September 17, 2025 • 42 mins
Infertility is never just a medical diagnosis, it’s a journey of grief, trauma, resilience, and hope. In this episode of Cry It Out Loud! by Chasing the Rainbows, we sit down with Dr. Mark Trolice, reproductive endocrinologist, owner of The IVF Center in Florida, and most importantly, a father who knows firsthand the heartbreak and healing of infertility.
From IVF and IUI treatments to the emotional toll of repeated setbacks, Dr. Trolice opens up about his own path to parenthood. The struggles, the breakthroughs, and how his story as a patient transformed the way he cares for others as a physician.
Together, we explore:
The emotional and financial realities of IVF and infertility treatments
How trauma and grief shape the infertility journey
The importance of compassion in medicine
Options for building a family, including adoption
Why breaking the silence around infertility and loss matters for every family
This intimate conversation is a reminder that behind every statistic is a family fighting for hope.
✨ Whether you’re navigating infertility yourself, supporting a loved one, or working in women’s health, this episode will inspire and connect you.
👉 Want to help families walking through infertility, miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss? Visit BabyLossAwareness.org to learn how you can get involved by volunteering, donating, or honoring a baby gone too soon. Together, we can break the silence and bring hope to grieving parents. Every Baby Loss Matters.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
host Bernice Quisenberry. Today's episode is especially
powerful. We're honored to sit down with
(00:29):
Doctor Mark Trellis, or also known as Doctor TA, leading
reproductive endocrinologist, founder of the IVF Center, and a
man who has walked the very samepath he now guides so many
through. In this heartfelt conversation,
Doctor T shares his own IVF journey to parenthood, the
challenges, the resilience, and the hope that carried him
(00:51):
forward. From his professional expertise
to his deeply personal story, T opens up about what it means to
live through infertility and howthose experiences shaped his
life as both a doctor and a dad.Let's go through some of his
credentials. He's a professor at the UCF
College of Medicine, responsiblefor the medical education of
(01:12):
OBGYN residents and medical students.
He is also associate program director of the new UCFHCA
Florida Healthcare Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility
Fellowship program. He is a medical local journal
editor and authored research studies with publications and
many leading medical journals and textbooks, and he lectures
(01:35):
at numerous physician conferences.
His latest book is The Infertility Doctor's Guide to
Overcoming Infertility. Wow.
This is a story of science, strength, and the humanity at
the heart of every family's journey.
Welcome, Doctor T. Oh goodness, I was so kind.
Thank you so much and hello to everybody listening today.
(01:57):
And I want to 1st congratulate you.
I just learned about your foundation.
I want to congratulate you. What an endeavor, how many, how
many lives you are touching withwith your empathy, supporting
and I just hope that we can contribute to their education,
empowerment and answer questionsthat they may have.
(02:18):
Thank you, Doctor T this means the world to have you on and
just, you know, hearing all about it.
And you know, we're just so honored and many of our
listeners, you know, know you asthe founder of the IVF Center
and leader in reproductive medicine as you are.
But what some may not know is that passion for this work comes
from your own very personal place.
(02:39):
And I'd love for our listeners to get to know you on a more
personal level. So if you can share, you know
your own journal journey throughinfertility and IVF and how this
experience really has shaped both your life as a parent and
your work after. Sure, it began when my wife and
(02:59):
I started thinking about having children.
But before that, during my thirdyear of medical school, I'm
first doctor in my family. I didn't know what I wanted to
do in medicine. Every rotation that I had, I
loved. And I thought, I have to do
this. I have to do this.
So I'm on the OBGYN rotation andour director said, OK, look, we
(03:20):
got a spot open for one week in the infertility service.
Who wants to do it? And nobody was raising their
hand. I said, I said I'll do it.
I don't know much about it, but I'll do it one day.
I was on there. It was for a week.
But after the first day, I called my mom and I said, this
is it. I found it.
I could not believe the impact that this field has on patients.
(03:45):
The technology, the the hormonalaspects, the emergency aspects,
the psychology, the the emotional connection with your
patients is is just mind boggling.
And I could not believe I knew right then that this is what I
wanted to do for the rest of my life, which is unusual because I
(04:07):
had to then finish my fourth year of medical school, go
through all of residency to become a fellow and reproductive
endocrinology, and then of course, go into practice.
But that was it. However, however, fourth year I
met my wife, fourth year of medical school, we got married
the first year of residency. And then probably my third year
(04:28):
of residency, we started trying to get pregnant and it wasn't
happening. And I said, so the love of the
field and my passion and compassion was already there for
the field. But to have it strike home was
was overwhelming. And we went through 10 years of
(04:52):
trying to conceive, initially naturally, of course, and then
IUI cycles for for those who don't know, that's artificial
insemination with medication stimulating the ovaries.
She had surgery, I had surgery, multiple IVF cycles.
She had complications from IVF, even an ectopic pregnancy and a
(05:15):
miscarriage. So sort of two pregnancy losses,
right? I was taking care of patients
during the day, crying at me, right, because of their
infertility, and then going homewith my wife crying.
So I felt I was under Niagara Falls there, there.
(05:37):
It was overwhelming, paralyzing,feeling very vulnerable,
insecure, not a demand, right? And there was no place to go.
I was literally lost at and feeling on a life raft in the
middle of an ocean, didn't know where to go.
(05:59):
All my And so when I talk to my patients and they look at me,
they say, you know, how do you know how I feel?
You're describing, you know, you're asking me these questions
and your insight into my emotions is so strong.
I said, because I lived your life.
So patients don't care how much you know until they know how
(06:20):
much you care. When and when you express that
kind of emotional intelligence where you where you have the
insight into your own feelings but also theirs, that connection
is powerful. So pregnancy loss, like what
you're doing with patients and helping them through this.
(06:42):
I, I, I, I, I would tell you that it speaks volumes to your
compassion and empathy. And I know you're helping so
many people, and I'm just so delighted to be with you today.
Doctor T, thank you so much for opening up and sharing.
You know your journey and your story and I know like you, you
knew this all by textbook, right?
(07:02):
You studied it. And then when you live it, it's
just, it can be so overwhelming because there's so many steps
and testing and probing and prodding and everything that you
have to do with IU is and IVF and, and all of that.
And to, you know, be living it during the day with your
patients, like you were saying, and then at night and in your
personal life. I can't even imagine those
(07:24):
overwhelming feelings. Ironically, this morning in
teaching the Objuan residents during a lecture, the lecture
was entitled Recurrent PregnancyLoss.
So I gave that lecture today andafter the years of struggle in
trying to have a child, we decided that the way we were
(07:47):
going to build our family is through adoption.
I was uncomfortable for years about that option.
I always say that I'm a stubbornItalian from northern New
Jersey, so I didn't. I didn't know anything about
adoption. I didn't know anybody that did.
I felt my family would look at my children differently.
(08:07):
I didn't know how I was going tofeel about the child.
And our first placement, we wereready to have the birth giver.
We were a month away to having our child and the birth giver
changed their mind so that that was truly an emotional
(08:30):
miscarriage. And so we grieved.
But then we just said, look, we want to build a family.
And the following month, my daughter and I, I knew that I
did not want my children to everfeel like they were a
(08:50):
substitute. While we're waiting for our
quote UN quote, own children. These were our children.
And my wife and I made a pact that we were not going to try
biologically anymore and we weregonna build our family.
Now we have 5 children and we were never gonna make them feel
that they were temporary for ourown children.
(09:13):
And it's been, it's been an education.
Our, my family embraces my children because they're so
loving. And it was the one regret.
And if I could just impart this upon your listeners, the one
regret is not doing things sooner.
If you have, if you have a problem, address the options.
(09:37):
Life is never the way we want itto be.
And the fulfillment and the challenge of life is adjusting
to what is thrown at you. So what I've learned in this
process is that we are not defined by our ability to
biologically procreate. We're defined by what we do with
(10:03):
our life. You know, there's a famous
author that quotes to say your talent is what God's gift to
you, but what you do with your talent is your gift to God.
And so the ability to procreate and to grow your family
biologically is invariably everybody's, everybody's goal
when they when they want to build their family.
(10:26):
If the odds are looking slim, you have to consider what kind
of a physical, emotional and financial investment you want to
put into this. Because if the odds are low and
you've tried several different things, you have to make that
(10:46):
very important and sometimes very challenging decision.
Is, is do you do alternative options like egg donation, sperm
donation, embryo donation, adoption, all of those different
things? If I, if I could just say one,
one thing and I'm, I'm not necessarily advocating third
(11:06):
party. I'm just giving you these type
of insights. I remember doing an embryo
transfer on a Saturday morning. Bernice.
Yeah, we did the transfer and she said, hey, Doctor T, do you
communicate with my OBGYN about how I got pregnant?
I said, well, I'll let them knowif you get pregnant and and
they're gonna take care of you from there on.
She says please. She used egg donation.
(11:29):
She said, please make sure you don't tell my over Joanne, this
baby is not mine. And I said, Oh my gosh, I was.
I was paralyzed. I will never forget the way she
said that. And when she said that, so in
the transfer room after we did the transfer, I said, can we
(11:52):
talk? So I wheeled my chair over to
her. She's lying on the table.
And I said, look, this baby, Godwilling, you get pregnant and
have a baby, this baby will onlyknow you as mom.
And it is vital that you share that same feeling with this
(12:12):
baby. Otherwise it's doing a terrible,
terrible disservice. And families that grew up in the
same home that love each other, that's a family.
It's not the genetics, but I understand the impact.
Personally, I'll never know whatit's like to not have biological
children, but I will tell you that my regret is not doing what
(12:34):
I did sooner. So we could have been younger
when we had children, but it's abut.
This is what life is. You don't look back.
You only get a strained neck from looking back.
You got to look forward. Yeah, I always say, you know,
you look in the rearview mirror and it only calls his accident.
You need to look through the windshield and keep driving
forward. And you know, it's so true.
(12:54):
It's true. I love that string neck.
Yep, you know. The best thing that your
patients are doing, I'm sorry, the best thing your patients are
doing or your, your, your listeners are doing is getting
education and support. Absolutely.
This is a devastating, devastating part of life is
having a pregnancy loss or the loss of a child.
(13:15):
Yes, I, I, I, you know, very fewthings are comparable on an
emotional scale as that their feelings need to be validated
and it's going to take time. Grieving process is different
for everybody. The length of time though, it is
important to resolve that you never forget and you shouldn't.
(13:37):
It just gets less painful, but you never forget.
Perseverance should allow the joy and fulfillment that you're
seeking if you're open to all options and hopefully the option
that you originally were pursuing comes to you.
And that's that's my prayer, of course.
(14:00):
Yes, of course. Oh my goodness.
And I think, you know, to look at this in a holistic
perspective with your clients and with your patients to doctor
T is huge because you're not just thinking with the IVF cap
one like we can hear sometimes with fertility clinics, you
know, like round after round after round after round, but
you're having educated conversations with this isn't
(14:22):
your only option. We can look at donation third
party. We can as in donation of, you
know, eggs and sperm, but then also looking at adoption and
surrogacy or, you know, having all of them laid out so well for
them. So then they can talk and work
through. But someone who's also lived it
and you've had to get to that point of, you know, this is
(14:44):
where we're going to go and thisis the journey that we're
taking. And for you to share that with
someone is just, it means so much more that validation and
being heard and seen than anything else really can in
those moments. Yeah, it's, it's not easy.
You know, we have a psychologistas part of our practice.
We have an acupuncture specialist, our field and all of
(15:09):
Women's Health care actually, when it comes to the, the, the
infertility, the miscarriage andthe loss of a child, physicians
have to validate that devastation.
And it's not always easy. Every physician handles this in
a different manner. It's it's difficult for us to
(15:32):
face the disappointment of a patient because our job is to
always try to satisfy a patient.And I think that, or at least I
know when patients don't conceive from a treatment cycle
that we do. There's something inside to me
to say. What did I do wrong?
(15:53):
That's sort of my first reaction.
And I guess that's what that's, that's what makes good
physicians. But I, I, I look at the cycle
and I say, you know, is there something that we could have
done differently? And even if there is nothing
that we could have done differently, I'm still
devastated about a negative pregnancy test.
When I started being the director at, when I first came
(16:15):
to Orlando back in 1999, I, we started the IVF program in, in
the hospital and our first groupof patients, there were five of
them and four got pregnant. And the administrator or the
president of the hospital calledme and say, I just heard about
your success rates. It's unbelievable.
(16:35):
Congratulations. And, and as she's talking with
me, she, she hears that my, my despair and my voice and, and
she says, well, why aren't you more excited?
I said, because I had to call one patient to tell her that she
wasn't pregnant. And I can't feel great.
I can't feel great when 1 is. I'm so devastated.
(16:55):
You know you can't expect everyone to conceive with your
treatment cycles, but it doesn'tmean you should stop trying.
Yeah, Oh my goodness. When I think, you know, having
that level of care from someone and really taking it personally
and then looking at their protocols and changing things up
and to see, you know, what else can be more successful in the
(17:16):
next round if they choose to do another round or, you know,
where did things fall short? You know, from a medical
perspective, taking that deep dive into things is half the
battle in and of itself. Because you know, so many times
we hear people talk about, you know, they just did the same
protocol after protocol after protocol, nothing changed.
Just hoping for different results almost.
(17:38):
And it's like hearing, you know,you really taking that
ownership, Dr. T, that's huge. Well, it's communication 2.
Doctors can say the exact same thing, but it's the presentation
and the outward expression of understanding and allowing the
(17:58):
patient to ask questions and to ensure open dialogue.
Communication is, is vital. Patients want to be empowered,
they want to be involved in the decision making.
And you know, if you're dismissive with their concerns
or questions, then that's going to cause some pretty hard
(18:20):
feelings for patients. And that's why patients will
move to different clinics. But it's the it's the feeling
that the patient knows you understand and care, right.
If you treat a patient as number1567, that is not going to work
out right their individualized personal care and, and that's
(18:44):
what's going to be necessary. But you know, once again, the,
the resources that you're providing for, for the people
that have been so devastated over, over losses is invaluable.
And there's, there's probably not enough of acknowledgement
of, of this feeling. You know, I, I remember early in
(19:05):
my career of, of friends tellingpatients, oh, you know, you're
young, you could have another one.
Well, that's not what they want to hear.
You know, I just had one, that one didn't make it.
And I need time to grieve and pray and try to understand how
(19:25):
could this have happened and mourn the loss of my child, you
know, to be. So these are friends and family.
They don't know what to say. So, you know, the best thing
that I have said that I can share with patients about if
they've had a prior loss or if they've had infertility and then
finally get pregnant is to probably not tell anybody until
(19:49):
you're out of the first trimester.
Because once you're out of the first trimester, the chance of
loss is really, really low, A1 to 2% or so.
But if you, but if the more people that you tell and if God
forbid, there is a tragedy, thenyou have to answer more people
now. And you really that, that could
(20:09):
be uncomfortable the more peoplethat you tell.
So, you know, it's a, it's a private situation, but I'll tell
you, sometimes families and different cultures inquire so
much and put so much pressure ontheir children to have children.
That it that that's an additional stress to those that
are having trouble conceiving. And I I tell my patients the
(20:32):
only thing you owe your parents is love.
Yes. As long as they love you,
There's no contractual obligation for you to have to
have children because they want you to have children.
Yeah. So you have to let them know
that to respect your privacy. And if there's any news, you'll
let them know. Yeah.
Wow. And that's so powerful.
(20:52):
And it's true. And I don't know, Doctor TI
would love you for you to shed light on this.
But something that we're findingtoo, when, you know, clients are
coming to us is their parents, you know, from the, you know,
previous generation when they were having kids and things like
that, they weren't very involvedwith their medical.
Like whatever the doctor said kind of went and you just kind
(21:14):
of followed whatever they said. And if they said like, just go
home and after losing a baby, you know, go home and conceive
again, kind of like get over this, you need to move on,
whatever. You know, they.
And in those moments when the doctor, you know, says about
going to have another baby, it feels like for me, it's like,
you know, you're telling me thatthere's another baby is going to
replace my baby, which isn't thecase.
(21:36):
And that's not really what happens.
But that's kind of how they coped with it back in the day.
And, you know, today it feels like, you know, we're so much
more involved with our own medical and we ask a lot more
questions and, you know, we wantto be seen, heard and validated
and not just brush things under the rug and keep going on and,
(21:56):
you know, moving on and feeling like we don't have a place to
put things, you know, or talk through things or process things
and feeling involved in our care.
Very insightful, Very insightful, Bernice.
Yeah. It's not your father's or even
your grandfather's medicine. This is Generation Z.
We have instantaneous access to information.
(22:19):
The worry is that the information is not necessarily
substantiated. TikTok.
TikTok has replaced Google as a go to source, the number one go
to source for healthcare for a lot of the younger generation.
That's why you're seeing so manyphysicians online with, I would
(22:39):
say, some questionable videos interms of the entertainment
value. I'm a little bit more
conservative in terms of how I want to educate my patients
rather than dancing and lip syncing and doing that kind of
stuff. But to your point, the patients
demanded appropriately that we answer all their questions.
(23:01):
We provide fairly prompt feedback to have them involved
in their care. When I was a boy, I was in the
waiting room with my mom, who was waiting to see her doctor.
I will never forget this. And I tell the story a lot
because we're sitting around andthe waiting room is packed and
(23:22):
it's dark outside. And I said to my mom, I said,
mom, this waiting room is packed.
We're all waiting for this. And nobody's complaining.
What's going? How?
How could this be? She said Because when we get in
there, he answers everybody's questions and never let them
leave unless they feel comfortable that they got their
(23:46):
questions answered. I never forgot that It was one
of the touch points of my life as being a physician and I felt
that if I was going to go into medicine, that's what I would
pray that patients would feel. So we get behind it's, it's
sometimes overwhelming for us, but it's our obligation to
(24:09):
ensure that we care for patients, answer all their
questions, try to understand their true fear and really
accept that they are angry. They're not necessarily angry at
us, They're angry at the world, even God over why did this
(24:30):
happen to me? Why, why am I being victimized
in a sense? And they want and, and we are
the messenger and we understand that.
I think a good fertility practice or objuan practice
understands that patients anger with outside circumstances, but
(24:52):
patients anger over their diagnosis is their cry over why
me? So it's the support, the support
that's vital, Yeah. Absolutely.
And I think being handheld, you know, a lot of times, you know,
we hear stories of I got my discharge papers, you know,
after having a, you know, a babyloss and early term, you know,
(25:15):
miscarriage and they go home and, you know, they
unfortunately had to do ADNC or,or whatever the case was, it was
already just everything is already traumatic and
devastating, But then they're not really given a lot of
guidance. It's like if you have these
issues, come back to the hospital, but that's it, like
goodbye kind of thing, especially if it's like an
emergency room situation and nothaving that knowledge of like
(25:36):
what to expect next or what you're going to see, you know,
just, you know, from everything clearing out and just to feel
like it was so minimized in those situations is extremely
difficult when all you're looking for is condolence and,
you know, compassion and empathy.
(25:57):
Like, you know, the things that us humans, you know, need
because we're emotional beings. You said that very eloquently
and and powerfully. Yeah.
They pay patients need to we need to have more access to care
to patients with the right resources.
(26:19):
Women, Women's Health ER insteadof a general ER, they, they, we
need to be able to give them the, the ability to understand.
It's education too. And if there is a language
(26:40):
barrier, then you ensure that there's an interpreter and, and
unfortunately a private equity that's buying up a lot of
practices and a lot of even hospitals, it becomes
financially, financially beneficial to get the patients
in and out, get the patients in and out.
And that's not why we went into medicine or should have gone
(27:03):
into medicine. It, you know, physicians usually
are compensated fairly well, butthat is not the bottom line.
The bottom line is why we becamephysicians, and we have to
remember that. Yeah, absolutely, Doctor T And
you know, in these like, you know, when we become pregnant,
all of our hormones just spike and and heighten, right.
(27:26):
And so not only are we going into everything so emotionally
charged, and that's if someone also, you know, if they have
like endometriosis or PCOS or, or different, you know,
symptoms, you know, from different conditions that they
may have and things that complicate things and, and throw
hormones all off whack on top ofthem being told, you know, that
(27:49):
this isn't going to be easy to conceive your own children and
you're going to need like an IUIor an IVF and things like that.
You know, looking at it from that standpoint of
understanding, it's so differentthan, you know, telling someone
that they have a hangnail that they need to get removed.
Do you know what I mean? Like in those situations because
like, there's so much other things going on that we can't
(28:11):
explain or don't even know. And it's hard to almost have a
level head in those situations. I remember a patient vividly.
One of the one of the questions I ask patients all the time,
usually at the outset, is how are you doing?
And there was this one patient that just started crying and
(28:36):
probably cried for 20 minutes tohalf hour.
She said. You're the first person to ever
ask me how I'm doing. And I try to teach my medical
students and the residents that don't underestimate the
devastation of infertility or pregnancy loss or because the
more outward they are being jovial or engaging and
(28:59):
interactive and even laughing. I said they are crying.
Yes, on the inside. Yes, that patient who started
crying, she came back for a second consultation and brought
me back ten boxes of Kleenex. She said I used, I used so many
Kleenex in your office that day.I felt so embarrassed.
(29:22):
I had to give you this. So it's a little little humorous
aspect, but one that I think we have to remember.
And I, and I, and in some way I,I feel a little relief if they
do cry during the consultation because I think you cry after,
after the heightened anxiety andacute issue is showing some
(29:48):
semblance of relief or stability.
You know, you don't cry at the absolute height because you are
in the middle of the fight and flight, right?
But when, but when we start talking and I give them hope,
that's when I see there's some crying because I think that
there's some resolution there. When I, and when I tell them
(30:10):
about the word hope is my acronym for hope.
HOPE is to have only positive energy.
That's the best use of the word I think you could have.
And then we also talk about the issue of stress and stress.
The best definition is trying tocontrol something you can't.
(30:33):
So we, so I am, I encourage themto take charge of things that
they can influence. But if there are things that
they literally can't change, then we have to do the best we
can with adjusting to that. Yeah.
And I think it's fear, you know,going into the unknown, not
knowing what to expect, not knowing what you're going to be
(30:54):
told, not knowing how the doctor's going to be or, you
know, that that relationship, because it really is a
relationship that you enter intobecause you both want the same
outcome and you both care so deeply, you know.
And and so it like when those fears looks like an onion, when
you start peeling back those layers and giving them, you
(31:15):
know, the different, answering their questions, being there
and, and really like seeing themfor them.
Yeah. Like a pile of mush.
Absolutely. You, you hit it right on the
head with fear. The the most common, the most
common statement that a patient makes to me is that they fear
(31:39):
I'm going to tell them they're never going to be a mom.
Yes, and that is the prevailing worry for when they come in
patient today, she has regular menstrual cycles for years and
just the last month or so they became irregular and I told I
(32:00):
told them that I used to worry about that.
Why is she having regular periods all of a sudden?
And then I realized that so manyof my patients who have regular
periods a month or so before start having irregularity, and
it's presumably stress related. It's right before they see me.
(32:23):
They're at the height of worry, and stress can impact
reproduction. Yes, and you know, like you were
saying TikTok, Google searching,I would love to share, you know,
the acronym of fear we always say is false evidence appearing
real. And a lot of that comes from
(32:44):
seeing, you know, when you startyour algorithms on your phone
start to know you. So if you're searching like, why
am I not getting pregnant? Why, you know, am I having
fertility troubles? And then all of a sudden
everything infertility related starts popping up, videos,
doctors, everything. And then when you start to
almost live in that world, like,you know, we want to buy the red
truck and then all you see is the infamous red truck on the
(33:07):
road and you're like, this is a sign.
This is it. That's how you feel on socials
when you start scrolling throughall this stuff, you know, and,
and getting that fear by walkingthrough the doors to your, you
know, the IVF center and talkingto you Doctor T is huge because
you can put those fears at Bay and talk through it in an
educated way that also makes theperson feel like, OK, this isn't
(33:31):
so overwhelming. It's not the big elephant.
Now I can take a little bite at a time with someone, right?
Yeah, that very, very well put. Your patients, women talk to
other women and they are bombarded with unqualified and
sometimes misinformation and that worsens their spiral into
(33:55):
worry and feeling anxious. So, but it's difficult.
I mean, all they have to do is have Internet access and they
are finding so much online. And it's difficult for the
uneducated in terms of being trained in healthcare.
It's difficult for them to know what is real and what is not.
And that's where the physician has to be the teacher to be able
(34:19):
to dispel myths, give realistic,realistic expectations so that
we can work together toward their goal.
Yeah, that's so true. And I think, you know, you
starting to and how you are teaching the doctors coming up,
(34:40):
right? And you know, our future, which
is so beautiful and amazing and them understanding this level of
care and how you need to, you know, put things into
perspective for people and also educate at the same time.
But also, I always call dumbing down whenever I go into my
doctor. And it's not because I'm trying
to dismiss what I know or, you know, anything like that.
(35:03):
But even being a professional when you're living it, Doctor T,
did you feel like sometimes likethe information was just too
much and you can't really hear it or register it for what it
is? So you almost need it to, like,
be put so simply to you that then you can process it?
Yeah. No bingo.
When I go to a doctor, even today, I said, look, I'm a
little anxious about stuff. Don't even get into the big
(35:24):
words. Just give me something that I
could understand. Yeah, and I'm in the club and I
don't want to hear that. I I want to hear basics.
Don't give me the terms that I have to look up because I'm not
in the field that you're in. I want to know 5th, 5th grade
level. Let's make it nice and easy so I
can get it. Yes, yes, yeah.
(35:46):
When it's when it's ourselves too, it can be so overwhelming
and it's so personal. So yeah.
And hearing you, you know that you know enough to be dangerous
and all the different, you know,because you you oversaw
different fields in medical school and stuff.
But having those specialties too, I mean, that is huge and
just make. Think about.
Calling to a specialist. Yeah.
(36:07):
Think, think about also, which we haven't touched on, is the
support of the partner, the support of the partner.
Yeah, that's huge and instrumental.
The men always get, you know, the the dads always get
overlooked. Yeah.
Well, if they are with a heterosexual relationship or if
they're the same sex partner, yes.
(36:27):
You never want to leave them out, Yes.
You also don't know the impact of the fertility problem with
the partner emotionally. Now, if it's a heterosexual
couple, the man is definitely worried that it could be that
could be their involvement, which happens 30 to 40% of the
time. Yeah.
So making sure that you evaluatethe couple and also instilling
(36:51):
into the couple that this is nota blame game.
Whomever, wherever we get the diagnosis, let's be grateful
that we can address it and then move on.
We are not looking to see whose fault it is, we're looking to
see what we could do to solve this problem.
But the the person, let's say the woman who's trying to
(37:13):
conceive, the most important support that they get is from
their partner. And sometimes couples will grow
more distant as a result of this, either shame,
disappointment, self blame. There, there are so many
different reasons, but it's a couple's problem.
And I knew that from very, very early, from my own experience.
(37:34):
And so that's why we have a psychologist with us because of
recognizing that this is a physical, emotional and
financial commitment. Yes, because it is it, it's the
shame, blame and guilt game, youknow, that's what we call it
because it's it's feeling all those things.
But really from a perspective ofonly understanding where it's
(37:56):
coming from is really the medical intervention can come in
and then you can figure out the right protocols or different
avenues that you guys can look at.
But you're right, it, you know, it should be looked at together,
but there's so much distress between a couple.
I know when you share Doctor T at the beginning that your wife
and you went on a 10 year fertility journey.
I just like, you know, I was 2 1/2 with my husband and I just
(38:19):
think, oh, you know, that was a that was a lot on us.
Grateful we made it out, you know, and and are still together
stronger than ever. But it during those times, yeah,
we looked at each other and and then we always ask the questions
like were we enough without children together, you know, or,
or what does that, you know, those are questions that you
(38:40):
never thought early on in your marriage or in a relationship
that you would have to even question or ask yourselves.
And the more difficult it is to conceive if you're having
infertility, the more time you have to question everything.
Yes. Do we do genetic testing?
(39:00):
How advanced do we want to go? How many children do we want?
Do we even want to have children?
And then you get into a situation, some patients get
analysis paralysis. They are now they are evaluating
their situation to such detail that they don't know where to
go. And so I see that a lot.
If they consider a donation or sperm donation, they evaluate
(39:26):
the profile medically, family history, genetics of the donor.
I said, you know, I said really,you're going to know more about
this donor than you're going to know from me about each other.
But if they go very deep into ifthey do a deep dive, I said,
look, I said, you know, you really didn't think about this
with your partner like you are doing this right now.
(39:47):
And I think that you're you're blocking yourself from being
able to move on. So we get into that kind of a
conversation too. Wow, my goodness, I know your
patience just appreciate and admire you.
I'm sure Doctor T cause coveringall these bases with them and
(40:07):
you know, willing to take it on and take on these conversations,
but then also put your personal aspect and approach into it
about what everything and how you openly share.
Is huge. I mean, it just means the world
in those unforeseen and unknowable moments, you know,
when we're feeling like a fish out of water and out of control
and outside of our own bodies. And just to like have someone at
(40:30):
this level, Doctor T, going overthings, that's instrumental.
Well, thank you, Bernice. I, I was honored to be invited.
I, I just want to reiterate to your listeners, is that we have
to know when we relinquish control, there are things that
are out of our control. And while that's scary, it's,
(40:52):
it's a part of life. Even the, a young woman who's
pregnant is no guarantee of the outcome.
So we take the leap of faith because we're looking toward the
goal we want, but there are somethings that we have to leave up
to God and nature and what we can control.
We should do as best as we can. But what we can't, we have to
(41:14):
take that leap of faith and and work through our our mind and
body to be able to understand that things can happen.
But we did the absolute best that we could.
Yeah. Oh, that's so beautifully put,
Doctor T Thank you for that. Well, thank you so much for
(41:35):
sharing your insight, your expertise with us today.
Anyone listening, if you or someone you know is navigating
the challenges of pregnancy and fertility, baby loss all around,
remember you're not alone and support is available.
To get involved, raise awarenessand find other resources, visit
chasingtherainbows.org or Baby Loss awareness.org.
Your actions, big or small, can make a real difference for
(41:57):
families in need. And again, thank you so much,
Doctor T If anyone's looking to connect with him or to buy his
book, I would love, you know, for you to visit the IVF center
and out of Florida and you can find out more information there
and maybe even go visit Doctor T.
So thanks again Doctor T so muchfor being on today.
My pleasure, Bernice. Congratulations again for your
(42:19):
invaluable foundation and it's apleasure to be with you today.
Thank you. That means the world from you.
Thanks Doctor T play song.
Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
host Bernice Quisenberry. Today's episode is especially
powerful. We're honored to sit down with
(00:29):
Doctor Mark Trellis, or also known as Doctor TA, leading
reproductive endocrinologist, founder of the IVF Center, and a
man who has walked the very samepath he now guides so many
through. In this heartfelt conversation,
Doctor T shares his own IVF journey to parenthood, the
challenges, the resilience, and the hope that carried him
(00:51):
forward. From his professional expertise
to his deeply personal story, T opens up about what it means to
live through infertility and howthose experiences shaped his
life as both a doctor and a dad.Let's go through some of his
credentials. He's a professor at the UCF
College of Medicine, responsiblefor the medical education of
(01:12):
OBGYN residents and medical students.
He is also associate program director of the new UCFHCA
Florida Healthcare Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility
Fellowship program. He is a medical local journal
editor and authored research studies with publications and
many leading medical journals and textbooks, and he lectures
(01:35):
at numerous physician conferences.
His latest book is The Infertility Doctor's Guide to
Overcoming Infertility. Wow.
This is a story of science, strength, and the humanity at
the heart of every family's journey.
Welcome, Doctor T. Oh goodness, I was so kind.
Thank you so much and hello to everybody listening today.
(01:57):
And I want to 1st congratulate you.
I just learned about your foundation.
I want to congratulate you. What an endeavor, how many, how
many lives you are touching withwith your empathy, supporting
and I just hope that we can contribute to their education,
empowerment and answer questionsthat they may have.
(02:18):
Thank you, Doctor T this means the world to have you on and
just, you know, hearing all about it.
And you know, we're just so honored and many of our
listeners, you know, know you asthe founder of the IVF Center
and leader in reproductive medicine as you are.
But what some may not know is that passion for this work comes
from your own very personal place.
(02:39):
And I'd love for our listeners to get to know you on a more
personal level. So if you can share, you know
your own journal journey throughinfertility and IVF and how this
experience really has shaped both your life as a parent and
your work after. Sure, it began when my wife and
(02:59):
I started thinking about having children.
But before that, during my thirdyear of medical school, I'm
first doctor in my family. I didn't know what I wanted to
do in medicine. Every rotation that I had, I
loved. And I thought, I have to do
this. I have to do this.
So I'm on the OBGYN rotation andour director said, OK, look, we
(03:20):
got a spot open for one week in the infertility service.
Who wants to do it? And nobody was raising their
hand. I said, I said I'll do it.
I don't know much about it, but I'll do it one day.
I was on there. It was for a week.
But after the first day, I called my mom and I said, this
is it. I found it.
I could not believe the impact that this field has on patients.
(03:45):
The technology, the the hormonalaspects, the emergency aspects,
the psychology, the the emotional connection with your
patients is is just mind boggling.
And I could not believe I knew right then that this is what I
wanted to do for the rest of my life, which is unusual because I
(04:07):
had to then finish my fourth year of medical school, go
through all of residency to become a fellow and reproductive
endocrinology, and then of course, go into practice.
But that was it. However, however, fourth year I
met my wife, fourth year of medical school, we got married
the first year of residency. And then probably my third year
(04:28):
of residency, we started trying to get pregnant and it wasn't
happening. And I said, so the love of the
field and my passion and compassion was already there for
the field. But to have it strike home was
was overwhelming. And we went through 10 years of
(04:52):
trying to conceive, initially naturally, of course, and then
IUI cycles for for those who don't know, that's artificial
insemination with medication stimulating the ovaries.
She had surgery, I had surgery, multiple IVF cycles.
She had complications from IVF, even an ectopic pregnancy and a
(05:15):
miscarriage. So sort of two pregnancy losses,
right? I was taking care of patients
during the day, crying at me, right, because of their
infertility, and then going homewith my wife crying.
So I felt I was under Niagara Falls there, there.
(05:37):
It was overwhelming, paralyzing,feeling very vulnerable,
insecure, not a demand, right? And there was no place to go.
I was literally lost at and feeling on a life raft in the
middle of an ocean, didn't know where to go.
(05:59):
All my And so when I talk to my patients and they look at me,
they say, you know, how do you know how I feel?
You're describing, you know, you're asking me these questions
and your insight into my emotions is so strong.
I said, because I lived your life.
So patients don't care how much you know until they know how
(06:20):
much you care. When and when you express that
kind of emotional intelligence where you where you have the
insight into your own feelings but also theirs, that connection
is powerful. So pregnancy loss, like what
you're doing with patients and helping them through this.
(06:42):
I, I, I, I, I would tell you that it speaks volumes to your
compassion and empathy. And I know you're helping so
many people, and I'm just so delighted to be with you today.
Doctor T, thank you so much for opening up and sharing.
You know your journey and your story and I know like you, you
knew this all by textbook, right?
(07:02):
You studied it. And then when you live it, it's
just, it can be so overwhelming because there's so many steps
and testing and probing and prodding and everything that you
have to do with IU is and IVF and, and all of that.
And to, you know, be living it during the day with your
patients, like you were saying, and then at night and in your
personal life. I can't even imagine those
(07:24):
overwhelming feelings. Ironically, this morning in
teaching the Objuan residents during a lecture, the lecture
was entitled Recurrent PregnancyLoss.
So I gave that lecture today andafter the years of struggle in
trying to have a child, we decided that the way we were
(07:47):
going to build our family is through adoption.
I was uncomfortable for years about that option.
I always say that I'm a stubbornItalian from northern New
Jersey, so I didn't. I didn't know anything about
adoption. I didn't know anybody that did.
I felt my family would look at my children differently.
(08:07):
I didn't know how I was going tofeel about the child.
And our first placement, we wereready to have the birth giver.
We were a month away to having our child and the birth giver
changed their mind so that that was truly an emotional
(08:30):
miscarriage. And so we grieved.
But then we just said, look, we want to build a family.
And the following month, my daughter and I, I knew that I
did not want my children to everfeel like they were a
(08:50):
substitute. While we're waiting for our
quote UN quote, own children. These were our children.
And my wife and I made a pact that we were not going to try
biologically anymore and we weregonna build our family.
Now we have 5 children and we were never gonna make them feel
that they were temporary for ourown children.
(09:13):
And it's been, it's been an education.
Our, my family embraces my children because they're so
loving. And it was the one regret.
And if I could just impart this upon your listeners, the one
regret is not doing things sooner.
If you have, if you have a problem, address the options.
(09:37):
Life is never the way we want itto be.
And the fulfillment and the challenge of life is adjusting
to what is thrown at you. So what I've learned in this
process is that we are not defined by our ability to
biologically procreate. We're defined by what we do with
(10:03):
our life. You know, there's a famous
author that quotes to say your talent is what God's gift to
you, but what you do with your talent is your gift to God.
And so the ability to procreate and to grow your family
biologically is invariably everybody's, everybody's goal
when they when they want to build their family.
(10:26):
If the odds are looking slim, you have to consider what kind
of a physical, emotional and financial investment you want to
put into this. Because if the odds are low and
you've tried several different things, you have to make that
(10:46):
very important and sometimes very challenging decision.
Is, is do you do alternative options like egg donation, sperm
donation, embryo donation, adoption, all of those different
things? If I, if I could just say one,
one thing and I'm, I'm not necessarily advocating third
(11:06):
party. I'm just giving you these type
of insights. I remember doing an embryo
transfer on a Saturday morning. Bernice.
Yeah, we did the transfer and she said, hey, Doctor T, do you
communicate with my OBGYN about how I got pregnant?
I said, well, I'll let them knowif you get pregnant and and
they're gonna take care of you from there on.
She says please. She used egg donation.
(11:29):
She said, please make sure you don't tell my over Joanne, this
baby is not mine. And I said, Oh my gosh, I was.
I was paralyzed. I will never forget the way she
said that. And when she said that, so in
the transfer room after we did the transfer, I said, can we
(11:52):
talk? So I wheeled my chair over to
her. She's lying on the table.
And I said, look, this baby, Godwilling, you get pregnant and
have a baby, this baby will onlyknow you as mom.
And it is vital that you share that same feeling with this
(12:12):
baby. Otherwise it's doing a terrible,
terrible disservice. And families that grew up in the
same home that love each other, that's a family.
It's not the genetics, but I understand the impact.
Personally, I'll never know whatit's like to not have biological
children, but I will tell you that my regret is not doing what
(12:34):
I did sooner. So we could have been younger
when we had children, but it's abut.
This is what life is. You don't look back.
You only get a strained neck from looking back.
You got to look forward. Yeah, I always say, you know,
you look in the rearview mirror and it only calls his accident.
You need to look through the windshield and keep driving
forward. And you know, it's so true.
(12:54):
It's true. I love that string neck.
Yep, you know. The best thing that your
patients are doing, I'm sorry, the best thing your patients are
doing or your, your, your listeners are doing is getting
education and support. Absolutely.
This is a devastating, devastating part of life is
having a pregnancy loss or the loss of a child.
(13:15):
Yes, I, I, I, you know, very fewthings are comparable on an
emotional scale as that their feelings need to be validated
and it's going to take time. Grieving process is different
for everybody. The length of time though, it is
important to resolve that you never forget and you shouldn't.
(13:37):
It just gets less painful, but you never forget.
Perseverance should allow the joy and fulfillment that you're
seeking if you're open to all options and hopefully the option
that you originally were pursuing comes to you.
And that's that's my prayer, of course.
(14:00):
Yes, of course. Oh my goodness.
And I think, you know, to look at this in a holistic
perspective with your clients and with your patients to doctor
T is huge because you're not just thinking with the IVF cap
one like we can hear sometimes with fertility clinics, you
know, like round after round after round after round, but
you're having educated conversations with this isn't
(14:22):
your only option. We can look at donation third
party. We can as in donation of, you
know, eggs and sperm, but then also looking at adoption and
surrogacy or, you know, having all of them laid out so well for
them. So then they can talk and work
through. But someone who's also lived it
and you've had to get to that point of, you know, this is
(14:44):
where we're going to go and thisis the journey that we're
taking. And for you to share that with
someone is just, it means so much more that validation and
being heard and seen than anything else really can in
those moments. Yeah, it's, it's not easy.
You know, we have a psychologistas part of our practice.
We have an acupuncture specialist, our field and all of
(15:09):
Women's Health care actually, when it comes to the, the, the
infertility, the miscarriage andthe loss of a child, physicians
have to validate that devastation.
And it's not always easy. Every physician handles this in
a different manner. It's it's difficult for us to
(15:32):
face the disappointment of a patient because our job is to
always try to satisfy a patient.And I think that, or at least I
know when patients don't conceive from a treatment cycle
that we do. There's something inside to me
to say. What did I do wrong?
(15:53):
That's sort of my first reaction.
And I guess that's what that's, that's what makes good
physicians. But I, I, I look at the cycle
and I say, you know, is there something that we could have
done differently? And even if there is nothing
that we could have done differently, I'm still
devastated about a negative pregnancy test.
When I started being the director at, when I first came
(16:15):
to Orlando back in 1999, I, we started the IVF program in, in
the hospital and our first groupof patients, there were five of
them and four got pregnant. And the administrator or the
president of the hospital calledme and say, I just heard about
your success rates. It's unbelievable.
(16:35):
Congratulations. And, and as she's talking with
me, she, she hears that my, my despair and my voice and, and
she says, well, why aren't you more excited?
I said, because I had to call one patient to tell her that she
wasn't pregnant. And I can't feel great.
I can't feel great when 1 is. I'm so devastated.
(16:55):
You know you can't expect everyone to conceive with your
treatment cycles, but it doesn'tmean you should stop trying.
Yeah, Oh my goodness. When I think, you know, having
that level of care from someone and really taking it personally
and then looking at their protocols and changing things up
and to see, you know, what else can be more successful in the
(17:16):
next round if they choose to do another round or, you know,
where did things fall short? You know, from a medical
perspective, taking that deep dive into things is half the
battle in and of itself. Because you know, so many times
we hear people talk about, you know, they just did the same
protocol after protocol after protocol, nothing changed.
Just hoping for different results almost.
(17:38):
And it's like hearing, you know,you really taking that
ownership, Dr. T, that's huge. Well, it's communication 2.
Doctors can say the exact same thing, but it's the presentation
and the outward expression of understanding and allowing the
(17:58):
patient to ask questions and to ensure open dialogue.
Communication is, is vital. Patients want to be empowered,
they want to be involved in the decision making.
And you know, if you're dismissive with their concerns
or questions, then that's going to cause some pretty hard
(18:20):
feelings for patients. And that's why patients will
move to different clinics. But it's the it's the feeling
that the patient knows you understand and care, right.
If you treat a patient as number1567, that is not going to work
out right their individualized personal care and, and that's
(18:44):
what's going to be necessary. But you know, once again, the,
the resources that you're providing for, for the people
that have been so devastated over, over losses is invaluable.
And there's, there's probably not enough of acknowledgement
of, of this feeling. You know, I, I remember early in
(19:05):
my career of, of friends tellingpatients, oh, you know, you're
young, you could have another one.
Well, that's not what they want to hear.
You know, I just had one, that one didn't make it.
And I need time to grieve and pray and try to understand how
(19:25):
could this have happened and mourn the loss of my child, you
know, to be. So these are friends and family.
They don't know what to say. So, you know, the best thing
that I have said that I can share with patients about if
they've had a prior loss or if they've had infertility and then
finally get pregnant is to probably not tell anybody until
(19:49):
you're out of the first trimester.
Because once you're out of the first trimester, the chance of
loss is really, really low, A1 to 2% or so.
But if you, but if the more people that you tell and if God
forbid, there is a tragedy, thenyou have to answer more people
now. And you really that, that could
(20:09):
be uncomfortable the more peoplethat you tell.
So, you know, it's a, it's a private situation, but I'll tell
you, sometimes families and different cultures inquire so
much and put so much pressure ontheir children to have children.
That it that that's an additional stress to those that
are having trouble conceiving. And I I tell my patients the
(20:32):
only thing you owe your parents is love.
Yes. As long as they love you,
There's no contractual obligation for you to have to
have children because they want you to have children.
Yeah. So you have to let them know
that to respect your privacy. And if there's any news, you'll
let them know. Yeah.
Wow. And that's so powerful.
(20:52):
And it's true. And I don't know, Doctor TI
would love you for you to shed light on this.
But something that we're findingtoo, when, you know, clients are
coming to us is their parents, you know, from the, you know,
previous generation when they were having kids and things like
that, they weren't very involvedwith their medical.
Like whatever the doctor said kind of went and you just kind
(21:14):
of followed whatever they said. And if they said like, just go
home and after losing a baby, you know, go home and conceive
again, kind of like get over this, you need to move on,
whatever. You know, they.
And in those moments when the doctor, you know, says about
going to have another baby, it feels like for me, it's like,
you know, you're telling me thatthere's another baby is going to
replace my baby, which isn't thecase.
(21:36):
And that's not really what happens.
But that's kind of how they coped with it back in the day.
And, you know, today it feels like, you know, we're so much
more involved with our own medical and we ask a lot more
questions and, you know, we wantto be seen, heard and validated
and not just brush things under the rug and keep going on and,
(21:56):
you know, moving on and feeling like we don't have a place to
put things, you know, or talk through things or process things
and feeling involved in our care.
Very insightful, Very insightful, Bernice.
Yeah. It's not your father's or even
your grandfather's medicine. This is Generation Z.
We have instantaneous access to information.
(22:19):
The worry is that the information is not necessarily
substantiated. TikTok.
TikTok has replaced Google as a go to source, the number one go
to source for healthcare for a lot of the younger generation.
That's why you're seeing so manyphysicians online with, I would
(22:39):
say, some questionable videos interms of the entertainment
value. I'm a little bit more
conservative in terms of how I want to educate my patients
rather than dancing and lip syncing and doing that kind of
stuff. But to your point, the patients
demanded appropriately that we answer all their questions.
(23:01):
We provide fairly prompt feedback to have them involved
in their care. When I was a boy, I was in the
waiting room with my mom, who was waiting to see her doctor.
I will never forget this. And I tell the story a lot
because we're sitting around andthe waiting room is packed and
(23:22):
it's dark outside. And I said to my mom, I said,
mom, this waiting room is packed.
We're all waiting for this. And nobody's complaining.
What's going? How?
How could this be? She said Because when we get in
there, he answers everybody's questions and never let them
leave unless they feel comfortable that they got their
(23:46):
questions answered. I never forgot that It was one
of the touch points of my life as being a physician and I felt
that if I was going to go into medicine, that's what I would
pray that patients would feel. So we get behind it's, it's
sometimes overwhelming for us, but it's our obligation to
(24:09):
ensure that we care for patients, answer all their
questions, try to understand their true fear and really
accept that they are angry. They're not necessarily angry at
us, They're angry at the world, even God over why did this
(24:30):
happen to me? Why, why am I being victimized
in a sense? And they want and, and we are
the messenger and we understand that.
I think a good fertility practice or objuan practice
understands that patients anger with outside circumstances, but
(24:52):
patients anger over their diagnosis is their cry over why
me? So it's the support, the support
that's vital, Yeah. Absolutely.
And I think being handheld, you know, a lot of times, you know,
we hear stories of I got my discharge papers, you know,
after having a, you know, a babyloss and early term, you know,
(25:15):
miscarriage and they go home and, you know, they
unfortunately had to do ADNC or,or whatever the case was, it was
already just everything is already traumatic and
devastating, But then they're not really given a lot of
guidance. It's like if you have these
issues, come back to the hospital, but that's it, like
goodbye kind of thing, especially if it's like an
emergency room situation and nothaving that knowledge of like
(25:36):
what to expect next or what you're going to see, you know,
just, you know, from everything clearing out and just to feel
like it was so minimized in those situations is extremely
difficult when all you're looking for is condolence and,
you know, compassion and empathy.
(25:57):
Like, you know, the things that us humans, you know, need
because we're emotional beings. You said that very eloquently
and and powerfully. Yeah.
They pay patients need to we need to have more access to care
to patients with the right resources.
(26:19):
Women, Women's Health ER insteadof a general ER, they, they, we
need to be able to give them the, the ability to understand.
It's education too. And if there is a language
(26:40):
barrier, then you ensure that there's an interpreter and, and
unfortunately a private equity that's buying up a lot of
practices and a lot of even hospitals, it becomes
financially, financially beneficial to get the patients
in and out, get the patients in and out.
And that's not why we went into medicine or should have gone
(27:03):
into medicine. It, you know, physicians usually
are compensated fairly well, butthat is not the bottom line.
The bottom line is why we becamephysicians, and we have to
remember that. Yeah, absolutely, Doctor T And
you know, in these like, you know, when we become pregnant,
all of our hormones just spike and and heighten, right.
(27:26):
And so not only are we going into everything so emotionally
charged, and that's if someone also, you know, if they have
like endometriosis or PCOS or, or different, you know,
symptoms, you know, from different conditions that they
may have and things that complicate things and, and throw
hormones all off whack on top ofthem being told, you know, that
(27:49):
this isn't going to be easy to conceive your own children and
you're going to need like an IUIor an IVF and things like that.
You know, looking at it from that standpoint of
understanding, it's so differentthan, you know, telling someone
that they have a hangnail that they need to get removed.
Do you know what I mean? Like in those situations because
like, there's so much other things going on that we can't
(28:11):
explain or don't even know. And it's hard to almost have a
level head in those situations. I remember a patient vividly.
One of the one of the questions I ask patients all the time,
usually at the outset, is how are you doing?
And there was this one patient that just started crying and
(28:36):
probably cried for 20 minutes tohalf hour.
She said. You're the first person to ever
ask me how I'm doing. And I try to teach my medical
students and the residents that don't underestimate the
devastation of infertility or pregnancy loss or because the
more outward they are being jovial or engaging and
(28:59):
interactive and even laughing. I said they are crying.
Yes, on the inside. Yes, that patient who started
crying, she came back for a second consultation and brought
me back ten boxes of Kleenex. She said I used, I used so many
Kleenex in your office that day.I felt so embarrassed.
(29:22):
I had to give you this. So it's a little little humorous
aspect, but one that I think we have to remember.
And I, and I, and in some way I,I feel a little relief if they
do cry during the consultation because I think you cry after,
after the heightened anxiety andacute issue is showing some
(29:48):
semblance of relief or stability.
You know, you don't cry at the absolute height because you are
in the middle of the fight and flight, right?
But when, but when we start talking and I give them hope,
that's when I see there's some crying because I think that
there's some resolution there. When I, and when I tell them
(30:10):
about the word hope is my acronym for hope.
HOPE is to have only positive energy.
That's the best use of the word I think you could have.
And then we also talk about the issue of stress and stress.
The best definition is trying tocontrol something you can't.
(30:33):
So we, so I am, I encourage themto take charge of things that
they can influence. But if there are things that
they literally can't change, then we have to do the best we
can with adjusting to that. Yeah.
And I think it's fear, you know,going into the unknown, not
knowing what to expect, not knowing what you're going to be
(30:54):
told, not knowing how the doctor's going to be or, you
know, that that relationship, because it really is a
relationship that you enter intobecause you both want the same
outcome and you both care so deeply, you know.
And and so it like when those fears looks like an onion, when
you start peeling back those layers and giving them, you
(31:15):
know, the different, answering their questions, being there
and, and really like seeing themfor them.
Yeah. Like a pile of mush.
Absolutely. You, you hit it right on the
head with fear. The the most common, the most
common statement that a patient makes to me is that they fear
(31:39):
I'm going to tell them they're never going to be a mom.
Yes, and that is the prevailing worry for when they come in
patient today, she has regular menstrual cycles for years and
just the last month or so they became irregular and I told I
(32:00):
told them that I used to worry about that.
Why is she having regular periods all of a sudden?
And then I realized that so manyof my patients who have regular
periods a month or so before start having irregularity, and
it's presumably stress related. It's right before they see me.
(32:23):
They're at the height of worry, and stress can impact
reproduction. Yes, and you know, like you were
saying TikTok, Google searching,I would love to share, you know,
the acronym of fear we always say is false evidence appearing
real. And a lot of that comes from
(32:44):
seeing, you know, when you startyour algorithms on your phone
start to know you. So if you're searching like, why
am I not getting pregnant? Why, you know, am I having
fertility troubles? And then all of a sudden
everything infertility related starts popping up, videos,
doctors, everything. And then when you start to
almost live in that world, like,you know, we want to buy the red
truck and then all you see is the infamous red truck on the
(33:07):
road and you're like, this is a sign.
This is it. That's how you feel on socials
when you start scrolling throughall this stuff, you know, and,
and getting that fear by walkingthrough the doors to your, you
know, the IVF center and talkingto you Doctor T is huge because
you can put those fears at Bay and talk through it in an
educated way that also makes theperson feel like, OK, this isn't
(33:31):
so overwhelming. It's not the big elephant.
Now I can take a little bite at a time with someone, right?
Yeah, that very, very well put. Your patients, women talk to
other women and they are bombarded with unqualified and
sometimes misinformation and that worsens their spiral into
(33:55):
worry and feeling anxious. So, but it's difficult.
I mean, all they have to do is have Internet access and they
are finding so much online. And it's difficult for the
uneducated in terms of being trained in healthcare.
It's difficult for them to know what is real and what is not.
And that's where the physician has to be the teacher to be able
(34:19):
to dispel myths, give realistic,realistic expectations so that
we can work together toward their goal.
Yeah, that's so true. And I think, you know, you
starting to and how you are teaching the doctors coming up,
(34:40):
right? And you know, our future, which
is so beautiful and amazing and them understanding this level of
care and how you need to, you know, put things into
perspective for people and also educate at the same time.
But also, I always call dumbing down whenever I go into my
doctor. And it's not because I'm trying
to dismiss what I know or, you know, anything like that.
(35:03):
But even being a professional when you're living it, Doctor T,
did you feel like sometimes likethe information was just too
much and you can't really hear it or register it for what it
is? So you almost need it to, like,
be put so simply to you that then you can process it?
Yeah. No bingo.
When I go to a doctor, even today, I said, look, I'm a
little anxious about stuff. Don't even get into the big
(35:24):
words. Just give me something that I
could understand. Yeah, and I'm in the club and I
don't want to hear that. I I want to hear basics.
Don't give me the terms that I have to look up because I'm not
in the field that you're in. I want to know 5th, 5th grade
level. Let's make it nice and easy so I
can get it. Yes, yes, yeah.
(35:46):
When it's when it's ourselves too, it can be so overwhelming
and it's so personal. So yeah.
And hearing you, you know that you know enough to be dangerous
and all the different, you know,because you you oversaw
different fields in medical school and stuff.
But having those specialties too, I mean, that is huge and
just make. Think about.
Calling to a specialist. Yeah.
(36:07):
Think, think about also, which we haven't touched on, is the
support of the partner, the support of the partner.
Yeah, that's huge and instrumental.
The men always get, you know, the the dads always get
overlooked. Yeah.
Well, if they are with a heterosexual relationship or if
they're the same sex partner, yes.
(36:27):
You never want to leave them out, Yes.
You also don't know the impact of the fertility problem with
the partner emotionally. Now, if it's a heterosexual
couple, the man is definitely worried that it could be that
could be their involvement, which happens 30 to 40% of the
time. Yeah.
So making sure that you evaluatethe couple and also instilling
(36:51):
into the couple that this is nota blame game.
Whomever, wherever we get the diagnosis, let's be grateful
that we can address it and then move on.
We are not looking to see whose fault it is, we're looking to
see what we could do to solve this problem.
But the the person, let's say the woman who's trying to
(37:13):
conceive, the most important support that they get is from
their partner. And sometimes couples will grow
more distant as a result of this, either shame,
disappointment, self blame. There, there are so many
different reasons, but it's a couple's problem.
And I knew that from very, very early, from my own experience.
(37:34):
And so that's why we have a psychologist with us because of
recognizing that this is a physical, emotional and
financial commitment. Yes, because it is it, it's the
shame, blame and guilt game, youknow, that's what we call it
because it's it's feeling all those things.
But really from a perspective ofonly understanding where it's
(37:56):
coming from is really the medical intervention can come in
and then you can figure out the right protocols or different
avenues that you guys can look at.
But you're right, it, you know, it should be looked at together,
but there's so much distress between a couple.
I know when you share Doctor T at the beginning that your wife
and you went on a 10 year fertility journey.
I just like, you know, I was 2 1/2 with my husband and I just
(38:19):
think, oh, you know, that was a that was a lot on us.
Grateful we made it out, you know, and and are still together
stronger than ever. But it during those times, yeah,
we looked at each other and and then we always ask the questions
like were we enough without children together, you know, or,
or what does that, you know, those are questions that you
(38:40):
never thought early on in your marriage or in a relationship
that you would have to even question or ask yourselves.
And the more difficult it is to conceive if you're having
infertility, the more time you have to question everything.
Yes. Do we do genetic testing?
(39:00):
How advanced do we want to go? How many children do we want?
Do we even want to have children?
And then you get into a situation, some patients get
analysis paralysis. They are now they are evaluating
their situation to such detail that they don't know where to
go. And so I see that a lot.
If they consider a donation or sperm donation, they evaluate
(39:26):
the profile medically, family history, genetics of the donor.
I said, you know, I said really,you're going to know more about
this donor than you're going to know from me about each other.
But if they go very deep into ifthey do a deep dive, I said,
look, I said, you know, you really didn't think about this
with your partner like you are doing this right now.
(39:47):
And I think that you're you're blocking yourself from being
able to move on. So we get into that kind of a
conversation too. Wow, my goodness, I know your
patience just appreciate and admire you.
I'm sure Doctor T cause coveringall these bases with them and
(40:07):
you know, willing to take it on and take on these conversations,
but then also put your personal aspect and approach into it
about what everything and how you openly share.
Is huge. I mean, it just means the world
in those unforeseen and unknowable moments, you know,
when we're feeling like a fish out of water and out of control
and outside of our own bodies. And just to like have someone at
(40:30):
this level, Doctor T, going overthings, that's instrumental.
Well, thank you, Bernice. I, I was honored to be invited.
I, I just want to reiterate to your listeners, is that we have
to know when we relinquish control, there are things that
are out of our control. And while that's scary, it's,
(40:52):
it's a part of life. Even the, a young woman who's
pregnant is no guarantee of the outcome.
So we take the leap of faith because we're looking toward the
goal we want, but there are somethings that we have to leave up
to God and nature and what we can control.
We should do as best as we can. But what we can't, we have to
(41:14):
take that leap of faith and and work through our our mind and
body to be able to understand that things can happen.
But we did the absolute best that we could.
Yeah. Oh, that's so beautifully put,
Doctor T Thank you for that. Well, thank you so much for
(41:35):
sharing your insight, your expertise with us today.
Anyone listening, if you or someone you know is navigating
the challenges of pregnancy and fertility, baby loss all around,
remember you're not alone and support is available.
To get involved, raise awarenessand find other resources, visit
chasingtherainbows.org or Baby Loss awareness.org.
Your actions, big or small, can make a real difference for
(41:57):
families in need. And again, thank you so much,
Doctor T If anyone's looking to connect with him or to buy his
book, I would love, you know, for you to visit the IVF center
and out of Florida and you can find out more information there
and maybe even go visit Doctor T.
So thanks again Doctor T so muchfor being on today.
My pleasure, Bernice. Congratulations again for your
(42:19):
invaluable foundation and it's apleasure to be with you today.
Thank you. That means the world from you.
Thanks Doctor T play song.
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