June 18, 2026 • 50 mins
What happens to fathers when they lose a baby?In this powerful episode of Cry It Out Loud, host and founder of Chasing the Rainbows sits down with Robby Reider, co-founder of Sad Dads Club, a global grief support community for fathers navigating miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant loss.After the stillbirth of his daughter Lila in 2017, Robby found himself doing what so many grieving dads do: staying silent, staying strong, and suppressing his own heartbreak to hold space for his wife. What began as a raw, honest connection with two other fathers who knew that same silence eventually became Sad Dads Club, a movement reaching thousands of bereaved fathers worldwide.In this episode, we explore:• Why fathers are so often the "forgotten grievers" after pregnancy and baby loss• A father's unique grief journey after stillbirth, miscarriage, or infant loss• How losing a baby affects marriages and relationships — and what actually helps• The intersection of masculinity, mental health, and permission to grieve• What grieving dads truly need from their partners, families, and friends• How Sad Dads Club is redefining support for bereaved fathers globally• Finding community, healing, and hope after the unimaginableWhether you are a grieving father searching for words for what you feel, a partner trying to understand your husband's grief, or a friend or family member wanting to show up better, this episode is for you.This episode is shared ahead of Father's Day as a reminder that grief doesn't skip dads.Cry It Out Loud is hosted by Chasing the Rainbows, a 501(c)(3) national nonprofit providing free daily support for those experiencing infertility, miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, and pregnancy after loss.Learn more: chasingtherainbows.orgConnect with Sad Dads Club: saddadsclub.org
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Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
host Bernice Quisenberry. Today's conversation is one that
is long overdue. When a baby dies, the focus
(00:31):
often understandably turns to the mother.
But what about the father? The dads who are grieving too?
The dads trying to stay strong while silently falling apart.
The dads holding their partners through unimaginable heartbreak
while navigating their own. The dads who often feel
forgotten in a world that doesn't always know how to hold
space for male grief. At Chase and the rainbows, we
(00:53):
know grief impacts the entire family.
And while we provide free daily support for mothers and families
navigating infertility, any typeof pregnancy and infant loss and
pregnancy after loss, who we also deeply believe fathers
deserve space built specificallyfor them.
And that's why we are proud to collaborate with Sad Dad's Club,
an extraordinary organization providing support, community and
(01:14):
connection for grieving fathers all around the world.
Today we're joined by Rob Readerwho is the Co founder and
executive director of at Dad's Club.
Rob's story begins with profoundheartbreak.
In December of 2017, Rob and hiswife experienced every parent's
worst nightmare when they're first born.
Daughter Lila was stillborn and just months after or sorry, no
(01:39):
months before, 1 of Robbie's closest friends had also
experienced A stillbirth, something that, you know, barely
was understood at that time. And through that pain, something
extraordinary was born. What began as conversations
between grieving dads became SadDads Club, now a global virtual
community supporting thousands of fathers grieving from
(02:00):
miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, and child loss while
helping to find what it means togrieve as a man.
Rob, thank you for being here and for helping Createspace for
fathers who so often feel invisible in grief.
Bernice, thank you so, so much for always being so incredibly
and profoundly supportive of SadDad's Club and for inviting me
(02:21):
to chat a bit about what it is we do so that hopefully more
dads out there who need us can find us.
Absolutely. And this just means the world
and for, you know, our partners who at one point or another, I
felt helpless with and what I could do for him.
And so just having the dad's perspective and to have a
community where he can turn and others can turn is tremendous.
(02:43):
And I can't say that enough. Absolutely every parent who goes
through a loss like this needs support.
And yeah, it can be collective, but it also at times has to be
individualized because as human beings, I think we all grieve
differently. And so we're going to get more
into it. But yeah, everybody deserves
relief and it should not come ata cost.
(03:04):
That's right. That is right.
Yeah, Rob. So I would love for you to tell
the listeners, you know, about your love story and you know
what It was, you know, becoming parents and everything.
Sure. So my wife and I, Tahila, have
been married since 2013, and we did go to our undergrad.
We went to college together at Boden College, though we were
never romantic during our time there.
(03:25):
She was one year behind me. She had a boyfriend the whole
time. I'm a gentleman.
There was no way that I was going to try and disrupt that.
I'm a gentleman. But I always thought that she
was beautiful, that she was so fun and funny.
And as fate would have it, afterwe both graduated from Boden, I
was in a I was a professional musician in a touring rock band.
(03:48):
We did not get that far, but we did a lot of cool stuff and
during that time I was travelling a lot.
That is where Tehila and I reconnected and we were both
just smitten with one another and we were both in a position
where we did not have any existing committed
relationships. So that was where our love story
kicked off January of 2010 and we haven't looked back since.
(04:12):
One of the earliest things that she and I connected on or or
maybe not one of the earliest, but certainly early on, we both
had a strong desire to be parents.
So we knew through our relationship, the more serious
it was getting it as it definitely was leaning towards
and heading towards marriage, that having a family is
something we both deeply wanted.And we both also individually
(04:35):
from a young age knew that we wanted.
She always knew she wanted to bea mother.
I always do. From the moment I remember
understanding the dynamic of my father and me between my father
and me, I thought, oh, so I can be a dad one day.
That's awesome. Awesome.
That sounds incredible. That's the only thing I would
say that up to through adulthoodthat I've been certain of, that
(04:57):
I've wanted to be or do was be afather, have, have a family,
have children. Wow.
Oh, my goodness. That's so beautiful.
And so when you guys got marriedin 2013 and what did?
Yeah. So what did it look like when
you guys were trying to create afamily?
(05:17):
So we spent a few years just being happily married and
traveling and kind of flying by the seat of our pants.
But then when it came time to when when we decided that it
that it made sense for us to tryand have a family.
It was actually when we moved out of Boston, where we had
lived for five years. And we came back to Maine, which
(05:38):
is again, where we had met as undergrad students at Bowdoin
College, and we always knew we wanted to also end up back in
May. We just fell in love with it
during our time there as students.
And when we came back to Maine, that was when it made more
sense. We had a house at that time.
Friends of ours were also starting their families.
We were in our early 30s, and that was when we started trying.
(06:00):
And as it goes for many families, you start to try and
it just isn't happening as quickly as you would like, want
or expect it to. So we went through the process
of figuring out is there anything wrong?
Is there anything we need to have addressed, adjusted,
whatever it is to help our chances because it just wasn't
happening for us. And I wish I had a better
(06:20):
recollection of exactly what theoutpatient procedure that my
wife endured was. But I remember the doctor
referring to it as a quote UN quote reset.
And then there was some ovulation assistance medication
that came into play. But after both those things, we
were able to get pregnant with Lila.
I'd actually mentioned being a professional musician in a
(06:42):
touring rock band. I say that so like as as not
egotistical as I possibly can. It was just friends of mine and
I who hopped in the van and we had an opportunity after getting
signed to a major label for a few years to make a go of it.
But that band of mine, we, we stopped touring in 2010, but in
2017 we got back together and did a reunion show.
So I remember it was shortly after that that my wife and I
(07:05):
were able to conceive. I think that rock'n'roll energy
really gave me like increased, you know, machismo or whatever
it was. I mean, maybe, maybe the
medication and the procedure weren't as or were just as
important as stepping back onto the rock'n'roll stage.
But I add in that little detail only because I remember it.
Not because I add any sort of seriousness to what that
(07:27):
contributed to the conception, but that in early 2017 we found
out we were pregnant and as and as soon as we could, we wanted
to know the gender just for our own curiosity, not being able to
wait. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah. And so on your journey, you
went. How amazing is that, right?
(07:47):
You're newly married, so in love, excited for your first
born. Everything that you've hoped for
just resigned, you know, or getting back out there touring.
So it sounds like everything youwanted, like all of your dreams,
are starting to come true. I had a job I loved.
I had a great manager at the time at that job.
I, I was living in Maine, which was a dream of ours.
(08:10):
And now we were fulfilling another dream, which was
expanding our family. And when we found out it was a
little girl, I was so I would have been thrilled.
No matter what it's, it's a thrill unto itself.
And I, I never strongly had any preference for do I want a boy?
Do I want a girl? I just wanted a family and I
wanted a healthy, happy baby. And so as we're pursuing the
(08:33):
pregnancy journey, everything was moving along completely
normally. Everything was measuring
properly, growing properly, Everything was just as you would
want it to be, exactly by the textbook of what is a healthy
pregnancy. Yeah, wow.
So, yeah. So she was growing.
(08:54):
You guys were just so excited towelcome her, getting your house
ready. I mean, you made some big, major
life changes, too. At that time.
You moved, you know, from being in Boston back to Maine and all
of those things. So of course, you know, and
around your families and all of that too.
Yeah, it was, it was a lot of big change, but it felt like a
lot of things were lining up exactly as we hoped.
(09:16):
And, and we felt very incrediblylucky.
We were, we were fulfilling so many dreams and we had, it felt
a bit surreal when I reflect on it, to think about how was I
feeling during that time, which is sometimes hard to access,
having gone through the inevitable loss of being like,
well, what did I feel like? What was life like back then
when things felt certainly a loteasier, a bit more carefree.
(09:41):
And yeah, we, we continued on with the pregnancy and months.
We're going by and we're gettingthe house ready, we're getting
the car seat installed. All the things you do to
prepare, that gets you equal parts.
No, I shouldn't say equal parts.It gets you a little nervous,
but far more so, excitement is the overwhelming emotion that
you have surrounding that anticipated arrival of your
(10:03):
child. Yes, absolutely.
So you know from that, you know,getting your nursery ready,
getting the car seats in all of it, you know what led to Lila's
birth then? It was a Wednesday.
It was December 13th, 2017. And I remember the day so
(10:25):
vividly. There was snow already on the
ground, which is not a typical for Maine, but a little bit on
the early side. And it was just one of these
brilliantly bright days where the sun is completely
uninhibited and bouncing off of the snow to make it just this
blinding light. And we had the very first
appointment in the morning and this was a 38 week appointment
on December 13th, 2017. And it was, we were just
(10:50):
scrambling to get out of the house.
We had some sort of, you know, snip with one another about
whether or not we had to put thetrash or recycling out and we
were running like a little bit behind.
And I'm an obsessive, like punctual person, so I can be a
little bit of a nuisance when itcomes to even the the threat of
being late to anything. And I just remember it being so
(11:13):
it was, it was tense only for that reason, but because the
morning was so flustered and everything was so not rushed,
but every, everything was yeah, we, we there was no, there was
no moment where I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm in a ton of pain.
Oh my gosh, I'm bleeding. My water broke.
There was nothing like that. We just carried on with, again,
(11:35):
something as trivial as should the recycling or the trash be
put out before our appointment or are we going to miss getting
the curbside pickup? Anyway, I'm focusing on
something that is so not important about the story, but
we get to Yeah, the day was justcarrying on as any day.
And we were going in for the 38 week appointment.
(11:55):
And when we got there, we waitedin the waiting room and then we
were seen by the, I forget exactly who saw us.
And I, I feel a little bad aboutthat.
And I always quote myself say that I should really look it up.
But when we were brought into the back, they pulled out the
Doppler wand and I was sitting there and my wife was on the
(12:15):
table and her belly was exposed.And I knew how much time should
pass when you hear static versuswhen they pick up the heartbeat.
And it was just one of those audible again Doppler wands.
So you're just waiting. You hear the like.
When enough time had passed, I sort of straightened my posture
and like, heart sank a bit and started to think, like, why have
(12:36):
we not heard the heartbeat yet? And the deck goes and it's like,
you know what, Like, let me justgo make sure the ultrasound
machine is ready. Let's just do an ultrasound.
That'll be easier. And my wife looked at me.
We were both concerned. And she kind of used her hands
to feel around and said, oh, youknow, I, I, I can feel her move.
(12:56):
I, I can feel her in there, which I think both of us
probably knew might not be exactly true.
But when we were brought back into have a proper ultrasound,
they confirmed what was every parent's worst nightmare, which
had 38 weeks, that there was no heartbeat.
And they didn't say there's no heartbeat.
I just, I remember my wife was laying down on the while getting
(13:19):
the scan done and the technicianand the doctor just looked at
each other and shook their head.And the doctor took my wife's
hand. And that was when we knew that
there was no heartbeat. And I could, you know, see on
the monitor, we could hear that there was nothing.
And that was when they confirmedjust the absolute worst outcome
(13:39):
that, that anybody could anticipate or not anticipate.
It was then when the floor vanished.
It was then when the nightmare of the preceding moments began.
And I just remember putting my hands over my face and being
like, I don't want to move my hands.
Like I just, I want to keep themhere.
I don't want to, I want to hide from what is going on.
(14:03):
Like literally, figuratively, actually every.
I just there was no place I would have rather not been.
And that's only to say there wasno situation I would have rather
not been in. And you know, my wife's like
crying and screaming and I don'tremember how we even or what
(14:23):
door we went out of to leave theoffice.
I just, I have no recollection because they, they gave us
instructions saying we're going to call the hospital for you.
They'll expect you, you have to go home, you have to pack a bag.
You got to get ready to be at the hospital for a few days and
they'll be waiting for you when you get there.
And everything around the commutes of from the time it
(14:43):
happened, I just don't remember.Which honestly makes me think
that for these types of things, they should have some sort of,
not that anybody would want to be with anyone else, but from a
safety standpoint, I wonder if people should have some sort of
ride service figured out for families who go through this so
that they're not operating a vehicle on the road when they're
trying to make sense of something that is so
(15:04):
disorienting. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
Well, in those moments, you know, you're, you're expecting
that this is going to be the probably the final appointment
or close to and getting ready togo and and you know, find out if
she's like dilated yet or anything like that, right.
And you're the baby heartbeat. And then when this news hits,
(15:27):
the trauma of it, especially there's no warning.
It's out of nowhere and it's like you're having an outer body
experience. Like how is this happening to
us? Like how this like cannot be
like, what are you saying to us?Like we just felt her kick
yesterday, You know, we just felt her move.
All of those things. Like it's and it's so true.
Like anything after that, like all the trivial things like
(15:49):
driving, like going home, like all of that.
Like how do you remember that? Because like your mind is just
not with it. You know, it's spiraling.
You're having all these overwhelming moments and just
hear your wife scream and cry. Yeah, I had AI had a dream the
night before that my arms and I usually I forget a lot of my
(16:10):
dreams, but there have been dreams where Lila has appeared.
There been three in my life so far and that the first one was
that night where I had my arms in like a cradling position and
there was this floating newborn that I couldn't get to rest into
my arms. Like I kept trying to adjust my
arms to move into a position where she would actually be
cradled and she was just floating, like just out of
(16:31):
reach. And no matter how I adjusted my
body or my arms, there was no way for me to get her into my
arms. And that I feel like I've shared
this story a few times with people.
I do feel like that's the momentwhere she died.
That's just what I think. And again, to to have dreams
that are so constantly fleeting.Like I don't remember a lot of
(16:54):
my dreams shortly after waking up, but that one and the two
subsequent in the years after are ones that are so vivid that
I can still remember every detail of which I'm super
grateful for. Absolutely.
It's like you get to meet her inyour dreams.
Oh, it's so heart wrenching. It is.
I mean, yeah, they wreck like that.
That one, I was like, oh, weird,'cause I didn't know.
(17:17):
But in reflecting, I, I put together that that was probably
the moment that she died. But then in the two subsequent
where she appears, the age that she would have been those I've
like woken up from just so I can't, I can barely move.
They're so awesome because they're an ability.
They, they're an opportunity to reconnect with her, to see her
(17:37):
and who she would be at this age.
But they're so emotionally exhausting.
Like I've never experienced dreams that are so upsetting but
also like I'm like give me more of those.
Like I do, I want them even though the the physical and
emotional toll when I wake up isis heavy.
Yeah, 'cause it is. It's that connection to them and
(17:58):
to see them and to have that time that we don't get with them
here and to have that, you know,is so just meaningful.
But also like that heart, gut wrenching feeling and just it
does like physically, mentally, emotionally just takes so much
out of us. Yeah, it sure does.
(18:18):
Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's so in those
moments then you know, when you know you're going home, you're
scrambling, you're getting everything together to go to the
hospital. It's.
Yeah, it's it's chaos. Yes.
(18:38):
It's it was nuts packing up to like, what do we need?
How could we even think about what we ourselves need when we
have lost the very thing that weneed?
And how long are we going to be there and what decisions do we
need to make it when we get there?
And yeah, that that whole day was it just felt like it lasted
forever. It was, it was pretty, you know,
(19:00):
from going to the first appointment of the day and that
38 week appointment to then having Lila delivered at 10:49
PM the day, just like it just sprawled on it just would not
end. And they put us into a room when
we got there and some couple hours into being there and just
(19:21):
like existing in this space where I see my wife right there
across from me. And she's still so pregnant and
the way that I've seen her for the last almost nine months.
And I had a panic attack just being like, I couldn't.
That was the first panic attack I've ever had.
And I was so overwhelmed by seeing my wife and seeing her
(19:43):
pregnant belly and seeing this, this sign of what was
historically this hope and this love and this joy.
And not that the love went anywhere from that image.
It just was so unfathomable. It's like, wait, is she really
dead? Because I don't think I believed
it, but the more I thought aboutit.
(20:04):
The more I started to actualize it and that's when it became to
the point of overwhelming, just having a panic attack and being
unable to kind of console or control myself.
And we kept getting pushed back to the time where Lila was going
to be delivered because, you know, we were in their care.
We were in the hospital, we're checked in.
(20:25):
There are other things that werecoming up.
They were more imminent. But finally they saw us and my
wife opted for AC section and we, they wheeled her back and
then waited till I could come back and be there with her.
She was on a bunch of medications and just opted for
AC section and, and every drug imaginable to try and make it
the most manageable situation that it could be because it was
(20:48):
a nightmare. And I remember going back there
and she was obviously very medicated, which I was grateful
for. And I just sat there with her
and like, you know, talked to her and she seemed very calm and
very Zen and very centered and, you know, a little loopy.
(21:10):
And then they delivered Lila. And that was like the moment
that I was like, this is really real.
It was just, I can still see it so clearly this like it was
almost like there was a pillar of light like in the operating
room. And then they pulled her out and
she just looked like a sleeping newborn.
And it was so quiet. It was just the beeping of the
machines became completely faint, almost inaudible in my
(21:34):
mind. And that silence, because of
what I had envisioned being sucha moment with these anticipatory
sounds of crying and joy of justsilence.
And it was, it was so huge. That silence was massive.
And they had me come over and cut the umbilical cord.
And the hardest part, I think I,I mean, that was seeing her,
(21:58):
seeing Lila born and then seeingher put down and just like
lifeless was very traumatic. And then, you know, they
swaddled her and they gave her to my wife and she was still
obviously heavily medicated. And my wife was saying like, oh,
my baby, my baby, I love you so much.
And that was super hard to watchbecause I was like, wow, does
(22:21):
she is she so medicated that shedoesn't remember like what
happened or that she does she not remember that Lyla's dead?
Like it was, it was complicated to to put it mildly or simply.
And that delivery room, just that that was what for me became
that that was the point of the most intense trauma, I would say
(22:43):
for me was everything I saw. And with the blood and with the
lifelessness and the silence andthe not knowing if my wife at
that moment forgot that Lila died.
It was, it was so swirling and so intense.
It's, it's something I can pretty regularly if I return to
and go into detail like I will, I can make myself cry.
(23:04):
So if I'm ever cast in like a Hollywood movie and I need to be
able to cry in that Hollywood movie, I can, I can turn it on.
I, I, I can possess that skill. It's just cry on command because
that was so difficult. Luckily, through therapy and
EMDR, it's become easier to return to.
It just became something I couldn't touch for so long or
(23:24):
even really talk about. But it still is just so heavy.
And that was that, you know, marked another moment of OK from
here forward. And then there's the where do we
go? What's going to happen?
How long do we get with her? How dealing with her turning in
a way where it's like, OK, we have to go soon because they
(23:46):
can't even with a cuddle cot do like the cuddle cot has now run
its course. Like we can't.
She's changing. She's changing and that that is
exceptionally difficult. I once again back to commutes
like I have. I just don't remember leaving
the hospital at all. I don't remember if we took
stairs, elevator. I don't remember driving home at
(24:08):
the time. We lived very, very close to the
hospital. I mean, so close we could have
walked, but I have no recollection whatsoever of
leaving. And I think that's likely
because we didn't have moments where we left her alone.
And so that was like a definitive separation.
And I think that was pretty hardfor me to I I was just like,
(24:31):
wait, how can we leave her? How can we, how is how is this
it? How is this goodbye?
How is this? Until we picked up her ashes,
you know, at the Funeral Home down the road, but down the
road, both physically and down the road proverbially.
But yeah, yeah, that hospital and we were lucky we had an
incredible care team, but that was hell.
(24:52):
That was I I don't. I'm not a very religious person
at all, but I don't fear a hell anywhere else.
I feel like I had existed in it right there in so far as I can
imagine what hell would be. That was it.
Yeah, I know. And and really Rob, you know,
(25:15):
leaving hospital empty, armed, you know, having to plan a
funeral or plan, you know, cremation with a baby that just
days prior you weren't, you know, it's it's crazy like when
we get married, plan to have a family.
Never in a million years do we plan to have that unimaginable
(25:36):
worst case scenario happen to us.
And leaving the hospital knowingthat that's the last time
physically we'll ever see our children is just there just are
no words. It's it's awful.
It's yeah, we talk about it a lot in Sad Dad's club that that
like physically removing ourselves from being physically
(25:56):
with them forever in that that there is always there's there's
such an end point to their physical presence in your life,
which is really difficult. And certainly do things to keep
them with us through signs and spiritually and honoring them in
different ways. But that physical component is
(26:16):
still one we can't do anything to get back.
And so that's why we work so hard to really emphasize every
other way that we can keep theirpresence and and amplify it
wherever and whenever we can. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
Well, thank you for sharing. You know Lila's birth story.
You know her, everything about her in these moments.
(26:40):
So thank you. Oh, you're.
Welcome. Yeah, when so when you both were
leaving the hospital, of course,and that mental health, right,
just realizing like you literally were going through
hell on earth right there in those moments, Like, how did you
start to recognize or see in yourselves that maybe you needed
more, you needed a sense of community or people who
(27:02):
understood what you were going through?
Well, I think we were lucky in alot of regards, which is hardly
a word that people use when talking about something like
this. But I did have I, I, you know, I
knew we needed help from a professional.
I'd never done therapy leading up to losing Lila, which is not
at all a flex. It's more like, wow, I can't
(27:23):
believe that that was when I, I could have.
Everybody can stand therapy. I don't think it's a sign of
weakness. I think it's a good outlet and a
healthy 1 where people can. As adults, we have complicated
lives and we go through complicated things and emotions
are complicated. So having a dedicated space to
really figure those out for me, it allows me to return to life
(27:43):
in a more balanced and sensible and controlled way.
So as I mentioned, we were lucky.
I say I always put it that we had the fortunate misfortune
that one of my best friends fromcollege, Jay, who is a Co
founder of Sad Dad's club, 11 months earlier, he and his wife
lost their their second born their their second child, their
(28:06):
daughter Bella at 41 weeks. And so that was January of 2017.
We lost Lila in December of 2017.
So in that same calendar year and we were living very close to
one another. We had also gone to Bowden
College together and I, I was there for him as much as I could
be. And I saw how devastating this
loss was for his family and how complicated it was.
(28:28):
And I though, I, I, then I had someone I could go to
immediately and I had someone who was there for me even while
I was in the hospital. I had someone who took the car
seat out of my car and I, I had somewhere to go.
I had a net. I, I didn't hit the floor.
I didn't, I didn't fall all the way down.
I I had someone to catch me and 11 or rather seven months after
(28:51):
losing Lila through a mutual college friend, we were
introduced to Chris, who's another Co founder, the third Co
founder of Sad Dad's club. And the impetus of sad Dad's
club was that the three of us asfathers were spending a lot of
time together. And we realized and recognized
that this is an incredibly helpful resource for all of us
(29:12):
to have one another, to have a place where we can go and
actually say everything or say nothing, but no explanation
whatsoever is needed because we just inherently get it.
And whenever you connect with a lost at I, I always use like my
hands to describe this because like you meet someone as an
adult or as anyone and you, you start at this level.
But if you meet another lost parent, you're like there with
(29:32):
them just because you have this elevated sense of understanding
of what their life is like, or at least what they're going
through. So I might be jumping ahead
here, but that that was the impetus like that the three of
us spending a lot of time together and realizing like,
hey, this is really important and this is really great that we
have one another to lean on. And there are probably a lot of
(29:56):
dads out there who don't have anyone in their community or any
loved one who's ever been through anything like what
they're going through. And that's where alienation and
isolation and grief is going to manifest.
And that's when it gets really dangerous.
And that's what we want to, that's what we want to eliminate
with Sad Dads Club is we thoughtwe don't want anybody out there
going through this alone. We don't want somebody thinking
(30:19):
that this has only happened to them if they have nowhere to go,
if they have no one else to process that grief with, if they
don't have resources to other, you know, clinical or
professional mental health services that could help them.
It's a little scary to think what might happen to them and
what might happen to their life.Absolutely, Absolutely.
(30:41):
This is something, you know, so traumatic and happens to, you
know, young couples, different circumstances, whatever, but and
having, you know, spaces that are safe and feeling that sense
of connection, someone who actually understands what you're
going through or has been on thepath that you're going through.
There is nothing more powerful than that.
(31:03):
To hear it from someone like howdid you handle this situation?
How did you you know, handle this so you can find your own
way, make your own way, but understanding that you're not
alone in this and that you're not walking this path because
there's others of us who have but still birth infant loss.
All of that is not really talkedabout South understanding and
that's changing now right with sad dad's club, you know,
(31:26):
chasing rainbows all the things,but it's like to have that
community of of men lost dads who understand what that you're
going through like you've been on this path is so powerful in
that room. Absolutely and.
I've seen someone not long ago asked me how do men and women
grieve differently? Said I don't know, 'cause I'm a
(31:49):
man, so I, I, I, I, But in all seriousness, that was just to be
a little funny. But there I, I don't know that
we grieve that differently. I don't know that there is a
different internal like emotional and physical turning
and churning and pain and tension.
(32:10):
I just know that there is not aninvitation historically,
societally generationally for men to be really vulnerable or
to talk about what they're feeling.
And the adage of be a man, whichis defined historically as that
means grin and Barrett or whatever other saying of suck it
up or that's just not a realistic expectation of any
(32:33):
human being. And during the most dramatic
loss of their life. And I think they I, what I've
seen from the men in Sad Dad's club is there is a willingness
to be in touch with their feelings.
There is a desire to express things that are difficult to
have someone to talk to in moments where they feel really
low and really alone. And it's just a matter of
(32:56):
facilitating that space, nurturing that space, and making
sure that that space looks like one that is comfortable and
adjustable also for anybody who enters it.
And that just means like any waythat you show up in Sad Dad's
Club, you can be. If you feel in that moment that
you just want to listen, then you can just listen.
(33:18):
I don't if you have a whole bunch of stuff you want to get
off your chest, then the floor is yours.
We just cannot expect that in any one moment that everyone in
this community is going to feel like they're ready for the same
thing. And that's why we have to be
flexible with our space and we have to be.
I think that's what keeps dad's coming back too, is they know
that, as we say, the only expectation is there is no
(33:41):
expectation. As long as you conduct yourself
with respect for others there and you that that's really it.
That's like that's the, that's the ground level.
It's just respect and compassionand empathy and patience.
And we're so good at at giving that to each other.
We're still working on giving that to ourselves, which we talk
(34:04):
about often, which is so that's a conundrum right there.
I was like, and we say, hey, youwould ask me to be easier on
myself. So you should allow yourself to
be easier on yourself. But we're still working through
that one all together as a community, yes.
No, but it's so true. And I think you're right.
You know, societal norms, right,with how men historically have
(34:28):
been told to manage mental health or to grievous, like keep
the house going, keep things moving.
Like it's expected that the mom would be sad, right?
But like the dad needs to continue to go, go, go.
And in all reality, we're emotional beings, all of us, and
we don't operate as robots, and that's not who we are.
(34:48):
And. So to have that safe space, to
have that community turn to where all there is is respect.
Because right, like one day you're gonna feel a certain way,
the next day you might not, you know, But to just show up and be
there for one another and to respect one another's losses and
stories and journeys and to helpone another really is just
(35:08):
strength. And I think.
That so for me, and I know I've heard this from other dads, and
this is by no means to say all dads, but for me, even though
yes, I had somebody that I couldgo to immediately, but I also
wanted so badly to focus on my wife because that was the way I
could regain control. That was a way that I could be
(35:30):
helpful after losing complete control.
I had someone else I loved my wife who I could focus on.
She was physically healing and Ialso wasn't really ready to
confront and process again. I had someone I could go to, but
I didn't, I wasn't ready to get into it that way.
So there was a bit of delayed grief.
(35:50):
Not that I wasn't feeling it, I was just numb to it.
I guess that would exactly suggest I wasn't feeling it.
I, I knew it was there. I wasn't ready to dive into it.
And so being strong, focusing onmy wife, keeping the household
going, doing anything I could todistract myself.
Also, you know, drinking way toomuch, all these things became
(36:10):
the escape for the inevitable wanting or, or needing to really
get into it. And I think that expecting that
somebody is like ready immediately to get into
processing and digging through their grief is, is also
unrealistic. I think that men fall into maybe
the, again, from what I've heard, I, I can't speak for
every single man. I will never make a sweeping
(36:31):
generalization, but a lot of menneed that that buffer time
before they're ready to connect with another dad or to go into
it. They just have to kind of get
their feet beneath them. And then unfortunately, it
emerges in ways. I mean, we've had a bunch of
dads come through and be like, Ipunched a hole in the wall and
my wife was like, OK, you got todo something.
(36:53):
You got to you got to something's got to change here.
Sad dads club, like give it a try.
And a lot of them come in and think there is no way anything
could possibly help me for what I'm going through because this
is so heavy. This is so traumatic.
This is so dark. There is no way that sitting
with a bunch of other dads who have also been through a yeah,
sure, I get that, but there's noway it could help.
(37:17):
But miraculously, then it does. And that's a testament to all
the dads who are coming through our doors and all the dads who
are showing up for one another. It's, it's become this
unbelievable community of dads all over the world who are
showing up for support and who are also showing up to support
others. And it's a beautiful harmony
that I've never experienced anywhere else.
(37:40):
I'm a firm believer, always havebeen going to Quaker schools
growing up about what the power of community means, what it is
that everybody has something of of value to offer, that we are
all on the equal level. We are all there because we're
dealing with something incredibly painful and
complicated that's going to lastfor the rest of our lives.
And I think that really does bring everyone back to zero.
(38:00):
And that does create a space where there's just so much love
because there's so much desire to honor our children, keep
their story going and support one another through the moments
that feel so difficult that, youknow, getting out of bed is a
challenge. Absolutely.
(38:22):
And it comes out in other ways. And I think, Rob, that's really
important too, because it might not be that immediate help or
knowing that they need immediatehelp, but you know, punching
holes and walls, maybe drinking too much or, you know, different
on like. And at that time, maybe not
recognizing it because we did gothrough something, you know, so
horrific. But you know, when that starts
to become like the pattern or, you know, unhealthy, But for a
(38:45):
partner to maybe recognize that and say, Hey, you know, here's
this community that understands or is there for you, you know,
during this to turn to in a gentle way, right?
And and be able to cope in healthier ways.
You know what are some of those coping?
Services that. Is available through Sad Dad's
Club so. We have kind of we have two main
(39:09):
areas of impact our we have our non clinical grief support and
then our clinical grief support.So our mission statement is that
Sad Dad's Club helps fellow bereaved fathers navigate life
after loss by nurturing A supportive community and
providing access to mental health services of that last
line, nurturing A supportive community.
(39:30):
That is where we provide non clinical community based
peer-to-peer support, whether it's virtually or in person.
We have a Discord. We have a private channel on the
Discord app that is a free app for anybody unfamiliar and that
is active literally 24/7. There are dads all over the
world who are on that. If you reach out to us, you
attend one of our Zoom meetings.We give you an invitation link
(39:50):
to join that private channel. We have weekly Zoom sessions
that are large group based. We alternate.
We do every single Thursday at 8:30 Eastern and we alternate
themes every week. We have what's called Sad Dad's
Open Hour, which is an open floor discussion where if you
want to come turn your camera off and just listen, that's
totally cool. If you want to come to
(40:11):
participate and chat, you can dothat too.
We always have a suggested topic.
Anything from careers after lossto intimacy after loss to.
Navigating the holidays, stuff like that.
But we also always say, hey, if you've got something that you
has been weighing heavily on, you say the word and we can
pivot. We're nimble.
The space belongs to all of us. We also offer some more
(40:32):
specialized small group cohorts that take the place over a
certain number of weeks. We just implemented a letter
writing journey that's facilitated by one of our dads
who developed a really thoughtful and incredible
program and he takes you through5 prompts over 5 weeks where you
literally take a pen to paper. And I don't want to spoil the
surprise, but you can learn moreabout that on our website.
We just finished a small group cohort over six weeks for called
(40:57):
Fatherhood After Loss. That is for dads who have
experienced loss and subsequently went on to have a
healthy baby that is now at homebetween the ages of 0 and 24
months. So the idea there being that we
have a lot of dads in our community who don't have living
children. So we can't really focus in on
how do you navigate being a father after losing a child.
So we want to dedicate an intimate space.
(41:18):
We have a licensed clinical social worker who is
facilitating that space for us. We continue to, we're, we're
planning to continue to offer more of those and I'm getting
really specific about different non clinical offerings that we
have, but those are all of the things we do online, in person.
We have regional events hosted all over the country throughout
(41:41):
the year. We also do 2 retreats per year,
though next year we're probably going to do 3.
Historically the two retreats had been in Maine.
This year we did our first retreat in Lake Arrowhead, CA
earlier in May. And this fall we're going to do
a fall retreat in Maine, which is again where we've
historically hosted them. And on the providing access to
(42:03):
mental health services, we know that there is a disparity to
access there. And so not only do we want to
remove the financial barrier by paying for up to six sessions
per dad, but we also want to remove the logistical barrier.
So as an organization, Sad Dad'sClub partners with therapist who
have experienced treating a patient who has endured child
loss and, and some and a therapist who specializes in
(42:24):
grief. So we are partnering with
therapists all over the country to make sure that we are sending
our dads to the person best suited to treat them for what
they're going to them for. And we have found through GAD 7
and PHQ 9, which are, to anybodyout there who's not in the
professional mental health field, myself included, that
sounds like launch codes, but they are just a gauge of anxiety
(42:45):
and depression, and they're widely used in the mental health
space. And what we have found from
administering a GAD 7 and PHQ 9 survey at the beginning of these
six sessions and then at the very end of the final session is
that indeed this professional mental health intervention is
alleviating anxiety and depression in fathers.
So we are not saying choose one or the other, the non clinical
(43:08):
community based support or the professional mental health
support. We are saying this is what we
have. This is what we feel like will
give people the best chance and the most robust package for
healing. And our work is never done.
We're always thinking of new ways that we can meet dads where
they are. One of our dads came to us
recently and said, hey, could wehost like an art therapy thing
on Zoom where we can invite people if they want to just
(43:29):
watch. And then we can invite dads if
they want to share anything frommusic to to visual art to visual
art covers a lot of us about to say to pottery is pottery
considered visual art? I don't know see, but I I think
so too. So what whatever artistic outlet
you have that you wanted to share with people and talking
about how that connects to helping you process your grief.
(43:50):
All this to say, like we're in the midst of also formalizing
regional chapters so that we canmore regularly do these regional
events where we have high concentration of dads.
And I'm working with one of the dads in our community on
expanding that and formalizing it.
Rather, every dad who has an idea is welcome to share that
idea and we're going to try it because we are in control of our
(44:13):
community and we figure that if you have an idea that resonates
with you, it will probably resonate with other people.
So let's try it. And that is back where the
concept of this, this truly is acommunity.
Yes, I am, I am the sole currently the sole full time
employee of the organization, but I am only speaking on behalf
of it. What Sad Dad's Club is and what
(44:34):
we do and what is special about it is because of every single
individual father who shows up and continues to show up.
That doesn't mean that. And, and I don't say that to me
like, hey, if you come, you better keep coming back.
You're supposed to come if you feel like it helps you and it's
supposed to be there when you feel like you need it.
But we have such an incredible community of dads who are so
(44:57):
eager to see this grow and to see what we offer, be able to
meet any dad where they are, that again, if dad has an idea
to do something, let's try it. We're always going to try it,
absolutely. Absolutely, Rob.
I cannot say that enough. And I think that's why we
connect so well, because it really is that individualized
approach and also understanding that it's not just your voice or
(45:20):
my voice or this person's voice or that dad's voice.
It's really a community of voices because you don't know
who's going to resonate or connect with that voice and that
story because it might not be you, right?
But understanding, recognizing that maybe something that you
didn't need, but something that another dad needs like art
therapy. But that also speaks volumes
about your organization and how you guys are willing to evolve,
(45:44):
grow, expand based on what others need and not based on
what you're saying they need. Exactly.
We, we can't say definitively what every dad needs, but we
will try what we think is right and what other people suggest.
And as we see it working, we'll keep doing it.
And that's what we are committedto is trying to meet each dad.
(46:06):
I, we know we can't be everything to everyone, but we
can certainly try our best to meet dads where they are.
And that's what we're committed to.
Absolutely, Rob. That is so beautiful, you know,
for someone listening who you know loves a grieving father.
What should they do, say you know to to help them or to you
(46:27):
know, get them connected to sad Dad's club make?
Sure, they know that we exist. Don't push them to say, hey,
it's it's Thursday night. Are you going to sign on to
their Zoom? Just let them go with their own
pace. Make sure they know what we have
available, which I know I spouted off a whole bunch of
things, few of them are easy to remember, but just consider that
we have online based support regularly.
(46:50):
We have in person meetups as well as retreats, and we have
access to professional mental health services that we pay for
with therapists whom we're partnered with.
Just make sure they know how to reach us.
Sad Dads club.org. If you go to the connect and
contact tab that goes directly to my inbox.
Something that we are committed to is making sure that we're
getting back to dads in a timelymanner.
(47:12):
Usually if a dad reaches out, they're not going to to wait
more than 24 hours to get a response from us.
And when they hear back from us,they will have a list of
resources immediately available and an overview of what it is we
offer. Just make sure they know we
exist. That's what I would say to
anybody out there who loves the lost dad and who wants to help
them. The goal with sad dad's club, I
(47:34):
feel like I've always said the goal, the goal.
We have many goals clearly, but the the really like the ultimate
goal is to make sure that no dadout there who is navigating
child loss thinks that there's nothing out there for them.
So as long as they know, even ifwhat I think about almost every
Thursday after we conclude, one of our Zoom sessions is I wonder
who out there was about to come,but they didn't come.
(47:57):
But they still got the comfort knowing, OK, it's going to be
there again. And consistency is something
that we are committed to right from the jump.
When we started this, we said, if we can't be consistent and
reliable, then we better pack our bags and get and, and, and
quit now because people are coming to us in their most
vulnerable state and fragile state imaginable.
(48:18):
And so we are committed to beingconsistent.
So as long as a dad knows about us, as long as they know that we
have a Discord, that we have Zoom sessions, but we have dads
all over the country and even the world that they can connect
with in person if they want to, that's what they need to know.
And whenever they're ready, sad dadsclub.org or go straight to
the source info@saddadsclub.org and people can reach out
(48:39):
directly via e-mail. But we are always here.
This has to far outlive all of us and that is our ultimate
hope. Absolutely.
Rob, thank. You thank you so much and I'll
make sure in the description of this episode I will put all of
your contact information. So please, please, please,
anyone listening who feels, you know their partner, could, you
know, benefit from support or needing to know a space that
(49:02):
they can get support, you know, share this information with
them. And Rob, I just cannot thank you
enough for coming on here, sharing about your baby girl,
sharing her story, sharing so others don't feel so alone and
isolated and just thank you for all that you are doing to change
what is happening with maternal mental health in this space.
(49:23):
So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Right back at you, Bernice. Thank you for everything that
you're doing with chasing the Rainbows and supporting lost
moms everywhere out there. Thank you, Rob.
Thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your
vulnerability, and for helping us better understand something
that's so many people miss that group.
(49:43):
Fathers grieve, too. What stands out so deeply in
today's conversation is this grief does not belong to one
parent. When a baby dies, a mother
grieves. A father grieves.
A relationship grieves. And too often, dads are expected
to carry that pain quietly. But silence doesn't heal.
Community does. Conversation does.
Being seen does. And that's what you've built
(50:04):
through Sad Dad's Club. And here, you know, you're
helping to rewrite that story, reminding fathers everywhere
that they do not have to hold this alone and that asking for
support is not weakness, it's courage and strength.
And to every dad listening rightnow, whether you've experienced
any type of these losses, these traumatic losses, we want you to
know this. Your grief matters, your baby
matters, and you matter. If this episode today resonates
(50:28):
with you, share it with someone who may need to hear it.
And Rob, thank you again so muchfor making sure fathers
everywhere knows that they are not forgotten.
Until next time this is cried out loud, Thank you.
Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
host Bernice Quisenberry. Today's conversation is one that
is long overdue. When a baby dies, the focus
(00:31):
often understandably turns to the mother.
But what about the father? The dads who are grieving too?
The dads trying to stay strong while silently falling apart.
The dads holding their partners through unimaginable heartbreak
while navigating their own. The dads who often feel
forgotten in a world that doesn't always know how to hold
space for male grief. At Chase and the rainbows, we
(00:53):
know grief impacts the entire family.
And while we provide free daily support for mothers and families
navigating infertility, any typeof pregnancy and infant loss and
pregnancy after loss, who we also deeply believe fathers
deserve space built specificallyfor them.
And that's why we are proud to collaborate with Sad Dad's Club,
an extraordinary organization providing support, community and
(01:14):
connection for grieving fathers all around the world.
Today we're joined by Rob Readerwho is the Co founder and
executive director of at Dad's Club.
Rob's story begins with profoundheartbreak.
In December of 2017, Rob and hiswife experienced every parent's
worst nightmare when they're first born.
Daughter Lila was stillborn and just months after or sorry, no
(01:39):
months before, 1 of Robbie's closest friends had also
experienced A stillbirth, something that, you know, barely
was understood at that time. And through that pain, something
extraordinary was born. What began as conversations
between grieving dads became SadDads Club, now a global virtual
community supporting thousands of fathers grieving from
(02:00):
miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, and child loss while
helping to find what it means togrieve as a man.
Rob, thank you for being here and for helping Createspace for
fathers who so often feel invisible in grief.
Bernice, thank you so, so much for always being so incredibly
and profoundly supportive of SadDad's Club and for inviting me
(02:21):
to chat a bit about what it is we do so that hopefully more
dads out there who need us can find us.
Absolutely. And this just means the world
and for, you know, our partners who at one point or another, I
felt helpless with and what I could do for him.
And so just having the dad's perspective and to have a
community where he can turn and others can turn is tremendous.
(02:43):
And I can't say that enough. Absolutely every parent who goes
through a loss like this needs support.
And yeah, it can be collective, but it also at times has to be
individualized because as human beings, I think we all grieve
differently. And so we're going to get more
into it. But yeah, everybody deserves
relief and it should not come ata cost.
(03:04):
That's right. That is right.
Yeah, Rob. So I would love for you to tell
the listeners, you know, about your love story and you know
what It was, you know, becoming parents and everything.
Sure. So my wife and I, Tahila, have
been married since 2013, and we did go to our undergrad.
We went to college together at Boden College, though we were
never romantic during our time there.
(03:25):
She was one year behind me. She had a boyfriend the whole
time. I'm a gentleman.
There was no way that I was going to try and disrupt that.
I'm a gentleman. But I always thought that she
was beautiful, that she was so fun and funny.
And as fate would have it, afterwe both graduated from Boden, I
was in a I was a professional musician in a touring rock band.
(03:48):
We did not get that far, but we did a lot of cool stuff and
during that time I was travelling a lot.
That is where Tehila and I reconnected and we were both
just smitten with one another and we were both in a position
where we did not have any existing committed
relationships. So that was where our love story
kicked off January of 2010 and we haven't looked back since.
(04:12):
One of the earliest things that she and I connected on or or
maybe not one of the earliest, but certainly early on, we both
had a strong desire to be parents.
So we knew through our relationship, the more serious
it was getting it as it definitely was leaning towards
and heading towards marriage, that having a family is
something we both deeply wanted.And we both also individually
(04:35):
from a young age knew that we wanted.
She always knew she wanted to bea mother.
I always do. From the moment I remember
understanding the dynamic of my father and me between my father
and me, I thought, oh, so I can be a dad one day.
That's awesome. Awesome.
That sounds incredible. That's the only thing I would
say that up to through adulthoodthat I've been certain of, that
(04:57):
I've wanted to be or do was be afather, have, have a family,
have children. Wow.
Oh, my goodness. That's so beautiful.
And so when you guys got marriedin 2013 and what did?
Yeah. So what did it look like when
you guys were trying to create afamily?
(05:17):
So we spent a few years just being happily married and
traveling and kind of flying by the seat of our pants.
But then when it came time to when when we decided that it
that it made sense for us to tryand have a family.
It was actually when we moved out of Boston, where we had
lived for five years. And we came back to Maine, which
(05:38):
is again, where we had met as undergrad students at Bowdoin
College, and we always knew we wanted to also end up back in
May. We just fell in love with it
during our time there as students.
And when we came back to Maine, that was when it made more
sense. We had a house at that time.
Friends of ours were also starting their families.
We were in our early 30s, and that was when we started trying.
(06:00):
And as it goes for many families, you start to try and
it just isn't happening as quickly as you would like, want
or expect it to. So we went through the process
of figuring out is there anything wrong?
Is there anything we need to have addressed, adjusted,
whatever it is to help our chances because it just wasn't
happening for us. And I wish I had a better
(06:20):
recollection of exactly what theoutpatient procedure that my
wife endured was. But I remember the doctor
referring to it as a quote UN quote reset.
And then there was some ovulation assistance medication
that came into play. But after both those things, we
were able to get pregnant with Lila.
I'd actually mentioned being a professional musician in a
(06:42):
touring rock band. I say that so like as as not
egotistical as I possibly can. It was just friends of mine and
I who hopped in the van and we had an opportunity after getting
signed to a major label for a few years to make a go of it.
But that band of mine, we, we stopped touring in 2010, but in
2017 we got back together and did a reunion show.
So I remember it was shortly after that that my wife and I
(07:05):
were able to conceive. I think that rock'n'roll energy
really gave me like increased, you know, machismo or whatever
it was. I mean, maybe, maybe the
medication and the procedure weren't as or were just as
important as stepping back onto the rock'n'roll stage.
But I add in that little detail only because I remember it.
Not because I add any sort of seriousness to what that
(07:27):
contributed to the conception, but that in early 2017 we found
out we were pregnant and as and as soon as we could, we wanted
to know the gender just for our own curiosity, not being able to
wait. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah. And so on your journey, you
went. How amazing is that, right?
(07:47):
You're newly married, so in love, excited for your first
born. Everything that you've hoped for
just resigned, you know, or getting back out there touring.
So it sounds like everything youwanted, like all of your dreams,
are starting to come true. I had a job I loved.
I had a great manager at the time at that job.
I, I was living in Maine, which was a dream of ours.
(08:10):
And now we were fulfilling another dream, which was
expanding our family. And when we found out it was a
little girl, I was so I would have been thrilled.
No matter what it's, it's a thrill unto itself.
And I, I never strongly had any preference for do I want a boy?
Do I want a girl? I just wanted a family and I
wanted a healthy, happy baby. And so as we're pursuing the
(08:33):
pregnancy journey, everything was moving along completely
normally. Everything was measuring
properly, growing properly, Everything was just as you would
want it to be, exactly by the textbook of what is a healthy
pregnancy. Yeah, wow.
So, yeah. So she was growing.
(08:54):
You guys were just so excited towelcome her, getting your house
ready. I mean, you made some big, major
life changes, too. At that time.
You moved, you know, from being in Boston back to Maine and all
of those things. So of course, you know, and
around your families and all of that too.
Yeah, it was, it was a lot of big change, but it felt like a
lot of things were lining up exactly as we hoped.
(09:16):
And, and we felt very incrediblylucky.
We were, we were fulfilling so many dreams and we had, it felt
a bit surreal when I reflect on it, to think about how was I
feeling during that time, which is sometimes hard to access,
having gone through the inevitable loss of being like,
well, what did I feel like? What was life like back then
when things felt certainly a loteasier, a bit more carefree.
(09:41):
And yeah, we, we continued on with the pregnancy and months.
We're going by and we're gettingthe house ready, we're getting
the car seat installed. All the things you do to
prepare, that gets you equal parts.
No, I shouldn't say equal parts.It gets you a little nervous,
but far more so, excitement is the overwhelming emotion that
you have surrounding that anticipated arrival of your
(10:03):
child. Yes, absolutely.
So you know from that, you know,getting your nursery ready,
getting the car seats in all of it, you know what led to Lila's
birth then? It was a Wednesday.
It was December 13th, 2017. And I remember the day so
(10:25):
vividly. There was snow already on the
ground, which is not a typical for Maine, but a little bit on
the early side. And it was just one of these
brilliantly bright days where the sun is completely
uninhibited and bouncing off of the snow to make it just this
blinding light. And we had the very first
appointment in the morning and this was a 38 week appointment
on December 13th, 2017. And it was, we were just
(10:50):
scrambling to get out of the house.
We had some sort of, you know, snip with one another about
whether or not we had to put thetrash or recycling out and we
were running like a little bit behind.
And I'm an obsessive, like punctual person, so I can be a
little bit of a nuisance when itcomes to even the the threat of
being late to anything. And I just remember it being so
(11:13):
it was, it was tense only for that reason, but because the
morning was so flustered and everything was so not rushed,
but every, everything was yeah, we, we there was no, there was
no moment where I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm in a ton of pain.
Oh my gosh, I'm bleeding. My water broke.
There was nothing like that. We just carried on with, again,
(11:35):
something as trivial as should the recycling or the trash be
put out before our appointment or are we going to miss getting
the curbside pickup? Anyway, I'm focusing on
something that is so not important about the story, but
we get to Yeah, the day was justcarrying on as any day.
And we were going in for the 38 week appointment.
(11:55):
And when we got there, we waitedin the waiting room and then we
were seen by the, I forget exactly who saw us.
And I, I feel a little bad aboutthat.
And I always quote myself say that I should really look it up.
But when we were brought into the back, they pulled out the
Doppler wand and I was sitting there and my wife was on the
(12:15):
table and her belly was exposed.And I knew how much time should
pass when you hear static versuswhen they pick up the heartbeat.
And it was just one of those audible again Doppler wands.
So you're just waiting. You hear the like.
When enough time had passed, I sort of straightened my posture
and like, heart sank a bit and started to think, like, why have
(12:36):
we not heard the heartbeat yet? And the deck goes and it's like,
you know what, Like, let me justgo make sure the ultrasound
machine is ready. Let's just do an ultrasound.
That'll be easier. And my wife looked at me.
We were both concerned. And she kind of used her hands
to feel around and said, oh, youknow, I, I, I can feel her move.
(12:56):
I, I can feel her in there, which I think both of us
probably knew might not be exactly true.
But when we were brought back into have a proper ultrasound,
they confirmed what was every parent's worst nightmare, which
had 38 weeks, that there was no heartbeat.
And they didn't say there's no heartbeat.
I just, I remember my wife was laying down on the while getting
(13:19):
the scan done and the technicianand the doctor just looked at
each other and shook their head.And the doctor took my wife's
hand. And that was when we knew that
there was no heartbeat. And I could, you know, see on
the monitor, we could hear that there was nothing.
And that was when they confirmedjust the absolute worst outcome
(13:39):
that, that anybody could anticipate or not anticipate.
It was then when the floor vanished.
It was then when the nightmare of the preceding moments began.
And I just remember putting my hands over my face and being
like, I don't want to move my hands.
Like I just, I want to keep themhere.
I don't want to, I want to hide from what is going on.
(14:03):
Like literally, figuratively, actually every.
I just there was no place I would have rather not been.
And that's only to say there wasno situation I would have rather
not been in. And you know, my wife's like
crying and screaming and I don'tremember how we even or what
(14:23):
door we went out of to leave theoffice.
I just, I have no recollection because they, they gave us
instructions saying we're going to call the hospital for you.
They'll expect you, you have to go home, you have to pack a bag.
You got to get ready to be at the hospital for a few days and
they'll be waiting for you when you get there.
And everything around the commutes of from the time it
(14:43):
happened, I just don't remember.Which honestly makes me think
that for these types of things, they should have some sort of,
not that anybody would want to be with anyone else, but from a
safety standpoint, I wonder if people should have some sort of
ride service figured out for families who go through this so
that they're not operating a vehicle on the road when they're
trying to make sense of something that is so
(15:04):
disorienting. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
Well, in those moments, you know, you're, you're expecting
that this is going to be the probably the final appointment
or close to and getting ready togo and and you know, find out if
she's like dilated yet or anything like that, right.
And you're the baby heartbeat. And then when this news hits,
(15:27):
the trauma of it, especially there's no warning.
It's out of nowhere and it's like you're having an outer body
experience. Like how is this happening to
us? Like how this like cannot be
like, what are you saying to us?Like we just felt her kick
yesterday, You know, we just felt her move.
All of those things. Like it's and it's so true.
Like anything after that, like all the trivial things like
(15:49):
driving, like going home, like all of that.
Like how do you remember that? Because like your mind is just
not with it. You know, it's spiraling.
You're having all these overwhelming moments and just
hear your wife scream and cry. Yeah, I had AI had a dream the
night before that my arms and I usually I forget a lot of my
(16:10):
dreams, but there have been dreams where Lila has appeared.
There been three in my life so far and that the first one was
that night where I had my arms in like a cradling position and
there was this floating newborn that I couldn't get to rest into
my arms. Like I kept trying to adjust my
arms to move into a position where she would actually be
cradled and she was just floating, like just out of
(16:31):
reach. And no matter how I adjusted my
body or my arms, there was no way for me to get her into my
arms. And that I feel like I've shared
this story a few times with people.
I do feel like that's the momentwhere she died.
That's just what I think. And again, to to have dreams
that are so constantly fleeting.Like I don't remember a lot of
(16:54):
my dreams shortly after waking up, but that one and the two
subsequent in the years after are ones that are so vivid that
I can still remember every detail of which I'm super
grateful for. Absolutely.
It's like you get to meet her inyour dreams.
Oh, it's so heart wrenching. It is.
I mean, yeah, they wreck like that.
That one, I was like, oh, weird,'cause I didn't know.
(17:17):
But in reflecting, I, I put together that that was probably
the moment that she died. But then in the two subsequent
where she appears, the age that she would have been those I've
like woken up from just so I can't, I can barely move.
They're so awesome because they're an ability.
They, they're an opportunity to reconnect with her, to see her
(17:37):
and who she would be at this age.
But they're so emotionally exhausting.
Like I've never experienced dreams that are so upsetting but
also like I'm like give me more of those.
Like I do, I want them even though the the physical and
emotional toll when I wake up isis heavy.
Yeah, 'cause it is. It's that connection to them and
(17:58):
to see them and to have that time that we don't get with them
here and to have that, you know,is so just meaningful.
But also like that heart, gut wrenching feeling and just it
does like physically, mentally, emotionally just takes so much
out of us. Yeah, it sure does.
(18:18):
Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's so in those
moments then you know, when you know you're going home, you're
scrambling, you're getting everything together to go to the
hospital. It's.
Yeah, it's it's chaos. Yes.
(18:38):
It's it was nuts packing up to like, what do we need?
How could we even think about what we ourselves need when we
have lost the very thing that weneed?
And how long are we going to be there and what decisions do we
need to make it when we get there?
And yeah, that that whole day was it just felt like it lasted
forever. It was, it was pretty, you know,
(19:00):
from going to the first appointment of the day and that
38 week appointment to then having Lila delivered at 10:49
PM the day, just like it just sprawled on it just would not
end. And they put us into a room when
we got there and some couple hours into being there and just
(19:21):
like existing in this space where I see my wife right there
across from me. And she's still so pregnant and
the way that I've seen her for the last almost nine months.
And I had a panic attack just being like, I couldn't.
That was the first panic attack I've ever had.
And I was so overwhelmed by seeing my wife and seeing her
(19:43):
pregnant belly and seeing this, this sign of what was
historically this hope and this love and this joy.
And not that the love went anywhere from that image.
It just was so unfathomable. It's like, wait, is she really
dead? Because I don't think I believed
it, but the more I thought aboutit.
(20:04):
The more I started to actualize it and that's when it became to
the point of overwhelming, just having a panic attack and being
unable to kind of console or control myself.
And we kept getting pushed back to the time where Lila was going
to be delivered because, you know, we were in their care.
We were in the hospital, we're checked in.
(20:25):
There are other things that werecoming up.
They were more imminent. But finally they saw us and my
wife opted for AC section and we, they wheeled her back and
then waited till I could come back and be there with her.
She was on a bunch of medications and just opted for
AC section and, and every drug imaginable to try and make it
the most manageable situation that it could be because it was
(20:48):
a nightmare. And I remember going back there
and she was obviously very medicated, which I was grateful
for. And I just sat there with her
and like, you know, talked to her and she seemed very calm and
very Zen and very centered and, you know, a little loopy.
(21:10):
And then they delivered Lila. And that was like the moment
that I was like, this is really real.
It was just, I can still see it so clearly this like it was
almost like there was a pillar of light like in the operating
room. And then they pulled her out and
she just looked like a sleeping newborn.
And it was so quiet. It was just the beeping of the
machines became completely faint, almost inaudible in my
(21:34):
mind. And that silence, because of
what I had envisioned being sucha moment with these anticipatory
sounds of crying and joy of justsilence.
And it was, it was so huge. That silence was massive.
And they had me come over and cut the umbilical cord.
And the hardest part, I think I,I mean, that was seeing her,
(21:58):
seeing Lila born and then seeingher put down and just like
lifeless was very traumatic. And then, you know, they
swaddled her and they gave her to my wife and she was still
obviously heavily medicated. And my wife was saying like, oh,
my baby, my baby, I love you so much.
And that was super hard to watchbecause I was like, wow, does
(22:21):
she is she so medicated that shedoesn't remember like what
happened or that she does she not remember that Lyla's dead?
Like it was, it was complicated to to put it mildly or simply.
And that delivery room, just that that was what for me became
that that was the point of the most intense trauma, I would say
(22:43):
for me was everything I saw. And with the blood and with the
lifelessness and the silence andthe not knowing if my wife at
that moment forgot that Lila died.
It was, it was so swirling and so intense.
It's, it's something I can pretty regularly if I return to
and go into detail like I will, I can make myself cry.
(23:04):
So if I'm ever cast in like a Hollywood movie and I need to be
able to cry in that Hollywood movie, I can, I can turn it on.
I, I, I can possess that skill. It's just cry on command because
that was so difficult. Luckily, through therapy and
EMDR, it's become easier to return to.
It just became something I couldn't touch for so long or
(23:24):
even really talk about. But it still is just so heavy.
And that was that, you know, marked another moment of OK from
here forward. And then there's the where do we
go? What's going to happen?
How long do we get with her? How dealing with her turning in
a way where it's like, OK, we have to go soon because they
(23:46):
can't even with a cuddle cot do like the cuddle cot has now run
its course. Like we can't.
She's changing. She's changing and that that is
exceptionally difficult. I once again back to commutes
like I have. I just don't remember leaving
the hospital at all. I don't remember if we took
stairs, elevator. I don't remember driving home at
(24:08):
the time. We lived very, very close to the
hospital. I mean, so close we could have
walked, but I have no recollection whatsoever of
leaving. And I think that's likely
because we didn't have moments where we left her alone.
And so that was like a definitive separation.
And I think that was pretty hardfor me to I I was just like,
(24:31):
wait, how can we leave her? How can we, how is how is this
it? How is this goodbye?
How is this? Until we picked up her ashes,
you know, at the Funeral Home down the road, but down the
road, both physically and down the road proverbially.
But yeah, yeah, that hospital and we were lucky we had an
incredible care team, but that was hell.
(24:52):
That was I I don't. I'm not a very religious person
at all, but I don't fear a hell anywhere else.
I feel like I had existed in it right there in so far as I can
imagine what hell would be. That was it.
Yeah, I know. And and really Rob, you know,
(25:15):
leaving hospital empty, armed, you know, having to plan a
funeral or plan, you know, cremation with a baby that just
days prior you weren't, you know, it's it's crazy like when
we get married, plan to have a family.
Never in a million years do we plan to have that unimaginable
(25:36):
worst case scenario happen to us.
And leaving the hospital knowingthat that's the last time
physically we'll ever see our children is just there just are
no words. It's it's awful.
It's yeah, we talk about it a lot in Sad Dad's club that that
like physically removing ourselves from being physically
(25:56):
with them forever in that that there is always there's there's
such an end point to their physical presence in your life,
which is really difficult. And certainly do things to keep
them with us through signs and spiritually and honoring them in
different ways. But that physical component is
(26:16):
still one we can't do anything to get back.
And so that's why we work so hard to really emphasize every
other way that we can keep theirpresence and and amplify it
wherever and whenever we can. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
Well, thank you for sharing. You know Lila's birth story.
You know her, everything about her in these moments.
(26:40):
So thank you. Oh, you're.
Welcome. Yeah, when so when you both were
leaving the hospital, of course,and that mental health, right,
just realizing like you literally were going through
hell on earth right there in those moments, Like, how did you
start to recognize or see in yourselves that maybe you needed
more, you needed a sense of community or people who
(27:02):
understood what you were going through?
Well, I think we were lucky in alot of regards, which is hardly
a word that people use when talking about something like
this. But I did have I, I, you know, I
knew we needed help from a professional.
I'd never done therapy leading up to losing Lila, which is not
at all a flex. It's more like, wow, I can't
(27:23):
believe that that was when I, I could have.
Everybody can stand therapy. I don't think it's a sign of
weakness. I think it's a good outlet and a
healthy 1 where people can. As adults, we have complicated
lives and we go through complicated things and emotions
are complicated. So having a dedicated space to
really figure those out for me, it allows me to return to life
(27:43):
in a more balanced and sensible and controlled way.
So as I mentioned, we were lucky.
I say I always put it that we had the fortunate misfortune
that one of my best friends fromcollege, Jay, who is a Co
founder of Sad Dad's club, 11 months earlier, he and his wife
lost their their second born their their second child, their
(28:06):
daughter Bella at 41 weeks. And so that was January of 2017.
We lost Lila in December of 2017.
So in that same calendar year and we were living very close to
one another. We had also gone to Bowden
College together and I, I was there for him as much as I could
be. And I saw how devastating this
loss was for his family and how complicated it was.
(28:28):
And I though, I, I, then I had someone I could go to
immediately and I had someone who was there for me even while
I was in the hospital. I had someone who took the car
seat out of my car and I, I had somewhere to go.
I had a net. I, I didn't hit the floor.
I didn't, I didn't fall all the way down.
I I had someone to catch me and 11 or rather seven months after
(28:51):
losing Lila through a mutual college friend, we were
introduced to Chris, who's another Co founder, the third Co
founder of Sad Dad's club. And the impetus of sad Dad's
club was that the three of us asfathers were spending a lot of
time together. And we realized and recognized
that this is an incredibly helpful resource for all of us
(29:12):
to have one another, to have a place where we can go and
actually say everything or say nothing, but no explanation
whatsoever is needed because we just inherently get it.
And whenever you connect with a lost at I, I always use like my
hands to describe this because like you meet someone as an
adult or as anyone and you, you start at this level.
But if you meet another lost parent, you're like there with
(29:32):
them just because you have this elevated sense of understanding
of what their life is like, or at least what they're going
through. So I might be jumping ahead
here, but that that was the impetus like that the three of
us spending a lot of time together and realizing like,
hey, this is really important and this is really great that we
have one another to lean on. And there are probably a lot of
(29:56):
dads out there who don't have anyone in their community or any
loved one who's ever been through anything like what
they're going through. And that's where alienation and
isolation and grief is going to manifest.
And that's when it gets really dangerous.
And that's what we want to, that's what we want to eliminate
with Sad Dads Club is we thoughtwe don't want anybody out there
going through this alone. We don't want somebody thinking
(30:19):
that this has only happened to them if they have nowhere to go,
if they have no one else to process that grief with, if they
don't have resources to other, you know, clinical or
professional mental health services that could help them.
It's a little scary to think what might happen to them and
what might happen to their life.Absolutely, Absolutely.
(30:41):
This is something, you know, so traumatic and happens to, you
know, young couples, different circumstances, whatever, but and
having, you know, spaces that are safe and feeling that sense
of connection, someone who actually understands what you're
going through or has been on thepath that you're going through.
There is nothing more powerful than that.
(31:03):
To hear it from someone like howdid you handle this situation?
How did you you know, handle this so you can find your own
way, make your own way, but understanding that you're not
alone in this and that you're not walking this path because
there's others of us who have but still birth infant loss.
All of that is not really talkedabout South understanding and
that's changing now right with sad dad's club, you know,
(31:26):
chasing rainbows all the things,but it's like to have that
community of of men lost dads who understand what that you're
going through like you've been on this path is so powerful in
that room. Absolutely and.
I've seen someone not long ago asked me how do men and women
grieve differently? Said I don't know, 'cause I'm a
(31:49):
man, so I, I, I, I, But in all seriousness, that was just to be
a little funny. But there I, I don't know that
we grieve that differently. I don't know that there is a
different internal like emotional and physical turning
and churning and pain and tension.
(32:10):
I just know that there is not aninvitation historically,
societally generationally for men to be really vulnerable or
to talk about what they're feeling.
And the adage of be a man, whichis defined historically as that
means grin and Barrett or whatever other saying of suck it
up or that's just not a realistic expectation of any
(32:33):
human being. And during the most dramatic
loss of their life. And I think they I, what I've
seen from the men in Sad Dad's club is there is a willingness
to be in touch with their feelings.
There is a desire to express things that are difficult to
have someone to talk to in moments where they feel really
low and really alone. And it's just a matter of
(32:56):
facilitating that space, nurturing that space, and making
sure that that space looks like one that is comfortable and
adjustable also for anybody who enters it.
And that just means like any waythat you show up in Sad Dad's
Club, you can be. If you feel in that moment that
you just want to listen, then you can just listen.
(33:18):
I don't if you have a whole bunch of stuff you want to get
off your chest, then the floor is yours.
We just cannot expect that in any one moment that everyone in
this community is going to feel like they're ready for the same
thing. And that's why we have to be
flexible with our space and we have to be.
I think that's what keeps dad's coming back too, is they know
that, as we say, the only expectation is there is no
(33:41):
expectation. As long as you conduct yourself
with respect for others there and you that that's really it.
That's like that's the, that's the ground level.
It's just respect and compassionand empathy and patience.
And we're so good at at giving that to each other.
We're still working on giving that to ourselves, which we talk
(34:04):
about often, which is so that's a conundrum right there.
I was like, and we say, hey, youwould ask me to be easier on
myself. So you should allow yourself to
be easier on yourself. But we're still working through
that one all together as a community, yes.
No, but it's so true. And I think you're right.
You know, societal norms, right,with how men historically have
(34:28):
been told to manage mental health or to grievous, like keep
the house going, keep things moving.
Like it's expected that the mom would be sad, right?
But like the dad needs to continue to go, go, go.
And in all reality, we're emotional beings, all of us, and
we don't operate as robots, and that's not who we are.
(34:48):
And. So to have that safe space, to
have that community turn to where all there is is respect.
Because right, like one day you're gonna feel a certain way,
the next day you might not, you know, But to just show up and be
there for one another and to respect one another's losses and
stories and journeys and to helpone another really is just
(35:08):
strength. And I think.
That so for me, and I know I've heard this from other dads, and
this is by no means to say all dads, but for me, even though
yes, I had somebody that I couldgo to immediately, but I also
wanted so badly to focus on my wife because that was the way I
could regain control. That was a way that I could be
(35:30):
helpful after losing complete control.
I had someone else I loved my wife who I could focus on.
She was physically healing and Ialso wasn't really ready to
confront and process again. I had someone I could go to, but
I didn't, I wasn't ready to get into it that way.
So there was a bit of delayed grief.
(35:50):
Not that I wasn't feeling it, I was just numb to it.
I guess that would exactly suggest I wasn't feeling it.
I, I knew it was there. I wasn't ready to dive into it.
And so being strong, focusing onmy wife, keeping the household
going, doing anything I could todistract myself.
Also, you know, drinking way toomuch, all these things became
(36:10):
the escape for the inevitable wanting or, or needing to really
get into it. And I think that expecting that
somebody is like ready immediately to get into
processing and digging through their grief is, is also
unrealistic. I think that men fall into maybe
the, again, from what I've heard, I, I can't speak for
every single man. I will never make a sweeping
(36:31):
generalization, but a lot of menneed that that buffer time
before they're ready to connect with another dad or to go into
it. They just have to kind of get
their feet beneath them. And then unfortunately, it
emerges in ways. I mean, we've had a bunch of
dads come through and be like, Ipunched a hole in the wall and
my wife was like, OK, you got todo something.
(36:53):
You got to you got to something's got to change here.
Sad dads club, like give it a try.
And a lot of them come in and think there is no way anything
could possibly help me for what I'm going through because this
is so heavy. This is so traumatic.
This is so dark. There is no way that sitting
with a bunch of other dads who have also been through a yeah,
sure, I get that, but there's noway it could help.
(37:17):
But miraculously, then it does. And that's a testament to all
the dads who are coming through our doors and all the dads who
are showing up for one another. It's, it's become this
unbelievable community of dads all over the world who are
showing up for support and who are also showing up to support
others. And it's a beautiful harmony
that I've never experienced anywhere else.
(37:40):
I'm a firm believer, always havebeen going to Quaker schools
growing up about what the power of community means, what it is
that everybody has something of of value to offer, that we are
all on the equal level. We are all there because we're
dealing with something incredibly painful and
complicated that's going to lastfor the rest of our lives.
And I think that really does bring everyone back to zero.
(38:00):
And that does create a space where there's just so much love
because there's so much desire to honor our children, keep
their story going and support one another through the moments
that feel so difficult that, youknow, getting out of bed is a
challenge. Absolutely.
(38:22):
And it comes out in other ways. And I think, Rob, that's really
important too, because it might not be that immediate help or
knowing that they need immediatehelp, but you know, punching
holes and walls, maybe drinking too much or, you know, different
on like. And at that time, maybe not
recognizing it because we did gothrough something, you know, so
horrific. But you know, when that starts
to become like the pattern or, you know, unhealthy, But for a
(38:45):
partner to maybe recognize that and say, Hey, you know, here's
this community that understands or is there for you, you know,
during this to turn to in a gentle way, right?
And and be able to cope in healthier ways.
You know what are some of those coping?
Services that. Is available through Sad Dad's
Club so. We have kind of we have two main
(39:09):
areas of impact our we have our non clinical grief support and
then our clinical grief support.So our mission statement is that
Sad Dad's Club helps fellow bereaved fathers navigate life
after loss by nurturing A supportive community and
providing access to mental health services of that last
line, nurturing A supportive community.
(39:30):
That is where we provide non clinical community based
peer-to-peer support, whether it's virtually or in person.
We have a Discord. We have a private channel on the
Discord app that is a free app for anybody unfamiliar and that
is active literally 24/7. There are dads all over the
world who are on that. If you reach out to us, you
attend one of our Zoom meetings.We give you an invitation link
(39:50):
to join that private channel. We have weekly Zoom sessions
that are large group based. We alternate.
We do every single Thursday at 8:30 Eastern and we alternate
themes every week. We have what's called Sad Dad's
Open Hour, which is an open floor discussion where if you
want to come turn your camera off and just listen, that's
totally cool. If you want to come to
(40:11):
participate and chat, you can dothat too.
We always have a suggested topic.
Anything from careers after lossto intimacy after loss to.
Navigating the holidays, stuff like that.
But we also always say, hey, if you've got something that you
has been weighing heavily on, you say the word and we can
pivot. We're nimble.
The space belongs to all of us. We also offer some more
(40:32):
specialized small group cohorts that take the place over a
certain number of weeks. We just implemented a letter
writing journey that's facilitated by one of our dads
who developed a really thoughtful and incredible
program and he takes you through5 prompts over 5 weeks where you
literally take a pen to paper. And I don't want to spoil the
surprise, but you can learn moreabout that on our website.
We just finished a small group cohort over six weeks for called
(40:57):
Fatherhood After Loss. That is for dads who have
experienced loss and subsequently went on to have a
healthy baby that is now at homebetween the ages of 0 and 24
months. So the idea there being that we
have a lot of dads in our community who don't have living
children. So we can't really focus in on
how do you navigate being a father after losing a child.
So we want to dedicate an intimate space.
(41:18):
We have a licensed clinical social worker who is
facilitating that space for us. We continue to, we're, we're
planning to continue to offer more of those and I'm getting
really specific about different non clinical offerings that we
have, but those are all of the things we do online, in person.
We have regional events hosted all over the country throughout
(41:41):
the year. We also do 2 retreats per year,
though next year we're probably going to do 3.
Historically the two retreats had been in Maine.
This year we did our first retreat in Lake Arrowhead, CA
earlier in May. And this fall we're going to do
a fall retreat in Maine, which is again where we've
historically hosted them. And on the providing access to
(42:03):
mental health services, we know that there is a disparity to
access there. And so not only do we want to
remove the financial barrier by paying for up to six sessions
per dad, but we also want to remove the logistical barrier.
So as an organization, Sad Dad'sClub partners with therapist who
have experienced treating a patient who has endured child
loss and, and some and a therapist who specializes in
(42:24):
grief. So we are partnering with
therapists all over the country to make sure that we are sending
our dads to the person best suited to treat them for what
they're going to them for. And we have found through GAD 7
and PHQ 9, which are, to anybodyout there who's not in the
professional mental health field, myself included, that
sounds like launch codes, but they are just a gauge of anxiety
(42:45):
and depression, and they're widely used in the mental health
space. And what we have found from
administering a GAD 7 and PHQ 9 survey at the beginning of these
six sessions and then at the very end of the final session is
that indeed this professional mental health intervention is
alleviating anxiety and depression in fathers.
So we are not saying choose one or the other, the non clinical
(43:08):
community based support or the professional mental health
support. We are saying this is what we
have. This is what we feel like will
give people the best chance and the most robust package for
healing. And our work is never done.
We're always thinking of new ways that we can meet dads where
they are. One of our dads came to us
recently and said, hey, could wehost like an art therapy thing
on Zoom where we can invite people if they want to just
(43:29):
watch. And then we can invite dads if
they want to share anything frommusic to to visual art to visual
art covers a lot of us about to say to pottery is pottery
considered visual art? I don't know see, but I I think
so too. So what whatever artistic outlet
you have that you wanted to share with people and talking
about how that connects to helping you process your grief.
(43:50):
All this to say, like we're in the midst of also formalizing
regional chapters so that we canmore regularly do these regional
events where we have high concentration of dads.
And I'm working with one of the dads in our community on
expanding that and formalizing it.
Rather, every dad who has an idea is welcome to share that
idea and we're going to try it because we are in control of our
(44:13):
community and we figure that if you have an idea that resonates
with you, it will probably resonate with other people.
So let's try it. And that is back where the
concept of this, this truly is acommunity.
Yes, I am, I am the sole currently the sole full time
employee of the organization, but I am only speaking on behalf
of it. What Sad Dad's Club is and what
(44:34):
we do and what is special about it is because of every single
individual father who shows up and continues to show up.
That doesn't mean that. And, and I don't say that to me
like, hey, if you come, you better keep coming back.
You're supposed to come if you feel like it helps you and it's
supposed to be there when you feel like you need it.
But we have such an incredible community of dads who are so
(44:57):
eager to see this grow and to see what we offer, be able to
meet any dad where they are, that again, if dad has an idea
to do something, let's try it. We're always going to try it,
absolutely. Absolutely, Rob.
I cannot say that enough. And I think that's why we
connect so well, because it really is that individualized
approach and also understanding that it's not just your voice or
(45:20):
my voice or this person's voice or that dad's voice.
It's really a community of voices because you don't know
who's going to resonate or connect with that voice and that
story because it might not be you, right?
But understanding, recognizing that maybe something that you
didn't need, but something that another dad needs like art
therapy. But that also speaks volumes
about your organization and how you guys are willing to evolve,
(45:44):
grow, expand based on what others need and not based on
what you're saying they need. Exactly.
We, we can't say definitively what every dad needs, but we
will try what we think is right and what other people suggest.
And as we see it working, we'll keep doing it.
And that's what we are committedto is trying to meet each dad.
(46:06):
I, we know we can't be everything to everyone, but we
can certainly try our best to meet dads where they are.
And that's what we're committed to.
Absolutely, Rob. That is so beautiful, you know,
for someone listening who you know loves a grieving father.
What should they do, say you know to to help them or to you
(46:27):
know, get them connected to sad Dad's club make?
Sure, they know that we exist. Don't push them to say, hey,
it's it's Thursday night. Are you going to sign on to
their Zoom? Just let them go with their own
pace. Make sure they know what we have
available, which I know I spouted off a whole bunch of
things, few of them are easy to remember, but just consider that
we have online based support regularly.
(46:50):
We have in person meetups as well as retreats, and we have
access to professional mental health services that we pay for
with therapists whom we're partnered with.
Just make sure they know how to reach us.
Sad Dads club.org. If you go to the connect and
contact tab that goes directly to my inbox.
Something that we are committed to is making sure that we're
getting back to dads in a timelymanner.
(47:12):
Usually if a dad reaches out, they're not going to to wait
more than 24 hours to get a response from us.
And when they hear back from us,they will have a list of
resources immediately available and an overview of what it is we
offer. Just make sure they know we
exist. That's what I would say to
anybody out there who loves the lost dad and who wants to help
them. The goal with sad dad's club, I
(47:34):
feel like I've always said the goal, the goal.
We have many goals clearly, but the the really like the ultimate
goal is to make sure that no dadout there who is navigating
child loss thinks that there's nothing out there for them.
So as long as they know, even ifwhat I think about almost every
Thursday after we conclude, one of our Zoom sessions is I wonder
who out there was about to come,but they didn't come.
(47:57):
But they still got the comfort knowing, OK, it's going to be
there again. And consistency is something
that we are committed to right from the jump.
When we started this, we said, if we can't be consistent and
reliable, then we better pack our bags and get and, and, and
quit now because people are coming to us in their most
vulnerable state and fragile state imaginable.
(48:18):
And so we are committed to beingconsistent.
So as long as a dad knows about us, as long as they know that we
have a Discord, that we have Zoom sessions, but we have dads
all over the country and even the world that they can connect
with in person if they want to, that's what they need to know.
And whenever they're ready, sad dadsclub.org or go straight to
the source info@saddadsclub.org and people can reach out
(48:39):
directly via e-mail. But we are always here.
This has to far outlive all of us and that is our ultimate
hope. Absolutely.
Rob, thank. You thank you so much and I'll
make sure in the description of this episode I will put all of
your contact information. So please, please, please,
anyone listening who feels, you know their partner, could, you
know, benefit from support or needing to know a space that
(49:02):
they can get support, you know, share this information with
them. And Rob, I just cannot thank you
enough for coming on here, sharing about your baby girl,
sharing her story, sharing so others don't feel so alone and
isolated and just thank you for all that you are doing to change
what is happening with maternal mental health in this space.
(49:23):
So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Right back at you, Bernice. Thank you for everything that
you're doing with chasing the Rainbows and supporting lost
moms everywhere out there. Thank you, Rob.
Thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your
vulnerability, and for helping us better understand something
that's so many people miss that group.
(49:43):
Fathers grieve, too. What stands out so deeply in
today's conversation is this grief does not belong to one
parent. When a baby dies, a mother
grieves. A father grieves.
A relationship grieves. And too often, dads are expected
to carry that pain quietly. But silence doesn't heal.
Community does. Conversation does.
Being seen does. And that's what you've built
(50:04):
through Sad Dad's Club. And here, you know, you're
helping to rewrite that story, reminding fathers everywhere
that they do not have to hold this alone and that asking for
support is not weakness, it's courage and strength.
And to every dad listening rightnow, whether you've experienced
any type of these losses, these traumatic losses, we want you to
know this. Your grief matters, your baby
matters, and you matter. If this episode today resonates
(50:28):
with you, share it with someone who may need to hear it.
And Rob, thank you again so muchfor making sure fathers
everywhere knows that they are not forgotten.
Until next time this is cried out loud, Thank you.
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