Ep #41 No Foot No Horse with D.J. Stox

Shoeing high performance western horses in today's market.

Where is our industry headed?

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Welcome to the Cowboy Office Show where you'll experience
expert analysis and epic discussion on key pillars of the
equine industry including sports, business, hobby and the
horse lifestyle. Your Co hosts are Jodi Brainerd
and Brian Deichert, industry veterans with over 120 years
combined living the cowboy lifestyle.
The Cowboy Office Show will helpyou get involved, ask more

(00:25):
questions and create change. We'll keep riding for you as
together we learn from the ride.Already ridden?
Learn to listen better to our horse and make our industry
better for all. Each episode will take a ride
around the industry in less timethan you can.
Load [e-mail]
to receive updates and never miss an episode.
Settle up as we ride into today's show.

(00:49):
Hello, horse world, they say. No foot, no horse.
As Teddy Roosevelt said, the credit goes to the man in the
arena. But what about the man under the
horse? The farrier?
No foot, no horse. Ride with us by going to
cowboyoffice.com. Put your e-mail in and don't
forget to hit the subscribe button.

(01:09):
Welcome the cowboy office. I'm Brian.
Hey, and I'm Jody like to welcome our guest today.
We've got the man under the horse with us.
When it comes to shoe and a horse, you must know what you're
doing as you need a good team you can rely and trust on.
And that is so important becauseI made a living on these things
for like on top of them for like45 years.
But good ground, good judges andgood purses and good shoers,

(01:33):
right? We would like to welcome DJ
Stocks prominent highly experienced farrier from North
Carolina DJs Been shooing Rainers for 23 years,
apprenticed under Dwight Sandersfor a couple years.
He shot multiple major event finalists.
Been a farrier for Peter Dafridis, Mike McIntyre, Bryant
Pace and many others. DJ currently shoes for Danny

(01:56):
Pelletier and Mark Rayfax, several non pros in eastern
North Carolina. DJ you're 52 years old.
I'm not sure why he had to put that in there, for crying out
loud, but hoping to be involved in the sport of raining for the
remainder of the career. At least 20 more years.
Like to welcome you to Cowboy office.
We're so glad you're here. You, Sir.
We're going to talk about the industry just a little bit
before we get into your specifics, DJ and from your

(02:18):
point of view, because everything in the Western stock,
horse discipline, side cutters, rainers, cow horses, prize
money's up, prices of horses is way up.
Competition is as stiff as we'veever seen it.
And as the industry kind of says, you know what it's, it's
all growing and going forward. So from your eyes and your point

(02:42):
of view, how do you how do you see the current status of the
industry and where do you see usgoing?
Well, I don't know exactly wherewe're going.
I need a crystal ball for that. But I will say that with the
purses being as big as they are now, with the amount of horse
shows that they are now, I will say that the pressure has been
turned way up on everybody from the trainers or to the fair, to

(03:05):
the vents, and especially the horses.
The horses are the ones that ultimately all the pressure
falls on. So that's what I see with these
big persons and not just the bigpersons.
Bangs are so publicized now and where we're at today.
Used to be you could win a big event and nobody would actually
see the run unless you ordered the DVD set or something from

(03:28):
the finals. And here we are today where
people watch it live around the world while it's happening, but
then it's it's watched another 100 million times on YouTube,
Facebook, wherever. All these things, I think, have
added a lot of pressure. Yeah, without a doubt.
Without a doubt. I.
Think that's, excuse me, Ryan, go ahead.

(03:49):
Do you feel the pressure? The farrier is so crucial to an
advanced athlete. They're crucial, period.
But in our world, it's, it's theadvanced disciplines of the
Western stock horse. So you know, the farrier and the
job of the farrier is absolutelycrucial, keeping those feet
balanced and keeping those horses as sound as they can.

(04:10):
And so when we've got these kinds of prices on horses,
whether you're buying, selling, wanting to do either one of
those and or competing, you got to be feeling that pressure too.
Is that not true? Absolutely.
Depending on the customer, you know, different customers
handle, The better your customerhandles pressure, the better
they are at applying the pressure to use.

(04:33):
If they can handle it, it usually shrinkles down.
If they can't handle it, it usually comes down with a boom.
So yeah, I feel it. I definitely feel it.
I get that and I think I've, I've tried to often times and
thank God actually that, that I've had very few barriers

(04:55):
because the, the ones that I find, they stay with me for 1520
years, right? I mean, that's, they're good
guys. I want them and that's how it
works. It's I don't have to jump around
and look for different shoers. And I've always tried to
simplify a little bit. I think it's sometimes it's a
little bit on the backward side because I've, you know, I've got
a very good and experienced shoer and I've always was of the

(05:17):
mindset that less is more. So, you know, if it's not broke,
don't try to fix it. You know, and sometimes, you
know, I'll go to someone else's barn and I'd see somebody
shoeing horses. And it's like, you know, they're
trying to get, they're doing a lot of stuff that I'm like my
shoe worse are the guys that I would use over the years, very,
very good, good at corrective work.

(05:39):
But I would tell them, look, youmake your living doing this and
you are the one that's under these things.
I'm riding them. And I said, and they'll say,
well, what do you want done? And I say, you know what, I've
got a good horse. I don't have any issues with it.
Shoe him the way he stands and my shoeers would say absolutely.
And I'll say you're the one showing him, you're the one

(05:59):
making living him. You're the one that you do this.
If I got an issue, I'll tell youto change it, but don't ask me
how to shoe the horse because you're the professional shoe my
horse. I want to go to the pen and I
want to go, I'm going to go do good.
But you're the man. So, and if I have an issue, I
got 1 spreading or I've got something we may, we need to
tinker with a little bit, then I'll give you some input.
But I, I've given hats off to myguys that are underneath the

(06:21):
horses because hell, they know more than me about that.
That's the way I've always felt.So I've, I've tried to take a
little bit of pressure off thoseguys because you're good at what
you do. So that's kind of the way I've
looked at it. I think sometimes trainers try
to get give so much input and they have no idea, just an
opinion. Well, I will say there was some

(06:44):
the years I think a trainer thatgoes through a whole lot of
horseshoes. I think there's there's a
problem on his ear. He can't be satisfied.
It's not that he didn't have a good failure somewhere along the
way. It's either he couldn't be
satisfied or he applied too muchpressure and you know, he just
he ran them off. So when you when you see a

(07:06):
trainer that that stays with a horseshoe for a long period of
time and a lot of your top notch, top level trainers like
for Pawnee and and Deary and them their their horseshoers
have been with them for a long time.
I'm praised with with both of those guys shores and we talk
about, you know, how how they communicate, how they do things.

(07:26):
So yeah, those are guys that arethat are definitely feeling a
lot of pressure, top notch horses, top dollar horses,
customers expecting big results out of their horses and it and
it all just runs right downhill.And but those guys, you know,
they keep their farriers and they keep a solid program.
And that farriers part of it. If I had to say to, I remember,

(07:49):
if I could say this right quick,I told Peter de Freitas, I
remember how many years ago whenhe first he first left Mike
Mcintyre's and he went down to Monica Watts.
It's a double run. I was shooting for him down
there. Me and Peter are are still good
friends. We're really good friends and
we're still really good friends today.
I think he's out in Texas and they're at whites in whites
where I believe I talked to him on a regular basis.

(08:11):
But anyway, I I told Peter, I said the more you look at you
and the less you look at the shoe and and the things around
you, the more you can accept on you, the better worst trainer
you're going to be in the end. And Peter's had two horseshoe
saves me and that's been a long time.

(08:34):
And Peter's come along. You know, Peter's come a long
way. And do well.
But I and do it and do it very well.
But like I said, I, I told him way back then, I said don't,
don't, don't put so much pressure.
Yeah, that was a situation. Mike can put some pressure on my
guy and that's what Michael was there so and he will laugh about

(09:01):
it. But yeah, Mike McIntyre pussy
pressure on her cup. Right, Totally, totally
understandable. And I've known Mike for a
really, really long time, so I get it, I really do.
But yeah, I, I think that, you know, sometimes that sometimes
the, the horseshoers maybe, or even the veterinarians are
sometimes are easy to blame for shortcomings in a pen.

(09:22):
Sometimes, you know, rightfully and sometimes it, I mean, it's a
sure change can make a big difference.
There's no question about that. I'm not saying that, but but
sometimes it's a little bit of aconvenient scapegoat when when
maybe that's, that's not the issue at hand.
So I, I've seen both sides of it.
I I understand it. That's none of it's easy, but.
Yes, and A and a good horn shooter is like a good horse

(09:44):
trainer. If I'm having trouble with a
horseshoe. Not too long ago I was
struggling with a horse, a really good little horse and
they do it Derby non pro finals level 4 and the NRBC level 4
finals when I was struggling with him and trying to get him
straightened out. He's a big stopper and I was
having trouble with him and I, Isent when he was up in Tennessee
show and I got Dale the priest to go and look at him like 3

(10:06):
days after I shot him. I said Dale, if you're going to
be there, if you would go look at this horse and and give me
you know what you think. And so they all went and looked
at him and came back to me and told me and then still had
trouble with him. So I sent him out there and I
said, Hey, y'all, why don't y'all get Phillip the shoe in
out there, see if Phillip can get sucked.
So you, you got to be able to put your fire to the side and

(10:28):
you got to be able to let another guy step in and try and
help, you know, because we're a 10 year man.
That's what I tell all my people.
I said I'm on a team and I, I want to do what's best with the
team. And so that's the only part of
getting better. All part of this, you know,
trying to, to see the horse rides to the top.
And so that's that's the way I try to complete my business.

(10:50):
But it's it's really a team that's focused on the horse.
And that's the part that I thinka lot of people get lost on the
the horse seems to be second, third, somewhere else down that
line as opposed to putting them up in the front of the line.
And what does the horse need? And many times I, I think your
point, DJ, is very valid on getting a fresh set of eyes to

(11:13):
look at whatever the scenario isand more eyes, more minds or
better and trying to solve whatever that dilemma is, right?
That's what you're talking about.
Exactly, I can't tell you how many times I've stood beside a
warm up pen and watched the top trainers in the country AT2O
clock in the morning help each other with horses and and I've
even seen them, you know, swap ass horses and and one get on

(11:33):
one to ride it. You know, there's, there's a lot
to be learned from that and you have to be able to put your
pride to the side and deal with these things to try and get
better and grow and be better. And like you said, it's for the
horse. If I can learn something from
this horse from a, from a different failure, different set
of eyes, it will only help me tohelp the next horse.

(11:54):
And as I've rang up and matured in my in life and in my
business, the thing that I've taken more notice of is the eye
of a horse. When you look into a horses, the
eye. That is why we love horses, that
something so powerful and so, soeasily could could do all kinds

(12:16):
of things we don't know what to do, but yet can be so willing
and so submissive and so humble.I'm always trying to further
myself that I can be better for the horse.
I think that's that's just an excellent point.
And I've had in my shoers, I, you know, I mean the my last
best and who's Mike Edwards, who's who's passed ahead for

(12:39):
lots and lots of years and just to and I, I would say this, you
know, Mike was a horseman, right?
He's just not just a tradesman, he's a horseman.
And and he'd get so mad at me because I, you know, I mean,
like every trainer that your horseshoer has to drive, you
know, hour and a half or 90 minutes to you know, you, you

(12:59):
have you have a horse step on a slider, turn around.
You better be able to nail it back on just because we're
trying to save the guy the trip.And I said, you know, you old
hold them and whatever, it's fine.
And I you know, of course then Iwould get the, you know, a
three-year old, go tie it to wash rack, get my shoe box out.
I'm mad because and I'm, you know, instead of being patient
with this individual, I'm and he's not standing still for me

(13:21):
and I'm and Mike comes back and he said do not do that again.
He said just call me. I'll make the drive because I
made his job harder. I mean, I've made his job
harder. He'd go get underneath this
thing and he'd go panic and because I'm banging on it
because it won't stand still. And he's like, do not do that.
So but Mike was a horseman. I mean, he would, you know, he'd

(13:42):
get a good read on these things and maybe you get, you know, I
think your equipment has made such a big difference, you know,
those cradles and stuff like that that you guys have to use
now. And 50 years ago, you didn't
have that when I was a kid and everything was on your knee.
And you know, Mike could be like, you know, this one of
these things that have a little maybe a mayor was having a hard
time standing and he'd he'd lower that cradle maybe, you
know, 6 or 8 inches and all the sudden she's like, OK, I'm good

(14:04):
with this. You know, I mean, just he was
that aware of maybe that little 6 inch change in that, in that
leg made that thing comfortable to stand still.
So that's a horseman. And I, I appreciate you saying
that because I believe that because you're under them,
you're not just a tradesman. I believe the horses.
Yeah. I mean, you believe in them too.
You work. We can never lose sight of the

(14:26):
fact that no matter how he's bred, no matter who's training
Barney's in, no matter what horse show he's going to, I'm
not going to. We're there for the horse.
We are there to do what's in thebest interest of the horse and
recommend what is best for him and we can't lose sight of that

(14:47):
for anything. I mean we always have to put the
horses best interest first. Tell me, tell me, are there
enough failures out there in today's industry?
Yes or no? How about Are there enough?
Are you? Running for elected office
somewhere. It's one or the other.
It's not both. Amen.

(15:12):
Yes, there, there are plenty of barriers out there, but I'm
going to tell you and I don't consider myself to be one of
those elite barriers, but I willtell you that there, there are
only a hands on that are what I would call super good.
And like I said, Oh, I, I'd liketo consider myself, I'd like to

(15:35):
put myself in a in a book or in a boat is silent for sure.
But I mean, I always know there's somebody around the
corner that can do it better. And I'm always looking for
advice from that person. Like I said earlier, I keep some
of the guys that I'm talking about, you know, Andrea Schuer,
Eric Bolden, Casey's Schuer glance Bradley.
I keep those guys on speed dial And you know, I'll, I'll send

(15:58):
pictures and videos and whatnot back and forth with those guys
in a minute and, and trial like said.
And Dale got a lot of respect for that guy.
Schuer I land from women to bestDwight Sanders.
He he was one of the best in hisday and I still got him There's
right around the corner from me,stops by my house watching me
shoot horses when I'm here, y'all.
So I'm very blessed to have people around me with a lot of

(16:20):
dollars and maybe a lot more talent than I have there to
coach me through some situations.
Sometimes I'm very appreciative of that.
But I'm never, I've never tried to put my, I try not to never
let my pride get in the way of making those phone calls or
reaching out to those guys because I do consider those guys
to be elite. And in your mind, in your mind,

(16:41):
what's the separation to an elite small group of special
farriers versus excelled tradesmen like yourself?
In your mind, how do you what, what's that distinction?
What's the difference of that? Just so much experience, just so
much experience and having access to so much knowledge.
Those guys have have had access to some of the top vets and you

(17:07):
know, some knowledge that and I'm not cutting any of the bets
around me. I mean, we have, we have good
bets around me. It's not that we don't, but
those guys have some of just from a larger scale like, you
know, I might work with a vet here and there.
They work with vets all the time, larger barns, larger

(17:28):
numbers, larger quantities of higher end horses, you know, So,
yeah, I, I think they're just exposed.
And then, you know, like I said a while ago, the pressure first,
it takes pressure to make a diamond.
And I think that's what's made those guys.
What they are is the pressure that they've been on there for
so long. I think it's, it's made them
what they are. And I'm just thankful that

(17:48):
they're willing to give out their knowledge so freely.
Are those guys, man, they've been awesome to me.
They begin, they'll fly me, they'll they'll let me fly out,
spend a week with them, ride around with them.
They buy me dumbers. They they let me stay at their
house. And I think these guys are just
been awesome to me. And it's it's a it's a it's AI
have some community. It's not the community that runs
around. You know, a lot of people think

(18:10):
that every fray you're bad mouths each other and and that
we don't get along. But no, it's, it's, I thought
when you get to a certain place in the industry, you're, you're
going to find a bunch of guys that who are just like you are
looking for the best for the horse and that do whatever they
got to do to find the best for that horse.
I think that's a really, really good point.
And I and I think, you know, youbrought that, you brought that

(18:30):
bad mouthing thing up with the shoe.
I've always felt like from a from a training standpoint, the
top end of this stuff, I've mentioned this, we've talked
about it and but you know, there's been a lot of times I've
sent a horse to somebody that I think will fit that horse better
than me. And I've had over the years, a
dozen of them sent to me that from guys that are damn sure
capable, but said, I think you'll be longer with some

(18:52):
better than I am. So at the high end of it, you,
there's never an issue with it. And I, you know, I think that
that's not a problem. And I think from the shoeing
standpoint, you know, the guys that I've had over the years are
so good, they just shake it off.But you know, it's around every
corner. Somebody that's maybe that
doesn't have your attitude. And when you said, you know,
you're always trying to learn, those guys are always trying to

(19:15):
try to convince a client that they know a better way.
And it's like, those are the first ones that I shy away from
so fast to make your hit. But I it's not a simple thing
because you're, you're supposed to be, you know, a tradesman at
a craft. And it is a craft.
It's not a hell, it's an artwork.
I mean, and yeah. And it's a darn near in the

(19:35):
medical field if you're working with the veterinarians enough
too. So it's a, it's a, you have to
wear a lot of different hats just to shoe a horse.
So I, I, I, I am way, way in agreement with you.
And I'm glad to hear it that you, that there's that group at
that level. You guys work together.
And there's a reason that those guys want you coming out there
and want you with them for a week because they're learning

(19:57):
something from you too. I mean, you, you're maybe not
saying that, but I'll promise you that's the case.
So anyway, I'm I'm happy to hearyou say that.
Just just speaking the truth to like I said this, this industry
has has giving me so much more than I ever imagined that it
could. You know, connections with
people around the world. As y'all know, you know, you get

(20:20):
into this business and you're going to meet people not around
the corner, but from around the world.
And I've learned to try and takefull advantage of everyone that
I have access to. I I try to take full advantage
of what they know and what they can help me with.
Good for you. And do you see the next
generation coming in your trade?Do you see the next generation

(20:45):
of young farriers wanting to enter the market?
Brian, that's a tough question right there.
I have a couple in my neighborhood that that wanted to
ride with me a little bit said, you know, express their interest
as she went riding horses and today I want to ride with you
and and they'll ride for a day, They'll ride for two days and
and they go. I have a young man now that
helps me down in Florida is theywill start Kyle Katie.

(21:06):
He is this guy wants to do good.This guy wants to learn.
This guy ask questions stays in there all day long.
He's not just there for a paycheck.
He wants to learn, but he is theexception to the rule.
There's one of him for 20 who just want to ravage you one day
and figure out what they can andgetting that one day and then

(21:29):
they go. So let me ask this question.
It's not a simple one, but it isit can be.
It can be asked because I still,you know, I retired, emptied the
barn out and, you know, years ago, but still have some people
who want to come and ride with me and they, you know, I mean,
they'll come and and you know, there's a there's a good gal
that I've had as a client for 20years and she's always had a

(21:50):
couple little backyard Rainers ranch rail horses, that kind of
stuff kind of trains her owner. She'll send one out to a trainer
for me for a year or whatever when I was riding for wouldn't
be just because financially it didn't, she couldn't afford it,
right? I mean, there's a lot of people
that love horses and have a great little backyard program.
But, you know, paying a horse trainer full time is expensive.

(22:14):
And she said, you know, I don't know, she's probably got 3 or so
in her yard, but she said, yeah,I'm spending $1000 a month
shoeing horses. And I looked at her like, and it
sounds kind of crazy, but you know, 12,000 bucks coming out of
somebody's budget is, is a big one if you're not.
And we're not talking about the show horse barn here.

(22:35):
We're not talking about these guys.
We're not talking about the $250,000 horses.
And we're not talking about the people that have the clients
that can afford to pay that no matter what.
I mean, we have to have guys at your level.
We have to have you to shoe our Rainers.
We do. But what about that?
Is there a spot in there somewhere that you can have

(22:56):
someone? You know, I mean, I don't paint.
I've got 2 backyard old retired horses.
They're 25 years old. They're my wives and they're
going to live forever just to torture me, right?
So they, they absolutely aren't going to die.
So the Shearer comes in and he shoes these and he's, he trims
these guys and it's, you know, it's 5 minutes a foot because
their feet aren't in bad shape. And it's 15 bucks a foot.

(23:17):
It's 60 bucks now to trim a horse.
And I said, what the hell, I'll better get my toolbox back out
and go trimming because you don't have that big investment
when you're trimming feet. You know, you got a set of
nippers and a wrap. There's not that big truck of
yours with the forges and everything that you have to have
power tools and grinders. So is there a spot somewhere?

(23:39):
Is there somebody that can fill in that niche market from a
standpoint of, and I'm not saying it's not worth it, but
what one of those guys at a little bit of lower level that
really wants to learn. Do you, would you think about
passing some of that business off one of those guys if you had
more than you could do or would you say no?
I mean, I I just can't have thatbecause their quality of work
wouldn't be good enough for it. No, I actually pass it off all

(24:03):
the time. The problem is the reason why
you can't pass it off is becausethey found out what you're
charging and then they go in charge.
Same thing. Basically, they have your
experience right? Yeah, they say, what are you
charging for a reigning horse? And you know, I remember when I
apprenticed with Dwight Sanders,I was doing exactly what you're
talking about. He was chewing the cream of the

(24:24):
crop and I was getting those worms that were coming and
saying, hey, Dwight, can you shoot my two horses?
And he said, no, I ain't got time to DJ shoe him.
And I was going over and I was shooting him for $4050 less a
horse than what he was back then.
And that's been a while. But these guys now young fellow
called me a few years ago. He said, hey, I know how to

(24:46):
shoot horses. I don't need nobody to teach me
how to shoot horses. I just need to know some tricks
on these rainers. Oh boy, Yeah, I said.
I said, oh boy, I said. That's what I said.
Oh boy. I said, yeah.
I said if you if you think you're going to trick and
gimmick your way through a raining horseshoe, you got
another thing coming. He went out charge same.
He said, what are you getting tocharge a riding horse?

(25:06):
And I told him and he went immediately right out and
started charging the same thing.Yeah, it with with no
experience. Yeah, it's a yeah.
Crazy. I I had we're actually getting
ready to do some construction ona new house and and we're
talking to get the builder that we've got under contract.
And he was talking about like something not getting too far

(25:28):
off base. But he's talking about, he said
he missed a big bid on a house because he said they wanted a
lot of tile work done. And he said I haven't used any
tilers in a long time. And he said I got the videos.
It is 100% more than I thought it was going to be.
And he said, I got talking to these guys like, are you nuts?
And they said there isn't anybody else.
We don't have any young guys that are wanting to come in and
spend all day on their knees. There isn't any, there isn't

(25:50):
anybody else. So they're charging what they
want to because they've got so much work, they can't do it.
So I there's something to be said for experience in the
payroll and it's the scale. But you know, when you're an
independent contractor like we all are, even in the horse
training deal when I was, you know, we had the barn full.
Everybody's competitive, but they're there's certainly some,

(26:12):
certainly some spots where some guys shouldn't be making as much
until they've had the years under the belt to to be as good
as that, to be as good as someone like yourself, a
tradesman like yourself who spent 30 years or however much
time you spent doing this job instead of I just got out of
farrier school, so I need to make the same money you are.
It's like, yeah, I know you don't.
So anyway, that's a that's a tough spot.

(26:35):
It is. Yeah, there's a, there's a
horseshoe or that has a little thing anyway, he says.
Everybody's got to go through the suck and it sucks to go
through the suck. And there's no business, there's
no business where that's more true than the horse industry.
Whether you're coming along and,and riding these things and, or

(26:55):
whether you're coming along as an apprentice to a horseshoe or,
or, or whatever. And, and we all, every one of us
had to go through the suck to, to, to get to where we're going.
So when those guys come in behind you and you see those
ones who are, are dodging the bullet, so to speak, and, and
don't want to, they don't want to put in that time and they
don't want to get serious about it, but they find out what

(27:16):
you're charging them and they gocharging it.
And, and that's how I wind up with so many.
I don't want to carry on backyard horses.
They're in the backyard, they'reat home.
They're not with a trainer, but they're good horses.
A lot of them are still, you know, good competitive horses.
And that's, that's how you wind up with them because the other
guy if, if they're going to pay that much, they might as well

(27:36):
pay who they think is give him the best, you know?
Right. Absolutely.
Yeah, there's no and there's no,there's no easy way around that
too, because it's like it's justa it's, it's the nature of the
beast, that's for sure. And I think that that suck thing
you're talking about, sometimes in trainers careers, it can
happen more than once. You know, you have a whole barn

(27:57):
full of really good horses and you win a lot.
Then all of a sudden you go through that two year spell when
you're first kind of trying to get established and all of a
sudden all those good ones aren't there anymore and
downhill, you got to go right back to the grinder again, you
know. So it's a yeah, the horse
business, like I said, the cowboy all talk about it all the
time. It's not a simple thing.
And especially now with the amount of money that's being
spent on these things, it's a it's, yeah, some people's pay

(28:21):
scale has an increase to what the expense of the training and
the shooting is cost on these things.
So it's a it's, it's hard. It's true.
And then, well, one of the things that makes it so
expensive now is a lot of us guys, we cover a lot of
territory. We, we, we drive a long ways,
you know, and you can't, you can't take off on a 1986 Ford

(28:42):
put with a tamper shell on him and expect to get there and then
have everything you need. So, you know, we, we told him a
pretty big inventory, very expensive inventory in our
trucks. Or like you said, there's,
there's power tools to help you do your job better and more
efficiently. It just costs so much.
And then I don't know if we'll get into this on this, in this,

(29:04):
in this episode of this conversation, but I'm finding
that we're having to use more and more therapeutic type
shooting on these things now of the days of old.
And so you got to carry all thatstuff, which you, and then you
have to have the, the knowledge and ability to, to put it on.

(29:26):
And I run on this all the time. We are the tribe that, and I
say, well, hold on, sometimes it's not the appliance, it's the
application of the appliance. You know, same as riding one.
Same bit, different hands, different results.
And so talk about that for a minute, because between science
research and barriers and horse athletic performance, soundness,

(29:51):
all the issues we have to deal with, we're finding all these
new discoveries. And so you bring it up with
therapeutic practices with what you're dealing with, which is
shoeing a horse. And so which is the obvious part
because the horse's feet are what touching the ground and
they're supporting that everything.
So, chalk, do you go to annual symposium?

(30:16):
How are you all communicating and cooperating in the best
interest of the horse? Wow, we just I just had a
conversation with some a couple of guys the other day, both of
them shooting some of the best horses in the country, horses
that are winning to run for a million horses that are winning,
you know, to charities, beasts for charity and The Dirty.

(30:38):
And one of the things that we'venoticed is horses are there's a
lot of horses starting to come down the Pike that stand
underneath themselves in the front end.
They say if you know what a campback underneath themselves in
the front end. And that's because those horses
turn if we breed and turners areturners and stoppers and
stoppers. And so we're going to have a

(30:59):
certain amount of sickle hot horses and we're going to have a
certain amount. And these horses that turn them,
they're natural turners, you know, they're natural Turner.
Then the inside of it is going to be a better Turner.
And a lot of these things are are starting with staying
camping underneath themselves puts a lot of pressure around
that ankle and down which and and it's something that you just

(31:21):
can't correct with shoes. You can never achieve that angle
because the where the leg standsis so bad.
And that's a corner that we're painting ourselves into.
And I think that people who are bringing these things, they need
to start looking at that a little bit.
Which then that brings us down the breeding path.
That conversation that we're having in breeding performance

(31:41):
horses, it's exactly what you'regetting at.
You can't change the way God made him.
That's what you're talking about, right?
But we are right trying to change the way God made him
right. You bring the timer to a timer
and if he if he was a better timer because of the way he was
built in the beginning, that's agood thing.

(32:02):
But it may be be that that that's not a conformational it a
confirmation defect can actuallylead to a better turning orcs.
And so we got to be careful how we sacrifice confirmation for
performance that there's a there's, there's, there's a line

(32:22):
that be wealthier. Yep, I hear you.
So this is, I'm just going to ask, I'll ask the question and
I'll I'll give you an opinion about it too.
But it was like, and I can, there's an interesting example,
but I think for me, I had lots of really nice horses here in
Oklahoma and had lots of successshowing them.
And, and I would say that 80% ofthe horses that I trained, I

(32:47):
didn't keep front shoes on. I mean, they're good footed
horses and shoeing them in frontor just gave me something to
pull off when I was running and stopping if they made an
overreach. So and those horses stayed
sound. I didn't have a lot of rock, so
I didn't have a lot, but they were hard footed.
I mean, it was they, it was justwhat was my deal and it worked
out great for me. And I had AI don't need to, I

(33:09):
don't need to mention any names because it's not important.
But I will say a guy of my generation that is still working
and and training and he's, he's,he was, I had to make a
decision. I either have to go get some
help or I've got to retire. And I made the decision to
retire just because, you know, it's somebody else's turn on the
young guys that are grinding andgot great horses.

(33:30):
It's, it's their turn and it's, it's and no matter what, anytime
you're doing anything that that's with an athlete on a
horse or a human younger is always better.
I don't care what you say. You can still say you got it and
sometimes you don't. So anyway, but this gentleman
that went for help with one of the younger very, very
successful trainers and his response was holy mackerel, I

(33:56):
had no idea the kind of pressurethat these things were getting,
the pressure that they were being put under now to stay in
that top 20 slot. Those horses are getting the
mash put on them all the time. And that was something the guys
with us, we didn't do that because if one got a little bit
sore, we you know what this is. The horses were always valuable.

(34:19):
So you try to make each one the best you possibly can.
And I think today's deal at thatlevel is it's got to make it or
we don't want it. So do you think that you said
you're using a lot more therapeutic shoeing techniques
and shoes and equipment right now.
Do you think that that is pressure related as opposed or

(34:40):
is it pedigree related? It's both, but it's more
pressure. I would say at this time, it's
more pressure related. Like you said, some of these
things are definitely being matched and they're on the
trailer all the time. They're going, they're going,
they're going. So we have to, you know, vet had
a vet tell me one time, I said, you want to put bar shoes on
this horse. And she said no.
She said that might make him feel better than what he

(35:03):
actually is or it might make himput out too much.
This horse is going to the NRA for charity.
I said. I said, you're asking me to send
him to a football game without no padding and they're going to
unravel him. They're going to, I said,
because he's going to be asked for his life.
So we he's going. Anyway.
Yeah, we might as well go ahead and give him all we can give him
if you think. And you know, so I said to her,

(35:26):
I said my question to you is do you think they're beneficial
venue? And she said, yeah, she said,
well, that's the case most definitely.
So that's the way we have to look at it.
He he's going to the game, he's going to have to play.
So we might as well give him thebest set of sneakers we can give
him to play in. Good point.
And there's a case where you guys collectively are working
together as a team trainer, owner, vet, Ferrier and, and

(35:52):
there's an end goal. I mean, it's, it's the, it's the
big leagues. So that's what you're doing,
right? Yes, Sir.
Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's actually interesting to how
much our industry has changed and grown.
And as we use science and we're so casually talking on, this is
an area that I have high interest on, which is the
breeding, the genetics, because as we and the light horses

(36:15):
continue to manipulate the genetic coding, one, do we
really know what we're doing? And then two, what's, what's the
output of that? And, and there's got to be a
consequence of both positive andnegative with that kind of
output. I, I mean, Jody and I talked
about this in an episode earlierbecause I have the I can't

(36:38):
recite them by memory, but I pulled the, the pedigrees from
last year's random paternity andthe amount of damn influence in
the finals is significant more than we've ever seen them
before, because now you have dams that can mother more than
one full a year. Well, and I'm not picking a side

(36:59):
yet because I don't know whetherthat's good or not so good, but
that's you're making reference to it because when we line breed
a Turner to a Turner, you have agenetically a structurally
inferior individual that might be more athletically prone for
this one thing, but that's not necessarily good in everybody's

(37:20):
long term interest. I'm I'm paraphrasing the way you
said that. Absolutely, that's exactly what
I see it, just not quite as clean and pretty.
I've always loved you, DJ. So do you get what you're trying
to tell me is and if Brian's heard me say this once, he's
heard me say it 1000 times. It's always about the money,

(37:41):
right? I mean, sooner or later it's
always about the money. So what I'm telling you is if
guys think that they can win a half, $1,000,000 just because
they've got one that they line red so bad they, that there's
got to cut confirmation issue, they're going to do it anyway.
They're not going to do what's best for the long term.
They're going to do what's best to make them the most money.

(38:04):
And rather that's good or ratherthat's bad.
I'm not here to say that becauseI, I don't know that.
I mean, everybody's got to make a living.
Your belief is that you guys arejust going to have to keep
coming up with some new and better ways to shoe because from
a genetic standpoint, there's not going to be any more
appendix registry where the AQHAis going to throw thoroughbreds
in because it's not going to happen.

(38:25):
Rainers are going to breed the Rainers and they're going to
breed the best ones they can because they want to make money
and the owners want to make money.
The Breeders want to make money and it's expensive, so you're
trying to tell me that you're just going to have to keep
getting better? Better at shoe and bad made
horses in a nutshell. Yes, I'm prepared to do daily

(38:46):
whatever I have to do, but I'm I'm constantly whispering in the
ears of my customers. I had one brought to me two
weeks ago and they said, hey, this thing's toe is is getting
away from us. We got to get this toe back up.
We got to get him back and go. And I said, look at high
standards. Look at how far back underneath
this selfie stands. It has a lot of pressure on that

(39:06):
toe, so that total stretches more from one horseshoeing to
the next, then a horse with a better angle on his leg.
And it was Pastor. And so I have to shoot that to
try to relieve that stress and that leverage and try to get rid
of that. Yes.
But I'm always trying to sound it to make anybody do anything.

(39:27):
But I can't say, hey, we're parting ourselves in a corner
and the corner is not as far away as it used to be.
I've been Privy to some information on some studs along
the way that a lot of people, you know, are not Privy to and
then don't understand the history of some of these horses
on the feet that they had on them.
So when I sometimes when I see them and everyone like, Oh yeah,

(39:48):
you know, typical. And I'm not going to call any
mates. I'm not looking to make a whole
lot of enemies here. But there's certain ruins out
there. Got some some pretty stone pop
look right feet growing on them.And and I told her.
I told a customer a couple of years ago they had a a a yelling
and I told him I said when you send him off in the training, I

(40:09):
said first thing y'all need to do is put front shoes on him and
put pads on him. And he said you think so?
I said I'm telling these club twitted and front shoes and pads
are going to be the best thing for him.
I said he's going to get sore onhim so you just go ahead right
from jump street but never let him feel the pain.
Just let him go ahead and, and get used to the shoes on the
pads and roll on. And, and they didn't.

(40:31):
And I was in a horse show and I walked by another guy or chewing
a horse and I said, I said, I saw he had pads on the front of
it. And I said, oh, that's that
horse. And he's like, yeah, we made it
for six months without the pads.And I was like, yeah, but he, he
didn't go so far. I mean, you can see these things
coming. So I'm just all I'm ever, all
I'm doing is just kind of quietly voicing my opinion that

(40:55):
we need to be careful, put some consideration into it and know
that if you want to cut down on your prayer, you'll be on.
You don't want your prayer. You'll be able to be so high, be
more selective with the kind of feet that you buy.
That is an incredible piece of advice, and I would say that may
be one of the most profound things that I've heard on Cowboy

(41:17):
Office. So yeah, here's to you, ma'am,
my friend. That's that's great stuff.
Which would lead me to our last question, because maybe you just
said it because here's my question, DJ.
You know, the amount of venues that continue to come online,
continue to expand. We've got more better, bigger
venues, more shows being produced, more purses, more,

(41:40):
more everything. And everybody in the horse world
thinks that more is always better.
Our shows are bigger than ever. But from your point of view,
what would you say is the top one or two things as far as
being a farrier that is most important.
And maybe you just said it, which is how we select that next

(42:03):
prospect, because that's what you just said.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it was pretty
profound. Right.
By the time we only deal with live horses standing in front of
us. So by the time we get there, the
decisions have already been madein the breeding shed and all
that stuff. That's all in the past and all
we can do is say be more carefulnext time or, you know,

(42:26):
sometimes, very rarely will I get asked my opinion on a
certain way of breeding horses or whatever.
And I have my favorite studs based on performance she works
and what some of his feet look like and you know what they
passed down. But I'm just always urging
people to to be careful, especially when you go out and

(42:48):
you buy horses that that that are already yearlings, 2 year
olds, whatever you're buying a prospect for the charity, Be
careful. Don't just assume that your
farrier can fix. A lot of times people get into
that comfort zone. Well, my farrier can fix this.
He may be able to and he may be able to get him through.
He may be able to get him through for many years, but it's

(43:08):
going to cost you. It's not going to be as cheap as
Jody said earlier, some of thosehorses were, they were good
bred, good footed horses and they didn't have that kind of
pressure being put on. They could go bare footed and in
that ground. Not everybody has the ground to
ride these things daily and keepthem barefooted.
So you got all these things. There's so many things to figure

(43:30):
in, but it starts with a good brush decision.
Pay close attention to your horse's feet because you can buy
a old pickup truck and worn out raggedy tires on it and you can
go get a new set of rims and tires to mark all that thing and
make her look good. You're struggling to foot this
on that horse. You're not going to go replace

(43:50):
it at at the group shop. Some guys going to have to go in
there and maintain that thing and keep it up and try to keep
it up and keep it going. Words of wisdom.
Absolutely. Well, I this is this has been
one of my this has been one of my I mean, I've had a lot of
favorite shows since we've started doing this cowboy
office. But did you this has been this

(44:11):
is this is right up there at thetop of the list, my friend.
There's been, there's been for people that know horses that
will listen to this. There is a lot to be learned
right here. So I, I, I heck, I'd like to do
another one of these. Absolutely, but I would, I would
read, I was going to say I wouldrecommend getting even a, a, a

(44:33):
higher quality failure than myself.
You know, there's a couple of there's a couple of references I
could give you. I could give you some guys that
could give you some really good information.
I mean, way better than what I can and and those guys are are
outstanding of what they do. But one of the questions we're
we're talking about all this pressure and we're talking about
the prestige, you know, and I have the attention that comes

(44:54):
with renting with these horses now.
I mean, I can't pronounce that guy's name, but that guy that
just wanted to run for a million.
I mean, he's, he found some pretty instant thing, you know?
Arnold Yeah, the French, The French boy.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he he came in there and
surprised some people and he found himself, you know, his
friends, his Facebook freedom isprobably trickling about will be

(45:16):
minutes after he'd done that. But anyway, I want to say this.
We talk about these horses and we talk about the pressure to be
on there. We talk about the pressure that
we put ourselves under working on these things and and it's and
it's all life is about pressure and and there's pressure in
everybody's life at some point somewhere.
So we all have to learn to deal with it.

(45:36):
But a friend of mine named JasonSholene, he's a horseshoe route
in Minnesota. He shoots some, some nice riding
horses and all two really good horseshoe.
And you'll see him at the fraturity if you go there.
He sent me a we saw with each other a lot of Bible verses back
and forth, do a lot of talking about our faith and stuff.
And he sent me something the other day that really struck
with me and he asked me, he said, how did, how do you how do

(45:59):
you take this? They sent me this Bible verse
and this is what this Bible verse says.
It sends fire tests, the purity of silver and gold and it says,
but a person is tested by being praised.
And you know, we got a lot of guys in our industry that are,
you know, top, top of the top notch, top of the line guys in

(46:20):
our industry that claim to be, and I won't just say claim to be
a man in a bad way that are living Christian lives outside
of everybody in this industry. And I think they're doing a
great job of it. But you will be tested by how
you handle craze. That's how a man is tested and a
man would do crazy things once he has been praised, he would do

(46:40):
crazy things to to be praised, that praising.
And so that is the true test of a man, what he would do to be
praised or what he will sacrifice to be praised.
And so I would say to everybody out there who might hear this,
might listen to this, might see this, whatever care about it.
If you're sacrificing a animal or your own personal praise,

(47:01):
whether it be at some local horse show or whether it be at
the top of the list. If you're sacrificing and doing
something that's unethical, thathorse for your own friends, step
back and look at yourself and ask yourself what you.
Do well said. Absolutely, without question.
That is, that is the best advicethat I've heard given in ages.

(47:24):
And you know, I think DJ, when you're talking about maybe
having some other guys on here that, you know, that are better
shoers than you or I, I would, Iwould stop and I would, I would
argue with you right now becausethe majority of the people that
want to watch this need to listen to you need to listen to

(47:44):
how you are phrasing the terminology that you're talking
about with the horses. And the majority of the people
that are going to watch a show will learn way more from you
saying, you know what, buy a better foot.
It'll be better for you in the long run than having someone try
to get technical and tell me what we're going to do with a
horse to fix it after that thing's already been broken.

(48:05):
So no, I want you, I'd, I'd haveyou shooting in my barn right
now if I, if I had a full and I could get you.
So anyway, I, I wouldn't, I would argue with you a little
bit about that. If we do another one of these,
I'd want you right here. You maybe can have somebody with
you that you like, but I'd I'd want you right back, Brian.
A 100% agree. And I actually would put DJ,

(48:29):
I've known DJ for a long time. I've been a long time.
So and I would put DJ not and I knew Dwight well.
I mean, you know, we all came from that East Coast, northeast
where raining came from, all that kind of stuff.
And so I knew Dwight and his wife well as a young person.

(48:50):
I mean, Bonnie used to do a lot of horse show production and all
that kind of stuff. And Dwight was always around
chewing and helped us all grow and learn.
But I think the things that DJ is sharing through his last 25
to 30 years of direct experienceis extremely profound.
And one, I can't thank you enough, DJ.

(49:10):
And two, I would tell you that you're in the elite group of of
tradesmen and horsemen that are called barriers.
And three, it's really up to allof us to try and leave some of
that info for the next generation so that it should be
better and easier for the next group.
The one thing that I disagree with and I find a lot of my

(49:32):
colleagues that they think that everybody needs to pay their
dues like we did. And I think that's archaic old
thinking. So I just use that as kind of a,
a parallel that goes with it. But I would put you up there
just as Jody said. Anyways, I hear you loud and
clear. I can't thank you enough.
I think your insight is phenomenal.
I appreciate your time. I appreciate your insight.

(49:55):
I hope for all of us, the industry can continue.
Going forward is inevitable. It's how do we all embrace going
forward and do we make the industry better for all of our
sake? That's the one that I kind of
get a little bit concerned with along the way.
So I hear you on all those points, but the more skilled
professionals we have, the better we're all going to be.

(50:17):
I know that much. Thank you very much.
And thank, thank you. I appreciate it.
Thank you for the compliments and thank you for having me.
DJI, look forward to you for thenext time.
Brian, thank you. You know, stay in the middle,
guys. You know how this ends.
Yep, and until the next time, enjoy the ride DJ, we'll see you
soon. Thanks guys.

(50:38):
Today's episode is brought to you by 40 productions in
cooperation with the Consultant Agency, a full service agency
that helps bring forward thinking equine brands into the
21st century using digital skills and services such as
website development, graphic design, social media and media
production such as the podcast you're consuming here today.