AWWA The Ranch Challenge Ep38

Ranch Riding is the newest discipline to emerge in the western horse show world. Join us as we discuss the AWWA and WWA as they are focused on the Arabian Western horse and the newest open to all breed discipline, the Western Working Alliance.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Welcome to The Cowboy Office Show where you'll experience
expert analysis and epic discussion on key pillars of the
equine industry including sports, business, hobby and the
horse lifestyle. Your Co hosts are Jodi Brainerd
and Brian Dyker, industry veterans with over 120 years
combined living the cowboy lifestyle.
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(00:33):
questions, and create change. We'll keep riding for you as
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(00:54):
today's show. Hello horse World.
The working western lifestyle leads to working western
disciplines in competition, raining, cutting, cow horse and
now more recently ranch riding. One of the newest organizations
to enter the equine competition industry is the Arabian Working

(01:17):
Western Alliance with their Ranch Challenge.
This event has a unique perspective to ranch riding with
an updated method of scoring thetrue working Western ranch
horse. Today in the second episode of
the four part series, we continue to explore the AWWA in
the development of the ranch challenge.

(01:37):
Welcome to the cowboy office. I'm Brian.
And I'm Jodie. Today we have one of the
founding board members of the Arabian Western Working Alliance
with us. Let me welcome my longtime
colleague and friend, Leo for a Leo has been an AQHA judge for
44 years. Enter HA judge for 38 years.
He has also an approved judge for the NRCHA and the Working

(02:01):
Western Division of the Arabian Horse Association.
Leo, it seems like I've known you forever.
I hate to say I'm that old. It's been a great friendship
over the years. You have my respect.
Welcome. Thank you.
Thank both of you. This is like 3 old guys sitting
around talking. I guess that's what it's going
to turn out to be, isn't it? I appreciate the opportunity and

(02:22):
your interest in in ranch rioting, ranch classes in
general. All three of us know that it's a
a booming part of the equine industry and I'm glad to be here
and we can visit with it, visit with each other about it.
We're going to spend our time onthis episode exploring and
discussing the officiating options along with the future

(02:44):
opportunities for this new development called the AWWA.
I'm not just bring that up real quick.
You can also find it on the web at Arabian Working western.com.
But first, let's talk about the ranch challenge.
The Ranch Challenge is a big deal to the AWWA.
It's offered at the Arabian and Half Arabian Nationals in Tulsa

(03:08):
in October. Well, the AWWA is a group that
is focusing on the working western type of animal.
The Arabians have been known fora long time as the, I think they
call it living art. You know, the halter horse
people are always focused on, but the Arabian, the Western

(03:31):
Arabian horse is coming into itsown.
And and this the AWWA is a specialty group, you might say,
similar to the Western pleasure people in the Arab industry, the
hunter people in the Arab industry and the saddle seat
people in the in the Arab industry each have their own

(03:54):
group and have a a premier classor classes at the World Show to
focus on their area. The AWWA was developed to bring
that same type of focus to the Western horses and it began with
the working western class calledthe ranch challenge.

(04:17):
And this is a a pattern class that is designed to spotlight
the working western or the just the western portion of the Arab
industry. And so that's what we're trying
to do with the AWWA is bring some focus.
And then as a result to have horses that are bred to do these

(04:41):
type of events seems to have gotten a nice start.
A lot of people have been interested.
We're hoping to get it to develop and grow.
To how long has it been happening?
It's been about three years now.The the first year we did it, we
designed a course. People talk about a ranch

(05:02):
riding, for instance. Ranch riding is a class that has
a specific pattern. Several of the organizations or
associations have a rule book with with the patterns in it
that can be used. The the working Western division
that has the ranch challenge tried to do this in a little

(05:24):
different way. We've tried to make it a a
practical application of what a horses used on a ranch would do.
And the idea, at least personally for me is to having a
horse that is accustomed to doing things that lend
themselves to work to a working ranch.

(05:46):
There are there are some workingranches that strictly operate
with Arabian horses. So there's no reason that it
couldn't happen. But the development of of this
portion that we're trying to do is helping owners and breeders
try to raise them like we try toraise rainers or cutters and
these Arabian horses that aren'tdo it all the time, but aren't

(06:07):
known for it. This is to shed some light on
them and hopefully get some interest going that with the
Breeders, for instance, and havea unique situation where they
can they a portion of their showis half Arabian.
They get recognition for crossing Arabians with other

(06:28):
breeds. A lot of them are quarter horses
to develop 1/2 Arab and they have classes and functions at
their shows for the the half Arab group.
And these are the horses for a while.
As you know, Jody, the Arab Raining Futurity got really,
really big because there were a number of reigning supporters

(06:50):
that were supported that were contributing prize money to
this. And the a lot of the NRHA
trainers were out hunting for some more Arabs, purebred or
half Arabs to compete because itwas pretty lucrative, right?
Remember it well that time. That's a great point.
And obviously we knew this show was coming.
And so you write down some questions and I'm one of the

(07:11):
questions I have, you know, since I've trained them, you
know, most of all of us, you know, Brian and I would we have
a chance to ride those Arabians and we had some half Arabs and
and had some really nice ones tothe Arabian horse.
When we were younger and we're growing up, there were always
about two things #1 the halter horse guys, which is about the
look and then the endurance partabout that thing.
You know, I mean those horses, what you know, I mean, if they

(07:31):
endurance race, which was a hugething, you know, it was always
an Arabian that won that becausethose could go forever.
But with the half Arab on the incentives that they've had, you
know, performances now seeming to be at the tip of that.
So that halter thing isn't thereanymore or not maybe not as
strong as it was at one point. I don't want to say that cuz I
don't know about it. Are you seeing now?

(07:53):
And I, I know that I don't want to pin you down as an expert on
the Arabian association cuz I know you're a raining judge and
you do all this kind of stuff. But is that swing even greater
now towards that performance from the Arabian standpoint than
it used to be more towards that working class?
Then then say just the, you know, the saddle horse or the
halter horse, that kind of a thing where it, where it's about

(08:14):
the show and about the look. Are are we seeing more of that
influence coming into the Arabian Association now in your
opinion? No question some of the largest
classes at the national show thelast few years have been the
working western or the ranch type classes.
People I think of have felt thatit was comfort level for them to

(08:37):
feel like they could compete there, enjoy what they're doing
and, and have a chance to to geta prize.
And so yes, it's, I think any ofthe breeds that are quarter
horse or, or paints or they've the ranch type classes have
boomed in the last number of years and the Arabians, I've

(08:57):
experienced the same thing. And and what about, I know that
the Arabian reigning Scottsdale and the Nationals had a pretty
strong growth spot for a while. Is that still as strong and got
the demand that it had 10 years ago or is that kind of leveled

(09:20):
off? It's definitely leveled off,
maybe, maybe even worse than leveled off.
It's probably dropped again. I've judged the Arabian Reigning
Futurity at Scottsdale a couple different times.
In the first time I did it, it was really a nice event.
There was 5 judges and the entries have dropped to the

(09:42):
point where now I think the lasttime I did it was a three judge
system because of the economics of a couple more judges and so
forth. So that the glory days of the
Arabian reigning are certainly not what they were some years
ago. And do you have a factor what
would contribute to the constriction of that since they
had purse money they had they had those parts of it.

(10:06):
So if it's constricting, it wasn't just the the lack of
first money, is that correct? I think that was a driving
force. But yeah, there were some other
factors that people kind of lostinterest.
A lot of the of the NRHA trainers, it was hard to find
some really nice purebred, pure,pure bloods and half Arabs.

(10:30):
And it got to the point where the guys had the dominant NRHA
trainers didn't have the incentive to hunt for those kind
of horses that they did at one time.
Which would be driven off curse money not being strong enough to
put the effort in. Is that correct?
That's that was as a not doing it myself.

(10:52):
That's my observation though. Yes, I think you're.
And ranch riding then, because this would be true across all of
the breed orgs, ranch riding is stepped into the void of what
the consumer was wanting for basically our lifetime because
horse showing got a little bit out of control with the fashion
and all of the components and a lot of individual preferences as

(11:17):
opposed to objective officiating.
And so ranch riding has stepped into that void in the last 15
years upon its development. And now we're seeing that part
right, am I right? And so you're seeing that also
true at the Arabian and half Arabian.
Yes, the, the ranch classes themselves, there's, you know,

(11:41):
in the AQHA, there's a ranching committee, even that in the
committee's structure of AQHA and the duplication or the isn't
exactly a duplication, but the ranch classes are trying to fall
back on the history of horses and ranching.
And so the, the fashion you talked about the glitz and the

(12:05):
glamour, a lot of that, you know, it was crazy just what you
had to do just to look right when you went in the class.
Well, the ranch classes have brought that back down to earth,
so to speak. And so the idea that the, it was
prohibitive for somebody to get started kind of backed up to
where they, they, they felt comfortable.
You know, everything's about a comfort level.

(12:26):
You'll start something or try something if you can try at your
comfort level and the fact that you didn't need quite as much to
get started. The athletic ability of the
horses is of course has always been important, but the ranch
type classes didn't require the preparation that Arraigner or a
cutter or a cow horse would haveto do to get into the ring.

(12:48):
And so the ranch classes have been more affordable and
comfortable for people to get started.
That's where the, the AWWA RanchChallenge is a function or an
event that we're trying to pattern somewhat after the, the
NRHARNRCHA where the, but it's much more economical, the

(13:12):
enrollment fee for a not NRCJNNRBC.
I'm sorry, I got too many letters in my head here.
The NRBC. And so they have a an incentive
program that we're trying to getgoing where you can nominate A
stallion for a abdominal amount of money and so forth.

(13:33):
I was going to bring that. So you are creating funds that
will pay prize money at the Ranch Challenge, which is at the
Nationals for AWWA. Is that correct?
Correct. And so those funds are gathering
overtime very similar to the rest of us in the discipline
world, right? So it's it's not like at the

(13:55):
last minute the funds aren't there because everybody knows
for the most part all year, right?
There, that's right, Yeah. And there have been some
breeders, Arabian breeders, who have enjoyed what they've seen
and are have come up with some sponsorship money too that can
be incorporated into this. It's prize money.

(14:17):
So it it gets to be a little more of a financial reward than
ever had been previously. Which I would interpret as being
a high incentive function. When you then talk about
breeding horses, buying horses, want to go play, those are all
primary incentives of what is going to gather up the

(14:40):
exhibitors, right? We think so.
We hope so. All three of us know that in the
cutters and in the reigning horses and in the cow horses,
there are certain bloodlines that have become premier in
those industries. And hopefully the Arabians
people will see that the you canbreed for these ranch horses.

(15:00):
You can you can get a bloodline that is shown some dominance in
the ranch classes and as a result in enhances the breeding
programs and the selling of young horses with when there's
certain pedigrees involved in conversation.
I think that's great, great step.
And when we're talking about this, about this Western working

(15:23):
horse and the popularity both in, you know, with the Arabian
horse association, AQHAAPHA, allthe breeds associations.
It's like, and I, you know, I, Iwent to, to one of the lazy E
last year with Amy with my wife and she competed in the rainy
part of it, But we had the opportunity to watch some of
these, you know, the stock course of Texas and some of
these other associations. And they, they have their

(15:43):
outdoor trail courses and they are, I mean those working
western courses and inside it. And it was all new to me because
I'd never seen it before, but itwas so much fun and the people
were enjoying themselves so much.
And it's kind of like if you're trainer Rainer or you've got
that cow horse or a cutter, thatprofessional help is needed all

(16:04):
the time. And I'm not saying that it's not
needed in this also because it is.
But if if I were an amateur rider and I knew how to ride and
I had a nice little 4 year old gilding and I thought, you know
what? If I can teach him to side pass
and I can teach him to get to the mailbox and I can get to the
gate and I can drag the log and I, you know, all those things I
get to do by myself. And, and that is rewarding in

(16:24):
itself when I get to go ride my horse every single day and then
I can go compete. So I don't have to be at that
level where, where I have to, tobe at that trainers and I have
to go to that show with an extra15 or 20 horses.
I mean, I can, I could probably get by doing this myself.
And I think that's a great incentive for for, you know,
people that don't have a breeding program that they just

(16:45):
have a horse or two and enjoy riding.
So I, I can see where this couldgo, pay big dividends when
people think that maybe we can get a little check at the same
time instead of just winning a ribbon, maybe I'd get my stall
paid for. So wow.
It's yeah, I think it's, I thinkit's great.
Really do. Or gas money in today's time.
And yes, tell us about the age. Is there an age limitation on

(17:08):
the ranch challenge? Can any age horse play at this?
Point It's designed for the younger horses.
There's purses within the purse,you might say the horses that
are generally thought of to be in the branch challenge will be
by subscribe stallions. They owners can nominate.

(17:30):
You might say the foals even before they're born again for
for nominal fees and and then they will will compete at the
nationals in the fall. There is a new in 2025.
There's a 5 year old section only in it for incentive fund 5
year olds, and due to the fact that we don't have so many of

(17:52):
those available yet, since the program is fairly new, the
incentive fund horses old enoughto compete, we're leaving it as
an open class. And so as more horses that are
eligible for the challenge become available, then we may be
able to categorize these classesa little bit, define them, let's

(18:14):
say in a, in a more specific way.
But right now it's it's an open class that will be hopefully
will be well received. I hear you.
So you got some new stuff comingfor 25 which is this 5 year old
section. But then talk about the
officiating component because I'm assuming you have to be

(18:35):
following strict USEFAHA show rules.
Is that correct? And not entirely, since this is
not an AHA class, then it is nota USEF either.
It's a a separate specialty within the AHA.

(18:56):
And so we're at this point, the idea of the officiating is going
to be more customary for the based on some of the breed
organizations. My thoughts on this as the ranch
riding, there's patterns in the rule book in the ranch riding
classes. You pick one of those patterns,

(19:16):
it's announced in the show program or you know when you
make your entries, you know whatit's going to be.
The ranch challenge will be a situation where the obstacles or
things that the horses have to negotiate that that the AWWA
came up with for this specific class.
So we're trying to simulate ranch work as much as possible.

(19:42):
We've got to run. Let I think there's a good spot.
Let's play this run. And then Leo, you kind of
narrate through including how those officials are marking it
as it goes on. But this is the 2023 winner of
the Ranch Challenge. So let's take a peek, and you'll

(20:03):
have to tell us who it is. Well, this, this gentleman, as I
recall, is he is actually an amateur and he he won the thing.
The the idea of these horses being able to negotiate
obstacles, you might say is important.

(20:24):
But when the first year that we had this I, I sat with the
judges and tried to explain to them that, you know, here,
here's a horse loping around there.
Now is that the kind of horse you'd want to get on and take
out and ride in in on a ranch and get some work done.
So how that horse gets from one place to another to me as is

(20:46):
important as what they do when they get to an obstacle and how
do they negotiate it. One of the years, for instance,
we had a, a rope on a lariat, rope on a stand and the horses
would come up. And this is all prescribed, you
know, pattern. Right.

(21:08):
It's prescribed ahead of time, but it's it's it's made at the
event. It's not sitting in a rule book.
Exactly, exactly. And this is the obstacle that we
actually reviewed in the first episode where you talked about
and horses got to pick his way through it.
Right. It's the the rider's
responsibility to get the horse ready and get him to the show.

(21:30):
But that's an obstacle right there where there were several
pieces of what you might call firewood logs and some some
pumpkins and things around it. And yeah, here comes the roping
portion right here. You got to pick up the lariat.
Rope a dummy. Yeah, put it back.
But but this is not a roping exercise this to you know, that

(21:52):
we've instructed the judges at this point, you know, I don't
care if they if they catch the dummy or not.
In fact, I hope they don't because if they do, then I got
to come out and take the rope off and recoil it.
But but I'm right now I'm watching that horse and, and
he's allowing that rider to rope.
He isn't, he's he's a partner with the rider in in that and

(22:17):
that. Those are the kind of little
things that I think to me are very important.
He didn't catch, but he recoiledthe rope.
He went back thankfully and, andhung it back up.
But but it's about how the horsereacts to the, the various
things that are in the arena. Those, those little logs, you
know, it wasn't like you a jigsaw puzzle where you had to

(22:39):
sneak through it, but it, it wasan idea that these horses were
working with the rider. Rider, just like in in a
reigning definition, you know it's the rider and and can
dictate to the horse. But you don't want people to
know you're dictating the horse.You know you want it to look
like you and the horse are working together.

(23:00):
Right, right. And this is, I think it's coming
close to the end of the run, yeah.
As I said to me, I emphasize a lot on how you get from one of
these obstacles to another is equally or maybe more important
than how you actually do what you do at the obstacle.

(23:22):
It's like the hunters, the how the hunter gets from one fence
to another is is being judged aswell as how they get over the
fence. And so the ranch work is the
same way. I, I see great, I see great,
great potential for it. And I think it's, I think it's
way fun. I think talking about the
officiating here in a minute will be, even, will be even more

(23:45):
fun. But as I, as I, as I watch it go
down, it's one of those things that, you know, and nobody knows
it better than than myself. And you know, mid 60s now.
And there's a huge difference between that 50 year old age and
a mid 60 age where you lose that, you lose that sense of
timing and you lose that balance.
And it's just like, it doesn't matter how hard you work at it,
it's just part of it. But this is an event that I can

(24:08):
be 75 years old and I can go compete in it.
I'm I, I probably can't go down the fence anymore at that age
unless I'm Doug Williamson or something like that.
But I mean Doug Williams. But I mean, it's like it's a one
of those guys that this is an event that's friendly, it's user
friendly. And I, I think that's just
fantastic. Well, it's, it's kind of meant,

(24:28):
not kind of, it's meant to be a throwback to when we were young.
Jody, my first serious job in the horse business was on a
ranch in New Mexico. And your dad and Jimmy Randall's
were, were good friends when, when I was on the ranch.
Part of my job, I think I alluded to this somewhat in our
first broadcast or telecast, part of my, one of my jobs was

(24:51):
starting the 2 year olds. Well, he gave me a week or so or
a number of days in a pen by thebarn.
And then after that, I had to goout and check cattle if they
were sick, you know, check the windmills, make sure they were
pumping water, make sure they let the liquid feeders were were
full. And I did it on these two year

(25:13):
olds. I've said many times and I'll
say it again, I think those two year olds taught me more than I
taught them. But you, you were able to use
these horses. And we, we went to horse shows
on the weekend, but we didn't have any show horses.
We had the horses we rode all week, clean them up, flip their
whiskers and put them in the trailer.
Went to the horse show on Mondaymorning.

(25:34):
We went back to work on them. Now there isn't the the working
ranch situation that there was back in the years I'm talking
about, but but that's it in my mind.
That's what we're trying to duplicate here.
We're trying to duplicate horsesthat work with the rider to get
a job done. It and that brings me to the, to
the issue it, it, it can be problematic at best to turn a

(25:58):
job that the horses do into a horse show class.
But I look at it when I'm judging or when I'm coaching
some judges to how to work with this is keep that in mind.
You know, we're, we're trying toduplicate.
Going over some logs isn't part of a ranch work, but to get from

(26:19):
where the ranch starts to where the ranch work is, you might
have to go over logs. So it's a, we think of it as a
more hopefully a more complete horse that that helps you as
much as you help it. Sure.
Well, I, I think one of the interesting points both you
bring up is the mere fact 1A what a great way of getting your

(26:42):
horses broke to the riders and owners being able to practice
and do stuff on a daily basis ontheir own without needing, so to
speak, professional guidance andprofessional programs every
minute of every day. Right.
Which I would see that as a veryattractive kind of feature

(27:04):
because when you put these things together, it wasn't
whether or not you did or didn'trope the dummy.
It was merely can you and your horse go grab the rope, try to
snag something and go put it back?
That's that's the moral of that maneuver, correct?
Totally. Yeah.
So quite stimulating all the wayaround.

(27:25):
Very attractive to a do an exhibitor in a pool and I would
say it's probably got the potential to be more attractive
than some of the pattern functions that we're seeing in
the rule books of breeds talk about.
So when you talk to and work with officials, I think it's
very cool that you have a very dynamic set of classes and an

(27:49):
organization inside a regulated event.
AJ and USCF, but is not part of that regulation.
That's fascinating in itself andI give you all credit and kudos
for doing that. Everybody top down, side to
side. But what are you telling?
What are the officials doing? What are the officials doing

(28:11):
while that horse is going through the pattern?
Is it a scoring system? Is it numerical or is it you
just place your top ten horses on a card like other class
classes? What is it?
Well, there is a scoring system.We're we're still not still, but
the ultimate scoring system is still, so you might say in

(28:32):
development good. Right now we use the plus 1 1/2
to -1 1/2 and try to evaluate what the horse did, negotiating
something that's in front of them.
And what I would ultimately liketo see is minimize the number of
penalties and be able to reward a horse that is working with the

(28:56):
rider and looks focused on the job.
And it's sort of like, I know you will get into it here as far
as judging and officiating, but I would like this class to be
one that we could minimize the penalties and evaluate each
thing that they do and kind of grade it.

(29:16):
And then it becomes mathematical.
I think at the end, because everybody would like that show
is likes to look at a score sheet and determine where
they're strong points were and where their weak points were.
And hopefully we can still accomplish that.
Right. So you're talking about the
entire program still being in development.
I hear you. Which means you're developing

(29:39):
and writing your own rules year to year, right?
Yes, in essence, that's right. So minimizing penalties should
be easy because you got to just not write it down if you don't
want. That's point 1.2 would be hang
on, I don't know these answers. I'm asking if you want the

(30:00):
positive side of the scale, you could shift that scale.
Do you need it to be equal from the bottom to the top?
No, you don't need to. So if you want it to be
emphasized on the top side, you could maybe make it only go to
minus half and take it up to +2 on half point increments as far

(30:20):
as the scale for judges to work on.
But what that does is force themto be on the positive side as
opposed to what our senses are, which is negative is easy to
find excellence is hard to find.You're.
Right. I, I was well, well, Chris
Benedict, who's in charge of judges and stewards for AQHA was

(30:42):
here in Scottsdale for the Sun Circuit and I was visiting with
him a little bit. And one thing that you guys are
both unaware of, I'm sure the AQHA roping classes have been
changed to the scale is from a +3 to a -, 3.
And it allows for more evaluation of what the horse did

(31:07):
or didn't do and less concern about documenting the wrong
things they did. And I think that has some merit.
Now Chris wasn't as as excited about it as I was.
I'm, I've still got some visiting to do with other
people, but to bring up another individual that you both know is
Bill Inc from California. Bill is the director of judges

(31:31):
for NRCHA. And Bill has, if you go to one
of Bill's seminars, he always talks about the fact that don't
hunt for a penalty when you're watching these horses work, but
if something happened that didn't look right, that's going
to affect the maneuver. So deal with it as much as you
can in the maneuver and don't beso upset on how how wrong did

(31:56):
they do it. Be a little more positive.
And I know Brian, you've always been a one to talk about the
positive I think too. And so the curious thing for me
with AQHA, for instance, is ranch riding.
The class ranch riding was the first ranch class to go into the
AQHA rule. But since then, there's been

(32:17):
Ranch trail has come along well in the original rules to and
they're the same to this day. There's two sentences in the in
the rules. If you read ranch riding rules
and it says there's no penalty for ticking or hitting a log
when you when you go over it, you deal with it in the maneuver
score. There is no penalty for over or

(32:39):
underspinning if you're requiredto turn your horse around, deal
with it in the maneuver score. And I would like to see that be
more of the sentiment of judgingthese horses then, oh, wait a
minute, There's it was that 1/2 point penalty or one point
penalty, You know, and, and you know, and I'm not putting judges
down. I mean, I've been doing it a
long time, but but some of thesejudges that aren't as confident,

(33:03):
you know, they would like to seea numerical value on the on the
score sheet that allows them to point out where somebody did it
wrong and it justifies what they've done.
And and I'd like to see us be more judges and less book.
Understood. Jody, did you have something?

(33:24):
Yeah. I mean, you know, all of all of
this is interesting. And I think that and especially,
like I said, I don't want to keep, I don't want to stay with
the Arabs because we can generally talk about this, about
this event itself. And Brian and I have had
extensive discussion about judging because it's a passion
for us, Leo. And you know how much we have a
modified system for the for the reigning that that we feel like

(33:46):
at some point in time is going to pay great dividends for the
reigning horse itself. And you know, we talked about
the objective and subjective decisions and we talked about
judging. We talked about officiating.
And you know, we've done some background work with the
National Football League officiating.
And you've heard me say probably5000 times that the answer is

(34:06):
always in the middle. And I'm not sure I, I would like
an opinion from you guys on thisone too.
But you know, when, when we're dealing with horses, there's a
lot of that stuff we talked about that benefit of the doubt
thing. You know, Brian, and I've had
this discussion in the past and penalty application, we feel
like it's absolute. It either happened or didn't.
So you can eliminate benefit of the doubt penalty applications,

(34:27):
figure out a way to make it yes or no.
And I think that helps a great deal.
But when we're judging horses and a depending on the event or
depending on the class, what we're doing there, there is when
you talked about the Arabian being the living art, you know,

(34:49):
I mean a great reigning horse and a great cow horse, or even
in this event itself, there is alittle bit of art involved in
that. It's kind of like a if, if
you've ever seen the Mexicans rope, I mean, they're so
intricate about it. They all catch, but it's how
they catch. It's then it's an art form when
they rope. So with the horses, when we

(35:09):
judge them, we set the standardsand we say these are your plus
hams, these are your plus ones, These are your, this is ABS, you
know, this is the this penalty is absolute.
This is what happens. But is not there a part of that
officiating and judging togetherthe answer in the middle there
somewhere that you have to be able to use a little bit of

(35:30):
expression when you find the separation of that really of
those two really great horses. Brian told me the other day he
was lucky enough I I was jealousas hell when he got to judge
Boomerick when he won the Futurity.
And at that time, that was that was a revolutionary run.
I mean, that was like, it was like nobody ever seen that.

(35:50):
And I'm like, holy crap, I wouldhave loved to have been in the
chair for that. But that was an art form at that
time. Not just do you understand what
I'm saying a little bit, guys? I mean, is that, you know, I'm
sure, I know we have to be objective and I know that we
have to say this is how we need to officiate.
But there's a little bit of thatthat we have to say, you know,

(36:11):
Brian, you were like, he was a winner on my card all day long.
And not just because he was physical, but because he was
special. Yeah, special degree of
difficulty, all the above. It was a it was an industry
changing function, what we were talking about.
And that's true if you looked over history, because that was
the the joining of the East Coast and West Coast style of

(36:32):
stock horse. So it was a very logical step
and Boomer Neck and Brett's showing that year, they just
dominated. Yes.
And that was a great piece of conversation, I would tell you.
And yes, you and I continue to do a lot of research.
But that's why I bring it up because what AWWA is doing now

(36:54):
as they continue to develop and stimulate the western side of
the Arabian horse in modern time.
The answer to what you're talking about, Jodie, I'm going
to say it this way. Do we want experts, opinions or
viewpoints or expertise in decision making?

(37:16):
The answer is yes. And generally more experts comes
out with a better ultimate decision.
The real answer is how do we put, when we use multiple judge
systems, how do we put those expert decisions together to
come out with one decision? That's the answer.

(37:36):
And so with, and I'm going to just use raining as the example
because we still drop high and low and add the three in the
middle. And the question then would
come, is that the best culmination of five experts
around the entire arena and there is no hiding and raining.

(37:58):
That's the real question. And can that be used in a more
advanced form in today's time? I would then tell you the answer
is yes, it can. That's where that comes into
play. It's not trying to make 5
officials see everything you. Jon Snowblind talks about the
connection between the heart. The art form of officiating is

(38:21):
connecting the heart and the mind.
Because when it's that good, when you see a horse that you
want to saddle up and go ride, you know, Leo, the one you want
to take home, when they're that good, they move you.
And so when they move you, how do you then put that into an
educated decision on how good something is?

(38:43):
I would tell you in today's time, we lean on the benefit of
the doubt and maneuver evaluations way too much.
And what we lean on it on is notdoing, not awarding the movement
when we're moved that excellencethat we talk ourselves out of
it. And I can tell you that in the
reigning world, because the amount of plus ones that are now

(39:06):
being used is significantly higher than it was 10 years ago,
but they're being pushed to findand mark plus 1 1/2.
And the benefit of the doubt keeps them from doing it.
I just say that in a practical and a plural sense.
But that's where the real question is, how do you take a
multiple group of experts and then put them in an objective

(39:29):
system to come out with one decision that is truly
determining competition in today?
I think it's fascinating when you look at NFL, Jody, you've
done a lot of research in the officiating side of the NFL.
But if you see the list of rule changes that the NFL is
proposing in the offseason rightnow, which is based on last, and

(39:51):
one of them is how they measure first ounce, and they've been
doing it with the manual chain and flag forever, Well, guess
what that's going to change nextseason.
They're going to use technology because now they're down to
inches. OK, Well, where are we when we
talk about? And that's what you were talking
about, Leo, you know. Taking a rope horse going to

(40:15):
three because they want more dimensions of quality.
I would have told you my reflex on you want your judges to mark
on the positive, move your scaleto the positive because that
negative, you don't need it as much and it's going to take care
of itself. So it's a logical spot in how do

(40:36):
you use an objective decision across the competition.
That's the point. I know that was lengthy.
Well, no, but it, it's interesting when you stated that
the first time, it's something that had not occurred to me and
I'm going to be thinking about this.
But, but you're right, if you, if you are encouraged to be more

(40:56):
positive, one way to do it is toeliminate some of the negative.
And I think I judged yesterday morning actually IEA
Interscholastic Equestrian Association show for here in
town and they're getting some riders qualified to go to the
regionals and whatever. When I've judged some of these

(41:19):
ranch classes, I've had much less trouble getting higher
scores because when I see something that maybe not all
aspects of it are are good, But when I see something that that
as you said, moves me, it it to me, it's easy to to to get get
more positive with them. But the mechanics of it is

(41:41):
another situation. But what you brought up about
eliminating some of that negative range that you can go
to wood, wood forest people to be a little more positive and a
little more encouraging. I think it's really interesting
when we talk about the officiating part of this thing
too. And, and you know, Brian, it's
when you talk about the NFL and the, and the new rule changes.

(42:01):
I mean, the kind of the one thing that's funny about the
NFL, we're not funny about it, but every single thing in the
National Football League is in some way, shape or form based on
what's best for the audience, right?
I mean, because it's all about money.
They have profit sharing with throughout the league, you know,

(42:22):
with the NFL owners and they, you know, it, this thing's all
about money. When they have a rule change,
they figure out it's how is it going to be?
How's it best going to suit the viewing audience, the millions
of people that find the NFL great?
And I think with officiating in an event like this, I think it'd
be fantastic for a viewing audience.
I think it would be like we could you could take this just

(42:45):
like a raining and you could make this something really,
really easy for an audience to understand.
I mean, wouldn't it be great if they had a live score system
when that horse went by the event of something flash that
said, you know, plus 1 1/2 and or +3 as it live as it happened.
I don't know how you could make it work, but I mean, I would
think that that would be that would be something that, you
know, audience engagement for meis paramount.

(43:06):
I always we talk about that withthe Rainers.
It's like we want the audience watching and what greater way to
create money than to have more people want to watch you.
So I think the officiating is can be a big part of that too.
So we have to figure out a way to make it work.
I agree with you and tell me, Leo, are you finding the ranch
challenge to be? Audience stimulating.

(43:29):
In the limited time we've had itavailable at the Arab National
Show, it's gotten extremely stimulating to the audience.
I haven't hadn't been prior to that to a lot of Arabian shows,
but they have a tendency to sit on their hands.
Well, this Ranch Challenge classwas like going to the NRHA
Futurity finals. People are hooting and hollering

(43:50):
and carrying on and that's all spontaneous.
There's no sign up there that says applause.
You know, they just they, they see things they're interested
in. It reminds me of you can go on
the Internet and watch these super baseball plays, you know,
and the umpires in baseball or is a guy out or isn't he right?
But you watch some of these exciting double plays where

(44:13):
somebody throws it to the secondbaseman from their back and he
double S it up over on 1st and, and people go crazy in the
stands, you know, So what they see it didn't affect the, the
score of the I mean, it might have affected the score, but it
was because did they get somebody out or didn't they?
But when it when some, you know,bizarre things happen and they

(44:35):
still pull off a double play, that's pretty exciting.
I would think because you guys can get creative with your
courses, you could create courses that are doing two
things at once, not only providing something very nice
for an audience, but truly challenging the working Western

(44:55):
skill between horse and rider, right?
I mean, we just saw it in the kind of dimension that you
provided in the 23 championship,but you can get very creative in
that space. I think Jody brings up a heck of
a point because all of us in today's time, all of us, and
we're dead guilty of this. We are not presenting our

(45:18):
competitive product to the audience in an engaging way yet.
The American Performance Horsemen, the Run for the
Million, the Fraternity, the Derby, all the NRB, all of them,
they're not there yet. They're getting there.
It's very slow. The streaming is a piece.
All that's doing is allowing us to live in the live space

(45:43):
without being there on site. But the way we present it is not
engaging to the audience. And I think Jodie's point with
the NFL is huge. Why does the NFL address those
types of rule changes? Yes, it's about money.
And where's the money coming from a very large fan base.
And when the fans don't agree with officiating, that's when

(46:05):
everybody kind of goes, we got to figure this stuff out, which
is about accuracy of of efficiency, how ACC.
It's not about being perfect. It's about they, the fans want
it to be fair and equal and theywant the best out of the
officiating at the same time thecompetitors are doing.
We struggle there as a sport because we're kicking the tail

(46:29):
out of the officials while the horses and the riders, it's
still long days, but they've gota lot more time to manage their
downtime. Officials don't.
We're in the 12 to 15 hours a day for day after day after day,
and anybody in the intellectual space will tell you what we're

(46:50):
asking out of officials is actually more than achievable.
I just. No question.
No, I I agree 100%. You know, that's the the the
show itself is a huge part of itand and great officiating even
makes it better. I mean, you don't have to look

(47:10):
any further than the Denver freestyle, which is good.
Been going on for how long, Brian?
I mean. 20 plus years. Sold out show.
Every. Year, I mean, they sold out.
Is the officiating perfect? They're all heck no, because
freestyle is very difficult to judge, but people love to watch
it and in that situation and they make a big production and

(47:30):
I'm showing it and I've judged it.
And it's like, you know, they'remaking introductions to the
rider and the, you know, I mean,the lights and the, it's just a
great show and people love to see it.
And we need to bring that to us.And I mean, you know, I guess
it's something that simple. They've made work.
We can do it too, and with good officiating.

(47:52):
Yes, yes. And that's the part that we were
talking about because as you guys are developing, you got an
opportunity that's much easier than everybody else changing
what you have and what the standard is in the horse show
industry. That's much harder to change
then what you guys are doing with the AWWA.
And then I believe the O and youcan tell us AWWA is also

(48:19):
precipitating the development ofanother level of working
Western, which is the WWA, correct, correct.
So fill us in just a touch. Well, the the AWWA was developed
by Sandy Worley, who was in the Arab industry for for a number

(48:41):
of years and she wanted to emphasize the usefulness you
might say of the Arabian horse like we've talked about for eons
with the Quarter horse or the the more traditional Western
horses. The AWWA is a, is a subgroup
within the AHA their and their national show.

(49:04):
As I mentioned before, Sandy is,has created a corporation now
that is called the WWA and it and it's just a working Western
alliance. And, and we like the word
alliance because it denoted someinput from a lot of sources you
might say. And and that would be a lot of

(49:26):
breeds or even non breeds. I've even kind of half jokingly,
but I guess there's no reason why it couldn't happen.
The Pintos have a long eared division.
The mules that they get ridden there are I don't know if
there's expose. There's a mule registry.
I'm not familiar with it, but you could have a a zebra

(49:47):
division, I guess. You know, if you can ride the
thing, the WWA working Western Alliance, you could come under
their huge, what we hope to become a huge umbrella.
And so the the idea the started with the Arabs and the AWWA will
continue to exist, but the WWA is a separate entity and will

(50:13):
try to develop and foster the growth of ranch type events.
We may come up with some new events even, who knows?
All breeds open. Open horse and rider.
Correct? Correct.
That's right. Which will truly be discipline
based and then developing a Ranch Challenge championship for

(50:33):
all of them. Right.
And there could be a could develop into a qualifying thing.
Like what was the show here thatAmanda Bromley ran?
The Cactus Classic? Well, that run for the million
qualifiers held at the Cactus Classic.
Right, there were some were someranch classes incorporated
there, right and and with the attempt to make the ranching

(50:57):
ranch type classes available andaccessible to other disciplines
like you mentioned at the top ofthis broadcast.
And so the idea that that there might be places around the
country you could qualify and then the Ultimate Ranch
Challenge Championships could beat a central location and be an

(51:18):
event, standalone event, but fedfrom other avenues around the
country by themselves or in conjunction with another show.
The the newness of this really is allowed us to to think big.
But getting it down on paper, you might say is is the is the
job now? Yeah, but the cow horses, the

(51:40):
Rainers and the cutters and the ropers have all and now even the
pole bull riders from Pro Rodeo,all of those are advanced
disciplines focused on the skilland discipline of what's
demanded. It is not regulated by what

(52:00):
organization you're a member of and or what breed of horse
you're riding because there could be many times grade
horses. Now comes the mule.
You know, it doesn't matter if they're registered or not,
right? They can do it.
Come on. There you go.
It's the idea of a job turning into a class 1st for a horse

(52:21):
event. If whatever you're riding can
complete the job, that that's a plus.
I mean, that's what we're looking for is from my
perspective at least. So when do you see?
When do you see this coming to astructural?
When will you be structured, formalized and ready to

(52:41):
introduce? I understand the WWA is
structurally working on that now, but when would you see is
this a 2026 thing or 2027 thing or what?
What's the short term vision? And I get the big part and Jody
and I, I don't want to overly speak for Jody, but when you
talk about writing rules and then you talk about advanced

(53:05):
development of officiating, we'dlove to at least offer some of
the things that we've spent years researching and kind of
know because we were just talking about it.
How do you shift this, shifting the scales easy, if that's what
you want. So tell me what your short term
goals are with launching the WWA.

(53:26):
Well, I think the, the input of,of people that experts, people
with more like you that have have looked into the a lot of
different facets of this pickingbrains and, and I think it'll be
an ongoing process. We're hoping that in 2026 we'll
have it a little more defined and a little more point focused.

(53:49):
And then as is, it works fine. And if it doesn't, then we try
something else. You might say we'll it'll be an
ongoing project, but I don't, atleast in my mind, I don't have a
definite date that by X date we're going to have this.
No, but from a practical standpoint, you could see it
hitting the market next year. Yes, to some, to some degree,

(54:12):
right, some degree. It's it's still could be open to
adjustment. Sure.
Well, I think the, I think the all breeds deal is phenomenal.
I think it's a great idea and I think that, you know, if a, if
an, if an American paint horse can qualify and there's a, you
know, I somewhere way shape or form, I think that that is, I
think that's super, super positive.

(54:32):
And I have mean, it's kind of like the old Field of Dreams.
If you build it, they'll come. In other words, if you can
figure out a way to get enough money out, it'll happen so fast.
I mean, these guys are trainers like, Oh yeah, we're going
right. So it's a, it's a phenomenal
idea. It's just like I said, from the
officiating standpoint, we've got some stuff that we can help
with. If you want it, we can.

(54:54):
We'll do whatever it takes, but I think it's a phenomenal idea.
Yeah, I do too. Thank you.
Here's what we know. If you only make it about the
prize money, that stimulation will be short lived.
So does the prize money need to be appropriate according to the
work and effort that goes into competition?

(55:14):
Yes, of course. But what's really important I
think is 2 things because in theworld of horse sports, what we
have not paid attention to in our lifetime is an audience or a
fan. And we're at the very beginning
of developing a fan and it's so which means you got to serve as
2 consumers at the same time. Now it puts us in the category

(55:38):
similar to professional sports, a fair and equal competition
that is enjoying to watch. To a fan, whether they played
last week or next week doesn't matter.
They're moving at the same pace that the exhibitor is.
So serving the fan and the exhibitor at the same time is is
that ultimate piece in competition.

(56:00):
I think it's absolutely fascinating because that's the
place that all of us are in pursuit.
The jumpers are trying to do it,the cross country horses are
trying to do it, the juicage horses are trying to do it.
The cutters are trying to do it,the run for the millions trying
to do it. How horses are doing a very good

(56:21):
job. The rainers are trying to do it.
The ropers have been doing a very good job for the last 8 to
10 years. Rodeo is very strong.
It went through its own turmoil,but coming out the other side of
that, which is the social license operate beast.
So all of those are very key dynamic lessons from an industry

(56:45):
standpoint that I think positions you guys phenomenally
well to then take what's the next logical forward step.
And that's why I bring up those two.
You can sit better, but now alsoan audience and you can be done.
So God bless you, I wish you thebest.
Well, thank you. I think the audience part of it

(57:07):
is going to be interesting as asthe ranch challenge becomes more
people are more aware of it, having qualifying events around
the country. Then all of a sudden people say,
hey, I saw this such and such atthe down at the at the arena
last week. And, and there's a there's a big
one coming up over here and there's a national championship

(57:30):
at the end of the year. I mean, making more people aware
of it and understanding it, that's a big part of it too.
You know the exhibitor as understands it, but the
spectator has to understand it as well, I think.
Correct. And I think that that's why I
was challenging it touch becauseas you're writing and putting
the structure into place as wellas the financial components,

(57:52):
which is purse money and entry fee, and how do you formulate
that real issue is your ability to present it to an audience
because nobody in the horse world is getting it done right.
Nobody, even the jumpers aren't and they're on CBS, but their
presentation is still lacking. That's my opinion.

(58:12):
I think working with the, you know, working with these college
girls in the NCEA, there's a great spot for a fan base there.
And I, I think people like you in this situation, you know,
this working Western alliance, because certain types of the
stuff we don't take advantage enough of.
I mean, the, you know, not just social media, but wouldn't it be
great if I of Leo and Brian Dyerhad two horses that they did

(58:34):
work in this working Western alliance?
And, and I was a big fan of guysmy age that were showing these
horses. I want to be able to pull you
guys up online and I want to seewhere you're competing and I
want to watch your runs. I want to be able to do that
from home because maybe I can't get to Scottsdale, but you know
that nobody does that. And and why not?
You know, I mean, why? Why can't you do that right?

(58:55):
You create a fan base. I, I want to watch you guys.
I want, I want to, and I, I wantto turn on my computer and see
it. So if there's so many directions
a person could go to to create that.
So I just, yeah, it's, it's fun stuff just thinking about it.
We've we've had two big topics. AWWA, they're going to happen in
October at the Nationals. Way it goes.

(59:16):
The Ranch challenge is a highlight to it.
Got several classes and divisions to it, but now comes
the opening of a whole new discipline organization, the
WWA, the Working Western Alliance and with ranch riding
for all the obvious reasons, doing what it's doing, which is
obviously on a strong growth line and should be very

(59:40):
continual for a long, long time,says to me the middle ground of
the western side of the horse show world.
Am I right or am I wrong Leo? No, I think you're right.
And and I think we all know thatsome of these other disciplines
can be physically challenging for the horses.
And when they can do it, it's fun to watch.

(01:00:01):
But the other side of that is that there gets to be a lot of
soundness issues. It's like they're they're hard
working athletes and the Ranch challenge.
They're they're they're going tohave to be athletics, they're
going to have to be trainable, they're going to have to work
with their riders. But physically they're it's less

(01:00:22):
challenging. And as a result, the career
should be longer. Be like Jody was saying, you
know, us old guys can even do it.
Well, some of these older horsescan probably do it longer too.
I mean, there could be the horses that become famous late
in life. Where are the other disciplines
that their their golden years are their younger years.

(01:00:43):
So this is it. It's looking at that as well.
And I think that's could be an angle to to enjoy.
Oh, I think without a doubt, my head tells me on any given day
that boy, it'd be nice to get back in shape and go compete
again. And raining.
But my body tells me every morning it it is it is long gone

(01:01:05):
behind me. So something like this that I
could still stay. Jody's saying we could still
stay as active in all these different forms.
I think it's phenomenal. And it is true, you know, that
that spot between 50 and 65 is avery distinct is and I'm talking

(01:01:27):
about us, not the horses. It's a very distinct spot.
And once you crossover it, there's no coming back.
So, and I can only say that because I've crossed it.
So that's the deal for. Sure.
So no, I, I think it's cool. So I, you know, God bless you.
All the power to you. I wish you all the best.

(01:01:48):
We're going to do 2 more shows. It'll be late summer, early fall
because we're going to do 2 shows here at Cowboy Office I
Leo, I'm not sure exactly where you're going to fall into that.
But the point of those two showsis a pre show leading up to the
Ranch Challenge at the this year's Nationals.
And then we'll do a post show after the Nationals.

(01:02:12):
And I'm not sure who our guest will be and what that looks
like, but we'll figure that out.But that's what the game plan
is. And then in the meantime, you
guys obviously have your hands very full with the next
development of not only the AWWARanch Challenge, but now you're
kind of developed this open breed new discipline, the WWA.

(01:02:33):
So you guys are going to be morethan busy.
Thank you for reminding me. So it's, it's been a pleasure.
It's great to see you again. We look forward to what we still
got to do, but we look forward to what you guys are doing.
So thanks for your time. Thanks for being here and make
sure you share with Sandy our appreciation.

(01:02:57):
Arabian Working western.com is the Aww A's website.
And until next time, enjoy the ride.
Thank you. Thank you so much for being a
guest again. Love having you.
Like I said, you're one of the guys that I grew up respecting.

(01:03:18):
So anyway, I appreciate you and Brian, thank you.
You know, until next time both of you stay in the middle.
We'll do it. In today's episode is brought to
you by 40 productions in cooperation with the consultant
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(01:03:40):
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