you made active efforts to
improve yourself, that youreached out to improve the
(05:48):
relationship, and so now, aslast recourse, you're back at
the court.
I think too often people justwilly-nilly go to court without
giving any sort of due thoughtto their own role in the
co-parenting dynamic.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
So what if we're in a situation that is really
challenging?
You've accepted what you can,you've made the changes where
you can make them, and thingsare just really conflicted and
you're not seeing any movement.
I'm sure you've heard of theterm parallel parenting and I'm
curious what are your thoughtson it?
(06:21):
Is it an effective solution insome of these cases, or is it
generally not something you'drecommend?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think sometimes it can be the only solution,
depending on the history of therelationship, especially if
there's a history of domesticviolence, especially if the
perpetrator of domestic violencehas not sought treatment and
hasn't really internalized thatchange that they needed to make.
I think in those circumstancesit's probably going to be
necessary.
(06:46):
Otherwise the goal would be tonot get to parallel parenting
because oftentimes it's notgoing to be in your kid's best
interest.
So I would do everything that Icould to improve the
relationship before going thereas a last result.
And you would never do itunilaterally.
I think you would only do itwith some court intervention and
(07:07):
acknowledgement that that'swhat's in the children's best
interest.
Because if you start to on yourown implement parallel
parenting when you've had ajoint parenting structure,
sometimes you can have parallelparenting within a joint custody
arrangement.
You can put it in there.
But let's say that you've had ajoint custody situation where
you weren't parallel parenting.
If you unilaterally start toparallel parent, then I think
(07:29):
it's going to wind up lookingbad for you and you may actually
be inadvertently giving theother parent what they need to
maybe take it to sole custody.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I see, yeah, that sounds like it could be
dangerous if they don't get thecourts involved.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, and if you have a joint custody plan in some
jurisdictions, like in Oklahomafor example, you don't have to
go back to court and have awhole series of litigations to
change the joint custody plan.
And the statutes in Oklahoma,for example, permit two parents
who are in a joint custody planto submit an amendment to the
plan.
That becomes the new order ofthe court, assuming the judge
signs off on it without havingfollowed a motion, without
having a single court hearingorder.
(08:03):
The court assuming the judgesigns off on it without having
thought in motion without havinga single court hearing?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Do you ever find that parents are able to do that
where they're in a conflictedsituation and they both agree to
something like a parallelparenting arrangement?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I can, because oftentimes people in that
predicament think that the otherperson is the problem.
And if you each think the otherperson is the problem and if
you think you can resolve theproblem by not having to deal
with them as much, then you mayboth, for your own
self-interested reason, agree tosomething that benefits you
both, sort of like alaissez-faire of co-parenting.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That makes sense.
You'd mentioned, Ron, aboutchildren.
Obviously, you work withchildren and you see the impact
that these sorts of co-parentingrelationships can have on them.
What are some signs that aco-parent dynamic is taking a
toll on the child and what coulda parent do to address this
proactively?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Well, I think that really depends on the age and
developmental stage of the child, and it also depends on the
gender.
So it is gendered in terms ofhow children will typically deal
with that kind of stress.
The research is pretty clearthat boys will tend to
externalize their big feelingsthat they can't handle, and
girls will tend to internalizewith things like anxiety and
(09:12):
depression, and the younger theyare.
So a younger boy will probablybe fairly oblivious to a
situation, while a girl who'sthe same age or a little bit
older in the same household willbe more acutely aware of the
situation.
Older in the same householdwill be more acutely aware of
the situation.
So it's important for parentsto look at each of their
(09:32):
children as unique individualswho respond separately in their
own ways and have different setsof information from which
they're operating.
But as children get older,they're going to be more acutely
aware and they're going tooverhear things.
Especially, girls are going totend to be more social.
They're going to be outside thedoor, listening, trying to
eavesdrop on conversations.
Boys are going to be on hisPlayStation or Xbox, not care as
(09:54):
much.
If you start to have an olderchild, you're going to start to
get maybe some resist-refusedynamics.
Teenage girls very often willstart to be more aggressive
towards mom if she feels likemom's being unfair.
Dad usually is going to be alittle easier on a teenage girl.
Mom's going to tend to be alittle bit more tight and
disciplinary on a teenage girl.
(10:15):
So you can very often get asituation where you're going to
get these dyadic alignmentsbetween maybe a teenage daughter
and a father against the mother.
Boys tend to be more protectiveof their mothers and tend to
get more conflict with theirfathers as they get a little bit
older.
So you can have a similar sortof dyad comprised of dad and son
against mom, although sometimesyou know it's not 100%.
(10:37):
But those are some generaltrends that I think I've seen
over the years.
Essentially for all ages andstages and genders, you're going
to wind up seeing a baselinewith your child and a deviation
from the baseline in a waythat's negative.
And then it's for you to thinkto yourself this is a child who
has behaved X.
Now they're behaving Y.
(10:58):
I'm going to assume that mychild is the same child.
There's something that hasaffected them that they're
having trouble dealing with.
So what is that externalstimulus that's causing my child
to have this reaction and Iwould start looking around for
what that is.
What's the need that's notbeing met?
And just not assume my kid'sjust being a jerk.
(11:18):
My kid has a need.
Let me assess the need andsometimes the need is that
you're exposing them toco-parenting conflict.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So an example you gave was a dyad of a father and
a daughter that ally's the otherparent who's turning the child
(11:49):
against you instead of maybe hisown behavior as the chicken's
coming home to roost.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So the first thing I would do is reach out to the
other parent and say, hey, I'mnoticing this behavior in my
house or you're noticing it atyour house.
See if it's in both places withboth parents.
If so, then you can eliminatethe idea that it's a dyad,
especially if the other parentis being open with you about
that conversation and if youhave enough trust built up that
you can trust their response.
If you start to get the ideathat it is something between
(12:16):
your relationship with you andher, then I would get into
therapy right away to have athird party who could help you
address those concerns in alevel playing field, because
there's so much of a powerimbalance in having these
conversations with our kids thatit helps to have a third party
who can be the power balancer inthe situation and your child
also sees that you care enoughto do this and eventually your
(12:40):
child may say do we have to goback to therapy?
We're okay, can we stop?
Then you can resolve it.
But I think getting angry withyour child, getting frustrated,
getting defensive, those are allthings that are just going to
reinforce the situation that hasbegun to develop.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Great Switching gears .
For a moment, I was thinkingabout technology and
communication and how technologyis playing an increasing role
in co-parenting.
I know you're familiar with theBest Interest app and I'm
curious how do you see apps likeBest Interest and other tools
assisting parents in this newmodern era?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
The Best Interest app is pretty interesting and I've
already recommended it to someof my clients because I love the
unilateral nature of it.
You don't have to have theagreement to get on board that
app and it's really protectingyou from yourself.
The incoming communications maytrigger you, but it's you
that's being triggered andyou're the one who's going to
have the response to it.
That is unhelpful and so it isshielding you in the moment from
(13:43):
this triggering communicationso that you can have time to
consider why you were triggeredby it and how maybe to get past
that with a therapist, with agood friend, with some other
advisor.
And in the meantime it allowsyou to respond to the actual
substance that matters of thecommunication, instead of what I
(14:04):
think some people do is theyfire off a quick rejoinder that
is aggressive and unhelpful, orthey just don't want to look at
it because they know it's goingto be negative and so they don't
respond and they start to betold that they're unresponsive
and it's their fault.
So I think it protects the userfrom themselves while they're
able to figure out how to notmeet it.
(14:26):
The part of that app it'samazing and I love the fact that
kind of inherent within it isyou can always use it.
It can also train you to notneed it, and any app that has
that inbuilt is, I think, a goodthing.
It's not just there to say Ialways want your money, it's I
want you to help get better andcommunicate better, which is
great.
Other co-parenting apps, whichtypically are by court orders
(14:49):
our Family Wizard, but withparents for example those apps
are great.
They have other tools that arevery helpful having that shared
calendar, having expensereimbursements, and also I'm a
parenting coordinator as well.
So to be able to just look intoour Family Wizard, for example,
as a court professional, thecommunication between the
parties, to not rely on somebodysending you an email that maybe
(15:11):
isn't exactly the same as itwas when it was sent, or trying
to put together text messagesthat came to you asynchronously
and you're not quite sure howthey went saves a lot of time
and money for everybody.
And then, additionally, theseapps are now starting to put in
these secure calling featureswhere you can have video calls
between parent and child, whereyou don't have the other parent
(15:32):
over the child's shoulder, butmaybe the parent you're
concerned about using someinappropriate language or
inappropriate manipulation isprobably going to be a little
bit more careful because theyknow that they're being recorded
and if they aren't, you haveimmediate access to show
something to the court thatthere was a problem that wasn't
you.
So there's different apps, havedifferent benefits, but I think
(15:54):
they're all helpful, even forsome healthy co-parenting
relationships.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
As a co-parent myself , I know how difficult
communication can be.
That's why I created BestInterest, the co-parenting app
that uses advanced AI technologyto automatically filter out all
negativity, promoting positivecommunication and helping you
create a healthier environmentfor your family.
Try it now and get 10% off withcode BEYOND10.
(16:20):
Link in the show notes.
And now back to the show.
You mentioned about the videocalling and the recording.
Apple recently released theability to transcribe phone
calls and, I believe, video aswell.
How does this come up inco-parenting dynamics, courting
the other parent and theirinteractions?
Do courts generally frown uponthat or are they accepting of
(16:44):
that information?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It's an interesting dynamic and it depends upon the
judge.
Some judges have had their ownpersonal experiences with being
recorded and maybe didn't likeit.
Some judges maybe recordedsomeone else and thought it
would save the day.
So you have to know the judge.
I know what their personaldynamic is just from having been
around for a while, and so ithelps to know what your judge
(17:07):
wants or doesn't want for sure,which is why an attorney can be
helpful.
But then also, let's assumethat your judge doesn't really
have a belief either way aboutwhether it's good or bad.
So what does it do to therelationship?
It can make the relationshipbetter If you're having really
poor communications.
If everyone knows that therecording is happening, I think
(17:30):
it's fair to say, hey, I'm goingto be recording these
conversations, I want to be onmy best behavior.
I hope you are too.
I'm giving you a heads up thatyou're being recorded.
That's one thing, and I thinkthat can be helpful.
If you're surreptitiouslyrecording the other party, then
you may get some goodinformation, because maybe you
don't want to destroy theevidence.
There's always the observereffect.
(17:52):
When someone knows they'rebeing observed, it destroys the
experiment.
But just know that most judges,if they receive a
surreptitiously recordedconversation, they're going to
understand that you're an actorin that situation.
You're not you, and so youreally have to be on your best
behavior, because they're goingto say you knew you were being
recorded.
They didn't know they werebeing recorded.
I'm going to have allinferences about intent and
(18:13):
whether it's good or bad againstthe person who knew it was
being recorded and give somebenefit of the doubt to the
other.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Got it, and also I'm not sure about Oklahoma, but in
some states like California it'sillegal to record without
consent.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yep, so it depends on the state you're in as well.
Oklahoma is a one-party consentstate.
Now there's also differentrules in the different states
and this is federal case law aswell regarding the ability of a
parent to record on behalf oftheir child.
So if you're not in aconversation but your child is
with the other parent, you, as alegal guardian of that child,
can, under certain circumstancesand depends on the case law and
(18:49):
all that have the ability torecord surreptitiously even
though you're not really part ofthe conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
This is bringing up some questions I have about some
of the legal complexities ofco-parenting can be really
overwhelming for parents.
What advice might you give to aparent who's feeling
overwhelmed by all the legal andemotional complexities
recording or not, ofco-parenting?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If we're talking about legal and emotional
complexities, I would say divvythem up and take them to the
proper professional.
So, if you have a legalcomplexity, don't be a Google JD
.
Don't think that you can Googleit and find out.
Don't think ChatGPT is going tobe the exact, right answer.
Chatgpt can send you to astatute, but it won't be able to
interpret it for you and itwon't be able to tell you how
(19:36):
the judge in your case is goingto be thinking about the
situation.
So, please, it's like having aGoogle MD.
This usually does not turn outwell, so let's not do that.
In terms of emotional, you needto go get support.
Emotional, you need to go getsupport.
If you're struggling, there isno harm in going to see a
therapist to talk about what'sgoing on, to get some tools, to
get some feedback.
Don't handle it on your own anddon't necessarily trust that
(20:00):
the person in your circle who'sthe most willing to talk with
you about it is willing to talkwith you about it, because they
want to tell you only helpfulthings Lots of times.
People in your circle who havegone through the situation and
so you respect their experience.
Sometimes those people are alsobitter and nasty and they're
going to tell you informationthat's going to be ultimately
unhelpful for you.
Kind of keep you stuck Rightright, and it's not necessarily
(20:24):
fair to them to put that on themand to expect them to give you
unbiased information whenthey're not unbiased.
They love you, they want what'sbest for you.
They're going to be on yourside.
It's more helpful to have aprofessional to help you through
those emotional things thansomeone else.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And it's really refreshing to hear an attorney
promote mental health, workingwith therapists in these
situations.
I applaud you for your stanceon that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I think it's critical .
There are lots of times I tellmy client I'm not your therapist
.
I probably charge more than atherapist would charge you, and
what I'm giving you is notnearly as good as what you would
get.
So please, please, please, goget a therapist.
And in fact in lots of cases Iwon't work with you unless
you're seeing a therapist,because it's not going to get us
anywhere.
I don't like to lose either, soI don't like to go into court,
(21:09):
and my client's been the jerk.
I mean that's a horribleposition for an attorney to be
in because it cuts our legs outfrom under us.
So the better I can equip myclient with good mental health
resources, the better they'regoing to be.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm sure you've been surprised by secret
communication that your clienthas sent out and then entered
the courtroom unexpectedly.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I was surprised just last week by something I can't
say, but it was horrific, one ofthe more horrific things I've
encountered in the last 17 years.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So, yep, I want to know, from your perspective for
listeners that are starting offon their co-parenting journey.
Speaking of the overwhelm, whatare your top three pieces of
advice that you would like toleave them with today?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Someone who's starting off co-parenting for
the first time.
Yeah, it depends on the age andthe stage of the child.
You know there is a professorfrom the University of Virginia
and his name is escaping me atthe moment, but he took Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, dr Emery,and he turned it into a
hierarchy of needs for childrenin two homes.
(22:12):
What I would say to you is Iwould try to find that hierarchy
of needs in two homes and Iwould consider it your ethical
obligation to go aboutco-parenting as if you were
looking to raise your child upthrough that pyramid to their
highest level.
And the highest level that achild can attain in two homes is
(22:34):
to just be a kid, to not be akid of divorce, to not be a kid
stuck in the middle, to not be akid who has loyalty, binds and
conflicts that they aren'tequipped to handle.
Ratchet them up and if you findthat you're the limiting factor
in how high they can ascend inthat hierarchy of needs, then to
get yourself the help you need,to fix yourself so that you're
not the obstruction to yourchild's betterment, as much as
(22:55):
possible, so long as it doesn'taffect the safety of your child.
Leave the past in the past.
If your ex cheated on you, thenmaybe you don't trust them.
Start rebuilding trust step bystep by step, little things
leading to big things over time.
If you think that you're thebetter co-parent, then I think
you have an ethical obligationto do everything in your power
(23:16):
to help the other parent be abetter co-parent.
That means giving them thespace to admit inadequacy to you
and not attack them for it.
To help them out when you thinkthey're having difficulty, in a
way that isn't going to angerthem, that isn't looking to put
them down while you're helpingthem.
It's your job to make sure thatyour child reaches adulthood
(23:38):
healthy, happy, capable ofmoving on with life and having a
good relationship with bothparents, if at all possible.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's great.
I'm curious about situationswhere there's a lot of
diagnostic terms thrown aroundnarcissism, borderline right and
I find that, speaking withco-parents that believe their
co-parent is a narcissist, theytend to be very fixed in their
beliefs about what's possible,what they should do or shouldn't
do, and you're talking in a waythat's more expansive and
(24:09):
understanding and maybe comingacross the aisle.
I'm curious what you mightadvise the client that is
talking about their co-parent inthis way.
Is this a real fear or is thissomething for them to get
through?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
A vast majority of female clients who come in say
that their husband or ex or thefather of their child was a
narcissist.
A lot of the men who come inwill say that the mother was
bipolar or borderline, and it'snot at all in keeping with the
actual statistics of thepopulation of the United States.
So it is impossible for thenumber of people who think their
(24:43):
ex was a narcissist or bipolarfor them to actually be so.
So from my perspective, it'sunhelpful to deal with those
labels, and I'll also just knowthe court when they hear you say
that they think, oh, there'sanother one.
So instead, focus on behaviorsand focus on present behaviors.
(25:04):
Even if your ex actually is anarcissist, if your narcissist
ex can learn behaviors that arehelpful for co-parenting, then
what does it matter?
Right?
So the key is to focus onbehaviors.
That's what can be changed.
If your ex is a narcissist, thatcan't be changed.
If your ex is borderline, thatcan't be changed.
So why dwell on something thatcan't be changed?
If the behaviors can improveand you can live with those
(25:25):
behaviors and you feel safe andyour children are safe, then
focus on the behaviors, and alot of it starts with you.
You have to incentivize whatyou want to get.
Whatever you subsidize, you getmore of.
So take every opportunity youcan to subsidize good behavior
by a co-parent, and they'll tendto show you better behavior
(25:45):
than they have in the past.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Going back to the co-parent who's just starting
out, oftentimes they're doingsome Google searches and they're
looking up what is a parentingplan, and maybe they're even
downloading a template, andmaybe they don't even have an
attorney yet.
I'm curious if you have anyadvice for that early co-parent
in terms of a parenting plan.
What are some provisions thatwhen they arrive at your lap,
you're like oh, he should haveincluded this and this and this.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Before I forget to say this, depending on the
jurisdiction you're in, you cango online and you can find
examples of parenting plans.
So, for example, in Oklahoma wehave our OSCNnet and you can go
online and you can find all ofthe joint custody plans or all
of the parenting plans forpeople who don't have joint
custody, and you could downloadsome of those and look through
them and see what makes sense toyou and what doesn't.
(26:32):
So you can start there if you'dlike, depending on your
jurisdiction.
Also, I think it helps to thinkabout it in terms of legal
custody and physical custody,two completely separate things.
So for legal custody, the bigdecisions tend to be education,
religion, extracurriculars,medical, dental, psychological,
those kinds of things.
If you have disagreements withyour co-parents that are major
(26:55):
disagreements on any of thosebig things, then it may be the
case that either joint custodyplan isn't for you or you may
need a joint custody plan thathas specific carve-outs for the
areas of disagreement.
When it comes to thatdecision-making, it may be the
case in your jurisdiction youhave a parenting coordinator who
could be appointed to help youwith disagreements about those
areas in which you disagreewithout having to go through all
(27:18):
the expense of going back tocourt For physical custody.
I think it's important to thinkabout the age of your children.
Week on, week off may be betterfor you because it's easier
fewer transitions, you don'thave to see your ex as much but
if you have an infant, it's notbetter for your infant, right?
So you have to think about howold is my child?
As your children get older, youmay prefer to see them every
(27:39):
day.
You may prefer to see themevery other day and have
exchange every other day.
For some reason, your kid hatesit.
And they have lots ofextracurriculars.
They've taken lots of stuff toschool.
They have like lots ofequipment for sport or for band.
They would rather havesomething like a
week-on-week-off, somethingwithout the midweek transfers.
Think about holiday schedules,vacations.
(27:59):
What do you do with three-dayweekends during the school year?
How do you align them?
Is your family, does yourfamily not celebrate Christmas?
Maybe there's a differentholiday you can change, exchange
for that.
Maybe you like to do things inthe fall and your co-parent
likes to do things in the spring.
Maybe you always take fallbreak and they always take
spring break.
So don't think it has to becookie cutter.
(28:21):
Think about your life, thethings you cherish, the things
that you want to do.
Think about the other yourco-parent things that they like
and they cherish and see if youcan both get the most out of
this plan without either one ofyou actually missing something
that you would care about.
It doesn't have to be equal.
You may get less of somethingbut more of something else that
(28:43):
makes up for it.
What?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
sorts of conflicts do you see that arise out of
parenting plans?
Are co-parents often conflictedabout schedules, or what are
some of the things that come upin?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
court, co-parents tend to settle into a schedule
that makes sense for their lives.
They'll tend to start to worktogether to trade things off
when they can, unless it's areally, really toxic
co-parenting situation.
So physical custody schedulestend to take care of themselves,
unless it started off with oneparent getting way less time,
and then you're always going tohave that.
(29:15):
Now some people like when myson was young and I was working
80 hours a week, 100 hours aweek, literally.
If I were to have been divorcedat that time, I would have just
been every other weekend and Iwould have loved it.
I would have been the bestDisneyland dad ever and that
would have been okay becausethat's what I could have handled
and I would have had a greatrelationship with my son on
those bases.
(29:36):
In terms of legal decisionmaking, extracurriculars will
come up and bite you anddepending on where you are I'm
in Oklahoma, so tumbling turnsinto gymnastics, turns into
travel, turns into thousands andthousands of dollars.
T-ball turns into Little League, turns into travel baseball.
So making sure that you're onthe same page about
extracurriculars, both in termsof interference with the other
(29:57):
person's parenting time and thenalso with the expense, that's
things that really start to comeup.
Also, making sure that there'ssome provisions that medical
care that is not an emergencywhere you don't have a choice,
is going to be done in networkand that you're going to agree
before really expensive thingsthat aren't mandatory get done.
(30:18):
So are we talking about lenses,contact lenses and glasses?
Are they both necessary?
Maybe not?
We're talking about braces whenand how are we going to do that
?
So there's lots of differentthings that can come up.
Does your child need tutoring?
If so, who we going to do that?
So there's lots of differentthings that can come up.
Does your child need tutoring?
If so, who's going to do thetutoring?
How expensive do you want thatto get?
So those are the kinds ofthings that can start those
(30:39):
pocketbook items.
As children get older, daycareis just devastating for folks.
So, talking about daycareproviders, there actually are
situations in which it's betterfor one parent to maybe work a
little bit less to receive childsupport, but you're both not
paying.
You know, $1,500 a month indaycare.
(31:00):
So just to sort of be pragmaticand be open to possibilities
that may be best for you both,even though you wouldn't have
thought of it before.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It sounds like the more important thing when you're
first mapping out that initialparenting plan is that you
perhaps work on communicationand that relationship, because
things over the course of yourco-parenting relationship will
change dramatically, especiallyif your kids are young, so it's
hard to anticipate what mightcome next.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
They're built to change.
That's why in Oklahoma, you canjust file amendments to the
Joint Custody Plan.
I think that you shouldanticipate that they're going to
change and it behooves you,especially if your kids are
young, to rebuild trust ifyou've broken it, to rebuild
those ties in the relationshipso that, when it comes time that
you're going to need something,that you're going to need to
make some changes, that youmight have a relationship with
(31:49):
your co-parent where they'rehappy to help you, instead of
looking for an opportunity togive back for something that you
did to them before.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
That's really helpful .
I'm curious if there's anythingthat we didn't cover that you
would like to mention to ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Just one thing that I can think of is if you're going
to make changes, get it inwriting, get it filed with the
court.
We're going to make changes?
Get it in writing, get it filedwith the court.
Too often people have thesesort of handshake deals or they
have an email and they rely onthat for years and years and
years and then it comes back andbites them.
So some examples where someoneagreed to not pay child support
anymore, but they were going topay 100% of the extracurriculars
(32:26):
.
But then, you know, down theroad the person comes back and
says you're not paying me mychild support.
You owe me $60,000.
And that agreement that youmade doesn't hold up in court.
So just make sure that youdocument and you file updates to
your joint custody plan, if youhave one, to make sure that
(32:46):
everybody knows that they're onthe same page.
Nobody sees an opening to takeadvantage of the other person,
and just one of those goodfences makes good neighbors,
steve.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's a really good point about good documentation,
and it brings up anotherquestion in my mind about what
makes good documentation for thecourts.
What do they trust?
Do they trust to print out of atext message?
Do they really care where itcomes from?
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Let's say that you're getting together with a
co-parent.
You're getting along, and ifyou have a place where you can
file something in your courtfile I don't know how every
state operates, but print outsomething, type it up with as
much detail as you can think,sign it both of you in front of
a notary and file it with thecourt.
Nothing else has to happen withit.
(33:30):
But if you file it with thecourt, no one's going to lose it
.
It's going to be part of thecourt file.
You can always go back and saywe had an agreement and there it
is.
Having a text message isn'tgoing to do much good because I
could go online and I could fakea text message from from you,
saul, in about 10 minutes inwhich you promised to give me
everything you own.
It's so easy to fake audio.
(33:50):
It's so easy to fake videonowadays.
It's so easy to fake textmessages and emails that you
really shouldn't rely on that.
If it's important enough toreach an agreement regarding
your children and you're goingto rely on it for years it's
important enough to put down onpaper, to get it signed in front
of a notary, so no one can sayyou forged your signature and
you get it filed with the court.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
That's really good advice.
Ron, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast today.
You're welcome.
It's good to see you again.
Thanks for joining us on theCo-Parenting Beyond Conflict
podcast.
To support our show, pleasesubscribe or leave a rating.
See you next time.
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