What happens when leadership advice sounds good on paper but fails the moment real pressure shows up? In this episode of Cut The Tie, Thomas Helfrich sits down with Dr Rosie Ward to unpack why quick fixes, check-the-box training, and surface-level leadership development continue to fail modern organizations.
Rosie explains why disruption is not slowing down, why human behavior is the real bottleneck in scaling leadership and culture, and what executives must confront if they want organizations that actually work. This conversation is especially relevant for leaders who feel stuck managing people problems that no strategy deck seems to solve.
About Dr Rosie Ward:
Dr Rosie Ward is the CEO of Salveo Partners, a leadership and culture consulting firm based in Minneapolis. She specializes in future proofing organizations by strengthening culture, leveling up leaders, and helping teams navigate change without getting hijacked by their own human instincts. Rosie holds a PhD in organization and management and has spent her career studying the intersection of leadership, culture, and human behavior. She is the author of Rehumanizing the Workplace and an upcoming book, Future Proofing Leadership.
In this episode, Thomas and Rosie discuss:
- Why shortcuts and soundbites fail leaders
Rosie explains why leadership development fails when organizations skip the inner work and jump straight to tools, tips, and training modules. - The “stuckness zone” that derails change
How disruption triggers self-protective behavior, resistance, blame, and division inside teams and why this gap keeps widening. - Toxic workplaces and the cost of bad leadership
Rosie shares her own experiences in unhealthy environments and why culture directly erodes or strengthens human performance. - The inner operating system behind leadership behavior
Why most leaders are unknowingly operating from outdated internal programs that quietly sabotage decision making. - Self limiting mindsets that block growth
Rosie breaks down common faulty programs like the overachiever, martyr, perfectionist, and counterfeit and how they show up at work.
Key Takeaways:
- Leadership problems are rarely skill problems
Until the inner operating system is addressed, tools and training will not stick. - Human behavior drives culture, not policy
If leaders do not understand how people react under pressure, culture will always break down. - Growth requires ongoing internal upgrades
This is not a one-time fix. Leadership development is an ongoing practice. - Letting go is necessary to scale
Leaders must release control to grow beyond themselves. - Future proofing starts with courage
The ability to face uncertainty and lead with authenticity separates effective leaders from struggling ones.
Connect with Dr Rosie Ward:
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rward/
🌐 Website: https://salveopartners.com
Connect with Thomas Helfrich:
🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/thelfrich
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thelfrich/
🌐 Website: https://www.cutthetie.com
📧 Email: t@instantlyrelevant.com
🚀 Instantly Relevant: https://instantlyrelevant.com
Serious about LinkedIn Lead Generation? Stop Guessing what to do on LinkedIn and ignite revenue from relevance with Instantly Relevant Lead System
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Cut the Tide Podcast.
Hello.
I'm your host, Thomas Helfer.
I'm on a mission to help you cutthe tie to whatever it is.
Holding you back from success.
And you have to define thatsuccess yourself because you're
chasing someone else's dream ifyou don't.
Today I'm joined by Dr.
Rosie Ward.
Doctor, should I go Doctor orRosie?
Which one do you want?
Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Uh, we can be Rosie.
It's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Rosie, how are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
I am doing splendidly.
Thank you very much.
I mean, it's sunny.
It's it's another day.
You know, what does Pitbull sayevery day above ground is a good
day?
So here we are.
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
I can tell I'll take all the old I can get.
Uh you would take a moment,introduce yourself, where you're
from, what you do.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
Well, I am Dr.
Rosie Ward.
I am the CEO of a company calledSaleo Partners based out of
Minneapolis, and we focus onfuture-proofing organizations by
strengthening their culture andleveling up leaders and teams to
better navigate change anddisruption and the whole
messiness of being human.
So that's what we do.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Seems like a it's a a lot of people involved, not uh
what you know.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
The messiness of being people would have people
involved, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Those AIs run the companies, there's no people
involved, and we're all golfingum or skiing, whatever you guys
do up there in Minnesota.
Uh cross-country skiing, it'slacrosse the former Lake
Calhoun.
Big sturgeon in that lake, justbig sturgeon with the T show.
Yes.
Uh tell me why you guys getpicked.
Like there's a lot of peoplecompany, companies, people in
the space here.
(01:23):
But what's your unique uh takeon it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yeah, I love this question because we actually did
a ton of work with our businessmentors and on ourselves over
the years, evolving to go whatmakes us different from every
other firm that does leadershipdevelopment, that does coaching,
that does culture, becausethere's like a gajillion out
there.
And I think what we've reallycome to is it is that idea of
future-proofing.
And so you brought up AI that inthis world of disruption that is
(01:47):
never going to stop getting lessdisruptive, what we do is care
for what we call the stucknesszone or a gap.
So the more disruptive our worldgets, the more it innately
triggers our biological humaninstincts to self-protect and
cling tightly to what isfamiliar.
And we could get into the wholescience behind it, but that's
what happens.
And so as you start to seepeople resisting change, you
(02:09):
start to see incivility, youstart to see divisiveness, you
start to see less connection andblaming and judgment and all of
this that is going on inworkplaces in our society, we
believe a huge contributor isthis gap that we call the
stuckness zone.
And what we do is we care forhow do you recognize that
messiness of being human andhelp people move through that
(02:30):
stuckness zone and close thatgap because it's getting wider
and wider and wider.
And so shortcuts and you know,sound bites don't work.
And in a world of AI, everythingyou read right now says the
future of leadership and thefuture of workplaces is we have
to level up people'shuman-centric skills.
And it sounds soft and whatever,but it's even more and more
(02:50):
critical because of thatdisruption that AI brings to an
already disruptive world.
So we care for that gap.
We move people through thestockness zone in a way that is
sustainable and practical.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, so as you're talking today, give somebody one
link to kind of just check out,you know, as you're doing the
voiceover on our conversation.
It's mostly for the AD and HD orwho can't just listen now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah, they're like, Yeah.
So if they want to go check usout, go to our company website,
which is salveopartners.com,S-A-L-V-O partners.com.
And that also links over to likemy podcast and speaking page and
blog, but it has everythingabout what we do there.
It has our white paper that I'llprobably be talking about.
It has links to our books, ithas links to everything.
(03:30):
And so that would be the bestplace to go check stuff out.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Well, wonderful.
Uh let's start with you.
Uh, so how do you definesuccess?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
For me personally, I define success if I have done
two things.
If I can lay my head on thepillow at the end of the day and
feel like I, even if the day wascrappy as hell, that I showed up
in a way that I'm proud, meaningthat I am aligned with my values
and that I hopefully added alittle sparkle to somebody's
(03:57):
day.
And if I have done those twothings that I'm like, if I got
hit by a bus tomorrow, I'm goodand I'm golden.
So that's for me, it's reallylooking at each day, how do I
ground myself in my values?
How do I make a difference oradd sparkle in someone's life?
And that's that's the best wecan do because the world is so
uncertain.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about yourjourney a little bit.
So you back up to wherever youlike, but uh, you know, how did
you uh how'd you get where youare today?
And and then, you know, what'skind of one of the big
metaphoric ties you had to cutto achieve that success you just
defined?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
I love this question and the re the reader's digest
version for people who are oldenough to remember what reader's
digest is.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, it did.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
It was a little little magazine.
I actually just found one at myparents' house.
I was like, oh my goodness.
Anyway, uh, so I actuallystarted out it thinking I was
gonna go into psychology,changed a major in undergrad and
went into kinesiology, exercisescience, got a public health
degree, which will be somethingthat I would redo, but that
we'll get to that later.
And I started out in worksitewellness because I thought, oh,
(04:58):
like help people be healthierand it seemed really good.
And I realized that the way thatwhole field was going about it
was completely misguided.
And and I literally had thisthought of I've just wasted 80
grand on two degrees and thisshit doesn't work.
What did I what did I do with mylife?
And I had the first experience,and I say this lightly of being
in a leadership role.
I had a title, but I didn't knowwhat the hell I was doing.
I had no one to mentor me and Iwas screwing it up left and
(05:21):
right.
And I uh it just sucked.
And I got had my firstexperience of being in a
workplace that was toxic anderoded my well-being.
So I have fitness certificationsand degrees, and I was gaining
weight, I was getting sick allthe time.
And I thought, okay, this isbackwards.
So I decided to go back toschool and get my PhD in
organization and management andreally focus on culture and
(05:42):
leadership because I'm like,there's this intersection,
right?
If you have an organization thatis not healthy, the individuals
that work within it cannot bethe best version of themselves.
And you can be the best versionof yourself and get put into a
workplace that is toxic and haspoor leadership, and it's gonna
erode that quicker than you canthink.
So they they're very muchinterconnected.
And so that really started myjourney.
(06:03):
Started getting into coaching,started learning how to consult
and really testing out thistheory of we have to do things
differently if we're gonna havethriving workplaces.
And so um, then I had my secondexperience of a toxic work
environment in this consultingfarm and decided screw this,
life is too short.
Uh, and so Seleo Partners wasoriginally launched as a side
(06:23):
hustle and then eventually grewinto like, let's really let's be
intentional about this and let'smy hope is that we spend so much
time at work that we can, if wecan equip organizations by their
leaders and teams and improvingtheir culture to not get
hijacked by their own humannessas much, then we're gonna have
fewer experiences like I've hadtwice in my life.
(06:44):
And by the time my soon-to-be15-year-old son gets in the
workplace full time, I reallyhope that we don't have movies
like bad bosses, you know,horrible bosses one and two, and
shows like The Office becausethey're not funny, because no
one can relate.
Well, they are that would beamazing.
I'd work myself out of a job,but I mean, like, I'm like, this
is just this is not okay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
As long as humans are involved, you're gonna have
a job doing what you're doing.
No question about it.
Uh and you know, you you and Iappreciate the piece, you know.
What was though the you know,the major tie?
Was it was it just letting go ofthe corporate job that you
thought you were gonna have andyou had to get through that?
What was kind of the biggest,like how what did you have to
fix out?
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
I will say the major tie that I had to cut, which
feeds into the work that we dois a critical aspect of leveling
up leaders and teams to movethrough that stuckness zone I
mentioned, is I had to do aboatload of work on myself to
cut the tie of self-limitingmindsets that were fundamentally
holding me back and getting inmy way way more than I realized.
And that's the work that we nowdo with leaders.
(07:44):
I don't care if someone is a CEOof a billion-dollar tech company
because I've coached them.
I don't care if somebody is aworld-renowned surgeon or a
student or anyone in between.
It's part of our humanexperience to have these
self-limiting narratives andself-limiting stories.
We've identified, uh, we'veidentified the most common.
We call them our seven corefaulty programs.
It's kind of like the operatingsystem on your phone or your
(08:06):
computer that is quietly workingagainst us.
And if we don't intentionally dothe work to upgrade them,
instead of us showing up as anadult, we're basically all
showing up as insecure10-year-old versions.
Your colleague who's acting likea butthead, it's not their 30,
40, 50 self, it's their10-year-old self in that moment
showing up.
You know, your neighbor that'spissing you off in that moment,
they're probably not showing upas the adult version of
(08:26):
themselves.
It's the 10-year-old.
And so when we can start torealize that we have a bunch of
10-year-olds running around onany given day trying to make
complex decisions and navigatethrough strategy and do all
these things, it doesn't work sowell.
So that's so for me, it wasdoing my own work and then using
that to channel into our ownresearch where we started to
look at, we took hundreds andhundreds of leaders and started
(08:48):
to look at the most commonmindsets that they have that get
in their way and what it, whereare they trying to get better,
but they get stuck.
And that's how we came up withour faulty program.
So I had to cut my own faultyprograms in order to, in order
to do what I'm doing.
And I have to, it's an ongoingpractice, by the way.
It's not a, oh, I cut the tie,I'm done.
You do an initial cut and thenyou have to kind of trim it
(09:08):
along the way because it's not,it's it's a journey.
It's not a check the box, bedone.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
It's uh it's interesting.
You said that you had a you knowkind of self-limiting beliefs.
What was the big one that I'llask, what was the one that was
hardest to get over?
And what was the impact once youdid?
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Yeah.
So I always say that when I gethijacked, the description I give
it is that I get into hyperindependent, hyper productive,
pain in the ass, get shit donemode.
And then I take on too much, andit's all like trying to prove
yourself.
So the faulty programs that Ihad was one we call the
counterfeit, and that's the mostcommon, a feeling like you're
not enough and you're you'redon't belong and you're gonna be
(09:46):
you're gonna be found out, andthat you know, you have to be
something other than you are andyou have to hide parts yourself,
et cetera.
And then combined withoverachiever, which
overachievers, we believe thatwhen that program is hijacking
us, we fundamentally believethat our value is conditional
and tied to our accomplishmentsand how productive we are.
And so we're constantly tryingto be more and more productive
(10:07):
to add value and feel like we'reworthy.
And it's it's a recipe forburnout.
And then you put that hand inhand with a faulty program we
call the martyr.
And the martyr ishyper-independent.
It's either we don't want toappear selfish or a burden to
people, or we don't feel like wecan rely on other people.
So we take on and do everythingourselves.
And then the other one that Ihad was the perfectionist, which
is fairly self-explanatory.
(10:28):
And what I would say is I'vedone the work to upgrade most of
them.
I've gotten pretty good at that.
The one that is still mykryptonite is the overachiever.
But it's shifted.
I no longer believe that myvalue is conditional on what I
get done, but I am so hardwiredfor productivity and getting
stuff done.
And there's times it serves mewell, but when it doesn't, I
take on too much and then I gettask focused and I don't have
(10:51):
time for the things that matterfor me.
And it's hard for me to begrounded in my values.
So I will say, as I let go oflike the martyr and I started
asking for help and lettingpeople help me, it's like, wow,
I have this amazing community.
When I let go of perfectionismand I'm just like, I'm embracing
my humanity today.
Oh my God, the stress level andthe pressure that I had on me,
beautiful.
When I let go of the counterfeitand trying to like fit myself
(11:13):
into a mold or be something I'mnot, and just finally admit,
like my favorite color issparkle, and here we are, and
this is me.
Um, it's it's like relieving,it's energizing, it's peaceful.
So all of those are like, I'm sograteful that those are for the
most part gone.
It's the ongoing battle withthis productivity overachieving
wiring.
But when you're an entrepreneurand you own your own business,
(11:34):
you've got to, you've got toregulate because it can
absolutely take you out and bethe death of you.
And you got to be really clearof how much you actually are
taking on.
Does this make sense?
Does this not make sense?
And so I have I have post-itnotes all over my computer that
help me regulate theoverachiever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
Yeah, it's it's funny.
I'm glad your martyr didn'tdidn't move into uh the
Munchausen error where you startcreating problems that you have
to solve yourself, right?
And throw you in the martyr fordoing it.
Um excuse me.
Uh those are pretty big ones.
Uh how long did that take you tokind of get to the point where
you're like through it, knowingthat you had to work on it?
(12:11):
Yeah.
How long did it take, I guess,to clear the path to that for us
initially?
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah, well, I would say initially it's a good.
So this is the coaching processthat we put with people.
The initial upgrade, I call it,is a good, probably eight-month
process of intentional work andintentional exercises to
identify what that those faultyprograms are, how they show up,
and then start to do the work tokind of poke holes in their
validity and upgrade them.
And then I will say that onceyou do that initial upgrade,
(12:38):
then there's gonna be stress andlife is gonna do what it does,
and they try to kind of creepback in and take over.
So I equate it to like when yourcomputer gets stuck and you have
to do like a hard reboot or yourphone gets stuck and you have to
do a hard reboot.
Um, there's been subsequentre-upgrades, if you will, along
the way that you that's when Isay it's the ongoing work, but I
would say the initial cringy wasa brown and eight-month process.
(13:00):
And then it's kind of beingmindful of leaning on practices
along the way to constantly bedoing like mini, mini upgrades,
if that makes sense, to the nextto the next iOS.
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
If you if you take, well, I say if you take more on
the Apple side of that, notWindows, because you can kind of
swap components for a long timewith Windows, and they'll still
work slower than others, butthey'll work.
But if you're if you the Appleone's better, and the reason at
some point what you have is nolonger supported.
Yeah.
And so what you're doing at somepoint in the 70s was okay to
smack them in the ass and dowhatever it is.
Like, can't do that now.
(13:32):
You can't smoke in the officenow.
Like, I mean, like it's just notlike that Apple model is no
longer available.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So well, and we refer to the iOS as our inner
operating system, and that's thework that we do.
Like, if we don't recognize, sohere's here's what we typically
do is organizations want tolevel up their leadership bench
strength.
They want to have successionplanning, they want to have good
culture, and so, but they arealso thinking about scalability
and whatnot, and they don'tunderstand how humans work.
So, what do we do?
Here, we have this nice learningmanagement system where we're
(13:58):
gonna send you to LinkedInlearning and you're gonna take
this module on how to havebetter boundaries or time
management and or how to have umbetter feedback conversations
and you should be done.
But I'm telling you right now,if you have somebody who has the
martyr programming, all the timemanagement and boundary books
that you try to give them is notgonna work until they do the
upgrade of why it makes it sounsettling for them to let
(14:20):
others in.
Or if you have people who havethe People Pleaser program, all
of the workshops you put themthrough on how to have
courageous conversations aregoing to fall flat until they do
the upgrade work of that inneroperating system that tells them
that, but if I speak up, peoplewon't like me.
But if I piss them off, then myvalue is diminished.
Whatever that narrated, thathead trash is that people have.
(14:41):
So we talk about you have to dothe inner operating system work
or the upgrade work first.
And then all of those skills andtips that you can lean on over
and over for subsequent upgradesbecome more helpful.
But we tend to do it backwards.
We just want to jump to like thebehaviors, the skills, the tip
sheets, whatever, because it'stangible and it's easy.
But then we wonder why itdoesn't work.
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
Well, and I think part part of the challenge in
that is is the organization wantto appear they're trying to help
the organization, or do theyactually want to uh enable it
and help the people in it?
So there is a fundamentaldifference.
Like we just want to check thebox.
We don't actually truly care.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Be great, you know, but or it's just it's too
uncomfortable.
Either they don't care or it'sjust it's too uncomfortable, or
they're like, oh, this isn'tscalable, or this takes too much
effort.
And it's like, well, you cancome up with a strategy of how
do you do this in a meaningfulway.
Um, but then but then whenthey're sitting there, you know,
a couple of years from now ormore and they're stuck and they
are like, oh, well, you know,here you go.
It's kind of that old proverbialfrog in a boiling pot of water,
(15:41):
right?
You do these incrementalincreases and they don't see it,
but all of a sudden, ooh,they're in hot water, and then
they want you to like fix peopleovernight.
Well, it doesn't work that way.
So we have to turn over tsunami,we have quiet quitting, whatever
term is the of du jour.
And you know, they're they'rethey're struggling for talent,
they're struggling forretention, they're struggling
for engagement, and suddenlythey want a quick fix and they
(16:02):
don't realize what you need todo is your leaders need to do
this inner operating systemupgrade work, and your teams
collectively need to have coreand common language and tools so
that they can work bettertogether.
And you also have to build insystems in your organization to
support it.
So if you don't have all three,it's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Now, in your own kind of world, business life,
whatever, what is the currenttie you're struggling to cut?
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
I would say the current tie that I am struggling
to cut is figuring out thebalance of how much am I in the
weeds of client delivery workand how much am I of like the
strategy grow, um, et cetera.
So, you know, as we bring onmore consultants, you know, it's
hard because you have theclients that are like, but
they're not you and you know, Iwant you.
And it's like, and how do youmaintain those relationships and
(16:49):
introduce new people and youknow, because your bandwidth is
only so much.
And so I think that um it's thatscaling part of, you know, what
parts do you hold on to in theinterest of client relationships
and where is it okay to bringsomebody else in and nurture
that relationship along so theyfeel good about it?
And I think it's just an ongoingum challenge that I know I need
(17:10):
to get out of the weeds more togive the consultants more
opportunity and I am the face ofthe business.
And it's hard because I don'twant to fully get out of it
because I also do like thedelivery work to a point.
So that's really the tie thatI'm struggling with is like,
what does that balance?
Balance is nothing is balanced,but what does that, I don't
know, that harmony, if you arethat integration look like?
(17:31):
And I haven't quite figured itout.
So that's an ongoing, an ongoingthing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
You're you're moving on to my world where that's what
we do for companies and and theleaders is help you do exactly
what you're gonna go.
So we'll talk that offline of ofof how you, you know, the brand
around the business and not you,and you're the it there's a lot
of ways to do that.
And uh similar to what you justdescribed, it is not an
overnight thing uh because yougot to get comfortable
decoupling yourself from it.
But the bit but the tie you'retrying to cut right is a major
(17:57):
one because it allows you uh itreleases control, which is
frightening, but it allows youto sell, allows you to exit.
And it it's getting throughthat.
So so we do a lot of work withyou know, from billion dollar to
like solopreneurs on that exacttie.
So listen up, that tie to cut ofletting go so you can do the
(18:19):
things you need to to grow thebusiness and on the business.
Um, once again, I don't thinkyou can do the EOS, I don't
think you can do these littlelike books, and this is a like
every one of our clients workwith me one-on-one because it's
such an intimate process becauseit gets into the weeds of what
you're really struggling with,that you're never gonna say here
or what like we'll get intothat.
So we'll take that offline.
I love solving that problembecause I watch you go from like
(18:39):
you know, a few million revenueto offers for 10 or 12 to buy
it, and you're like, oh I'm out.
Go to Florida, playing down.
I'm just uprojecting that's whatI would do probably at some
point.
Uh maybe not Florida.
Some we'll figure it out.
We'll talk about where I'm goingnext.
Uh is there a book you thinkthat any um I don't I want to go
(19:01):
to the entrepreneur out, butjust from from your client base.
Yeah, like someone's listeningto this, whatever.
Like, what's the one book youthink leaders uh who who are you
know they're struggling withthis problem that they should
read first?
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
Yeah, well, besides our book, so my my I mean
obviously shameless cloak time.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Go to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Well, well, my new book, my new book is called
Future Proofing Leadership, andit unpacks these faulty programs
and how do you future proof atan organizational level?
And that is actually coming outlater this year, so it's not
quite out yet.
My previous book is calledRehumanizing the Workplace, and
we kind of dig also into thisinteroperating system, and so
that's a start.
But if besides our own, I wouldsay the one hands down is Brene
(19:42):
Brown's Dare to Lead.
I trained with her in 2019.
I'm one of her certifiedfacilitators.
And so much of what she talksabout of our need for courage,
and it's it's database, but it'svery practical.
We weave that into a lot of whatwe do because a lot of what gets
in our way is we're not going tolean into vulnerability.
We we're not going to beauthentic.
We show up in ways that are notproductive because our
(20:02):
self-protective instincts arehijacking us.
And so I think that that one isvery eye-opening and practical
for uh a lot of people.
So I I always recommend that oneas well.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Uh what did you most take from that book?
Do you think?
Like what was the really likeyou're like like even sometimes
you read the line, you're like,I could stop now, but then
you're like, I gotta do the howpart, but you know, what was the
what was the one?
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Yeah, well, the well, there's two things.
I will say the biggest one isjust what she found from her
research and where the book camefrom, is that the future demands
braver leaders and courageouscultures.
And that's the heart of the workthat we do.
Like we are not, it's the oldsaying, what got you here is not
gonna get you there.
If we think that we can avoidvulnerability, if we think that
we don't have to lean intouncertainty, risk, and emotional
(20:45):
exposure and we're gonna befuture ready, like you're you're
fooling yourself.
And all the CEOs of globalcompanies all concluded like
this is what's needed for thefuture of leadership.
So that's that was an aha oflike I intuitively knew it and
we've been talking about it.
And it was like the affirmationof this is what we've been
saying for what feels likeforever.
I will say the second thing thatis I really appreciate about
(21:05):
that book and her work inparticular and being a steward
of it is that courage is notsome nebulous thing.
It is made up of four veryspecific skill sets that are
observable, measurable, andteachable.
So it's not this far out thing,you know, oh, go be like the
lion.
It's like, no, like we canactually walk you through very
practical exercises to buildthese skills.
And that for me was is hugebecause if you don't have
(21:27):
something actionable, what whatit's not it's not helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Yeah, and I've worked at those places myself
where horrible behavior isencouraged at every level, and
they're open about it.
Like, well, you know, if youdon't like that, you're not
gonna live at work here.
So you you quietly quit forthree years, right?
And and some point you have torecognize it's beyond what you
can control.
Like, right?
You can't make the weather notrain today.
(21:53):
It's always raining here, so youmight want to move.
So I think there's some likerealization of where you are,
not to fight through it, but youknow, I think it's uh you can
apply that to relationships,business partners, there's a
bunch of stuff that it goes to.
Yeah.
If you had to start over today,when would you go back into your
timeline and what would you dodifferently?
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
On one hand, I say I wouldn't do anything differently
because it's it actually hasshaped who I am and what I'm
doing.
But if there was one thing, Ithink when I went and got my
master's degree, I fell into apublic health master's degree
because at the time in WorksiteWellness, there weren't other
master's degree.
I'm like, well, what I knew Ineeded, what what do you do?
And I literally hated everymoment of that degree, with the
exception of one class.
(22:30):
And the class that I loved wasmanagement and leadership and
healthcare.
And that should have been a signfor me that I should have like
gotten my master's inorganizational development or
organizational leadership orsomething like that, because
that was what lit me up.
So here I spent a bunch ofmoney.
I think it was back in the day,it was probably 60 grand on that
darn degree.
And I got one class out of itthat I leveraged.
(22:53):
Um, but um, but I, you know,again, again, I got additional
degree and certifications.
But I think going back of likefalling into what seems like you
should do versus what I reallywas passionate about.
Like everything about as Ilooked at the courses, I was
like, ugh, but I just had this.
I feel like I should.
So I would go back and go, well,don't don't should on me, says
who, and what really feels umaligned, and maybe talk to some
(23:16):
more people uh before I madethat decision.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, it's the that's a that's one you probably
could still bump.
It's probably probably doesn'tchange your trajectory that
much.
Just end of the day.
Um but I understand the like theperspective on it.
It's it's like uh it's hard togo back.
You know, there's some certainthings you could definitely go
back.
I I know I could do, but likethat one I would say is that's
you're in a good spot.
You it sounds like you're reallyin it.
(23:40):
These happened for me, andthat's a nice place to be in
life.
Good energy, people, solid.
She's improved.
All right.
If there's a question I shouldhave asked today and I didn't,
what is that question?
How do you answer it?
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
I would say to ask, really, I mean, we kind of
talked about a little bit, butreally thinking about like what
are the most common reasons thatwe get in our own way.
And I we already answered it,which is really these faulty
programs that you can identify.
I will say shameless plug, whichI know is coming.
But if you go to my websiteunder our white papers, we did
release a white paper in Januarythat is a precursor to the book
(24:16):
that gives you a sense of likewhat are each of the faulty
programs, how do you start theupgrade process?
What are the most common goalsleaders struggle with?
And my intent of doing that is Iwant to normalize the messiness
of being human, but also say,like, are you focusing on the
right things for yourorganization?
Are you focusing on the rightthings for yourself?
Are you focusing on the rightthings collectively that will
(24:36):
make a difference?
And I think so often we spin ourwheels because we don't know
what that what that is.
So I would say you actually wealready kind of covered it.
unknown (24:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
You could good job, good job.
Yay, we covered it already.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
Well, you know, shameless plug though.
Like, you know, I I tell peopleyou I always ask, just give me
one link that people should goto.
And usually people dump likeeight or nine on me.
But I'm like, what is the onelink and who should be the one
going to it?
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yeah.
So I said it earlier atsalveopartners.com, S-A-L-V-E-O
partners.com.
And there's links over to my Dr.
Rosie Award website, which youcan see speaking and my that's
where my podcast is located andeverything.
And it has all my social links.
So that's that's your go-to tofind any other link about me.
Just go there.
Um, and I think, you know, it'sa combination of people who
(25:20):
really want to show up as aleader in their life, regardless
of title or role, because Idon't believe that leadership is
about a title or role, it'sabout how we show up so we can
be a leader in our personal lifeand at work.
And I think people who work inthe space of learning and
development, in human resources,business owners, business
leaders, because that's whatwe're all about is how do you
future-proof leadership andfuture-proof organizations on an
(25:43):
individual level and on anorganizational level.
And so people who care abouthumans, people who care about
culture, people who care aboutbeing a better version of
themselves, that's those are thepeople who we work with and who
we partner with.
unknown (25:56):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Thank you so much for coming on today.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
It was a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
And then listen, if you made this point in the show,
thank you for being here.
If it was your first time, I dohope it's the first of many.
And if you've been here before,you know what I'm about to say.
Get out there, go cut a tie towhatever's holding you back.
First, own and define your ownsuccess.
Welcome to the Cut the Tide Podcast.
Hello.
I'm your host, Thomas Helfer.
I'm on a mission to help you cutthe tie to whatever it is.
Holding you back from success.
And you have to define thatsuccess yourself because you're
chasing someone else's dream ifyou don't.
Today I'm joined by Dr.
Rosie Ward.
Doctor, should I go Doctor orRosie?
Which one do you want?
Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Uh, we can be Rosie.
It's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Rosie, how are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
I am doing splendidly.
Thank you very much.
I mean, it's sunny.
It's it's another day.
You know, what does Pitbull sayevery day above ground is a good
day?
So here we are.
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
I can tell I'll take all the old I can get.
Uh you would take a moment,introduce yourself, where you're
from, what you do.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
Well, I am Dr.
Rosie Ward.
I am the CEO of a company calledSaleo Partners based out of
Minneapolis, and we focus onfuture-proofing organizations by
strengthening their culture andleveling up leaders and teams to
better navigate change anddisruption and the whole
messiness of being human.
So that's what we do.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Seems like a it's a a lot of people involved, not uh
what you know.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
The messiness of being people would have people
involved, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Those AIs run the companies, there's no people
involved, and we're all golfingum or skiing, whatever you guys
do up there in Minnesota.
Uh cross-country skiing, it'slacrosse the former Lake
Calhoun.
Big sturgeon in that lake, justbig sturgeon with the T show.
Yes.
Uh tell me why you guys getpicked.
Like there's a lot of peoplecompany, companies, people in
the space here.
(01:23):
But what's your unique uh takeon it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yeah, I love this question because we actually did
a ton of work with our businessmentors and on ourselves over
the years, evolving to go whatmakes us different from every
other firm that does leadershipdevelopment, that does coaching,
that does culture, becausethere's like a gajillion out
there.
And I think what we've reallycome to is it is that idea of
future-proofing.
And so you brought up AI that inthis world of disruption that is
(01:47):
never going to stop getting lessdisruptive, what we do is care
for what we call the stucknesszone or a gap.
So the more disruptive our worldgets, the more it innately
triggers our biological humaninstincts to self-protect and
cling tightly to what isfamiliar.
And we could get into the wholescience behind it, but that's
what happens.
And so as you start to seepeople resisting change, you
(02:09):
start to see incivility, youstart to see divisiveness, you
start to see less connection andblaming and judgment and all of
this that is going on inworkplaces in our society, we
believe a huge contributor isthis gap that we call the
stuckness zone.
And what we do is we care forhow do you recognize that
messiness of being human andhelp people move through that
(02:30):
stuckness zone and close thatgap because it's getting wider
and wider and wider.
And so shortcuts and you know,sound bites don't work.
And in a world of AI, everythingyou read right now says the
future of leadership and thefuture of workplaces is we have
to level up people'shuman-centric skills.
And it sounds soft and whatever,but it's even more and more
(02:50):
critical because of thatdisruption that AI brings to an
already disruptive world.
So we care for that gap.
We move people through thestockness zone in a way that is
sustainable and practical.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, so as you're talking today, give somebody one
link to kind of just check out,you know, as you're doing the
voiceover on our conversation.
It's mostly for the AD and HD orwho can't just listen now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah, they're like, Yeah.
So if they want to go check usout, go to our company website,
which is salveopartners.com,S-A-L-V-O partners.com.
And that also links over to likemy podcast and speaking page and
blog, but it has everythingabout what we do there.
It has our white paper that I'llprobably be talking about.
It has links to our books, ithas links to everything.
(03:30):
And so that would be the bestplace to go check stuff out.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Well, wonderful.
Uh let's start with you.
Uh, so how do you definesuccess?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
For me personally, I define success if I have done
two things.
If I can lay my head on thepillow at the end of the day and
feel like I, even if the day wascrappy as hell, that I showed up
in a way that I'm proud, meaningthat I am aligned with my values
and that I hopefully added alittle sparkle to somebody's
(03:57):
day.
And if I have done those twothings that I'm like, if I got
hit by a bus tomorrow, I'm goodand I'm golden.
So that's for me, it's reallylooking at each day, how do I
ground myself in my values?
How do I make a difference oradd sparkle in someone's life?
And that's that's the best wecan do because the world is so
uncertain.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about yourjourney a little bit.
So you back up to wherever youlike, but uh, you know, how did
you uh how'd you get where youare today?
And and then, you know, what'skind of one of the big
metaphoric ties you had to cutto achieve that success you just
defined?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
I love this question and the re the reader's digest
version for people who are oldenough to remember what reader's
digest is.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, it did.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
It was a little little magazine.
I actually just found one at myparents' house.
I was like, oh my goodness.
Anyway, uh, so I actuallystarted out it thinking I was
gonna go into psychology,changed a major in undergrad and
went into kinesiology, exercisescience, got a public health
degree, which will be somethingthat I would redo, but that
we'll get to that later.
And I started out in worksitewellness because I thought, oh,
(04:58):
like help people be healthierand it seemed really good.
And I realized that the way thatwhole field was going about it
was completely misguided.
And and I literally had thisthought of I've just wasted 80
grand on two degrees and thisshit doesn't work.
What did I what did I do with mylife?
And I had the first experience,and I say this lightly of being
in a leadership role.
I had a title, but I didn't knowwhat the hell I was doing.
I had no one to mentor me and Iwas screwing it up left and
(05:21):
right.
And I uh it just sucked.
And I got had my firstexperience of being in a
workplace that was toxic anderoded my well-being.
So I have fitness certificationsand degrees, and I was gaining
weight, I was getting sick allthe time.
And I thought, okay, this isbackwards.
So I decided to go back toschool and get my PhD in
organization and management andreally focus on culture and
(05:42):
leadership because I'm like,there's this intersection,
right?
If you have an organization thatis not healthy, the individuals
that work within it cannot bethe best version of themselves.
And you can be the best versionof yourself and get put into a
workplace that is toxic and haspoor leadership, and it's gonna
erode that quicker than you canthink.
So they they're very muchinterconnected.
And so that really started myjourney.
(06:03):
Started getting into coaching,started learning how to consult
and really testing out thistheory of we have to do things
differently if we're gonna havethriving workplaces.
And so um, then I had my secondexperience of a toxic work
environment in this consultingfarm and decided screw this,
life is too short.
Uh, and so Seleo Partners wasoriginally launched as a side
(06:23):
hustle and then eventually grewinto like, let's really let's be
intentional about this and let'smy hope is that we spend so much
time at work that we can, if wecan equip organizations by their
leaders and teams and improvingtheir culture to not get
hijacked by their own humannessas much, then we're gonna have
fewer experiences like I've hadtwice in my life.
(06:44):
And by the time my soon-to-be15-year-old son gets in the
workplace full time, I reallyhope that we don't have movies
like bad bosses, you know,horrible bosses one and two, and
shows like The Office becausethey're not funny, because no
one can relate.
Well, they are that would beamazing.
I'd work myself out of a job,but I mean, like, I'm like, this
is just this is not okay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:03):
As long as humans are involved, you're gonna have
a job doing what you're doing.
No question about it.
Uh and you know, you you and Iappreciate the piece, you know.
What was though the you know,the major tie?
Was it was it just letting go ofthe corporate job that you
thought you were gonna have andyou had to get through that?
What was kind of the biggest,like how what did you have to
fix out?
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
I will say the major tie that I had to cut, which
feeds into the work that we dois a critical aspect of leveling
up leaders and teams to movethrough that stuckness zone I
mentioned, is I had to do aboatload of work on myself to
cut the tie of self-limitingmindsets that were fundamentally
holding me back and getting inmy way way more than I realized.
And that's the work that we nowdo with leaders.
(07:44):
I don't care if someone is a CEOof a billion-dollar tech company
because I've coached them.
I don't care if somebody is aworld-renowned surgeon or a
student or anyone in between.
It's part of our humanexperience to have these
self-limiting narratives andself-limiting stories.
We've identified, uh, we'veidentified the most common.
We call them our seven corefaulty programs.
It's kind of like the operatingsystem on your phone or your
(08:06):
computer that is quietly workingagainst us.
And if we don't intentionally dothe work to upgrade them,
instead of us showing up as anadult, we're basically all
showing up as insecure10-year-old versions.
Your colleague who's acting likea butthead, it's not their 30,
40, 50 self, it's their10-year-old self in that moment
showing up.
You know, your neighbor that'spissing you off in that moment,
they're probably not showing upas the adult version of
(08:26):
themselves.
It's the 10-year-old.
And so when we can start torealize that we have a bunch of
10-year-olds running around onany given day trying to make
complex decisions and navigatethrough strategy and do all
these things, it doesn't work sowell.
So that's so for me, it wasdoing my own work and then using
that to channel into our ownresearch where we started to
look at, we took hundreds andhundreds of leaders and started
(08:48):
to look at the most commonmindsets that they have that get
in their way and what it, whereare they trying to get better,
but they get stuck.
And that's how we came up withour faulty program.
So I had to cut my own faultyprograms in order to, in order
to do what I'm doing.
And I have to, it's an ongoingpractice, by the way.
It's not a, oh, I cut the tie,I'm done.
You do an initial cut and thenyou have to kind of trim it
(09:08):
along the way because it's not,it's it's a journey.
It's not a check the box, bedone.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
It's uh it's interesting.
You said that you had a you knowkind of self-limiting beliefs.
What was the big one that I'llask, what was the one that was
hardest to get over?
And what was the impact once youdid?
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Yeah.
So I always say that when I gethijacked, the description I give
it is that I get into hyperindependent, hyper productive,
pain in the ass, get shit donemode.
And then I take on too much, andit's all like trying to prove
yourself.
So the faulty programs that Ihad was one we call the
counterfeit, and that's the mostcommon, a feeling like you're
not enough and you're you'redon't belong and you're gonna be
(09:46):
you're gonna be found out, andthat you know, you have to be
something other than you are andyou have to hide parts yourself,
et cetera.
And then combined withoverachiever, which
overachievers, we believe thatwhen that program is hijacking
us, we fundamentally believethat our value is conditional
and tied to our accomplishmentsand how productive we are.
And so we're constantly tryingto be more and more productive
(10:07):
to add value and feel like we'reworthy.
And it's it's a recipe forburnout.
And then you put that hand inhand with a faulty program we
call the martyr.
And the martyr ishyper-independent.
It's either we don't want toappear selfish or a burden to
people, or we don't feel like wecan rely on other people.
So we take on and do everythingourselves.
And then the other one that Ihad was the perfectionist, which
is fairly self-explanatory.
(10:28):
And what I would say is I'vedone the work to upgrade most of
them.
I've gotten pretty good at that.
The one that is still mykryptonite is the overachiever.
But it's shifted.
I no longer believe that myvalue is conditional on what I
get done, but I am so hardwiredfor productivity and getting
stuff done.
And there's times it serves mewell, but when it doesn't, I
take on too much and then I gettask focused and I don't have
(10:51):
time for the things that matterfor me.
And it's hard for me to begrounded in my values.
So I will say, as I let go oflike the martyr and I started
asking for help and lettingpeople help me, it's like, wow,
I have this amazing community.
When I let go of perfectionismand I'm just like, I'm embracing
my humanity today.
Oh my God, the stress level andthe pressure that I had on me,
beautiful.
When I let go of the counterfeitand trying to like fit myself
(11:13):
into a mold or be something I'mnot, and just finally admit,
like my favorite color issparkle, and here we are, and
this is me.
Um, it's it's like relieving,it's energizing, it's peaceful.
So all of those are like, I'm sograteful that those are for the
most part gone.
It's the ongoing battle withthis productivity overachieving
wiring.
But when you're an entrepreneurand you own your own business,
(11:34):
you've got to, you've got toregulate because it can
absolutely take you out and bethe death of you.
And you got to be really clearof how much you actually are
taking on.
Does this make sense?
Does this not make sense?
And so I have I have post-itnotes all over my computer that
help me regulate theoverachiever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
Yeah, it's it's funny.
I'm glad your martyr didn'tdidn't move into uh the
Munchausen error where you startcreating problems that you have
to solve yourself, right?
And throw you in the martyr fordoing it.
Um excuse me.
Uh those are pretty big ones.
Uh how long did that take you tokind of get to the point where
you're like through it, knowingthat you had to work on it?
(12:11):
Yeah.
How long did it take, I guess,to clear the path to that for us
initially?
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah, well, I would say initially it's a good.
So this is the coaching processthat we put with people.
The initial upgrade, I call it,is a good, probably eight-month
process of intentional work andintentional exercises to
identify what that those faultyprograms are, how they show up,
and then start to do the work tokind of poke holes in their
validity and upgrade them.
And then I will say that onceyou do that initial upgrade,
(12:38):
then there's gonna be stress andlife is gonna do what it does,
and they try to kind of creepback in and take over.
So I equate it to like when yourcomputer gets stuck and you have
to do like a hard reboot or yourphone gets stuck and you have to
do a hard reboot.
Um, there's been subsequentre-upgrades, if you will, along
the way that you that's when Isay it's the ongoing work, but I
would say the initial cringy wasa brown and eight-month process.
(13:00):
And then it's kind of beingmindful of leaning on practices
along the way to constantly bedoing like mini, mini upgrades,
if that makes sense, to the nextto the next iOS.
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
If you if you take, well, I say if you take more on
the Apple side of that, notWindows, because you can kind of
swap components for a long timewith Windows, and they'll still
work slower than others, butthey'll work.
But if you're if you the Appleone's better, and the reason at
some point what you have is nolonger supported.
Yeah.
And so what you're doing at somepoint in the 70s was okay to
smack them in the ass and dowhatever it is.
Like, can't do that now.
(13:32):
You can't smoke in the officenow.
Like, I mean, like it's just notlike that Apple model is no
longer available.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So well, and we refer to the iOS as our inner
operating system, and that's thework that we do.
Like, if we don't recognize, sohere's here's what we typically
do is organizations want tolevel up their leadership bench
strength.
They want to have successionplanning, they want to have good
culture, and so, but they arealso thinking about scalability
and whatnot, and they don'tunderstand how humans work.
So, what do we do?
Here, we have this nice learningmanagement system where we're
(13:58):
gonna send you to LinkedInlearning and you're gonna take
this module on how to havebetter boundaries or time
management and or how to have umbetter feedback conversations
and you should be done.
But I'm telling you right now,if you have somebody who has the
martyr programming, all the timemanagement and boundary books
that you try to give them is notgonna work until they do the
upgrade of why it makes it sounsettling for them to let
(14:20):
others in.
Or if you have people who havethe People Pleaser program, all
of the workshops you put themthrough on how to have
courageous conversations aregoing to fall flat until they do
the upgrade work of that inneroperating system that tells them
that, but if I speak up, peoplewon't like me.
But if I piss them off, then myvalue is diminished.
Whatever that narrated, thathead trash is that people have.
(14:41):
So we talk about you have to dothe inner operating system work
or the upgrade work first.
And then all of those skills andtips that you can lean on over
and over for subsequent upgradesbecome more helpful.
But we tend to do it backwards.
We just want to jump to like thebehaviors, the skills, the tip
sheets, whatever, because it'stangible and it's easy.
But then we wonder why itdoesn't work.
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
Well, and I think part part of the challenge in
that is is the organization wantto appear they're trying to help
the organization, or do theyactually want to uh enable it
and help the people in it?
So there is a fundamentaldifference.
Like we just want to check thebox.
We don't actually truly care.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Be great, you know, but or it's just it's too
uncomfortable.
Either they don't care or it'sjust it's too uncomfortable, or
they're like, oh, this isn'tscalable, or this takes too much
effort.
And it's like, well, you cancome up with a strategy of how
do you do this in a meaningfulway.
Um, but then but then whenthey're sitting there, you know,
a couple of years from now ormore and they're stuck and they
are like, oh, well, you know,here you go.
It's kind of that old proverbialfrog in a boiling pot of water,
(15:41):
right?
You do these incrementalincreases and they don't see it,
but all of a sudden, ooh,they're in hot water, and then
they want you to like fix peopleovernight.
Well, it doesn't work that way.
So we have to turn over tsunami,we have quiet quitting, whatever
term is the of du jour.
And you know, they're they'rethey're struggling for talent,
they're struggling forretention, they're struggling
for engagement, and suddenlythey want a quick fix and they
(16:02):
don't realize what you need todo is your leaders need to do
this inner operating systemupgrade work, and your teams
collectively need to have coreand common language and tools so
that they can work bettertogether.
And you also have to build insystems in your organization to
support it.
So if you don't have all three,it's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Now, in your own kind of world, business life,
whatever, what is the currenttie you're struggling to cut?
SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
I would say the current tie that I am struggling
to cut is figuring out thebalance of how much am I in the
weeds of client delivery workand how much am I of like the
strategy grow, um, et cetera.
So, you know, as we bring onmore consultants, you know, it's
hard because you have theclients that are like, but
they're not you and you know, Iwant you.
And it's like, and how do youmaintain those relationships and
(16:49):
introduce new people and youknow, because your bandwidth is
only so much.
And so I think that um it's thatscaling part of, you know, what
parts do you hold on to in theinterest of client relationships
and where is it okay to bringsomebody else in and nurture
that relationship along so theyfeel good about it?
And I think it's just an ongoingum challenge that I know I need
(17:10):
to get out of the weeds more togive the consultants more
opportunity and I am the face ofthe business.
And it's hard because I don'twant to fully get out of it
because I also do like thedelivery work to a point.
So that's really the tie thatI'm struggling with is like,
what does that balance?
Balance is nothing is balanced,but what does that, I don't
know, that harmony, if you arethat integration look like?
(17:31):
And I haven't quite figured itout.
So that's an ongoing, an ongoingthing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
You're you're moving on to my world where that's what
we do for companies and and theleaders is help you do exactly
what you're gonna go.
So we'll talk that offline of ofof how you, you know, the brand
around the business and not you,and you're the it there's a lot
of ways to do that.
And uh similar to what you justdescribed, it is not an
overnight thing uh because yougot to get comfortable
decoupling yourself from it.
But the bit but the tie you'retrying to cut right is a major
(17:57):
one because it allows you uh itreleases control, which is
frightening, but it allows youto sell, allows you to exit.
And it it's getting throughthat.
So so we do a lot of work withyou know, from billion dollar to
like solopreneurs on that exacttie.
So listen up, that tie to cut ofletting go so you can do the
(18:19):
things you need to to grow thebusiness and on the business.
Um, once again, I don't thinkyou can do the EOS, I don't
think you can do these littlelike books, and this is a like
every one of our clients workwith me one-on-one because it's
such an intimate process becauseit gets into the weeds of what
you're really struggling with,that you're never gonna say here
or what like we'll get intothat.
So we'll take that offline.
I love solving that problembecause I watch you go from like
(18:39):
you know, a few million revenueto offers for 10 or 12 to buy
it, and you're like, oh I'm out.
Go to Florida, playing down.
I'm just uprojecting that's whatI would do probably at some
point.
Uh maybe not Florida.
Some we'll figure it out.
We'll talk about where I'm goingnext.
Uh is there a book you thinkthat any um I don't I want to go
(19:01):
to the entrepreneur out, butjust from from your client base.
Yeah, like someone's listeningto this, whatever.
Like, what's the one book youthink leaders uh who who are you
know they're struggling withthis problem that they should
read first?
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
Yeah, well, besides our book, so my my I mean
obviously shameless cloak time.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Go to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Well, well, my new book, my new book is called
Future Proofing Leadership, andit unpacks these faulty programs
and how do you future proof atan organizational level?
And that is actually coming outlater this year, so it's not
quite out yet.
My previous book is calledRehumanizing the Workplace, and
we kind of dig also into thisinteroperating system, and so
that's a start.
But if besides our own, I wouldsay the one hands down is Brene
(19:42):
Brown's Dare to Lead.
I trained with her in 2019.
I'm one of her certifiedfacilitators.
And so much of what she talksabout of our need for courage,
and it's it's database, but it'svery practical.
We weave that into a lot of whatwe do because a lot of what gets
in our way is we're not going tolean into vulnerability.
We we're not going to beauthentic.
We show up in ways that are notproductive because our
(20:02):
self-protective instincts arehijacking us.
And so I think that that one isvery eye-opening and practical
for uh a lot of people.
So I I always recommend that oneas well.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Uh what did you most take from that book?
Do you think?
Like what was the really likeyou're like like even sometimes
you read the line, you're like,I could stop now, but then
you're like, I gotta do the howpart, but you know, what was the
what was the one?
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Yeah, well, the well, there's two things.
I will say the biggest one isjust what she found from her
research and where the book camefrom, is that the future demands
braver leaders and courageouscultures.
And that's the heart of the workthat we do.
Like we are not, it's the oldsaying, what got you here is not
gonna get you there.
If we think that we can avoidvulnerability, if we think that
we don't have to lean intouncertainty, risk, and emotional
(20:45):
exposure and we're gonna befuture ready, like you're you're
fooling yourself.
And all the CEOs of globalcompanies all concluded like
this is what's needed for thefuture of leadership.
So that's that was an aha oflike I intuitively knew it and
we've been talking about it.
And it was like the affirmationof this is what we've been
saying for what feels likeforever.
I will say the second thing thatis I really appreciate about
(21:05):
that book and her work inparticular and being a steward
of it is that courage is notsome nebulous thing.
It is made up of four veryspecific skill sets that are
observable, measurable, andteachable.
So it's not this far out thing,you know, oh, go be like the
lion.
It's like, no, like we canactually walk you through very
practical exercises to buildthese skills.
And that for me was is hugebecause if you don't have
(21:27):
something actionable, what whatit's not it's not helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Yeah, and I've worked at those places myself
where horrible behavior isencouraged at every level, and
they're open about it.
Like, well, you know, if youdon't like that, you're not
gonna live at work here.
So you you quietly quit forthree years, right?
And and some point you have torecognize it's beyond what you
can control.
Like, right?
You can't make the weather notrain today.
(21:53):
It's always raining here, so youmight want to move.
So I think there's some likerealization of where you are,
not to fight through it, but youknow, I think it's uh you can
apply that to relationships,business partners, there's a
bunch of stuff that it goes to.
Yeah.
If you had to start over today,when would you go back into your
timeline and what would you dodifferently?
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
On one hand, I say I wouldn't do anything differently
because it's it actually hasshaped who I am and what I'm
doing.
But if there was one thing, Ithink when I went and got my
master's degree, I fell into apublic health master's degree
because at the time in WorksiteWellness, there weren't other
master's degree.
I'm like, well, what I knew Ineeded, what what do you do?
And I literally hated everymoment of that degree, with the
exception of one class.
(22:30):
And the class that I loved wasmanagement and leadership and
healthcare.
And that should have been a signfor me that I should have like
gotten my master's inorganizational development or
organizational leadership orsomething like that, because
that was what lit me up.
So here I spent a bunch ofmoney.
I think it was back in the day,it was probably 60 grand on that
darn degree.
And I got one class out of itthat I leveraged.
(22:53):
Um, but um, but I, you know,again, again, I got additional
degree and certifications.
But I think going back of likefalling into what seems like you
should do versus what I reallywas passionate about.
Like everything about as Ilooked at the courses, I was
like, ugh, but I just had this.
I feel like I should.
So I would go back and go, well,don't don't should on me, says
who, and what really feels umaligned, and maybe talk to some
(23:16):
more people uh before I madethat decision.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, it's the that's a that's one you probably
could still bump.
It's probably probably doesn'tchange your trajectory that
much.
Just end of the day.
Um but I understand the like theperspective on it.
It's it's like uh it's hard togo back.
You know, there's some certainthings you could definitely go
back.
I I know I could do, but likethat one I would say is that's
you're in a good spot.
You it sounds like you're reallyin it.
(23:40):
These happened for me, andthat's a nice place to be in
life.
Good energy, people, solid.
She's improved.
All right.
If there's a question I shouldhave asked today and I didn't,
what is that question?
How do you answer it?
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
I would say to ask, really, I mean, we kind of
talked about a little bit, butreally thinking about like what
are the most common reasons thatwe get in our own way.
And I we already answered it,which is really these faulty
programs that you can identify.
I will say shameless plug, whichI know is coming.
But if you go to my websiteunder our white papers, we did
release a white paper in Januarythat is a precursor to the book
(24:16):
that gives you a sense of likewhat are each of the faulty
programs, how do you start theupgrade process?
What are the most common goalsleaders struggle with?
And my intent of doing that is Iwant to normalize the messiness
of being human, but also say,like, are you focusing on the
right things for yourorganization?
Are you focusing on the rightthings for yourself?
Are you focusing on the rightthings collectively that will
(24:36):
make a difference?
And I think so often we spin ourwheels because we don't know
what that what that is.
So I would say you actually wealready kind of covered it.
unknown (24:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
You could good job, good job.
Yay, we covered it already.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
Well, you know, shameless plug though.
Like, you know, I I tell peopleyou I always ask, just give me
one link that people should goto.
And usually people dump likeeight or nine on me.
But I'm like, what is the onelink and who should be the one
going to it?
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yeah.
So I said it earlier atsalveopartners.com, S-A-L-V-E-O
partners.com.
And there's links over to my Dr.
Rosie Award website, which youcan see speaking and my that's
where my podcast is located andeverything.
And it has all my social links.
So that's that's your go-to tofind any other link about me.
Just go there.
Um, and I think, you know, it'sa combination of people who
(25:20):
really want to show up as aleader in their life, regardless
of title or role, because Idon't believe that leadership is
about a title or role, it'sabout how we show up so we can
be a leader in our personal lifeand at work.
And I think people who work inthe space of learning and
development, in human resources,business owners, business
leaders, because that's whatwe're all about is how do you
future-proof leadership andfuture-proof organizations on an
(25:43):
individual level and on anorganizational level.
And so people who care abouthumans, people who care about
culture, people who care aboutbeing a better version of
themselves, that's those are thepeople who we work with and who
we partner with.
unknown (25:56):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Thank you so much for coming on today.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
It was a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
And then listen, if you made this point in the show,
thank you for being here.
If it was your first time, I dohope it's the first of many.
And if you've been here before,you know what I'm about to say.
Get out there, go cut a tie towhatever's holding you back.
First, own and define your ownsuccess.
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