The Man in the Arena: Jim Kiser from Kiser Arena: EP $35

The Man in the Arena: Jim Kiser from Kiser Arena shares his insight, moving forward, knowledge learned and how to measure, test and manage ground for better performance in our horses. Keeping horses sounder longer and performing at their best. Multiple discipline ground demand and the investment to explore what we don't know and more.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Welcome to the Cowboy Office Show where you'll experience
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and Brian Dagger, industry veterans with over 120 years
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(00:32):
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(00:57):
Hello, horse World. They say the older we get, the
faster time flies. Here it is 2020.
Five, 25% of the way into the 21st century.
The industry is changing and as one of our past presidents said
in 1910 in one of his famous speeches in France, Teddy
Roosevelt. The credit goes to the man in

(01:18):
the arena. Ride with us by going to
cowboyoffice.com. Put your e-mail in.
Don't forget to click on the subscribe button platform of
your choice. Welcome to Cowboy office.
I'm Brian. And I'm Jody.
Today we have the man in the arena.
And I've known this guy for so long.
I hate to compare him to Teddy Roosevelt.
He's one of the best, if not thebest when it comes to ground.

(01:41):
Irritate. Exactly.
And I think that that ground thing, I, I might have to call
him the second best guy on ground because I think his
father, Bob, who was turning ground when Jimmy was riding the
stick horse, is probably the best.
But I'll give you that. One, right.
OK. Well, anyway, it's all about
good ground, good judges and good purses.

(02:02):
And we want to welcome Jim Kaiser from Kaiser Arena as the
family, innovators and educatorsfor all things to do with Horse
Ground. Welcome, Jimmy.
Thanks, Jody. How's it going, Jim?
It's all good, it's all good. Looking forward to what 25
brings. Got some exciting stuff coming

(02:23):
up. The industry still looks really
strong, just keep wondering where the limit is.
Events and purses and better horses, Better training, which
should be followed by better ground.
Without a doubt. But you've got a very
interesting career because you came up the ranks as a pro, you
were a judge, you were a professional trainer, you had a

(02:44):
lot of success as a rider and trainer.
Then this second-half of your career you shifted and the
ground expertise, which was taking on what your dad started,
which I think is all phenomenal,but just talk about in your
involvement. We're going to get into it
because you've been managing theground at all the major events.
The American Performance Horsemen that brought the
American rodeo and cutting and raining and cow horses together,

(03:06):
and now they're going to do themin two separate venues this
year, 2025. Again, a new change, but talk
about for a minute, the change in the industry across your
career where we've kind of come from, really where we're headed.
Where do you see that? So we've been involved in the
footing aspect of this for 3738 years now, probably since about

(03:30):
1988. I'm surprised sometimes at how
far that we've even evolved withit.
And, and Dad will admit this, wecame in and, and tried to make
it better, but there's been a tremendous learning curve for
us, just like there is training,you know, different aspects like
that. He'll admit that some of his

(03:50):
earlier attempts at improving the ground, they weren't nearly
as good as what we've got now. This has been a it's been a
learning experience for all of us across the board from not
just the reigning, but the cow horse, the cutting, the AQHA
world shows. Both of you guys remember that
the World Show is a great example of the involvement that

(04:11):
we've seen and he was a great guy.
But I think what we laugh about this a lot, Huddy Hudspeth, you
know, taking care of the ground at the World Show.
It was a great story. The arena got drugged, but it
got drugged the same for every event.
The barrels, raining, cow horse,all of it.
One of the things that happened when they brought us in was we

(04:33):
picked out a different footing that we could manipulate for,
you know, all of the different disciplines at the World Show
and everything, and it was a major improvement.
Cutting was the same way. The cow horse was the same way.
I can't remember when we first started doing the ground at the
cow horse. I spent a lot of time with Bill
Inc because Bill watches every run.
I'd been involved forever with it.

(04:56):
Sitting with him one day and I asked him, I said what do you
think? He and Bill being Bill, you just
have to know. Bill is a great guy, larger than
life character. He just kind of glanced over at
me and he says quit worrying about it.
He says this is so much better. He says this used to be a
contest about who didn't fall down and now we've got such a
better surface for those horses to perform on.

(05:17):
It's been a lot of fun watching this and being involved in it.
Well, talk about for a minute. I I want to take this one more
step because these are your stats and Kaiser Arena is moving
forward as well as the industry.True, right?
Yeah. You know, we hit a point here as
far as stats go, and I'm not thestatistician that you are, but

(05:40):
there's some things that I do try and keep track of.
And at one point in time last year, I sat down in the best
that I could and I actually enlisted the help of the
associations and everything. I figured that we have
approximately been about $350 million in prize money awarded
on ground that we personally selected, installed and and

(06:02):
maintained at these events. So you start going through some
numbers like that and it really becomes mind boggling where this
industry started, where it was and where it's going.
As we keep trying to improve this, one of the things that
we're doing is we're starting tosee actually some people that
are starting to incorporate AI into testing ground soundness of

(06:25):
horses and things like that. That stuff really excites me,
and I'm pretty fortunate in the sense that I'm going to start to
be involved in some of those programs on testing the footing
in relationship to what the footing is and the soundness of
the horses. Well, I think that that's pretty
fascinating. I'm going to add a couple more
because the 350 million is a bigone and I just pulled some

(06:47):
numbers just in the reigning industry and lifetime earnings.
But we're right over 100 millionin lifetime earnings, and that's
only the top 50. So that's not cumulative across,
you know, 1200 people or whatever that is.
So simply times 33 disciplines. Yeah, I don't doubt that at all,

(07:09):
and it's probably very conservative.
But you've also got you, your dad, your company, you guys have
got arenas and ground in 45 States and 11 different
countries across your career andnow the second generation.
So I think that's very interesting as well.

(07:29):
And a big piece is the knowledgethat comes out of that because
you got material of ground to work with as well as the
discipline demand and then the staff by which staff, equipment,
etcetera. Is equipment in Europe the same
as North America or equipment inBrazil the same as?

(07:53):
I don't know. As far as the equipment goes,
obviously been a tremendous evolution in that too.
I mean, we've got the first dragthat we built sitting out in
front of the shop and it in no way, shape or form resembles the
equipment that's being built now.
And there's some other companiesout there that are starting to
and have been building equipmentfor a while and trying to

(08:15):
improve how we manage the footing at events and at
training facilities and all of those things.
I think the next step of the evolution, though, is to try and
provide better footing. And as far as the 45 States and
11 countries, the consultation work that I've been doing,
there's an element of that it it's a little frustrating

(08:37):
sometimes, but it, it also tellsyou how much room for
improvement that there is you get in certain parts of the
country and in different places in the world.
Good arena footing is almost nonexistent.
And so I've told this story before.
I'll go into a quarry or a dirt pit, something like that.
And to say, OK, I'm looking for this.

(08:58):
What do you have that's similar to this?
Whatever it is? And inevitably, and I mean, like
90 times out of 100, they'll look at me and they'll go, oh,
what are you going to use it for?
OK, well, I've got an arena to build.
Oh, well, here's what we use around here.
And everybody loves it. And I look at it and go, OK,
this is junk. This is absolute junk.

(09:21):
And it doesn't make them bad people.
They lack education and a littlebit of ability to think outside
of the box. So I'm like, OK, that's not what
I'm looking for. I need to find this because what
you're using maybe might have satisfied US 30 years ago, but
it's not good footing now. Well, like I said, there's

(09:45):
places that that stuff is really, really hard to find.
You might have to make up different blends of it.
Their common answer is, well, this is what everybody uses
around here and they love it. Even if they love it, that
doesn't necessarily make it goodfooting.
But isn't that a testament to the movement of the industry?
Because the common, where I'm going is the common reflex of

(10:07):
what we do with horses. Oh, you're just, you're riding
horses. OK.
It's kind of a, it's kind of a layman's not a big deal.
And now as the industry, both English and Western, is getting
more advanced exposure and they're seeing that it is a big
deal, right? It that's really where it is,
which is the demand of the athletic competition.

(10:29):
That which means that common people don't understand the
average person out there in the public does not understand what
we're doing in advanced levels in the horse world.
Fair statement. Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's one of the things that has spurred the growth of
our consultation business is that you're what we'll call your

(10:49):
consumer or your horse enthusiast is starting to
recognize that. As they go to events and see
better footing, the horses performing better, staying
sounder and all of these things,they're starting to recognize
that. I, I think that's just awesome,
awesome conversation. And I'm a couple questions pop

(11:10):
up right now. It's like the horse business
sooner or later, it's always about money everywhere.
There's one question. Does the industry have enough
trained and qualified resources as in people and equipment to
prepare and manage ground for the continued demand of the high
performance in the cowboy world?That's, that would be question
#1 #2 Jim, do you find yourself when you go into a spot?

(11:36):
And like I said, Brian and I've had this conversation many times
about how amazed we are about the amount of disposable income
that there is available now thatwhen we were trying to train
horses, that wasn't there, right?
I mean, now it's, it's amazing. We were constantly trying to
save money all the time. We go to a horse show and maybe
we had two tax stalls and then we had them jammed full.

(11:56):
And now somebody will come in and they'll have six extra
stalls that'll have two tack. That one's got a couch and a
kitchen in it. And they just like there is no
limit to what people will do. Do you ever find when somebody
calls you in that you have a limit of amount of money that
you need to work with and you have to find compromises?
Or do you go into a, a facility and say, look, this is going to

(12:20):
cost 100,000 to put this ground in and there's just no other
way? And if that's the case, then is
there lifespan on that footing? How long does it last?
Just throwing that out there. You got three big questions.
Yeah, let's let's go back and and hit me with because I want
to address these individually. Ask me #1 again.

(12:40):
OK. Do we have enough trained and
qualified personnel to manage all of the footing and all of
these shows? No, absolutely not.
Absolutely not. That's another thing that's
something that we're trying to get into is a lot more training
of people in that aspect as far as facilities go and everything.
Because you know, a great example of that is the reigning

(13:01):
fraternity, for example, that takes 10 people to manage that
ground at the reigning fraternity, 5 in the daytime and
5:00 at night. And that was always a constant
struggle to come up with 10 people and seeing a need for
that. That's one of the directions
that we're trying to go now is opening up more training so that
we can provide more qualified people because the volume of

(13:24):
events just keeps increasing. We're not going to be able to
keep up with the demand for qualified personnel to manage
that ground. They look up at especially, you
know, once we start getting intofraternity season and
everything, the events and disciplines that we're involved
with, there's a shortage in the fall.
Otherwise, you're looking at trying to use the same people

(13:46):
and keep them on the road for 90days at a time without going
home. You'll burn them out and they
just can't perform the way that they need to.
So like I said, that's one placethat we're trying to go is to
try and figure out how to train more people to do this.
And it's kind of like the littlebit, the same as the horse
training thing. You spend a career doing that

(14:09):
and then you look up and think, OK, I've got an opportunity
here, got a lifetime of knowledge that I can spread to
other people by doing clinics. And that's basically one of the
things that I'm starting to try and do is more footing clinics
to train people on the aspects of better footing and better
footing management. Which is really about your where

(14:32):
you flipped it over is your ability to go to them and train
staff already in place for more knowledge, more experience and
advancement, right? Well, and we're, you know, as I
do that all of the time, all of those facilities that I go to
that's kind of A2 fold thing, we're going to try and improve
the material that they've got and their knowledge of how to

(14:55):
take care of it, right. And there is a life cycle in
ground, whether people know thator not.
I've experienced it, I know that, but most people don't,
correct? Yeah, but that's that's part of
training these people on what that material consists of and
how to manage it better. Because yeah, eventually ground

(15:17):
does become wore out. It does have a lifespan.
You have a a period of time there where that footing can be
really good. And then as it starts to
deteriorate, there's some band aids that you can put on it to
extend the the lifespan of it. But eventually you run out of
band aids and you have to start over.
But it's just like everything else.

(15:38):
We have to start, and it starts with education of these
facilities and everything, to realize that that footing can
become worn out and that they need to start budgeting for
improved footing. Interesting.
And the the lifespan of that footing is great.
And like I said, we're talking about we're talking about the
money thing. Do you ever see this evolving

(16:00):
into a number of independent contractors like somebody that
has this as a small trucking business?
I have you know, 5 semi trucks. I don't have, I'm not, you know,
1000 truck unit, somebody that says, you know what an
independent of a facility or a fairgrounds say you know what,
I've got 5 tractors and five drags and we're going to put a

(16:24):
bid in for Oklahoma City and or Tulsa and, or do you ever see
that happening? Or do you just do you feel like
it's just going to be a company like Kaiser that is going to
take care of multiple arenas like you guys have done forever?
And you just said you need can'tkeep your people on the, you
know, on that same footing for months and months because it's

(16:46):
like, I don't want to do this anymore.
So it is that something that could happen?
I think, Jody, I think that there's a strong possibility
that could happen. I think that that's a ways off
in the future though, because we'll go back to these
associations and facilities having to budget for that right
now. There's a lot of places and
events that are just willing andto be satisfied with what's in

(17:09):
there. And it is what it is.
We've got dirt in there, so there's no problem, right?
But I think one of the things that you'll see happen is we
start trying to educate these facilities, their employees and
the public in general on this and we're able to start having
instrumentation to test this footing.
I think that's one of the going to be one of the turning points

(17:30):
in this as to where when we can come in and say, all right,
we've created for example footing at the reigning
fraturity and we have these testing parameters and here is
what we start to understand as the best possible footing.
Instead of it just being an opinion, we've got the

(17:50):
instrumentation to test it. The trickle down effect to your
smaller facilities when they start asking for that testing
and realize how far away that they are from having qualified
footing, safe footing, footing that keeps the horses sounder
and all of those things. I think that's maybe when we'll

(18:10):
start to see a little bit more of what you ask as far as
companies developing that and operating in those parameters.
OK, interesting. That's really good.
When, when we're talking about this, like say the reigning for
maturity and, and you know, the cutting of maturity and most all
the reigning horse trainers, they want the same ground that
they're riding on at home. And it varies, right?

(18:33):
But they're, you know, I mean, it's they're self-serving.
I want dirt to like, like this is what I train on all year.
So I want that. And you're not going to be able
to satisfy every single person because like I said, a horse
trainer will bitch if he sets ona gold nugget about his butt
being sore instead of realizing what the gold nugget is worth,
right. So when you have these what we
have now crossover events that you are managing or you have

(18:54):
managed to run for a million where you and the world show,
you just have a little discussion about that.
What are you doing to try to satisfy each and every person in
there? Because, I mean, your footing
cutters are different than the Rainers and you're getting a
whole bunch of these things thrown together for a hell of a
lot of money. And are you having to deal with
unsatisfied customers? I mean, have you got your

(19:16):
trainers coming up and say, I can't show them this or I, you
know, whatever. And and some guys saying, yeah,
it's fine. And some guys just like, how are
you managing multiple events at the same time?
That would be my question. Well, let's start with the with
an event like the World Show where you have that many
different disciplines, one of the key factors in allowing us

(19:37):
to manage that footing to the best of our ability is the
involvement and knowledge of theshow management themselves on
the schedule. It's not possible to have the
finals of the junior reigning after the finals of the senior
barrels without taking several hours or several days, depending
upon the moisture content, to beable to manipulate that back

(20:00):
into good reigning ground after you've just had the finals of
the. Of the barrels production on
some of these other events, suchas the American Performance
Horsemen, one thing that's difficult on those things is
that those things become such a production.
They start wanting to cut your time frame down on being able to
manipulate that ground between the disciplines.

(20:22):
You start with the cutting, thenyou go to the raining, then you
go to the cow horse. And they're great organizations,
but when the production side becomes that big, it becomes
pretty hard to manage sometimes.I've said this before and we
managed to pull it off, which took, you know, a tremendous
amount of experience to figure out how to do this.
But for example, the American Performance Horsemen, we had 30

(20:46):
minutes between the cutting and the raining to manipulate that
back into into raining ground. And then we had 10 minutes
between the raining and the cow horse and I told him I said I
need more time. You have to understand, I
understand your production aspect of it, keeping the people

(21:07):
involved, keep them in their seats, all of these different
kinds of things. But bottom line is for the
betterment of the event, we really need to have more time.
If you need to have another concert between the reigning and
the cow horse, that would greatly benefit the event just
by making the giving us more time to prepare the ground.

(21:27):
So there's two things there at this at the world show, the
schedule, which is a a really, really difficult thing to to
manage. But I again, I think as we start
trying to use the instrumentation to test this and
say, OK, if you're going to havethe finals of the raining after
the finals of the barrels, on a scale of one to 10, somebody's

(21:51):
going to take a hit here. Either it's not going to be as
good a burial ground or it's notgoing to be a as good a reigning
ground. Are you satisfied with having a
three out of 10 for your reigning ground at your AQHA
World Championship? Once you start being able to
give them the the testing and the statistics and the reality

(22:11):
of what that is, they'll be moreinclined to listen and start to
to try and help manipulate that schedule.
Interesting and Brian, I want your input on this one just
because I'm and I'm just throwing the stuff out here and
just because I'm thinking about this as I'm listening to you.
We know that people are crazy, right?

(22:32):
I mean, as a general, as a general, yes, we can be, yes, we
are just some of us, yes, just some of us.
And but what I'm saying is not trying to go down a rabbit hole
here, but I mean, you turn on Facebook and we or social media
and I see picture after picture of, of abused or starving dogs.

(22:52):
And I, I never see a picture of an abused or starving child,
right? I mean, we're this, this, we
have to save this dog. Nobody cares about the kid,
right? And, and I'm going the direction
of Churchill Downs and a horse that runs and breaks.
It's like, and I worked on the racetrack and when the 70s it
happens, right? I mean, they're athletes and it
happens of it. If a human breaks his leg in a

(23:14):
football game, they, they don't show it, right?
They, they don't go back and show that clip again.
And it when this horse runs downthe track and breaks its leg,
sometimes it happens. Well, now all of a sudden we
look at footing. So Churchill Downs changes the
footing and they, they close thetrack until they can get the
footing changed. And they're kind of like you're
talking about the hunter jumpersand and ground manipulation.
And I'm just saying sometimes accidents happen.

(23:35):
It's like Bill Link, just like you talked about it.
You know, this used to be about horses not falling down.
And when you're talking about the performance Horseman.
And yeah, I know our production is going to take place here.
What, where who's responsible ifone of these things falls down
and breaks a leg in the pen because the footing is bad or
poor and you didn't have time tomanipulate it?

(23:56):
I mean, attorneys can sue anybody for anything, anytime.
Is somebody going to say, Jim, this is your responsibility or
are they going to because you and you know, hell, I didn't
have time to manipulate the ground like it should be.
I mean, do you see that as a potential problem, a liability
for poor footing somewhere? Brian, you ran footing forever.
It is that a possibility? I'm just throwing it out there

(24:18):
because I want your opinion. I'll jump on it.
First, he can go into the details.
The liability and event production is real.
Yes, yes. It's even more so because our
world has got an animal and thatanimal is unpredictable and it's
a 800 to 1200 LB animal. And you know, So yes, all of

(24:41):
those things are real, no doubt.And running a venue that has to
be able to produce multiple different events, it's no
different than a horse show having different disciplines in
a day a venue's got to have. The biggest question I used to
get was how could you have so many horse shows?
Well, the answer is they're not the same Horse show.

(25:01):
A quarter horse show, an Arabianshow, a Morgan show, a hunter
jumper show, a raining, a cutting a cow horse, a roping.
You can keep on going down the list, but you could have 50
different horse shows, which would be a horse show a weekend.
But they're not all the same. That's a plus when you talk
about it's a downside when you talk about the demand because

(25:25):
the venue is pressured to have quality infrastructure, stalls,
arenas, coliseums, climate control, air quality, parking,
security, disinfectant, all of those things.
But then you get talking about what we all perform on, which is

(25:45):
ground and a big change in a movement in the industry which
would lead me back to Jim can get into the details of the
ground and I saw this and I lived through it.
The ability to take ground in and out was always cost
prohibitive. That is coming down.
We are seeing venues and events that it is not cost prohibitive

(26:08):
to own your ground, put it in for a major event, take it out,
store it, do what you want to do, which is where the raining
came. Rainers cutters have done that
for 30 years. That movement in the industry
we're seeing, does it carry other liabilities that go with
it? And the answer is yes, of
course. You remember in our day, we used

(26:29):
to warm up with the tractor and the drag sitting in the corner.
I mean, we did and, and why we didn't have more wrecks and more
problems than we did and we didn't show.
Yes, in today's time, those things are real.
Do you have to take forward steps to minimize those?
Yes. Insurance premiums are doing

(26:50):
nothing but going up. Yes.
Everybody's looking to blame somebody and when they have an
accident, do they want it to be somebody else's fault and
therefore compensate them in some form?
Yes. And that's just the new modern
society. There are ways you can minimize

(27:10):
that. It's just real.
And insurance is a big one in the event world.
But the horses and I don't have this answer, the fact that we
can insure our horses at an advanced level as well, because
you can get insurance on horses for loss of use.
So if they're not able to perform athletically and you got

(27:30):
a lot of the average year lien is now 35 to 45,000.
Whoa, you know, that's, that's pretty pricey.
So it's, it's real on the detailof the ground.
I'll, I'll let Jim talk about itbecause that's an interesting
piece. And where I see the industry
moving. I think a big one, Jim, is the

(27:53):
industry's trying to come back together and showcase some of
the best parts of our sport, cow, horse cutting, raining.
My question would be, is that going to be sustainable at the
height that the demand is because of this, because you've
got different ground requirements that are not the

(28:14):
same for the disciplines. And can they do what we're
trying to do right now as opposed to would it be better
off to have a high performance cow horse on Friday, high
performance raining on Saturday,a high performance cutting on
Sunday, something there's different formulas you can play
with there. So talk on that.

(28:35):
Oh, there's about four differentthings there that I need to to
run a thread through to tie all together, but I'm going to start
with inherent risk, which is a really difficult one.
Is anybody that has ever owned one knows that one and one
starts with realizing that thereis inherent risk involved here.
They're not really that good a pets.

(28:57):
Like I said, several different aspects of this.
You were starting to talk about moving the ground and it used to
be cost prohibitive and everything.
I think as how much education isgoing to be involved here is is
really, really important becauseas our purse levels increase and
we need to keep these athletes sounder and everything.

(29:19):
I think that hopefully if we caneducate these people on what the
parameters are, that instead of every three years adding
$100,000 to the winner of cutting fraternity, renting
fraternity, cow horse fraternity, whatever it is that
some of that budget is dedicatedto the footing.

(29:41):
That's going to be a hard push because everybody is all about
that purse money, that purse money, that purse money to try
and keep these horses sound and and they're athletes.
And we'll go back to that inherent risk.
I can remember a conversation that I had with a track manager
at a major, major race track andwe were discussing injuries one

(30:02):
day and he says, hey, man, he says, I've seen some nasty
things happened. He says, you know, you think
you've created this masterpiece surface and something can still
go wrong. The inherent risk that becomes
involved here. But professional athletes,
football, baseball, basketball, they are all about trying to
keep these guys healthy and the research that it's involved with

(30:25):
it and try and come up with the best surfaces that they can.
But they're still going to be injury involved here.
They do everything that they canon a football field to make that
work and these guys are still going to get hurt.
But I think so much of it just goes back to the education and
realizing that if we want to improve the situation, there has

(30:48):
to be a budget for it. And as far at these major events
where they're trying to showcase3 different disciplines, yeah,
obviously it would be really beneficial if you had plenty of
time, whether it's a day in between and whatever it is.
But you're going back to the budget of the event, renting a
facility for one day instead of three.

(31:08):
All of these things. How do all of those things meld
together? Yeah, I think it's just again,
it goes back to testing this stuff and realizing, all right,
here's the happy medium, here's what we can do in this time
frame and for this cost. It goes back to one of those
things that I've one of my best friends is, is, you know, one of
the best guys on the equine lameness in the world.

(31:31):
It was kind of a joke between us, maybe not a very funny one,
but the arena builder or the manager of the footing an event
being myself, him being a vet, Isaid one of us is going to get
their money. And unfortunately, it was him
most of the time, right? And, and you know, he, he

(31:52):
readily admitted over and over again, if they would just take
the time and let us do what we needed to do and spend the money
to do what we needed to do, his income would have, would have
decreased substantially. But I would take us, I see this
in the industry as a whole, because in in our time, all of

(32:14):
us collectively, the industry was all one mixing pot.
It's actually trying to evolve up and out because what you're
talking about is a difference between business and those.
And it all comes back to what Jody says, because it's all
about the money. So in today's time, everything
has cost and reward. And I see the industry take

(32:36):
trying to take the big step thatwe all used to talk about, dream
about as young pros making a career, may having the money
return as a sport using our great horses versus just the
activity of it, which I'm going to put in the category.
So I break it out in two categories.
One hobby, just the weekend. I'm a hobby golfer.

(32:58):
I'm not a pro golfer, never would be.
I can dream about it, but I'm not.
I can enjoy the sport, blah, blah, blah, stay within my
means. Completely different scope and
everything than a professional golfer trying to earn a living
on tour. I would tell us as an industry
we're starting to see the beginning of that separation

(33:19):
because that's exactly what you're talking about.
And as a group of business people, professional people, I'm
talking about the athletes, etcetera, as well as the event
production. Because when you talk about the
horse shows or the horse events or the horse competitions, it's
still made-up of all of that melting pot and you get too many

(33:39):
diverse demands in there as opposed to getting focused.
Am I somewhere on target? Do you do you see some of that,
Jim? Oh, absolutely.
There's there's no question about that.
You know, it kind of goes back to you just are hopeful that all
of this keeps time with the evolution of everything that

(34:02):
we're seeing because there's so many different aspects of that.
We'll need to keep time. The training techniques that
saddle your farriers you should.Farriers and vets.
Farriers, your vets, things likethat, that are obviously a
major, major aspect of this. All of this has to evolve.

(34:26):
Can't just have 50% of it evolveand leave the rest of it.
We won't get there, right? I would bring that into the
event production side because this is where I see a big
weakness in the today's industryand I put the responsibility on
the jurisdiction of organizations.
Quit having horse shows that tryto serve them all.

(34:48):
It's time to start having horse shows, organized horse
activities that start to get focused on the consumer that
they should be designed to serve.
And I break it into 3 categories.
Beginner intro. I'll use golf as a thing.
You know, I got four different Tees that I can choose to play
from, which is about depth of competition and how well that

(35:11):
is. But the beginner, the people
that want to just have a good time and begin to develop skills
and answer their own questions. There's a medium group that
needs to practice in advance. And then there's an advanced
group. I see event production and it
goes directly to ground quality of ground, variable flexibility

(35:32):
of ground, which is just like flexibility of venues.
Venues that are succeeding and we're seeing in the industry of
venues are expanding. Look at what Oklahoma City and
Fort Worth have done in our lifetime.
Oklahoma City has been rebuilt, now going on the third time, so
in 35 or 40 years. Fort Worth is going through that

(35:53):
as well. Lazy E is expanding major
competition, but we see more venues coming online all the
time and one of the keys to those venues is flexibility.
That same thing is going to be in demand of ground and you see
the English in the Western worldgo down to separate paths

(36:15):
because we'll never the synthetic ground will not work
for the cowboy side of the world.
True. To some degree, to some degree,
I think one of the things that as I'm listening to you, one of
the things that I would be hopeful of is what you're
talking about. But in the aspect of your major

(36:35):
events, focusing more on the footing and it, this is going to
be kind of reverse of how a lot of things are done.
I don't think we're going to start this progress on the lower
end. I think we're going to have to
start this footing progress on the higher end and let it
trickle down to the lower end. I think that'll happen by
default to some degree. I think that's it's just

(36:56):
hopefully, hopefully where that goes.
So, and I and I think this is, this is great conversation that
would be see right now the way that our business is structured.
And you've always Brian's heard it until he's sick of it, no
doubt. But I said the answer is always
in the middle. And when you say this footing
right now is the best for all ofus right now.
So it you're, you have to createa footing at the World show that

(37:19):
is the best for everybody that'sin there.
So I think right now and we, it's changing rapidly.
And like I said, if you'd, if you'd have told me Brian, in our
lifetimes, we would have seen what what it has become out of
if you'd have told me that even 30 or 35 years ago.
So you're crazy. It's it'll never happen.
And wow, it's beyond what we possibly thought would be the

(37:41):
best. So right now, all the new
venues, the ease, the expansionsin Fort Worth, Oklahoma City,
Did anybody with the new building, the new arena in
Oklahoma City, did anybody come to you and say, Jimmy, what
should we put in here? Or are they just going to go?
What's going to happen? The result of that was they

(38:03):
actually, they actually did realize with that arena floor
being bigger, it was going to require a higher volume of
material. So they did request and, and we,
we did buy some more material totry and match what we already
had, freshen it up a little bit now.
And you know Brian, as far as the the artificial footings go,

(38:24):
we've been doing a little bit ofexperimenting on our own and a
very slow pace, but with cuttingfooting on add on some different
additives. There's several different
factors involved, but not with conventional synthetics or
things like that, just some different products to to try and
figure out how to stabilize thatand keep them sounder.

(38:46):
I find it pretty interesting what we've uncovered already as
far as I think there's some future and some different
footing for the cutting especially.
But one thing that we're starting to see is that for
20-30 years now the jumping footing has been synthetic.
Well, one of the things that it's they're starting to and I

(39:07):
think we're ways off from seeingthe next evolution of that.
Is that OK? OK.
When that's worn out, what do you do with it?
You can't just take that out andspread it in your pasture
because it's not biodegradable. And so that's one of the things
that we've been experimenting with on cutting footing is some

(39:29):
biodegradable products that the stuff doesn't have to be hauled
off to a dump. You know when the cutting
footing gets worn out, it's got a biodegradable additive in it
that you can take out and spreadin the pasture, no harm done.
But what I hear you saying is you're involved.
I'm not trying to ask for proprietary stuff, but I hear

(39:50):
you talking about being involvedwith advanced science research
development. Of high performance, I'm going
to call it cowboy ground becausethe rainers, the cutters, the
cow horses, the demand, which ishow do we one, explore and

(40:12):
gather more new information on how our ground is affecting our
horses, which would enable our horses to stay sounder longer
and perform higher. Am I somewhat true in that And
that's where you're going? That's yeah, that's, that's
where we're trying to go. Obviously to really advance that

(40:36):
you have to be funded. But one of the places, one of
the things that I'm seeing rightnow is that I'm going to be
involved on a pretty high end oftesting in association with the
NCHA and Texas A&M. We're trying to develop a
program to to test the cutting footing and, and really advance
that. One of the reasons for that is,

(40:57):
is that, you know, the price of these athletes has become
astronomical. And even if you've got a loss of
use insurance on them, that doesn't pay for the dream being
crushed, right? So that emotional attachment to
them, I, I think is going to drive part of this.
But, you know, the NCHA started to realize that at one cutting

(41:21):
event, they didn't seem to have that many lameness issues.
And at another event, at the endof the second day, they had 20
trainers sending three horses home that were sound when they
got there, right? And so they're like, OK,
obviously we're starting to see a trend here.
And I'm sure that to some degree, and I'm going to say

(41:43):
that it's minimal, that maybe there's some training techniques
involved here. But bottom line is I think the
majority of that fault probably lies in the footing.
And fortunately, you've got an association there that's well
funded and willing to go down that path to see what they can
do and move this forward. And that's pretty exciting

(42:04):
stuff. It was about this time last year
I went to a vet symposium and I was astonished.
I was astonished. There was a lady from
Switzerland that gave a speech on how they're starting to
incorporate AI into lameness examinations.

(42:24):
And it, it was, it was just mindboggling.
Like it was so intriguing. Which puts it on the objective
scale as opposed to the subjective scale.
And I could see that, I could see AI applications in research
and knowledge in our industry, like at exponential levels,
places that we can't even fathomat the moment.

(42:45):
And I, so I find that conversation very interesting
and I think it's great. I didn't know that that's kind
of where you're headed. The more we talk, the more I
hear you talking about that. And the research component, I, I
think is a big one that our entire industry's been slack on
and. I've heard, I don't have very
much information on it, that theAEP is starting a pretty well

(43:10):
funded program of using AI and some different things like that.
I don't know. I guess I'm like a lot of
people, there's two things in inlife that are are pretty
concerning. 1 is social media and the other one is AI.
It's. Because they're new.
Yeah, I think they post. I think they both have the
potential to be pretty dangerous.

(43:30):
I think where we end up in 10 or15 years, hopefully this all
gets managed right because it left unmanaged, it could do just
as much damage as it could do positive.
I mean, we've all seen what people are willing to do on
social media anymore. That is, gosh, it's sometimes
it's a little dis it makes you alittle disappointed in human

(43:52):
nature. Well, yes, and I hear you.
I could take. If you looked historically over
time, wouldn't everybody have said something similar as
forward advancement? Would all?
You know, you could have said that about the airplanes, could
have said it about the combustion engine, could have
said it about the ships, you know, whatever that was that
humanity is moving forward. So I see social media because

(44:16):
it's a communication tool and I see communication as a positive
thing, not a negative. Now it comes, where's the
responsibility lie in the IT lies in twofold. 1 is the
protruder of the information andtwo is a receiver.
But like all information, the receiver, you got to open your
mind a little bit and pay attention to whether it's valid

(44:37):
or not valid. And that's not new practice.
It's just the transmission of ofinformation is way more faster.
And that's where social media goes.
I think the AI thing is a very fascinating stuff, especially as
you explore objective truth of new information and can it help

(44:58):
us? Of course it's only going to be
as good as we humans put it to use.
Is it going to exceed us? That's the one that I hear
everybody talk about one of the.One of the positives of it is,
is that, like I said, as I'm watching, as I'm watching her
presentation, that they're attaching modules to 50 or 60

(45:21):
different places on a horse to register that movement.
And what they're able to detect is unbelievable.
And then they take it even farther to where they've got
shoes that have sensors in them that can tell you how hard that
horse is hitting the ground on the surface.
I think that there's some reallyexciting stuff coming up just

(45:44):
around the corner. Interesting, right?
You know, the AI thing, of course, maybe it's our
generation, but are you guys going to get in a self driving
car and let it take you to California?
No sleep all the way there. Not me.
I'm not scared when I live in Phoenix and I drive around
Phoenix and I see it coming the other way.
I slow down and move over because I don't trust it.

(46:05):
So that's just me. There you have it.
Are you going to let AI Jimmy tell you what kind of footing
you're going to put in that pen and then have that self driving
tractor take care of? It I'd like to think that I'd
get to stay involved, but I see the potential here that could
happen that it just figures it out on its own.
Now we'll have to be in on this side of it to give AI the

(46:27):
foundation, something to work off of.
But yeah, there's obviously the potential that you know that
that can happen. And as far as the self driving
drag, that's really that's possible right now.
That technology has existed for a long time.
Well, some little some little Chinese hacker that's got a

(46:50):
horse in the rain. If attorney's going to sabotage
that thing, then it's going to make make sure that kind of like
Stretch Bradley putting too muchwater on the pen, right.
It's like I was going to say aha.
Now this morning, that's ground going to be back.
Yeah, I. Just going to make it go through
the gate. I mean.
Two, we need to wait three hoursfor this ground to dry back out.
We've been hacked. Yeah.

(47:12):
I the answer is always in the middle and I think some is good,
but yeah, I mean, I'm not I'm not going that that it's going
to replace experience, right. I mean, I I trust I trust that
veterinarian that's that's vetted 1000 Rainers as opposed
to that AI telling me that yeah,this is what's wrong with your
horse. I mean, it's just.

(47:33):
It's not and it's not. I'll say this, as important as
the footing is, there's other elements here that are equally
important. And one thing that can be
discounted here is the farriers,right?
That's an integral part of that interaction with the footing.
You just can't underestimate that.
Between the vets and the farriers, their ability.

(47:55):
Look at what vets can do now with sonograms and CT scans and
it's readily available. They're mobile, they can be at
the events. You don't have to go to a
elaborate clinic like we used to, which gives them more valid
info. The same would be true for
farriers because now when you talk about a 16th of an inch or
a 32nd of an inch and you need to take it off the front left

(48:16):
corner or whatever because the toes to whatever that is, that's
valid important info that will help our horses perform at the
level that that the demand is. So that's kind of where we're
going and your ability to now use different shoe materials

(48:37):
that will you could be changing shoes readily without nailing
them on the hoof like we always have.
I think there's some of that coming down the line that yeah,
because it, I mean, it ties intoprofessional sports Again, you
see football players changing shoes all the time to adjust to
a surface. And I think that on down the

(48:59):
line, we're probably going to start to see the same thing.
And you know, it kind of goes back to what I said in the
beginning. Going to have to start thinking
outside of the box. We've nailed shoes on horses for
hundreds of years. And I think we we might
eventually find that there's a better way.
Yeah, well, it's interesting. And I have had very good ground

(49:21):
here at the Big Lake and I probably, you know, in the last
20 years had front shoes on halfdozen horses barefoot in front,
binding horses to main and neverhandle in this issue from a
foot. It's like actually their feet
get tough and you're not worrying about pulling shoes and

(49:42):
filling front feet full of nail holes.
And you know, it just worked forme.
Some people would have a panic attack about it and say, oh God,
I gotta have front shoes on everything.
You know, I mean, it just, it's just different, different
strokes, right? So.
But maybe it is possible to develop a footing that allows us
to do that right across the board.
Absolutely. Wow.
Great, great point. Great point.

(50:04):
Well, it's going to take somebody that like yourself,
that does nothing but think about it and live it to to make
it happen. Well, thinking out-of-the-box
and you just brought it up. But tell me quick on the
industry and where 1, Jim, wheredo you see us going?
And two, are there enough? I don't know what the right word

(50:25):
is, but leaders, organizations, board of directors, responsible
entities that are beginning to think forward, think
out-of-the-box as opposed to as an industry, our culture is to
keep doing what we've been doing.
That's one of my frustrations because we got to do it

(50:45):
different and do it better. And it's just a forward push.
So do you see us? Tell me what you see.
I think so much of that's going to be determined by the
leadership of the associations and the and the industry.
Are they willing to like I said before, instead of increasing?
The purse all the time. Purse all of the time, investing

(51:08):
some of that money into our athletes.
I think there's one of the keys to the whole thing, our
leadership in the industry and our leadership in the country.
There's some parallels there. You have people that are in
leadership positions because of their egos and other people that
are in leadership positions because they're trying to do the

(51:28):
right thing. And the more of those that we
get in place that are trying to do the right thing, the easier
that this is going to be. Well, and I'll add one more egos
vested individual interests and then you have trying to do the
right thing for the better of the whole right, so.

(51:49):
Yeah, but I I think there's a key component to it.
It lies in the leadership. And I was so proud of the NCHA
for stepping up and really beingthe first one in the Western
discipline to address the issue.Right.
I think that, oh, excuse me, go ahead.
Brian, no talk specifically talking about footing and right

(52:12):
pushing forward on research, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's, I
think that's fantastic. I don't know the NCH, you know,
I mean, I, I don't know because I haven't been around the cutter
for ridden idiom for 25 years. So I mean haven't gone to the
futurity and forever. And so just something I probably
need to go back there and do again just because it was a fun
horse show. So much of of the push from the
NCHA actually came from well and.

(52:34):
I, I think that's fantastic, butwhen you have it comes from
leadership. I don't have a great deal of
faith in leadership from NRHA because it's so self-serving and
it's professional trainers that are doing the directing.
So when you say, geez, we need to take some of this prize money

(52:55):
away, it I cannot see that happening because even the board
of directors, they're and Brian and I, we've both been there.
He even more so than I as president of an RHA.
But you can try and do the very best possible thing that you can
think of for the industry and you're going to have somebody
that wants money that's going todrive the truck.

(53:18):
I I. Think.
So you went there. I was going to stay away from
that, but you went there and andI I agree with you, self-serving
is going to do nothing but get in our way as it is.
It does for the industry. It's not just footing.
They keep wanting to increase the prize money and prize money
and prize money and all of thesethings.
When in fact, if you go back through it and dissect it,

(53:40):
there's probably some places that long term they could make
some better investments on to promote what this is going to
look like in 10 years, 15 years,20 years.
So your, your trainers are goingto need to to follow suit.
I've seen major training facilities that I want to try
and and form this. It's going to sound like an

(54:04):
accusation and that's not what my intent is here, but I've seen
major training facilities that instead of improving their
ground, they would buy therapy equipment, right?
Put in a pool, do the salt waterbaths.
Right, that's what you're talking about.

(54:25):
And so to some degree, the therapy equipment became a
profit source instead of improving their ground.
So there's issues across the board.
It it's not just one thing, the whole thing has to evolve.
And that was what I alluded to before.

(54:45):
You hope and do everything that you can for everything to move
forward In Sync instead of it just one aspect and leaving the
rest of it in the dark ages. But I would take us one more key
step because I think you're on abig topic and here comes the
organization. The demands to the
organization's is too diverse and is it time to take our

(55:07):
organizations, all of them from breed associations to discipline
associations and begin to have sub?
You can structure them in a lot of different forms.
So it's not about the structure,it's about the focus to the
goal. And the point is advanced high
level performance is very different than research trying

(55:30):
to answer key questions that theentire industry is undergoing
and trying to figure out. So how do we begin to put
forces, resources and forces together to answer key things
that are different than trying to be so diverse to all?
And when we talk about I don't care cutters, cowhorses,

(55:52):
Rainers, the diversity between the non pro and hobbyist versus
the professional that's trying to earn a living and doing this
for all the economic reasons arecompletely different.
And having the same rules and regs and the same standards for
all of those groups is part of the pressure that we find
ourselves in. And then you have.

(56:13):
That's why boards get developed the way they do.
It almost sounded like you were asking on how we manage egos.
OK, goes in there too, but yeah.Go.
It's just about forward movementand I see those pressures
coming. I think the fact that the NCHA

(56:36):
Texas A&M's been around and beeninvolved in a lot of research
for a long time. Do I think that the horse
industry, I could give you a list of major research projects
that would be good for the horseindustry as a whole?
We all could. They're readily out there what's
not happening in the industry. And I would tell you, we're not

(56:56):
going to have time to talk aboutit, but the advancements and
what we're seeing right now withthe Horse Protection Act,
federal regulation on horse shows, it's coming and we'll do
it another show another time. But my point to that is what
we're seeing the need to answer key questions objectively and

(57:17):
that pressure across our disciplines and our sport is
actually growing and the resources needed to do it as an
industry level. AEP breeds all the rest of that.
The American Horse Council, state and federal governments,
yes, our ability to do that in abetter format as opposed to

(57:37):
being reactionary, because that's what we're talking about.
And I hear you loud and clear. Modern politics is another
nearer to the rest of us. In modernized society, there's
yes, it's 100% true, just on thecomma and the dollar moves over,
that's it. But otherwise it's the same

(57:57):
stuff. Yes, absolutely.
I agree. Well, I I have one more
question. Jim, we've have been around you
many, many years and and you area good outside the box thinker.
What is Kaiser development goingto do in the future?
You've you've given me great ideas about you know what your

(58:19):
what your development program is.
What's on the list for you and family?
We're going to continue to keep building drags.
I think that's going to be a little bit less of our focus
though. What I'm seeing and what our
focus is going to become is in the facility staff training and
starting to be engaged in as much of this footing testing as

(58:40):
possible. I really think that it took a
while to come to this realization, but if our focus
was going to be on managing the footing at major events, then I
think that was something that was going to keep us from being
able to move into the next step.And that was not an easy
decision to make that move away from managing the footing at

(59:02):
major events. But I want to at the end of the
story, I want to say that we kept moving forward.
And I think that this is the next step is on this testing and
this facility staff training. One thing that we've discussed
already is the shortage of qualified personnel to manage
all of these shows. And it seems like we haven't

(59:23):
been able to keep pace with thatbecause the number of events
continues to grow. I think to try and help catch
that back up, we're going to have to rely on a lot of these
facilities themselves to step upinstead of relying on an outside
source. And it's something that in the
beginning when I first started doing these facility staff

(59:44):
training things, I wasn't sure if that was the direction.
And I've actually gotten to the point now to like, I really,
really enjoy that. I like to think that 30 some
years of experience in $350 million dollars later that I've
got something to offer and the same goes with the testing of
the material and trying to give us a better surface.

(01:00:10):
I think you're hitting on a big one.
And one of the things that I've been motivated most of my
lifetime was to get documented the historical knowledge gained
through direct experience. And that's exactly what you're
talking about. And I would bring it back to now
social media and some of those things.
Can we advance all of that for the betterment of all?

(01:00:32):
I'm I'm dead guilty. I did Jodie's dad wrote a couple
books. Why didn't I know that when I
was 25 and 30 and 35 years old? I, you know, I'm, I'm 60.
And it's like, had Jack had something to offer?
Yeah, no kidding. Now here's the cool stuff,
though. It got written down and it's
there. The bad news was the ability to

(01:00:54):
disperse that and get that out to be more known as far as a
resource was not. It's just a different time.
That's what you're talking about, which is taking that set
of information, sharing that with the industry in today's
time, you do have a lot to offerand yet you're going to gain
even more. So I think that's phenomenal.

(01:01:14):
Think, you know, there's a little bit of ego involved even
on my part is I kid around aboutit.
When this is all said and done, I don't think what I want to be
remembered as is is a really good tractor driver.
Right. I think that there's so much
left that we can leave somethingand say we have really, really

(01:01:35):
advanced this across the board. A little bit of exaggeration
here, taking it out of the Dark ages.
Yeah, I think, Jimmy, I think that's, I think that's
fantastic. And I think that's a God-given
plan for, for a great future foryou and your son that's that's
going to, that's going to take over.
I'll promise you he will. I, I would think that he would
anyway. I would hope so.

(01:01:55):
But. Time will, time will tell on
that. And, you know, at 15, he doesn't
even know he has trouble matching his socks in the
morning, but he does, he does show a lot of interest in
becoming an engineer. So I think if he did decide to

(01:02:16):
take this over, he's willing to get some education that could
really help him move this forward too and and keep it
progressing. That's just it.
I I think that that's, you know,that's a just a great, great
choice for the future. I would ask, I would ask one
last question. I know I said only had one.
I I lied. If I had a barn full of 20

(01:02:36):
horses and I thought that Kaiser's not taking over the do
in the dirt at the fraturity anymore, I'd probably go into
panic mode because I'd be worried about what the Hell's
going to happen. So what the Hell's going to
happen as far as major effect footing that you have been
doing? Yeah.
I mean, I hate to throw that dart at you, but I'm like what
the hell, right? I don't know what the answer to

(01:02:59):
that is, Jody. You know, there's, there's some
guys out there that have worked with us for a long time and
hopefully time will tell. Hopefully they're able to carry
this forward. But there still is a shortage of
them. I'm hopeful that they can, but
after having worked with them aslong as I have, I feel like I've
done as much for them as I can. And the one thing that we're

(01:03:23):
going to have to understand, andhopefully it, it's very, very
minimal, is that now when the pressure is on them, they'll
have to start thinking on their own.
And who knows? This is kind of one of those
things that's tough to say. I hope they're better than I am.
Some of them, I'll, I'll tell you this, we'll see what
happens. Some of them have the potential.
We'll see what happens when theyhit that hard spot.

(01:03:46):
And what I mean is how they dealwith people and the criticism
and everything that goes with it.
And there were days I didn't do a very good job of that.
I've explained that several different times, as both of you
guys have seen this. And some people are able to
manage it better than others. There are people that I've seen
in these associations that as far as the criticism goes, they

(01:04:07):
have political ambitions, but about a year in, they start
walking around like this in a defensive position because
they're constantly under criticism.
And I'm going to tell a funny story here that you'll remember
this, just like this conversation right now.

(01:04:29):
I can remember sitting when you were the judge's monitor.
You'd get your bunch ready and rolling in the morning.
I'd get my bunch ready and roll in the morning.
And then we'd meet up in the corner and sit there and tell
some jokes or whatever. And we're sitting there 1
morning by ourselves and your world's round, my world's round.
We've got this tapped off and here comes a lifelong NRHA

(01:04:53):
member. They've been to the fraternity
probably every year since inception and she walks up to
us. We both know her well.
Really nice lady, she said. Good morning, guys.
Hey, good morning. Good morning.
Everything going? Yeah, everything's fine with me,
but I just got a question. What in the hell does somebody

(01:05:15):
have to do to market plus half around here?
And you could probably go times 2000 because that sentiment was
readily available, but. There's more in the position
that I've been in and, and again, I'll admit that I didn't
manage it well. Every day of the hours that
these deals and every other thing that goes with it.
I think that's one of the placeswhere time will tell if these

(01:05:36):
guys are able to keep moving theball forward because the amount
of criticism and everything thatgoes with it, along with the
hours and all the rest of it, itis not easy.
And it's not just the ground. And as these things keep
continuing to grow and the egos evolve and grow as well, Really,

(01:05:57):
really hard thing to do. And, and I wish them luck.
I, I didn't spend the last 30 some years trying to make this
advance just to walk away and hope that it fails.
That's certainly not the intention, but I think time
better spent for me is to move forward into the testing and the
training and and things like that.

(01:06:17):
Explore what we don't know. Maybe maybe what to to answer
your question, Jody, maybe what we do see here is what you were
talking about before that somebody else develops a company
that focuses on that. But one of the things that is
going to require is these associations facilities and all
of this budgeting for that. Absolutely good.

(01:06:41):
Very, very, very, very good point.
It comes back to the money and we're back to event production
in all of its forms, right? Managing the ground is only one
of the key spokes in the wheel of putting on an advanced level
horse sporting event. So yes, it's an important one,
but it's one of those and the industry is still yet to figure

(01:07:05):
all of that out. We are not at the level that
we're trying to go to. We're not.
I think we all want to go there,but we're just at the beginning
of that. It's going to be interesting to
see how it unfolds so. I think that like I said a
couple of times, one thing that they're going to have to realize
is that to move this forward is not solely determined by the

(01:07:25):
purse money. The rest of these things have to
keep pace as well. Absolutely.
Well, Brian, you know I hate to do it because it's been so darn
much fun. Jim, we've done one show with
you. This is an even better one.
I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed it and I miss the face
to face with you. So we do need to get together.
I mean, I saw you very briefly at the security, but you know,

(01:07:46):
we need to be able to sit down and spend a couple hours talking
about how good we were. Well, as we all know, those
those things are are really important.
They're sometimes hard to do. It does become more and more
important. One of the reasons that I'm out
here right now is because I've lost a good friend.

(01:08:06):
They look back and think, jeez, there was an opportunity to have
spent a little bit more time with him.
But we get wrapped up in life and that's what it is.
I can't tell you how much I haveenjoyed this.
The history that that the three of us have together, we've been
great friends for. I'm not going to say the number.
As long as we're still here, we're still friends, so it's all

(01:08:28):
good, yeah. Exactly.
Well, man in the arena. Jim is our man in the arena and
it's directly applicable to the Teddy quote because he was
talking about being a good citizen in modernization back at
the turn of the 20th century. So I it's just applicable
parallel directly to it. So Jim, you are our man in the

(01:08:50):
arena. I know there's a few other
colleagues that you have across the industry.
I think the exploration of what we don't know.
I commend you all on that. The NCHA for putting some
resources, one, acknowledging it, using the university system
to do that research. I think that's one of the things
that has pushed America forward in humanity.

(01:09:14):
And so we ought to be as a industry taking advantage of
that. So we wish you absolutely all
the best. You know where Jody and I in the
cowboy office are. So if we can ever be of any
help, even if it's as simple as communication or doing more
educational platforms, maybe we need to have a Kaiser
educational webinar series so that people that one have

(01:09:39):
interest to have capabilities 3 some time.
Well, then guess what? You need to call Gwen McKenzie
at Kaiser Arenas. We'll put all the attachment.
We'll put all that stuff in because what I hear Jim talking
about, they're going to go explore what we don't know and
be able to come to you to share what they do know.

(01:10:01):
I think that's huge. Well, the other part of that
Brian's is that the more educated I am, the better that
I'm going to be at the consulting work that I'm doing,
which is a, a main focus of whatI'm doing right now and going to
private facilities and helping them select their ground.
So all of this education that I get will do nothing but but

(01:10:23):
strengthen that as well. And, and that's a, I'm doing 3
or 4 consultation jobs a month and I'm looking forward to
getting better at that. So, but really, really
appreciate you guys this time and I really your idea on the
webinar thing's pretty intriguing.
I think we need to have some more conversation about that.
We will have some conversation. I want to leave us with share

(01:10:46):
our best wishes to your mom and dad, Bob and your mother as
well. But I'm just sharing on the
screen that's Bob and Jim, that is Kaiser Arenas.
My grandfather had one of those,had a first drawn 1, and I
actually used it on the farm that I built.
So when I saw this on one of your press releases, I thought

(01:11:07):
that was way cool. We can't say thank you enough,
Jim. Let's stay in touch.
Let's not take for granted tomorrow.
Let's continue to help everybodypush forward.
Until the next time, keep enjoying the ride.
Thanks, Jim. Thanks guys.
Jimmy, thank you, my friend. Stay in the middle.
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(01:11:28):
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