December 1, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of Crime Survivors Speak, Aswad Thomas sits down with restorative justice leader Ghani Songster, who spent 30 years in prison after being sentenced to life without parole as a teenager and has since become one of the nation’s most visionary voices on healing and accountability. Ghani reflects on why hope is not a luxury but a necessity, and how restorative justice creates what our current system cannot: honest dialogue, shared humanity, and pathways to real reconciliation. He describes the transformation that becomes possible when survivors, responsible parties, and communities are finally brought together to heal—not separated by a courtroom. Ghani also shares powerful stories from the circle processes he facilitates, including moments when people on both sides of harm experience mutual understanding for the first time. This conversation invites listeners to imagine a justice system rooted in connection, dignity, and the belief that transformation is possible for all of us.
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(00:01):
Welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Directorof Crime Survivors Speak.
We are over 200,000 crime victims andsurvivors from across the country.
Please subscribe to stay up to date onthe latest episodes of the Crime Survivor
Speak podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,Spotify, and other streaming services.
(00:25):
I'm back today with one ofmy favorite human beings.
I'll be talking with Ghani Songster, whois a nationally recognized restorative
justice leader and advocate forhealing centered approaches to safety.
After being sentenced to life withoutparole as a teenager and spending
(00:45):
30 years incarcerated, Ghani hasemerged as a powerful voice for
transformation, accountability,healing and second chances.
Today, Ghani serves as theTransformative Healing and Restorative
Justice Manager at The Campaignfor the Fair Sentencing of Youth.
(01:07):
Ghani really works to replace systems of
punishment with models of restorationthat uplift both survivors and
those who have caused harm.
Ghani, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, Aswad.
It's great to be with you again.
And just to engage you inconversation one more time.
We always take some deep qualitative divesand it's a blessing to have an opportunity
(01:30):
to do that, especially in this way.
Your story and your work is one of truetransformation, from being sentenced
to life without parole as a teenagerto now becoming a national voice
for justice reform, can you take usback to that journey and share what
(01:51):
sparked your shift towards healing.
First of all, thank you for youracknowledgement and your embrace.
That's what turnstransformation into redemption.
You can change behind the walls.
You know, after you've done a harm.
You can better yourself.
But if it's not accepted, if it'snot believed by the community,
(02:14):
by your human family, then it'sjust your personal transformation.
But when it's believed, when it'saccepted, when your transformation
is embraced by your fellowhumans and by your community.
That's when you're redeemed, that's whenthe transformation becomes redemption.
For me, hearing you recognizingmy capacity to transform, hearing
you accept that, for me that'sredemption and I really appreciate
(02:36):
you and the community afford me that.
My transformation didn't happen overnight,and everybody's journey is different.
Most of the people I've met behind thewalls that have changed and regained
their humanity and moral rectitude.
It didn't happen overnight.
Certainly not for me when I went intoprison at the age of 15, in 1987,
(03:00):
for my role in an irreparable andirreversible act of violence that
happened as I was a runaway, 250 milesaway from my home in Brooklyn, in the
company of a gang in Philadelphia.
When I entered the prison doors,even with a sentence of life without
(03:22):
parole, or death by incarceration.
I didn't really understand what that was.
I didn't fully appreciate thegravity, not just of what I had
done, but what had happened to me.
It would take years well into myincarceration for me to realize
what I was facing, and reallyappreciate the permanence of
(03:46):
the blood that was on my hands.
It was a harm that I would neverbe able to fix no matter what.
It would take years for meto come to terms with that.
On my first visit that I had with mymother when she came to visit me and
I was in the Youth Study Center, shebrought three books for me to read.
(04:08):
She brought the autobiography ofMalcolm X, the autobiography of Nelson
Mandela, and a book entitled Kaffir Boyby Mark Mathabane, which was a story
situated in Apartheid South Africa.
Even though she brought those books, andthose books would wet my appetite for more
knowledge and I would gorge my appetite onanything I could get my hands on to read.
(04:31):
It still took a long time for meto fully internalize what I was
reading and fully come to termswith the harm that I had caused.
I had developed an analysis.
about violence.
I had developed a geopolitical analysisabout violence and I abhorred what
I'd learned, was the violence thatwas consuming my communities and the
(04:54):
world, and, was very critical of it.
But I'd still not come to terms withthe fact that I was an actor in the
narrative of violence in my community.
And so it didn't take until I started torealize that there was a hypocrisy in me.
(05:17):
I started to feel like a hypocrite whenI would go outside my cell and I would
educate other young brothers, you know,this is years after being in prison.
Now I'm like educating other youngbrothers sharing things to read and
talking to them about their role in thecommunity, talking to them about war in
(05:37):
the world, and I would go back into mycell and feel like a split personality,
my self accusing spirit was very brutal.
The more conscious I became, the moreI abhorred violence, the more and
the older I got and the more mature Ibecame, the less at peace I was with
(05:58):
myself, because I felt like a fraud.
It was that feeling that propelled me tocome to terms with my own contributions
to the harm taking place in the community.
Certainly the harm that I had caused.
I started reading about restorativejustice, and ways that people
(06:24):
and cultures around the world hadaddressed harms, ways that centered
community and centered relationships.
And centered accountability.
And it was the piece aboutaccountability, obligations to repairing
the harm after you've caused harm.
Those two, two principles right there.
Accountability and fulfilling one'sobligations to repairing harm.
(06:47):
It propelled me into deeper introspection.
It was then that I came to termswith, look, I cannot be real about
wanting to be an agent of changeuntil I was honest with myself.
I first had to be the change that Iwanted to see, not just in rhetoric, not
(07:11):
just in preaching to other young people.
I had to really internalize and accept,first and foremost that I played a
part in harm that I could never fullyrepair or repay the community for.
I couldn't bring back human life,but I could convict myself to
(07:31):
a life of trying to steer otherpeople from causing similar harms.
I couldn't get to that point untilI made that admission to myself.
And I came to the terms with myself.
That's when thetransformation really changed.
Until that happened,
it was just rhetoric brother.
Wow, man, so incredible.
The work that you had to do, along withmany others, inside those facilities.
(07:55):
As you were talking, I was just thinkingabout the justice system, have a role
in helping to rehabilitate people.
Many people don't know, not only amI a victim of gun violence, but my
oldest brother, he's actually servinglife without the possibility of parole.
He's been incarcerated for the past 24years, and I often talk with him, as well.
(08:16):
And he's always telling me howmuch work he's doing himself.
Right.
Or the other inmates are doingthemselves and not a lot of support
from the justice system to kind ofhelp with some of that rehabilitation.
He often talk about the relationshipsthat he's built over the years.
How that's helped him in hisown healing journey, also helped
his fellow brothers as well.
So I'm curious during your 30 yearsof incarceration, as you talked
(08:40):
about, not only within yourself, butwith your brothers, you've built a
community of accountability and healing.
I'm curious to hear from you, what role
did those relationships that you havewith your brothers or folks inside that
played a role in your transformation?
And what do those relationships teachus about the human capacity for change?
(09:03):
Yeah.
First, let me just say this, Aswad.
Thank you for lifting up the part aboutthe system, not really facilitating any
avenues for true transformation, alsotalking about your own brother and the
struggles he's experienced, and how he hasto exercise his own agency to transform
(09:29):
and redeem himself, a lot of times againststrong countercurrent on the inside.
Just like myself, your brother hasnot become the person that he now.
More responsible and socially responsible,ecologically and environmentally
responsible in his decision making.
(09:49):
He hasn't become thatbecause of prison, but in
spite of prison.
You know what I mean?
because from the very first encounter wehave with the authorities with the system,
what are the first words we hear, brother?
The very first words when ourso-called rights are read to us is
anything you say can and will be used
(10:11):
against you.
And so automatically, we aredissuaded in no uncertain terms
from taking accountability.
We are dissuaded from doing one ofthe very first things that's vital to
healing and vital to accountability,and that is truth telling.
(10:31):
That is one of the core valuesand principles of restorative
justice, truth telling and healing.
There is no accountability withouttruth telling, and there is no
healing without accountability noneof this happens without first truth
telling, and we are dissuaded fromtelling the truth by that threat.
Anything you say can andwill be used against you.
(10:52):
As a 15-year-old, could you imaginewhat those words, how they land on me?
and then, the unwritten street codes
you never
tell on yourself.
And so we're sandwichedbetween those two things.
And then you meet your lawyer andyour lawyer tells you, no, I got this.
Be quiet.
And you watch them put on the bestperformance for you in court and mind you,
(11:13):
I know a lot of people who are innocent.
There are really people who are innocent,who shouldn't even be in prison.
I don't believe prison is for anyone, butI'm not speaking as an innocent person.
I'm speaking as a responsible youth.
However, those avenues for realtransformation, which could begin
right after the harm with your,first encounter of the system, those
(11:34):
avenues are not only not facilitated,they are obstructed by the system.
And so when we get upstate, let's saywe lose the case, and we get upstate
with this sentence, then we're told, wespend our time in the law library looking
for avenues to get back in and win.
Not based on any realization ofthe role that we played in harm,
(11:55):
but we're looking for loopholes.
We're looking to try to getback in on a technicality.
And so we're not really encouragedto do any self-exploration that
leads to real transformation.
Everything is about expediency,is tactical, is strategic, and
then we begin to lie to ourselves.
And the lie becomes the truth.
And not everybody is effective, somepeople end up with 30, 40, 50 years
(12:17):
in prison, old and still have missedthe important self-work needed to
really embrace accountability andtheir obligation to repairing harm.
To the role that the community webuild behind the walls plays in our
transformation, it definitely shows thatthe true measure of transformation is
how as a social creature you learn howto be with other humans, how we learn to
(12:39):
support each other and hold each other up.
Because a lot of us are nursingvarious traumas even before we enter
the walls, we would not dare go see apsychologist, in prison, because they
were not, working in our best interests.
They might impede our ability to gain somerelief later on, whether it's with the
parole board, if that opportunity exists.
(13:01):
Or with the Board of Pardons.
So we go many years without anyreal professional support, to help
us address any of these traumasor issues that led to our harm.
And so the only ones we haveto turn to behind the walls
is each other.
And we are not trained therapists.
We hold each other up in the weight pits.
(13:21):
We hold each other up and counseleach other in the chow halls, library.
We pray next to each other,in each other's cells.
We are the ones holding each other up.
And so we are a part of each other'stransformation in there, even though
we're not trained professionals.
And so the communities we buildbehind the walls, although it's
some unfortunate circumstancesthat led us to form community.
(13:45):
It's those communities, between peoplewho've caused harm, when we are able
to find a modicum of humanity inourself and cultivate it and nourish
it and do the same for each other.
Those are the relationshipsbehind the walls.
They do exist betweenpeople who cause harm.
We are the ones who help eachother find our way back, to
our humanity, behind the walls.
(14:07):
I could listen to you talk all day.
Just so insightful and, your passionand also the importance of having your
voice, in leadership in this work, right?
To help us think about what adifferent type of system looks like
as it relates to justice and safety.
And you said, before that justiceis not the same as punishment.
(14:29):
What does justice mean to you now, andhow has your understanding of it evolved
through your life and experiences?
Thank you for that, brother.
I appreciate you, putting theword evolved in there, because
it certainly has evolved.
For many of us, we've grown up with thedominant perspective on what justice is.
(14:54):
Justice is an eye for an eye.
We grew up with that, readingour comic books, looking at
movies and cops and robbers.
Justice is something that onlyhappens after a harm is done.
Sometimes we carry out that perspectiveof justice in a very warped way
in the streets amongst each other.
(15:15):
Sometimes when we exact vengeance onsomeone in the community, it's with
this idea that we are doing justice.
It's a very troubling concept,that infects our thinking and
the way we perceive the world.
Over time, I started to realize thatjustice is not even this responsive thing
(15:38):
that only happens after a harm is done.
It's certainly not this thing that'shoarded up in some edifice somewhere,
like an item on a shelf that we go to,when we trespass against each other
in order to have someone ration outto us, when we do each other wrong.
Justice also comes at the front end.
(16:00):
My favorite definition Dr. CornellWest's definition of justice is
what love looks like in public.
Justice is how we meet each other,greet each other, and treat each other.
It's not this thing thathappens when it's too late.
You know what I mean?
It's about what kind of culture wecreate that reduces the likelihood
(16:21):
or tendency to resort to violenceor to have violent inclinations.
As you and I are talking, someoneis standing in the face of
some kind of approaching harm.
Somebody probably was just harmed, right?
Somebody is strapping up right nowand moving towards a certain target.
(16:46):
Someone just did it andthey're cleaning up the scene.
Mm.
We don't know what it is, butI guarantee you, you turn on
the news tonight, we'll see it.
Yep.
And so the question is, is our conceptof justice availing those people, those
(17:06):
innocent people who are standing inthe wake of harm or who've been harmed?
And so we have to have adifferent concept of justice.
It can't be something that justcomes after when it's too late.
It has to be something that precedes harmand that changes the kind of culture that
our communities living in.
And it takes resources too, tocreate that kind of culture.
(17:29):
People's needs have to be met.
Young people's needs have to be met.
They have to be receiving theright kind of information and
the right kind of education.
It has to be what lovelooks like in public.
That concept of justice for me issomething that evolved over the years.
It has to center community,relationships, obligations.
(17:52):
these are the questions, that areasked normally by the current system
of so-called justice, the criminallegal system when harm has happened.
What laws were broken?
In a restorative justice or healingjustice or transformative justice,
the first question is who was harmed?
See one form of justice centers the law.
(18:13):
The law is the victim.
Another form of justicecenters human beings.
The next question the system might askis, what kind of punishment they deserve?
Restorative justice mightask, what are their needs?
Whose obligation is itto meet these needs?
The concept of justice I've grown intonow is a justice that serves the health
(18:37):
and wellbeing of the community, and gaugesits effectiveness by how well it serves
the health and wellbeing of the community.
Thank you.
As you have talked about, we have a systemthat claims to hold people accountable
for their actions, but we also know thattrue accountability, it requires courage.
(18:58):
It requires a willingness toacknowledge and heal from harm.
Today, your work focus onbridging that gap, right?
Between those who've caused harmand also those who've been harmed.
How do you approach thatdifficult, challenging work?
What have you learned about whatreal accountability looks like
(19:19):
for people who have caused harm?
Also, for those who've been harmed?
Thank you, Aswad.
Prior to my position now at theCampaign for the Fair Sentencing of
Youth, for three years, I was theprogram manager of Philadelphia's
first restorative justice diversionprogram for youth, Healing Futures.
That program entailed the districtattorney's office referring the
(19:43):
cases of young people to us whohad caused some type of harm.
And then we would reach out to theyoung person and see if they would
like to enroll, and then we would alsoreach out to the person harmed and
see if they would like to participate.
Then we would spend at least eight weeks,with weekly meetings, preparing both
(20:05):
parties to come together to face eachother in what we called a restorative
community conference, a very intimateprocess at which time the young person
would get to hear from the person harmedhow their actions impacted this person
and their life and their family's life.
And the young person would, probablybe accompanied by a caregiver.
(20:26):
They would hear how their actionsimpacted their family, community
members who were not directly impactedby the harm, but are invested in the
health and wellbeing of the community,especially the state of our children.
They would get to hear from thosecommunity members the indirect impact
of their harm, and then everyone wouldget to hear from this young person,
(20:47):
an accountability statement or anapology to the person harmed, to their
families, to the community at large.
And it wasn't as if, everyone isthere to ambush the young person
and just lay a bunch of guiltand blame on the young person.
Because the young person would also hearwhat hopes everyone had in him or her.
(21:08):
And then everyone wouldthen break bread together.
They would eat, and then they wouldcome back and they would huddle up
on what would be the restorativeplan for this young person, the
plan for this young person to repairthe harm and put things more right.
And that plan might last anywherefrom two months to seven months.
(21:29):
The plan would be governed by anoverarching theme called SMART.
It's an acronym that you'reprobably well familiar with.
It had to be specific, it hadto be measurable, it had to
be attainable, it had to berestorative or related to the harm.
And it had to be time bound.
It had to have a startdate and a finish date.
Once the young person finished theprogram, Then we would let the district
(21:51):
attorney's office know and no chargeswould be filed, no criminal record entered
that could haunt this child's abilityto get a job later on in life, a place
of residence or a college education.
We would have a community celebrationcelebrating both the responsible
youth and the community together.
With awards to both of them, withfood, with dance, not celebrating that
(22:17):
some young person got off softly forcommitting a harm, but celebrating the
community's agency to resolve its owntrespasses without handcuffs and cages.
Ludic justice, ludic, L-U-D-I-C, whichmeans cheerful or joyful, and it's a
concept that comes out of South Africa.
(22:39):
If you look up writings on ludicjustice, you'll learn about this concept
that's even a step beyond restorativejustice, where people on both sides
of harm can share joy together.
in a circle process after harm where aperson who caused the harm might give
an apology and the person who was harmedmight outwardly accept the apology.
(22:59):
We might not really be sure thathealing really has taken place, or even
that reconciliation has taken place.
But one clear indicator thatreconciliation has taken place
between these two spirits.
One clear indicator that healing hasbegun is when you can see a person who
(23:20):
caused harm and the person that theyharmed sharing joy, sharing a laugh.
That's why the communitycelebrations are important.
At the retreat we just did, brother,after all the sobering conversation,
and all the sharing about harm andabout accountability and causing
harm and admitting these thingsand telling truth to each other.
(23:42):
We did
karaoke brother.
We did karaoke and we partiedbecause that's the end game.
That's the beloved community.
That's the healed community.
That's the end game.
That's how we bring it all together.
And that's so important, forus as society, especially, here
in America, to look at otheralternatives to incarceration.
(24:03):
As you were sharing, I was thinkingabout my own experience of when I
was shot, two teenagers, they were18 and 19 years old at the time.
Something I continued to think abouttoday, the potential opportunity to
have a restorative justice type ofprocess and conversation with those
two young men to really help me heal,but also help them heal as well.
(24:25):
I'm curious, from all of the workthat you've been doing around
restorative justice, what have beenthe perspective of crime victims
who have went through that process?
Oh, thanks for asking that.
Healing Future is the program that Imentioned before that I used to work
with for three years before I joined TheCampaign for the Fair Sentencing of Youth.
(24:45):
They recently launched theirofficial report on the program.
The Stoneleigh Foundation had grantedsomeone a fellowship, Hanae Mason, to
write the official report And that reportwas just launched maybe three weeks ago.
In that report, you can read some of thetestimonies in addition to the statistics.
(25:07):
100% satisfaction rate among the persons
harmed.
It's incredible.
Organizations like Common Justice inBrooklyn, New York, had a 91% satisfaction
rate among persons harmed and someother restorative justice diversion
programs like in Alameda County and SanFrancisco, satisfaction rates in all
(25:31):
these different programs are in the 90percents, where persons harmed are more
satisfied with a restorative justiceapproach than a carceral approach.
Because with a restorative justiceapproach, it puts the harmed
party in the driver's seat.
(25:51):
It allows them to exercise theirown agency and to reclaim their
identity as a human being becausenothing robs the identity of a human
being more than an act of violence.
You know, it robs you ofyour sense of security.
It robs you of your sense of certainhood.
It robs you of your senseof belonging in a community.
(26:12):
After this, I imagine people questioningif this is really my community.
'Cause I can't even feel safein my own community, so it must
not really be my community.
A restorative justice process by allowinga person harmed to sit in the same circle
with the person who harmed them and facethem with courage, demystify them and face
them and speak their truth with courage.
(26:33):
And receive from this person the veryleast of what the person harmed is worth,
which is an apology, which is somethingthey would never get in the court
system, is tremendously, tremendouslyempowering for a person harmed, right?
And to have the person harmedthen also be a defining factor
(26:54):
of what repairing the harm thathappened to them is gonna look like.
Right.
That is incredibly beneficial.
That is incredibly empowering.
And this is something that neverhappens in the court process.
You know what the court process islike, brother, you go in the courtroom.
It's an adversarial process.
Everybody is separated.
The responsible party, and theirfamily and supporters are on one side,
(27:18):
the harmed party and their familyand supporters are on another side.
They can't even look at each other, sothey're not even allowed to make eye
contact and say anything to each otherand rediscover each other's humanity
or even speak their peace or theirtruth to each other in a civil way.
They're not even allowedto wave at each other.
The only interpretations of each otherthat they have is what they're told.
(27:41):
One side is told, look, thesepeople want you locked up forever.
They're angry at you.
The other side is these peoplejust want their loved one home.
They don't really care aboutwhat happened to your loved one.
Both could be the furthestthing from the truth.
And the only voices areheard in this arena that's
separated literally by offense.
So everyone is separated fromthe goings on about their lives,
(28:02):
about something that happened tothem or something that they did.
The only voices are heard is a defenseand a prosecutor arguing for and
against both sides and one sittingliterally at a higher altitude.
Judging everyone.
And the only time anybody is allowed tospeak is when they're called on, and then
they speak and only ask questions thatthey might not even really wanna be asked.
(28:27):
Might not even be the mostimportant questions to ask
to lead to real empowerment.
Questions are only asked that wouldlead to victory for either side.
And then everyone is dispensedwith, no one is checked up on later
to see how they're healing fromthe traumas of what's going on.
Meanwhile, violence and victimizationcontinues to rage on in our
communities, with this model right here.
(28:49):
In a restorative justice model,everyone sits in a circle.
They face each other in honestyand courage and civility.
They address each other,they speak to each other.
They listen.
The
guidelines are listen withthe heart and with respect.
Speak from the heart and with respect,honor the talking piece, meaning
honor the person who's speaking.
(29:10):
Honor confidentiality, meaningwhat's set here, stays here.
It's not for the streets.
This is not media news.
What's the alliteration we use?
Stories stay, lessons leave.
The details stay here, but the lessons,the wisdom, the principle, the values
that we extract from this experience,that's what we take with us and share
with the world and we remain present.
(29:32):
Those are the guidelines, and that's whatit takes to lead to real reconciliation,
lead to real healing, to lead to realagency, lead to real accountability and,
I'm telling you, man, after being inthese processes time and time again.
One person harmed, for instance, she wasone of two mothers who lost a son to a
(29:52):
double homicide, in a mass shooting atRoxborough High School in Philadelphia.
I was able to take her into the jails.
To sit and talk with four boys thatwas responsible for her son's killing.
She had to have this difficultconversation four different times.
She walked away saying, thisunlocked the secrets of the
universe for me.
(30:12):
I never heard it put that way before.
Wow, man.
Powerful.
I hope our listeners are seeing thedifference between this process of what
actually healing and accountabilitylooks like from a community level.
and from a justice system, level, whichwe know doesn't often help people.
It doesn't make people safe and doesn'tfoster real accountability, and healing.
(30:35):
Ghani on this topic of restorativejustice, our organization, Crime Survivors
Speak, The Campaign for Fair Sentencing ofYouth and also the Stoneleigh Foundation.
We are co-hosting a webinar in Decemberon restorative justice on how it serves
survivors, youth, and communitieswill be a virtual webinar that will
(30:56):
be co-hosting together in December.
What do you hope participants will takeaway from that webinar conversation?
Who's going to be involved in thatwebinar or how do you envision events
like this can help to advance thelarger movement for healing and
accountability and restorative justice?
(31:16):
Brother, we at CFSY are solooking forward to this webinar.
It's gonna be one of themany seeds we will sow and
cultivate and harvest together.
That's how we're looking at it.
It's so important, this webinar becausewe're modeling something not entirely new.
(31:36):
We're modeling somethingreally ancient and timeless.
Right?
Something that we didsince time immemorial.
Violence and victimization, unfortunately,has been a part of the human
condition since human beings existed.
(31:57):
Unfortunately, we've hurt each other.
We've hurt ourselves.
It's a glitch in our makeup, but one ofthe things we've done in that human thrust
to evolve and become better, and this isan ongoing thrust to become better and
to evolve and become more fully human.
(32:20):
Collectively, we came up withways to address harm that
centered our humanity and centeredcommunity and so on and so forth.
And this webinar between two organizationsthat advocate for two different
things, but that are connected.
We have one organization thatis the national organization for
(32:42):
advocating for survivors and anotherorganization that advocates for fear
and humane treatment of young people,
of youth, of children, and here weare basically showing that there's
no separation to these two causes.
most people who victimizeothers, especially children,
have been victims themselves.
(33:03):
And what we are modeling is ourshared humanity that old concept
of Ubuntu, humanity towardsothers, I am because you are.
Now, this uncertain funding landscapesfor organizations, that are about this
work of communities become better.
It's not about competing over grantmoney, but it's about linking arms,
(33:29):
and tackling these issues that areafflicting our communities, together.
Whether it's surviving crime or childrenbeing condemned to die in prison.
It's hard to find a household, especiallyin our cities, brother, that doesn't
hold both things, that doesn't havesomebody surviving harm and doesn't
(33:49):
have somebody, a family member thatwas snatched out of it and condemned
to prison, or a family member that wassent to the graveyard prematurely by
a senseless act of violence, whetherit was by a young person or whoever.
But we're left to deal with this.
We're left to nurse these wounds.
And the only how man, we can fix thisand heal resolve our problems and
(34:12):
create a beloved community is togetherbecause no one is benefiting from
this division more than the system.
Violence is a great divider.
It puts families against each other.
It puts neighborhoods against each other.
You know this, right?
It's beefs between neighborhoodsthat started with a single act of
violence and have gone on for decades.
(34:35):
Its generations of children born intoneighborhoods that's beefing with another
neighborhood, and they probably don'teven know that the history of the beef
goes on to an initial, act of harm.
What we're modeling with this webinar,should be the future of the movement.
Organizations that are entirelyindependent, effective at making change,
join forces, listen to each other, seehow we could support each other and
(35:00):
create change together, and that's whatI think we're modeling with this webinar.
And I think it's only the beginning andI'm looking forward to what we do next.
So we'll have more information aboutthe webinar, for you all to join us.
We're gonna have survivors there.
We're gonna have a judge therehelping people through the
restorative justice process.
You're gonna learn more on how toparticipate in restorative justice.
(35:21):
And that webinar willbe comoderated by Ghani.
I'm looking forward, to, closing out2025 on December, 2nd with our webinar
on Restorative Justice and how it helpssurvivors, youth, and communities.
Ghani, before we wrap up today'sepisode, I have one last question.
We are in a time where it isimportant to continue to develop
(35:44):
leaders in our communities to bethe advocates for change, for us.
So when you think about the nextgeneration of leaders, organizers,
advocates, storytellers, people whoare both survivors or people who have
caused harm, what gives you hope,and what message would you share with
(36:05):
our next generation of leaders aboutbuilding a truly restorative future?
Hope is an epic poem called Hopethe Rooster Who Crows at Night.
And that was the name of the rooster.
It was a rooster who when the sun wentdown, that's when the rooster crowed.
Not like other roosters that onlycrowed when they saw the sun.
(36:26):
This was a rooster that crowedwhen there was no reason to crow.
We're in a situation now, where it's likea blanket of despair over the country.
Huge question marks hoverover people's lives.
Some people might feel thatthere's no reason to hope.
Hope is something that doesn't wait to seeglimpses of possibility in order to exist.
(36:49):
In order for freedom to exist,hope has to proceed it.
Hope has to bring it about.
It seems as if we're in a situationnow where our backs are against
the wall in a lot of ways, andwe're gonna be forced to realize
that we are each other's only hope.
We have in us the capacityto change this situation.
(37:12):
and I think about prayerby The Terma Collective.
This would be my message to the younggeneration out there and to everybody.
We deserve a better life.
We deserve a world that'smore livable for everyone.
And that prayer says, "May our eyesremain open even in the face of tragedy.
(37:34):
May we not become disheartened.
May we find in the dissolutionof our apathy and denial,
the cup of the broken heart.
May we discover the gift of the fireburning in the inner chamber of our being,
bright enough to transform any poison.
May we offer the power ofour sorrow to the service of
(37:58):
something greater than ourselves.
May our guilt not rise up toform yet another defensive wall.
May the suffering purifyand not paralyze us.
May we endure.
May sorrow bond us and not separate us.
May we realize the greatness of our sorrowand not run from its touch or its flame.
(38:22):
May clarity be our allyand wisdom our support.
May our wrath be cleansing, cuttingthrough the confusion of denial and greed.
May we not be afraid tosee or speak our truth.
May the bleakness of thewasteland be dispelled.
May the soul's journey be revealed andthe true hunger fed, may we be forgiven
(38:48):
for what we have forgotten and blessedwith the remembrance of who we really are.
That is what gives me hope, is usdiscovering who we really are and who we
really are is not enemies to one another.
(39:08):
Even after we cause harm andcommit violence against each other,
and that can sometimes obfuscatethings and blind us to who we are.
It could put us in enemy campsnaturally, but when we discover who
we really are, we are one community.
We are members of the same human family.
(39:31):
Some of us may even havethe same ancestry, the same
great, great grandparents.
We have to discover ways to repairthe harms that we've done to each
other, or that we've inherited.
And we have ways now of repairingthose harms to each other.
And it's not through the courts, andit's not through prisons and cages.
(39:54):
It's through listening with the heartand with respect to one another,
speaking from the heart and withrespect to one another, honoring and
respecting the speaker, maintainingconfidentiality between each other
and remaining present andproximate to each other.
(40:16):
That's when we discover who we really are.
We are one community.
We're members of one family.
And we gotta see past those divisions.
And only then, we'll really be formidable.
We can't do this by ourselves.
We have to do this together orelse we gonna be having these same
conversations we are having right
now, we are gonna be havingthem 50 years from now.
What a powerful and deeply movingconversation we've had today.
(40:40):
Your leadership, your voice, yourexpertise, really challenges us to rethink
safety, not as control or incarceration.
But as healing,accountability, and community.
Your journey, your work, is a reminderthat true justice, doesn't come from
how much we punish, but how deeply weheal, how boldly we restore and how we
(41:08):
believe in people's capacity to change.
At Crime Survivor speak, we knowthat healing is not one sided
as we've talked about today.
Survivors and those who've,caused harm both carry that pain.
We create spaces for truth,accountability, and repair.
That helps us move closer to this world weall deserve, so we don't have to be having
(41:32):
these same conversations 50 years later.
Ghani, thank you for leading withwisdom, courage, compassion, and thank
you to all of our listeners today.
May this conversation sparkreflection, hope and action in your
own journey towards healing injustice.
And let us advocate foralternatives to this current system.
(41:56):
One of those pathways is througha restorative justice process.
We know that, at Crime SurvivorsSpeak we are healing through action.
And when survivors speak, change happens.
Ghani, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you, my brother.
Be blessed.
You know when crime
survivors speak.
Change happens.
Welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Directorof Crime Survivors Speak.
We are over 200,000 crime victims andsurvivors from across the country.
Please subscribe to stay up to date onthe latest episodes of the Crime Survivor
Speak podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,Spotify, and other streaming services.
(00:25):
I'm back today with one ofmy favorite human beings.
I'll be talking with Ghani Songster, whois a nationally recognized restorative
justice leader and advocate forhealing centered approaches to safety.
After being sentenced to life withoutparole as a teenager and spending
(00:45):
30 years incarcerated, Ghani hasemerged as a powerful voice for
transformation, accountability,healing and second chances.
Today, Ghani serves as theTransformative Healing and Restorative
Justice Manager at The Campaignfor the Fair Sentencing of Youth.
(01:07):
Ghani really works to replace systems of
punishment with models of restorationthat uplift both survivors and
those who have caused harm.
Ghani, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, Aswad.
It's great to be with you again.
And just to engage you inconversation one more time.
We always take some deep qualitative divesand it's a blessing to have an opportunity
(01:30):
to do that, especially in this way.
Your story and your work is one of truetransformation, from being sentenced
to life without parole as a teenagerto now becoming a national voice
for justice reform, can you take usback to that journey and share what
(01:51):
sparked your shift towards healing.
First of all, thank you for youracknowledgement and your embrace.
That's what turnstransformation into redemption.
You can change behind the walls.
You know, after you've done a harm.
You can better yourself.
But if it's not accepted, if it'snot believed by the community,
(02:14):
by your human family, then it'sjust your personal transformation.
But when it's believed, when it'saccepted, when your transformation
is embraced by your fellowhumans and by your community.
That's when you're redeemed, that's whenthe transformation becomes redemption.
For me, hearing you recognizingmy capacity to transform, hearing
you accept that, for me that'sredemption and I really appreciate
(02:36):
you and the community afford me that.
My transformation didn't happen overnight,and everybody's journey is different.
Most of the people I've met behind thewalls that have changed and regained
their humanity and moral rectitude.
It didn't happen overnight.
Certainly not for me when I went intoprison at the age of 15, in 1987,
(03:00):
for my role in an irreparable andirreversible act of violence that
happened as I was a runaway, 250 milesaway from my home in Brooklyn, in the
company of a gang in Philadelphia.
When I entered the prison doors,even with a sentence of life without
(03:22):
parole, or death by incarceration.
I didn't really understand what that was.
I didn't fully appreciate thegravity, not just of what I had
done, but what had happened to me.
It would take years well into myincarceration for me to realize
what I was facing, and reallyappreciate the permanence of
(03:46):
the blood that was on my hands.
It was a harm that I would neverbe able to fix no matter what.
It would take years for meto come to terms with that.
On my first visit that I had with mymother when she came to visit me and
I was in the Youth Study Center, shebrought three books for me to read.
(04:08):
She brought the autobiography ofMalcolm X, the autobiography of Nelson
Mandela, and a book entitled Kaffir Boyby Mark Mathabane, which was a story
situated in Apartheid South Africa.
Even though she brought those books, andthose books would wet my appetite for more
knowledge and I would gorge my appetite onanything I could get my hands on to read.
(04:31):
It still took a long time for meto fully internalize what I was
reading and fully come to termswith the harm that I had caused.
I had developed an analysis.
about violence.
I had developed a geopolitical analysisabout violence and I abhorred what
I'd learned, was the violence thatwas consuming my communities and the
(04:54):
world, and, was very critical of it.
But I'd still not come to terms withthe fact that I was an actor in the
narrative of violence in my community.
And so it didn't take until I started torealize that there was a hypocrisy in me.
(05:17):
I started to feel like a hypocrite whenI would go outside my cell and I would
educate other young brothers, you know,this is years after being in prison.
Now I'm like educating other youngbrothers sharing things to read and
talking to them about their role in thecommunity, talking to them about war in
(05:37):
the world, and I would go back into mycell and feel like a split personality,
my self accusing spirit was very brutal.
The more conscious I became, the moreI abhorred violence, the more and
the older I got and the more mature Ibecame, the less at peace I was with
(05:58):
myself, because I felt like a fraud.
It was that feeling that propelled me tocome to terms with my own contributions
to the harm taking place in the community.
Certainly the harm that I had caused.
I started reading about restorativejustice, and ways that people
(06:24):
and cultures around the world hadaddressed harms, ways that centered
community and centered relationships.
And centered accountability.
And it was the piece aboutaccountability, obligations to repairing
the harm after you've caused harm.
Those two, two principles right there.
Accountability and fulfilling one'sobligations to repairing harm.
(06:47):
It propelled me into deeper introspection.
It was then that I came to termswith, look, I cannot be real about
wanting to be an agent of changeuntil I was honest with myself.
I first had to be the change that Iwanted to see, not just in rhetoric, not
(07:11):
just in preaching to other young people.
I had to really internalize and accept,first and foremost that I played a
part in harm that I could never fullyrepair or repay the community for.
I couldn't bring back human life,but I could convict myself to
(07:31):
a life of trying to steer otherpeople from causing similar harms.
I couldn't get to that point untilI made that admission to myself.
And I came to the terms with myself.
That's when thetransformation really changed.
Until that happened,
it was just rhetoric brother.
Wow, man, so incredible.
The work that you had to do, along withmany others, inside those facilities.
(07:55):
As you were talking, I was just thinkingabout the justice system, have a role
in helping to rehabilitate people.
Many people don't know, not only amI a victim of gun violence, but my
oldest brother, he's actually servinglife without the possibility of parole.
He's been incarcerated for the past 24years, and I often talk with him, as well.
(08:16):
And he's always telling me howmuch work he's doing himself.
Right.
Or the other inmates are doingthemselves and not a lot of support
from the justice system to kind ofhelp with some of that rehabilitation.
He often talk about the relationshipsthat he's built over the years.
How that's helped him in hisown healing journey, also helped
his fellow brothers as well.
So I'm curious during your 30 yearsof incarceration, as you talked
(08:40):
about, not only within yourself, butwith your brothers, you've built a
community of accountability and healing.
I'm curious to hear from you, what role
did those relationships that you havewith your brothers or folks inside that
played a role in your transformation?
And what do those relationships teachus about the human capacity for change?
(09:03):
Yeah.
First, let me just say this, Aswad.
Thank you for lifting up the part aboutthe system, not really facilitating any
avenues for true transformation, alsotalking about your own brother and the
struggles he's experienced, and how he hasto exercise his own agency to transform
(09:29):
and redeem himself, a lot of times againststrong countercurrent on the inside.
Just like myself, your brother hasnot become the person that he now.
More responsible and socially responsible,ecologically and environmentally
responsible in his decision making.
(09:49):
He hasn't become thatbecause of prison, but in
spite of prison.
You know what I mean?
because from the very first encounter wehave with the authorities with the system,
what are the first words we hear, brother?
The very first words when ourso-called rights are read to us is
anything you say can and will be used
(10:11):
against you.
And so automatically, we aredissuaded in no uncertain terms
from taking accountability.
We are dissuaded from doing one ofthe very first things that's vital to
healing and vital to accountability,and that is truth telling.
(10:31):
That is one of the core valuesand principles of restorative
justice, truth telling and healing.
There is no accountability withouttruth telling, and there is no
healing without accountability noneof this happens without first truth
telling, and we are dissuaded fromtelling the truth by that threat.
Anything you say can andwill be used against you.
(10:52):
As a 15-year-old, could you imaginewhat those words, how they land on me?
and then, the unwritten street codes
you never
tell on yourself.
And so we're sandwichedbetween those two things.
And then you meet your lawyer andyour lawyer tells you, no, I got this.
Be quiet.
And you watch them put on the bestperformance for you in court and mind you,
(11:13):
I know a lot of people who are innocent.
There are really people who are innocent,who shouldn't even be in prison.
I don't believe prison is for anyone, butI'm not speaking as an innocent person.
I'm speaking as a responsible youth.
However, those avenues for realtransformation, which could begin
right after the harm with your,first encounter of the system, those
(11:34):
avenues are not only not facilitated,they are obstructed by the system.
And so when we get upstate, let's saywe lose the case, and we get upstate
with this sentence, then we're told, wespend our time in the law library looking
for avenues to get back in and win.
Not based on any realization ofthe role that we played in harm,
(11:55):
but we're looking for loopholes.
We're looking to try to getback in on a technicality.
And so we're not really encouragedto do any self-exploration that
leads to real transformation.
Everything is about expediency,is tactical, is strategic, and
then we begin to lie to ourselves.
And the lie becomes the truth.
And not everybody is effective, somepeople end up with 30, 40, 50 years
(12:17):
in prison, old and still have missedthe important self-work needed to
really embrace accountability andtheir obligation to repairing harm.
To the role that the community webuild behind the walls plays in our
transformation, it definitely shows thatthe true measure of transformation is
how as a social creature you learn howto be with other humans, how we learn to
(12:39):
support each other and hold each other up.
Because a lot of us are nursingvarious traumas even before we enter
the walls, we would not dare go see apsychologist, in prison, because they
were not, working in our best interests.
They might impede our ability to gain somerelief later on, whether it's with the
parole board, if that opportunity exists.
(13:01):
Or with the Board of Pardons.
So we go many years without anyreal professional support, to help
us address any of these traumasor issues that led to our harm.
And so the only ones we haveto turn to behind the walls
is each other.
And we are not trained therapists.
We hold each other up in the weight pits.
(13:21):
We hold each other up and counseleach other in the chow halls, library.
We pray next to each other,in each other's cells.
We are the ones holding each other up.
And so we are a part of each other'stransformation in there, even though
we're not trained professionals.
And so the communities we buildbehind the walls, although it's
some unfortunate circumstancesthat led us to form community.
(13:45):
It's those communities, between peoplewho've caused harm, when we are able
to find a modicum of humanity inourself and cultivate it and nourish
it and do the same for each other.
Those are the relationshipsbehind the walls.
They do exist betweenpeople who cause harm.
We are the ones who help eachother find our way back, to
our humanity, behind the walls.
(14:07):
I could listen to you talk all day.
Just so insightful and, your passionand also the importance of having your
voice, in leadership in this work, right?
To help us think about what adifferent type of system looks like
as it relates to justice and safety.
And you said, before that justiceis not the same as punishment.
(14:29):
What does justice mean to you now, andhow has your understanding of it evolved
through your life and experiences?
Thank you for that, brother.
I appreciate you, putting theword evolved in there, because
it certainly has evolved.
For many of us, we've grown up with thedominant perspective on what justice is.
(14:54):
Justice is an eye for an eye.
We grew up with that, readingour comic books, looking at
movies and cops and robbers.
Justice is something that onlyhappens after a harm is done.
Sometimes we carry out that perspectiveof justice in a very warped way
in the streets amongst each other.
(15:15):
Sometimes when we exact vengeance onsomeone in the community, it's with
this idea that we are doing justice.
It's a very troubling concept,that infects our thinking and
the way we perceive the world.
Over time, I started to realize thatjustice is not even this responsive thing
(15:38):
that only happens after a harm is done.
It's certainly not this thing that'shoarded up in some edifice somewhere,
like an item on a shelf that we go to,when we trespass against each other
in order to have someone ration outto us, when we do each other wrong.
Justice also comes at the front end.
(16:00):
My favorite definition Dr. CornellWest's definition of justice is
what love looks like in public.
Justice is how we meet each other,greet each other, and treat each other.
It's not this thing thathappens when it's too late.
You know what I mean?
It's about what kind of culture wecreate that reduces the likelihood
(16:21):
or tendency to resort to violenceor to have violent inclinations.
As you and I are talking, someoneis standing in the face of
some kind of approaching harm.
Somebody probably was just harmed, right?
Somebody is strapping up right nowand moving towards a certain target.
(16:46):
Someone just did it andthey're cleaning up the scene.
Mm.
We don't know what it is, butI guarantee you, you turn on
the news tonight, we'll see it.
Yep.
And so the question is, is our conceptof justice availing those people, those
(17:06):
innocent people who are standing inthe wake of harm or who've been harmed?
And so we have to have adifferent concept of justice.
It can't be something that justcomes after when it's too late.
It has to be something that precedes harmand that changes the kind of culture that
our communities living in.
And it takes resources too, tocreate that kind of culture.
(17:29):
People's needs have to be met.
Young people's needs have to be met.
They have to be receiving theright kind of information and
the right kind of education.
It has to be what lovelooks like in public.
That concept of justice for me issomething that evolved over the years.
It has to center community,relationships, obligations.
(17:52):
these are the questions, that areasked normally by the current system
of so-called justice, the criminallegal system when harm has happened.
What laws were broken?
In a restorative justice or healingjustice or transformative justice,
the first question is who was harmed?
See one form of justice centers the law.
(18:13):
The law is the victim.
Another form of justicecenters human beings.
The next question the system might askis, what kind of punishment they deserve?
Restorative justice mightask, what are their needs?
Whose obligation is itto meet these needs?
The concept of justice I've grown intonow is a justice that serves the health
(18:37):
and wellbeing of the community, and gaugesits effectiveness by how well it serves
the health and wellbeing of the community.
Thank you.
As you have talked about, we have a systemthat claims to hold people accountable
for their actions, but we also know thattrue accountability, it requires courage.
(18:58):
It requires a willingness toacknowledge and heal from harm.
Today, your work focus onbridging that gap, right?
Between those who've caused harmand also those who've been harmed.
How do you approach thatdifficult, challenging work?
What have you learned about whatreal accountability looks like
(19:19):
for people who have caused harm?
Also, for those who've been harmed?
Thank you, Aswad.
Prior to my position now at theCampaign for the Fair Sentencing of
Youth, for three years, I was theprogram manager of Philadelphia's
first restorative justice diversionprogram for youth, Healing Futures.
That program entailed the districtattorney's office referring the
(19:43):
cases of young people to us whohad caused some type of harm.
And then we would reach out to theyoung person and see if they would
like to enroll, and then we would alsoreach out to the person harmed and
see if they would like to participate.
Then we would spend at least eight weeks,with weekly meetings, preparing both
(20:05):
parties to come together to face eachother in what we called a restorative
community conference, a very intimateprocess at which time the young person
would get to hear from the person harmedhow their actions impacted this person
and their life and their family's life.
And the young person would, probablybe accompanied by a caregiver.
(20:26):
They would hear how their actionsimpacted their family, community
members who were not directly impactedby the harm, but are invested in the
health and wellbeing of the community,especially the state of our children.
They would get to hear from thosecommunity members the indirect impact
of their harm, and then everyone wouldget to hear from this young person,
(20:47):
an accountability statement or anapology to the person harmed, to their
families, to the community at large.
And it wasn't as if, everyone isthere to ambush the young person
and just lay a bunch of guiltand blame on the young person.
Because the young person would also hearwhat hopes everyone had in him or her.
(21:08):
And then everyone wouldthen break bread together.
They would eat, and then they wouldcome back and they would huddle up
on what would be the restorativeplan for this young person, the
plan for this young person to repairthe harm and put things more right.
And that plan might last anywherefrom two months to seven months.
(21:29):
The plan would be governed by anoverarching theme called SMART.
It's an acronym that you'reprobably well familiar with.
It had to be specific, it hadto be measurable, it had to
be attainable, it had to berestorative or related to the harm.
And it had to be time bound.
It had to have a startdate and a finish date.
Once the young person finished theprogram, Then we would let the district
(21:51):
attorney's office know and no chargeswould be filed, no criminal record entered
that could haunt this child's abilityto get a job later on in life, a place
of residence or a college education.
We would have a community celebrationcelebrating both the responsible
youth and the community together.
With awards to both of them, withfood, with dance, not celebrating that
(22:17):
some young person got off softly forcommitting a harm, but celebrating the
community's agency to resolve its owntrespasses without handcuffs and cages.
Ludic justice, ludic, L-U-D-I-C, whichmeans cheerful or joyful, and it's a
concept that comes out of South Africa.
(22:39):
If you look up writings on ludicjustice, you'll learn about this concept
that's even a step beyond restorativejustice, where people on both sides
of harm can share joy together.
in a circle process after harm where aperson who caused the harm might give
an apology and the person who was harmedmight outwardly accept the apology.
(22:59):
We might not really be sure thathealing really has taken place, or even
that reconciliation has taken place.
But one clear indicator thatreconciliation has taken place
between these two spirits.
One clear indicator that healing hasbegun is when you can see a person who
(23:20):
caused harm and the person that theyharmed sharing joy, sharing a laugh.
That's why the communitycelebrations are important.
At the retreat we just did, brother,after all the sobering conversation,
and all the sharing about harm andabout accountability and causing
harm and admitting these thingsand telling truth to each other.
(23:42):
We did
karaoke brother.
We did karaoke and we partiedbecause that's the end game.
That's the beloved community.
That's the healed community.
That's the end game.
That's how we bring it all together.
And that's so important, forus as society, especially, here
in America, to look at otheralternatives to incarceration.
(24:03):
As you were sharing, I was thinkingabout my own experience of when I
was shot, two teenagers, they were18 and 19 years old at the time.
Something I continued to think abouttoday, the potential opportunity to
have a restorative justice type ofprocess and conversation with those
two young men to really help me heal,but also help them heal as well.
(24:25):
I'm curious, from all of the workthat you've been doing around
restorative justice, what have beenthe perspective of crime victims
who have went through that process?
Oh, thanks for asking that.
Healing Future is the program that Imentioned before that I used to work
with for three years before I joined TheCampaign for the Fair Sentencing of Youth.
(24:45):
They recently launched theirofficial report on the program.
The Stoneleigh Foundation had grantedsomeone a fellowship, Hanae Mason, to
write the official report And that reportwas just launched maybe three weeks ago.
In that report, you can read some of thetestimonies in addition to the statistics.
(25:07):
100% satisfaction rate among the persons
harmed.
It's incredible.
Organizations like Common Justice inBrooklyn, New York, had a 91% satisfaction
rate among persons harmed and someother restorative justice diversion
programs like in Alameda County and SanFrancisco, satisfaction rates in all
(25:31):
these different programs are in the 90percents, where persons harmed are more
satisfied with a restorative justiceapproach than a carceral approach.
Because with a restorative justiceapproach, it puts the harmed
party in the driver's seat.
(25:51):
It allows them to exercise theirown agency and to reclaim their
identity as a human being becausenothing robs the identity of a human
being more than an act of violence.
You know, it robs you ofyour sense of security.
It robs you of your sense of certainhood.
It robs you of your senseof belonging in a community.
(26:12):
After this, I imagine people questioningif this is really my community.
'Cause I can't even feel safein my own community, so it must
not really be my community.
A restorative justice process by allowinga person harmed to sit in the same circle
with the person who harmed them and facethem with courage, demystify them and face
them and speak their truth with courage.
(26:33):
And receive from this person the veryleast of what the person harmed is worth,
which is an apology, which is somethingthey would never get in the court
system, is tremendously, tremendouslyempowering for a person harmed, right?
And to have the person harmedthen also be a defining factor
(26:54):
of what repairing the harm thathappened to them is gonna look like.
Right.
That is incredibly beneficial.
That is incredibly empowering.
And this is something that neverhappens in the court process.
You know what the court process islike, brother, you go in the courtroom.
It's an adversarial process.
Everybody is separated.
The responsible party, and theirfamily and supporters are on one side,
(27:18):
the harmed party and their familyand supporters are on another side.
They can't even look at each other, sothey're not even allowed to make eye
contact and say anything to each otherand rediscover each other's humanity
or even speak their peace or theirtruth to each other in a civil way.
They're not even allowedto wave at each other.
The only interpretations of each otherthat they have is what they're told.
(27:41):
One side is told, look, thesepeople want you locked up forever.
They're angry at you.
The other side is these peoplejust want their loved one home.
They don't really care aboutwhat happened to your loved one.
Both could be the furthestthing from the truth.
And the only voices areheard in this arena that's
separated literally by offense.
So everyone is separated fromthe goings on about their lives,
(28:02):
about something that happened tothem or something that they did.
The only voices are heard is a defenseand a prosecutor arguing for and
against both sides and one sittingliterally at a higher altitude.
Judging everyone.
And the only time anybody is allowed tospeak is when they're called on, and then
they speak and only ask questions thatthey might not even really wanna be asked.
(28:27):
Might not even be the mostimportant questions to ask
to lead to real empowerment.
Questions are only asked that wouldlead to victory for either side.
And then everyone is dispensedwith, no one is checked up on later
to see how they're healing fromthe traumas of what's going on.
Meanwhile, violence and victimizationcontinues to rage on in our
communities, with this model right here.
(28:49):
In a restorative justice model,everyone sits in a circle.
They face each other in honestyand courage and civility.
They address each other,they speak to each other.
They listen.
The
guidelines are listen withthe heart and with respect.
Speak from the heart and with respect,honor the talking piece, meaning
honor the person who's speaking.
(29:10):
Honor confidentiality, meaningwhat's set here, stays here.
It's not for the streets.
This is not media news.
What's the alliteration we use?
Stories stay, lessons leave.
The details stay here, but the lessons,the wisdom, the principle, the values
that we extract from this experience,that's what we take with us and share
with the world and we remain present.
(29:32):
Those are the guidelines, and that's whatit takes to lead to real reconciliation,
lead to real healing, to lead to realagency, lead to real accountability and,
I'm telling you, man, after being inthese processes time and time again.
One person harmed, for instance, she wasone of two mothers who lost a son to a
(29:52):
double homicide, in a mass shooting atRoxborough High School in Philadelphia.
I was able to take her into the jails.
To sit and talk with four boys thatwas responsible for her son's killing.
She had to have this difficultconversation four different times.
She walked away saying, thisunlocked the secrets of the
universe for me.
(30:12):
I never heard it put that way before.
Wow, man.
Powerful.
I hope our listeners are seeing thedifference between this process of what
actually healing and accountabilitylooks like from a community level.
and from a justice system, level, whichwe know doesn't often help people.
It doesn't make people safe and doesn'tfoster real accountability, and healing.
(30:35):
Ghani on this topic of restorativejustice, our organization, Crime Survivors
Speak, The Campaign for Fair Sentencing ofYouth and also the Stoneleigh Foundation.
We are co-hosting a webinar in Decemberon restorative justice on how it serves
survivors, youth, and communitieswill be a virtual webinar that will
(30:56):
be co-hosting together in December.
What do you hope participants will takeaway from that webinar conversation?
Who's going to be involved in thatwebinar or how do you envision events
like this can help to advance thelarger movement for healing and
accountability and restorative justice?
(31:16):
Brother, we at CFSY are solooking forward to this webinar.
It's gonna be one of themany seeds we will sow and
cultivate and harvest together.
That's how we're looking at it.
It's so important, this webinar becausewe're modeling something not entirely new.
(31:36):
We're modeling somethingreally ancient and timeless.
Right?
Something that we didsince time immemorial.
Violence and victimization, unfortunately,has been a part of the human
condition since human beings existed.
(31:57):
Unfortunately, we've hurt each other.
We've hurt ourselves.
It's a glitch in our makeup, but one ofthe things we've done in that human thrust
to evolve and become better, and this isan ongoing thrust to become better and
to evolve and become more fully human.
(32:20):
Collectively, we came up withways to address harm that
centered our humanity and centeredcommunity and so on and so forth.
And this webinar between two organizationsthat advocate for two different
things, but that are connected.
We have one organization thatis the national organization for
(32:42):
advocating for survivors and anotherorganization that advocates for fear
and humane treatment of young people,
of youth, of children, and here weare basically showing that there's
no separation to these two causes.
most people who victimizeothers, especially children,
have been victims themselves.
(33:03):
And what we are modeling is ourshared humanity that old concept
of Ubuntu, humanity towardsothers, I am because you are.
Now, this uncertain funding landscapesfor organizations, that are about this
work of communities become better.
It's not about competing over grantmoney, but it's about linking arms,
(33:29):
and tackling these issues that areafflicting our communities, together.
Whether it's surviving crime or childrenbeing condemned to die in prison.
It's hard to find a household, especiallyin our cities, brother, that doesn't
hold both things, that doesn't havesomebody surviving harm and doesn't
(33:49):
have somebody, a family member thatwas snatched out of it and condemned
to prison, or a family member that wassent to the graveyard prematurely by
a senseless act of violence, whetherit was by a young person or whoever.
But we're left to deal with this.
We're left to nurse these wounds.
And the only how man, we can fix thisand heal resolve our problems and
(34:12):
create a beloved community is togetherbecause no one is benefiting from
this division more than the system.
Violence is a great divider.
It puts families against each other.
It puts neighborhoods against each other.
You know this, right?
It's beefs between neighborhoodsthat started with a single act of
violence and have gone on for decades.
(34:35):
Its generations of children born intoneighborhoods that's beefing with another
neighborhood, and they probably don'teven know that the history of the beef
goes on to an initial, act of harm.
What we're modeling with this webinar,should be the future of the movement.
Organizations that are entirelyindependent, effective at making change,
join forces, listen to each other, seehow we could support each other and
(35:00):
create change together, and that's whatI think we're modeling with this webinar.
And I think it's only the beginning andI'm looking forward to what we do next.
So we'll have more information aboutthe webinar, for you all to join us.
We're gonna have survivors there.
We're gonna have a judge therehelping people through the
restorative justice process.
You're gonna learn more on how toparticipate in restorative justice.
(35:21):
And that webinar willbe comoderated by Ghani.
I'm looking forward, to, closing out2025 on December, 2nd with our webinar
on Restorative Justice and how it helpssurvivors, youth, and communities.
Ghani, before we wrap up today'sepisode, I have one last question.
We are in a time where it isimportant to continue to develop
(35:44):
leaders in our communities to bethe advocates for change, for us.
So when you think about the nextgeneration of leaders, organizers,
advocates, storytellers, people whoare both survivors or people who have
caused harm, what gives you hope,and what message would you share with
(36:05):
our next generation of leaders aboutbuilding a truly restorative future?
Hope is an epic poem called Hopethe Rooster Who Crows at Night.
And that was the name of the rooster.
It was a rooster who when the sun wentdown, that's when the rooster crowed.
Not like other roosters that onlycrowed when they saw the sun.
(36:26):
This was a rooster that crowedwhen there was no reason to crow.
We're in a situation now, where it's likea blanket of despair over the country.
Huge question marks hoverover people's lives.
Some people might feel thatthere's no reason to hope.
Hope is something that doesn't wait to seeglimpses of possibility in order to exist.
(36:49):
In order for freedom to exist,hope has to proceed it.
Hope has to bring it about.
It seems as if we're in a situationnow where our backs are against
the wall in a lot of ways, andwe're gonna be forced to realize
that we are each other's only hope.
We have in us the capacityto change this situation.
(37:12):
and I think about prayerby The Terma Collective.
This would be my message to the younggeneration out there and to everybody.
We deserve a better life.
We deserve a world that'smore livable for everyone.
And that prayer says, "May our eyesremain open even in the face of tragedy.
(37:34):
May we not become disheartened.
May we find in the dissolutionof our apathy and denial,
the cup of the broken heart.
May we discover the gift of the fireburning in the inner chamber of our being,
bright enough to transform any poison.
May we offer the power ofour sorrow to the service of
(37:58):
something greater than ourselves.
May our guilt not rise up toform yet another defensive wall.
May the suffering purifyand not paralyze us.
May we endure.
May sorrow bond us and not separate us.
May we realize the greatness of our sorrowand not run from its touch or its flame.
(38:22):
May clarity be our allyand wisdom our support.
May our wrath be cleansing, cuttingthrough the confusion of denial and greed.
May we not be afraid tosee or speak our truth.
May the bleakness of thewasteland be dispelled.
May the soul's journey be revealed andthe true hunger fed, may we be forgiven
(38:48):
for what we have forgotten and blessedwith the remembrance of who we really are.
That is what gives me hope, is usdiscovering who we really are and who we
really are is not enemies to one another.
(39:08):
Even after we cause harm andcommit violence against each other,
and that can sometimes obfuscatethings and blind us to who we are.
It could put us in enemy campsnaturally, but when we discover who
we really are, we are one community.
We are members of the same human family.
(39:31):
Some of us may even havethe same ancestry, the same
great, great grandparents.
We have to discover ways to repairthe harms that we've done to each
other, or that we've inherited.
And we have ways now of repairingthose harms to each other.
And it's not through the courts, andit's not through prisons and cages.
(39:54):
It's through listening with the heartand with respect to one another,
speaking from the heart and withrespect to one another, honoring and
respecting the speaker, maintainingconfidentiality between each other
and remaining present andproximate to each other.
(40:16):
That's when we discover who we really are.
We are one community.
We're members of one family.
And we gotta see past those divisions.
And only then, we'll really be formidable.
We can't do this by ourselves.
We have to do this together orelse we gonna be having these same
conversations we are having right
now, we are gonna be havingthem 50 years from now.
What a powerful and deeply movingconversation we've had today.
(40:40):
Your leadership, your voice, yourexpertise, really challenges us to rethink
safety, not as control or incarceration.
But as healing,accountability, and community.
Your journey, your work, is a reminderthat true justice, doesn't come from
how much we punish, but how deeply weheal, how boldly we restore and how we
(41:08):
believe in people's capacity to change.
At Crime Survivor speak, we knowthat healing is not one sided
as we've talked about today.
Survivors and those who've,caused harm both carry that pain.
We create spaces for truth,accountability, and repair.
That helps us move closer to this world weall deserve, so we don't have to be having
(41:32):
these same conversations 50 years later.
Ghani, thank you for leading withwisdom, courage, compassion, and thank
you to all of our listeners today.
May this conversation sparkreflection, hope and action in your
own journey towards healing injustice.
And let us advocate foralternatives to this current system.
(41:56):
One of those pathways is througha restorative justice process.
We know that, at Crime SurvivorsSpeak we are healing through action.
And when survivors speak, change happens.
Ghani, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you, my brother.
Be blessed.
You know when crime
survivors speak.
Change happens.
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