October 30, 2025 • 41 mins
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In this episode of Creative Crossroads, host Alan introduces esteemed chef Lucas Trahan, the chef de cuisine at Ever, a Michelin-star restaurant. Lucas shares his journey from a young boy cracking eggs with his mom to becoming a rising star pastry chef in 2021. He reflects on the pressures of high standards set by his family and mentors and how these experiences shaped his approach to creativity and excellence in the kitchen. Lucas discusses the importance of authenticity in his culinary creations and the balance between maintaining high standards and fostering a positive, respectful kitchen environment. He also delves into his creative process, which involves setting parameters and iterating on ideas until they fit his vision. Lucas emphasizes that creativity often stems from simple, humble beginnings and is refined through practice and dedication. The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion on the flavor of creativity and a reflection on Lucas's personal and professional growth.
00:00 Introduction to Lucas Trahan
00:46 Lucas's Early Inspirations
02:52 Finding Authenticity in Cooking
03:49 Working with Chef Duffy
07:07 Creative Process and Inspirations
11:59 Kitchen Dynamics and Leadership
18:33 Handling Creative Blocks
21:56 The Formula for Creativity
22:57 Balancing Creativity and Restraint
24:14 The Importance of Structure
25:14 Evaluating and Perfecting a Dish
28:17 Innovative Dishes and Cooperative Creativity
32:08 Evolving Creative Processes
33:13 Humility in Creativity
36:43 Advice to Younger Self
38:52 The Flavor of Creativity
39:50 Final Thoughts and Gratitude
Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Catherine Dutton (00:34):
Welcome back everybody to Creative
Crossroads.
I'm really excited today tointroduce our guest Lucas Trahan
he is a chef to cuisine at arestaurant called Ever.
He was previously Ever's pastrychef and he also worked with
chef Duffy at Grace from 2015 to2017 and worked on the culinary
(00:56):
teams of Fulton Market, kitchenand Pacific Standard Time.
He attended the Art Institute ofDallas and was named a rising
star pastry chef in 2021.
Welcome, Luke.
We're glad to have you.
Lucas Trahan (01:08):
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Catherine Dutton (01:11):
Yeah.
So would you like to start offby telling us just you're a chef
and how did you find that pathinto.
Lucas Trahan (01:21):
Um, well, uh, I think when I was younger.
I don't know.
I wanted to be a bunch of thingslike most kids.
I wanted to be an astronaut, um,wanted to play sports.
I wanted to act, I wanted to doall these different, things.
But, I was lucky enough torealize that I was good at
something at a young age andenjoyed at the same time.
(01:42):
It actually comes back from whenI was about, I'd say seven years
old.
I started making breakfast withmy mom and it became a game to
me to see, to learn how to crackeggs.
I wanted to be able to crack anegg in one hand, and then I
wanted to be able to crack anegg in my left hand.
And then I wanted to be able tocrack two eggs in one hand, and
(02:03):
it just turned into likesomething that was fun and
challenging for me.
Catherine Dutton (02:07):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:08):
I think slowly over time the.
The process of creatingsomething and it being
completely dependent upon youwas cathartic for me as a kid.
Catherine Dutton (02:21):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:22):
a lot of things are like, I guess like the, the
standards that I was held to,like by my dad for instance,
were very not fun.
It was like if you got anythingless than an A, you were
grounded for a long period oftime.
And anything less than perfectwas a problem.
And the expectation of alwaysbeing excellent, it gets
(02:47):
overwhelming and it getsexhausting and it gets tiring.
And, the ability to engage insomething that's completely
dependent upon you and.
Catherine Dutton (02:57):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:58):
To not have all these other things get in the
way of it.
And it's just you and the objectto see it from inception to
creation to fruition.
It is, it's just, it wascathartic as a kid.
Catherine Dutton (03:10):
Awesome.
Yeah, those expectations canreally.
Weigh down on us a lot and theopportunity to be creative in a
way that there are noexpectations other than what you
set for them, that it can feelkind of magical in a way.
Lucas Trahan (03:26):
Yeah.
It's something that I ended upmuch later in life.
There was an aha moment Iprobably went through where.
I realized that the things Icreate are for me and not for
anyone else.
And suddenly I stopped worryingso much about whether or not
something is good enough orwhether or not something is
perfect to anyone else exceptmyself.
(03:49):
I started cooking for myself andI found personally just, even
just other people's opinions aswell, like everything got
better.
It gained a voice, it gained anidentity.
It had a unique style to it.
It had a message, and it also,mostly it came down to like, it
had authenticity.
It wasn't trying to make as manypeople happy as possible.
(04:10):
It was trying to make one personhappy, my target audience, which
was me.
And I think that authenticitymeans something to people,
Catherine Dutton (04:18):
mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (04:19):
when it comes to a creative.
Catherine Dutton (04:22):
I find that so,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:23):
clearly being in a position that you're in,
like in a Michelin starrestaurant, being able to create
like that, obviously, chef Duffyhas seen your creativity and.
Affirms it and has affirmed whoyou are and what you do.
Lucas Trahan (04:39):
He is
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:39):
probably not every day.
Right?
Lucas Trahan (04:41):
No, he is, uh, I think again, growing up the way
that I did, I have a benefit ofknowing how to work with him a
little bit better than maybesome people do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:50):
Sure.
Lucas Trahan (04:51):
Um, he is.
In his, uh, I'd say in his likesilver years, he's learning and
growing just like we all do.
It's inspiring to see, he'schanging the way he interacts
with people and the way that heruns his business as it grows,
right?
So it's, it's inspiring to watchand see and, and be reminded
(05:12):
that, there is no, you're neverdone, right?
There's always room to improve.
But he's very much, for thelongest time that I knew him, it
was very much a no news is goodnews kind of guy.
And as long as,'cause you haveto understand like he's always
watching and if he doesn't sayno, then that means it's yes.
But like if, if you don't havethe ability to be confident in
(05:37):
what you do and have thatauthenticity and integrity, then
it'll start to weigh down on youbecause you're like, well, do
you like it?
Do you not like it?
Catherine Dutton (05:45):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (05:46):
It was hard at first, but I adapted pretty
quickly to it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:49):
So you have a lot of freedom.
Do you have a lot of freedom inwhat you create and what you
make?
Lucas Trahan (05:54):
Oh, I can make anything I want as long as it is
good.
It makes sense.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:59):
That's so cool.
Lucas Trahan (06:00):
It's hard to explain that.
Yes, we have a, there'sdefinitely a style and a voice
that ever, um, that is.
Chef Duffy's, but ultimately itis mostly my menu at this point.
He's got a few things that heintroduces that, um, he wants on
(06:21):
there, and it's his restaurant.
Obviously, they're gonna bethere.
But truly it's after workingwith him for so long, um, the
things that I make already inthat, that voice.
Um, and it excites me becausethere are some things I don't
do.
Because it's like, I know thatthat's not, I guess I would say
(06:45):
like, yeah, a chef is creativeand all that kind of stuff, but
honestly too, like when you'rein the role of a chef to
cuisine, your job is to kind ofbe the, I almost say like the
prophet or the evangelist,right?
You're the mouthpiece, right?
You have to take the message, ifyou will, and then translate it.
So that it makes sense.
(07:06):
It carries through.
It's, it's, it's true to whatthe source material is.
And so I guess in that sense,there are some confines to what
I make.
But the way that he and Iapproach things and what we
think is good and bad and whatwe enjoy and don't enjoy align
in a lot of places.
So I don't even really want tomake the things that he thinks
(07:28):
are dumb, You know what I mean?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:31):
Yeah, that
Lucas Trahan (07:32):
We have a very, we have a very similar, uh, I, I
would say palette and profile.
Catherine Dutton (07:37):
okay.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:37):
That makes sense.
That's why you work welltogether.
Yeah.
So where do you start like to,in creating a new dish, what's
the inspiration?
Does it start with theingredients that are available?
Does it start somewhere else?
Lucas Trahan (07:51):
I wish that was a clean answer.
Um, it comes from anything,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:56):
I.
Lucas Trahan (07:56):
it really does.
It stems from anywhere.
Sometimes.
It is an ingredient and you'relike, man, I just wanna work
with mangoes this summer.
I'm gonna do something withmangoes.
I don't know what, but that'swhat I want.
Sometimes it's a combination oftwo things and you're like, man,
it's this and that, and they goreally well together and I wanna
carry that.
Sometimes it's a thought, or amemory trying to.
(08:22):
Pay homage to something youexperienced and you want to
elevate it, and not be so tonguein cheek, right.
I'm not the kind of personwho're gonna be like, well this
is mom's mac and cheese, youknow, but I'll, if I approach a
dish or course, or even anexperience, is something more
the lines of like, how can Icapture the essence, the idea,
(08:42):
the concept of mom's mac andcheese and create it in a way
that isn't about meat.
So I want other people toexperience the same thing that I
did.
The safety, the deliciousness,the textures, everything that
goes around it without beinglike, this is my mom's mac and
cheese.
Because when it comes to art forme, one thing that I don't like
(09:06):
is when an artist puts too muchof themselves into the product.
Catherine Dutton (09:10):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (09:11):
Which sounds silly because to me, like.
There's nothing more transparentthan art, right?
You can't, art is nothing butthe artist, but it's like, how
do I say it?
It's, it's also art is only artif the viewer can perceive it to
have a deeper meaning.
Catherine Dutton (09:32):
Mm.
Lucas Trahan (09:35):
like paintings for instance, right?
If an artist makes a paintingand then they tell you, this is
what it means and this is theonly meaning that it has and
this is what you're supposed tofeel.
Catherine Dutton (09:44):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (09:44):
It's not, not art, right, but it really limits the
scope of what that art iscapable of accomplishing.
And so in that sense, if, yeah,in that sense, if I have a very,
very personal connection tosomething.
I'm not gonna make thatconnection known.
It'll serve as deep inspiration.
If someone wants to ask, I'llgladly explain the root of it.
Catherine Dutton (10:08):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (10:08):
that's for me, right?
That's my experience with it.
Um, and it doesn't need to bepushed down anyone's throat.
It's for someone to engage withand come to their own
conclusions.
And that's really to me, whatart is about.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:21):
Do you get a lot of feedback on the things
that you prepare?
Lucas Trahan (10:24):
Yeah, we actually do a lot of kitchen tours and so
people come back and, it's funto watch them because, you know,
the way the restaurant operates,it's, it's very much, I don't
wanna say separated, like the,the, the kitchen is the
heartbeat of the restaurant.
Back at Grace, it used to be, Iused to call it a fishbowl,
(10:44):
because the dining room wasorganized, so.
There were rows of chairs allkind of angled 45 degrees at the
table so that you were lookingdirectly at this giant bright,
open glass kitchen.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:57):
Ah.
Lucas Trahan (10:57):
Right?
And the lights in the diningroom were lower and the kitchen
glowed.
And it was like, it wasbeautiful, but it was like you
came here, so you watched thekitchen ever, I believe is a
perfect blend between the twowhere you.
You hear the kitchen, right?
We all call in you.
(11:18):
There's a, there's a whole lotof like ethos behind the
restaurant and how we operateand rules and standards and like
the acting that we play.
Like when, when someone, when aticket's ordered in, right?
The expediter calls like orderin two and everyone calls back
together like two.
That way it's like all of asudden there's like 10 voices
all at once saying the exactsame thing at the exact same
pitch, and you can't hear itsuper clearly in the dining
(11:41):
room.
We have, again, a lot of thingsthat make it very plush and
comfortable, but you know thatsomething's going on back there
and you know that it has to begoing on and it has to be going
on well, because things keepcoming up and rapid beautifully
time per session with meticulousdesign and, and, and intention.
And when people get back there,they're always surprised and
(12:04):
blown away.
Um.
There's always like a wow, youknow?
And then you see them and theystart to like, see the
ingredients that they recognizeand like, oh, that's what that
is, or, oh, that's how they dothat, or, oh, wow.
You know?
And it is, it's very rewarding.
I like it mostly too for thecooks.
They get to get feedback, andthen I encourage like the client
to engage with the cook, becauseI mean, like those are, I have
(12:25):
the easiest job.
I got the easiest job there.
I walk around and I complain,and that's it.
Like that's.
my job at the end of the day.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:34):
That's so great, but I'll bet the
atmosphere in the kitchen reallyimpacts your creativity and
influences.
Because you, I mean, you see alot of movies and TV shows and
it gets kind of ugly sometimes,and that would, that kind of
negative atmosphere would kindof beat you down after a while.
Lucas Trahan (12:51):
I believe in, um, like, honestly like respect and
positivity and, uh.
And when I, when I came into theCDC role, I really did approach
it, from like a gentle parentingperspective, right?
Where it's like, Hey, it's okay.
Mistakes happen, we'll get'emnext time, this, that, and the
other round.
But then there was a, a dipinconsistency in quality.
(13:15):
And, um, I think that thatapproach is the way, and it's
the way that I would love tocarry it.
That puts the onus on eachindividual to have, integrity
and standards that meet orexceed my own.
(13:36):
I think that that's all well andgood, but also in the same
mentality, like if you'reworking with me or you're
working at this level in anycapacity, because, you know, all
high-end Michelin restaurantscarry the same weight and
intensity.
Like you're choosing to engagein a world where everything
matters and mistakes are notallowed.
(13:57):
Not only from a, you know, we'rehunting for that third star
mentality, right?
It has to be perfect, but alsofrom, I mean, people come in and
they'll spend rent and ondinner, you know, like it, you
walk out of ever spending wellover a thousand dollars and it
is.
To me, it is beyond rude to theguest, to not afford them
(14:23):
excellence and perfection, atleast within the confines of
what a human is capable of.
And, so, you know, I think I, Iapproach it from a very coaching
mentality, but at the same timetoo, I need them to understand
that this has been a 17 yearlong journey for me.
And right now where we'resitting, we're very close.
When they just don't feel likedoing it right because it, it
(14:45):
is, it's negligence.
Then I do have to let, like Itake it personally, right?
I've bled for this, I've workedfor this, I've been through
everything for this.
And if they want to be great,they have to hold themselves to
a higher standard on their own.
And if they're not going to,then somebody has to.
Which again, it's anotherbenefit of my childhood and
being with my dad, and the wayhe was.
(15:07):
I don't want people to live inthat world.
But I think it's important toengage with it.
Caring is cool and dedicatingyourself to something is not
embarrassing, you know?
Of course I'm the boss.
I know they talk behind my backand they say things right,
because that's, that's, that'swhat it is, right?
It's important.
Like
Catherine Dutton (15:25):
the nature of being the boss, like, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (15:27):
I'm the bad guy.
Always will be.
And that's fine.
I have a wonderful partner athome that takes, you know, she
loves me and she.
I don't lose any sleep at night.
If a cook thinks I'm an asshole,I don't care.
Um, because the one thing that Iwould care about is if they were
like, he's a fraud.
(15:47):
he's a hack.
He's a hypocrite.
He doesn't hold himself to thesame standards that he holds us
to.
He is a liar.
He's in it for the show.
It's all fake and pretend thatis what would, that's what would
keep me up at night is thatintegrity.
And so, yeah, I do.
Sometimes I raise my voice, Iget angry, because, you know,
(16:09):
maybe the same mistake hashappened five times and it's
like, figure it out at somepoint.
Like you have to be like, do youwant to be here or not?
And for me, the creative side, alot of it stems from this just
unrelenting passion where it'slike three stars or die.
(16:29):
Like it's, there is no otheroption.
There is no plan B.
Catherine Dutton (16:33):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (16:35):
I mean, there is secretly, right?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (16:36):
You wanna share that with us?
The secret.
Lucas Trahan (16:39):
oh, the secret to plan B is you, you have to, in
my opinion, at least in acreative role that is, like
leadership driven, where youhave a team that has to execute,
you have to let people fail, andyou have to consciously let it
go wrong.
You can't.
Helicopter.
You can't follow them all day.
You can't just carry everything.
(16:59):
You have to let them fail.
You have to let them know theyfail.
You have to really push them tofix it themselves, but you
already have to have thesolution ready so that once they
exhaust their attempt, we stillcan't afford failure.
Right.
So it's not allowed, but youhave to let it happen.
(17:22):
That's really like my secret,I've found, and sometimes it
works, most of the time itworks, but, it demands a lot out
of leadership, I do think thatthat's what creates better
employees, better cooks andinspires them to know that
mistakes happen.
And it's more about the beingsolution oriented, right?
Like.
Catherine Dutton (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (17:42):
I see the sauce is like, I get it.
I know.
Like I, I'm aware something'swrong.
So what are we gonna do?
Like it has happened.
It has already happened.
Whether it was on purpose,whether it was an accident, it
doesn't matter.
To me.
That's really, it doesn'tmatter.
Let's look at what it is.
It's wrong.
So how are we gonna fix it?
Is it adjustable?
Can we remedy the situation?
Or instead of wasting timepanicking, do we just throw it
(18:05):
out?
Start over.
Whatever it is, let's make adecision.
Let's be confident in thatdecision and let's move forward
together.
Catherine Dutton (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (18:14):
So yeah, tensions get high, but at the end of the
day, I hope that I create anenvironment where like, I am
upset because I believe in youand you're letting me and
yourself down is what
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:28):
That's
Lucas Trahan (18:29):
I try to bring.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:30):
Yeah.
So when you get home, do youcook?
Lucas Trahan (18:33):
I meal prep on the weekends.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:35):
All right.
Lucas Trahan (18:35):
Recently I got into it.
My partner, she's helped mereally kind of reevaluate my
health and what I do in life andmy own diet at home because, I
don't like cooking at home.
It's, you know, burnout is real.
And the last thing I wanna doafter a long day is come home
and do more of it.
But, she's really helped me alot, on the weekends.
And I'll do a lot of mealprepping and we'll just plan out
a couple meals for the week.
(18:57):
Do it so that there's just,either it's just warming
something up or just a finishingthing at the end of the night so
we can eat a fresh, healthymeal.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:05):
That's
Catherine Dutton (19:05):
That makes sense.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:07):
That's good.
So what happens when you run outof ideas like you need to be
constantly coming up with newmenu items or new ideas and new
things.
What do you do when, when youburn out or when you run dry?
Lucas Trahan (19:20):
how do I say this?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:21):
Do you not burn
Lucas Trahan (19:22):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
There's, there's some timeswhere I don't have any ideas.
Things are hard.
I might be in like a, I be goingthrough a state of depression, I
might be exhausted,understaffed, life's getting in
the way, things like that.
But then, I don't know, there'sthis other side to it where it's
(19:45):
like nobody cares.
Like nobody cares about yourproblems.
At the end of the day, and Ibranded and sold myself as this
person that is capable, and so Idon't get to not be capable.
So whenever that does happen,you just, I don't know, you
(20:07):
throw shit at the wall until itsticks.
You just keep trying.
Keep going, keep pushing.
Try something new.
Just do something, anything.
Just keep moving.
And eventually in one moment,you'll find one thing that
you'll latch onto and be like,actually, I can do something
with this.
And then sometimes that's allyou need, especially when I'm in
a creative block like that.
I just need one, just one littleidea, one little victory in that
(20:28):
moment.
And I'm like, oh, there it is.
Now I see it.
And even sometimes I'm workingon a dish.
And I'm stuck on it.
I'm like, it's missingsomething.
I just don't know what it is,but I'm not happy.
There's been multiple timeswhere it's like, sometimes
you'll just wake up at like fourin the morning and in the middle
of the night and I'll, I'llshake my partner awake and I'll
(20:48):
just be like, I'm sorry, but Ineed to tell you this right now
before it disappears into Ether.
it's like you just wake up andyou're like, oh, I've got it.
That's it.
That's it.
I'm gonna completely throweverything out and do this
instead.
I figured it out.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:04):
To hear you say that because that's kind of
how I create.
I often wake up out of a deepsleep with like, oh, you know,
like in my, in my brain, I'mcalculating dimensions for a
quilt or, or something, youknow?
Yeah.
And I'll jump out of bed and runand get a sketchbook and just
like, I gotta get this downbecause it'll be gone in the
morning.
Lucas Trahan (21:23):
exactly.
There's something that's soimportant about that.
I think that, again, kinda likewhat you mentioned about like
restaurants and movies and likehow they portray the intensity
and the negativity and all thatkind of stuff.
I think that's something aboutthe creative life as well.
You watch movies about artistsand stuff and there's this
beautiful montage of them likepondering and painting and
(21:44):
scratching out you know what Imean?
As if it's some organic linearjourney.
Sometimes you have the idea andit's just there.
Every bit of it, every piece ofit falls into place perfectly.
And sometimes you're looking ata bunch of puzzle pieces that
don't fit and you know, thatdon't fit, but they have to
because you can see it.
You just don't know how itworks.
(22:05):
And I think that there'ssomething that there is to be
said about that, that like youhave to capitalize on that.
There is some insanity increation and you have to like
embrace it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:16):
There's our quote right there.
There's some insanity andcreation.
Catherine Dutton (22:19):
I like that very
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:21):
I like that a lot.
Yeah.
Catherine Dutton (22:23):
Can you walk us through what it looks like
for you to, as you're developinga menu or a dish, how do you
approach that?
Lucas Trahan (22:30):
So I think at this point in my career, I do have a
formula, that I really adhereto.
Something I actually, I'velearned from, chef Duffy.
'Cause it is a great, I wouldsay like base, right?
Pick three flavors you wannawork with
Catherine Dutton (22:44):
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (22:45):
and then go from there.
Because I think one of thebiggest enemies of creatives is
creativity.
Catherine Dutton (22:57):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (22:58):
because you can do whatever you want.
There are no rules, right?
We write the rules.
And the ability to, right?
Everyone says, think outside thebox.
Think outside the box.
And I think that that's,important for young people to
hear that, to understand thatlike you do, like don't think,
(23:21):
don't, don't conform, right?
Like, give yourself the freedomto ask why.
Question things, challenge thenorms, all that kind of stuff.
But as I've progressed and as I,there's an expectation for the
product that I deliver, again,you don't get the luxury to be
like, oh, that one didn't reallypan out.
Oh, well, you know, um, you haveto have a formula.
(23:45):
Yeah, exactly right.
Like especially, you know, whenyou're working with an expensive
product.
Catherine Dutton (23:51):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (23:52):
Right.
Like at least with food in away, it's a little bit more, uh,
forgiving because you need tonsof that product ad nauseum to
have a restaurant anyways.
But, you know, I, I, I liken itto like a sculptor, right?
That big old hunk of marble, youdon't get to mess up.
(24:13):
You know, like if you're workingon it and then you accidentally
break the finger off at the veryend, like that's.
Yikes, man.
Catherine Dutton (24:21):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (24:24):
you know, um, I think as an artist we all need
to understand those sameconcepts and respect the
ingredients that we're workingwith.
And no matter how cheap orexpensive they are, wasting is
not a luxury that we can everafford.
I guess another, another linethat like I have learned over
the years is that like the markof mastery is restraint.
People who are great atsomething do it with less.
(24:48):
And so it's not so much thinkingoutside of the box, but it's
creating the own box that youwant to exist in.
And you need to provide confinesfor your creativity.
Otherwise you'll never finish aproduct and.
You'll have a thousand prettycool, almost done ideas nothing
(25:13):
to show for it.
you have to like really giveyourself a box.
You have to work inside of yourown box, because otherwise it is
in infinity is a veryintimidating thing.
I don't know if anyone like sitsdown and tries to like think
about what that concept is, butit is obviously so impossibly
large that you can't even beginto.
(25:34):
Approach it.
And that's really whatcreativity is, right?
There's no confines there.
You can do whatever you want.
So you have to make a box foryourself to operate in,
otherwise you simply will justkeep going.
Right?
So that's really the, the, the,the key is having my formulas
like the three ingredients.
And then once you start messingaround with the idea, I have a,
(25:59):
like, I guess I would say like abackground rubric.
Right.
What's, what's the mouth feel?
What's the texture?
What's the temperature?
What's the intended purpose?
Where does it sit in a menu?
What am I trying to accomplishwith this?
And is it good, really?
And those are basically likethe, the criteria that, like I
look at it by, because there'sno definition of form when it
(26:22):
comes to Michelin.
I serve things on pieces ofdriftwood and I serve things on
China.
There's finger food, there'ssteak, you know, there's soup.
There's experience moments,right?
Where it's like this is abubbling thing that's in front
of you that you have to engagewith.
There is the tactile moment oflike, how does the guest engage
(26:46):
with this?
How does the silverware feel intheir hands?
What does the Civil War soundlike on that certain piece of
China?
How.
How do we engage with that?
How is that gonna be when I'vehealth people sitting around'em
are all doing the same thing?
Is that annoying?
Eh, that kind of grates me alittle bit.
Maybe we don't do that.
Maybe it's a different vesselthat we need to use.
How does it feel in the hand?
Is it, are you, is it intendedto be picked up?
Is it intended to be viewed?
(27:07):
It's really like little bylittle building that box that
I'm gonna work inside of, inorder to have a completed idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:17):
So that's your structure.
Lucas Trahan (27:19):
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:19):
You need some structure to work with them.
Lucas Trahan (27:23):
yeah.
That's a really good way toexplain everything I said in one
word.
That's a better way to do it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:27):
No, I like your explanation.
No, your explanation was great.
I appreciate that.
Catherine Dutton (27:32):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:33):
How do you know.
When a dish is, is perfected, isready, is finished, do you, how
do you know when to stop whenyou meet?
All those criteria, I guess.
Lucas Trahan (27:47):
That's been the hardest one.
Honestly.
That's the hardest one.
But I need to look at it from asense of like, yeah, this has
checked all those boxes.
I could add more, but at whatpoint is that just useless
fluff, like, diminishingreturns.
And then, you know, sometimesit's like I have a couple really
good ideas and I'm like, well,why don't I just save those
(28:09):
ideas for another thing?
Like what I'm not trying tolike.
Waste all my in one go.
Right?
I also have to have therealistic side of it to be like,
well, we need some longevityhere.
You know, like Apple, you know,whatever big companies, you
gotta respect'em, right?
They only release minuteupgrades each time.
(28:30):
If they released their latestversion of everything every
year, we wouldn't have a phoneevery year to sell.
So they have to have a productto sell.
So they have to innovate, butthen only release some of that
innovation at a time becausethey need to.
Maintain the illusion that theyare never not coming up with
something new, you know?
Catherine Dutton (28:48):
I like that idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:49):
Makes sense.
Catherine Dutton (28:51):
Can you tell us about a dish that has really
excited you?
Lucas Trahan (28:55):
I think the best way to describe that, it's not
so much recent, but it's thisidea of like, cooperative
creativity.
Catherine Dutton (29:03):
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (29:03):
When I first took over as a pastry chef at ever, I
wanted to do beets and cheesefor a dessert course.
Um, and this is, this is alljust a great lesson for me,
right.
But, uh, it really leads intoeverything I was just kind of
saying, but.
I had all these things and allthese ingredients, and then I
ended up make, like, we ended upmaking cream cheese, ice cream.
(29:24):
And I was like, how do I justget these things together?
And um, it was a morning and Deyand I were working together and
he just, like, literally it was,it was we, I like put ice cream
in the bowl and I tried to dustit and everything.
I was like, I don't because Ibeep powder.
I was like, I don't know how tomake this look good.
And he was like, and then hejust kinda looked at me and he
was like, well, you get todecide what's good, right?
He's like, if you don't think itlooks good, then like, make it
(29:45):
look good.
Like, what?
How do you, what do you want?
And I was like, oh, damn.
It's that easy, isn't it?
Like, it's really that easy.
And then he just took a spoonand smashed it instead.
And all of a sudden it wasbeautiful.
And I was like, okay, actually Ihate you again.
I was like, how did you justeffortlessly do that?
But you know, that's why we seekto, work under talented people
because we learned from them.
(30:06):
But, I think that one reallysticks out to me, because it
was, when I, when I really dothink about like things that
made'em really proud of thatone.
Was it, it was literally, it wasbee powder and cream cheese, ice
cream.
That's it.
And it's one of the most divinethings I've ever had ever.
It's so good.
Catherine Dutton (30:25):
How did you come up with that idea of like
beets and cream cheese together?
Lucas Trahan (30:29):
I mean, I don't know.
Uh, it's, it's, I guess I can,I'll also in like my creative
process, right?
Like, I like to approach food,from a very approachable way.
I never wanna be one of thosechefs that makes weird food for
the sake of it, right?
I want it to be relatable.
I want it to be approachable.
I want it to be.
Challenging, thought provoking,maybe potentially generate
(30:53):
discourse, but not necessarilylike, challenge people in their
definition of what food is.
You know, there's some of theserestaurants out there where
they're like rabbit brains andfried dragonflies and, and like,
why?
You know, it's one thing if it'slike, you know, a cultural,
(31:13):
staple and that's your historyand background and you wanna
showcase that.
Like in Latin cuisine, you know,the use of insects, crickets,
scorpions, things like that.
At least it has like a culturalimplication.
And then you're like, well, Imean this has been a delicacy
for thousands of years, right?
And then you go, you look atother chefs that are like, no,
I'm gonna serve live cuttlefishfor no reason other than I think
(31:33):
it's weird, you know, and you'relike, that's stupid.
That's really dumb.
Um, but I want it to beapproachable.
So I really stick to simplecommon flavors.
And so in that space of, youknow, beets and cheese, like, I
don't know if, if you have theopportunity, but you should go
to any, I would say hipsterrestaurant in like the
(31:56):
springtime and everyone willhave a beet and barta salad,
beets, barta and mint done.
Right?
And so you start to then.
know the rules of engagement.
So now you can break the rulesand you say, okay, beets, and
then what?
Something that's fatty andcreamy and UNC anxious, okay, in
this case it's burrata, but whatelse fits that role, you know,
(32:19):
in the world of cheese?
Well, anything really.
So then you start to break itdown and you start to say, okay,
so beets and cheese, well, howdo I, you know?
And then it just turns into,well, cream cheese, ice cream,
lemon, vanilla beets have a lotof natural sugar in them.
Catherine Dutton (32:34):
Mm.
Lucas Trahan (32:34):
There's a savoriness there, there's a
complexity of flavor, thingslike that.
Catherine Dutton (32:40):
That's really cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:42):
Do you feel like your process is still
evolving or have you locked inand this is how you're gonna
create for the rest of yourlife?
Lucas Trahan (32:51):
it is definitely still evolving.
I learn new things about what Ithink, and I grow in my opinions
of things every single day,every single.
Thing that I create, I learnsomething new.
And then sometimes I also liketo revisit past ideas that I've
had because it's like, well, howcan I do that better knowing
(33:11):
what I know now?
Right?
How do I make this, I don'tknow, better might not be the
right word, but how do I makethis fit my current voice?
How do I make this true to mycurrent self?
Because this exists in the etheris something I've made, but like
I don't even agree with itanymore.
I don't believe in thatprinciple anymore.
So how do I make it relevant tocurrent me?
(33:31):
Um, no.
I will always be evolving andgrowing.
At least I hope.
I think the day that I looksomeone in the eyes and say that
I figured it out, um, I think isthe day that someone should call
me a liar personally, at least.
Catherine Dutton (33:47):
Has there been a specific moment that you can
think of that shifted for youhow you see creativity in food?
Lucas Trahan (33:54):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, yes.
Uh, when I was still in Dallas,I was working at a place called,
FT 33.
Catherine Dutton (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (34:09):
And, I tried this one thing, it was on the menu.
I just started, I was young, Iwas like 20, I think I was 20 at
the time.
And it was just chard, pini withlemon juice and the targa over
the top, which is like a cured,fish product.
And it, I don't know how itchanged, it changed everything
(34:34):
on how I viewed food because.
It was humble, right?
Like rapini is just, broccoli,right?
It's just a kind of broccoli andit was just cooked on open fire
on a grill and just some lemonjuice on it, and then a cured
fish product.
That's like, it's, it's aundesirable portion of the fish
(34:57):
at the end of the day that'scured and used and, and, you
know, a lot of, a lot of foodhas very humble origins.
For sustenance and need.
Right?
So I had this thing that it wasreally just humble.
It was simple, humble, um, itwasn't claiming to be anything
that it wasn't, and yet it wasdelicious and it was
(35:21):
life-changing.
And it hit me with this ideathat like, creativity is not.
That creative sometimes, youknow, sometimes it is, it's
humble.
You don't need expensive thingsto be good at something you
don't need.
(35:42):
I don't know.
It's, it's, it changed my lifein a lot of ways.
It taught me how to be a betterpartner.
As I've grown, I've appliedthose same concepts to a lot of
things in life.
You know, uh, you want a strong,solid foundation.
You want.
Trustworthiness.
You want a rock hard, you know,partner.
Well, it's not grand acts ofkindness and love, right?
Like, yeah, those are great.
Sure.
(36:02):
And they're memorable.
But it's, it's showing up daily.
It's the maintenance, it's thesmall acts here and there at
every single step that like,make something real.
And so it taught me like thisconcept of creativity is not
some magical mind blowing.
Aha moment, per se.
(36:24):
Right?
It was humble, it was practice,it was dedication.
It was, you know, like acreative is only as creative as
they know.
Catherine Dutton (36:34):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (36:36):
I might be a creative, but I can't draw.
I don't know how to draw.
I'm terrible at it.
I don't have the skill for it.
I never went to school for it.
I don't practice it, so I cannotever bring to life what I see in
my head.
I try.
But then again, I also don'tdedicate myself in practice, so
how could I be good at it?
Catherine Dutton (36:55):
Right.
Lucas Trahan (36:55):
And that's, that to me was what that rapini was.
It was like, this is thedefinition of humility and
knowing that like, it just, thisis what it takes.
This, to me, this is excellence.
This is perfection.
It's not over designed, it's notover complicated.
It's humble.
And it's just honest.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:16):
So.
Catherine Dutton (37:16):
sounds,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:17):
if Luke today could go back and talk to that
20-year-old newly minted chef,what, what would you tell him?
Lucas Trahan (37:24):
Luke is a shithead man.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:26):
mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (37:28):
Um.
I don't know.
I, I, I've been asked thatquestion like, you know, even
along the lines of like, whatwould you tell younger chefs?
Like what piece of advice wouldyou give?
You know, anyone.
And honestly, it's kind of like,just shut up and listen, you
know, probably like talk less.
But again, I got where I am bymaking gobs of mistakes, know?
(37:51):
Um.
I got where I am today.
Honestly, I find a lot of mydedication and fortitude and
courage and strength come from,a drug addiction in my past.
And they come from all theseplaces where, I wouldn't change
it.
I wouldn't go back and changeit.
I wouldn't tell young Luke like,Hey, don't go to that party.
You know, because who I am todaywould be not me.
Catherine Dutton (38:17):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (38:19):
So it's hard.
I've always tried to find ananswer to that question and
like, I think, yeah, on thesurface, check your ego.
The sooner you throw that outthe door, the better you'll be.
But that has to be an organicchoice you make as an
individual.
Something in life has to humbleyou in whatever form it is, and
you have to realize that that'snot what it's about.
(38:40):
But that has to come on your ownterms a little bit.
So I don't know.
I'd probably just tell him somerandom interesting fact that
doesn't really apply toanything, but it's kind of vague
a little bit, you know, like
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:52):
Sounds
Catherine Dutton (38:53):
him guessing a little bit.
Lucas Trahan (38:54):
yeah.
You know, maybe like a Bob Rosstype thing, you know?
If you can relate somethingvague enough to a simple concept
one day, someone will have alight bulb moment about it, you
know?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:06):
Love
Catherine Dutton (39:06):
I love it.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:08):
That's great.
Catherine Dutton (39:09):
So I have a silly, bizarre question just to
kind of wrap us up today.
I have loved what you have saidabout creativity and about
thinking about it.
I like the idea of givingourselves parameters, but also
the beauty and the simplicity ofthings that we make.
Okay.
But my silly question is, ifcreativity had a flavor, what
(39:30):
would it taste like to you?
Lucas Trahan (39:32):
It would probably be very sour
Catherine Dutton (39:37):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (39:37):
and very astringent.
I don't think it would besomething that people would
enjoy to eat.
Catherine Dutton (39:47):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (39:48):
I think it would be an acquired taste,
Catherine Dutton (39:50):
Ah, I like that.
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (39:53):
you know?
You know what I mean?
Like, you know, you look, dad,how can you drink that?
It's scotch, it's disgusting,goes, oh, you wouldn't
understand, right?
Catherine Dutton (39:58):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (39:59):
that is how I see it.
It's something that it looks, itprobably looks really cool.
It's a really beautiful color.
You know?
It looks juicy.
But it doesn't taste good.
Catherine Dutton (40:12):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (40:13):
'cause I think to me, the reward of creativity is
the struggle.
Catherine Dutton (40:19):
Wow.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:22):
That's pretty cool.
Catherine Dutton (40:23):
That's pretty cool.
Well, I think that's a beautifulplace for us to end our
conversation today actually.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:31):
It's been great.
Catherine Dutton (40:32):
I really appreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today
Lucas Trahan (40:35):
Oh, I am thrilled and honored and thank you for
reaching out.
And Alan, thank you too forthinking about me.
It's a beautiful full circlemoment to get to talk to you in
this capacity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:46):
we didn't really get into this, but uh,
yeah, Luke's been part of mylife since he was about 10 years
old.
So it, it's great to see you andI love seeing your success and
seeing pictures of yourcreations online and just, just
hearing about it.
It's wonderful.
Lucas Trahan (41:02):
Well, of course.
Hopefully I can, hopefully weget, you know, more growth in
the future and I only getbetter, but we'll see.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:09):
Feel free to drop by my house and cook for me
anytime you're in town.
Lucas Trahan (41:13):
All right.
Catherine Dutton (41:14):
Well, thank you so
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:15):
you.
Lucas Trahan (41:16):
thank you so much.
It was an honor.
Appreciate it.
Welcome back everybody to Creative
Crossroads.
I'm really excited today tointroduce our guest Lucas Trahan
he is a chef to cuisine at arestaurant called Ever.
He was previously Ever's pastrychef and he also worked with
chef Duffy at Grace from 2015 to2017 and worked on the culinary
(00:56):
teams of Fulton Market, kitchenand Pacific Standard Time.
He attended the Art Institute ofDallas and was named a rising
star pastry chef in 2021.
Welcome, Luke.
We're glad to have you.
Lucas Trahan (01:08):
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Catherine Dutton (01:11):
Yeah.
So would you like to start offby telling us just you're a chef
and how did you find that pathinto.
Lucas Trahan (01:21):
Um, well, uh, I think when I was younger.
I don't know.
I wanted to be a bunch of thingslike most kids.
I wanted to be an astronaut, um,wanted to play sports.
I wanted to act, I wanted to doall these different, things.
But, I was lucky enough torealize that I was good at
something at a young age andenjoyed at the same time.
(01:42):
It actually comes back from whenI was about, I'd say seven years
old.
I started making breakfast withmy mom and it became a game to
me to see, to learn how to crackeggs.
I wanted to be able to crack anegg in one hand, and then I
wanted to be able to crack anegg in my left hand.
And then I wanted to be able tocrack two eggs in one hand, and
(02:03):
it just turned into likesomething that was fun and
challenging for me.
Catherine Dutton (02:07):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:08):
I think slowly over time the.
The process of creatingsomething and it being
completely dependent upon youwas cathartic for me as a kid.
Catherine Dutton (02:21):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:22):
a lot of things are like, I guess like the, the
standards that I was held to,like by my dad for instance,
were very not fun.
It was like if you got anythingless than an A, you were
grounded for a long period oftime.
And anything less than perfectwas a problem.
And the expectation of alwaysbeing excellent, it gets
(02:47):
overwhelming and it getsexhausting and it gets tiring.
And, the ability to engage insomething that's completely
dependent upon you and.
Catherine Dutton (02:57):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (02:58):
To not have all these other things get in the
way of it.
And it's just you and the objectto see it from inception to
creation to fruition.
It is, it's just, it wascathartic as a kid.
Catherine Dutton (03:10):
Awesome.
Yeah, those expectations canreally.
Weigh down on us a lot and theopportunity to be creative in a
way that there are noexpectations other than what you
set for them, that it can feelkind of magical in a way.
Lucas Trahan (03:26):
Yeah.
It's something that I ended upmuch later in life.
There was an aha moment Iprobably went through where.
I realized that the things Icreate are for me and not for
anyone else.
And suddenly I stopped worryingso much about whether or not
something is good enough orwhether or not something is
perfect to anyone else exceptmyself.
(03:49):
I started cooking for myself andI found personally just, even
just other people's opinions aswell, like everything got
better.
It gained a voice, it gained anidentity.
It had a unique style to it.
It had a message, and it also,mostly it came down to like, it
had authenticity.
It wasn't trying to make as manypeople happy as possible.
(04:10):
It was trying to make one personhappy, my target audience, which
was me.
And I think that authenticitymeans something to people,
Catherine Dutton (04:18):
mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (04:19):
when it comes to a creative.
Catherine Dutton (04:22):
I find that so,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:23):
clearly being in a position that you're in,
like in a Michelin starrestaurant, being able to create
like that, obviously, chef Duffyhas seen your creativity and.
Affirms it and has affirmed whoyou are and what you do.
Lucas Trahan (04:39):
He is
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:39):
probably not every day.
Right?
Lucas Trahan (04:41):
No, he is, uh, I think again, growing up the way
that I did, I have a benefit ofknowing how to work with him a
little bit better than maybesome people do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:50):
Sure.
Lucas Trahan (04:51):
Um, he is.
In his, uh, I'd say in his likesilver years, he's learning and
growing just like we all do.
It's inspiring to see, he'schanging the way he interacts
with people and the way that heruns his business as it grows,
right?
So it's, it's inspiring to watchand see and, and be reminded
(05:12):
that, there is no, you're neverdone, right?
There's always room to improve.
But he's very much, for thelongest time that I knew him, it
was very much a no news is goodnews kind of guy.
And as long as,'cause you haveto understand like he's always
watching and if he doesn't sayno, then that means it's yes.
But like if, if you don't havethe ability to be confident in
(05:37):
what you do and have thatauthenticity and integrity, then
it'll start to weigh down on youbecause you're like, well, do
you like it?
Do you not like it?
Catherine Dutton (05:45):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (05:46):
It was hard at first, but I adapted pretty
quickly to it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:49):
So you have a lot of freedom.
Do you have a lot of freedom inwhat you create and what you
make?
Lucas Trahan (05:54):
Oh, I can make anything I want as long as it is
good.
It makes sense.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:59):
That's so cool.
Lucas Trahan (06:00):
It's hard to explain that.
Yes, we have a, there'sdefinitely a style and a voice
that ever, um, that is.
Chef Duffy's, but ultimately itis mostly my menu at this point.
He's got a few things that heintroduces that, um, he wants on
(06:21):
there, and it's his restaurant.
Obviously, they're gonna bethere.
But truly it's after workingwith him for so long, um, the
things that I make already inthat, that voice.
Um, and it excites me becausethere are some things I don't
do.
Because it's like, I know thatthat's not, I guess I would say
(06:45):
like, yeah, a chef is creativeand all that kind of stuff, but
honestly too, like when you'rein the role of a chef to
cuisine, your job is to kind ofbe the, I almost say like the
prophet or the evangelist,right?
You're the mouthpiece, right?
You have to take the message, ifyou will, and then translate it.
So that it makes sense.
(07:06):
It carries through.
It's, it's, it's true to whatthe source material is.
And so I guess in that sense,there are some confines to what
I make.
But the way that he and Iapproach things and what we
think is good and bad and whatwe enjoy and don't enjoy align
in a lot of places.
So I don't even really want tomake the things that he thinks
(07:28):
are dumb, You know what I mean?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:31):
Yeah, that
Lucas Trahan (07:32):
We have a very, we have a very similar, uh, I, I
would say palette and profile.
Catherine Dutton (07:37):
okay.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:37):
That makes sense.
That's why you work welltogether.
Yeah.
So where do you start like to,in creating a new dish, what's
the inspiration?
Does it start with theingredients that are available?
Does it start somewhere else?
Lucas Trahan (07:51):
I wish that was a clean answer.
Um, it comes from anything,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (07:56):
I.
Lucas Trahan (07:56):
it really does.
It stems from anywhere.
Sometimes.
It is an ingredient and you'relike, man, I just wanna work
with mangoes this summer.
I'm gonna do something withmangoes.
I don't know what, but that'swhat I want.
Sometimes it's a combination oftwo things and you're like, man,
it's this and that, and they goreally well together and I wanna
carry that.
Sometimes it's a thought, or amemory trying to.
(08:22):
Pay homage to something youexperienced and you want to
elevate it, and not be so tonguein cheek, right.
I'm not the kind of personwho're gonna be like, well this
is mom's mac and cheese, youknow, but I'll, if I approach a
dish or course, or even anexperience, is something more
the lines of like, how can Icapture the essence, the idea,
(08:42):
the concept of mom's mac andcheese and create it in a way
that isn't about meat.
So I want other people toexperience the same thing that I
did.
The safety, the deliciousness,the textures, everything that
goes around it without beinglike, this is my mom's mac and
cheese.
Because when it comes to art forme, one thing that I don't like
(09:06):
is when an artist puts too muchof themselves into the product.
Catherine Dutton (09:10):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (09:11):
Which sounds silly because to me, like.
There's nothing more transparentthan art, right?
You can't, art is nothing butthe artist, but it's like, how
do I say it?
It's, it's also art is only artif the viewer can perceive it to
have a deeper meaning.
Catherine Dutton (09:32):
Mm.
Lucas Trahan (09:35):
like paintings for instance, right?
If an artist makes a paintingand then they tell you, this is
what it means and this is theonly meaning that it has and
this is what you're supposed tofeel.
Catherine Dutton (09:44):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (09:44):
It's not, not art, right, but it really limits the
scope of what that art iscapable of accomplishing.
And so in that sense, if, yeah,in that sense, if I have a very,
very personal connection tosomething.
I'm not gonna make thatconnection known.
It'll serve as deep inspiration.
If someone wants to ask, I'llgladly explain the root of it.
Catherine Dutton (10:08):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (10:08):
that's for me, right?
That's my experience with it.
Um, and it doesn't need to bepushed down anyone's throat.
It's for someone to engage withand come to their own
conclusions.
And that's really to me, whatart is about.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:21):
Do you get a lot of feedback on the things
that you prepare?
Lucas Trahan (10:24):
Yeah, we actually do a lot of kitchen tours and so
people come back and, it's funto watch them because, you know,
the way the restaurant operates,it's, it's very much, I don't
wanna say separated, like the,the, the kitchen is the
heartbeat of the restaurant.
Back at Grace, it used to be, Iused to call it a fishbowl,
(10:44):
because the dining room wasorganized, so.
There were rows of chairs allkind of angled 45 degrees at the
table so that you were lookingdirectly at this giant bright,
open glass kitchen.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:57):
Ah.
Lucas Trahan (10:57):
Right?
And the lights in the diningroom were lower and the kitchen
glowed.
And it was like, it wasbeautiful, but it was like you
came here, so you watched thekitchen ever, I believe is a
perfect blend between the twowhere you.
You hear the kitchen, right?
We all call in you.
(11:18):
There's a, there's a whole lotof like ethos behind the
restaurant and how we operateand rules and standards and like
the acting that we play.
Like when, when someone, when aticket's ordered in, right?
The expediter calls like orderin two and everyone calls back
together like two.
That way it's like all of asudden there's like 10 voices
all at once saying the exactsame thing at the exact same
pitch, and you can't hear itsuper clearly in the dining
(11:41):
room.
We have, again, a lot of thingsthat make it very plush and
comfortable, but you know thatsomething's going on back there
and you know that it has to begoing on and it has to be going
on well, because things keepcoming up and rapid beautifully
time per session with meticulousdesign and, and, and intention.
And when people get back there,they're always surprised and
(12:04):
blown away.
Um.
There's always like a wow, youknow?
And then you see them and theystart to like, see the
ingredients that they recognizeand like, oh, that's what that
is, or, oh, that's how they dothat, or, oh, wow.
You know?
And it is, it's very rewarding.
I like it mostly too for thecooks.
They get to get feedback, andthen I encourage like the client
to engage with the cook, becauseI mean, like those are, I have
(12:25):
the easiest job.
I got the easiest job there.
I walk around and I complain,and that's it.
Like that's.
my job at the end of the day.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:34):
That's so great, but I'll bet the
atmosphere in the kitchen reallyimpacts your creativity and
influences.
Because you, I mean, you see alot of movies and TV shows and
it gets kind of ugly sometimes,and that would, that kind of
negative atmosphere would kindof beat you down after a while.
Lucas Trahan (12:51):
I believe in, um, like, honestly like respect and
positivity and, uh.
And when I, when I came into theCDC role, I really did approach
it, from like a gentle parentingperspective, right?
Where it's like, Hey, it's okay.
Mistakes happen, we'll get'emnext time, this, that, and the
other round.
But then there was a, a dipinconsistency in quality.
(13:15):
And, um, I think that thatapproach is the way, and it's
the way that I would love tocarry it.
That puts the onus on eachindividual to have, integrity
and standards that meet orexceed my own.
(13:36):
I think that that's all well andgood, but also in the same
mentality, like if you'reworking with me or you're
working at this level in anycapacity, because, you know, all
high-end Michelin restaurantscarry the same weight and
intensity.
Like you're choosing to engagein a world where everything
matters and mistakes are notallowed.
(13:57):
Not only from a, you know, we'rehunting for that third star
mentality, right?
It has to be perfect, but alsofrom, I mean, people come in and
they'll spend rent and ondinner, you know, like it, you
walk out of ever spending wellover a thousand dollars and it
is.
To me, it is beyond rude to theguest, to not afford them
(14:23):
excellence and perfection, atleast within the confines of
what a human is capable of.
And, so, you know, I think I, Iapproach it from a very coaching
mentality, but at the same timetoo, I need them to understand
that this has been a 17 yearlong journey for me.
And right now where we'resitting, we're very close.
When they just don't feel likedoing it right because it, it
(14:45):
is, it's negligence.
Then I do have to let, like Itake it personally, right?
I've bled for this, I've workedfor this, I've been through
everything for this.
And if they want to be great,they have to hold themselves to
a higher standard on their own.
And if they're not going to,then somebody has to.
Which again, it's anotherbenefit of my childhood and
being with my dad, and the wayhe was.
(15:07):
I don't want people to live inthat world.
But I think it's important toengage with it.
Caring is cool and dedicatingyourself to something is not
embarrassing, you know?
Of course I'm the boss.
I know they talk behind my backand they say things right,
because that's, that's, that'swhat it is, right?
It's important.
Like
Catherine Dutton (15:25):
the nature of being the boss, like, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (15:27):
I'm the bad guy.
Always will be.
And that's fine.
I have a wonderful partner athome that takes, you know, she
loves me and she.
I don't lose any sleep at night.
If a cook thinks I'm an asshole,I don't care.
Um, because the one thing that Iwould care about is if they were
like, he's a fraud.
(15:47):
he's a hack.
He's a hypocrite.
He doesn't hold himself to thesame standards that he holds us
to.
He is a liar.
He's in it for the show.
It's all fake and pretend thatis what would, that's what would
keep me up at night is thatintegrity.
And so, yeah, I do.
Sometimes I raise my voice, Iget angry, because, you know,
(16:09):
maybe the same mistake hashappened five times and it's
like, figure it out at somepoint.
Like you have to be like, do youwant to be here or not?
And for me, the creative side, alot of it stems from this just
unrelenting passion where it'slike three stars or die.
(16:29):
Like it's, there is no otheroption.
There is no plan B.
Catherine Dutton (16:33):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (16:35):
I mean, there is secretly, right?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (16:36):
You wanna share that with us?
The secret.
Lucas Trahan (16:39):
oh, the secret to plan B is you, you have to, in
my opinion, at least in acreative role that is, like
leadership driven, where youhave a team that has to execute,
you have to let people fail, andyou have to consciously let it
go wrong.
You can't.
Helicopter.
You can't follow them all day.
You can't just carry everything.
(16:59):
You have to let them fail.
You have to let them know theyfail.
You have to really push them tofix it themselves, but you
already have to have thesolution ready so that once they
exhaust their attempt, we stillcan't afford failure.
Right.
So it's not allowed, but youhave to let it happen.
(17:22):
That's really like my secret,I've found, and sometimes it
works, most of the time itworks, but, it demands a lot out
of leadership, I do think thatthat's what creates better
employees, better cooks andinspires them to know that
mistakes happen.
And it's more about the beingsolution oriented, right?
Like.
Catherine Dutton (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (17:42):
I see the sauce is like, I get it.
I know.
Like I, I'm aware something'swrong.
So what are we gonna do?
Like it has happened.
It has already happened.
Whether it was on purpose,whether it was an accident, it
doesn't matter.
To me.
That's really, it doesn'tmatter.
Let's look at what it is.
It's wrong.
So how are we gonna fix it?
Is it adjustable?
Can we remedy the situation?
Or instead of wasting timepanicking, do we just throw it
(18:05):
out?
Start over.
Whatever it is, let's make adecision.
Let's be confident in thatdecision and let's move forward
together.
Catherine Dutton (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (18:14):
So yeah, tensions get high, but at the end of the
day, I hope that I create anenvironment where like, I am
upset because I believe in youand you're letting me and
yourself down is what
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:28):
That's
Lucas Trahan (18:29):
I try to bring.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:30):
Yeah.
So when you get home, do youcook?
Lucas Trahan (18:33):
I meal prep on the weekends.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:35):
All right.
Lucas Trahan (18:35):
Recently I got into it.
My partner, she's helped mereally kind of reevaluate my
health and what I do in life andmy own diet at home because, I
don't like cooking at home.
It's, you know, burnout is real.
And the last thing I wanna doafter a long day is come home
and do more of it.
But, she's really helped me alot, on the weekends.
And I'll do a lot of mealprepping and we'll just plan out
a couple meals for the week.
(18:57):
Do it so that there's just,either it's just warming
something up or just a finishingthing at the end of the night so
we can eat a fresh, healthymeal.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:05):
That's
Catherine Dutton (19:05):
That makes sense.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:07):
That's good.
So what happens when you run outof ideas like you need to be
constantly coming up with newmenu items or new ideas and new
things.
What do you do when, when youburn out or when you run dry?
Lucas Trahan (19:20):
how do I say this?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:21):
Do you not burn
Lucas Trahan (19:22):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
There's, there's some timeswhere I don't have any ideas.
Things are hard.
I might be in like a, I be goingthrough a state of depression, I
might be exhausted,understaffed, life's getting in
the way, things like that.
But then, I don't know, there'sthis other side to it where it's
(19:45):
like nobody cares.
Like nobody cares about yourproblems.
At the end of the day, and Ibranded and sold myself as this
person that is capable, and so Idon't get to not be capable.
So whenever that does happen,you just, I don't know, you
(20:07):
throw shit at the wall until itsticks.
You just keep trying.
Keep going, keep pushing.
Try something new.
Just do something, anything.
Just keep moving.
And eventually in one moment,you'll find one thing that
you'll latch onto and be like,actually, I can do something
with this.
And then sometimes that's allyou need, especially when I'm in
a creative block like that.
I just need one, just one littleidea, one little victory in that
(20:28):
moment.
And I'm like, oh, there it is.
Now I see it.
And even sometimes I'm workingon a dish.
And I'm stuck on it.
I'm like, it's missingsomething.
I just don't know what it is,but I'm not happy.
There's been multiple timeswhere it's like, sometimes
you'll just wake up at like fourin the morning and in the middle
of the night and I'll, I'llshake my partner awake and I'll
(20:48):
just be like, I'm sorry, but Ineed to tell you this right now
before it disappears into Ether.
it's like you just wake up andyou're like, oh, I've got it.
That's it.
That's it.
I'm gonna completely throweverything out and do this
instead.
I figured it out.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:04):
To hear you say that because that's kind of
how I create.
I often wake up out of a deepsleep with like, oh, you know,
like in my, in my brain, I'mcalculating dimensions for a
quilt or, or something, youknow?
Yeah.
And I'll jump out of bed and runand get a sketchbook and just
like, I gotta get this downbecause it'll be gone in the
morning.
Lucas Trahan (21:23):
exactly.
There's something that's soimportant about that.
I think that, again, kinda likewhat you mentioned about like
restaurants and movies and likehow they portray the intensity
and the negativity and all thatkind of stuff.
I think that's something aboutthe creative life as well.
You watch movies about artistsand stuff and there's this
beautiful montage of them likepondering and painting and
(21:44):
scratching out you know what Imean?
As if it's some organic linearjourney.
Sometimes you have the idea andit's just there.
Every bit of it, every piece ofit falls into place perfectly.
And sometimes you're looking ata bunch of puzzle pieces that
don't fit and you know, thatdon't fit, but they have to
because you can see it.
You just don't know how itworks.
(22:05):
And I think that there'ssomething that there is to be
said about that, that like youhave to capitalize on that.
There is some insanity increation and you have to like
embrace it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:16):
There's our quote right there.
There's some insanity andcreation.
Catherine Dutton (22:19):
I like that very
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:21):
I like that a lot.
Yeah.
Catherine Dutton (22:23):
Can you walk us through what it looks like
for you to, as you're developinga menu or a dish, how do you
approach that?
Lucas Trahan (22:30):
So I think at this point in my career, I do have a
formula, that I really adhereto.
Something I actually, I'velearned from, chef Duffy.
'Cause it is a great, I wouldsay like base, right?
Pick three flavors you wannawork with
Catherine Dutton (22:44):
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (22:45):
and then go from there.
Because I think one of thebiggest enemies of creatives is
creativity.
Catherine Dutton (22:57):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (22:58):
because you can do whatever you want.
There are no rules, right?
We write the rules.
And the ability to, right?
Everyone says, think outside thebox.
Think outside the box.
And I think that that's,important for young people to
hear that, to understand thatlike you do, like don't think,
(23:21):
don't, don't conform, right?
Like, give yourself the freedomto ask why.
Question things, challenge thenorms, all that kind of stuff.
But as I've progressed and as I,there's an expectation for the
product that I deliver, again,you don't get the luxury to be
like, oh, that one didn't reallypan out.
Oh, well, you know, um, you haveto have a formula.
(23:45):
Yeah, exactly right.
Like especially, you know, whenyou're working with an expensive
product.
Catherine Dutton (23:51):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (23:52):
Right.
Like at least with food in away, it's a little bit more, uh,
forgiving because you need tonsof that product ad nauseum to
have a restaurant anyways.
But, you know, I, I, I liken itto like a sculptor, right?
That big old hunk of marble, youdon't get to mess up.
(24:13):
You know, like if you're workingon it and then you accidentally
break the finger off at the veryend, like that's.
Yikes, man.
Catherine Dutton (24:21):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (24:24):
you know, um, I think as an artist we all need
to understand those sameconcepts and respect the
ingredients that we're workingwith.
And no matter how cheap orexpensive they are, wasting is
not a luxury that we can everafford.
I guess another, another linethat like I have learned over
the years is that like the markof mastery is restraint.
People who are great atsomething do it with less.
(24:48):
And so it's not so much thinkingoutside of the box, but it's
creating the own box that youwant to exist in.
And you need to provide confinesfor your creativity.
Otherwise you'll never finish aproduct and.
You'll have a thousand prettycool, almost done ideas nothing
(25:13):
to show for it.
you have to like really giveyourself a box.
You have to work inside of yourown box, because otherwise it is
in infinity is a veryintimidating thing.
I don't know if anyone like sitsdown and tries to like think
about what that concept is, butit is obviously so impossibly
large that you can't even beginto.
(25:34):
Approach it.
And that's really whatcreativity is, right?
There's no confines there.
You can do whatever you want.
So you have to make a box foryourself to operate in,
otherwise you simply will justkeep going.
Right?
So that's really the, the, the,the key is having my formulas
like the three ingredients.
And then once you start messingaround with the idea, I have a,
(25:59):
like, I guess I would say like abackground rubric.
Right.
What's, what's the mouth feel?
What's the texture?
What's the temperature?
What's the intended purpose?
Where does it sit in a menu?
What am I trying to accomplishwith this?
And is it good, really?
And those are basically likethe, the criteria that, like I
look at it by, because there'sno definition of form when it
(26:22):
comes to Michelin.
I serve things on pieces ofdriftwood and I serve things on
China.
There's finger food, there'ssteak, you know, there's soup.
There's experience moments,right?
Where it's like this is abubbling thing that's in front
of you that you have to engagewith.
There is the tactile moment oflike, how does the guest engage
(26:46):
with this?
How does the silverware feel intheir hands?
What does the Civil War soundlike on that certain piece of
China?
How.
How do we engage with that?
How is that gonna be when I'vehealth people sitting around'em
are all doing the same thing?
Is that annoying?
Eh, that kind of grates me alittle bit.
Maybe we don't do that.
Maybe it's a different vesselthat we need to use.
How does it feel in the hand?
Is it, are you, is it intendedto be picked up?
Is it intended to be viewed?
(27:07):
It's really like little bylittle building that box that
I'm gonna work inside of, inorder to have a completed idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:17):
So that's your structure.
Lucas Trahan (27:19):
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:19):
You need some structure to work with them.
Lucas Trahan (27:23):
yeah.
That's a really good way toexplain everything I said in one
word.
That's a better way to do it.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:27):
No, I like your explanation.
No, your explanation was great.
I appreciate that.
Catherine Dutton (27:32):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:33):
How do you know.
When a dish is, is perfected, isready, is finished, do you, how
do you know when to stop whenyou meet?
All those criteria, I guess.
Lucas Trahan (27:47):
That's been the hardest one.
Honestly.
That's the hardest one.
But I need to look at it from asense of like, yeah, this has
checked all those boxes.
I could add more, but at whatpoint is that just useless
fluff, like, diminishingreturns.
And then, you know, sometimesit's like I have a couple really
good ideas and I'm like, well,why don't I just save those
(28:09):
ideas for another thing?
Like what I'm not trying tolike.
Waste all my in one go.
Right?
I also have to have therealistic side of it to be like,
well, we need some longevityhere.
You know, like Apple, you know,whatever big companies, you
gotta respect'em, right?
They only release minuteupgrades each time.
(28:30):
If they released their latestversion of everything every
year, we wouldn't have a phoneevery year to sell.
So they have to have a productto sell.
So they have to innovate, butthen only release some of that
innovation at a time becausethey need to.
Maintain the illusion that theyare never not coming up with
something new, you know?
Catherine Dutton (28:48):
I like that idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:49):
Makes sense.
Catherine Dutton (28:51):
Can you tell us about a dish that has really
excited you?
Lucas Trahan (28:55):
I think the best way to describe that, it's not
so much recent, but it's thisidea of like, cooperative
creativity.
Catherine Dutton (29:03):
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (29:03):
When I first took over as a pastry chef at ever, I
wanted to do beets and cheesefor a dessert course.
Um, and this is, this is alljust a great lesson for me,
right.
But, uh, it really leads intoeverything I was just kind of
saying, but.
I had all these things and allthese ingredients, and then I
ended up make, like, we ended upmaking cream cheese, ice cream.
(29:24):
And I was like, how do I justget these things together?
And um, it was a morning and Deyand I were working together and
he just, like, literally it was,it was we, I like put ice cream
in the bowl and I tried to dustit and everything.
I was like, I don't because Ibeep powder.
I was like, I don't know how tomake this look good.
And he was like, and then hejust kinda looked at me and he
was like, well, you get todecide what's good, right?
He's like, if you don't think itlooks good, then like, make it
(29:45):
look good.
Like, what?
How do you, what do you want?
And I was like, oh, damn.
It's that easy, isn't it?
Like, it's really that easy.
And then he just took a spoonand smashed it instead.
And all of a sudden it wasbeautiful.
And I was like, okay, actually Ihate you again.
I was like, how did you justeffortlessly do that?
But you know, that's why we seekto, work under talented people
because we learned from them.
(30:06):
But, I think that one reallysticks out to me, because it
was, when I, when I really dothink about like things that
made'em really proud of thatone.
Was it, it was literally, it wasbee powder and cream cheese, ice
cream.
That's it.
And it's one of the most divinethings I've ever had ever.
It's so good.
Catherine Dutton (30:25):
How did you come up with that idea of like
beets and cream cheese together?
Lucas Trahan (30:29):
I mean, I don't know.
Uh, it's, it's, I guess I can,I'll also in like my creative
process, right?
Like, I like to approach food,from a very approachable way.
I never wanna be one of thosechefs that makes weird food for
the sake of it, right?
I want it to be relatable.
I want it to be approachable.
I want it to be.
Challenging, thought provoking,maybe potentially generate
(30:53):
discourse, but not necessarilylike, challenge people in their
definition of what food is.
You know, there's some of theserestaurants out there where
they're like rabbit brains andfried dragonflies and, and like,
why?
You know, it's one thing if it'slike, you know, a cultural,
(31:13):
staple and that's your historyand background and you wanna
showcase that.
Like in Latin cuisine, you know,the use of insects, crickets,
scorpions, things like that.
At least it has like a culturalimplication.
And then you're like, well, Imean this has been a delicacy
for thousands of years, right?
And then you go, you look atother chefs that are like, no,
I'm gonna serve live cuttlefishfor no reason other than I think
(31:33):
it's weird, you know, and you'relike, that's stupid.
That's really dumb.
Um, but I want it to beapproachable.
So I really stick to simplecommon flavors.
And so in that space of, youknow, beets and cheese, like, I
don't know if, if you have theopportunity, but you should go
to any, I would say hipsterrestaurant in like the
(31:56):
springtime and everyone willhave a beet and barta salad,
beets, barta and mint done.
Right?
And so you start to then.
know the rules of engagement.
So now you can break the rulesand you say, okay, beets, and
then what?
Something that's fatty andcreamy and UNC anxious, okay, in
this case it's burrata, but whatelse fits that role, you know,
(32:19):
in the world of cheese?
Well, anything really.
So then you start to break itdown and you start to say, okay,
so beets and cheese, well, howdo I, you know?
And then it just turns into,well, cream cheese, ice cream,
lemon, vanilla beets have a lotof natural sugar in them.
Catherine Dutton (32:34):
Mm.
Lucas Trahan (32:34):
There's a savoriness there, there's a
complexity of flavor, thingslike that.
Catherine Dutton (32:40):
That's really cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:42):
Do you feel like your process is still
evolving or have you locked inand this is how you're gonna
create for the rest of yourlife?
Lucas Trahan (32:51):
it is definitely still evolving.
I learn new things about what Ithink, and I grow in my opinions
of things every single day,every single.
Thing that I create, I learnsomething new.
And then sometimes I also liketo revisit past ideas that I've
had because it's like, well, howcan I do that better knowing
(33:11):
what I know now?
Right?
How do I make this, I don'tknow, better might not be the
right word, but how do I makethis fit my current voice?
How do I make this true to mycurrent self?
Because this exists in the etheris something I've made, but like
I don't even agree with itanymore.
I don't believe in thatprinciple anymore.
So how do I make it relevant tocurrent me?
(33:31):
Um, no.
I will always be evolving andgrowing.
At least I hope.
I think the day that I looksomeone in the eyes and say that
I figured it out, um, I think isthe day that someone should call
me a liar personally, at least.
Catherine Dutton (33:47):
Has there been a specific moment that you can
think of that shifted for youhow you see creativity in food?
Lucas Trahan (33:54):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, yes.
Uh, when I was still in Dallas,I was working at a place called,
FT 33.
Catherine Dutton (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (34:09):
And, I tried this one thing, it was on the menu.
I just started, I was young, Iwas like 20, I think I was 20 at
the time.
And it was just chard, pini withlemon juice and the targa over
the top, which is like a cured,fish product.
And it, I don't know how itchanged, it changed everything
(34:34):
on how I viewed food because.
It was humble, right?
Like rapini is just, broccoli,right?
It's just a kind of broccoli andit was just cooked on open fire
on a grill and just some lemonjuice on it, and then a cured
fish product.
That's like, it's, it's aundesirable portion of the fish
(34:57):
at the end of the day that'scured and used and, and, you
know, a lot of, a lot of foodhas very humble origins.
For sustenance and need.
Right?
So I had this thing that it wasreally just humble.
It was simple, humble, um, itwasn't claiming to be anything
that it wasn't, and yet it wasdelicious and it was
(35:21):
life-changing.
And it hit me with this ideathat like, creativity is not.
That creative sometimes, youknow, sometimes it is, it's
humble.
You don't need expensive thingsto be good at something you
don't need.
(35:42):
I don't know.
It's, it's, it changed my lifein a lot of ways.
It taught me how to be a betterpartner.
As I've grown, I've appliedthose same concepts to a lot of
things in life.
You know, uh, you want a strong,solid foundation.
You want.
Trustworthiness.
You want a rock hard, you know,partner.
Well, it's not grand acts ofkindness and love, right?
Like, yeah, those are great.
Sure.
(36:02):
And they're memorable.
But it's, it's showing up daily.
It's the maintenance, it's thesmall acts here and there at
every single step that like,make something real.
And so it taught me like thisconcept of creativity is not
some magical mind blowing.
Aha moment, per se.
(36:24):
Right?
It was humble, it was practice,it was dedication.
It was, you know, like acreative is only as creative as
they know.
Catherine Dutton (36:34):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (36:36):
I might be a creative, but I can't draw.
I don't know how to draw.
I'm terrible at it.
I don't have the skill for it.
I never went to school for it.
I don't practice it, so I cannotever bring to life what I see in
my head.
I try.
But then again, I also don'tdedicate myself in practice, so
how could I be good at it?
Catherine Dutton (36:55):
Right.
Lucas Trahan (36:55):
And that's, that to me was what that rapini was.
It was like, this is thedefinition of humility and
knowing that like, it just, thisis what it takes.
This, to me, this is excellence.
This is perfection.
It's not over designed, it's notover complicated.
It's humble.
And it's just honest.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:16):
So.
Catherine Dutton (37:16):
sounds,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:17):
if Luke today could go back and talk to that
20-year-old newly minted chef,what, what would you tell him?
Lucas Trahan (37:24):
Luke is a shithead man.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:26):
mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (37:28):
Um.
I don't know.
I, I, I've been asked thatquestion like, you know, even
along the lines of like, whatwould you tell younger chefs?
Like what piece of advice wouldyou give?
You know, anyone.
And honestly, it's kind of like,just shut up and listen, you
know, probably like talk less.
But again, I got where I am bymaking gobs of mistakes, know?
(37:51):
Um.
I got where I am today.
Honestly, I find a lot of mydedication and fortitude and
courage and strength come from,a drug addiction in my past.
And they come from all theseplaces where, I wouldn't change
it.
I wouldn't go back and changeit.
I wouldn't tell young Luke like,Hey, don't go to that party.
You know, because who I am todaywould be not me.
Catherine Dutton (38:17):
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Trahan (38:19):
So it's hard.
I've always tried to find ananswer to that question and
like, I think, yeah, on thesurface, check your ego.
The sooner you throw that outthe door, the better you'll be.
But that has to be an organicchoice you make as an
individual.
Something in life has to humbleyou in whatever form it is, and
you have to realize that that'snot what it's about.
(38:40):
But that has to come on your ownterms a little bit.
So I don't know.
I'd probably just tell him somerandom interesting fact that
doesn't really apply toanything, but it's kind of vague
a little bit, you know, like
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:52):
Sounds
Catherine Dutton (38:53):
him guessing a little bit.
Lucas Trahan (38:54):
yeah.
You know, maybe like a Bob Rosstype thing, you know?
If you can relate somethingvague enough to a simple concept
one day, someone will have alight bulb moment about it, you
know?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:06):
Love
Catherine Dutton (39:06):
I love it.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:08):
That's great.
Catherine Dutton (39:09):
So I have a silly, bizarre question just to
kind of wrap us up today.
I have loved what you have saidabout creativity and about
thinking about it.
I like the idea of givingourselves parameters, but also
the beauty and the simplicity ofthings that we make.
Okay.
But my silly question is, ifcreativity had a flavor, what
(39:30):
would it taste like to you?
Lucas Trahan (39:32):
It would probably be very sour
Catherine Dutton (39:37):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (39:37):
and very astringent.
I don't think it would besomething that people would
enjoy to eat.
Catherine Dutton (39:47):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (39:48):
I think it would be an acquired taste,
Catherine Dutton (39:50):
Ah, I like that.
Okay.
Lucas Trahan (39:53):
you know?
You know what I mean?
Like, you know, you look, dad,how can you drink that?
It's scotch, it's disgusting,goes, oh, you wouldn't
understand, right?
Catherine Dutton (39:58):
Yeah.
Lucas Trahan (39:59):
that is how I see it.
It's something that it looks, itprobably looks really cool.
It's a really beautiful color.
You know?
It looks juicy.
But it doesn't taste good.
Catherine Dutton (40:12):
Hmm.
Lucas Trahan (40:13):
'cause I think to me, the reward of creativity is
the struggle.
Catherine Dutton (40:19):
Wow.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:22):
That's pretty cool.
Catherine Dutton (40:23):
That's pretty cool.
Well, I think that's a beautifulplace for us to end our
conversation today actually.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:31):
It's been great.
Catherine Dutton (40:32):
I really appreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today
Lucas Trahan (40:35):
Oh, I am thrilled and honored and thank you for
reaching out.
And Alan, thank you too forthinking about me.
It's a beautiful full circlemoment to get to talk to you in
this capacity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:46):
we didn't really get into this, but uh,
yeah, Luke's been part of mylife since he was about 10 years
old.
So it, it's great to see you andI love seeing your success and
seeing pictures of yourcreations online and just, just
hearing about it.
It's wonderful.
Lucas Trahan (41:02):
Well, of course.
Hopefully I can, hopefully weget, you know, more growth in
the future and I only getbetter, but we'll see.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:09):
Feel free to drop by my house and cook for me
anytime you're in town.
Lucas Trahan (41:13):
All right.
Catherine Dutton (41:14):
Well, thank you so
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:15):
you.
Lucas Trahan (41:16):
thank you so much.
It was an honor.
Appreciate it.
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