ForeverGreen Trails

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In this episode of Cycling Over Sixty, host Tom Butler shares his recent dietary journey, giving a view of the ups and downs of his nutrition evolution and examining why his previous meal planning program didn't deliver the results he'd hoped for. 

Then, Tom welcomes Larry Leveen, Executive Director of ForeverGreen Trails and a true force in the active transportation movement. Larry pulls back the curtain on the complex world of infrastructure advocacy, revealing the patience, persistence, and strategic thinking required to create safe spaces for cycling and walking in our communities. From navigating bureaucratic hurdles to building coalitions, Larry shares the realities of what it takes—sometimes years of effort—to transform a vision for safer streets into concrete reality.

Whether you're interested in fueling your body better for health or understanding the vital advocacy work that creates the paths you love to ride, this conversation delivers insights from two perspectives on making cycling more accessible and enjoyable.

Perfect for anyone who has ever wondered about the behind-the-scenes work that goes into creating the trails and bike lanes we often take for granted, or anyone looking to make positive changes in their own cycling lifestyle. 

Here is your invitation to join a great launch party for the summer cycling season.  Join the Cycling Over Sixty Tour de Cure PNW team.  Whether you are local or come out to experience cycling in the great Northwest, I would love to have you help make this a ride with a purpose.  And to send a message that the joy of cycling is here for everyone, regardless of age. Go to tour.diabetes.org/teams/CO60

I know it is early but we are looking to get the Cycling Over Sixty Tour de Cure team together as soon as possible. You can find all the info at tour.diabetes.org/teams/CO60

Thank you Konvergent Wealth for sponsoring CO60 Jerseys for the Tour de Cure!

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Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com

Episode Transcript

Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 4,
episode 2, Forevergreen Trails,and I'm your host, Tom Butler.
For this update, I want to talka bit about what I'm doing with

(00:27):
my diet.
What I'm eating is as big of apart of my story as my cycling.
And everybody who's doing a lotof biking needs to have a
fueling strategy.
For me, a big aspect of my foodchoices comes down to managing
my blood glucose.
If you're new here, I found outwhat was going on with my
metabolic health by wearing acontinuous glucose monitor.

(00:48):
Later, I did a glucosetolerance test with an insulin
response.
My belief is that if you havean A1C over 5.7, do yourself a
favor and wear a continuousglucose monitor and also get a
glucose tolerance test.
A glucose tolerance test is notthat unusual, but make sure
that you have an insulinresponse test with it.

(01:08):
And you want to have aphysician who understands that
high blood glucose levels is asecondary issue to metabolic
dysfunction.
Hopefully, unlike me, you findthat you're processing glucose
just fine.
What I've been reading suggeststhat as many as 50% of people
have insulin resistance.
If you go through all thetesting and everything looks

(01:30):
good, what this also provides issome results that you can use
to compare in case your A1Ccontinues to go up.
Keep in mind that there aremany physicians who are looking
for an A1C level above 6.4before recommending you take any
real action.
From my experience, if there isan issue with glucose
tolerance, you want to catch itas early as possible.

(01:52):
Soon after I found out aboutthe problems I have with insulin
and blood glucose levels, Iadopted a specific diet.
I significantly reduced myintake of carbohydrates, and I
didn't worry at all about theamount of fat I consumed.
My interpretation of whathappened because of that change
is that my body became moreefficient at burning fat for

(02:12):
energy.
Eating that way, I did someexperiments on myself, which, as
I will point out over and over,I recommend that you don't do
experiments on yourself.
But what I saw from myexperimentation was consistent
with what I expected to see bybeing in a state where I was
using fat stores to fuel myactivity.
Eating that way, I lost 20pounds.

(02:35):
Along the way, Kelly startedstudying the effects of dietary
fat on the ability of cells totake in blood sugar.
She was seeing a lot ofresearch that was saying that
low levels of dietary fat couldmake muscle cells more effective
at utilizing blood glucose.
And even with the addedcarbohydrate, your body was able
to process the blood sugar in away that offset having higher

(02:59):
carbohydrate in your diet.
There was an aspect of thisthat I was attracted to because
I know that I need glucose ifI'm pushing it really hard on
the bike.
I ate a low carbohydrate dietfor more than six months.
So I decided at that time tomake a shift to a very low fat
diet.
And my goal was to get mypercentage of calories from fat

(03:22):
down to around 10%.
I want to stress that to eatthis way, you need to have a
well thought out plan.
Fat is essential in a lot ofways, and eating very low fat
can cause problems.
I was following a plan thatspecifically focused on getting
high quality essential fats.
When I made the switch, what Isaw with the continuous glucose

(03:42):
monitor was very interesting.
Unfortunately, I didn't staywith the meal plan long enough
to make any valid assumptions ofthe impact.
Ultimately, I failed tomaintain the program.
I found the food to beexcellent.
Now it did take a while toadjust to eating less fat.
I had to get through a periodof being hungry a lot.
But the main problem with theprogram was that it was just too

(04:04):
complicated for me to do mealprep.
I was eating three meals a dayinstead of the two meal a day
plan that I had adopted wheneating low carbs.
Plus, in order to get thecomplex flavors in the recipes
that I had for low fat meals,the food prep was more
difficult.
It took more time to hunt downthe unique ingredients in the
recipes, and it took more timeto prepare the individual

(04:24):
dishes.
Because of that difficulty, Ieventually drifted back into
having no real dietary plan.
And as a result, I gained about10 pounds.
And I also stopped wearing acontinuous glucose monitor.
This weight gain has driven meto go back to eating low carbs
and higher fat and getting backto the place of using fat as my
main energy source.

(04:45):
However, I'm not totallyturning my back on a low fat
plan yet.
Currently, I'd like to lose 20pounds.
That would put me at thelightest I've been in probably
25 years.
Once there, I think I'll try tomake a switch again.
And between now and then, Ineed to figure out how to make
low fat meals more manageable.

(05:06):
I'm going to investigate theoption of switching occasionally
from low fat to lowcarbohydrate.
I'm not really sure who to talkto about this yet, but these
two plans are not reallyopposite strategies.
The way that low fat helps withblood glucose levels is very
different from the way that alow carbohydrate diet does.

(05:27):
It might not be unreasonablethat I can find a way to benefit
from the use of bothstrategies.
One thing that I've reallyenjoyed is meeting others in the

(05:58):
community who are advocatingfor bicycle and pedestrian
infrastructure.
What an awesome group ofpeople.
And one of those awesome peopleis Larry Levine, the executive
director of Forevergreen Trails.
I asked Larry to come on andtalk about Forevergreen Trails
and to talk in general abouttrail advocacy.
Our discussion is quite local,but at the same time, I believe

(06:20):
there is a lot to learn fromLarry that applies to anywhere
in the U.S.
Here is our discussion.
It's awesome to welcome LarryLevine, Executive Director of
Forevergreen Trails, to thepodcast.
Thank you, Larry, for joiningme.
Thanks for having me so much.
Appreciate it.
When we're on a trail or a pathor a protected bike lane, we
are using a resource that didn'tjust happen to come about.

(06:43):
There are teams of peoplebehind the scenes working to
make safe infrastructurepossible.
So today it's my pleasure tohave you here, Larry, because
you're one of those peoplemaking things happen.
My goal for this conversationis to have people know more
about organizations likeForevergreen Trails and how you
help projects get started andmove to completion.
First, here's an open questionthat I like to ask.

(07:05):
What is an early memory of youhave of a bicycle?

Larry Leveen (07:09):
Having to learn to ride a bicycle because I broke
the training wheel off of mybicycle, my first bicycle, which
had hollow wheels.
I don't know how that thatworks, but I remember riding it
around so much that I worethrough the the the tires.
But really it it happenedbecause uh yeah, you just you

(07:36):
know, so many quick turns, quickcurves uh on those training
wheels, and it just gave up theghost.
And you know, necessity's themother of invention, and I
guess.

Tom Butler (07:45):
Did you feel like you transitioned pretty well?

Larry Leveen (07:47):
Yeah, I I was just so enamored with uh the you
know feeling of speed.
And and frankly, it it's one ofthe first ways that a kid can
really feel empowered in theworld.
I mean, besides, you know,flinging mush peas, you know,
off the high chair, but youknow, move moving through 3D
space.
I mean, you know, it and and Iwas always very mobile uh as a

(08:08):
kid.
In fact, I was quite amischievous toddler as a result.
So I I was bound to be um heckon wheels, I guess.
Gotcha.

Tom Butler (08:17):
Did you keep cycling throughout your life or did you
leave it behind and get back toit?

Larry Leveen (08:21):
I biked a lot as a kid and even as a teenager.
Although I grew up in a prettyaffluent neighborhood, I was
never bought a car by my folks,right?
Um, and very rarely would theyever loan me a car.
So I had to get around.
Uh, in fact, my mom used tocall it, you know, if I would
ask her for a ride and she wouldsay, you know, deal with it

(08:44):
yourself.
She would call it, you know,take bus 11, but she'd make a
little walking symbol with herfingers, like each each leg is a
number one.
That's bus 11, as you get inthere on your own leg power.
I was riding my bike to myfriends' houses, you know, all
through elementary, middle, andand high school.
You know, there was noparticular infrastructure for
that.
In fact, I I we lived milesfrom a sidewalk, even though it

(09:08):
was uh, you know, so suburban,you know, subdivision on Long
Island, you know, it's no reasonto not have sidewalks, it's
just cars, that's success, youknow, in your goofy house in the
suburbs with lawns that youhave to mow and stuff like that,
and living miles and miles fromwork, school, shopping, etc.

(09:28):
Pretty weird.
We were fortunate to have apark to congregate to so we
biked there a lot.

Tom Butler (09:34):
Well, I have really enjoyed getting to know you and
getting to know ForevergreenTrails is the last few months.
And I'd like you to talk aboutwhat is important for people to
know about Forevergreen Trails.

Larry Leveen (09:49):
Sure.
Well, we are based in PierceCounty, Washington.
That's the same fabulous countyin which Mount Rainier and the
city of Tacoma and lots of othercool communities are located.
We serve that whole area andperhaps sometimes a little bit
beyond because you we also wantto make connections, you know,
to and from our neighboringcounties.

(10:10):
So we do kind of get involvedin in that way.
By and large, our mission is toaid in the build-out of our
regional trail system.
So there's there is a plannedregional trail system, a
conglomeration of all of theincorporated communities and the
unincorporated county.
They all have their respectiveeither trails plans or active

(10:34):
transportation plans.
And when you put all thosetogether, you get a regional
trails plan.
And our goal is to help withthe build out of that.
By and large, that meanshelping them fund it.
But sometimes they they evenlack the capacity to pursue the
grants that are needed for thatbuild-out.

(10:56):
So our technical assistancethat we can provide is largely
applying for grants on theirbehalf or any part of a grant
application.
It's a can be a large, largething with many steps and many
tasks.
So we'll do as much or much oras little as they want.
And we can even dopublic-private fund drives on
our website to help provide someof the matching funds that are

(11:17):
invariably needed for the trailprojects.
But we also help them, evenkind of upstream, if you will,
doing review of their of thosetrail plans and active
transportation plans that Imentioned, traffic safety plans,
the things that that are kindof the foundational
underpinnings of developing atrail system or a network of

(11:39):
trails.
That is the majority of ourwork, but there's a bunch of it
that's kind of behind the scenesas well.
There's legislative work Icould talk about, maybe we'll
get into later.
You know, a little bit ofpromotional and educational work
for the public and electedofficials and agency staff
folks.
But I don't think you have topromote trails too much to the

(11:59):
public.
I mean, it is, and if you buildit, they will come because
trails, everyone knows thatthey're so wonderful.
People really want to be there.
We don't have to tell folks,hey, use a trail.
It's fun.
They know.

Tom Butler (12:10):
Like I mentioned, you're one of those people that
are behind the scenes.
Most people that are on a trailthat you've been involved with
probably haven't even met you,probably don't even, you know,
mighty not even know aboutForever Green Trails.
Talk about as executivedirector, what what your days
look like?

Larry Leveen (12:29):
It is a lot of staying aware of uh it's like
there's a bunch of bunch of uhspinning plates, right?
And you have to always kind ofspin ones that are getting
wobbly and are gonna fall.
There are kind of a standardarray of plates that any any
nonprofit executive director hasto spin and prevent from
crashing down, right?
Thinks about making the wholeconcern run and membership and

(12:51):
donations and stuff like that.
But in terms of related to ourmission, it's really staying
informed about fosteringrelationships with all the staff
from the local agencies.
I mean, every city and townwithin the county and the county
itself and the park districtsas well, being aware of what
their planning efforts are,being aware of what their uh

(13:13):
design and can where they are indesign and construction for
different projects, um,including on-street facilities
that lead to or connect toregional trail systems.
Because, you know, when we'rewhen we talk about trails, we're
very often talking aboutfacilities that are separated
from the roadway, and not justnecessarily by you know a paint

(13:34):
stripe or or even just you knowsome uh bollard or some vertical
element, but usuallysignificantly separated.
That's it.
When we say on-streetfacilities, we mean everything
else, whether it's a bike, akind of more standard bike lane
or a shoulder, a stripedshoulder, a sidewalk, a shared
use path, a two-way, you knowbike line, whatever.

(13:56):
We pay attention to thoseprojects as well because they
are part of that you knowextended active uh
transportation, active mobilitysystem.
Yeah, I don't know if it's youknow correct to think of it as
like how we have you know feederstreets leading to our our
highways, and you know, trailsare the highways, and the

(14:17):
on-street facilities are youknow like like the like the
streets themselves for formotorists, but um, it's one way
to one way to think of it.
But staying aware of all thoseprojects as much as possible is
challenging.
There's also a lot of staffturnover actually at local
levels, you know.
Um bigger cities kind of slurpup uh staff from the smaller

(14:37):
cities because they can wavemore money at them.
And then there's invariably,you know, there's bigger cities
that take our city staff away.
But also, you know, stayingaware of policies, uh policy
issues and funding issues andopportunities, frankly, at the
local, regional, state, and evenfederal levels is something

(14:59):
that you know can take up asignificant amount of time, more
so at certain times of the yearwhen legislative session you
know is happening or when it's abudget year.
We have a biannual two-yearbudget in Washington state.
So a budget year, it's evenbusier than the non-budget
years.
Yeah.
It's a lot of relationshipbuilding over and over, whether
it's with local agencies or it'suh with other nonprofits or

(15:23):
community groups, uh businesses,et cetera.
A ton of time and energy goesinto the relationship building,
but that is that's time wellspent because that's how we get
stuff done.

Tom Butler (15:32):
Evergreen Trails is uh, you know, in my opinion, one
of the most effectiveorganizations here in where I
live in Pierce County.
And uh the expertise that youguys bring, and uh you know,
that's not something that justhappens immediately.
So, how has Fergreen Trailsgotten to this point where

(15:56):
you're bringing the expertise?

Larry Leveen (15:59):
Yeah, that that's a great question.
And it had a uh sort of an oddpath, if you'll pardon the pun,
to get there.
It was originally envisioned assort of, if you will, like a
quasi-public consultancy thatcould potentially have a
planner, a real estate person, adesigner, uh uh you know, GIS

(16:19):
person, and that localgovernments could utilize the
services of this semi-agency uhentity to plan for, design, and
develop trails.
The funding mechanism for thatdid not succeed, it was an
increment of sales tax, which isneeded legislative action.

(16:41):
And they tried once and it didnot pass.
It's rare actually to passlegislation on the first
go-around.
My understanding is that theynever tried again.
There was, you know, uh, Ithink a correct perception that
local governments needed help toplan and develop trails,
because I encountered thattoday, even.
So it was even more so in thepast.

(17:02):
Many of the jurisdictions hadno active transportation plans
or trail plans back then.
This is, you know, in themid-2000s.
What's different now is thatdespite the uh Forevergreen
Trails not being um funded inthe way that this kind of like,
you know, twinkle of an idea hadenvisioned, for various

(17:24):
reasons, many localjurisdictions did wind up
developing some sort of activetransportation, some sort of
trail plan.
And so the advocacy call fortrails or to have local
governments think about trailsand to plan for trails, because
it wasn't just, you know, atalent shop.
It was also going to educateand promote planning for trails.

(17:47):
Really, that call is now comingfrom inside the house, as the
saying goes.
Most of the jurisdictions havethese plans.
The trick is now to build thesethings out.
But getting back to that, howwe got there, I think without
that funding mechanism, I thinkfor for quite a while, for quite
a number of years, forEvergreen Trails was a little
bit uh floating around, notgrounded, didn't have uh as

(18:11):
concrete a way to accomplish itsmission of connecting Pierce
County's communities with anetwork of trails.
It tried to facilitateconversations as well as it
could, et cetera.
But without that backbone offunding, then we're only ever
able to have you know a partpart-time staffer.
And we're we're subsisting onyou know an occasional grant or

(18:33):
donation, things like that.
But I think that as a result,we didn't get as much done
potentially as we might have.
It turned out that very shortlyafter I was hired, one of the
foundations that was um fundinga good chunk of our operations,
they were funding a nonprofit,which we were a member of and

(18:53):
participating in.
And they said, okay, we'vewe've you know done our 10-year
mission experiment with thisthing and we're rolling it up.
And you know, you had you hadto figure out what to do.
And fortunately, we had a veryforward-thinking jurisdiction
board member jurisdiction,meaning local government board
member, the former parksdirector for Pierce County,
Roxanne Miles, who kind of tookup the gauntlet, perhaps thrown

(19:18):
in her direction uh by a localadvocate who you know, and
urging the local governments tofund for Evergreen Trails.
And so, to her credit, shesaid, okay.
And she kind of we worked on ittogether and figured out um how
to do that.
And so we have jurisdictionmembers, not all jurisdictions,
it's it's an optional thing.

(19:39):
And then we have jurisdictionmembership on our board, so they
have you know control and a sayover how we do what we do with
partially the funding that orthe funding that they are
partially providing.
We kind of got there in thisvery odd roundabout way.
We now provide the technicalsupport, even for a large

(19:59):
jurisdiction as large as PierceCounty, which has a trails
planner.
Sometimes they get caught shortand they need us to apply for a
grant on their behalf or to doany part of an uh of a grant
application or to do apublic-private fund drive on
their behalf.
So it's not just the smalljurisdictions that need our
help, but large ones as well.

Tom Butler (20:19):
Talk about the experiences that you've had in
your life that kind of informwhat you do today.

Larry Leveen (20:27):
I started, as I mentioned, cycling as a kid
because that was that was howyou get around your
neighborhood.
You just kind of do it becausethat's all you know, you don't
think about it necessarily toodeeply, potentially.
In uh in college, I was prettycommitted to as a budding
environmentalist, uh, someonewho's had an environmental
studies major, and we had afabulous bus system uh where I

(20:51):
went to college.
I would supplement that withjust biking to school a fair
bit, I guess because it wasenjoyable.
And that just stuck.
But you know, you start to, asyou would hopefully develop your
analytical brain and yourcritical thinking skills, etc.,
when you're in college and justbiking on those, you know, less

(21:11):
less residential streets andperhaps more busier streets, and
just experiencing theshortcomings of the built
environment for people who walk,bike, or roll.
And you start to, you know, youfeel it viscerally, right?
Everyone knows that feeling,whether you're, you know,
waiting at a bus stop or you'rewalking on down the street or
you're biking down a street of avehicle passing by either you

(21:33):
know too close or too fast or acombination, you feel those
shortcomings very viscerally.
And just thinking about thatand thinking about how much car
dependence we seem to have juststarted helping me put things
together and committing tolearning how to take care of my
bike, uh uh committing to thatbeing being my main form of

(21:53):
transportation and thereforealso learning how to take care
of it, to the extent of using mysome of my student loan money
to go to bike mechanic school.
That's a little side note.
It was perfectly good,perfectly good use of my student
loan, it turned out.
It just wound up feeding onitself.
But you know, that thatpersonal experience, uh,
frankly, as someone, you know,your podcast listeners can't

(22:16):
tell, but they might guess that,you know, I'm from what I've
said and everything, that I'm uha white guy who's, I guess,
fairly trim, fairly fit, andhave in short, a lot of
privilege.
Walking or biking through thebuilt environment of the United
States is one of the few waysthat a fit white guy, a tall,

(22:44):
physically able white guy, canfeel any semblance of sort of
lack of personal safety.
And and you know, it's it'slike you you feel your that
privilege kind of like dropprecipitously like a cliff.
And not to say that I I Iunderstand what oppression is

(23:05):
like for other people, but it'sa place where you know I just
simply don't have quite the samesafety and privileges that I
have everywhere else.
Not to say that I don't haveprivileges on our streets, I do,
and you can you can look intouh outcomes from that people of
color have uh from encounteringlaw enforcement versus uh versus

(23:29):
uh white folks.
There's a disparity there.
So I'm not dis discounting anyof that, but it's a place where
I could kind of first understanda need for uh something to
change for uh as a matter ofjust uh social justice to have a

(23:49):
more just world.
Because finally, guess what?
It affected me, right?
It's sort of like gettingthrough Siddhartha getting
outside of the palace and andseeing what the world is really
like uh in some way, shape, orform.
But really putting thattogether with uh
environmentalism, etc.
And I just started gettinginvolved in bike advocacy uh
mostly in grad school, and itjust fed on itself, fed on

(24:11):
itself, learned more abouttraffic safety, learned about
collision statistics, learnedabout outcomes of that, learned
about design, aspects of design,and then you wind up having,
you know, a level of competencythat you can really start to uh
apply in the world.
And fortunately, there aregreat mentors along the way.

Tom Butler (24:28):
What you talked about there, I've never thought
of, and it's so interesting tome because when I'm out on a
bike, there's a lot of placesthat there's a mentality of
people in cars that you don'tbelong here.
You're in my space and youdon't belong here.
And again, as a person withprivilege, I I don't get that a

(24:53):
lot.

Larry Leveen (24:54):
Very other end.

Tom Butler (24:55):
Yeah, that's right.
So that's man, that's a reallyinteresting observation.

Larry Leveen (24:59):
Yeah, yeah, it it it is interesting, but it's it's
good to, you know, kind ofmeditate on because you you can
maybe start to have an inkling,a remote inkling of what other
people's experiences might be inother sort of spheres and and
of society or or the world.
But at the same time, you know,even then we're retaining our

(25:21):
uh yeah chunk of privileges.
But yeah, it's it's kind oflike a huh.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm I'm a target heresometimes.

Tom Butler (25:28):
Yeah, that's interesting.
From your perspective, howwould you describe the
environment for cycling inPearce County?

Larry Leveen (25:36):
Well, a lot of the West is developed in uh a very
uh low density manner, because alot of the West was developed
post-World War II and of coursepost-automobile.
You know, there are certainlywithin you know plenty of of
West Coast cities, there's acore of you know, a good street
grid and a walkable area, whichone would hope could also lead

(25:59):
to a bikeable area if thefacilities are there, but at
least you know that density thatmakes it more human scale and
more practical to get around invia human power.
Much of the West is not thatway.
And um, once you're outside of,you know, the the larger cities
of you know, uh, Tacoma orSeattle or outside of Portland,

(26:22):
other places, and even in theNorthwest, once you're outside
of that urban core, you're oftendealing with really low density
sprawling land use.
That breeds auto dependencybecause if you need to cover a
certain distance to get toschool, work, or shopping, what
have you, I guess what peoplethink of as a reasonable amount

(26:44):
of time, it makes it lesspractical to do so by bike.
Not impossible, as many folksknow and or have come to
realize, um, who go either carfree or car light or have
transit they can get to.
I think that Pierce County ischaracterized by, in some ways,
um, the worst of both worlds, inthat I spent many years in

(27:08):
Thurston County, which is thecounty west of Pierce County.
It's low density, but alsorelatively low population.
Whereas Pierce County has amuch higher population, but also
low density.
And it made it sprawl evenmore.
If you have that kind oflandform and you're trying to

(27:28):
accommodate more folks, you'rejust gonna sprawl out.
And it winds up making for areally, really car-dependent
built environment.
And you will invariably,especially if you have um
something like I-5, Interstate5, a highway going through an
area that's uh a limited accesshighway, that interrupts your

(27:49):
street grid.
And what you're left with areyou know very few arterials that
cross that.
So all of your car traffic isconcentrated on those arterioles
that cross these highwaybarriers, and it makes those
streets even worse for peoplewho want to do any, get around

(28:10):
by any other means other thandriving.
So we are both at the countylevel and also at the uh
incorporated city level and townlevel in communities throughout
Pierce County, trying to kindof retrofit and make do things,
whether we're we're calling itcomplete streets, that's sort of
this moniker for uh, you know,a movement or a policy that

(28:31):
local governments can have tomake streets serve all users,
regardless of mode, whether youcall it that or you're just
trying to retrofit in a fewoptions or options, you know,
here and there, even if it's notyour standard for all of your
roadways.
We're doing this in retrofit,which is you know pretty ironic
because uh in many ways, inmany, in many places, and mostly

(28:54):
in you know our our cities, itwas all human scale.
And then it was to extend it,it was done by streetcar, and
those were torn out to make wayfor automobiles because that was
seen as progress.
But now we know that we're allchoking in congestion and air
quality issues and climaticissues as a result, so not to

(29:17):
mention personal safety soissues.
So yeah, Pierce County is kindof challenging because of the
entrenched land use.
Land use locks in mobilitypatterns and behavior.
And even if you rezonesomething, you still have,
however, the area's beendeveloped, and it takes a can

(29:37):
take you know decades toredevelop it and change
fundamentally how an area looks,feels, and operates, and how
people get around in it.
It's a challenging place.
And it's not unique to PierceCounty, it's it's all all over.
Uh, and we're just happening tobe a county that's you know
trying in some way, shape, orform to make change.
There's plenty of plenty ofplaces around that there.

(29:59):
They're like, no, we are in airquotes happy with the way that
is.
Like we see that as that's thenorm.
That's what success is inmodern society.
But thankfully, there are otherperspectives in uh throughout
Pierce County that are workingto make, I think, more positive
change.

Tom Butler (30:17):
Recently, forevergreen trails hosted the
annual Pierce County TrailsConference.
Talk to me about the purpose ofthat conference.

Larry Leveen (30:26):
Our conference has that underlying purpose of
gathering folks together,energizing them, right?
Just by being with other trailfans, whether you're trail user
advocate or your local agencystaff who works on these things,
you know, in some way, shape,or form, you would hope that
those would also be trail fans,right?
Elected officials whounderstand and support these

(30:48):
things.
So it's energizing in that way.
There's a lot of networkingthat's done where people meet
each other and make connectionsthat they then utilize in
advocacy work along the way.
The um the, you know, we havelots of consultants that work in
transportation planning anddesign also attend the
conference.
It's an opportunity to sharebest practices about trail

(31:10):
planning, design, construction,maintenance, or even
programming, um, how to makesure our trails are inclusive
for all and welcoming for all,regardless of your age, uh,
ability, economic strata, yourlanguage proficiency, it's uh,
etc.
There are you know things thatwe've done at our trails

(31:32):
conferences to address issues oflike access and equity and
making sure that not just theability to get to trails and the
trails themselves areaccessible for disabled folks,
but you can address issues ofsignage.
And you know, is an Englishsign uh sufficient for everyone?
Have you checked the box interms of accessibility, or do

(31:53):
you need to accommodate folkswho maybe English is their
second language, or they are lowor no vision, or whatever, like
everyone should be able toenjoy that trail.
So we explore issues like thatoften.
This particular conference, wewere focused on the update to
that regional trails plan that Imentioned.

(32:13):
Essentially, that is a chapterof the county's long-range parks
plan.
That's a every six years theyupdate this plan.
It's it's a requirement toaccess certain types of funding.
And so it's a definite.
Most local governments have along-range parks plan.
Sometimes they call them parkrecreation and open space plans,
or the letters in that alphabetC might change, you know, pros

(32:36):
plan, pros to plan, whatever youwant to call it, but a
long-range parks plan.
The regional trails plan beingjust a part of that was our
focus because it really sets outthe vision of what the
connections are going to bebetween jurisdictions and where
the facilities are going to gowithin the jurisdictions.
Uh, and for the unincorporatedpart of Pierce County, their

(33:01):
capital facilities plans ortheir investment plans of what
they're what they plan to do andwhen utilizing what funding
sources.
Those issues matter because,you know, there we already
brought up equity.
There's equity issues in termsof where you invest in trails.
You know, there are parts ofour of Pierce County that have

(33:24):
very few parks, no trails atall, very bad infrastructure,
lack of walking facilities, evensafe places to walk or bike.
You see that the effects ofthat in two places.
One is a higher rate of peoplebeing seriously injured and even
killed on our roadways becauseof lack of safe infrastructure.

(33:46):
But even you see it in terms ofchronic illness and shorter
life expectancy from some ofthese health problems are
dealing with uh or the types ofhealth problems are associated
with inactivity.
Why?
Because there's no safeinfrastructure for folks to be
active in.
We are focused not just ontrails and not just on

(34:08):
connecting trails, but also onhelp trying to ensure that we
are equitably, as a region,equitably investing in trails
and addressing some deficienciesthat certain parts of our
county have.
We've been pretty active inthat as well.
It's a really crucial documentand it bears the focus of not

(34:29):
just our conference, but a lotof my energy in uh fourth
quarter this year will befocused on that because they are
about to release the draft ofthis plan and then accept public
comment.
And I will be delving verydeeply into that and testifying
at our county council, etcetera, and informing our
partners about, you know, thegood as well as the bad.

(34:50):
That we want to give them kudoswhen they're doing the right
things, and we want to help themimprove to the degree that we
can.

Tom Butler (34:56):
One thing that's come out of this podcast and
just launched the fourth season,is I'm really convinced that
the bicycle is a medical device.
And you can look at me and youcan look at what health
conditions I turned around bybecoming active, and I have a

(35:17):
lot of work to do, and it'spretty essential to me with the
health conditions I have for meto be active.
And I think that you know, yousaid something there that
bicycle as a medical device, uh,you need to have safe
infrastructure if you wantpeople to get active, especially
for people who haven't beenactive, and you want them to get

(35:40):
active, you need to have placesthat are accessible and you
need to have places where theyfeel comfortable, otherwise
you're you're just not gonna doit.
So to me, active recreation isessential for health for you
know at least 50% of thepopulation.

Larry Leveen (36:01):
When you look at advertising for let's just take
the the the bike world, you lookat advertising for bikes and
bike gear, all of the imageryfor so long was just people who
look like me, skinny fit whiteguy.
So if you don't identify thatway, if you don't look that way,

(36:22):
are you maybe receiving amessage on some level, like you
don't belong, this isn't foryou?
Or even if you you maybe youused to identify that way, but
whatever, kids, life happened,and you know, you put on the the
COVID-20 or whatever, whateverit is, you just don't have that
college bot or whatever.
Then you might need a placethat is more like a fairly flat

(36:48):
trail as opposed to some perhapsscenic but very challenging,
like hill climb kind of route.
You might just need a placewhere you can just get a base of
fitness down, where you don'thave to worry uh about car
traffic perchance, or whereyou're just seeing other folks
who are like saying hey andencouraging you, where it's just

(37:09):
like it's so pleasant thatyou're breaking down as many of
the barriers to being active aspossible.
And and trails are great inthat regard.
Yeah.
As I mentioned, it's not justyou know land use that takes a
long time to turn around andchange once you have you know a
certain certain kind of land useand transportation system

(37:30):
serving it locked in.
The the projects can take awhile to deliver.
And I'm happy to say that justlast month, you know, we cut the
ribbon on a project inParkland, part of unincorporated
Pierce County, south of Tacoma,which has no trails, uh, very
few parks, et cetera.
Very characteristic of that anunderserved area.

(37:52):
We just cut the ribbon on theParkland Community Trail, the
first phase of a trail networkto serve Parkland and also
spanaway, the community justsouth of it.
That's going to help addressthe health disparities that we
see both in chronic illness aswell as what I call roadway
violence, serious injury anddeath that you see there.
It's demonstrably higher therethan other places.

(38:14):
Would you believe it?
The the life expectancy ofsomeone there compared to
someone in North Tacoma is 10years different.
Wow.
A variety of factors, right?
Not up to just one thing, butthat's just that's stunning.

Tom Butler (38:30):
Yeah.
10 years.
Talk about something like thatproject.
What's the timeline look like?

Larry Leveen (38:36):
Yeah, I mean, the unfortunately, it can take a
while.
A lot of the capital facilitiesplans are looking at for the
the long-range parks plan Imentioned, the regional trails
plan, is looking at a 10-yearcapital facilities plan.
That doesn't even mean that100% of the things on that
10-year plan get built withinthose 10 years, but they at

(38:58):
least look out that far.
And then they use other partsof the plan.
Well, it should be reflected inthat.
That should be a 10-yearprioritized capital facilities
plan.
So they they've kind of lookedat all of the potential places
where you know they want to havetrails, and we'll look at um
what they call a demand andneeds assessment, looking at who

(39:21):
has access to trails, where arethey, where are they not, what
are the demographics, andthankfully these days trying to
address underserved communities.
And so, like that can providesome prioritization for a
project, a trail project in anarea like Parkland, like
Spanaway, also like um SouthHill, south of Puallop in
unincorporated Pierce County isanother such area.

(39:44):
And even with theprioritization that we're
seeing, that's why not just theParkland Community Trail, but
the pipeline trail that you andsome of your listeners might be
familiar with, heading sort ofsoutheast out of Tacoma and into
unincorporated Pierce County.
Pierce County is building thatpartially because it is going to
an underserved area with fewsidewalks, few parks, et cetera.

(40:08):
Even with that prioritization,it can take five, 10 years to
make any kind of difference toeven get a single phase of a
trail developed.
And why is that?
I would say for a couple ofreasons.
We are retrofitting thesethings.
And we largely have, you know,a street system, and we are
retrofitting in trails where wecan, as we can.

(40:29):
But also, there's just frankly,there's not a mandate for
trails.
There's not the same kind ofmandate, even in state law, that
there is for roadways.
In Washington State, we have alaw called the Growth Management
Act.
If you're a developer and I'mthe, you know, the city and
you're gonna develop some housesor commercial development, I

(40:52):
can require you to make someimprovements to help with the
traffic that that's gonnagenerate.
But then also, you know, thatwinds up affecting the overall
transportation network.
And pretty soon I'm gonna havemaybe delays, congestion at a
traffic signal.
Well, the state law says that Ihave to maintain a certain

(41:14):
level of service.
They don't dictate what it hasto be.
The local government uh assignslevels of level a level of
service for every intersection.
But once you're failing that,you need to address it within a
certain amount of time, or youstart running afoul of
collecting transportation impactfees, which are supposed to go
to address things like thosedeficiencies.

(41:36):
We do not have a similar systemfor trails.
There is no policy mandate thatrequires local governments to
have trails.
Local governments have adoptedtheir own transportation plans
that include or recreation plansthat include active mobility
projects like trails, but theyare not required to.

(41:58):
And there is less financialsupport for things that are not
required.
Now, there are changes that arehappening.
Just a couple sessions ago,there is uh legislation that
clarified that trails areeligible for transportation
impact fees if it can be shownthat the that the trail has a

(42:18):
significant transportationfunction.
So a beautiful recreationaltrail out in the hinterlands
maybe not would not qualify.
But a but you know, localagency staff, if they can show
that this trail has atransportation function,
significant transportationfunction, they can use impact

(42:41):
fees, transportation impact feesfor that.
We've gone decades until thatchange.
So there's some efforts.
This isn't thankfully anevolving ongoing thing to try to
align funding, alignpriorities, align even even
within grant programs, criteriathat help local governments

(43:02):
either make multimodal uhtransportation projects, if not
standalone active transportationprojects, including trails?

Tom Butler (43:11):
I'm certainly interested in doing whatever I
can, whatever limited influencethat I have, and or I can, any
limited influence influence Ican acquire here to advocate for
more policy, because you know,you talked about the 10-year

(43:32):
difference in lifespan, but it'sa major economic impact too.
And I just to me, activerecreation, active
transportation is so importantfor the health of people in the
US that you it warrants policy.

(43:53):
You had Pierce County executiveRyan Mello open the Pierce
County Trails Conference.
Can you talk about the benefitof having leadership at that
level supporting the work oftrails?

Larry Leveen (44:08):
One of the most important maxims of advocacy is
get the right people electedbecause you need to have
material you can work with, asthe as the saying goes.
I mean, Ryan happens tounderstand and be a very active
supporter of trails and user oftrails.

(44:29):
So he's a fellow advocate.
You know, not everyone might bein that kind of situation, but
you need to have someone whowill at least listen to you.
You know, you need thatmaterial you can work with.
Even for the for you know anelected official who who is an
advocate, you need, you can'tjust sit back, you can't say, I
voted, and now let my will bedone in the built environment.

(44:51):
No, you have to actively, youand your fellow advocates, have
to get organized, show up atcity or county council meetings,
and just have a steady voicefor trails, for walking, for
biking, for traffic safety,whatever, whatever your um your
issue or issues are.
Because politicians aregenerally not proactive.

(45:13):
They are reactive.
Very few elected officials willstep off into the unknown.
It's like stepping off,stepping out on a cliff.
You have to be right thereproviding that pathway for them.
And you don't have to knowexactly what's needed.
You just need to let them knowwhat they're what you, as their
constituent, want to see in thecommunity.

(45:35):
They can direct staff, they canapprove a budget that directs
funding for projects that youknow address those needs.
So you don't need to be asubject matter expert.
I mean, I identify as a policynerd, um, as a policy wonk, as
you know, a traffic safetyfanboy, whatever.
You don't have to be aswell-versed in jargon, all the

(46:00):
alphabet soup of transportationplanning, but you need to show
up and use your voice in aconstructive way and hopefully
also in a concise way, in aplanned way, where you've
planned out what you're going tosay.
And in an organized way,because it really needs to not
just be you every whatever it isTuesday night showing up at

(46:22):
open at open mic, because it'seasy for some folks, some
electives to say, or even staffto say, oh, that's that one guy
with that one issue, or that onegal with that one issue.
Ideally, you'll get together,and we recently had a meeting
where we were chatting aboutthis, kind of organizing a group

(46:44):
of folks.
So it's just different facesshowing up.
And that also makes it easier,frankly.
If everyone shows up, this isthe one month a year that I go
and talk, you know, because wehave enough folks in our little
group, and I talk about thisthing, it's like, wow, we're
we're seeing like 50 differentpeople showing up every year to

(47:06):
talk about different issuesaround cycling or walking or
whatever.
Right.
This is a broader base in thecommunity.
They then, you know, either getreminded of, you know, just
keeps it in top of mind.
It's also, you know, whenthey're in their deliberations
with their colleagues, they canpoint to it and remind them
we're hearing this from thepublic is telling us thus and
such.

(47:26):
And that's why I'm supporting anew fund for safe, safe street
crossings, a new capital programfor safe street crossings, for
example.
That's really important.
Now, how do you get that kindof training?
Fortunately, there areorganizations around that that
help.
We are more of a facilitator interms of we let folks know

(47:50):
where and when theseopportunities are for training.
And there are other partnerorganizations that we work with.
For instance, Tacoma on the go,recently renamed Tacoma on the
go, provides advocacy trainingfor the Greater Tacoma area.
So folks know how to talk toelected officials in an
effective manner.

(48:10):
Also, uh organizations likeWashington Bikes have an annual
lobby day in our state capitol,and they educate folks about
issues, whether it's specificlegislation or budget issues, et
cetera.
And they will provide training.
And not only that will kind offacilitate setting up all of the
meetings with your electedofficials and give you talking

(48:33):
points and really smush downthat learning curve.
In the recreation world,there's a really big tent
organization called theWashington Wildlife and
Recreation Coalition in our inour state.
And they similarly have a lobbyday for all supporters of
outdoor recreation uh fundingand legislation.
The good news is that there isa uh sort of a Betty Crocker

(48:55):
path where you don't even needto know, you don't have to be a
baker, you can still havesuccess and come out with the
cake.
There are organizations outthere, and you know, if you're
outside Washington Statelistening to this, you just need
to find those organizations andhook up with them and uh expose
yourself a little bit to someof these resources.
And it's it's amazing.
I have a friend who has apresentation.

(49:18):
It's called How 10 People CanChange a City.
It outlays some of thesepoints.
It really is true.
You can just a small group offolks acting in an organized
fashion can have a lot ofeffect.

Tom Butler (49:30):
Are you connected nationally to different
organizations enough to kind ofis Washington unique, or do you
think pretty much whereverlisteners are, they're going to
be able to find organizationsthat are advocating for safe
spaces, for for connectedspaces, for connecting
communities, things like that?

Larry Leveen (49:51):
There's a saying all businesses local.
So sometimes you know you'llyou'll have things, uh issues in
Washington state which don'ttranslate to another state
potentially, or you know, evenone city to another within the
state.
So it depends on what you'retalking about, if it's like a
funding mechanism.
It could be a certain type ofyou know tax that's available or
revenue stream that's availablein in our area that's not

(50:13):
available, you know, relevant inIdaho or or Oregon or whatever,
whatever, or vice versa.
But certainly there arenational organizations, um,
whether it's like the League ofAmerican Bicyclists or, you
know, in our case, we work a lotwith or are watching the Rails
to Trails Conservancy provideaction alerts about federal

(50:36):
funding and federal policyissues.
Fortunately, the I mean theinternet makes it easy for folks
to access websites like StrongTowns.
It's not necessarily like theLeague of American Bicycles,
it's just like Strong Towns islike that's like the League of
Good Community, you know,community livability or other
resources.
You know, you go on YouTube andyou know, really popular

(50:58):
channel is City Nerd, or youknow, not just bikes is another
another.
And you can you can learn a lotand get exposed a lot and see
how other communities or othercountries do things and use that
as inspiration.
There are lots ofopportunities, but in most
places there are shoulders tostand on if if folks just uh

(51:19):
make a little bit of an effort.
It's pretty rare that you haveto start something completely
from square one.

Tom Butler (51:26):
Talk about what you would like to see from a funding
perspective.
It seems like there's a needfor people, and it also seems
like there's a shift in fundinghappening, especially at the
federal level.
Seems like there's a need forpeople to understand more how
their contribution, whether itbe financial or getting involved

(51:48):
in activities, whatever, inorder to keep things moving
forward in the future.

Larry Leveen (51:54):
We all have our abilities and frankly our
preferences.
Uh, some folks they just hatepublic speaking.
And and you don't have tospeak, you can be writing,
right?
But even that, if some folksaren't able or willing to do
that, they can write a check andhelp support an advocacy
organization who is working tocreate change in their

(52:17):
community.
Whether you're getting activepersonally or you know, be
writing a check, those are bothways to be involved.
And it doesn't have to be aneither or it can be a both.
And unfortunately, we areseeing a complete shutdown of
federal funding, many types offederal funding for active
mobility.
And with a really regressivemove towards only supporting

(52:43):
automobile mobility, there'sbeen a clawback, meaning a
taking back of unallocated,unawarded funds in several grant
programs.
And in fact, many grants thatwere awarded for active
transportation or otherprojects, clean energy,

(53:03):
transportation, electrificationgrants that were awarded are
being canceled by the federalgovernment uh simply because
they were not yet undercontract.
I expect that the uh the grantprograms that fund these kinds
of things are going to be uhdismantled by the current
administration.
So there's no sugarcoating it.

(53:25):
This administration is acomplete nightmare for cycling,
for walking, for anything otherthan driving and experiencing
more congestion on our roadways.
That's what their policies willlead to.
As a knock-on effect, there isgoing to be increased pressure
in our state legislatures tofund these kinds of active

(53:48):
transportation projects.
And it's going to be difficultbecause it's not simply the
transportation sector that theadministration, the federal
administration, is defunding.
They're defunding anything thatdoesn't align with their
politics, and that includessocial services, et cetera.
And so there's going to be atidal wave of competition at

(54:10):
state legislatures and then atlocal levels, competition for
funding.
I cannot fault an electedofficial who, I'm going to use
hyperbole here, who chooses toprevent someone from going
hungry rather than build atrail.
I'm not saying it that is thedecision before them, but with

(54:31):
dollars being a finite resourcein our governmental budgets,
there is going to be morecompetition because of the
federal administration.
So we are entering a reallytough time for active
transportation.
It behooves us to have, youknow, my job is to help make
sure that Pierce County is aswell positioned as possible so

(54:54):
it can compete in that morecompetitive environment.
So making sure that weunderstand all the grant
programs that are available andwhat their criteria are.
And we're reaching out to ourjurisdiction uh members and
potential members to say, like,hey, you need to be aware, this
things are going to be tougherthis year.
And we have the data to showit.
The projects are getting moreexpensive and there are more

(55:17):
requests for them, and fewer ofthem get funded.
You know, there's a bigopportunity cost for or
significant opportunity cost forapplying for a grant.
So when you apply for a grant,you really need to win because
when you don't, you've justspent all that time and energy.
And that's not cheap.
Staff time is can be prettyexpensive.

(55:39):
So you wanna every time to usethe baseball metaphor, every
every time you go to bat, youwant to hit a home run, you want
to bring home those dollars.
It's gonna be tougher.
Probably the next three yearsare gonna look pretty tough,
pretty grim in terms of federalfunding, by and large.
There will be some federalpass-through funding that goes

(55:59):
to our regional governments inour area, Puget Sound Regional
Council.
I'm still expecting there to befederal funding that they
choose to use in our region foractive transportation projects,
including trails.
But there are some humongousdollars that are just being only

(56:20):
directed towards highwayprojects.
It's a real shame.

Tom Butler (56:25):
Uh it's kind of hard to look out into the future
right now, it seems like,because you could have a change
of administration and go back towhere there's a value in
addition to cars.
I think there's always going tobe value placed on

(56:45):
transportation by automobile.
But to have administration thatadds to that an understanding
and a value of activetransportation.
But given that that it might bekind of hard to just you know
see the future, do you have somethoughts about where you'd like
to see Forever Green Trails goas an organization?

Larry Leveen (57:07):
We want to try to foster the in the process
leading up to the this thisregional trails plan update uh
that I've mentioned, the countyconvened some meetings of
jurisdictions uh in different uhportions of the county itself.
So these cities, you know, inthis, like in the northeast part

(57:28):
of the county, these cities,we're gonna have a meeting and
and talk about their trailprojects, et cetera, um, and
these kind of cohorts, if youwill, west side and then you
know the south area, et cetera.
It may be that since trailconnections are crucial, just
like for roads, right?
If you just had a strip ofroad, it wouldn't get much use
if it wasn't connected to otherroads.

(57:49):
Trails are the same in thatregard.
So we are really focused ontrying to make some of the
connections and fill in some ofthe gaps that we have in Pierce
County, even, you know,regardless of jurisdiction.
So that requires coordination.
And so looping back with thosecohorts and seeing if, like, for

(58:11):
instance, you know, the citiesof Milton and Edgewood have two
of the last remaining gaps inwhat we call the the east-west
portion of the interurban trail.
Um, our friends north of uswould say this the southern
interurban trail.
And fair enough.
What we call the interurbantrail, there's there's a
north-south portion and aneast-west portion.

(58:31):
And the whole north-southportion is completed,
thankfully.
And the east-west portion hasthree gaps, one of which is
currently being worked on by thecity of Sumner.
But Edgewood and Milton eachhave challenging gaps in that
trail.
And so we're trying to just hada meeting with staff from both
of those cities, and we're goingto be exploring, partnering on

(58:53):
grants that address both ofthose gaps to complete the
trail, because it might be thatgrant agencies appreciate and
more highly rank a grant requestthat completes a trail instead
of filling in just another gap.
That's one of the things thatwe'll be trying to do is work in
these uh regional cohorts as itmakes sense.

(59:16):
But really, to the focus is onfilling some crucial gaps.
We currently have a fund drivegoing for the city of Piwallop
to fill in the last gap on thePuallop Riverwalk Trail.
Once the Milton and Edgewoodgaps are filled in in the
interurban trail, the PualpRiverwalk gap is filled in.

(59:36):
I mentioned the city of Sumneris filling in their gap from a
significant effort, advocacyeffort, in uh years earlier.
We were able to get a trailincluded in a highway extension
that Washington State is doingin Pierce County.
Um, SR 167 has a trail includedin that overall project.

(59:57):
Once those are completed.
We will have an 18-mile trailloop connecting Pullop, Sumner,
Pacific, Edgewood, Milton, andFife.
And that'll be neat, not justnot just enjoyable, but it's
nice to do a loop trail ratherthan an out and back, in my
opinion.
I like that a little more.
But you know, we're reallyconnecting communities and

(01:00:18):
population centers.
And that's something that weare interested in doing and
looking forward, but also beinga continual watchdog and making
sure that we are, as a region,equitably investing in active
transportation and activerecreation.
So continuing that work inParkland, Spanaway, and South

(01:00:40):
Hill.

Tom Butler (01:00:41):
Thank you so much for coming on, Larry.
I really have enjoyed gettingto know you, and I look forward
to working together and have youhelp me become more skilled at
advocating for things.
And I really believe in theconcept of exercise as medicine.
And I think trails are vital tothat.

(01:01:03):
So I see the work that you'redoing at Forevergreen Trails is
part of that, part of thatpicture of bringing more healthy
opportunities to people allover the county.
And then I I think that ourcounty can be an example to
other places too.
So thanks for coming on andthanks for everything you do.

Larry Leveen (01:01:26):
My pleasure.
It's great to talk with you tobe on the podcast and to now
work with you in your capacityfor the Tacoma Washington Bike
Club.
Really important partner for usas an organization and in our
in our region as you're findingout more and more each day in
your capacity, your governmentalaffairs capacity.
So it's a pleasure to be withyou.

Tom Butler (01:01:46):
Yeah, well, I know we'll be talking more later.
So I'll talk to you then.
Happy Trails.
I don't think there are manyplaces that aren't impacted by

(01:02:16):
tighter budgets for alternativetransportation.
And I do think everyone needsto elevate the way we ask for
funds.
And that might mean findingyour local Larry Levine.
I would encourage everyone toget involved in advocating for
safe places to ride.
As Larry suggested, take a bitof time here and there to attend
meetings and express theimportance of active recreation

(01:02:38):
for you.
Whether you are active in localbike advocacy or just starting
to consider how to get involved,I hope that where you're riding
you can fully enjoy yourselfand all your cycling adventures.
And remember, age is just agear change.