EP 34 Victor Bahna, Racing and Reining, parallels and lessons to be learned

EP 34, Victor Bahna, author of Heliacal Star, the horse racing thrilling novel. We discuss the parallels of our industry's and the pressure to present a quality product to the public. Social License to Operate and much more . This episode looks at thoroughbred horse racing and the performance horse industry as we discuss today's market and the pressure from the public to tend to our horses.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Welcome to the Cowboy Office Show where you'll experience
expert analysis and epic discussion on key pillars of the
equine industry including sports, business, hobby and the
horse lifestyle. Your Co hosts are Jodi Brainerd
and Brian Dagger, industry veterans with over 120 years
combined living the cowboy lifestyle.
The Cowboy Office Show will helpyou get involved, ask more

(00:33):
questions and create change. We'll keep riding for you as
together we learn from the ride already ridden, learn to listen
better to our horse, and make our industry better for all.
Each episode will take a ride around the industry in less time
than you can load the truck and trailer.
Drop your e-mail at cowboyoffice.com to receive
updates and never miss an episode.
Settle up as we ride into today's show.

(00:58):
Hello horse world. As Winston Churchill famously
said, there's something about the outside of a horse that's
good for the inside of a man. So true.
The social license to operate isa big topic and very important
to all of us. Do we become more responsible
and control our own destiny, or do we succumb to the

(01:18):
administrators as society may regulate us?
In this show, we will explore a few of the lessons to be learned
from the racehorse industry we have with us today.
An author, a horse owner, managing partner to Royal
Victory Thoroughbreds, a racing stable partnership, and a
lifelong horse enthusiast that has a very unique perspective on

(01:41):
the modern racehorse world and the role horses play in our
lives. Go to cowboyoffice.com, put your
e-mail in. Join us on our ride.
Make sure to hit the subscribe button on the platform of your
choice. I'm Brian.
And I'm Jody. We want to welcome today Victor
Bona, originally a New Yorker from Long Island and now a tech

(02:02):
software career expert that lives in Washington.
He is the author of Elecal Star,the novel horse racing thriller.
It's a great read. I just finished with it.
And what an outstanding story. Most of us in the modern horse
show world can completely relateto this.
Welcome, Victor. Thank you for having me on your
show today. I really appreciate it.

(02:22):
And thank you for your comments about the book.
That's really rewarding to hear your feedback.
So love, love to hear that stuff.
Well, it it, it is a dynamic story and so we certainly
encourage everybody to get it. We'll give you all the details
in a minute, but it is a great read.
There's many parallels between the racehorse industry and the

(02:43):
modern advanced horse show industry.
Change the names in the venues as we all may have somewhat
similar stories. Competition will induce change
human behavior. There's no doubt gambling is
gambling and now the US is bringing sports betting to a
more modern universal level. Horse racing and wagering has
been around as long as we've been riding horses.

(03:05):
The wagering attracts and handicapping racing has been a
foundation principle to the purses offered at race tracks,
which has been a major economic driver to the entire industry of
horse racing. We'll come back to this.
Let's start after a lifetime of being around the racehorse
industry from the outside in theperiphery.
What was it like when you becamea horse owner for the first time

(03:28):
in 205 and then go on to manage a partnership in the active
horse racing industry called Royal Victory Thoroughbred?
Yeah. So I grew up here, as you
mentioned, in New York on Long Island, not too far from Belmont
Racetrack, which is known for the Belmont Stakes every year as
part of the Triple Crown. For me, being a spectator for

(03:49):
all those years, I never really thought that I'd end up in a
position where I could own a racehorse and be part of a fact
that business or industry. So the the first time I claimed
a horse at a racetrack, which was in Washington state, it was
intoxicating. Actually, it was, it was a dream
come true. I'm like, wow, you know, I've, I
feel like, you know, I'm in a, in a new, a new world here.

(04:11):
But it really just was the beginning for me with regard to
just learning that it's a lot more than just a horse running
on a track. There's a whole ecosystem that's
supporting that, the horses, theindustry, the venue, the
facility, you know, everything that goes with it.
The next 20 years effectively have become a journey for me and
in learning a lot about what's what's happening both good and

(04:34):
bad in terms of the the racing business.
So your first purchase was claiming a horse in a race.
That's. How you That was my first
purchase. Yeah, yeah.
That's a pretty bold move that that's that's more than going to
the horse sale. Yeah, eventually I got to the
horse sale. But yeah, the first one was was
a claiming a claiming horse. As the racing business goes,

(04:55):
claiming has a little bit less downside and less upside.
It's a little bit of a safer play actually with regard to
what you're what you're buying because it's the horse has
already raced and you kind of have a sense of what their
performances are on the racetrack.
Of course, I, I claimed the maiden that was unproven,
perhaps a bit more risk riskier in that sense.
But yeah, that was, it was a modest claim and it, it was a

(05:15):
great introduction for me because I got to then see what
was happening behind the scenes,so to speak.
And, and from there, it just became, you know, almost like a
love affair between myself and the horses, leading to
eventually this, this partnership, which which I have
to share the passion and the, and the excitement of, of being
an owner. That's why I'm doing it.
It's not, not necessarily for, you know, anything financial or

(05:38):
anything like that. That's, you know, that's really
interesting. Did you, did you have a trainer
spotted before you made your claim?
I mean. I did.
You had to have a claim, right? Yeah.
I yeah, you have certain rules you have to have in place.
You have to have a trainer, you have to have the money in, in
the account and you have to fillout the form exactly correctly
or they're going to avoid the claim.

(05:58):
And in this case, I had gone to an owner seminar at the
racetrack a couple of months earlier and then started talking
to one of the local trainers whoI still is.
He's actually one of my trainersstill today.
So I was very fortunate to associate with him back then.
And he was terrific in terms of just kind of showing me the
ropes a little bit, taking me even before I claimed the horse.

(06:18):
He was taking me on the golf cart around the backstretch and
kind of giving me some some advice and pointers and and
together he he advised me on which horse to claim as well.
And this was all in. This was all in Washington.
Yes, this is up in Emerald Downsat Washington state, Yeah.
OK, that's interesting. So just briefly tell me a little
bit about this because we don't know what I mean.
We've, you know, we've we've syndicated performance horses,

(06:40):
stallions, there's been partnerships, but with the race
horses. And I believe you correct me if
I'm wrong, because I just I toldyou that I've had some history
with Lucas and I believe that Seize the Gray is owned by
multiple owners. Is that not correct?
Because I remember Lucas on T stand.
We're going to have we're going to have 400 owners in the box
here to get a picture taken whenhe'll stink when he won a race.
But so tell me a little bit about the partnership thing, us

(07:02):
a little bit about that partnership thing and how that
works. Who, who manages?
Because, you know, there's a lotof people involved.
Yeah. So my, my partnership's much
more modest. The the one that Lucas is
involved with, what sees the Gray would be myracehorse.com.
And that's, that's more of a Internet campaign almost, you
know, it's one of those they have, I think it's, yeah,

(07:24):
hundreds if not 1000 owners for those that and they they pay a
modest amount and then they get they get certain access to
information about the horse and stable tours, that sort of
thing. But what I do is a little bit
more of a it's more of a niche type of partnership.
Ioffer 10% shares in each of therace horses that I own and
partners can opt in or, or they could decide not to opt in.

(07:46):
So what happens is when the horse is about ready to race,
I'll make the offer to the partners and then they decide
whether they opt in or not. And you know, some of the horses
will have a high percentage of, of partners and some will have a
very low percentage of dependingon what they want to do.
And I'm not trying to put pressure on anybody to own or
not own. So I'll, I'll provide them with
information with regard to the pedigree, where the horse is

(08:07):
going to race, because the rateswill be a little bit different
depending on where they are. And with my partnership, since
it's pretty tight and it's not avery big partnership, I do all
of the management, I work with all the trainers and provide all
the updates. I also, I'm not charging any
overhead because my goal with the partnership is to really
just introduce people into the sport, give them an opportunity

(08:30):
to taste the champagne of victory and to feel the gut
wrenching, you know, spoils the defeat, I suppose.
The agony. Yeah.
I mean, we all need to feel that.
But. And at that point, they could
decide if that's something that they want to do, you know, more
on their own or if they want to kind of stick with the
partnership. So everything I do is based on
that. OK.

(08:51):
What? Tell me, partners, are you
seeing more new people come and play on the ownership side of
horse racing versus in the past finding new partners?
Is that an easy thing or a hard thing?
No, I don't think it is. I think it's hard.
It's hard to find new partners. And, and part of it is on my end

(09:12):
because I want to be pretty selective in terms of who I want
to partner with. I don't necessarily want to open
it up to everybody because we'redealing with pretty sensitive
stuff. There's, there's money involved
and there's tax forms that have to be filled out.
And I just want to make sure that you know who I'm working
with or partnering with her folks that I want to be
partnered with. So I could be a bit bit more
selective. I think my racehorse has done a

(09:34):
lot of that actually. You mentioned sees the Gray.
You know, we're seeing a lot more of those myracehorse.com
horses come out and that's superaffordable because it's only a
few $100, I think it's like $280and then you don't pay anything
else after that. So you, you get to be, it's not
quite the same in my opinion, ascompletely owning the horse

(09:54):
because you're not going to makethe decisions on who the trainer
is and you're not going to make,you're not going to be
consulting necessarily with the trainer on a regular basis.
But it does give you sort of a taste and a flavor and it does
create a little bit more interest.
And it is kind of, I, I think it's kind of cool when you see a
couple 100 people crowding a winner's circle for a race,
right? As long as they're not racing,
it's me, that's all. And then if the horse does

(10:17):
really well financially, does itpay dividends?
If the horse does really well, it will pay dividends.
Yeah, you can do that. It's I tell people not to.
Download it. Not to, not to expect to, to
make money, You know, if, if, ifyou're doing this as an
investment, there are way betterplaces to invest your money.
But if you want to, if you want to, if you want to scream and

(10:39):
yell at a, you know, at a, at a race track or at a streaming
race on, on the Internet, you'regoing to get a lot of
excitement. And I think you're going to get
a lot of value for your money because think about how much
money you spend if you're going to a sporting event, if you go
into a football game or hockey game or something like that, I
mean, it's a lot of money you'redropping.
And if you got season tickets, it's even more.

(11:01):
So I look at it this way, you know, it's it's investment in
entertainment and it gives you an insider view of what's really
happening inside a pretty, a pretty interesting industry too.
Really well, cool. We we had a little discussion
about this early when we were setting up for the show.
The horse bond thing is, is super important.
I think all of us decide we're going to make a career out of
this. We have to feel that bond and
you know where the animal rightsactivists and so much of that

(11:23):
stuff goes on, which is part of the issue that we have with with
the race business and with the horse business in general.
But people think that the horsesare like pets.
And I try to explain to people they're not.
I mean, they're, they're, they're horses, They're special.
That bond is special that we have with them.
They're a working animal. People think that we force
horses to run. And I said horses love to run.

(11:44):
That's that's what makes this sport so great is because the
jockey has something underneath him that has so much heart and
courage. And I mean press to try to win a
race. You've seen those close, close
races and it's it's like that's what that's what drives it.
Even when I watch it, it's like I, I, I was fortunate to be able
to see Secretariat because I'm old enough to have known what a

(12:04):
terrible, boring racehorse. You know what I mean?
It was like, there's no, there'sno, no heart involved there at
all. I think it's just go beat you by
30 lengths and and leave, right?I mean, holy wow.
But anyway, when you were young you had to feel this passion.
So when did you first think you know what I love?
A horse. Where did that come from?

(12:25):
Probably the first time I was atthe racetrack, yeah, I just the
excitement of being there and like you, you mentioned, just
just the thrills that we were, we are in just hearing the sound
of them just running towards thethe finish line.
Back then we weren't, we weren'ton TV's as much as we are now.
And I would run to the, to the rail and I'd hear the races and
just just watch them and the grace and the strength and just

(12:47):
the competition itself. And was, was super exciting to
me. So that, that drew me in
initially in terms of just watching these athletes perform
on the, on the racetrack. And then I actually took a
college course that was teachingme some Morsemanship and, and
that was for a year in college. That was really enlightening
too, because then I got to actually work with a horse and
ride a horse and get to learn a little bit more about, you know,

(13:09):
what it is to partner with a horse.
And then so that also, that stayed with me even though I
moved out to Washington and didn't ride a horse for probably
25 years. Once I had the opportunity to do
it again, I was just like, sign me up.
I'm all. Tell me where you took that
course. Was that back in New York?
It was, yeah. I was at my college, State

(13:31):
University at Stony Brook. I don't know if they still have
the course or not, but it was, it was.
It was out on eastern Long Island, Yeah.
One of the SUNY schools. It is, yeah.
Yeah, I anyways, I went to Canton and there's summer, even
Morrisville, because they had a,they had a standardbred racing
program at Morrisville, which isa SUNY school.
So it was just interesting. Campus, but it was at a it was a

(13:52):
local farm that was near near Stony Brook campus, Yeah.
OK. Did, did you have a parent
involved when you were young that took you to the racetrack
or did you, I mean, did you justgot your driver's license?
Said I'm gonna go watch a horse race.
Or I did not have parents that took me to the racetrack.
That was something that they didnot know about until later later
on. OK, that was some of those days.

(14:15):
You played hooky, some of your buddies, you guys went to the
track, right? Yeah, we would say, you know, I
think school's over for now. Let's let's find a.
And then we didn't have driver'slicenses yet.
And in fact, we weren't even legal to, to be gambling on the
races. But we found a bus that took us
really close to the front gates and we found willing
participants that were would place our bets for us, you know,

(14:36):
for for an extra two or three dollars.
Right. Yeah, that's a great story
though. But I mean, that's, you know,
that's, I think probably that's what's missing today with the
with the race business, because so much of it now, you yourself
have said that you can you pull up simulcast.
It's you turn on TV and you, youmiss that.
It's not the same. I mean, you can be passionate

(14:58):
about a horse race, but it's notthe same until you're there and,
you know, you, you bet on a horse or you own part of one and
you know, this thing breaks and you know, I love the quarter
horse racing too. I mean, it happens very, very
fast, but it's like it's the same thing, you know what I
mean? That passion is is just like a.
It's, it's the sounds, it's the smells, it's the, it's the

(15:21):
sights. You know, it's, it's having that
voucher in your hand actually, instead of, you know, just
everything on your phone. And yeah, there's a lot of,
there's a lot of excitement thatgoes into that.
And you do lose a lot of that when you're not, when you're not
physically there. So I actually especially like
going to the race track in the mornings when they're doing
training because there's it's organized chaos effectively on
the backstretch with horses coming and going and on and off

(15:44):
the track and they're going in different directions and it, but
it's all very structured in its own way.
And you get a lot more personality actually from not
just the the people back there, but also from the horses
themselves. You really get to see them when
they're not necessarily all kindof jacked up for a race.
We have the same thing. It's called the warm up arena.
It's same thing, not just not a track it, it's organized chaos.

(16:07):
And so yes, and there is a lot going on and a lot to learn and
there's a lot of fun there too. So.
Yes, it is I, I really enjoy that, you know, cup of coffee
and, and a bunch of horses and you can just really can you get
an appreciation for all the hardwork that goes back there too,
because it's a lot of work to to.
You know, keep a boy, keep A andthe hours that go into it, my

(16:29):
goodness. I mean, you know, way before
daylight. And Yep, it was, it's really,
really hard work. Well, that's, I mean, that's a
great background. I, I love the story.
You had to get on a bus and sneak to the track.
You know they're not letting momand dad know about that one,
right? Yeah, that's we would, we would
catch the last three races of the day if we did that and they
were racing basically every day but Tuesday.

(16:49):
So, you know, it was pretty much, you know, four day a week
thing that we could do. Yeah, the track is so fun.
And because I laugh at this, because I'm thinking back when I
was, it worked at Los Alamitos bazillion years ago and I, we
were all, we would always have a, you know, the Lucas stable,
those guys, you know, we'd have,you know, half dozen of us, we
would have a, we'd pull money and we'd have a show bet, right?

(17:10):
I mean, because we could always pick a horse that's going to run
on the top. I mean, we would do that
everything. We'd pull our money, we'd we'd
go back to $50 window and then we would, you know, split it up
at the end of the night. We have very successful but
we're here. Guys that are working on the
track in the barns, know the trainers, know the horses, and
this just shows you how what a great equalizer horse racing is.

(17:30):
Because we'd be upstairs and down at the bottom.
Some lady would bet her cousin'ssecond birthday on a long shot,
you know it'll be a 40 to one and win a 2000 bucks on a $2.00
exacta ticket. It's like, you got to be kidding
me, right? If you possibly do that right,
But it happened. So yeah, anybody.

(17:50):
You can have a great education, be the best handicapper in the
world, and you can look really dumb.
It does happen, yes, it definitely happens.
So I've, I've been, I've been a victim of that myself multiple
times. Yeah, exactly.
Haven't, haven't we all? And I think that the the sports
betting modernizing in today's society and where it all goes,

(18:13):
Jody and I and A lot of our colleagues talk about this a lot
because can our disciplines offer some of that?
Jody's a huge advocate on the fact that the horse is the
equalizer and no matter how goodthe half of the partnership, you
got to put them together. And not only do you have to put
them together, then you've got to be able to repeat it.

(18:34):
How many races you go to, how many competitions we go to.
When you got to have horse and rider step up to the plate, now
is when it's got to happen. And so it's there's common
denominators in there. The betting component I think is
very interesting and I only say it because from where Jody and I
come from, building purses is one of our last quest as an

(18:59):
industry is having revenue sources.
The racehorse industry, I don't care if you're talking about
quarter horses, Thoroughbreds orStandardbreds, they've always
had that para mutual piece whichis coming from the bulk fan
group. It's doing wagering because a
percentage of that stays back tothe track and that's where the
track builds those purses to offer up to get the horses and

(19:22):
away you go. In our world, couldn't there be
some? I, I don't know if it's a
modernized version of that or not.
I'm not sure. But when we talk about sports
betting, I think that's all veryinteresting.
But betting, just like competition will alter human
behavior. That's the baseball saga that
they all got into years ago. And so we've all got to be

(19:47):
responsible along the way. I want to get to your book.
So Victor, talk real quick aboutyour book Helical Star.
It's a great, thrilling story. It's absolutely phenomenal.
I could have just changed the names in the venues and Jody and
I could have told their own stories.
I found it absolutely fascinating.

(20:09):
But talk about it. The big question is why write it
and why a novel? Yeah, so, so I hadn't written a
book prior to this and I just had a light bulb moment one day
where I thought to myself, you know, I, I I think I want to
write a story and I want to tellthe story about a horse.

(20:30):
And I want to show that story interms of the what happens to
this a horse that you could literally spend, you know,
hundreds of thousands of dollarsfor at an auction.
What potentially might happen tothat horse over the course of
his career and potentially afterhis career is over?
Like what are some of the potential scenarios that we can
run into? And often in racing, we talked a

(20:53):
lot about what's happening in the sales, the auctions and the
amount of money that's being spent.
And we spent a lot of time with the big races, whether it's the,
the Triple Crown or the BreedersCup or just racing in general.
But we don't really have that conversation as much in terms of
when they're done with the with the with the racing, You know,
if they get injured or if they're just not very good and

(21:14):
can't compete or they just get older and they don't have what
they used to. And so I wanted to tell tell
that that story and, you know, wrap it in a an interesting tale
that that people would find, youknow, something that they'd want
to keep keep reading and not want to put down.
And that's sort of where all came from.
Being a breeder and an owner myself, I also have a lot of a

(21:36):
lot of passion for the sport and, you know, have a lot of
care for these horses. And I also wanted to express
that as well as part of this. But of course, racing could also
provide a pretty interesting backdrop.
And so we've got our nefarious bad guys, of course, and you
know, they're trying to do things that may or may not
happen in, in real life. I think it's it's reasonably

(21:58):
believable that you could see these things, you know,
potentially happening in a in a real world scenario, although it
is fiction. And our main character actually
has this background where he hadworked for the organized crime
family for a while, left on pretty rough terms.
And he finds himself in a situation where he's overhearing
a conversation at the barn one day and he recognizes one of the

(22:22):
voices is one of these mobsters from his past.
And yeah, that's not some of that he ever wanted to run into
again or ever see again. But what he's saying is so
disturbing that our main character has to make a decision
with regard to does he does he report what he sees and risk the
potential of running into these these bad guys again and

(22:43):
potentially putting his life at risk?
Or does he just, you know, let bygones be bygones and, and not,
not do anything? And of course, you know, he's
going to do the right thing. And after some internal
consternation, and then the story sort of takes off from
there, right? Right.
Yeah, well, I I thought it was, I thought it's a neat story to

(23:03):
be. I thought the story is great.
The book is great. The fact that you just basically
come in off the street and say, ah, you know what?
I think I'm going to write a book and you made it work.
So when I'm like, it's like, really?
I mean, that's yeah, well, I've never wrote a book before.
I think I'll just write one. It's like, holy cow.
And. I'll say that it, it took, it
took a, you know, about seven years from from start to finish.

(23:24):
And the first draft of the book would be not worth probably
reading the 1st 5 pages. So there's a lot of iteration.
There was a lot of lot of editing on my part.
And there was a lot more that I,as I, as I continue to write it.
One of the interesting things having not written before and in
terms of that a novel was I wasn't really quite sure how to,
you know, how it was going to end even while I was writing it.

(23:47):
It was more of those, let's justkind of keep the story going and
let's, let's go here and let's go there.
And it wasn't until I got to theending that I actually, you
know, had the ending. So it's not something that I had
this foresighted ahead of time thinking, OK, this is how the
book is going to end. It just just sort of came
together. And I think that actually makes
hindsight act. I'm, I'm glad I did that because
I think it makes the ending lesspredictable for, for the reader.

(24:09):
You know, most of the folks thathave come back and read the book
have said that they, they, they couldn't necessarily, they
weren't quite sure exactly whereit was going to go.
And so keeping them on edge was was kind of, kind of nice to do
as far as far as keeping the story going.
You did and you did it. You did it well.
You got my attention at the beginning and I stuck right

(24:29):
through it. So cuz you got me.
Excellent, Excellent. That's great.
Victor, I ask you this question before and you've had a little
time to think about it now. But you know, I mean, you, you
tell a story and it's a great story, but you know, there are
parts of this thing that are absolutely, I mean, you, it
tells you about the race business.
Is there is there parts of this book that you would like people

(24:51):
to understand parts of this thatparts of the story that you
wrote? What's important to you to get a
message to get across to the people that are going to buy and
read the. Book my message to the people
would be first and foremost thatnot everything you read in the
media is going to be reality. I think we get a distorted view
of the world from the lens of, of certain outlets and, and

(25:12):
mainstream media, let's just say, and I know they're doing it
because they want to get ratingsor attention or clicks,
whatever. The real world is a lot
different than what what we often see.
There is just a lot happening, as I mentioned, to, to get a
horse ready for racing and to care and feed and train and so
forth. And I wanted people to
understand that most of the people that are on the

(25:32):
backstretch are in fact, you know, really passionate about
caring for the force and puttingthe welfare of the force first.
So that would be probably the first.
The second point is, again, kindof looking at what happens to
the horses after they finish racing.
There are loopholes and there are some scenarios where a horse

(25:52):
can end up in a pretty bad spot.And even though it's, it's not
as bad as it used to be, we still, they're still going to be
bad actors out there and they'regoing to try to exploit the
system and, and potentially goodpeople.
And so we've got to just be really, you know, keep our eyes
open and be, be diligent about those things and continue to

(26:12):
weed out those, those bad actorsso that we can get back to
having a, I would just say a more favorable view of what
we're doing from a mainstream perspective.
I think generally speaking, people bringing people that may
not necessarily be involved in racing and putting them in the
moment in terms of, you know, before the race, during the

(26:34):
race, after the race, and havingthem kind of go through some of
the same emotions that we go through, you know, as owners or
spectators. I think that was also important
too, is giving that ability to relate to an environment they
might not know as much about andmaybe getting them excited and
hopefully they'll show up at a racetrack one day and and feel
it live like like we have reallycool.
I mean, that's, that's interesting.

(26:56):
I thought it was really a good part of the book when you're
talking about those horses when careers are finished and it's
not just just the racehorse business, The performance horse
business is the same way. You know, we've got stallions,
you've got your mares, if they're money earners are going
to have fools and yadda yadda, yadda.
It's like I look out my window and I have a 22 year old gilding
and probably a 26 year old mare that are standing out there that

(27:18):
have been great show horses, made me a lot of money over the
years. And they'll die here.
But it's not like it's costing $0.35 a day like you're feeding
your dog, you know, to watch those guys out there.
So it's AI mean it's a it's an issue.
It is. It it's expensive, it's wherever
you are caring for a 1200 LB animal is going to be expensive

(27:41):
and they're going to need space,They're going to need, they're
going to need feed, they're going to need vet care, they're
going to need chewing. It's not something for the faint
of heart. If, if, if you're on a, you
know, a thin budget and, and you're watching pennies, you
know, you're going to have to, you know, make a commitment to
caring for, for the worst. And, and that's probably the
biggest threat that exists todayis, you know, people just don't

(28:04):
necessarily understand when theyget into it that, hey, it's
really exciting to own a race for us and maybe you get some,
some payback and dividends. And I've had a few that have,
have definitely done that. But when their career is over,
you still have a responsibility to take care of that horse.
And, you know, whether it's rehoming them or finding them,
you know, a second career or, ordoing it yourself, that that
sometimes is a reality that people don't really appreciate

(28:25):
until they're in that reality. And then all of a sudden they're
they're like, wow, this is a lotof money.
And I don't know if I want to pay for that anymore.
And so that to me is the biggestchallenge that we face in terms
of the aftercare of horses. And quite frankly, it could be
pretty convenient to just say, Hey, let me send them to an AG
auction, you know, with the highest bidder take them.
And sometimes that bidder is, issomeone that's got other plans

(28:49):
in terms of what they're going to do with that horse, put them
on a trailer and send them up toCanada or down to Mexico.
And next thing you know, they're, they're in the food
chain. So that, that's just something
that people just I think need tobe aware of when they're getting
involved with horses and, and make that commitment up front if
they can. And if they can't, by the way,
there's, there are charities, there are foundations, there are

(29:11):
places you can go. Don't just panic and say I, you
know, I need to, you know, just sell it in an AG auction.
You know, find, find someone that you'll find.
There are always going to be people that are going to try to
help you if you are in a situation like that, from what
I've seen. True, all of the things that
happened to us in life so it's not only those do we all have
are things devastating to us in life and therefore our

(29:33):
commitments and activities and other ways get changed answers.
Yes, I would tell you the American Horse Council has a
very active program called the Unwanted Horse Coalition, and I
know the racehorse industry is very active on the horse council
level as well. That's one of those on a
national program. And I agree with you
wholeheartedly, Victor. Are there alternatives by which

(29:58):
we can ensure that our horses have the end of life that a
horse is supposed to have? Yes, and I hear you because I
don't think there's no part of the modern horse world that's
immune to that component. So you know, what does that look
like? I don't think anybody has that
answer, but I know that there are lots and lots of resources

(30:22):
available. So people that may find
themselves in that scenario, including economic hardship
where they can't they're, they're it's the choice of
putting food in your own mouth or trying to feed your horse and
reach out and get some help, right?
Yeah. And and that's, that's, that's
that's true. I mean, even in the book, you
know, one of the characters justfinds himself in a position

(30:44):
where he's at a point where he doesn't know where necessarily
what to do. And so he's, he starts to get
hooked up. He put himself in a bad, bad
place and then he gets hooked upwith some bad people.
And then next thing you know, he's compromised and, and he's
got to do bad things. And it doesn't necessarily mean,
you know, he's, he's a terrible,terrible person, but it does
mean that, you know, he feels like he's kind of backed into a

(31:05):
corner. So but, but the awareness, I
think there's a lot more of those those services and, and
foundations today than there have been in the past.
It's really encouraging to see the the awareness as well.
And in the thoroughbred industryin particular, you know, we're
just seeing a lot more awareness, whether it's race
tracks promoting it or some of the more recognized owners doing

(31:27):
the same. I think we're moving in the
right direction from from that perspective.
I hope so. I hope so because one of Jodie's
in my bigger push is getting thehorse world exposed to more of
the public for the goodness of what horses do to people and
people should be doing with horses.
And fundamentally, there's nothing but greatness in there.

(31:48):
And the bulk of people are good and the bulk of horses are good.
And yes, you have to sort through them and yes, there are
bad horses that want to hurt you.
And so there are ways that you have to tell you that's no
different than having a aggressive bad dog.
We all know all of those stories.
It just takes the responsibility.
I want to talk for a minute about the parallels.

(32:09):
And while your book tells this fascinating story and goes into
some of the deep, darker sides of society and brings it up
through the racehorse industry, there are a lot of parallels to
our side of the world as well. But let's talk about for a
minute, social license to operate in social media.
You made a statement a minute ago about the power of social

(32:33):
media, and they drive the negative to get the clicks.
I would tell us that we as a country in a society just lived
through one of those tales because while the national
politics and all of the hoopla was saying one thing, the
society said different. So that's fundamentally true.

(32:57):
I'm not trying to go political, but the point to the story is
there's a huge disconnect between just publishing social
media stuff versus truth in reality.
Is that not true? And so then comes how do we, and
it's part of what this show Cowboy Office is.

(33:20):
What we do is try to publish andprovide factual information that
educates a consumer and then letthem make their mind up
accordingly. We're not trying to take them
one way or the other. Jody and I do it a lot in the
competitive side because our officiating has a large piece of
that. And in our world, the
officiating is a large componentto the outcome of competition.

(33:43):
But where I went with all of that was how do we use social
media to tell the positive side of the story and not allow the
mask to just be barking about the negative for the clicks?
Yeah, it's a hard question. The silent majority that you
referenced, I would say is, is, is pretty revealing because it
does show us that what people are really thinking might not be

(34:07):
what people are, are saying out loud.
And that that could very well bethe case with regard to our
business as well. I think encouraging people to
really Get the facts and do yourresearch.
Don't just believe somebody because they're, they're giving
you a report or understand more context behind what they're
saying. And it's not to say that we, we,

(34:28):
we can't stand improvement. You know, I think every industry
and, you know, element of society can can stand some
improvement somewhere, but it itmeans that.
But again, the intent here is isoverwhelmingly positive and good
for the horse. So we just have to figure out
ways in which we can socialize that a lot more.

(34:49):
And maybe it is through social media.
Maybe it is just through throughtime will will prevail in the
sense that the real story will eventually come out.
It, it is a really hard one because we're drawn to the car
crashes into the, into the, the sensational, you know, news
story or who's fighting with who.
And it just, it just kind of draws our attention when we've

(35:10):
got an 8 second attention span. So it's a hard one, I think.
And I'm, I'm not sure I know what the answers are.
The more exposure and the more, you know, we can introduce
people to what we're doing on a day-to-day basis and, and do it
in a way that might be entertaining, that might be a
solution here, but I wish it waseasy, but I don't, I don't know
the simple answer to that. Question.

(35:30):
I don't think anybody knows, buteverybody society wants to talk
about social media on the good and the bad.
And a lot of times they're talking about because
everybody's just making noise. But hang on, I'm not trying to
go political, but I found this fascinating because during the
national federal campaign for president in this country just

(35:50):
recently, the podcast episode that had one-on-one
conversations with candidates got more.
So the analysis says had more validity, had more truth and
context to it, and provided higher value to the consumer
because they were watching it infirst person and not just being

(36:14):
told the storybook last and whatever that was.
So that is a huge change in a short period of time of how the
consumer gets educated. I use that as a parallel because
that's somewhat of what we're talking about, right?
Yeah, I think that's great actually because I and the thing
I think that's most interesting about what you just said is

(36:36):
those podcasts were not ten second podcast.
They were they were long and people paid attention to them.
And so maybe the attention span is starting to go back in the
other direction, which I think would be a good thing for all of
us. It's a difference in the
consumption of information and Ithink will the consumer slow

(36:57):
down and consume what they have interest in and then they can
ensure that their time is going to be worthwhile.
I think that's what somebody like Joe Rogan has brought to
the table. In the podcast level, 30 million
people viewed that within 48 hours.
And politically, you're talking about Joe Rogan as a host was is

(37:20):
politically, to my understanding, a little bit more
left to center as opposed to a Trump that was a little bit more
right of center. So it's not like they're trying
to line the stars. I think what Joe Rogan has done,
and they all say this is he's a fantastic conversationalist.
He asked the questions and he just lets it go.

(37:42):
And so then the consumer can getit in first person.
I think in our case, especially in the horse world, it's things
like this. How do we, how do we continue to
provide valid good information so that the consumer can rely on
the fact that that information is fundamentally true, which is

(38:04):
coming from first person resource as opposed to 2nd and
3rd. That's the piece.
And I think the media is absolutely changing because we
used to have to rely on advertising ourself.
We had to advertise on the radio, on TV, in the newspaper,
on the billboards. We don't have to do that
anymore. I would say, yeah.

(38:25):
The other thing I would say is what you're doing here I think
is exactly right because it's authentic.
And I think people are really looking for authenticity.
You know what they're seeing a lot of this peripheral sort of
headline type stuff, but it's, it's not, it's not very
meaningful. And we're starting to crave a
little bit more of that authenticity.

(38:46):
And I think, you know, that's, that's what you're, you know,
the podcast you're referencing. I think that's what people
probably saw a lot more of was, hey, it's not just this blast of
advertisement. This is actually a authentic
conversation that's taking place.
I'm going to pay a little bit more attention here because I'm,
I'm hearing first hand from, youknow, the, the individuals that
I'm interested in. And I think that to me would be

(39:07):
a really positive trend if that's, if that's what's
happening, because I think that's our best weapon here is
being authentic. We don't have to put on a facade
because it's it's not necessary.Tell us what you HISSA.
I want to talk about HISSA for aminute, which is the Horse
Racing Integrity and Safety Authority was enacted by the US
Congress in 2022. It went into effect last year in

(39:28):
May of 2023 and it's a private authority under the regulations
of the Federal Trade Commission and its mission.
I don't want to misquote it. I have followed Jody and I have
because we just have interest, blah, blah, blah.
But the industry evolution of horse racing in today's time and
the lessons that the things thatthey're going through, the rough

(39:49):
waters and the lessons they're learning and the actions that
they're taking, HISSA is one of those.
It's come out of those rough waters that the industry's gone
through. Talk to us for a minute.
Especially being an active partner, What does it mean?
Is it working? It's still early, but is it good

(40:10):
for everybody? Is it good for the industry?
Talk about that. Yeah.
On a couple different levels, I'll I'll kind of reference
this. I would say that it's intent is
good that you know, we're we're intending, we're intending to
protect the horses and hopefullyprovide some level of
consistency across different jurisdictions.

(40:32):
So I think I think from an intent perspective, it's in the
right place in terms of the execution of it.
That's where you start to get into some interesting spaces.
And that the biggest challenge Ithink we have with HYSSA is that
you have a lot of administratorsthat not necessarily are equine

(40:54):
backgrounds or they are a littlebit more bureaucratic in nature,
let's just say, even if they have some background.
And so there's a lot of administration that's going into
this and we're asking our trainers and we're asking our
vets to provide a lot more papertrails and a lot more work has
to go in, in terms of just basicthings that we would just, we

(41:16):
would just do like, for example,if you have to get a vet now to
sign off before a horse breezes,And that wasn't something that
you would have to do before, youwould just say, you know, the
trainer has good knowledge of what horses are ready to breathe
or not. They feel like it needs a vet
check. They'll get a vet check.
I don't think that was necessarily problematic before,
But the regulators come in and say, no, we're not going to let

(41:38):
you breathe unless we have it a vet sign off on that.
So not only do you have to get it signed off, it's got to have
the paperwork. And if you missed the paperwork
or you lose the paperwork or youforget to file the paperwork and
then all of a sudden you've got a bunch of regulators coming
after you, even if you did all the right things.
So that part of it is not is a bit challenging, I would say for
for everybody involved. So it's, and then you've got

(41:59):
rules and stuff that they're applying.
And again, it's kind of like, does that really make sense or
not? Is it a safety issue or is this
a performance enhancer? You know, is adding Lasix to a
horse really going to put the horse in danger or is it going
to actually, you know, prevent the horse from, you know, from
bleeding and therefore it's a safety issue for them.
And so those are the kind of things that still need to get

(42:23):
sorted out to a large extent. And the wheels of government
don't necessarily move very fast.
And, and so it's, it's been a bit challenging, I think for the
racing industry and it's been a,it's been a hard adjustment for
a lot of people. And you know, hopefully we'll
get to some, some middle point. It's not quite as bureaucratic
or as administrative as it is. But for now, I think we're going

(42:45):
to we're just dealing with it asas is.
Right. And as an industry as a whole, I
mean, what do you hear from yourcolleagues?
Is it a similar sentiment sentiment?
Is that kind of the way most of them feel?
Yeah, I think most of the trainers are probably not very
happy about it. I think they feel like it's a
little bit more Big Brother looking over their shoulders.
And they've been doing this for,you know, 20304050 years.

(43:08):
And, you know, they, they wouldn't be in it still if they
weren't doing a good job, both from a safety and from a, a
performance perspective. They're not administrators, you
know, they're not necessarily the best terms of, you know,
crossing every T and dotting every I.
And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a lot
more, a lot more work. You know, they might even have
to hire some people to help withsome of the bookkeeping and some

(43:29):
of the some of the administration.
So, yeah, I don't think the trainers are very happy about
it. Other owners, I don't know if
other owners are that opinionated, opinionated.
The folks that are, you know, the spectators of the
handicappers, of the gamblers, not quite sure where they stand
on it. I think just more consistency
across race tracks is probably agood thing.
So you can't have a horse shipping from 1 jurisdiction to

(43:51):
another where the rules are going to be different
necessarily, especially when it comes to medications.
I think overall, I think it's probably not something that's
been completely well received. Right, which is an example.
And so it'll be interesting to see as far as a case study,
because that's one where everybody wants help and it's

(44:13):
the first step in how do we helpfrom a larger level.
And then you got to fine tune iton your way through.
And that was my whole point fromthe beginning about being more
responsible. None of us are perfect.
We've all got flaws, and competition will push us to do
compromise things. That's a known thing in

(44:34):
behavior. I think we could have avoided
the regulation if, if the different jurisdictions were
able to get on the same page, like if there was a national
commissioner, for example, that set the rules for for the
industry and they were to say, you know, regardless of where
you're racing, whether it's Pennsylvania, New York,
California, Florida, doesn't matter.

(44:54):
These are going to be the rules that that apply.
And you may not like it, but we're going to we're going to
make it uniform. And you can, you know, if
there's a process in which you can, you can, you know, amend or
or change or request that never happened from, from what I could
tell. And I'm not even sure how, how
much it was attempted. Everyone kind of punked to their
own spaces. And I think that's really when

(45:16):
the government stepped in and they were like, if you're not
going to do it, we're going to do it for you.
And that's that's kind of where we are today.
Which brings us back to that social license to operate, which
is a common theme. But as as the public becomes
more aware of everything around them, that's what it means.
And our pursuit to bring the goodness of horses to more
people, with it comes the responsibility of all of the

(45:39):
things that we're kind of talking about.
Jody, did you have something youwanted?
Oh, no, I mean, I'm finding the conversation very, very
interesting. I mean, I, I was sitting back
here listening to you guys and it's, it's really good.
And we, Brian and I've had this discussion, you know, Victor
many times. But you know, sooner or later,
the bottom line is always money,right?
It always comes down to money. And as long as that Kentucky

(46:01):
Derby, it, which is if you ask somebody off the street what's,
what's the thoroughbred, they say the Kentucky Derby.
I mean that they they want to watch the girls in their outfits
and they want to go, you know, Imean, that's what they want to
see and that's what they see. And as long as that race is on
television, we had this conversation that is the second
largest televised event next to the Super Bowl.

(46:22):
I can't even imagine how much money that race is worth.
And I don't, I don't know who actually makes the money if it's
Churchill Downs or if, I mean, Idon't know where who signs the
TV contracts. I, I, I don't know, doesn't
matter. But as long as that is there
with the, and the neat thing about racing, it's a little bit
different than than with our reining horses or with our
cutters, because it's easy to see who wins the fastest 1.

(46:46):
And with us, these judged eventswhere we're well, who spins
best, who stops best, who's, youknow, who works the cow best,
you know, that's a selective opinion from an official, but
that thing that crosses the finish line first is the winner.
And that is as simple as hell, which makes it very, very
popular for people to want to watch.
So I, I think as long as that horse race for the Belmont of

(47:07):
Preakness, those races, those high profile races, as long as
the message can get across from those major events, as long as
the trickle down works in a positive way for the whole
thoroughbred industry, it's positive.
But if it doesn't, then and maybe those guys need to be put
on board because if you don't have a horse race, you're not

(47:28):
going to have the Kentucky Derby.
I don't know what the answer is,but I do know that I do know
that huge amounts of money will affect lots of different things.
Yep, money has a funny way of ofdoing that, doesn't it now?
And there's a lot of money in the thoroughbred business for
sure, whether it's whether it's the auctions at Keeneland or
it's the big races like Breeders' Cup or or Triple

(47:50):
Crown. Yeah.
And worldwide too, not just not just here, but around the world.
That's right, That's right. Yeah, Ascot in England, you've
got the big races in France, you've got Dubai, who's got the
Dubai World Cup. Japan has got some some big
racing. So yeah, it's an international.
It's an international sport for sure.
Yeah, this board of kings, it's billed itself as that way for my

(48:14):
lifetime. Yeah, yeah.
Top stud is going to be $250,000just for just for, you know, one
season and they, they breed what, 100 plus, you know,
mirrors. So you could do the math.
It ends up pretty quickly. Yeah, incredible.
Jealous. What's your take on the

(48:34):
Internet? Is it a pro or a con?
Simulcasting, streaming, Internet broadcasting because
horse racing. You guys have had wagering
forever and you had simulcastingfor a long time, way before the
Internet even got strong, you know, off track betting places.
They were just corner stores. You can go in there.

(48:55):
I remember back in New York, youcan go in there and watch the
tracks in California run. So they've been ahead of that
curve. But is that a, is that good for
the sport to more people get involved with the sport?
And in today's time and Jody's in my world, it's a streaming
component. And even in today's sports

(49:15):
world, because ESPN is pushing streaming access and I actually
use it as an individual, I pay for their premium subscription
because of sports things that I want to watch when I want to
watch it. They got it.
So I go get it and it's, I wouldtell you it's cheap.
It's very affordable. It's cheaper than going to it in
person. So is that good for the horses?

(49:37):
Is that good for horse racing, Bad for horse racing?
Yes. It's a different function.
Being at any event live is very different than watching it
broadcast. That's true.
But the consumer knows all of that, right?
So that it's not like some smokescreen.
Yeah. But I think it's a yeah, I think
it's a necessity. I think you have to do this.

(49:58):
If you don't, you're going to, you're going to really, you're
going to limit your space and your audience substantially.
It does bring a lot more visibility to the different race
tracks. It we can definitely help with
regard to handle. I think a lot of the handle is
now coming from Internet and most of your wagering is
probably not done on track. I don't think those days along

(50:19):
behind us. So I think for the business to
survive it's a necessity. But I also do think that having
access to races through the various streaming services is a
reasonable alternative if you'reunable to make it down to the
racetrack yourself. And for me, I've got there I am
at the racetrack for for me, yeah.

(50:41):
Yeah, you know, I've got I've. Got horse tracks so I had to.
I've got horses in different places, I've got horses on the
East Coast and on the West Coastand I just can't get on the
plane every time the horse is going to be entered.
So for me, it's great being ableto watch one of my horses race
on a simulcast, but I'm not ableto be there.
So, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's net net good for for

(51:02):
the industry overall. And maybe we can get more
eyeballs on it too with more streaming services if we can
interact with the races too. Whether you're wagering or just
picking the winners, that's always something people like to
do to get a get, get two people or more in a room.
And you know, you're going to be, you're going to be thinking,
you know, whether it's fun wagers or real wagers, you're
going to be better on who's going to who's going to win that

(51:23):
race. So.
Oh, for sure. Yeah.
So, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's a net positive
overall though. Victor to do the tracks today
because it's been so long since I've been to one.
I mean, we may head into Oklahoma City to watch horses
run at Remington or something like that.
But do do the tracks have a do the tracks have a meet and greet
day or people can come in off the street and pet a horse and

(51:47):
you need a jockey and do they doany of that?
Or is it is that something that that doesn't happen?
You just don't watch the. Race, I don't really see too
much of that as much. I'm trying to think if there's
been a meet and greet. Not, not really.
They have each of the tracks does have a club similar to like
the myracing.com, but not quite as big.
You know, it's like $500 versus maybe, maybe 250.

(52:10):
And for those clubs, like Emerald Down has an Emerald Down
Racing Club for those clubs, they'll do exactly what you're
talking about. You can come in and they'll have
events. You can meet the trainer, you
can have a paddock session. They'll do a tram tour of the
backstretch. You get to meet, you know, some
of the personalities on the racetrack to an extent.
Yeah. So I think that that's available
for for folks you're seeing other promotions as well.

(52:33):
The tracks are starting to get creative with some of their
promotion activities. I'll use Emerald Downs again as
an example, since I'm local for Emerald Downs.
But they have what's called a grandparents race and they put
grandparents in the starting gate and have them run 100 yards
and you know, have have have thewinter and that that's actually
on YouTube. You could probably look that up
on YouTube and watch that they have AT Rex Race where they've
got these, you know, giant Tyrannosaurus Rex costumes and

(52:57):
they do the same thing. They they did a camel race as
well. So they do some and then they
have the corgi races as well every year.
So they bring in a lot of a lot of spectators for for those type
of events. And they have Indian relay
races. They do different types of
events on different weekends andthat that tends to actually
bring in more, more folks to thelive racing.
And they've done a pretty good job actually in Washington and

(53:18):
bringing people to the racetrack.
But other areas, you know, I don't, I don't know how active
their promotion departments are.I think if you do more of that
though, you'll you'll, you'll attract more spectators to the
to the game. Right, Yeah, I, I, I agree.
I think, like I said, any, any opportunity that that you can

(53:38):
give a person to have that same.You know, I, I, I talked to
Brian about this and we talked about the intercollegiate deal
and the girls that I go coach atOklahoma State University.
I said, you know, every little girl that's from 6 to 10 years
old that maybe thinks that she wants to go on a scholarship, we
should have the opportunity to come and meet and pet a horse,
something that ignites that samepassion that you found, you

(54:00):
know, all all by yourself. They just need help coming.
Kids love horses. Girls love horses.
Good Lord. You know, I mean, they just.
Yeah. So it's like they just need they
just need to be steered in the right direction.
I think. So instead of going to find that
bus that you guys had to with a without mom and dad knowing
this, there just needs to be a way that a parent can take a kid
and say here, let's go. You know, I think it would be

(54:22):
fun. Yeah, I agree.
I totally agree. Well, I would tell you that
that's organized activity at thevenue level because it doesn't
matter if it's a track or a horse arena or a sporting arena
or any of those things, that's where it is.
And so our show producers, our show management, we've got to

(54:44):
think differently because the experience in person is dynamic.
And do we need more people to always be there in person at
horse events? My answer would be yes, all day.
And then can you expand that audience for the peak of the
competition? I find this fascinating when we

(55:06):
talk about the Kentucky Derby, it's because they have a four
hour broadcast for a 2 1/2 minute race.
So, you know, they're getting creative with doing that.
Now, a lot of that is because they're competing for the
attention of the sports audienceon broadcast.
Got it. But the fact that they've been
able to do it, take a 2 minute race and turn it into a four

(55:29):
hour show, that's that's like pretty impressive.
So I think we could be doing some of that.
I'm not talking about the broadcast because I think our
that stuff speaks for itself. It's how do we get creative in
two different spaces, one at thevenue, so the experience of
being in person stays dynamic and stays extremely positive.
And the second is the quality ofthe program that's going out

(55:52):
across the Internet. Yeah.
I was going to say, yeah, I was going to say to that point to
that venues at the the the NBCI think they're the ones that
carry the Kentucky Derby. They do a really nice job of a
building up to the race and theyintroduce so you know nothing
about who's entered in the race at all.

(56:14):
But they do a lot of this drama in terms of just just getting
you interested in the different horses in the back story.
And, and they kind of build up that sort of competition that's
going to happen when the race actually then does happen.
So that by the time they actually, you know, break from
the gate, you've probably have formed some opinion on who you
want to see win the race just because of what they showed you

(56:36):
in the three or four hours leading up to that.
And if we can create that sort of drama, so to speak, you know
what, what regardless of what the race is, whether it's a
local race or, or, or something,you know, two individuals that
that are at the top of the classand they're going to, they're
going to end up competing against each other.
As long as you can kind of buildthat drama and provide a little

(56:56):
bit of those back stories, you can you can perhaps recreate
some of that interest for viewers that may not be as
familiar with with the event of the sport.
Really good. Good.
Well, Victor, tell us what you what do you want to leave folks
with regarding your book and thestory?
What is the most powerful piece?They all need to get it.

(57:19):
We'll we'll put the links on where your website.
They can order it on Amazon as well as barnesandnoble.com.
It's a great read, but tell us what's the most powerful piece
you want to leave the reader. I would say definitely buy the
book for for sure. And I think for me, just get
yourself really deep into the story, relate to the different

(57:42):
characters, understand the different personalities that
exist. Put yourself on the back
stretch, put yourself sort of inthe in, in the, in the head of
the protagonist and kind of ridewith him, so to speak, through
the through the journey that he goes through.
Because he does, he does also gothrough this evolution to a
large extent with regard to, youknow, starting out as a bookie
and as as a handicapper. And then he starts to kind of

(58:05):
get that bug with regard to his sort of feel and passion for the
horse itself. So, you know, kind of go on that
journey with our protagonist andjust, you know, get deep into
the story and enjoy it. And well, I, like I said, it's a
it's a work of fiction, but there is a lot of fact woven in
the into this book. So I guess that I can't
recommend it enough, especially if someone hasn't experienced
the horse race before. Backside of the track.

(58:27):
Read the book. It'll give you a great feel and
it'll make you feel good. Definitely.
Yeah. But.
Gentlemen, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure.
Victor, we can't thank you enough for sharing your book,
your story. We love the conversation.
This is very personal for me. Horses are good for people,
there's no doubt about that. And should people, and our

(58:51):
people are good for horses as well, We've certainly made their
life much, much better in today's time than it ever would
have been if they were still outon the range.
So we appreciate it. Your story's fantastic.
Your passion for the horses is outstanding.
We will put the links in accordingly so that people can
get to it. It'll be down below.
You can purchase it at Amazon.com, Barnes and

(59:13):
nobles.com. You can visit
[e-mail]. All of that will be included.
And we can't thank you enough, Victor.
So we. Appreciate it.
Thank you. Yeah, so, so appreciative of you
having me on your show. It's been great to chat with you
and I really enjoyed our our discussions as well.
I love your passion for, for thehorses and, and what you're

(59:35):
trying to do for the business too.
So, you know, keep doing what you're doing and, and let's,
let's fight the good fight here.We'll do that.
Victor, thank you so very much. I, you know, Brian, I can never
tell. I mean, I don't even know how I
found you, actually. I mean, you know, he, he, he's,
he gets on the Internet and he'sgot he, you know, and all of a
sudden it's like, hey, I got this guy.
He's going to make a great story.
It's like, OK, and you know what?

(59:56):
It's fantastic. I don't know where he he, I
mean, he's everywhere, right? I mean that that computer never,
I don't think it ever shuts off with that guy.
But anyway, so, so very nice to have met you and I wanna meet
you in person. Hopefully we'll have the
opportunity to do that at a racetrack somewhere, but.
Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

(01:00:16):
By all means, let me know and I'll try to meet you up
somewhere. OK, perfect.
Well. And I'll, I'll try to get out to
one of your I'd like to get to that one of your events.
I think it's OK. C is where you have your your.
Absolutely. We have several.
We have several of them. And you know, we've got a mix.
There's a dozen plus 15 major, we call them major events here

(01:00:37):
in Scottsdale, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Columbus, OH.
They're even, they're in CentralFlorida, so they're around.
So could we coordinate anyone ofcombining whether it's at a
track and or one of our major events, we'd love it, Victor.
I, I I'm all up for that. So yeah, it sounds like a plan
for me. Let's let's put something

(01:00:58):
together. OK.
Well, I'll, I'll need your lead on these those events though,
and we'll, we'll figure one out.Yep, we'll do it.
Until next time, enjoy the ride.Stay in the middle.
See you guys. Thank you.
In today's episode is brought toyou by 40 productions in
cooperation with the consultant agency, a full service agency

(01:01:19):
that helps bring forward thinking equine brands into the
21st century using digital skills and services such as
website development, graphic design, social media and media
production such as the podcast you're consuming here today.