Arabian Working Western Alliance: AWWA EP 36

Arabian Working Western Alliance. The newest challenge in western competition to test your skills. Cowboy is cool. Showing horses, western skills, Arabian and Half-Arabian horses as well as all breeds as the western skills needed to work with your horse.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the cowboy office show with expert analysis and
epic discussion on the Arabian working western alliance, your
Co host Sir Jodi Brainerd and Brian dyker, industry veterans
with over 120 years of combined judging, competing, training and
living the cowboy lifestyle. In this series, we highlight the
growing popularity of the Working Western Alliance and the

(00:20):
programs available as we aim to ask important questions that
create change. Together we will learn from the
ride already ridden, explore thetrail not yet taken, and help to
make our industry better for us all.
Each episode will ride around the Working Western industry in
less time than it takes you to load
[e-mail] first access to these

(00:41):
episodes, exclusive industry insights and be sure to say hi
to us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Don't forget to visit arabianworkingwestern.com com to
learn more about their programs and incentives.
Saddle up as we ride into today's show.
Hello horse world. The Yellowstone Effect has hit

(01:03):
the horse show world. Living the cowboy lifestyle is
gaining ground as it's good for people and good for horses.
No doubt the working western lifestyle leads to working
western disciplines and competition, raining, cutting
cow horses and ranch riding. Today is the first of a four
part series as we explore the Arabian Working Western

(01:25):
Alliance. Welcome to the cowboy office.
I'm Brian. And I'm Jody.
Today we have the founder and Executive Director as well as
one of the board members of the Arabian Working Western Alliance
with us. First, let me welcome Sandy
Worley. Sandy, good to see you again.
Welcome. Hi, Jody.
After a career as a social science researcher, having

(01:46):
worked for the US Department of Justice, she returned to her
family farm in Wisconsin to raise hay and working western
Arabian horses. Her small breeding program has
produced national champions in Raining ranch riding and rain
cow horse. She currently serves on the
AHAUS National Show Commission and is the executive director of

(02:08):
the AWWA. Sandy, we can't wait.
Kind of a little quiver here, sobe gentle.
It's all good. And next, let me welcome my long
time colleague and really good friend, Leo Foray after
returning home from his service in Vietnam.
Leo, thank you for your service.Leo and his wife Sharon moved

(02:30):
from Minnesota to a large cattleand horse ranch in New Mexico
where he was responsible for allthe ranch duties, including
starting the two year olds. And if I'm not mistaken, you're
still doing that on a working ranch and the horses that are
used during the week for checking and sorting cattle are
cleaned up on the weekends for horse shows.

(02:50):
Leo has been an AQHA judge for 44 years, an NRHA judge for 38
years, also an approved judge for the Rain Cow Horse
Association and in the working Western Division of the Arabian
Horse Association. Beginning in 2010, Leo served as
an AQHA show steward, officiating both AQHA Open and

(03:10):
Youth World shows. Leo currently serves on the
board of directors for the Arabian Working Western
Alliance. Leo, I can't believe that I've
known you this long, but welcome.
We're glad to have you. Well, Jody, thank you for having
us here today. And every time I'm with you, I
think about the days when that we all used to come down and
ride for a couple of days with you before the Rochester Horse

(03:32):
Show at your place down in Rochester.
And it was always a good and interesting time.
Thank. You only 40 years ago or so
thereabouts. Hey, the good news is we're
still all here. Exactly.
Every day is a good one. Yep, we count our blessings and
every day is a good one. Most of us know about the vast
versatility of the Arabian, the Arabian and the half Arabian

(03:53):
horses and all the things that breed has to offer with beauty
being probably on the top of that list.
That's probably the most common thing that everybody thinks
about when you say an Arabian horse.
And maybe even more so is a common misnomer that the Arabian
breed is a little schizo, a little flighty, really a
misnomer. But, and all of us have direct

(04:14):
experience with riding and training Arabs.
I know I did and you guys did too.
It's an interesting part of the conversation, but really is a
misnomer. If you walked into the airport
and asked any pass her by what they knew about an Arabian
horse, he'd probably say beautiful but a little bit
flightier. So the big question is, Sandy
and Leo, why create the Arabian Working Western Alliance?

(04:37):
Go ahead, Sam. Because I knew this was going to
be our first question. Because he's right.
It is something that seems to bepart of the Arabian horse
culture. It's something that we have to
deal with all the time. And that's probably the biggest
reason or one of the biggest reasons that we started the
Arabian Working Western Alliance, because these horses
represent bloodlines that have been doing raining, cutting cow,

(05:00):
horse ranch work on real ranchesfor generations.
And we have particular bloodlines that are bred and
known for doing these kind of things.
Yet within the industry, especially back in the 1970s and
the 80s, it was very lucrative to be breeding horses that the

(05:20):
firing Arabian stallion, you know, and he's striking and our
big trotting flat saddle horses,they really do stir a passion
and bring a sense of awe and beauty.
But meanwhile of the blue collarworking Western Arabian horse,
he's going about his thing and we want to recognize those
horses. That's the second thing that led

(05:42):
to the development of the AWWA is to provide recognition and
open opportunities for the Arabian working Western horse.
Well, totally agree. And the thing that has impressed
me about the working Western quote, UN quote horse is that it
goes back to what you and I grewup with, Jody.

(06:03):
The horses that we showed and rode were the horses that were
every day they had a job. And it's been a little bit of an
issue. I think, and we'll get into this
in the next podcast, that turning a job for a horse into a
horse show class can be somewhatproblematic.
And so we'll talk about that I believe, next time a little bit

(06:25):
more. But the strength in almost any
breed, certainly the Quarter horse paints, Appaloosas and the
Arabians as well, has been the working type of horse, the horse
that you use every day. And they weren't prima donnas.
Like Jody said earlier in my introduction that when I worked

(06:46):
on the ranch in New Mexico, we didn't have any show horses, but
we went to horse shows. And I think that would be nice
to get back to that. And were most of those Arabs on
that ranch? Not New Mexico, where I was.
But it was the same kind of a situation, though the horses
were used all the time, right? They had a job.
They were. And then you'd clean them up and

(07:07):
go to a horse show and kind of do the same thing.
But you did it in a style that allowed your horse to you and
your horse to work together and get a job done right.
I think that's one of the thingsthat people really love about
their Arabian horse is that theybecome like a member of the
family. It was over at the Scottsdale

(07:27):
show today and talking to to Velvet Heiser.
I don't know if you know her, but she's from Wyoming and they
have a ranch and they raise Arabian horses.
And so these horses are part of what they do.
But she also has them, you know,in the show ring.
They can take those horses and work on then they go to the
show. They're these are great family

(07:49):
horses. Versatility that Brian was
talking about is still there. It's a different kind of level
that you develop with your Arabian horse.
They also have quarter horses. And she said that when they go
up in the pasture, the quarter horses look up there.
Oh, it's her OK. And they keep doing their thing.

(08:10):
The Arabians look up and go, well, what's she doing out here?
And they come to her and they want they've got their nose in
your pocket. And I hear that a lot about
Arabian horses. That what makes them a great
family horse. For sure.
A little more personable. They they want to be with you a
little bit more, right? Yeah, well, Leo can.
Leo and Jody can speak to this more, But horses are what you

(08:33):
train them to be. And if you want the fiery
Arabian stallion, if you want the big trotting saddle horse,
we've got those too. But you know who rode my cow
horse? Talk about that.
Well, it could just as well havebeen a quarter horse.
It was a horse that you, the rider and the horse work
together for fun for both of us hopefully, and do a job.

(08:56):
Well, you guys remember I'm I'm going to diverge just a touch
only because we're all the same age.
But you guys remember when Barbara Williams won the limited
open world title on silver tie, don't you?
Yes, that was in the 80s and it was pretty, you know, the NRHA
still young, all the sports still young.
G came out and. Whooped for sure.

(09:16):
And anyway, so it was just pretty cool.
And and if you looked at Silver Tide, I mean, other than being
better looking, you know, most quarter horses are a little bit
more on the common headed side, you know, and Arab is
automatically a little bit better looking, you know, their
chiseled face and all that stuff.
So, you know, the cleanliness tothe throat, the neck, the

(09:39):
sharpness to the edges in their heads make them a more
attractive kind of horse. That was it was a talent.
And I we see it, we're going to talk about a few of them in
today's time. I mean, that was 30 years ago,
but which was not new news, so. No, but they were athletes.
Form to function, you know, whether they were quarter horses
or Arabians, you know they were built to do that and we still

(10:00):
have those horses built to do that.
We need to recognize them. That's what AWWA is about.
So the alliance is really focused on putting the emphasis
on the working Western wars, right?
Correct. And then doing it in various
programs that we'll get into in a second, but that's really kind
of your focus. And in today's industry, you see

(10:23):
that going How hard? Easy.
I things are just exploding. I just walking around on the
Scottsdale show grounds. Hey, if you have you got a four
year old that I could hey have you got and we just don't have
enough of them for the demand right now.

(10:45):
That's great. Great to hear from.
You know, I get a lot of calls because I'm my numbers on the
website. I get a lot of calls from
Quarter Horse mayor owners that want to breed to the right kind
of Arab stallion. So they're out there looking,
they hear about these half Arabs, they want to get in on
that too. And kudos to them for knowing

(11:06):
that they want to breed to the right one.
Joe, do you think spent some time riding them right?
Oh, I certainly have. I've, you know, I've ridden,
I've ridden quite a few and had a great deal of success.
I will just throw this story outthere at you, Sandy.
This is going back probably 25 years, but I was asked by
Natalie Gaylord if I would ride a couple of faturity horses for

(11:27):
half Arab faturity horses. And I'm, of course, you know, Ed
and I were playing golf in the golf course with good friend
John Vance. And of course, you're not going
to say no then, right? So anyway, she sends these
horses to me at really super nice horses.
And at that time, the futurity was in Lexington or Louisville.
Where was where? Yeah, brief fraternity.
Yeah, pre fraternity was in Louisville.

(11:49):
At the. Yeah, at the at the national
championship show, didn't they alternate every year there or
something like that? I mean, back then I believe,
Brian, the Arab nationals. Yeah, the Arab nationals.
Yeah, Arab nationals would rotate between Louisville, KY,
and Albuquerque, New. Mexico.
So this this was in Louisville. And what I'm the thing that's
interesting about this story we had the horses showed great, had
a great deal of success. But you know that the Arabian

(12:11):
Horse Association was guilty of bias because I first hand
experienced that. And what happened was his show
was so massive and there was no place to ride, right?
I mean, there's no place to ride.
So anyway, the outside there wassome areas and there's about 400
Arabians on lunch lines because pretty much nobody ever rode

(12:33):
them, right. So I had to sit and wait on my 3
year old for a spot when somebody got off the lunch line.
And so somebody gets off the lunch line, I go out there and I
start loping this colt in a circle and here comes the
Arabian Halderhorst guy out there and said, can I work my
horse here? And I said no.
And I thought, I wonder what's gonna happen if I, if I have to

(12:55):
knock an Arabian Halderhorst trainer down to have a place to
ride. But you know, if you had a
Western saddle on, really at that time, you, you weren't.
You were saying? Yeah, exactly.
So this is just fantastic. And the more I rode those
horses, trained some national champions, you have to
experience the Arabian yourself and the purebreds, the haves to

(13:16):
ride them. You have to experience that to
know how good they are. But I'm so happy to see this, to
see this working association come into play because people
will find out about it and I, I promise you it will grow.
Oh. Thanks, Jody.
And your story reminds me of another story.
I guess that's how we do this, right?

(13:36):
Yeah. But the a group of some pretty
well known people in the industry, Eleanor Hamilton and
Tom Redmond, Dick Ames, Joe Benton, you know, they got
together and they put that Scottsdale for charity and put
some money in there and. And the raining came along.
When when you get entries, then smaller shows go.

(13:59):
Oh, well, it that that raining is really popular, let's throw a
couple of raining classes in there.
Well, we had the worst ground inthe farthest arena and that
level of respect that you were talking about, it just wasn't
there. We have raining classes, but you
can go over there in that gravelpile.
That partly was what caused Leo and I to to bring the working

(14:21):
Western celebration about in Madison, WI.
It was a show that focused only on the working Western.
It was raining cow horse. We had some roping all night
long. Oh gosh, Lee and I still have
flashbacks. 2013 you guys put onthe celebration.

(14:41):
Yep, Yep. And everyone thought we were
crazy, but we had a lot of fun and by the time we figured it
out then COVID hit shut us down.So pieces of the celebration are
in the AWWA and that's when we talk about where the AWWA is
going. It's back to that all breed.
Let's have some fun with workingWestern kind of stuff.

(15:02):
I think that's changed though, Jody.
I think the Western disciplines do have the respect and AHA has
taken notice and it's a good thing to see that the working
Western horses have their place at the table now too.
Which is just the working horse,what you're doing with it.
And then we got to bring it intoa modernization of competition

(15:24):
because we're going to go to thehorse show.
There's not only the lifestyle of it, but then it's let's go to
the horse show and compete and see who's better today.
But the industry is going through this a little bit of
metamorphosis from that aspect of it where the saddle horses
had a lot of notoriety in the earlier days, and that's
starting to find different ground.

(15:48):
For sure. No, it, it is.
I was a Superintendent for the horse shows at the Minnesota
State Fairgrounds. And when that show was started
years and years and years ago, and Jodi will remember this,
living in Minnesota, the saddle seat, those kind of classes were
really strong. And by the time I left there,
they were getting so small. And it's a it's a shame to lose

(16:11):
that. I mean, the verse, the verse of
the show, it was really interesting that the State Fair
drew a lot of people to see and get close to animals, especially
for the kids that didn't they had no other access to it.
And and it was hard for people to understand.
What kind of a horse show is this?
What the class only has one or two horses in it, you know?

(16:34):
Yeah. And and the ranch working type
classes in in all breeds have loom so much that it's saved a
lot of weekend type horse shows to have those classes available.
And the the Arabs can do it as well as anybody.
And I, like Sandy said, we wouldlike to try to recognize those
horses, that our family horses and that the whole family can do

(16:58):
something with them and have a good time at the same time.
Talk about what the alliance is and what it's doing because you
have various programs inside it,right?
And so so with the modernizationin the whole Yellowstone effect
is about making cowboy cool again.
Talk about my age getting in theway.
Well, cowboy in the 80s was a urban cowboy.
It's, it's another cycle, different form, but other cycle

(17:20):
Cowboy's cool again. How do you guys see that?
What talk about the programs of the Alliance, what your focus is
on the working Western Arabian part of the industry and how
that fits in this whole new Cowboys cool part?
I've never been cool, so I can'ttalk to that part, but I'll tell

(17:40):
you about some of our programs. And we wanted to recognize the
amateur. And I, I think that a lot of
this growth in working Western is coming because the amateurs
want to ride their horses and they're not necessarily in it to
the level of having a trainer. And some of those Western

(18:03):
Pleasures show outfits are quitepricey.
So here's the level that we can take our horse and we can show
and we feel like we can do it ourselves.
And so we wanted to emphasize the amateur part of that.
Our first program that we came out with, so back in 2019 was
called the Bonanza program and it runs parallel with the US

(18:28):
national classes. So in reigning and cow, horse
and trail and ranch riding, those type of classes.
We also do a little jackpot on the side and everybody throws in
a little bit of money and then we give awards at the
exhibitors, trust the AWWA to hold on to that money and then
redistribute it for them. And that part has just

(18:49):
blossomed. Everybody likes getting into
that and getting a little check on the side and we really were
happy that the amateurs took to that the way they do.
One thing with the Arabians being part of USEF is that when
they talk about amateurs, when we say amateurs and not non pro,
is that we have classes that areamateur owner classes and we

(19:12):
also have classes that are amateur classes.
So if Leo owns a horse, an amateur, well, I'm sorry you're
a professional, but let's pretend you're an amateur, OK?
And so if he owns the horse as the amateur owner, he can go
into all of the AO classes, as we call them, and then someone

(19:33):
else can ride that same horse inthe amateur class, right?
So it's a nice way to get your friends involved.
Or maybe mom rides and she's notat the same level.
So that kind of thing goes on too.
And we reward amateurs. You don't have to be the amateur
owner. Today when I saw that in your
program that amateurs could rideothers horses, I thought that
was phenomenal. That's one of the first big

(19:56):
steps that I've seen our industry take it all and I'd
love to see more of it One we can have the conversation about
amateurs and non pros because they're basically all they're
all amateurs. It's.
What we title them in our world,the pro non Pro is the problem
and the pressure is amateurs want what amateurs want and I

(20:16):
thought that was fascinating. So do you see it?
Is the demand growing on that? Well, that amateur situation is
a little bit of a double edged sword because since you don't
have to own the horse, the people that are trying to sell
horses tell us that amateur angle is not the greatest thing
because they're in it to sell horses.
They don't want people sharing horses.
We do have an actual newer twistto that where we have what's

(20:40):
called the non related co-owner.So even though you own a horse
and your relatives can go in it,now you can own a horse, Co own
a horse. If Jody wasn't the consummate
professional that he is, we could say that Leo and Jody own
a horse and both of them can show it in an amateur owner

(21:04):
class as long as their family members don't start showing it.
And that neither of them are related to a professional
trainer. So you have to be careful you
don't just jump in and start sharing horses or some specific
rules you need to pay attention to.
But yes, on one hand, when horses are expensive, this is a

(21:26):
way that a lot of people can show at the national level and
share expenses. Someone goes in the amateur
owner class, someone else will go in the amateur class.
But on the other hand, we don't see a lot of selling of horses
because of that. OK, interesting.
That's kind of, like I said, theold, the double edged sword.
We've we've fought that in NRHA forever.

(21:46):
And yeah, it's a little bit likeLeo, you're familiar with it
too. But we, we call a rookie a, a
true rookie person to someone that hasn't shown a great deal.
And they open it up either. You don't have to own your
rookie horse. You can.
And so then all of a sudden you have a professional son or
daughter that, you know, really can ride, but they still qualify
as a rookie and they get on a very, very expensive horse and

(22:06):
they're the rookie of the year. And you know, how fair is it?
It's not at all. I mean, it's a circus, but try
to find ways to encourage peoplethat that would like to get into
the sport. And I think that's at least
you're trying to find a way thatto make everybody happy.
I think NRHA was one of the first organizations to realize

(22:26):
that. You and I both remember, Jody,
when we started this back in thedays of the early NRHA, there
were two classes, open and non. Growth, that was it.
And it would take all day. Yeah, 'cause there'd be 50 or 75
head in each. Oh my gosh, yeah.
Yeah. But but it discouraged new
people from starting because if they're going to start, they

(22:47):
have to be able to have a comfort level that they feel
like they want to start. And so NRHA was one of the first
groups to have the rookies and the limited and the different
divisions. I think it helped a lot and
encouraged new people give them a a place that their comfort
level was was going to let them get started.
Yeah. Well, to me, one of the biggest

(23:08):
pressures in today's industry, you're right.
What does everybody want and come Because when when we leave
home and we go to the horse show, we're actually wanting to
compete. And when we compete, we want to
compete against our equal peers.We don't want it to be unfair.
And there lies the continual pressure in our industry to keep

(23:29):
the fairness in the proper placebecause now the amateur owner,
the non pro, the in our day it was the spouses of the trainers
remembering we used to have the ladies raining doesn't exist
anymore, but everybody would scream because the wives of the
pros would dominate it. It's a big piece in the industry

(23:49):
that we are yet to figure out. I don't think it's at heart, but
we can keep going with that, yeah.
The way to get new people started into anything is give
them something that's at their comfort level.
Yes, because there's no reason they're gonna start with the
kind of a large dollar amount. But a national rain cowhorse

(24:11):
association. If a amateur or non pro rider
wins, I think they hit $1,000,000 rider status.
They're no longer allowed to show in the non pro, but that's
an awful lot of money to win there.
But something like that might bepilotable for people.
I hear you and I think you're ona big one because I think the

(24:32):
prize money on the non pro amateur side of the industry
versus the pro side is part of the area.
When I say it's simple to fix because that's where I think you
ought to limit it. If non pros amateurs are not
trying to compete for the money,it's an added rose to success.

(24:54):
That's my opinion, which means you'd want to limit that because
if you want the money and you want to put in the homework,
that opportunity has always beenthere and in today's time, it's
more so than it's ever been. I don't care what discipline it
is. If you want the prize money, you
want to win the Super Bowl, do your homework and get on the

(25:14):
team and go, go be there. Can you do that in the horse
world? Yes.
Should we be overly awarding thenon professional side of our
industry with prize money? Because that's what we'll begin
to incentivize the other behavior, unfair competition.
That's my point, and my point has always been they were never

(25:36):
limited from access to the money.
All they had to do was enter. It's true, and we've seen it.
Open is open if you want to go for the big money.
It doesn't matter who you are, what you do for a living, you're
welcome to try. Right.
But the fact with the alliance with you guys now using prize
money as part of the incentive to breed and be active with

(25:58):
working Western horses, right. And you are paying amateurs,
yes, they're getting prize money.
And so is that working to your advantage for everybody's
incentive or are you starting tofeel some of those same?
Pressure. No, no, no, we're we're not
anywhere near that size of it. You know, just to back when we

(26:20):
were doing the celebration, it was so much fun to have all
those different breeds there, people coming from different
avenues, but yet they all loved raining or they all loved cow
horse. And in the show office, there
was a a whole line of Arabian exhibitors.
I just happened to know that they were Arabian exhibitors and
they were chatting and talking and they're so excited because

(26:43):
they were going to get a check after this, you know, and
usually at breed shows, you justride for ribbons, right?
So they were going to get a check after this.
The next ladies in line, I knew that they were all from the
North Central affiliate. You know, they were all Rainers
and. And they're like, yeah, but you
guys get Rose Garland's so you know, it's all what you're used

(27:04):
to, right? And I just thought that was the
greatest thing, that they were coming together and each one was
experiencing something differentand really thought that was
cool. Well, you know, I just want to
jump in here and Brian and I actually had this chat a little
while ago, and I said when I wasvery, very young, which was like
a bazillion years ago, I had theopportunity to go with my
father, who judged some shows onthe West Coast.

(27:25):
And at that time, Leo, you'd remember that the California
West Coast was night and day ahead of to the Eastern US when
it came to the western performance type horses.
I mean, they're big, they were beautiful.
They carried the bridle. They were, I mean, that was the
big thing with the Rainers back then when it first started with
K, what's better collected or the East Coast style and yadda
yadda. And those, those shows I

(27:47):
remember was the middle class finals.
It was a youth, the best youth in the country were on the West
Coast and there were 40-50 headlined up and they're all
rolling crickets and making so much noise, which to me, having
never heard that before, I couldn't believe that sound.
But those horses were all big, they were beautiful and you'd
have a paint next to an Appaloosa next to a quarter

(28:08):
horse next to they were all breeds showing.
So when you talk about this, tell me a little bit about your
Arabians again on this and what you do, you see that at some
point in time on all breeds competition where where your
Arabians and your half Arabians can actually go with other
breeds. We we are in those development

(28:29):
stages of and we haven't even started talking about our ranch
challenge, which is another one of our programs.
But when I was over at the Scottsdale show just a little
while ago, Ben Balow is one of the judges there.
And Ben's been a friend of mine for a long time, but he jumps
down out of the chairs and he goes, I can't believe these
things, Sandy. They could come and show next
week and I'm judging the Cactus Classic.

(28:50):
So it's so great that horsemen of that caliber recognize that,
yeah, these are horses that can do it.
We just through education and opening opportunities and to
keep doing what we're doing. I think we're going to bring
that news to it. I told a lot of people, I said
I'm going over the wall, I'm doing a podcast tonight and

(29:12):
we're going to be talking to thestock horses and and they
dumped. It gone to the other side.
Well, you know, that's what we say whenever someone who rides a
Porter horse comes to the US Nationals.
Like, Oh well, welcome to the dark side.
So it's going both ways, right? Well, that's, I mean, I, I love
hearing that too. And I, you know, this and this
question, we've, we've covered some of this already, but I just

(29:34):
want to get a little more in depth to it.
Now we know why. So, you know, tell us what is
the Arabian working Horse alliance?
Is it the same as like the ranchriding for Arabians?
Is that what that is? Or you know, is it what?
What is it? Well, the Arabian Working
Western Alliance is actually a nonprofit corporation that has a
mission to promote the Arabian and the half Arabian horse.

(29:58):
And we do that through these competitions.
We hold all breed horse shows. We put on clinics because a lot
of that comes through education.Again, I have to tell you a
story about one of our favorite people, Larry Caston.
He was doing a raining clinic for us up in northern Wisconsin
and I'm as far north in Wisconsin as you can possibly go

(30:18):
without falling into the lake. And Larry came up there.
Now my whole family has Arabiansand always has had Arabians, but
we don't, we don't show, we don't go to Arabian shows.
We do 4H and we do the saddle bread thing and we, my nephew
off of them, we chase cows off on them.
So we had a really nice little mare that actually did quite

(30:43):
well in the reigning competition.
And she was at that clinic with Larry and there's all the
quarter horses and it was actually at Dick Vernon's place.
So I'm sure you know the Vernon boys too.
And Larry, he goes little girl, little girl on that Arab bring
that air about here. And I thought, oh God, we're
going to, this is going to set us back 20 years.

(31:05):
And he, he told my niece he goesspin that horse for me.
She did. And Larry said that, ladies and
gentlemen, is a + 1 1/2. So it should be done, right?
Yeah. Exactly.
Kissed him. Yeah, for sure.
You know, but we need to have those avenues of exchange in the

(31:31):
Arabian industry. There's a lot of stuff that that
you guys do that just was unheard of.
And so there's a lot of cross pollination and that's a very
positive thing. So the AWWA is actually the
organization. I think what you're alluding to
is what we call the Ranch Horse Challenge, and that's a brand

(31:53):
new competition that we brought to the US national level.
And Leo can talk about this in in more detail.
But what we're trying to do is to reward the real deal ranch
horse to take that those maneuvers and the kinds of
things that were necessary to make a functional ranch horse

(32:17):
and put it in a horse show setting.
So Leo, you, you talk more eloquently about this than I do
so. This is actually your champion
from I think last year, right? Now that was, that was our first
year, OK. And, and if you look a little
bit at the obstacles there, there was a log on each side of
the, the area where he had to gothrough.

(32:38):
And the rest of them were like pieces of firewood log and the
horse had to pick its way through there.
And when the judges that we use that year were working
background at the the event, thechallenge is I'd like to see a
horse. I mean, I'd like to judge it to
where you think that's the horseyou'd like to take home.

(33:00):
And this just going over the logs was one thing, but we threw
these other pieces in there and there was no set path.
I just wanted the horse and the rider just to get through there
functionally and safely and to get from one side of that little
maneuver to the other side wheremaybe they actually had to do

(33:21):
the job. But to get there, you need to
get there safely and you need toget there with a, with a horse.
That picture that you had shows to me, it shows a horse that's
looking at what he's supposed todo, but he isn't being dictated
to. And that's the kind of horse I'd
like to take home. I think we all would with all

(33:41):
the horses we've ridden over theyears.
A horse that will help you, you take care of him and he'll take
care of you is is what the challenge is looking for.
At least that's Sandy and my thoughts on developing this
class. Yeah.
So going back to Jody's question, that particular event

(34:02):
is what we think would have a lot of mileage would be popular
if we could go back to that all breed competition format using
that event to do that to celebrate the ranch horse.
Greed. I, I, yeah, having having seen
the Arabians and the half Arabians, so they could easily

(34:24):
be as competitive as as any other breed in this competition.
I mean, it's like, yeah, I'd, I'd love to watch it, love to
judge it. I'm I'm writing that down, Jody.
Well, and the other thing about that ranch challenge is that
professionals can do it and amateurs as well.
And our half Arabian champion this year was actually won by a

(34:44):
non pro and Minion came up to meand she goes, can I do a
writer's substitution? And of course in the Arabians,
that's fine. Yeah, do that.
She goes. That looks like so much fun.
I'm kicking him off of there dead.
She booted him off of there for trainer off.
She got on and she won. It.
Love it. Yes, fantastic.

(35:04):
Really cool. Yeah, that's a great thing.
And kudos to her for being courageous enough to say you
know what, this is about me. That's awesome.
Yep, Way good. The modern push on the stock
horse side of the world is in ranch riding and we see it
growing and expanding a lot. And isn't that in part of your

(35:27):
alliance? Yes, yes.
So talk about that a little. Where does ranch riding fit into
that in your alliance? Well, branch riding is one of
the classes that we have in our bonanza program, so that can be
jackpot potted. The Ranch challenge isn't per SE
ranch riding, although there aresome maneuvers there.

(35:49):
We also have some raining maneuvers in there.
We throw a pen of cows in there.So they need to have, you know,
be able to push cows around a little bit.
So we don't want to favor any particular discipline over
another. We don't give them the pattern
ahead of time. They don't get the pattern till
they come to the show, which youknow, in ranch riding you've got

(36:10):
the set patterns to pick from and, and the same thing with
trail. You know, trail is gone now that
they want those patterns two weeks ahead of time and
practice, practice, practice. So the ranch challenge I think
is a nice blend of all of the working western disciplines
where you are showcasing the various aspects.

(36:32):
Why do we have reigning as a sport?
Why do we have cow horse as a sport?
Those came out of skills that needed to that the horse needed
to have to be a good working partner for you on the ranch.
So we're we're taking pieces of that going back to the
foundation and rewarding those horses that are good, versatile

(36:52):
all around kind of horses. I totally agree.
The the thing that has always been important to me in the
ranch classes is the way of going of the horse.
You know, Jody referred to the ranch that I worked on.
It was, it was owned by Jimmy Randall's, who was at the time
president of the National Cutting Horse Association.

(37:14):
And when we left the barn, I didn't want to get 13,000 acres
away from the ranch headquartersand find myself on the ground
because the force spooked at something because it was a hell
of a long walk back and I was worried about my saddle to.
So that first challenge class that we had, I helped Sandy and
I designed it together. But one of the emphasis I had

(37:37):
for it was as much long distanceas you could get at a particular
gate. So it allowed the judges to
evaluate the way that horse moved, not just what he could
do, but how he got from one place to the other.
And some years ago I helped someladies when I was still in
Minnesota that were in the hunter jumper business, and they

(37:58):
had some great old gildings thatwould take care of them.
And I said, I don't know how to get a horse over a fence, but I
bet I can get you from one fenceto the next better than you're
doing now. Well, that's the same thing to
me as the ranch. Between getting from one thing
they have to do to the next thing.
It is just as important as doingthe the little part of the job.

(38:19):
And so we've tried over the few years we've done it now, tried
to set up a pattern that would allow as much distance based on
the arena space as possible at aparticular gate.
So you can evaluate, you watch the horse's ears, you watch the
horse's tail. Is that horse just relaxed and,
and doing what you ask him to do?

(38:39):
And that's one of the things that I try to emphasize a lot
when I talk to the judges that are judging that class.
Is that at a struggling area? And I know we'll get into rules
and some of that in the next episode on this series, but
having judges get in tune to your ranch challenge that's
actually bringing all the skillsof a working Western horse and

(39:00):
putting them into this challenge, That's what you're
talking about. I think it's pretty cool.
So is is it? Is the next challenge getting
officiating on the page? You want them to be it.
Definitely will be an issue as we go along.
And the first year we did it, wehad some judges that were self
thinkers you might say. And there was a couple people
that were had to actually ranch experience.

(39:22):
And so they they knew that part of the job is getting from point
A to point B and being able to do the job.
But getting there, you wanted tobe comfortable, you want to get
there in a relaxed manner and with enough energy left to do
whatever they're supposed to do when they get there, trying to
emphasize that and foster that. And as Sandy talked about

(39:44):
earlier in the bloodlines that have proven that, that the
horses they produce, whether it's the mayor or the OR the
stud side, that's to me that's quite important in the in the
end result. That's interesting.
Very. If I could go back a little bit,
sure when we were talking about the different programs where we
do have a another program in theAW that's relatively new and

(40:08):
it's called the STAR program. These are for Arabian and half
Arabian horses that are not showing at AHA approved events.
I think there are quite a few Arabians that are out there, you
know, doing a weekend penning and sorting kind of thing, and
we don't see them at ah a approved events and we want to
find them and we want to recognize them.
There's also what really surprised me is how many

(40:30):
Arabians are showing on the NRHAin the NRCA level now by half
Arab, he had to show on the NRCAlevel.
We just don't have enough Arabian shows that have cowhorse
classes, so the AHA has a program for open competition and
he could get qualified for nationals through that.

(40:53):
It's become really tough to get our cowhorses qualified.
So the qualifications have actually been waived for for two
years now so that we can get these horses to nationals.
But the horses like I think you had a couple of pictures like
Easy Slider, who's shown by Nathan Kent, he was, he actually

(41:14):
was at the for charity and thosehorses are showing in Adequan
type stuff and the affiliate finals and things like that.
He's got over 15,000 in prize money.
And then Jesse Chase, he was on a Gray mare and he put her in
the Southwest for charity, Southeast for charity.

(41:35):
Excuse me, he's over in North Carolina.
And we're not, we're not trying to be level four horses.
We just want the respect and theacknowledgement that these
horses can do this if they're bred for it.
She happened to go national champion in Arabian reigning
that year. This is a purebred.
Both of those horses are purebreds, but.
Right then. She, she, she, she hung in

(41:56):
there, I think they were like 15and she was fifth.
So the STAR program is identifying and finding those
horses that are out competing onthe Open, what we call open
competition. That's great.
I think that's AI think that's agreat idea.
And I think so when you talk about that, some of those it
costs a lot of money to horse show.
And you know, we discussed that briefly when we started this

(42:17):
thing and it's like if you have a nice horse and I can take it
to three horse shows within a couple 100 miles of my house, it
a lot cheaper for me to do that than it is to go to Scottsdale.
So that that's what I'm going todo and to be recognized for that
if I have some success in my ownbackyard, I think it's
fantastic. I think you bring up a pretty
interesting subject and I was, Igot shocked recently, just like

(42:41):
within the last couple weeks, I was looking at show bills for
2025, Cactus Classics coming up,Florida rain and going on right
now, the Oklahoma Ride and Slide.
They all got aged events in them.
The cost before the entry fee iswhat I went.
Oh, so, so so we're getting up there and I hear that a lot.
So it's, it's one of the pressures in today's industry.

(43:06):
And I think it's a very interesting conversation because
the big events, we need big events, big prestigious, deep
competition, we need those. Should there be a zillion of
those? And that's where the exorbitant
pricing comes from, in my opinion.

(43:26):
Here comes what I see is the biggest demand and need in
today's horse show industry is in the middle and the entry.
We need more of those where costs are lower, competition is
amongst your peers and they're more readily available and let
people get experience and skillsand development.

(43:48):
Then if they want to go play at the big stuff, they they can go.
But that I see that across the board and everybody in the horse
show industry is trying to have the next bigger event, which is
about volume. Well, Jody touched on it.
Or if he could go to three or four shows close to home, keep
his expenses at a minimum. It's like I mentioned earlier,

(44:12):
everybody needs a comfort zone to start.
And comfort zone has to do with the classes they show in, but it
also has to do with the expenses.
So the more you can minimize expenses and have them be able
to go a place and do some of thethings they like to do is a
double plus. I agree with you.
I think there's there's too manyof those big shows that shadow

(44:35):
out shadow the weekend show, youmight say.
Yeah, yeah. Well, and where did you show in
that conversation? Where is the alliance fall into
that because you guys are reallykind of like a sanctioning
entity, right? You don't other than the
nationals, you guys produce the national piece.
Everything else is you're gathering it up through the
year, correct? We don't actually produce shows.

(44:58):
What we like to do is to help the ones that are already
established. You know, what you're alluding
to is the big shows don't need our help.
Scottsdale doesn't need our help.
The Nationals, we went to the Nationals because that was the
place where these horses could get showcased and that kind of
recognition. What we do on a more local level
is to find those shows that have, you know, ranch riding,

(45:22):
ranch rail. We have a ranch rail pleasure
class in the Arabians and we provide extra goodies, you know,
splint boots and ribbons and those lovely rose garlands and
those kind of perks that amateurs really like.
You know, I, I still have the first one that I want.
They're, they're nice little mementos and keepsakes of, of

(45:45):
something that you accomplished.So we wanted, we want to go on
the local level and not take those shows over, but help them.
And So what we do is give a little more incentive.
We do have a working Western celebration in Rancho Marietta.
Now that show, gosh, that that'sa well run show.

(46:05):
It's a successful show. But the working western part of
that show just didn't spark. It just didn't catch on.
The show manager and I, bless her heart, she called me up and
she goes, Sandy, we want to expand.
We want more horses. Our working western just isn't
igniting. Will you come do a working

(46:25):
Western celebration? Sure, sure.
We'll do one of those. That means you have to have all
breeds. That means, you know, we got to
have classes for whoever shows up with whatever horse.
And they agreed to that. Last year they had four horses
do Trail 4. They had four goes.

(46:48):
Working Western Celebration camein, we had 78 trail goes.
We blew up that poor lady's schedule.
She thought she could just, you know, borrow a judge from here
and then, you know, then we'll run him over there.
And I'm like, well, what do you mean?
We're not done with trail yet. She's like, so it's those kind
of things that we can do to helpthe smaller weekend shows that

(47:11):
are already there. We don't want to produce our
own. We want to and that came out of
COVID because when COVID shut down the Addison facility and we
didn't have a place to go, we took pieces of it and went to
the other shows. So it's really offering your
programs in existing shows, which then puts you guys in the
database kind of you're collecting the data, providing

(47:34):
some awards and stiff and that'show they going to end up at the
nationals for the championship, right?
Yeah, that's that's great. And I wouldn't be surprised that
Rancho Marietta would blow up. It's the full circle of that.
Back in those days, those open horse shows on the West Coast,
they were the dominant force. Oh yeah, the breed shows were

(47:56):
minimal, but the big shows that were prestigious to be at and
win were all breed. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they do a a gold buckled show.
I think that's what it's called there.
And that, that looks like a hugeshow in that same facility.
Well, I I would throw in AI would just throw in a question
here to Leo and we were just talking about this and we're

(48:17):
talking about the shows. We're talking about what you are
doing. And you know, since you are
unique, right? I mean, this is this is
something that's new, right? You're unique.
Is the possibility, Leo, for youto have some unique officiating
ideas available? I mean, if you say, hey, you
know what, we've got a better way to judge this.

(48:39):
You think that you would be ableto do that without stepping on
USCF or the Arabian Horse Association or whatever?
I mean, are you your little own entity?
Could you say, hey, we have a class and this is the way we're
going to judge this thing and I don't care what your rule book
says. Is that a possibility?
Sandy and I have talked about that and.
Oh, thanks for. Throwing that kind of worms.
Yeah, onward. Onward we ride.

(49:01):
Well, I think, I think maybe Sandy alluded to it a little bit
earlier on the breeding and so forth about form following
function. And I think we're going to have
to the officiating has to reflect what we're trying to do.
We're we're trying to take a jobthat horses do and turn it into
a horse show class. So I'm not as the original, the

(49:24):
first, the first quarter horse class to have ranch in it was
ranch riding. To this day, if you read the
rules in the rule book, there isno penalty for ticking or
hitting a log when you go over it.
There is no penalty. It says specifically there's no
penalty for over or under spins.If you're asked to, to start,

(49:46):
it's evaluated in the maneuver and, and that allows judges to
be judges. And I think that's what we, we
all are judges for is to, to evaluate what we're looking at.
So I think to answer your question, Jody, I don't know why
not. I don't know why we couldn't
dictate how the horse class is judged based on the objective of

(50:09):
the class. Every quarter horse class and
you look in the rule book, the first paragraph or two of the
description is the objective of the class.
Well, I think our objective could be just as valuable and,
and determine which is the rank the horses on how good they
accomplish what, what we're looking to accomplish.

(50:29):
So I think you could, Jody, I don't see any, any problem with
having a specific, maybe not quite as specific a judging
procedure, but have judges that can look at a horse and evaluate
them and like I said before, decide which one they'd like to
take home and ride every day. Right.

(50:50):
Sure. Agreed.
I think you're both on to something there.
Yeah, could be a big one. And your whole alliance could,
because I thought the ranch, thenext emergence of an association
that was a discipline based would be some sort of ranch
riding association. I'm surprised it hasn't happened
yet. I know that they're flirting on

(51:11):
the stock horse side, but it sounds to me like you guys are
already a couple steps ahead of that with a working Western
alliance. Yes, you're right now in the
Arabian and half Arabian, but I think that gives you a much
larger pool because nobody in the breed world has what Arabs
have with half Arabs and full blood.
We don't we you're either registered or you're not You're

(51:34):
great and if you're great, you got to just find a discipline.
So where I was going with all ofthat is you're already a couple
steps ahead and then what could be next?
And then when you talk about howdo you elevate and modernize
artificiating as well keeping the expertise that you're after

(51:54):
because that's what you want. And you now got a, you got an
industry that's produced a good number of them.
I'm I'm looking at two of them right now.
For sure. So yeah.
Well, yeah, we we hope to get down to the basics of training
and showing horses, and that's the horse and the rider working

(52:15):
together to accomplish whatever you ask him to accomplish.
And so inside do you guys get the how expensive it is you're
operating inside USCF and HA rules and recs and your menu on
fees is a little bit larger thanwe've been copying you guys for
a while. Ours is now getting elaborate.

(52:38):
Yours is already elaborate. But do you hear that a lot about
the expense? Oh, we do hear how expensive it
is, but you know, there's a lot of things going on in the, in
all the breed associations and the AWWA is not AHA, it's not
USEF. And so we don't have anything to
do with setting those fees or making those regulations.

(53:00):
And I, I don't sit on the national executive board for,
AH, that's above my pay grade and I, I want to keep it that
way. So I, I don't know what they're
doing, alleviate those kind of things.
I do sit on the US show Commission.
And let me tell you, those are some long nights with hard
discussions of how we're going to make the budget, how we're

(53:24):
going to keep things affordable,but yet put on one of the best
horse shows we can for our exhibitors because this is our
pinnacle event and we want to make this the national
championship show. But gosh, everything is going
up. And so we have to make some
really tough decisions. But I, I do, I can tell you that

(53:45):
entry fee increase, stall increase, that was absolutely
not on the table this year. We are not going to fund that
national show by increasing rates to the exhibitor.
We're going to find some other way to cut those costs.
Good for you, good for you. Yes.
Well, it's going to be interesting to see and I hear

(54:07):
you. This is my opinion on this one.
The breeds in the disciplines are all in the same boat.
And the boat is this. They're trying to serve a very
wide, diverse group of membership.
When you talk about a nationals or a world show or any of the
fraternity, the Derby, all of those things, the pressure is to

(54:30):
have more stalls, more horses. I think that, well, if we can
recognize that pressure now, we can begin to go solve it.
And in today's time I see the horse industry and some very key
components and a big one is I would break it between youth,
amateurs and pros and does AUS national horse show.
I'm just using you guys as an example because when you talk

(54:53):
about being on the US show Commission, you're talking about
for their Arabian nationals, correct, which is the production
of the national show. But the AJ puts on, don't you
put on four or five different national, the sport horses as
one. So I let me just throw out a
wild idea. Is it time in order to get keep

(55:14):
fees within approximate place? Is it time to pull those, pull
the youth out, pull the amateursout and let the pros be where
the pros are? And now you could have a
nationals and yes, it's more production because you'd be
talking about doing two or threedifferent.
You know, the AQHA used to have a separate seniors.

(55:35):
You know, they've combined all of those.
They've come back where they started in different.
I know it some of that is a numbers game, but I think that
there's some key components in there when you talk about trying
to service the membership in equal peers because that's part
of that mission. Yeah.
Well, our youth, the Arabian youth already have their own

(55:58):
show and that's held in OklahomaCity in July, so that they have
that show. It's a stand alone.
But because of COVID, we lost one of our jewels in the crown,
the Canadian nationals, and thatdid not come back in the same
format as before. And so there's been a lot of
discussion on that executive level about the Canadian

(56:19):
Nationals. There is a Canadian National
show, but it is not the same type.
It's not the same show that AHA used to hold as the Canadian
Nationals. So we do have a youth show in
conjunction what's now called the Midsummer Nationals.
Then we have the US National show, but there are no youth
classes there. They're just amateur, amateur

(56:42):
owner. And then the open classes are
there. And then we have a sport horse
show, which is all of the sport horses.
Now. There's been talk about pulling
the working western out of US nationals and having them be
their own. AHA does hold a ranch horse
championship in Colorado, but that's it doesn't seem to be

(57:02):
getting the traction that we hadhoped it to to do so that piece
has to be looked at again. Part of I think what's going on
there is our trainers are not asspecialized as what you might be
dealing with in the stock horse world.
I manage the Mustang arena, which is where most of the
working western classes are. The trail classes are over in

(57:27):
the pavilion and then in the Ford arena would be where we we
call our main ring classes. We have a tremendous amount of
exhibitor conflict between thosearenas because the trainers have
a Western pleasure horse and a hunt seat amateur client and
then they've got a trail horse going and ranch ridings going on

(57:49):
in Mustang. And so it is quite the balancing
act to make sure that everybody gets to their class at the same
time. And thank goodness I have a
wonderful staff that has been working together now for a
number of years because I believe in the philosophy of
building a team in order to, to run that.
And the judges are very understanding.
And I just have to tell them, hey, we're on, we're going to do

(58:11):
a real long drag here and then you can go get some coffee
because we're waiting for trail to finish up.
And that's the reality of the Arabian industry is our trainers
are also jacks of all trades. They've got horses that are very
versatile and they need to be versatile as well.
So I, I don't see how that wouldhelp us to pull pieces out

(58:37):
because that would just mean we would have fewer entries at the
working western. We've only got a couple hundred
of these horses and yet they go in nine different classes.
So it it's a lot of activity fora relatively small number and
those horses wouldn't be able topay for the Tulsa facility on

(58:59):
their own. So it's better, I think to keep
them together and try and work within the boundaries that we've
established for ourselves because that represents our
breed as well. You can come to the Arabian
horse show on any given day and watch the native costume and
watch the cow horses and see thethe beautiful halter horses

(59:21):
because all of that is going on at any given day.
I. Hear you.
One of the the factors is somewhat out of our control
though, and that's facility costs.
Everybody wants to go someplace where they know the weather
isn't going to bother and the nice facilities with a lot of
stalls are. I'm sure every year they get

(59:44):
more and more expensive. And yet people aren't going to
go to where there's there's two outdoor rings.
And in Arizona, we don't have toworry quite as much about rain.
But, you know, they want to be able when they leave home, even
if it's next door like Jody was talking about, they want to be
pretty damn sure that they're going to be able to show when
they get there. Yeah.

(01:00:06):
Good ground, good judges, good purses, good facility.
And yes, in the industry I see that as a very good thing
because in our lifetime the amount of venues that have come
to the market has actually done nothing.
But there are more venues than ever before and they are
continually upgrading. The other side of that coin is
they do cost, which is differentthan going to your county

(01:00:28):
fairgrounds. It's got one arena.
Isn't like going to Walnut Groveyour show, is it Jody?
Yeah, yeah, hey, we used to showoutside in the rain, the mud,
whatever. You know, a lot of places didn't
have a roof over them. So thing of the past, yeah.
You know, and I think it probably, you know, Brian and I
have had this discussion before when we talk about the cowboy
office in the state of the horseindustry in general, that

(01:00:51):
professional show management groups don't do this for the
benefit of the sport. I mean, they do, but they want
to make money. And that's, you know, I mean,
they're not, they're not doing it for fun.
They've got they've got huge amounts of expenses and they
also want to they wanted to pay and it does.
So it's those, it's the weekend shows where you get those, the
group of your volunteers that want to benefit and they want to

(01:01:15):
encourage their people to show locally.
And those are the ones that are the true backbone, I think.
And we just don't have enough ofthem anymore.
I mean, so it's kind of a catch 22 for.
Sure. Yeah, so the the US Show
Commission, we're all volunteersas a lot of those positions are
with greed associations. And bless you, It's like, good

(01:01:38):
Lord, you know, And you ever go like, really?
I love my sport, I love my horse, right?
That's it. Why do I do this?
Yeah, exactly. Breed is.
But when Brian was talking aboutbreed associations that they've
gotten themselves into a catch 22 because I see those things as
two separate things. A breed association to promote

(01:02:01):
the breed and then show production on the other hand.
And that's not what they were designed for, but that's what
they count on for their income and their revenue now.
And so it it they're asked to dosomething that really wasn't the
intention in the beginning, and now they count on it.

(01:02:21):
I agree. It's it's how our industry is
evolved over time. Breeds are really their primary
goal is to register the breed and they're supposed to be
looking after the integrity of the breed so that your genetics
are good and all that stuff. That's what their primary goal
is. It all evolved in our lifetime.

(01:02:43):
Horse showing the competition ofand then the business of and on
the stock horse side of the world.
We followed the USCF that what what used to be the Ahsa
American horse short show and the West Coast was the leader in
all of that. Those open all breed large horse
shows that we're doing it all. They had the saddle horses and

(01:03:04):
the stock horses that they had everybody.
That's Del Mar, you know, just. Yeah, boy.
So it's just, it's part of the evolution of the process.
And I would agree with you on the breeds because then showing
and having a championship was a piece of recognizing their
breeds. That's where it came from.

(01:03:25):
And we all came out of the fair industry, all our all our
counties had a fair, all our states had a fair and the
livestock was part of it, horseswere part of it.
And now here we are 40 and 50 years later.
Now we have venues that don't have fares, they just produce
horse shows. And so I see that as a pretty

(01:03:45):
cool thing. It's just that there's more to
that equation. And I think the cost is
relative. In today's time, we're seeing
inflationary costs. I think that that economic cycle
is going to do its thing. But Jody talks about it all the
time, but all comes back to the money one way or the other.
And what what do we do? This is what I see.
I see the horse show industry trying.

(01:04:08):
The horse show industry is getting older.
And our weakness is we are not drawing the next generation.
If we drew the next generation, the pressure to add more classes
to keep the older guys active would go down.
That's my $0.20. So we should quit trying to
service us as we get older, we'll figure it out.

(01:04:31):
And we should put the emphasis in the next generation.
And how do you get them involvedin a way you way you go.
And there's nothing but goodnesswith horses.
So it's it's not bad for people.And should we?
So that's the bigger piece. I hear it all the time, but
nobody. And I don't care what part of
the horse world you talk to, getting the next generation

(01:04:53):
involved is what they all say and nobody has answered.
And I certainly don't have the answer but I was thinking about
this the other day because when I go to horse shows, the lead
line classes are huge and the walk truck classes are even
decent size. But when they get in those
Middle Ages then you start to lose them.

(01:05:14):
And I, I did some research on resiliency and how sports retain
their participants. About the age of 11/12/13 is
where most of the, and it doesn't matter what sport you're
talking about, but that's where they start to drop out because
other things come into their lives.
So if they're showing horses, well now soccer becomes more

(01:05:36):
important or pep rally or the being a cheerleader or any of
those things, and they will dropout of the horse industry.
Another interesting study though, that I read is that if
these people have a taste of thehorse when they're younger, they
are more likely to come back to the horse when they have a job

(01:05:57):
and, you know, expendable income.
When they get to the point and that they can have their horse,
they've raised their kids. Gosh, I remember how much fun I
used to have at that horse show when my grandpa LED me around in
lead line. I'm going to get myself a horse
that's probably not going to happen, you know, till they're
4050 or something years old, right?

(01:06:17):
So I think it's a good thing to add those other classes.
I understand that it puts a pressure on, but we had a great
discussion at the US Show Commission meeting about adding
in hand trail. And I would have never thought
that we would be at a point where we have in hand trail.
But you know what, it makes sense.
There's so many people coming into the breed for the very

(01:06:41):
first time. They want to show their horse
just like everybody else. But this is where they can get
into the breed is with in hand trail.
So you know, everything is a double edged sword I guess when
you start debating the pros and cons of stuff and what are the
unintended consequences of that.You know, if the people that

(01:07:02):
have the money are 60 year old ladies that want to ride a horse
for the first time, you betcha I'll put a class in for you
because because you're right, there is something about a horse
that enhances your life and we all got to live that lifestyle.
So I don't begrudge somebody whogrew up in the city and always

(01:07:25):
dreamed of having a horse, and now they can, and I think that's
great. I agree.
I agree. I think that's great.
So and part of this discussion that we're that we're having,
but what about your, your short term goals for the AWWA and Leo?
Tell me about your long term, I mean say from the officiating,
from the professionals ranks. I mean, talk us through a little

(01:07:47):
bit of that. Where?
What direction are we going here?
We're going in the direction to make, I think, horse activities
more palatable and more attractive to more people.
It goes back to sort of what Sandy was talking about too, how
we do that. There may be several options and
we just have to figure out the most productive one.

(01:08:11):
I grew up in the city and when Iwas a kid, the early days of
television, who were the heroes?The Cowboys, They weren't, they
weren't sports guys or rock stars or what.
And everybody my age when I was in grade school wanted to have a
horse and I never outgrew it. And the rest of them did this

(01:08:32):
kind of the way the way it endedup when I when I go back to when
I managed the the horse Superintendent for the Minnesota
State Fair. But you know, being at the fair,
Jody, back back when I was a kid, almost everybody still had
an agricultural connection. Uncle had a farm or grandma and

(01:08:52):
grandpa had a farm. And you could see animals the
further it went into time, the only place that kids could see
and be close to these animals was at like a State Fair.
And you alluded to the fair thing earlier.
One is interesting when, when I was still managing the the OR
show at the Minnesota State Fair, people would come and and

(01:09:13):
they wanted to see two things. They wanted to see the Budweiser
Hitch and the minis, you know, and they, that's, they didn't
realize there was a lot of stuffin between because they had no
prior connection to agriculturalin general, but certainly not to
to horses. And so how we get over that
hurdle, Jody, I, I mean, I don'tmean to evade your question, but

(01:09:36):
it's still a work in progress. And we just have to try to pick
the right or at least try the solutions that we think are the
most palatable and the most productive and hopefully it'll
come to us and trial and error. You might say that what Sandy's
tried to do with the AWWA here and not restrict to a breed or

(01:10:00):
to a discipline, but to have an outlet for whatever you have
might want to do with your horseAWWA.
Like she just said, I'll put in a class for anybody.
He'll come and go to the horse show.
And so again, I think it's stilla a trial and error, Jodi and
and these type of discussions are maybe going to help us

(01:10:22):
determine the the best path or realize that this path isn't
what we want. But let's try over here.
Bob Anthony used to tell me whenI rode with him, you know when
you're riding, do something, even if it's wrong.
And there's some, yeah. Yeah, if it's wrong, don't do it
again. Try something else, you know,
and and a lot of that is I thinkapplicable in in what we're

(01:10:45):
trying here. Yeah, sounds like it.
But Jody keeps asking about officiating, and that
officiating piece is so important.
Oh, they'll bless. Especially when we first started
with the Working Western Celebration, who we invited in
as a judge was critical. And the guys that we hired, and

(01:11:06):
there were some women as well, but primarily they were the
older horsemen. I wasn't really concerned about
what card they had, whether it was NRHANRCHA or maybe it was
Shot, but it was the reputation of that person as a horseman to
recognize what they were lookingat and what we were trying to

(01:11:27):
get at. If I started naming him, I would
I would forget a lot of them, but Bozo Rogers did a tremendous
amount of work with us. This is what we did with Shot,
that this is maybe where you want to be going.
Leo was one of the first judges that we brought in as well.
Yeah, and friendship has developed from that.
When Jody's asking about that. I wish I had a better answer for

(01:11:49):
you, Jody, because we know how important that's going to be.
Just remember, you're on the future list, Jody.
Well, and you know, and I don't even need a better answer right
now. It's this is some of the things
that we do is to provoke thoughtand you know what I mean at WWAI
think this is such a great, great concept.
It's such a great idea and it's a great spot that perhaps so you

(01:12:11):
can use some use some opinions of some guys with a great deal
of experience. So hey, you know what?
This is a chance for us to do ita better way.
And that's all I'm saying. It's not I don't want to beat
the officiating to death, although it's very important to
Brian and I both. It jumps up in front of me just
like just like you're, you know,the stuff you're amateurs,
you're more comfortable with your professionals.
I would I would even ask you in the for your long term goals.

(01:12:32):
And you know, if you're talking about professionals, do you see
it if say where we want to look at the professional levels
increasing, do you see yourself actually asking your Arabian
horse trainers that are already in place to grow even larger?
Or would you look at, say someone like myself that had a
barn full of, you know, raining horses basically of all breeds?
And to increase my level of maybe the Arabians or the half

(01:12:57):
Arabians, you know, the professionals are the guys that
kind of, I always say the professionals are the ones that
kind of run the show. I ask that question all the
time, who's got the most stroke?Is it the owner?
Is it the professional? You know who?
And I And so who is it? But from a professional
standpoint, would you look at outside trainers, I mean other
breed trainers to increase theirnumbers?

(01:13:18):
Well, I don't know how much we could increase their numbers,
but I think the fact that we arenot a organization that is a
WWAA is Arabian. But like you or Brian alluded
to, the fact that the Arabians allow half Arabians doesn't
matter what the other half is. And they've done that forever.

(01:13:40):
And them recognizing the fact that let's take what we think
are great qualities of our Arabsand let some other influence
come in and still register them and still have a place for them
to participate. I think it's more a part
officiating is going to be definitely important.
And I think Sandy hit on it thatnot to knock the young judges,

(01:14:02):
but they haven't had they haven't had the experience of
looking at enough things to where they they maybe would be
quite a kid that grew up on a ranch.
Now that might be a different story.
But there are so many judges nowthat are that learned to judge
in a college program. And I have nothing against the
college programs, but that that doesn't expose them to the kind

(01:14:25):
of people we're looking at to evaluate these horses.
Again, I keep going back to the fact I like to see a horse that
I'd like to take home and ride. I'm not necessarily going to
look at a horse that is really pretty and I'd like to take it
home because it's pretty. It look good in my pasture.
I want to take it home and use it.
And and how we develop the AWWAIthink the key.

(01:14:48):
I mentioned this to Sandy a while ago.
The key in the name of the organization is the word
alliance. It doesn't refer to anything
specific. It enlightens the whole
theoretically, the whole industry.
And I like that the alliance in the word, I mean in the name.
Well, you know, and it's a working Western class, so we've

(01:15:11):
got the scorecard, right? We can run one big class.
All the breeds are in there and let's say the paint horses want
to have a High Point Paint Award.
Great, we can do that. And we've got the jackpot money
that we've been building with the Arabians with their stallion
auction and things like that. And we can award the Arabian so

(01:15:32):
we can have an overall champion and then we can divide things
out into those other breeds. And that's how I see the the
future going with that. At the Working Western
Celebration, we would have thosekind of classes.
We had Arabian ranch horse classes before AHA had them in
their rule book and people came and they participated.
They found them to be a lot of fun, but they didn't care

(01:15:55):
whether or not that was in theirofficial show record.
They wanted to come and participate that way.
And that's how we started playing with this idea of, of
having all the breeds so the breed part, they would could
participate in their breed. And then we have what's called
the Supreme Championship, and wedo that in Rancho Marietta so

(01:16:16):
that we have a Supreme ranch trail.
We have a Supreme ranch rail andranch riding.
Yeah, those, those are a lot of fun.
Those remind me of those old horse shows that you're talking
about, and that might be the future of this industry as well.
As these facilities become more and more expensive and the breed
associations feel that crunch, Idon't see why you couldn't do

(01:16:40):
these shows. We did it, you know, and for
sure share the expenses across different organizations staking
out that territory, which I understand coming out of this
50s and 60s and everybody's trying to get their part of the
market and stuff. Well, you know, Leo's alluding
to all the modernization and nowwe're in a post industrial kind

(01:17:02):
of society. Sorry, there's a sociologist
coming out, but things change and we can't operate on that
same model anymore. Bingo.
But back it, you know, in Wisconsin and Minnesota where
you know, the three of three outof four who doesn't belong here,
but there were so many horse clubs.

(01:17:23):
You know, I grew up around, there were two Arabian clubs in
Duluth and one in Rice Lake, andthat's only 90 miles to the
South. And then you had the three in
Minneapolis. That's a lot of horse clubs that
all had a show. Well, we just don't have that
big a base anymore. We don't have that many horses

(01:17:44):
anymore. And I don't understand why you
can't reach across the fence andput on a show together and.
I, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more.
And when you're talking about that base being gone, let me ask
another question here. And I don't want to because
we're talking about all breeds together.
So I don't, I'm not trying to beat the Arabian horse up with
this question. The Arabian breed and the show

(01:18:05):
horses and this part of Hennessybeen a little constrictive mode.
Numbers are down. And Brian and I had this
discussion before we even came on the air and I'd ask about the
Arabians. It seemed like when I was young,
maybe back in the 80s, you know,it's like when you talked about
those air paltry horses, it was huge.
Is it cyclical? Is it going the same direction?
I mean, all our AQHA was down like crazy until the Yellowstone

(01:18:27):
came out and, you know, post COVID and start breeding horses
and, you know, there weren't enough.
And now all of a sudden I'm seeing a lot more horses for
sale, which tells me that you know what, they've read lots of
them. And now the supply is, you know,
greater than the demands. What do you see from from the
numbers wise? Like I said, it's not just
Arabians I'm talking about, but I specifically want to ask that

(01:18:48):
question. So Scottsdale is going on right
now. What do you see for the future
working western if, if the overall breed numbers are
dropping? Do you, do you think we we
haven't we could have an increase in in a spot where the
Western horse could increase as opposed to the breed overall?
Do you know, there's just so many large macro factors going

(01:19:11):
into what's happening with all of the breeds right now?
And I'm not so sure that I wouldwant to return to the 1980s and
the horse industry. And I'll talk from the Arabian
perspective because I worked on a large Arabian breeding farm in
Minnesota, and Minnesota was oneof the hot areas for Arabian

(01:19:31):
breeding. And so many horses were produced
to get that one special stallionthat you were going to take to
Scottsdale. So what happens?
And I'll just use easy numbers, you got 10 babies and only one
is special. What do you do with the other
nine? And times change.
And we have the social license to operate, which I know a lot

(01:19:53):
of people cringe at that, but there's some good stuff coming
out of that as well because you are responsible for that life
that you put on this earth. And so having fewer horses I
don't see as a bad thing becauseI see the horses that we do have
as being wanted and bred for something and used for

(01:20:14):
something. And maybe they're not all level
four horses, but gosh, they makegood rookie horses.
Or I've seen quite a few of themat my County Fair, and that's
not a bad thing as long as they all get a job.
So do I see us returning to something like in the 90s?
I hope not. What a powerful statement that
well, and I hear you. Yeah, yes, good for you.

(01:20:38):
But I would take it one more step because I think and you're
on it like 100%. And all we'd have to do, you're
already doing it with amateurs, amateur owners and amateur
riders. You're allowing them to use that
same horse in different formats.If we dealt with ownership and

(01:20:59):
not breeding, numbers might be the healthiest thing for all of
us. I think your statement is
extremely powerful. It's not about volume of horses,
it's about having horses being readily available to do for more
people. And there lies the magical
Kingdom. Yes, and I think you already got

(01:21:20):
it. And the issue's going to be how
do you keep the playing field fair?
Because that's what you're goingto get into.
Should youth and amateurs be able to borrow horses?
I'm using loose terms. The answer's yes.
What do you have to do? Keep the entry per playing field
fair, which is about riders skill and talent based on

(01:21:44):
whatever horse that are mounted.And Jody's got an interesting
piece which is on a handicappingcomponent because once horses
are broke, we know where that horses capability is, but now it
has to match up with a rider. And that's the magical piece on
keeping a competitive playing field there.
And could you do that and managethat?

(01:22:06):
And does it move over time? The answer is yes, but that
could be done, which is exactly what you're talking about.
Sandy's good for you. Way, way good.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, we have come to the conclusion of
the first one in a series, the Arabian Working Western
Alliance. But I got a feeling we're going

(01:22:27):
to go farther than just the Arabians, so.
Oh boy. We're just going to be taking
the Arabians with us while we go.
It's been a pleasure, Leo. Sandy, thank you both very much.
It's been an absolute pleasure to be able to talk about the
insights of the industry, but talking about your alliance, the
thing that you guys have created, what you're doing, I

(01:22:47):
think it's going to be fascinating to see where you can
go with it, and we'd love to help you push along the way.
We'll have all the contact stuffin place, but
www.arabianworkingwestern.com istheir website.
They're up. The contact info is there, their
programs are there. We'll put it in as well.

(01:23:09):
Arabian working, western.com. Stick with us because we got
three more episodes coming this year.
It's going to be a lot of fun. So until next time, enjoy the
ride. Thank you both.
Thank you. Yep, until next time, stay in
the middle. Thank you so much for riding
along with us today. Visit arabianworkingwestern.com

(01:23:31):
to learn about their incentives and programs and get in touch
with leaders affecting our industry that we love so much.
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(01:23:52):
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