May 6, 2026 • 38 mins
In this episode of Crime Survivors Speak, host Aswad Thomas speaks with Marlee Liss—survivor, restorative justice advocate, somatic educator, and founder of Survivors 4 Justice Reform. After becoming the first sexual assault survivor in North America to have her case resolved through a court-mandated restorative justice process, Marlee has become a leading voice in reimagining how we respond to harm.
Together, they explore the limitations of traditional legal systems, the importance of survivor agency, and what meaningful accountability can look like beyond punishment. Marlee shares how her experience reshaped her understanding of justice and why expanding survivor choice is essential to healing.
This conversation invites listeners to consider an approach rooted in dignity, repair, and the possibility of transformation.
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(00:02):
Hello, welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Directorof Crime Survivor Speak.
We are a national network ofover 200,000 crime victims and
survivors all across the country.
If you haven't, subscribe to stayup to date on the latest episodes.
(00:23):
You can do that on YouTube,
Apple Podcasts and Spotify, or youcan go to our website at www.cssj.org.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation to speak to another
amazing leader in our survivor movement.
Marlee Liss is a survivor.
(00:43):
She's an award-winning speaker.
She's a somatic educator and also thefounder of Survivors for Justice Reform,
which is a global survivor led coalition,
advocating for restorative andtransformative approaches to justice.
After becoming one of the first sexualassault survivors in North America to have
(01:05):
her criminal case resolved through a courtmandated restorative justice process,
Marlee has dedicated her work to expandingsurvivor voices, expanding survivor agency
and healing within the justice systems.
Marlee is a leading voice inreimagining what accountability,
repair, and true justice can looklike for survivors of sexual violence.
(01:28):
Marlee, welcome to the CrimeSurvivors Speak podcast.
Thank you so much for having me on and forall the incredible work you've been doing.
I'm excited, over these past twoyears, how we've been able to connect
and also we've got a lot of ideasof how we will partner together.
Thank you for doing your amazingwork all across the world.
Marlee, I would love to start by talkingabout Survivors for Justice Reform.
(01:52):
This is a coalition, an organizationyou founded which has grown into a
global coalition all across the world.
I would love to hear from you the mostpowerful things that you've learned
from survivors in the Survivors forJustice Reform Coalition community.
Yeah, so many things.
I think it's just really affirmed for mehow powerful survivor stories actually
(02:18):
are, real survivor stories, because Ithink about Netflix and true crime dramas.
And I see like the narrativesbeing pushed there.
And when we watch those shows,we see all of these survivors,
pushing for the courtroom,pushing for long prison sentences.
And our culture kind of accepts, oh,okay, that must be what survivors want.
(02:40):
But then as I've seen and as your workhas shown as well, when we actually
turn toward survivors, and ask peoplewhat they need after trauma, after
violence or loss, we hear again andagain, like people want healing.
They want the violence to stop.
They want reassurance thatthis harm won't happen again.
(03:01):
And for me, the coalition forming it wasvery much about centering those stories,
amplifying those stories, and I think itsolidified for me how much power there
is when we actually listen to survivors.
And there's so many versions of whysomeone is advocating for restorative and
(03:23):
transformative justice, for alternativesto that punitive approach and the
reasons people have of why they'readvocating is just so powerful, right?
Like people who have been failedby the criminal legal system.
People who never felt safegoing to law enforcement.
People who always wanted healingrather than just punishment.
(03:43):
These stories come out andthey hold so much power.
So I think for me, that'swhat really amazes me every
single day is those stories.
As survivors, often we don't get thoseopportunities to share our stories.
We don't get those opportunities toeven weigh in on what justice looks
like and what we would have wanted.
(04:04):
And Marlee, you have one of themost incredible, powerful stories
that I've heard in a very long time.
And your story and your work has becomea catalyst for deeper conversations
across so many communities.
Would love to hear from you,
was there a moment when you realizedyour story wasn't just personal,
(04:29):
but that it had the power to changehow people think about justice?
So for me, like for anyonewho hasn't heard it before,
I experienced sexual assault.
I experienced rape, and I started goingthrough the court process and I didn't
know there was any other options.
As I was going through thisprocess, I felt like for three years
(04:51):
everyone was being more traumatized.
I felt like I was being dehumanized.
The person who harmed me, I waslike, I don't see how this is gonna
make him a safer member of society.
And so eventually I started
researching other options and finallylearned about restorative justice and
(05:11):
started fighting for that outcome and wasable to get a prosecutor to agree to it.
And so that meant my assailant didseven months of extensive therapy and
then we eventually met in this circleprocess and restorative justice.
The circle process that we did hasroots in indigenous communities.
(05:32):
It was incredible.
Like in comparison to the court process,it was night and day like where court
was traumatic and suffocating and mademe feel smaller than a mouse, the circle
was actually healing and empowering andit clicked for me during the circle.
Wow, this is so much bigger than myself.
(05:53):
I think the reason that happened wasbecause we were able to talk about
harm in context, like the court kindof zooms in and acts as if violence
comes out of the blue and people causeviolence, just 'cause they're bad apples.
But in this circle, we're actually ableto talk about, why did this happen?
What did my assailant learnin his life that led him to
(06:15):
justify this degree of violence?
And that opened the door for biggerconversations like rape culture and the
ways that masculinity can be taught withinpatriarchy that's harmful to everyone.
And we started talking about consent andpower dynamics, and I was just so struck.
This is healing.
(06:36):
Yes, for me as the survivor who wentthrough this, but it also ripples
out for both of us to impact everyonein our communities and in our lives.
That was one really big moment.
Another one I'll name is when I
first went public with my story.
And for me, like the impetusfor doing that was really people
(06:56):
deserve to know this option exists.
I wanna make sure they know about it.
But I didn't expect the flood ofmessages I got from survivors of crime
and especially of sexual violence.
Thousands and thousands ofpeople saying, I wish I had
known about restorative justice.
I wish I had known abouttransformative justice.
(07:18):
I wish I knew there was an option beyondreport to the police or do nothing.
That made it so clear to me like, oh,this is part of a much, much larger
conversation and just seeing howmany people are wanting the violence
to stop, are wanting processes thatactually like eradicate harm instead
(07:42):
of just transferring it from thevictim back to the perpetrator.
And it, it made me aware, this is partof a larger movement that I was really
just learning about as I was going.
So those are two momentsthat stand out for sure.
Two powerful moments.
Thinking about that process for youand your family, would love to hear,
(08:02):
what does support look like for you?
Good question.
It's definitely looks likea lot of different things.
A lot of like trial and error,forgetting I need support and
then remembering I need support.
But it's definitely lookedlike therapy, community care,
reading and watching other survivorstories, helping to validate our own.
(08:26):
What I feel so privileged to haveexperienced by having restorative
justice is like the justice processbecame a pillar of support for me.
And it's usually the opposite.
In our punitive context where we'vebeen taught to see justice as courtrooms
and gavels and prison sentences.
(08:46):
Usually when Survivors are navigatingthat, it's so painful that we
have to seek outside support tojust heal from courtroom trauma.
But for me it was the opposite.
Finally, like after years of thatcourt process, it was like I finally
got to have a justice process thatwas actually catalyzing my healing
and I felt that every step of the way.
(09:08):
We use language like trauma informed,but it was so humane and caring.
Every single detail was so intentional.
Leading up to the circle itself,
we'd have one-to-one meetingswith the facilitators and they'd
ask, how can we make you feeleven 1% more safe in the room?
What snacks do you wantin the room that day?
(09:29):
What's a symbol you can use toindicate that you wanna break?
What do you really need after trauma andhow can we support in making that happen?
The justice process became a pillar ofsupport, which is a big piece of what I
advocate for is, we shouldn't any of usbe complacent with a reality in which
justice is an obstacle to our healing.
(09:51):
It should be the opposite.
It should be something we canlean into to support our healing.
And that's the system thatwe are trying to build.
Right?
And so, Marlee thank you for sharingwhat that process looked like for you.
And we've had other guests on here,parents who've lost children to
homicide, talk about restorative justice.
As a survivor of gun violence, Iadvocated for the person that caused
(10:15):
me harm, and you as well as a victimof sexual assault and rape, also
advocated for just alternative process.
So when you actually talk to crimevictims and listen to our stories and you
ask us what would we like, it's not thetraditional way of thinking of being tough
on crime or just locking people up, right?
And as you mentioned, there arehundreds, if not thousands of survivors
(10:36):
out there that want a better system.
And for so many survivors, many ofus find the traditional criminal
legal system to be retraumatizing.
Especially for sexual assault survivors.
Pursuing a legal convictionoften ends up delaying or even
impeding a survivor's healing.
So looking back on your own experience,can you speak about, what felt
(11:00):
misaligned between the conventional legalprocess and your needs as a survivor?
So many things felt misaligned the momentI entered the criminal legal system.
I didn't know there were options beyondreport to the police or do nothing at all.
(11:20):
That's what I was told my optionswere, so my sole reason for reporting
was I don't wanna do nothing.
I went into that process and right awayI felt how clinical and cold it was.
At the time, I actually had writtendown the details of the sexual assault
because that's what Google said to do.
Like I was in such a state of crisisand shock afterwards, and I looked
(11:44):
up what do you do after you're raped?
And it said you shouldwrite down the details.
And I did that and I got to thepolice station and they asked me
what happened, and I opened my mouthto speak and no words came out.
I completely froze and I couldn'tgather my thoughts at all.
And so I said, can I justgive you this piece of paper?
(12:06):
Because like, I can'tspeak it out loud right now.
And the officer said, yeah, sure.
And he left the room with the paper.
He came back without the paper andsaid, that's now being held as evidence.
It's time for you totell us what happened.
And that was my first moment in thesystem that's supposedly like, my justice
(12:29):
righting wrongs and it was just likeslap in the face after slap in the face.
So right away I felt like that glimpseof betrayal and oh, is this for me?
Is this for my healing?
And that's one tiny example ofwhat continued for three years
of going through this process.
It's not even really about me.
(12:50):
I'm considered a witness in acrime done to the state, just
there to provide evidence.
So we talk about being survivor centered.
We can never be survivor centered whenthe setup erases us completely and
says it's the accused versus the state.
We're not even in the picture.
So how can we be centered?
A huge, huge piece thatwasn't there was consent.
(13:13):
When we're addressing someone's consentbeing violated and we're saying we're
doing a justice process for that.
For me, there's nothing moreobvious than making sure the process
is consensual, but it wasn't.
I was told, you reported three yearsago, and because you did that, you have
to get up on the stand at this trial,and if you refuse to answer a question
(13:36):
or you're unable to answer a question,you could actually be charged as non
cooperative So not only does that notmake space for trauma responses, but
it means that we don't have a rightto consent in a process where that's
what we're supposedly fighting for.
So not only was it re-traumatizing,but like I'll often go as far as
(13:58):
to say it's abusive or at the veryleast it's an abusive power dynamic.
I remember feeling in the preliminarytrial, like I was the one on
trial, my character was beingquestioned, my sexual history was
being brought up as if it was proof
I shouldn't be believed.
Like there's so much shaming andbreaking of a person's character.
(14:21):
And I tried to gaslight myself allthe way through it, going like, you
know, this is so painful for me, butI'm told it's what I'm supposed to do
to keep other women safe in the world.
That's what we're told.
And so I kept going through this painfulprocess, but eventually, as I learned
more and more about the system and prisonand recidivism, I started to really
(14:43):
question like, is it true that workingso hard to get my assailant locked
up is going to result in more safety?
Is it going to actuallybreak a cycle of harm?
As I gathered more understanding, Ieventually came to the conclusion of, no,
actually, like what's going to end thiscycle and make us more safe on a community
(15:06):
level, make me more safe, make this manlike a safer member of society too, it's
healing, it's therapeutic intervention.
It's a process that's actuallygonna support him in taking
accountability and making change.
It's not gonna be acquittal or aprison sentence that leaves him less
resourced and more traumatized, whichwe know makes people more dangerous.
(15:30):
One thing that really stood outthat you've mentioned is like
really focusing on healing.
The therapy that survivors need butalso those who have caused harm need.
You are from Canada, right?
Marlee.
And so you've mentioned youreported your crime three years ago.
In the United States, statesacross the country have a
(15:51):
victim compensation program.
Victim compensation programs existsin every state in the United States.
If you have been a victim of aviolent crime, you can get access
to support like counseling.
I'm curious, in Canada, does thecountry have a victim compensation
program that provides thattype of support to all victims
(16:11):
to access counseling and therapies?
It's different in different provinces.
But we have something where youcan fill out a form after you
report and then you can get access.
Like I got access to 10 therapy sessions.
But we also know that less than 6% ofpeople report, and the order of things
(16:33):
is like, you report and then you can fillout that form and then you can get access.
So that's where I'm like, whatif it was a little more broad?
Right?
Yeah.
You talked about many Survivors who don'tknow about their options, There's often
confusion or even fear around restorativejustice in cases of sexual violence.
(16:55):
What are some of the biggestmisconceptions you encounter
about restorative justice asit relates to sexual violence.
And what would you want survivorsto know about those options that
might be available for them?
It's hard to pick a few, but let me try.
It's interesting because I spoke at aconference once and there was a researcher
there and she had found that the biggestbarrier to restorative justice was
(17:20):
not funding, it was not legislation.
It was actually misperceptions aboutrestorative justice and of course,
misperceptions ripple out to shapefunding and legislation as well.
But it's these ideas people havethat, oh, is it too soft on crime?
Is it letting perpetrators off the hook?
(17:41):
Do survivors really want this?
What about public safety?
And so I'm very passionate aboutspeaking to those misperceptions.
One I touched on already, whichis, what about public safety?
I think we need to be really realabout the fact that maybe we've gotten
it wrong or maybe we've been told alie because punishment clearly isn't
(18:08):
keeping us safe, especially in America.
The rates of mass incarceration, thenumber of people who are incarcerated.
And then you look at the ratesof crime and we know, if this
really worked, America wouldbe one of the safest countries.
And so there's a lot we have to questionaround does punishment equal safety?
(18:29):
And often we find that punishmentactually escalates violence.
I think about Common Justice, and amazingorganization in New York and Danielle
Sered, the founder, she talks about how
there are four core drivers of violencefrom isolation to exposure to violence,
(18:52):
to unmet economic needs, to shame.
And when we focus solely on punishmentand incarceration as a way of responding
to harm, we put people in a potof those four factors, and then we
expect them to come out more safe.
But we're making it almost a guaranteethat they're gonna be more violent.
(19:13):
And we see that reflected inrates of recidivism and the fact
that rates of sexual assaulthaven't declined in over 20 years.
That's one piece.
And then the other one is thisidea that it's too soft on crime.
I think we do ourselves a reallybig disservice when we get
caught up in this debate of is it too softon crime or is it tough enough on crime?
(19:38):
Because those questionsdon't really mean anything.
And what I think would be a lot moremeaningful is to ask strategic questions.
Like instead of, is it too soft, asking,is it preventing future violence?
Is it catalyzing healing?
Is it preventing this personfrom doing this again?
(19:58):
Is it addressing root causes of violence?
Is it helping us create theworld we want to exist in?
So I just think redirecting thatconversation and being really honest about
the failures of the punitive approach,like I think that's really important.
I love that.
And Marlee, you wear many hats, right?
(20:20):
So you are an advocate, right?
You are an award-winningspeaker, you're an author.
You're also a somatic educator aswell, and you work with a lot of
Survivors all across the globe.
In your work with survivors, can you talkabout how trauma can live in the body
and how has that understanding shapedthe way you approach justice and healing?
(20:45):
We know trauma lives in the bodyand for those of us who have been
through it, we feel it in our breath.
We feel it in our posture,we feel it in our cells.
We feel it every single day.
And it shows up for us in different ways.
Different people respond.
Some of us lean towards fight,flight or freeze and this
shapes our every single day.
(21:07):
Our culture is cognitive andheady, and we're so focused on
what we're thinking all the time.
And while that's important, it's like wecan't just think our way through trauma.
I can conceptualize, yeah, I deserveto be angry or it wasn't my fault,
but it's a very different thing toactually feel the anger that's held
(21:28):
in my body or actually feel misplacedblame that I've been carrying for years.
I really feel like my biggest momentsof healing, and I see this for all the
survivors I've worked and connectedwith too, it's like in those moments
where we feel what we haven't beensafe enough to feel or process before,
(21:50):
and there's certain environmentsthat support us and accessing those
feelings, and also it's about learningand realizing that big feelings are
a sign of processing and healing.
Like we're so taught, go to work,keep a stoic face on, even tying
it back to the justice system.
I was taught going into court, don't betoo emotional, but don't be too stoic.
(22:13):
A single tear down your cheekis great, but we don't wanna
see you hyperventilating.
Then you don't seem as credible.
We're given these ideas, right?
And often it's in those bigmoments of release that we
actually find a lot of healing.
And so it's in the body.
And for me, how that applies to justiceand the journey I had is like the
(22:35):
moment I realized I needed to fightfor something else, meaning not court,
and not nothing at all, that happenedbecause I had a friend ask me, what would
meaningful justice look like to you?
And it was a question that urged meto turn toward my own body and like
(22:58):
ask myself, what would it look like?
And the answer was there.
The answer was accountability, getting tovoice the impact without censoring myself.
Getting to ask the questionsI've held for years.
Getting to show up in an authenticway where I can be angry or sad or
empowered or whatever I actually feel.
(23:18):
And that directed me toward what Iactually needed, and I think that's
such a huge part of our healing becauseif we're practicing self-consent, like
meaning we're asking ourselves about ourown boundaries and wants and needs, the
information for that is in our bodies.
(23:38):
So that's really where that somaticwisdom lies, is turning towards ourselves
and listening to the informationthat our bodies are giving us.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing the importanceof looking in ourselves, and
listening to our body, as well.
The Limits of Forgiveness.
What is that?
(23:58):
Tell us a little bit more about thisnew documentary about your life and
your work, The Limits of Forgiveness.
How did that come about?
It is a documentary that captures my storyof restorative justice for sexual assault,
includes a round table conversation withthree other incredible survivors who
are all members of the Survivors forJustice Reform Coalition, and presents
(24:23):
a wider call for us to make restorativejustice more known, more understood,
accessible, and it actually cameabout through doing a podcast.
I did a podcast interview where Ishared my story with Kelsey Darragh on
her podcast called Confidently Insecure.
It completely changed her mindabout how she talked about justice.
(24:47):
She told me afterward that she hadplanned to get on this call and debate
me and basically advocate for like atough on crime approach, but instead she
was like, it completely changed my mind.
And then a week later, sheemailed and she was like, I can't
stop thinking about your story.
I've been having dreamsabout making it into a film.
(25:08):
Is that weird?
Would you be open to it?
And same as you.
I'm so passionate about making sure
that there are these stories out there,so that representation shifts so that
people can reimagine justice and healingand understand that not all victims
(25:28):
of crime want the punitive outcome.
So really shift the narrative.
And to me, I was like, this soundslike an amazing way to do just that.
And so we did it and she did anincredible job of editing it together
and making the conversation accessible,which is what I always want.
I want it to be something people canunderstand because they felt something
(25:52):
when they watched it or they had a momentwhere they said, oh, I can relate to that.
So they did a great job.
So hopefully it'll be onsome kind of streamer soon.
That's awesome.
And how can people go watch the trailer.
Go to my Instagram, which is my name,so Marlee Liss, M-A-R-L-E-E-L-I-S-S.
(26:14):
You'll see it's pinned at the top.
The trailer's right there.
They did such a powerful job, and theother survivors who show up in the film
are really powerful and I just think that
restorative justice movements haveoften shied away from talking about
sexual violence because it's seenas too controversial and then sexual
(26:36):
violence movements have shied awayfrom restorative justice because
of tough on crime narratives andcarceral feminism, often comes from
white feminism and things like that.
And so this is really trying tobuild a bridge and saying, these two
movements need each other, becausewhat we've been doing isn't working.
(26:58):
Just a quick follow up to thatto dive deeper into like, some
of those intersections, right?
So how do you see restorative justiceintersecting with broader movements
like anti-carceral organizing,consent education or gender justice?
To me it goes hand in hand withall of these movements, really.
(27:19):
We look at the sheer numberof black and indigenous people
being incarcerated right now.
Restorative justice can play areally big role in disrupting mass
incarceration, disrupting racialdisparity in the school to prison pipeline
and ensuring people get resourced.
And then in terms of movements ofconsent, it's really about setting a
(27:44):
boundary of we're not okay with a approachto justice that crosses survivor's
boundaries and retraumatizes people.
So it's about weaving consentinto the way we do justice.
And then it also is about a systemsaware version of justice, because
the court process is soindividualistic, right?
(28:06):
It has that bad apple sentiment asif violence happens out of the blue.
But restorative and transformativejustice, like these are movements that
zoom out and get curious about the contextof what led this person to cause harm?
What systemic violence or oppressionor poverty or trauma have they been
(28:27):
through that's led them to this point?
How can we get those peopleresourced so that they can start to
heal and not cause violence again.
It's that community care piece.
It's getting people plugged into thecommunity rather than exiling them in
the hopes that is gonna solve things.
(28:48):
And you've provided a lot ofwisdom and a lot of guidance to
other survivors and advocates.
This podcast often reacheselected officials, attorneys
or prosecutors, right?
If a lawmaker or a prosecutor, werelistening to this conversation,
and thinking about the criminal legalsystem, what is one structural change
(29:11):
you believe could immediately make thejustice system less harmful for survivors?
Again, that piece aroundmisperceptions is so huge and my
full-time work now is like speakingand training people on this topic.
And still, the most common thingI hear from prosecutors, from
(29:32):
corrections, from sexual assaultnurses, the most common thing I
hear is, I didn't know this existed.
I didn't know restorative justicecould be used for sexual violence.
So there's an education piecethat's missing that really needs to
happen, and I really believe that ifevery single DA, prosecutor, sexual
(29:55):
assault nurse, whoever is educatedon restorative justice in a way that
includes survivor led storytelling,I really believe we'll start to see
funding, legislation and access shift.
There are many provinces in Canadaand states as well that have
(30:15):
basically moratoriums that makerestorative justice inaccessible
for a sexual violence survivor.
So for example, where I am in Toronto,our province has a Crown Policy D4.
It says that restorative justice shouldnot be used for sexual violence ever.
(30:37):
That was actually used to penalizethe prosecutor who helped my
restorative justice outcome happen.
People who are trying to be victimcentered, trauma informed, open
to restorative, transformativejustice options in the system are
being discouraged and penalized.
(30:57):
We'd like to see those policies amendedso that restorative justice processes are
available to the survivors who want them.
Another example is in the CanadianVictim Bill of Rights, it says,
victims have a right to be informedof restorative justice on request.
So that means, in order to get informationabout it, we have to request it first.
(31:20):
But if we don't know about it,how are we supposed to request it?
Right?
Especially when we're inour moments of crisis.
We need to see that shift, so we'reinformed about it no matter what,
and then we're giving access to it,
if we want it.
You know, a lot of our criminallegal policies, even the victim
compensation program here in the States,
(31:41):
in order for you to be eligible, yougotta meet these time limits, right?
You gotta file a report within 72 hours.
In some states, you got a year toapply, or you have to fully cooperate
with law enforcement, right?
It's all of these things that are oftentied to the justice system often does
more harm, especially to us as a survivor.
(32:03):
I'm curious to hear from you, if youwere to imagine a completely different
system than our current legal system,one that truly centers survivors
and values repair over retribution.
From your perspective, Marlee, whatwould that different system look like?
(32:24):
There would be many justiceoptions because we know that
victims are not a monolith.
We know that perpetratorsare also not a monolith.
I really believe in aneeds-based approach to justice.
When a survivor comes forward, we getcurious about what are their needs.
The most commonly reported victimneeds tend to be accountability,
(32:48):
reassurance the person won't do thisagain, getting to ask the questions
that we have, getting some answers.
So, as victims share their needs, thesystem would be really honest about
which justice pathway is most compatiblewith those needs, and then would
connect the person with that approach.
(33:10):
So let's say in my case, if we couldgo back in time and change it, I
would be sitting in front of thesexual assault nurse who was the
first service provider that I saw.
And instead of her saying, at this pointyou can either report to the police or go
home, instead, we would take a step back.
She would get curious aboutwhat I actually needed.
(33:33):
She would get a sense of whatwould truly be healing for me,
and then provide me with all thejustice options available to me.
So that would include restorativejustice, and then I would be able to
choose the thing that works for me.
So again, that's thatinformed consent piece.
It's about being transparent, notwithholding information, making sure
(33:55):
people know, because I really do imagineif that had happened, I would've saved
myself and this man from three yearsof dehumanization and revictimization
in court and instead, we would'vegone to a restorative justice process.
So I would love to see informed consent,letting survivors know about their justice
(34:17):
options and taking that needs-basedapproach to be honest about which pathway
is most compatible with their needs.
Well said.
And for our survivors that arelistening out there, we would
love to hear from you all.
What would justice look like for you all?
What does healing look like for you all?
What would a different system look like?
(34:39):
So we would love to hear from youall when we drop this episode.
Please engage with us in the comments.
Marlee, this has been anincredible conversation.
I'm feeling a deep sense of gratitude foryour courage, your vision, your leadership
that you bring to this movement.
(35:00):
Your journey, your story, your advocacy.
It reminds us that survivors are not justpeople who have experienced harm, right?
We are authors, we aretrainers, we are leaders, we're
innovators, we're advocates.
We're also pushing for a new systemcentered on listening to survivors
(35:21):
and also focus on healing and justice.
Your story challenges us, right?
It challenges the system, to help usrethink what justice can look like.
For survivors like us, we've been toldto follow that one narrow path, right?
But as we've heard from many of ourguests on the podcast, that real healing
(35:45):
could also be rooted in accountability,
healing, repair, transformation,and also options, right?
Like restorative justice, as well.
So Marlee, thank you somuch for joining us today.
I'm excited about the workthat the Survivors for Justice
Reform Coalition is doing.
Y'all all across the world.
(36:06):
Thank you so much for sharing yourstory, your wisdom, and for your
commitment to expanding what justicecan be for survivors everywhere.
Before we wrap up, Marlee, we wouldlove for you to share where can people
follow you on social media, the website.
You're an author, you'rean award-winning speaker.
You have trainingcurriculums, you got courses.
(36:28):
How people can get in touch with you?
Thank you so much.
Right back at you.
You're doing incredible,incredible things in the world.
Yeah, so a few places.
My Instagram.
My TikTok.
My LinkedIn.
My website.
All of those are just my name.
Marlee Liss, M-A-R-L-E-E-L-I-S-S.
(36:48):
I do post about this stuff a lot, sodefinitely follow on Instagram and
you'll find some resources there.
I do have a free restorativejustice resource guide.
Organizations, books, podcasts,documentaries on this topic.
You can go to MarleeLiss.com/resource.
(37:09):
If you wanna learn more about thecoalition or even get involved,
it's Survivors 4 Justice Reform.
That's our Instagram and it's alsoour website, and you can join by
filling out the form at our website.
Hopefully I'll have exciting news aboutthe documentary soon and I'll also have my
(37:31):
book, my memoir on Reimagining Justice iscoming out in about a year, so you never
know when people are listening to this.
Maybe it's already out there, butmake sure you check it out 'cause
it's been a five year labor of loveand I'm very excited to share it.
Oh, and I'm also a speaker, andI do this work for campuses, for
conferences, for organizations,workplaces around the globe, and I
(37:56):
really love sharing these messages ofhealing trauma, reimagining justice.
You can also find information about thaton my website MarleeLiss.com/speaking.
I'd love to collaborate, so pleasereach out and we can dream something up.
Thank you so much Marlee.
Thank you to all of our listeners.
(38:17):
Until next time, keep lifting your voice.
Keep supporting one another,and keep believing in the power
of healing and transformation.
This is Crime Survivors Speak.
I'm your host, Aswad Thomas.
When Survivors Speak, change happens.
Hello, welcome to the CrimeSurvivor Speak podcast.
My name is Aswad Thomas.
I'm the National Directorof Crime Survivor Speak.
We are a national network ofover 200,000 crime victims and
survivors all across the country.
If you haven't, subscribe to stayup to date on the latest episodes.
(00:23):
You can do that on YouTube,
Apple Podcasts and Spotify, or youcan go to our website at www.cssj.org.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation to speak to another
amazing leader in our survivor movement.
Marlee Liss is a survivor.
(00:43):
She's an award-winning speaker.
She's a somatic educator and also thefounder of Survivors for Justice Reform,
which is a global survivor led coalition,
advocating for restorative andtransformative approaches to justice.
After becoming one of the first sexualassault survivors in North America to have
(01:05):
her criminal case resolved through a courtmandated restorative justice process,
Marlee has dedicated her work to expandingsurvivor voices, expanding survivor agency
and healing within the justice systems.
Marlee is a leading voice inreimagining what accountability,
repair, and true justice can looklike for survivors of sexual violence.
(01:28):
Marlee, welcome to the CrimeSurvivors Speak podcast.
Thank you so much for having me on and forall the incredible work you've been doing.
I'm excited, over these past twoyears, how we've been able to connect
and also we've got a lot of ideasof how we will partner together.
Thank you for doing your amazingwork all across the world.
Marlee, I would love to start by talkingabout Survivors for Justice Reform.
(01:52):
This is a coalition, an organizationyou founded which has grown into a
global coalition all across the world.
I would love to hear from you the mostpowerful things that you've learned
from survivors in the Survivors forJustice Reform Coalition community.
Yeah, so many things.
I think it's just really affirmed for mehow powerful survivor stories actually
(02:18):
are, real survivor stories, because Ithink about Netflix and true crime dramas.
And I see like the narrativesbeing pushed there.
And when we watch those shows,we see all of these survivors,
pushing for the courtroom,pushing for long prison sentences.
And our culture kind of accepts, oh,okay, that must be what survivors want.
(02:40):
But then as I've seen and as your workhas shown as well, when we actually
turn toward survivors, and ask peoplewhat they need after trauma, after
violence or loss, we hear again andagain, like people want healing.
They want the violence to stop.
They want reassurance thatthis harm won't happen again.
(03:01):
And for me, the coalition forming it wasvery much about centering those stories,
amplifying those stories, and I think itsolidified for me how much power there
is when we actually listen to survivors.
And there's so many versions of whysomeone is advocating for restorative and
(03:23):
transformative justice, for alternativesto that punitive approach and the
reasons people have of why they'readvocating is just so powerful, right?
Like people who have been failedby the criminal legal system.
People who never felt safegoing to law enforcement.
People who always wanted healingrather than just punishment.
(03:43):
These stories come out andthey hold so much power.
So I think for me, that'swhat really amazes me every
single day is those stories.
As survivors, often we don't get thoseopportunities to share our stories.
We don't get those opportunities toeven weigh in on what justice looks
like and what we would have wanted.
(04:04):
And Marlee, you have one of themost incredible, powerful stories
that I've heard in a very long time.
And your story and your work has becomea catalyst for deeper conversations
across so many communities.
Would love to hear from you,
was there a moment when you realizedyour story wasn't just personal,
(04:29):
but that it had the power to changehow people think about justice?
So for me, like for anyonewho hasn't heard it before,
I experienced sexual assault.
I experienced rape, and I started goingthrough the court process and I didn't
know there was any other options.
As I was going through thisprocess, I felt like for three years
(04:51):
everyone was being more traumatized.
I felt like I was being dehumanized.
The person who harmed me, I waslike, I don't see how this is gonna
make him a safer member of society.
And so eventually I started
researching other options and finallylearned about restorative justice and
(05:11):
started fighting for that outcome and wasable to get a prosecutor to agree to it.
And so that meant my assailant didseven months of extensive therapy and
then we eventually met in this circleprocess and restorative justice.
The circle process that we did hasroots in indigenous communities.
(05:32):
It was incredible.
Like in comparison to the court process,it was night and day like where court
was traumatic and suffocating and mademe feel smaller than a mouse, the circle
was actually healing and empowering andit clicked for me during the circle.
Wow, this is so much bigger than myself.
(05:53):
I think the reason that happened wasbecause we were able to talk about
harm in context, like the court kindof zooms in and acts as if violence
comes out of the blue and people causeviolence, just 'cause they're bad apples.
But in this circle, we're actually ableto talk about, why did this happen?
What did my assailant learnin his life that led him to
(06:15):
justify this degree of violence?
And that opened the door for biggerconversations like rape culture and the
ways that masculinity can be taught withinpatriarchy that's harmful to everyone.
And we started talking about consent andpower dynamics, and I was just so struck.
This is healing.
(06:36):
Yes, for me as the survivor who wentthrough this, but it also ripples
out for both of us to impact everyonein our communities and in our lives.
That was one really big moment.
Another one I'll name is when I
first went public with my story.
And for me, like the impetusfor doing that was really people
(06:56):
deserve to know this option exists.
I wanna make sure they know about it.
But I didn't expect the flood ofmessages I got from survivors of crime
and especially of sexual violence.
Thousands and thousands ofpeople saying, I wish I had
known about restorative justice.
I wish I had known abouttransformative justice.
(07:18):
I wish I knew there was an option beyondreport to the police or do nothing.
That made it so clear to me like, oh,this is part of a much, much larger
conversation and just seeing howmany people are wanting the violence
to stop, are wanting processes thatactually like eradicate harm instead
(07:42):
of just transferring it from thevictim back to the perpetrator.
And it, it made me aware, this is partof a larger movement that I was really
just learning about as I was going.
So those are two momentsthat stand out for sure.
Two powerful moments.
Thinking about that process for youand your family, would love to hear,
(08:02):
what does support look like for you?
Good question.
It's definitely looks likea lot of different things.
A lot of like trial and error,forgetting I need support and
then remembering I need support.
But it's definitely lookedlike therapy, community care,
reading and watching other survivorstories, helping to validate our own.
(08:26):
What I feel so privileged to haveexperienced by having restorative
justice is like the justice processbecame a pillar of support for me.
And it's usually the opposite.
In our punitive context where we'vebeen taught to see justice as courtrooms
and gavels and prison sentences.
(08:46):
Usually when Survivors are navigatingthat, it's so painful that we
have to seek outside support tojust heal from courtroom trauma.
But for me it was the opposite.
Finally, like after years of thatcourt process, it was like I finally
got to have a justice process thatwas actually catalyzing my healing
and I felt that every step of the way.
(09:08):
We use language like trauma informed,but it was so humane and caring.
Every single detail was so intentional.
Leading up to the circle itself,
we'd have one-to-one meetingswith the facilitators and they'd
ask, how can we make you feeleven 1% more safe in the room?
What snacks do you wantin the room that day?
(09:29):
What's a symbol you can use toindicate that you wanna break?
What do you really need after trauma andhow can we support in making that happen?
The justice process became a pillar ofsupport, which is a big piece of what I
advocate for is, we shouldn't any of usbe complacent with a reality in which
justice is an obstacle to our healing.
(09:51):
It should be the opposite.
It should be something we canlean into to support our healing.
And that's the system thatwe are trying to build.
Right?
And so, Marlee thank you for sharingwhat that process looked like for you.
And we've had other guests on here,parents who've lost children to
homicide, talk about restorative justice.
As a survivor of gun violence, Iadvocated for the person that caused
(10:15):
me harm, and you as well as a victimof sexual assault and rape, also
advocated for just alternative process.
So when you actually talk to crimevictims and listen to our stories and you
ask us what would we like, it's not thetraditional way of thinking of being tough
on crime or just locking people up, right?
And as you mentioned, there arehundreds, if not thousands of survivors
(10:36):
out there that want a better system.
And for so many survivors, many ofus find the traditional criminal
legal system to be retraumatizing.
Especially for sexual assault survivors.
Pursuing a legal convictionoften ends up delaying or even
impeding a survivor's healing.
So looking back on your own experience,can you speak about, what felt
(11:00):
misaligned between the conventional legalprocess and your needs as a survivor?
So many things felt misaligned the momentI entered the criminal legal system.
I didn't know there were options beyondreport to the police or do nothing at all.
(11:20):
That's what I was told my optionswere, so my sole reason for reporting
was I don't wanna do nothing.
I went into that process and right awayI felt how clinical and cold it was.
At the time, I actually had writtendown the details of the sexual assault
because that's what Google said to do.
Like I was in such a state of crisisand shock afterwards, and I looked
(11:44):
up what do you do after you're raped?
And it said you shouldwrite down the details.
And I did that and I got to thepolice station and they asked me
what happened, and I opened my mouthto speak and no words came out.
I completely froze and I couldn'tgather my thoughts at all.
And so I said, can I justgive you this piece of paper?
(12:06):
Because like, I can'tspeak it out loud right now.
And the officer said, yeah, sure.
And he left the room with the paper.
He came back without the paper andsaid, that's now being held as evidence.
It's time for you totell us what happened.
And that was my first moment in thesystem that's supposedly like, my justice
(12:29):
righting wrongs and it was just likeslap in the face after slap in the face.
So right away I felt like that glimpseof betrayal and oh, is this for me?
Is this for my healing?
And that's one tiny example ofwhat continued for three years
of going through this process.
It's not even really about me.
(12:50):
I'm considered a witness in acrime done to the state, just
there to provide evidence.
So we talk about being survivor centered.
We can never be survivor centered whenthe setup erases us completely and
says it's the accused versus the state.
We're not even in the picture.
So how can we be centered?
A huge, huge piece thatwasn't there was consent.
(13:13):
When we're addressing someone's consentbeing violated and we're saying we're
doing a justice process for that.
For me, there's nothing moreobvious than making sure the process
is consensual, but it wasn't.
I was told, you reported three yearsago, and because you did that, you have
to get up on the stand at this trial,and if you refuse to answer a question
(13:36):
or you're unable to answer a question,you could actually be charged as non
cooperative So not only does that notmake space for trauma responses, but
it means that we don't have a rightto consent in a process where that's
what we're supposedly fighting for.
So not only was it re-traumatizing,but like I'll often go as far as
(13:58):
to say it's abusive or at the veryleast it's an abusive power dynamic.
I remember feeling in the preliminarytrial, like I was the one on
trial, my character was beingquestioned, my sexual history was
being brought up as if it was proof
I shouldn't be believed.
Like there's so much shaming andbreaking of a person's character.
(14:21):
And I tried to gaslight myself allthe way through it, going like, you
know, this is so painful for me, butI'm told it's what I'm supposed to do
to keep other women safe in the world.
That's what we're told.
And so I kept going through this painfulprocess, but eventually, as I learned
more and more about the system and prisonand recidivism, I started to really
(14:43):
question like, is it true that workingso hard to get my assailant locked
up is going to result in more safety?
Is it going to actuallybreak a cycle of harm?
As I gathered more understanding, Ieventually came to the conclusion of, no,
actually, like what's going to end thiscycle and make us more safe on a community
(15:06):
level, make me more safe, make this manlike a safer member of society too, it's
healing, it's therapeutic intervention.
It's a process that's actuallygonna support him in taking
accountability and making change.
It's not gonna be acquittal or aprison sentence that leaves him less
resourced and more traumatized, whichwe know makes people more dangerous.
(15:30):
One thing that really stood outthat you've mentioned is like
really focusing on healing.
The therapy that survivors need butalso those who have caused harm need.
You are from Canada, right?
Marlee.
And so you've mentioned youreported your crime three years ago.
In the United States, statesacross the country have a
(15:51):
victim compensation program.
Victim compensation programs existsin every state in the United States.
If you have been a victim of aviolent crime, you can get access
to support like counseling.
I'm curious, in Canada, does thecountry have a victim compensation
program that provides thattype of support to all victims
(16:11):
to access counseling and therapies?
It's different in different provinces.
But we have something where youcan fill out a form after you
report and then you can get access.
Like I got access to 10 therapy sessions.
But we also know that less than 6% ofpeople report, and the order of things
(16:33):
is like, you report and then you can fillout that form and then you can get access.
So that's where I'm like, whatif it was a little more broad?
Right?
Yeah.
You talked about many Survivors who don'tknow about their options, There's often
confusion or even fear around restorativejustice in cases of sexual violence.
(16:55):
What are some of the biggestmisconceptions you encounter
about restorative justice asit relates to sexual violence.
And what would you want survivorsto know about those options that
might be available for them?
It's hard to pick a few, but let me try.
It's interesting because I spoke at aconference once and there was a researcher
there and she had found that the biggestbarrier to restorative justice was
(17:20):
not funding, it was not legislation.
It was actually misperceptions aboutrestorative justice and of course,
misperceptions ripple out to shapefunding and legislation as well.
But it's these ideas people havethat, oh, is it too soft on crime?
Is it letting perpetrators off the hook?
(17:41):
Do survivors really want this?
What about public safety?
And so I'm very passionate aboutspeaking to those misperceptions.
One I touched on already, whichis, what about public safety?
I think we need to be really realabout the fact that maybe we've gotten
it wrong or maybe we've been told alie because punishment clearly isn't
(18:08):
keeping us safe, especially in America.
The rates of mass incarceration, thenumber of people who are incarcerated.
And then you look at the ratesof crime and we know, if this
really worked, America wouldbe one of the safest countries.
And so there's a lot we have to questionaround does punishment equal safety?
(18:29):
And often we find that punishmentactually escalates violence.
I think about Common Justice, and amazingorganization in New York and Danielle
Sered, the founder, she talks about how
there are four core drivers of violencefrom isolation to exposure to violence,
(18:52):
to unmet economic needs, to shame.
And when we focus solely on punishmentand incarceration as a way of responding
to harm, we put people in a potof those four factors, and then we
expect them to come out more safe.
But we're making it almost a guaranteethat they're gonna be more violent.
(19:13):
And we see that reflected inrates of recidivism and the fact
that rates of sexual assaulthaven't declined in over 20 years.
That's one piece.
And then the other one is thisidea that it's too soft on crime.
I think we do ourselves a reallybig disservice when we get
caught up in this debate of is it too softon crime or is it tough enough on crime?
(19:38):
Because those questionsdon't really mean anything.
And what I think would be a lot moremeaningful is to ask strategic questions.
Like instead of, is it too soft, asking,is it preventing future violence?
Is it catalyzing healing?
Is it preventing this personfrom doing this again?
(19:58):
Is it addressing root causes of violence?
Is it helping us create theworld we want to exist in?
So I just think redirecting thatconversation and being really honest about
the failures of the punitive approach,like I think that's really important.
I love that.
And Marlee, you wear many hats, right?
(20:20):
So you are an advocate, right?
You are an award-winningspeaker, you're an author.
You're also a somatic educator aswell, and you work with a lot of
Survivors all across the globe.
In your work with survivors, can you talkabout how trauma can live in the body
and how has that understanding shapedthe way you approach justice and healing?
(20:45):
We know trauma lives in the bodyand for those of us who have been
through it, we feel it in our breath.
We feel it in our posture,we feel it in our cells.
We feel it every single day.
And it shows up for us in different ways.
Different people respond.
Some of us lean towards fight,flight or freeze and this
shapes our every single day.
(21:07):
Our culture is cognitive andheady, and we're so focused on
what we're thinking all the time.
And while that's important, it's like wecan't just think our way through trauma.
I can conceptualize, yeah, I deserveto be angry or it wasn't my fault,
but it's a very different thing toactually feel the anger that's held
(21:28):
in my body or actually feel misplacedblame that I've been carrying for years.
I really feel like my biggest momentsof healing, and I see this for all the
survivors I've worked and connectedwith too, it's like in those moments
where we feel what we haven't beensafe enough to feel or process before,
(21:50):
and there's certain environmentsthat support us and accessing those
feelings, and also it's about learningand realizing that big feelings are
a sign of processing and healing.
Like we're so taught, go to work,keep a stoic face on, even tying
it back to the justice system.
I was taught going into court, don't betoo emotional, but don't be too stoic.
(22:13):
A single tear down your cheekis great, but we don't wanna
see you hyperventilating.
Then you don't seem as credible.
We're given these ideas, right?
And often it's in those bigmoments of release that we
actually find a lot of healing.
And so it's in the body.
And for me, how that applies to justiceand the journey I had is like the
(22:35):
moment I realized I needed to fightfor something else, meaning not court,
and not nothing at all, that happenedbecause I had a friend ask me, what would
meaningful justice look like to you?
And it was a question that urged meto turn toward my own body and like
(22:58):
ask myself, what would it look like?
And the answer was there.
The answer was accountability, getting tovoice the impact without censoring myself.
Getting to ask the questionsI've held for years.
Getting to show up in an authenticway where I can be angry or sad or
empowered or whatever I actually feel.
(23:18):
And that directed me toward what Iactually needed, and I think that's
such a huge part of our healing becauseif we're practicing self-consent, like
meaning we're asking ourselves about ourown boundaries and wants and needs, the
information for that is in our bodies.
(23:38):
So that's really where that somaticwisdom lies, is turning towards ourselves
and listening to the informationthat our bodies are giving us.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing the importanceof looking in ourselves, and
listening to our body, as well.
The Limits of Forgiveness.
What is that?
(23:58):
Tell us a little bit more about thisnew documentary about your life and
your work, The Limits of Forgiveness.
How did that come about?
It is a documentary that captures my storyof restorative justice for sexual assault,
includes a round table conversation withthree other incredible survivors who
are all members of the Survivors forJustice Reform Coalition, and presents
(24:23):
a wider call for us to make restorativejustice more known, more understood,
accessible, and it actually cameabout through doing a podcast.
I did a podcast interview where Ishared my story with Kelsey Darragh on
her podcast called Confidently Insecure.
It completely changed her mindabout how she talked about justice.
(24:47):
She told me afterward that she hadplanned to get on this call and debate
me and basically advocate for like atough on crime approach, but instead she
was like, it completely changed my mind.
And then a week later, sheemailed and she was like, I can't
stop thinking about your story.
I've been having dreamsabout making it into a film.
(25:08):
Is that weird?
Would you be open to it?
And same as you.
I'm so passionate about making sure
that there are these stories out there,so that representation shifts so that
people can reimagine justice and healingand understand that not all victims
(25:28):
of crime want the punitive outcome.
So really shift the narrative.
And to me, I was like, this soundslike an amazing way to do just that.
And so we did it and she did anincredible job of editing it together
and making the conversation accessible,which is what I always want.
I want it to be something people canunderstand because they felt something
(25:52):
when they watched it or they had a momentwhere they said, oh, I can relate to that.
So they did a great job.
So hopefully it'll be onsome kind of streamer soon.
That's awesome.
And how can people go watch the trailer.
Go to my Instagram, which is my name,so Marlee Liss, M-A-R-L-E-E-L-I-S-S.
(26:14):
You'll see it's pinned at the top.
The trailer's right there.
They did such a powerful job, and theother survivors who show up in the film
are really powerful and I just think that
restorative justice movements haveoften shied away from talking about
sexual violence because it's seenas too controversial and then sexual
(26:36):
violence movements have shied awayfrom restorative justice because
of tough on crime narratives andcarceral feminism, often comes from
white feminism and things like that.
And so this is really trying tobuild a bridge and saying, these two
movements need each other, becausewhat we've been doing isn't working.
(26:58):
Just a quick follow up to thatto dive deeper into like, some
of those intersections, right?
So how do you see restorative justiceintersecting with broader movements
like anti-carceral organizing,consent education or gender justice?
To me it goes hand in hand withall of these movements, really.
(27:19):
We look at the sheer numberof black and indigenous people
being incarcerated right now.
Restorative justice can play areally big role in disrupting mass
incarceration, disrupting racialdisparity in the school to prison pipeline
and ensuring people get resourced.
And then in terms of movements ofconsent, it's really about setting a
(27:44):
boundary of we're not okay with a approachto justice that crosses survivor's
boundaries and retraumatizes people.
So it's about weaving consentinto the way we do justice.
And then it also is about a systemsaware version of justice, because
the court process is soindividualistic, right?
(28:06):
It has that bad apple sentiment asif violence happens out of the blue.
But restorative and transformativejustice, like these are movements that
zoom out and get curious about the contextof what led this person to cause harm?
What systemic violence or oppressionor poverty or trauma have they been
(28:27):
through that's led them to this point?
How can we get those peopleresourced so that they can start to
heal and not cause violence again.
It's that community care piece.
It's getting people plugged into thecommunity rather than exiling them in
the hopes that is gonna solve things.
(28:48):
And you've provided a lot ofwisdom and a lot of guidance to
other survivors and advocates.
This podcast often reacheselected officials, attorneys
or prosecutors, right?
If a lawmaker or a prosecutor, werelistening to this conversation,
and thinking about the criminal legalsystem, what is one structural change
(29:11):
you believe could immediately make thejustice system less harmful for survivors?
Again, that piece aroundmisperceptions is so huge and my
full-time work now is like speakingand training people on this topic.
And still, the most common thingI hear from prosecutors, from
(29:32):
corrections, from sexual assaultnurses, the most common thing I
hear is, I didn't know this existed.
I didn't know restorative justicecould be used for sexual violence.
So there's an education piecethat's missing that really needs to
happen, and I really believe that ifevery single DA, prosecutor, sexual
(29:55):
assault nurse, whoever is educatedon restorative justice in a way that
includes survivor led storytelling,I really believe we'll start to see
funding, legislation and access shift.
There are many provinces in Canadaand states as well that have
(30:15):
basically moratoriums that makerestorative justice inaccessible
for a sexual violence survivor.
So for example, where I am in Toronto,our province has a Crown Policy D4.
It says that restorative justice shouldnot be used for sexual violence ever.
(30:37):
That was actually used to penalizethe prosecutor who helped my
restorative justice outcome happen.
People who are trying to be victimcentered, trauma informed, open
to restorative, transformativejustice options in the system are
being discouraged and penalized.
(30:57):
We'd like to see those policies amendedso that restorative justice processes are
available to the survivors who want them.
Another example is in the CanadianVictim Bill of Rights, it says,
victims have a right to be informedof restorative justice on request.
So that means, in order to get informationabout it, we have to request it first.
(31:20):
But if we don't know about it,how are we supposed to request it?
Right?
Especially when we're inour moments of crisis.
We need to see that shift, so we'reinformed about it no matter what,
and then we're giving access to it,
if we want it.
You know, a lot of our criminallegal policies, even the victim
compensation program here in the States,
(31:41):
in order for you to be eligible, yougotta meet these time limits, right?
You gotta file a report within 72 hours.
In some states, you got a year toapply, or you have to fully cooperate
with law enforcement, right?
It's all of these things that are oftentied to the justice system often does
more harm, especially to us as a survivor.
(32:03):
I'm curious to hear from you, if youwere to imagine a completely different
system than our current legal system,one that truly centers survivors
and values repair over retribution.
From your perspective, Marlee, whatwould that different system look like?
(32:24):
There would be many justiceoptions because we know that
victims are not a monolith.
We know that perpetratorsare also not a monolith.
I really believe in aneeds-based approach to justice.
When a survivor comes forward, we getcurious about what are their needs.
The most commonly reported victimneeds tend to be accountability,
(32:48):
reassurance the person won't do thisagain, getting to ask the questions
that we have, getting some answers.
So, as victims share their needs, thesystem would be really honest about
which justice pathway is most compatiblewith those needs, and then would
connect the person with that approach.
(33:10):
So let's say in my case, if we couldgo back in time and change it, I
would be sitting in front of thesexual assault nurse who was the
first service provider that I saw.
And instead of her saying, at this pointyou can either report to the police or go
home, instead, we would take a step back.
She would get curious aboutwhat I actually needed.
(33:33):
She would get a sense of whatwould truly be healing for me,
and then provide me with all thejustice options available to me.
So that would include restorativejustice, and then I would be able to
choose the thing that works for me.
So again, that's thatinformed consent piece.
It's about being transparent, notwithholding information, making sure
(33:55):
people know, because I really do imagineif that had happened, I would've saved
myself and this man from three yearsof dehumanization and revictimization
in court and instead, we would'vegone to a restorative justice process.
So I would love to see informed consent,letting survivors know about their justice
(34:17):
options and taking that needs-basedapproach to be honest about which pathway
is most compatible with their needs.
Well said.
And for our survivors that arelistening out there, we would
love to hear from you all.
What would justice look like for you all?
What does healing look like for you all?
What would a different system look like?
(34:39):
So we would love to hear from youall when we drop this episode.
Please engage with us in the comments.
Marlee, this has been anincredible conversation.
I'm feeling a deep sense of gratitude foryour courage, your vision, your leadership
that you bring to this movement.
(35:00):
Your journey, your story, your advocacy.
It reminds us that survivors are not justpeople who have experienced harm, right?
We are authors, we aretrainers, we are leaders, we're
innovators, we're advocates.
We're also pushing for a new systemcentered on listening to survivors
(35:21):
and also focus on healing and justice.
Your story challenges us, right?
It challenges the system, to help usrethink what justice can look like.
For survivors like us, we've been toldto follow that one narrow path, right?
But as we've heard from many of ourguests on the podcast, that real healing
(35:45):
could also be rooted in accountability,
healing, repair, transformation,and also options, right?
Like restorative justice, as well.
So Marlee, thank you somuch for joining us today.
I'm excited about the workthat the Survivors for Justice
Reform Coalition is doing.
Y'all all across the world.
(36:06):
Thank you so much for sharing yourstory, your wisdom, and for your
commitment to expanding what justicecan be for survivors everywhere.
Before we wrap up, Marlee, we wouldlove for you to share where can people
follow you on social media, the website.
You're an author, you'rean award-winning speaker.
You have trainingcurriculums, you got courses.
(36:28):
How people can get in touch with you?
Thank you so much.
Right back at you.
You're doing incredible,incredible things in the world.
Yeah, so a few places.
My Instagram.
My TikTok.
My LinkedIn.
My website.
All of those are just my name.
Marlee Liss, M-A-R-L-E-E-L-I-S-S.
(36:48):
I do post about this stuff a lot, sodefinitely follow on Instagram and
you'll find some resources there.
I do have a free restorativejustice resource guide.
Organizations, books, podcasts,documentaries on this topic.
You can go to MarleeLiss.com/resource.
(37:09):
If you wanna learn more about thecoalition or even get involved,
it's Survivors 4 Justice Reform.
That's our Instagram and it's alsoour website, and you can join by
filling out the form at our website.
Hopefully I'll have exciting news aboutthe documentary soon and I'll also have my
(37:31):
book, my memoir on Reimagining Justice iscoming out in about a year, so you never
know when people are listening to this.
Maybe it's already out there, butmake sure you check it out 'cause
it's been a five year labor of loveand I'm very excited to share it.
Oh, and I'm also a speaker, andI do this work for campuses, for
conferences, for organizations,workplaces around the globe, and I
(37:56):
really love sharing these messages ofhealing trauma, reimagining justice.
You can also find information about thaton my website MarleeLiss.com/speaking.
I'd love to collaborate, so pleasereach out and we can dream something up.
Thank you so much Marlee.
Thank you to all of our listeners.
(38:17):
Until next time, keep lifting your voice.
Keep supporting one another,and keep believing in the power
of healing and transformation.
This is Crime Survivors Speak.
I'm your host, Aswad Thomas.
When Survivors Speak, change happens.
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