EP 33 Shawn Flarida #2 All Time Rider

Epic insights from the #2 reining rider of all time, Shawn Flarida.

Lesson Learned from Spooks Gotta Whiz and The Run for a Million. Should the Run for the Million be reining's superbowl? Bringing the great Spooks Gotta Whiz back to the Run for the Million in 2024. Along with a great discussion around Open aged event levels and 1 rider and 1 horse entry.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Cowboy Office Show where you'll experience
expert analysis and epic discussion on key pillars of the
equine industry including sports, business, hobby and the
horse lifestyle. Your Co hosts are Jodi Brainerd
and Brian Dyker, industry veterans with over 120 years
combined living the cowboy lifestyle.
The Cowboy Office Show will helpyou get involved, ask more

(00:20):
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Saddle up as we ride into today's show.

(00:44):
Horse world change is definitelyhere.
Life after the fraternity is advancing fast.
Opportunities for return and success are here for the sport.
How do we set goals, manage those goals, decide to compete,
are all changing? Can anyone achieve it?
Questions we're going to talk about.
We have with us today one of thetop all time riding horse

(01:07):
trainers and riders as we discussed change among our sport
and how they manage these new dimensions.
Ride with us by going to cowboyoffice.com.
Put your e-mail in. Don't forget to click on the
subscribe button on the platformof your choice.
Welcome to the Cowboy office. I'm Brian.
Now I'm Jody and we got a great show for you today.

(01:28):
I mean, I I've been looking forward to this one.
We want to welcome one of the best and he's been our friend
for a long time. I hate to admit how old we are
the how long we've known this guy.
According to NRAJ, the old time leaders list published in June
of 2024. We'd like to welcome Sean Flair,
the number two all time rider at7.4 million, one of the few that
has qualified every year for therun for a million finals.

(01:50):
Sean, glad to have you. Hey, thank you for having me,
Jody. Thank you for having me, Brian.
I look forward to having a conversation with you guys.
I was laughing about this. I was thinking is as I was going
through kind of the script and cut some of the things that we
were going to talk about. And Brian, I like I said, I hate
to admit how how fast this time flies, but 30 year more years
ago, I remember this. There's this little young just

(02:12):
young guy that, you know, had a pretty successful little brother
and he's thinking about maybe even showing the non pro a
little bit, you know what I mean?
And all of a sudden it's 30 years goes by, right?
And yeah, this, this guy's just stuck over 7 million in the
bank. So I'd say the decision to be a
Pro is a pretty good one for youbud.
Thank you, thank you. 30 years feels like a long time when you

(02:35):
mentioned it all like that. I remember Sean when he was a
youth it and it's probably because I judged him a ton of
times when he was a long youth before even did not pro before
even went pro. So anyways that that tells how
old all of us are. Oh, my goodness.
Right. Yeah, yeah.

(02:55):
Time, time flies when you're having fun.
But you know what I know with the the horse businesses, it's
interesting. It seems like, you know, we see
all these huge dollar figures and all this kind of stuff and
people assume that it's a fantastic way to make a living,
and it is. But you know, they don't.
If you're on the outside lookingin, you have no idea how hard to
work you have to go through to get to any degree of success in

(03:15):
this business that I know Ryan and I have talked about this
many times with the quality of the horses and how good you guys
have gotten that it ain't any easier.
It's just paying a whole hell ofa lot more money, but the
workload still the same. Would you agree it's?
Extremely hard and you know thatthere used to be, you know you
go to the reigning for charity and you see 5 or 10 good or or

(03:38):
really special horses. Now you go there and you see 75
head of horses in market 220. So our industry just like what
you saying it's changed and and I think we're breeding better
horses obviously horse kind of you better.
The whole thing's evolved. Leads us to our first big
question. The Run to the Million has
changed the industry in so many ways, but we want to focus on a

(03:58):
couple key ones with you in particular, Sean, we all, all
three of us remember well when the fraternity guaranteed the
100,000, you were a youth kid. It, it still was a very big deal
in the sport and that was in theearly 80s.
Now our sport and the Run for the Millions, a big one and the
Run for the Minions got $1,000,000 purse, paying a half

(04:19):
million to win it and 16 unique riders that all have to qualify
and they have to qualify way in advance.
You're not talking about a week or a couple days, you're talking
about months in a year only a huge different function in year
1 of a handful that has been in every finals so far.
So the question really is what does the run to man mean to you

(04:45):
as a pro and business guy you know?
From for me personally, I love the competition.
So you know that just with $1,000,000, it just makes it a,
you know, a more of a attractivesituation.
But at the same time, getting the horses to go compete at that
level is very, very difficult. And then, you know, you brought
up you can be qualifying a year before if you get in the top

(05:08):
five of the $100,000 shootout inVegas, or you could be four
months before if you qualify in Arizona and Scott's there before
then. So you know, your your horse
selection, what's available to you.
And then your game plan of getting up there to it is a big
thing. But you know, I have
conversations with those youngerguys and you know, you us 3 have

(05:29):
known each other forever and theSuper Bowl of our event and it
still is in my mind is the reigning future in Oklahoma City
that's coming up. But if you think about it from a
business standpoint, like you just brought up the question, it
really should be that should be the Super Bowl and that should
be where my brains wrapped around to go win that, that
$1,000,000, that the run for a million.
So I mean, these young guys, they're prepping for it, getting

(05:52):
horses. I mean that is their first thing
in their thought process when they wake up in the morning, I
want to go in that run for a million.
So it has definitely changed thesport and it's also definitely
changed the way we think about. Well, elaborate on that just a
touch because talk about a fraternity prospect.

(06:13):
That would be mine and Jody's reflex and we spent a lot of
years doing that. That's a very different process
than finding a once you're qualified, that's Step 1.
So you're qualified for the run to the million, but now making
sure that you're mount how you manage amount, how you select

(06:33):
amount in an aged event horse that can mark 227 or better.
That's what you got to go find, right?
And then you got to put the business together to go with it.
Is that correct? Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.
You're trying to find that horseright now.
I mean, every person that makes that, you know, there's 15
riders that get to go and it's really, really unique.

(06:53):
Just like what you guys. It's a one horse, one rider,
which I really, really like in that program.
But trying to find that horse isreally hard.
I mean, you know you, I got notes.
I go through horses, watch thosehorses in Europe, I watch the
horses in South America, I watchthe horses in Canada, I watch
them here. Just see if there's any horses
and loose hands that can maybe step up and go to that

(07:15):
direction. You know, you think about some
of the studs that are off breeding.
Is there any fresh horses that are healthy that could maybe
come back and go do it? Is there any mares that are
being exceeded an embryo that can come back and do it?
It's very difficult. And then also too with that,
that run for a million, you know, the crowd, the atmosphere,
the setting, it's phenomenal andphenomenally loud.

(07:38):
So and you got to have a horse that can withstand the cameras,
the music, the lights, the everything.
And you know, truthfully, there's some horses out there
that you know, as you guys have proed and trained that can't
you're it's hard pressed to comeup with ten horses that are
legitimately horses that can go mark above a 225 or 226.
She been that level and then youput the human rider in there and

(08:01):
all of our errors, we drop it down pretty fast.
I hear you. Yeah, there's no, there's no
question about that. We've you know, we've had
significant discussion about that and you know, the days of
the old world champion open horses where a guy used to have
to go to 40 horse shows is is over with now.
We don't do that anymore. But we just talked about like
from the, when you talk about the Super Bowl of the sport,

(08:23):
probably should be that. I think probably from, from
outside recognition and from an outside sponsorship standpoint,
that's probably the case becausethe run for a million of, I
mean, of course, you know, you've got the, got the movie
stars and you got, you know, yougot the backing, the financial
backing out there. It's probably a, it probably is
much more higher profile to outside people than even our
security is, which is still, like I said, our best sport.

(08:45):
I, I love the security because it's a 3 year old, right, Not a,
not an age source, But you know,I just sit back here.
I look at this thing and I think, you know, half $1,000,000
used to be career earnings to guys like my age, you know what
I mean? And now it's one horse show.
I mean, you know, it was like back when you were winning $5000
at a time. It takes a long time.
It takes a long time to win it. Quarter million bucks.

(09:06):
Oh, you know, here it's like, yeah, we just walk in here and I
got a nice horse and I'll just go win the half a million and
I'll, you know, step out of here.
But I, I wonder, you know, if those, if the aged event horses,
if a guy would, because this thing pays so much money that
it, Do you think, Sean, in the future, do you think that

(09:27):
somebody may actually, I mean, it's hard not to be greedy when
you want to put money in your pocket.
But do you think somebody might actually be taking some of these
nice older horses and maybe skipping those at RBC and Derby
shows to be able to try and get qualified for one?
Yeah. For sure.
I think you know, this the, you know, it was interesting
question or maybe the way Brian worded it as a business plan.

(09:49):
What does that change and it goes right back into where
you're going with that. I had 2-3 year olds this year
that fell just a little bit behind.
You know, back during the days where we would earn 3 and $5000
in Willowbrook, Pennsylvania running for those opens.
We had to go do it. Now I took those 3 year olds, I
put them back, train them a little bit different.
If they come on as 4 year olds, great, go show them.

(10:11):
But if not, there's so much money and if and they're really
good horses, Satan them horses, don't let them horses grow.
The other thing I think is our reigning horses, our value of
those horses are stayed strong and stayed up.
So it's allowing those owners todo that.
But finding horse quality and horsepower, it all goes back to
that. And you know, so you want to do,

(10:33):
if you got one, it's got specialtalent.
Just wait and just be patient where you know, maybe 20 years
ago or 15 years ago we didn't. Yeah, that's $1,000,000
statement to wait. The ability to take the time is
a big piece that's changed because we couldn't wait because
you only had one shot. You had to do everything you
could and everybody did everything they could.

(10:54):
Now you have a different opportunity.
That's what you're saying, right?
Sure, for sure. You know, when you think about
if you look at other sports maybe such as Gresage and some
of those things, you know, a lotof times those horseses, they
might they're maybe not mature, not really going on to be
successful until they're 12131416.
You know, I think that's going to come with our it's going to

(11:16):
come with our sport. It's going to come around
because I mean it's just a matter of time for some do that
we'll. Talk for a minute because you
did something this year. This is straight off of
Facebook. We just brought it up at and
this was fantastic and it was off the interview that you did,
but you and Spooks got a Wiz. And so talk for a minute because

(11:37):
you Spooks got a Wiz. I mean, most all of us know well
about him. You and him won about everything
there was. You won gold medals that no
longer exist anymore because thesport has changed that whole
aspect. So those don't even exist.
But the fact is, Wiz is a 17 year old stud, age 2.

(11:59):
He'd been in the breeding barn for the last 10 plus years,
right? So talk about, one, how you and
Michelle would have come together and made the decision
to try it? And then two, what does that
look like until you have to makea decision that he can come back

(12:20):
and let's go versus maybe he can't?
Yeah, what? Well first we could we could
spend a week talking about Spooks Cutter Wizzy for me he's
I rode 2 great horses in my lifetime.
I've actually rode more than that, but two horses that
probably changed the sport him and with these little chick, but
Spooks got a got a whiz a he's afriend.

(12:43):
And to start the conversation, Iactually asked for him from
Michelle Campbell, the very first one for a million and she
said, Nah, She said I don't wantto he's breeding.
And you know, I just everything's comfortable and I
don't I don't think I want to doit, Sean.
I should think I said, well, if he ever comes available, let me
know. Well, things kind of rolled
around this year and I didn't really have a horse that was

(13:04):
really special or sticking out. And she called me on the phone
and she said, would you consider?
I said, Oh my God, I said, you consider it.
That's that's a silly question. I said, when can I sit on it?
And so it just kind of rolled from there.
And obviously, you know, he's he's an older horse, You know,
he's 17, but he's in great shape.
His legs are clean, but he'd been breeding however many

(13:28):
mares. He breathes a lot.
But Brian and Jody come back. He come to the farm in the first
week, you know, I rode him and that was probably more of a in
all of him then maybe being a horse trainer, which I I should
have been probably more professional, but I rode him
around. But most of the time I'm
pettiting. But at some point Michelle come
out my wife and said you guys really should go to work.

(13:51):
So then I had to kind of get busy.
But when I got busy, he'd come right to the party.
I mean he went to work, you know, it's like no big deal.
But then, you know, I told Michelle, I said don't tell
nobody. I said I don't want the pressure
of having to say yes, you know, and because I was really worried
that, you know, that that he could fail.
He was she was great meeting Michelle.

(14:12):
She was she said, she said he owes me nothing.
You owe me nothing. And it can be nothing but but
positive. So it was awesome.
But you know, for a horse to come back 17 years old and he
goes and I mean, it was awesome.He was just, I didn't get maybe
as long to preparing as I would like.

(14:33):
I think I had eight weeks. I picked him up there right
after the Derby. But if that horse actually had
six months or eight months like most of those other horses to
prepare, shoot, I don't know, you know what it would have been
like. He, you know, that first stop,
he runs in there and he bucked his little butt.
He was really, really good. Obviously the one right
rollback, you know, he couldn't get through there.

(14:54):
He's just wearing out on me. But I think you're going to see
more and more horses like that go.
I mean that of course, he got retired at an early age, got
done one in the gold medal therein France.
For me, I guess I'm really happyabout that because he went and
produced a bunch of horses that I won money on.
But you know, when you get to crawl back on one of those,

(15:14):
which is a horseman, I missed him a lot.
And I think so did the public. I mean we, we love to watch
greatness and that horse is great.
There was more talk and chatter about you and Spooks got to whiz
this year with 100 million than anybody and by far.
And we got to watch it this yearbecause they didn't black it out
in the States. Yes, the crowd went nuts because

(15:37):
they they loved every part of all of that.
What you're talking about, and Ithink it's a huge testament
because Jodie's dad is one of many famous quotes that he
always made, was more great horses have made horsemen then
horsemen have made great horses.And that's exactly what you're

(15:59):
talking about, is your respect and admiration.
But Spooks got a whiz, stepped up to the plate.
That's really what you're saying?
Right, he did, most definitely. And you know what, I had to be
careful that I kept treating himlike he's a superstar and he is.
But at the same time, I I'm the coach.
So, you know, sometimes you got to step on those ball players,

(16:21):
tells them and say, hey, go to work.
That's never been the case with that horse, though.
He's just he just goes and does the job.
He he tries his tail off, just brought a smile to my face.
But you know what's a horseman too?
When he comes back in, it's amazing how you were your
internal mind changes. I mean, he just he almost can

(16:42):
read my he truly can. And those those horses like
that, they're just so I mean, they're just I could talk for
hours about that, you know, and can't thank Michelle enough for
for allowing me to to bring him back out and demonstrate him to
the public because so many people hadn't got to see him
so-called live. It was amazing how many people

(17:03):
would come up and just touch himto get a feel of which which I
do too. But you know, obviously when it
when it comes real life, real time, you go, wow, this is this
is really cool. Well, yeah.
Now what you're also talking about is a testament to the
continual evolution of the sport.
The fact that that many people that are active and enjoying all

(17:27):
the aspects of the sport today weren't around 10 years ago.
That's a big one. And and so very important point
up that a lot of today's people hadn't seen him in person.
Yeah. And I think that I.
Think that we. You know, so much of this and I,
I was kind of laughing about that.
Hey, they don't want to go up there and touch you.

(17:48):
They want to touch the horse, right.
So I mean, that kind of tells you where people's minds are.
But you know, we, you know, everybody has this and from, you
know, from from the dawn of horse trainers, I'm sure that
this has been the case. But you know, everybody wants to
give that guy the credit. You know, I mean, it's the
trainer that gets all the creditfor doing this stuff.

(18:09):
It doesn't make any difference. If you had one and trainer for
two days and you go win the futurity, you did it right.
And it's like, hell no, you knowwhat I mean?
It's like, you know, it's that livestock that it's the
livestock that does it. It's not that rider.
Cuz you know, we, we used to think that there and there was
back, you know, Brian and R theyheck, there was, you know, three
guys who probably had good enough horses and, and enough

(18:29):
understanding to win the futurity.
And if it was, you know, Bill oror Dick or Bob, you know, one of
those guys and now there's a hundred, right?
I mean, there's a hundred guys if if they got the right horse,
they can win the horseshoe. So, yeah, I think that the
public is now beginning to thinkin in those terms now that at
least that horse is the equal partner.
And it's not all that rider. I mean, you know, God bless you

(18:52):
guys and forget the credit for it.
But I mean, you know that the livestock is the reason you make
the money you make. Well, you know, it is
interesting when I would ride that horseshoe round the respect
of the other horsemen, they would watch him or touch him or
comment on him or come up close to even, you know, you, you just
great horsemen and monk, great horses.

(19:13):
I was fortunate enough to have him there.
But it's it was fun for me, but it was fun even for the other
competitors. They would come up and see him.
And this is unique, truly is unique.
I think it's a great testament to where we've where we've
reached the spot in the elevation that we've made it to
the sport. That's that's the big testament

(19:33):
that we're talking about, which is the whole piece of change I'm
going to talk about when we wantto get your take on this and
this. Jodie and I have beat this one
around for a while. This is the run for the million
is a rider qualified event. That in itself is unique.
The fact that you have to do it way in advance, months in a
year, but the one rider you can pick your horse up to draw time,

(19:59):
right? I mean, at some point, I don't
know when do you have to tell Run for the Million what horse
you're riding? When do you have to do that?
So the day before that run for amillion, actually that Friday we
actually have a trot test and wecan trot as many horses as we
wish or up to three or whatever.And then we have to decide,

(20:20):
yeah, so I actually had till 24 hours before and I'd pretty much
made all my decision by then, you know, way before that.
But yeah, that's when everybody has to make their decisions,
right? So take the one rider, one horse
and and all the goodness that comes with that, which gives you
time to manage and make decisions for everybody's

(20:41):
interest. Put that in the rest of aged
events in today's time, because we still in the sport of
raining, allow one rider to rideup to three horses.
When you talk about aged events,here's my point.
I think we should be looking at our industry in a very different
light and starting to make more structural changes that are in

(21:03):
benefit to everybody along the way.
And the big one is this one, because at the top of the sport,
one rider one horse versus one rider up to three horses.
And we're interested in your view to that is, is three horses
still serving our industry, Okie, Dokie or is it time to

(21:25):
look at that different? I I think it is time to look at
that. I don't know if I would be
willing, you know, going to fromthree to 1 feels like a lot
right at the moment, but maybe we should go to two, you know,
and we always talk about we, we need new faces in the finals or
we need, you know, more people in the finals, different faces
and stuff like that. I think if you limit it to two

(21:46):
horses, rider, or if you went toyour and Jodie's maybe idea
where you got one horse to rider, it would definitely
change things. And they definitely open up so
many doors. And the other thing too, there's
hard to get the horses just likewhat we're talking about from
the horsepower. So if we did do that, that would
loosen the belt and let a few more of those horses float
around and get another hands. And I don't think that would be

(22:09):
a bad idea. I would be a very strong yes on
going to two horses for sure. One horse scares me a little
bit, but just because maybe you guys just threw it at me, I
haven't given a lot of thought, but two horses for sure.
I I could do that tomorrow for sure.
I, you know, we've, we've talkedabout this like crazy and I'm
glad to hear you. I'm glad to hear you be open

(22:30):
minded and, and come back with that, because I, you know, we've
made, you know, three horses back in the day without that was
somebody just decided that that's what we're supposed to
have and it stayed that way. So, and I, I know, I mean, both
through showing and through my work on the judges committee,
I've seen a lot of times you guys will get, you know, top 20
riders will have 3 back, not so much anymore because the quality

(22:52):
is so good. But you know, I mean, heck, even
10 years ago, you have 3 back inthe finals.
And I'll promise you, you did it.
What to have to get all three ofthem ready because that bottom
in one, you'd rather just said, well, you know, I got him
qualified and I got to show him.But I'll promise you'd have been
a lot happier if you'd only had two, you know, and we've, we
know we've done some study on that from the judges standpoint.

(23:12):
And you know, I, I don't think Iknow your numbers from a
trainee, a trainer standpoint would not go down.
I mean, I know they wouldn't. You'd still have the same number
of horses. I think what it would do it
would, it would let Sam have a better horse, You know what I
mean? Or, you know, we right there you
say, hey, look, I can't, I can only take two.
But you know what, here's a damngood one.

(23:32):
And it we're going to Level 3 with this guy.
And I think that the quality would just go through the roof,
across the whole, across the whole horseshoe.
And I, yes, and I think you're 100% correct.
And I can also tell you with therunning through a million, the
one horse, one rider, what I have figured out is your brain
will lock in with that works no matter what and that worse and
you will get really, really witheach other and it only drives up

(23:56):
the talent and the performance. So it's very hard.
I've made the finals on three and just like what you said,
it's very difficult to get your brain to go with three different
horses and the finals. I mean, there's 30 head of
horses, ten horses between you. If you're lucky, you did, your
brain just isn't that quick to rebound or continue on with the
thing. And if you study it from a

(24:17):
competition standpoint, you'll have one high, 1 low 1 middle.
It just it just the way it is. So obviously I would go with two
horses and a drop of a hat. And I think it would be good for
industry. And I, I agree with you too,
Jody, I don't think the trainingnumbers of your horses would go
down. Our, our sport is so strong
right now. Those two year olds in the barn,

(24:38):
There's three-year olds in the barn and there's already the
aged horses in a four year old you're getting ready for next
year's derbies and and spring stuff.
So I mean your your training barn is going to be fine and I
do think after Spooks got a whizhad went to run friendly and he
showed that he could still perform at the age of 17 and do

(24:59):
really well. I think you're going to see
other guys bring horses in and come back and do that too.
So I mean, I think, I think yourbusiness, you know, program and
plan would be fine, but I think the two horses would be great.
The one horse you guys would have to talk me into and kind of
show me a little bit more of it.But I'm not opposed to it.
I just that scared me. Well, I think that there's two

(25:20):
things. Let me show you guys this and I
hear you and I think it's a phenomenal subject.
I want to show you this one first.
This is last year's 2023 Top 20 Level 4 riders for the year.
OK, what this is showing in the average 15, it shows how many
horses per rider they showed last year to make the top 20

(25:44):
list. And the average is 15 and the
maximum is 24. And so the two riders that
showed more horses than anybody else was actually Cade Fernando,
and then Papani was right behind.
So you were #11 last year, you showed fourteen horses last year
to make the top 20 list. It's an interesting piece, but

(26:05):
hang on a minute because I want to show you this one as well.
This is very fascinating when wetalk about this because I this
is only a thought. I haven't put enough work into a
my. My gut tells me business would
increase if you guys would consider changing at the aged

(26:25):
event level of our sport. And this is an interesting one
because this is the exact same list, top 20 riders level 4 last
year 2020 #11 at 172,000. But what's interesting now you
got to remember there's right there it is 15.1 is the average
because there's the horses showing per person and the money

(26:47):
cumulative per rider $4.6 million and you guys averaged 15
horses. So that's what you're all doing
and it's just an interesting piece.
When you then look at especially, I think there's two
parts, because one of the commondenominators that you guys all

(27:08):
have is the sportsman competitiveness.
Everyone of you wants to win. I we all get that phenomenal.
It's it's about how do we set itup?
So that actually you made reference your ability to
mentally as well as physically sync with your partner, the

(27:29):
horse. And you said it that that's one
of the things you've learned through the run through the
Million as opposed to the ways we've done it for 30 plus years.
And I think it opens the door for a very interesting
opportunities on how we could continue to advance.
And if we all want to build purses and have more people

(27:50):
enjoy this sport, then the Run for the Million is proving the
fact that an audience will engage, wants to engage.
And there's more there than 14 days of 14 hours of sorting
through horse after horse after horse.
So that's kind of the bigger part of that conversation.

(28:11):
Right, right. I agree 100%.
And I think, yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking too, if we
did that, it's going to help. Our younger horse trainers are
people that are obviously struggling.
Getting your level 2, your levelthree horses and getting up
there and going. That's going to make that.
It's going to make the playing field more level than it
actually is today if I'm correctin the way I'm thinking about.

(28:34):
Yes. Well, I would also I would tell
you this, if somebody asked me they wanted to get into the
random horses, I would tell themto buy a nice horse and find a
level one or two rider and get hooked up in that program.
Because if you want to earn yourway to where you want to go and
figure some things out money wise, business wise and the

(28:58):
numbers say it, your return on cost to play is way more
significant in the level 1 and 2at the moment because the door
is more open. You guys at the top at 3:00 and
4:00, everybody knows all the stuff and all your, all of you
are trying to do the exact same thing, which is have the stars

(29:19):
align at the right time and ringthe bell for the big one.
Is that not correct? I mean, there's not like a.
Big unknown. Yeah, for sure.
And I and I don't know, I mean, obviously you and Jodie Judge,
I'm not sure there's any difference between 3:00 and
4:00. I think they're the same horses.
It's just like if the stars align.
There, there isn't any. I would tell you this is my I

(29:40):
say this based on data. I would tell you that for the
sport there there is no difference between Level 3 and
four and why we even keep doing it.
Could we, could you build a better purse for level 4?
Yes. Get rid of three.
What do you need? 3 levels right now?
1-2 and four. That's what you need.
Yeah, your. Honor, I'm saying, correct?

(30:02):
Yeah, No, there's there's no question about that.
And I, you know, we've had this discussion, you know, we, we
Brian and I have talked about it.
You know, we've talked about it on the show.
We've talked about it, you know,together and you know, there's
there's so many things that the structure from the money level 4
needs to be it's the showpiece of everything.
I mean, that's the top end. It is what it is there, that's

(30:23):
it. So the money, the money
structuring is easily be done. You can take full enrollment
money and you can hear I'm goingto allot this much hear my one
of my biggest deals with those one and two level 1 and 2
riders. It's not maybe that those guys
don't don't have the talent. They get the right horse.
Evil Hell level 2 rider can win the futurity for sure.
But what I would tell you is that, and I've, you know, I've

(30:45):
told Brian this many times is like, we don't, we don't give it
a chance to have our horse trainers have enough, enough
common sense. You get that level 1 and level 2
rider. And maybe those guys get that
they've got that 218 horse that maybe they can get that level
one check as a three-year old orthey got a 219 horse and they
know that I got to get all of him to get that.
And what I want to do is I want to take my money, my entry fee

(31:08):
money, and I would like to run it at that level 1 and level 2.
And if I want to run at the level 4, then I can pay more and
I can go show against you. But if I've got my 218 right now
I have what I have to do is I just have to walk up to you and
give you 1000 bucks of it. And I may as well just give it
to you before I even go walk in the show pin because I can't
mark any more than that, right. But that's that's the way that
it's structured right now. And I think the prize that the

(31:30):
payments need to be structured before this happens so that at
least people, if I have this much money, I would like it to
go here because how I can't compete there because my my car
is not fast enough. For sure it, you know, if you
think about NASCAR, there's a reason why those guys have
qualifying the week before for that pole position.
It's the same thing in this case, you know, you got, I think

(31:52):
them horses come in brackets. I think you got the 2:15 to
2:18, you got the 2:18 to 2:22. And then you got those horses
that are just freaks. And there's the, they go from
2:24 to Infinity. But those, there's three
different brackets of horse. And you know, if you go to the
for charity and you know, your horse is somewhere between that
2:15 and 2:18 and you're only a level 4, Level 3 rider, you're

(32:16):
in trouble already before you leave you, you're sucking that
horse's energy, everything he's got, you know, and some horses
can take that. And then other horses, they got
to come home and sleep for six months.
If there's other things that we could do, we could be better
managers of our equine friends. There's a big statement.

(32:36):
Yeah, that, that's huge and coming from you that will that
will resonate. They'll be a lot of people
listen to that. So awesome.
What a great, what a great opportunity in today's time
because that opportunity did notexist not that long ago.
And that's our point about looking at our sport
structurally in a different light.

(32:58):
And can it structurally be changed so that it will benefit
all those involved? The answer is yes.
Pretty slow and not doing much as far as change and some of our
age events. And what you are talking about
is emphasizing that fact. And I think Jody had a very good

(33:19):
point. You know, he was talking about
it from a rider standpoint, but think about it from an owner's
standpoint. We got to take care of those
owners that are investing in ourhorses and investing in our
horse train. We got to put them in a position
have success and that is one wayof doing that because once they
have a little bit of success, they're only going to further
the horses success and our and our horse trainer success.

(33:41):
So I mean, we got to look at it a little bit further and see if
we can do stuff to help them. Yes, of course.
And I think that there's an opportunity in our sport that we
used to dream about. One is from the business
standpoint, because can people come into this sport from a
business perspective and enjoy the business that would be
similar to what race horses havebeen doing for a couple, 100

(34:03):
years. Could they be doing that with
reining horses in today's time? The answer is yes.
Their return on that from a business standpoint or can you
at least kind of pay your way and or even minimize the
expense? The answer is yes.
And that's what you're talking about, Sean.
Like where we've come from and that's what Jody was making
reference to because informationis a positive thing.

(34:27):
So once we know what we've got in horsepower, what we've got to
do from a sport is allow the structure to be such so that you
can play where you belong. The levelling which has been
done primarily on rider's earnings, I would tell you is
not serving the industry well. It's it's archaic.
And so yes, we know where it came from.

(34:50):
Yes, it did its purpose at its onset, but it's time to look at
it, evolve that accordingly. That would be 1, and then two is
the evolution of the horsepower,and then three, and we won't get
on this one, but is the officiating thing because all of
that needs to be moving. When you talk about 3 phases of
horsepower, the 15 to 18 horse, the 18 to 2122 horse, and the 23

(35:16):
and above the freaks. But you said it at the onset.
Not too long ago there was threeor four of those freaks.
Now there's fifty or sixty of them, right?
It's just the rest of the equation.
So yeah. One of the one of the greatest
in the world to watch. We've watched it the last couple
of years in a row as a qualifierat the Cactus.

(35:39):
I mean, you know that run for a million.
Qualifier What a a free talk about a hell.
Of a raining good God Almighty, it's just one after another here
they come and I mean and everyone of them walking through
the gate can mark a floor. You know, we're at 222 everyone
of them. I mean they can and and they
just go up from there. So I mean, someone don't get
showed, maybe don't do that. But I mean every horse in that

(36:01):
pen is capable. It's just like, holy crap,
here's 506078 of them that are like really mean.
And I'm just like, hi. I'm so glad I have got to try
and find something to compete with this stuff anymore.
Yeah, I, I your job is a it's a tough one, but I I agree with
you that there is ways. I think that because of the way

(36:23):
that it's structured, Sean, too many, too many good horses
getting gone through is not the right term.
But I mean, probably horses are maybe over trained because you
haven't got any choice. You know what I mean, That you
just you, you have to mash and mash because if I can, I can't
go compete. But if, if that, if that
structure was different so that that 218 horse had a possibility

(36:48):
to go run against his peer group, then maybe by golly, that
horse wouldn't be, We wouldn't have to try to train him to Mark
a 22 on him that he's not hardlycapable of doing so.
You know what I mean? This is that this is, these are
great, great, great conversation.
Makes me happy. Let me, let me show you guys
something because this is again a shift in the industry.

(37:08):
This looks at these are scores and this is score averages.
And you got to remember everything at the Cowboy office
we do is level 4. It's open aged event
competition. We do look at level one through
level 4, but these numbers are level 4 only.
And what this is looking at, this is this year, 2024.
So the only thing that's not in here yet is the random

(37:30):
fraternity coming up. But if you take the rest of it
and the point at the fraternity versus Derby in our industry,
and Jodie, you'll love this partbecause we used to talk about
this years ago because life after the fraternity, what did
it mean? We're there, the sport is there,
and it's the distinct differenceof building the horsepower.
And so these are the numbers that it takes to make it in the

(37:53):
sport today. So the Derby is on the left hand
side average. When you put all the derbies in
2024 together, it took a 219 1/2to make either the finals or
paychecks. Average high score to make cuts
and paychecks is 225. High score overall in any given

(38:16):
history of that was 231 1/2. That's this year.
Last year was at 2:32. I think when you look at
fraturities, it's 1 notch below that.
It's a 216 1/2 to make cuts or paychecks and fraternities are
still a little bit early becauseI think the NRHA and the numbers
are going to help with this a little bit. 222 1/2 high score

(38:39):
to make finals and 2:20 sevens right now is high score of any
given fraternity. And the point to that which goes
directly to purse money available.
And then I want to show you one more because this one is
interesting too. This is how fast the sports
movie. This is the number of aged

(39:02):
events. OK, level one through 4 open
aged events 2023 versus 2024. Later there was 10/10 events,
productions in aged events inside those ten this year
there's 15 shows, productions, whatever you want to call them,

(39:25):
and 38 aged events. Now that's doing both that's
looking at fraternities and derbies.
But in one year's time you're talking about a 50% increase in
show production, 100% increase in aged event.
But he which is going to if you remember this one when it is top

(39:47):
20 Level 4 money earners 2020 three 4.6 million out of a total
of 24 and a half million in the entire sport.
So which is right at 19 percent,19% of all available curse money
in the sport of reigning is in Level 4 open.

(40:10):
It's true. What is 2024 going to show us?
I expect that to be significantly higher, which all
of that goes to exactly what we're talking about.
And Sean, I think that your reflex on the let us try two
first is, is a great one becauseJodie is better on that one.

(40:31):
Jodie has said it for years thatwe need to go to 1 rider maximum
two horses and then keep going. And I've been on the thing that
we only need 3 levels not 4 and so could we restructure that
person? It's more return for.
Everybody, yes, for sure, for sure.
I I think the two worst thing, Ithink I like that.

(40:55):
Yeah, I like that. Well, you know, and there's
another thing, and I'll just throw this in here to get your
opinion. I know that we're, I mean like a
time wise, we're good, but I, you know, I've told Ben on this
show before too. And my, what the hell is the
difference between a 7 year old and a nine year old?
I mean, so why all of a sudden can't that aged horse go
compete? And I, I think that, you know,

(41:16):
people are worried about that, but you may have like a nice
little 9 year old gelding. And maybe he, maybe he at one
point in his career was that 222horse, but say the last ten runs
that this horse had, if we keep a record of that, he, he's in
that 17 to 18. That's where he's at right now
because he's nine years old and,and he's still a nice horse.
But then why can't that horse bemarketed to somebody that can

(41:37):
afford him? Because you know what I mean,
we, we maybe we take an average of his last ten runs and we, we
drop him into that 18, that 15 to 18 category and he still gets
to go show at the Derby. For somebody that that can't
spend 250,000 on a on an aged horse.
You know, I mean, I, I think that hell that you're saying
four to seven. It's like who thought of that,

(41:57):
right? I mean, let's go, you know,
what's the difference, right? 4 year old go on any aged horse,
no show. I I don't think we need an end
number on that dirty. It don't have to be 4 to 7,
don't have to be 4 to 8. Leave it go on to Infinity.
Those horses will tell us when we would die.
They truly will and dislike whatyou say.
You know, we got it. We got some place we got to take

(42:19):
care of our owners and their investment.
And you know what after that horse is 7 years old and now if
that Derby, I mean, I hate to say this out loud, but his value
is going to plummet. It's going to go down at least
30% and only because he had birthday doesn't make any sense.
His talent didn't drop. He's still a great horse.
He's he's big, he's strong, he'sstill stopping.

(42:41):
But you're going to tell me now he's 8 years old that he's less.
He's still a great horse, Shawn,and he's worth less money
because he's making sense. So I think you're 100% correct,
Jodie. I think we need to continue and
allow these horses to go be successful and famous.
Tell you this, you just brought up an interesting point and
we've casually talked about thisas a sport.
Structurally, we could have fraternities, we could have 4

(43:03):
year old steaks and then Derby's, which is 5 till
whenever you don't want to. It would just keep that door
open that if you can play, if you think you can play and you
got your ducks done, all you gotto do is interrupt.
Interrupt, get qualified, you can do.
But that's what you're talking about, and wouldn't that be
fascinating? Yeah, you, you, you know who?

(43:26):
Who wouldn't want Michael Jordanplaying basketball on their team
for five games, right? He can get ready for five games.
He can't get ready for 60, but he can get ready for five.
And that's what we're talking about.
And in the same thing, your Spooks got a whiz.
We're taking care of these horses.
I mean, them horses, when I get off of them, they get ice, they
get acupuncture. Yeah, they they got

(43:47):
chiropractors that kind of work on them.
They get massages. I mean, we're taking care of
them horses better than we take care of ourselves, and
rightfully so. But with all that being said,
these horses like Spooks got a whiz when he come back here, he
would actually meet me at the stall to get ridden.
They have so much human interaction.
And then when we so-called retire them or they're make

(44:09):
brood measures studs. They don't get that saddle time.
They don't get the person that brushes into Washington and
great ones miss it. They're they they do those great
ones want our our attention. They truly do.
So. So we need to give it to them.
We need to be respectful of whattheir needs are, too.
So I mean, let, let them horses that want to go be show horses.

(44:30):
We'll let them be. Let's be.
Yeah, let them be. Horses open the door and let
them be and and there comes the return from the owner, because
they would actually have more. Opportunities as well, correct?
Correct for sure. No, I hear.
Well, gentlemen, gentlemen, whata dynamic conversation.

(44:51):
It's, it's been great and I can't wait.
I'll, I'll promise you the feedback is going to be really
fun on this one. You know what I mean?
It, it really will. And we'll, we'll hear, we'll
hear all kinds of stuff that Sean, you'll have to let us
know, you know, just from just from a conversation standpoint,
you know, when people come up with, because they'll watch
this, you know, you haven't got every client in your bar and
they'll turn this on because I want to see you, you know, go

(45:12):
through this grinder. But yeah, let us know, give us
the feedback on it because theseare some great, great ideas.
And it is. So, you know, this is a
self-serving industry. I've said this many, many times
and you know, we bitch is a strong word, but we bitch like
crazy because we think, you know, you can slap somebody in
the head with a really good ideaand it never happens.

(45:33):
That because of the way this association is, it's the way the
structural, the management is, the board of directors is a it's
a hard position because you know, it's a non payer and you
got to work your tail off. And you know, most of the time
the people that actually go on the board are there's some
influence by, you know, if it's a trainer or whatever.
So you need to get on the board because we eat.

(45:54):
And then everybody wants what's best for themselves.
But sometimes the overall industry, you know, we talked
about, you know, you wanting twohorses, there's going to be guys
out there. Oh hell no.
You know, they'll think that they're going to lose training
horses and they'll they'll fightfor three.
And it's like you got to look outside the box because if you
can, then it makes it way betterfor everyone.
But you know, sometimes getting those those points of views

(46:16):
across is a difficult thing. But when you got guys that have
won 7,000,000 bucks saying that's a good idea, it'll help.
And it, it definitely is. And those guys got to open their
brains up. I mean, this sport, we've been
in existence for 55 or 56 years,which is the same length as the
NFL, football. NFL obviously attracts a whole
lot more people. But we could do a whole lot

(46:36):
better for ourselves if we thinkit through a little bit.
Yeah, sure. I I hear you.
And we've used that type of analogy a lot in our time.
And what has the run for the million done proven the number
of things that we all talked about beamed and most of us were
pretty reluctant to try change is the piece that puts everybody

(46:59):
on their heels just a touch. So what we've got to do is try
some things because the worst case with trying is learning
that it didn't work. OK, so then you change again.
I mean, that's what we've got toget ourselves from a sport.
And I agree with you, Sean. The many things that the Run to
the Million continues to prove. The sport of raining is

(47:22):
exciting. It's not only the sport of
raining, but I think cow, horse and cutting is right along with
it. And all of them are advanced
cowboy sport disciplines that isdoing something in the sports
space that I think we could way set ourselves apart.
But I am proven that the and it will attract an audience.

(47:45):
It can attract an audience and the audience is more than
willing to support it. That's we're only at the
beginning of what that could look like.
So the fact that we're the same age as the NFL, we could learn
many of those lessons, includingin officiating, because the NFL
and officiating is way more advanced than officiating in our

(48:06):
spa. And I would tell you that our
officiating is one of the spokesthat need serious attention
because it's the accuracy. It's not that they're not
trying, it's the accuracy. And we'll talk about it some
other time. But I think you make another
very powerful statement because our sport could and should be on

(48:27):
a similar, if not equal platformbecause today's culture and
society is. I think they're yearning for it
and the run to the million has proven it.
And if you take entertainment like what Taylor's been doing
with the Yellowstone, it's one of the most watched things in
the last 20 years. So you can't tell me that the

(48:48):
lifestyle and what all that means isn't important to people.
It is right? It's, it's not I, I mean, I, I
go to that run for a million andwe get to meet a lot of them
people and sign some autographs.There's people that I've never
met that come here from Springfield.
OH, regular, my old hometown. I never met them.
They come all the way out there to Las Vegas to watch and
there's, I bet I've met 10 people like that.

(49:09):
I'm saying like, where are you from?
We live right where you little it.
It's, it's crazy. So everything that you're saying
is 100% correct, 100% correct. Well said.
It's been it has been great. And you know, Sean, you've
you've been a treat and we have go with the heck out of it.
I can't tell you how thankful weare that you agreed to come on

(49:30):
here with with a couple of guys and wrestle around with us a
little bit over some difficult questions.
But we appreciate your time, your expertise, your insight.
Like I said, we so happy to hearto hear your to have your
opinions. You weren't afraid to say them.
So I love that fact. But we would like to wish you
great success for the rest of the year.
Hope you have a great futurity and it's a great industry.

(49:52):
And thank you so much. And I will tell you, everybody
watch and let us know, Give us some feedback.
Until next time, stay in the middle.
Thank you so much. We do wish you the best.
With the futurity coming up, we wish you the best in everything.
We wish you, your family and allyour horses the best always and
can't thank you enough. Your insight's been absolutely

(50:13):
valuable. I knew it was going to be great.
Appreciate your time. We know how busy everybody is,
so have a great fraternity. We'll be watching.
We'll keep the stats. We will connect Sean and his
public connection things. You don't have to go great that
people from Springfield are going to Vegas to watch you.
But if you want to get in touch with Sean, we'll make it a
little bit easier. Remember to go to

(50:35):
cowboyoffice.com. Drop your e-mail in, Join us on
this ride. Horses are good for people.
Until next time, enjoy the ride.John.
Thank you. Today's episode is brought to
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(50:59):
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