October 29, 2025 • 64 mins
For the 74th episode of the podcast, we trace Robb Stark’s rise from dutiful heir to fallen king, mapping how honor, loyalty, and love collided with power and changed the war. The story moves from early victories to political fractures, culminating in the Red Wedding and the lesson it carved into the North.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again?
It was the dragons we bowed to.
And now the dragons again.
There! Sick's the only king Imean to bend my knee to.
The king of the north.
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
I'll have peace on those terms.
They can keep their red castle.
And their iron chair, too.
The king in the north.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
Am I your brother?
Now and always.
Now and always.
My sword is yours in victory anddefeat.
From this day until my last day.
The king of the north.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
My name is Minua and I'm here with my co-host Tony,
and we're here today with a veryspecial character-focused
episode.
It's an episode we've teased andpromised for a while now, ever
since our Game of Thrones season3 recap, but we had to delay it
till now since we had to talkabout the first trader we got
for the new Thrones spin-offshow and I to the Seven
Kingdoms.
That was our previous episode,so be sure to check that out if
you haven't already.
So we're all up to date and knowwhat to expect when we get that
(01:55):
series in January.
But for now, we're ready to divedeep into an essential and
beloved Game of Thronescharacter and his downfall, Rob
Stark.
Tony, are you ready for thisepisode?
We've been prepping for it forquite a while now.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
We have, and I feel like I'm not fully prepped,
which is weird.
Like there's so much informationI want to get to.
And yeah, we'll we'll we'llstart from the beginning.
Yeah, and in the show, Rob is ayoung tyke with uh John and his
brothers and sisters.
And in in the book, for thosewho haven't read it, Rob is only
(02:27):
14 years old when this storybegins.
When you look at it, it's prettycrazy to think that all all the
actually all the characters aremuch younger than they are in
the show.
You know, you have even Daenerysis 14.
We actually actually don'treally see a lot of Rob in his
character in that first episode.
We see him actually in thedinner with Yeah, the the Stark
(02:49):
Dinner.
The start dinner um welcomingthe king, and we see him having
fun with Arya, throwing food toSansa's face.
So that's to me, he's still akid at heart.
He's laughing at a food fight,you know.
So then uh we get to see himagain, I think when he is saying
bye to John.
(03:09):
So we don't get to see much ofwho he is as a as a person until
he is thrust into leadershipwhen Ned leaves, and then he is
the acting lord of Winterfell.
SPEAKER_03 (03:22):
Okay, okay, hold on a bit, Tony, because I think you
just wanted to dive deep intoeverything we know about Rob and
talk about like what we see onthe show.
But there's actually like a lotof information we know from his
backstory, um, like hischildhood and how he grew up,
just like a little bit, somestuff that we can gather from
the books or like supportingmaterials that are all
considered canon, even though wedon't really see it in the show.
(03:42):
You know, as you said, we seehim at 14, we don't see any of
his like formative childhoodyears, but there's a lot of
information that like can get usto warm up to Rob a little bit
more and just add to the contextof who he is.
They it's just it's just nice toknow, you know.
Rob was born River Run, near theend of Robert's Rebellion, with
the aid of Maester Lewin.
(04:03):
He was there way back when hewas always with the Starks.
Um, he is his father's soncharacter, valuing justice and
honor above all.
He was always like acting likethe heir, you know what I mean?
Like he never uh rebelledagainst that or denied that or
anything like that.
And he was always caring for hissiblings and setting a good
example for them to follow,being the typical responsible
older brother.
(04:23):
Um, everyone looked up to him,you know.
Uh Ariel wants to be as strongas he was.
You mentioned that scene in thedinner, but Sansa and Bran
admired his bravery all thetime.
That's what that's what wasnoted.
And he was always caring towardsBran.
And he was, of course, closefriends with uh John and the
Starks were Dion.
There's no mention of hisrelationship with the youngest,
(04:44):
Rikon, but of course, we knowthat Rob would never leave
anyone out.
He's all about that Ohana life.
Um, and uh it's noted that Roband John were always very close.
That's something that we can seeclearly in the show as well,
like the results of thechildhood bond that they formed.
Um, because of course they arelike the same age.
(05:04):
They trained together ever sincethey were old enough to walk.
They played together, they theyplayed pranks on everyone, the
guards, their siblings.
They even hid in the crypts andscared Bran.
And Bran ended up crying back toRob.
Like he went to Rob for comfort,even though Rob wasn't on the
prank, just shows how close theywere and how he saw Rob as like
that comforting older brotherrather than, you know, like the
(05:24):
mean older brother that buddiedhim.
No, he he knew that Rob was likegonna be there for him, even
though he he was the one thatpranked him.
So that was always like theimage that he gave off.
He was the loving, responsibleolder brother, and I think
that's why like many of us lovehim and warm up to him.
Because if you think about it,even though he seems like a
stereotypical heir, there's noone else in George's world
(05:44):
that's like that.
You know what I mean?
Like all the other heirs or uhlike young lordlings, they're
not like Rob, you know, Tyrionisn't like that, uh Jamie isn't
like that, like no one is, likeeven the the women, Sansa's is
not the same, you know what Imean, like as the lady of the
house, like the the young lady.
She's not the same.
Cersei obviously isn't the same,uh Danny isn't the same.
(06:07):
Like he seems like a very stristereotypical prince character
in fiction, but in George'sworld, it's just him.
And I think that uh it's a veryinteresting like uh archetype
for George to use because youknow the typical Rob Stark
prince is always gonna be like,you know, the hero, the prince,
like in a way, the type ofprince that Sansa dreams about,
(06:31):
you know what I mean?
Like that's the kind of like theideal man, you know, the ideal
hero.
But obviously, like because thisis George's world, there's no
happy ending for this heroiccharacter.
I mean, he's very protagonistmaterial, uh, similar to John.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Do you think that Rob is, as you say, like not as
other lords' kids or princelybecause he had a stable parents
who actually cared for him andlooked out for him and loved
him?
And like not Lannisters didn'tlove their kids.
You think Tywin, when he says,Oh, I taught Jamie had I don't
(07:07):
believe that for one second.
Uh the Lannisters didn't reallyhave their mother.
Uh she, you know, she died inchildbirth.
So I maybe Cersei and Jamie hadtheir mom for a little bit, but
not for their whole life.
And then Daenerys obviously wasan orphan for her life.
SPEAKER_04 (07:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Um, so to have a father like Ned is like one in a
million in this world.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
That's true.
And usually in fiction, if you'dsee a guy like our character
that's as good as Ned, theywould usually already be dead.
Do you know what's I mean?
And then the the they wouldn'tbe present in the story for us
to see how they would influencethem and the rest of the world.
So um I think that yeah, in away, it does it can be
considered a result of havingthe most quote unquote normal
(07:55):
family in George's world.
But at the same time, like Idon't know why, but uh for me, I
feel like Rob turned out thatway, but Sansa kind of didn't
turn out to be the stereotypicallady, like she did.
But at the same time, like she'snot the caring older sister.
She hates Aria.
She's not to Arya what Rob is tohis younger brothers, you know
(08:17):
what I mean?
And you could it could be saidno, it's because Aria's Reberis,
but at the same time, like Ithink that Rob and Sansa are are
in a way a typical lord and atypical lady, but he's more like
I guess a st of a stereotypethan she is.
He's more uh I don't want to sayhe's he's more good, you know
what I mean?
Because I I it's not that I'mnot saying Sansa is bad, but you
know, Sansa does have that inher rob, you don't you won't see
(08:39):
him hating Bran for beingrebellious if Bran were as
rebellious as Arya, you know,and he doesn't see Arya herself
as wrong for not being ladylike.
He he he encourages that, youknow, the same way that they
would have encouraged uh Lianaand that Ned would have uh that
encouraged it.
You know what I mean?
Like uh they're quite different,so I think that he's the most uh
(09:01):
like stereotypical kind of veryI'm gonna bring in a different
franchise here, but very typicalGryffindor, you know what I
mean?
Like a very typical noble, goodguy, the same way his father is,
but more like uh when he whenyou see it's in a younger prince
type of character, you kind ofroot for him in a different way
than seeing him as like a thefatherly figure of Ned.
So uh typical hero in a way, butyeah, we know how his story
(09:25):
ends, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, the one thing when I when I re-watch the show
or reread the books is I alwayshave that wishful thinking that
the story's gonna be different,and then I go, damn you, George,
why didn't you give us Rob andJohn together?
So wish we could have seen themtogether in battle.
And to you know, man, like ofcourse we can't have that
(09:46):
because John needs to be at thewall, blah blah blah blah blah.
Whatever.
I'm just like just just forseeing uh Kit Harrington and
Richard Madden, you can feelthat second episode when they
say goodbye, like they hug eachother, and you could feel like
these they're real, like they'rebrothers, they they say they're
happy, but they're like realbrothers, and that that hug
(10:09):
always gets me because likethat's it.
They're never gonna see eachother, and I just wish that oh,
just escape.
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's what I was on that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Yeah, but anyway, my whole point of that was to say
that I wish we could have gottentheir relationship more on
screen, but you know, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (10:28):
Yeah, I I wish so as well.
And I think that is a very coreRob scene when he says goodbye
to Rob, because you do see howhe appreciated John the same way
that's kind of Arya did, and heyou get the sense that he is a
good guy that didn't really lookdown on on John or blame him.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
We can see right away that he he falls into that
leadership role.
It it doesn't take him bysurprise.
Because even before he's theLord of Winterfell, he's the
Lord of Winterfell, but evenwhen Catelyn is still in
Winterfell, she's not therebecause she's with Bran 24-7.
And she remember, she's shedoesn't want to deal with
(11:04):
anything.
And so for that whole month andwhatever, you know, Rob is
already taking care of all themeetings, he's taking care of
all the ins and outs of all thelittle things that have to go in
running this this this you knownorthern, vast northern not I
won't say kingdom, but you knowI mean like land of people he
has to he has to worry about.
(11:26):
So he was he was already kind ofgetting that in the training
before she actually left.
SPEAKER_03 (11:58):
Yeah, definitely.
It's said that like when he wasyoung, before he reached the age
of 14, obviously because that'swhen we meet him, he was as you
said, always attending themeetings.
He was prepared uh by the timethat he had to step into that
role.
He wasn't just like like facedwith that responsibility out of
nowhere.
He saw his father do uh you knowwhat he did and and embodied
(12:21):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
So I think that's one of the reasons why some
people were kind of warmed up tohim later on, which is that's
kind and that's kind of what wecan talk about next, which is
him uh coming into his own asRob Stark King in the North when
Ned is beheaded because you knowwe have I think episode four of
(12:42):
the show, season one, whenTyrion returns to Winterfell
when he's going back to King'sLanding.
You know, we have that suspicionof the Lannisters being at fault
on Bran's fault, like they havesomething to do with it.
And you can see Rob's face whenhe's talking.
He has he's so dismissive ofTyrion, you know, like he has
such an attitude, and then whenhe can see that Tyrion has did
(13:03):
something good for Bran, becausehe created that uh for for Bran
to ride a horse, yeah, like thesaddle thing, the saddle
contraption, and then say, Hey,you know, you take it to your
person, they'll make this foryou.
And then he's like, Oh well, youdid a kindness to my brother,
you can stay.
And and you know, Tyrion is sucha so waiting, he's I I know when
I'm not wanted, you know, I'lljust go to whatever I'm going
(13:24):
there.
So we had a few episodes of Robjust holding the fort, so to
speak.
SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
We had him confronting the wildlings when
they wanted to kill Bran.
Um, and then I think the episodelater is when they get the
letter from Sansa saying thatyou need to come to King's
Landing and swear fealty to theyou know King Joffrey, and
that's when he calls his firstbig move as Lord of Winterfell
(13:53):
is to call the banners.
Yeah, after that letter, I meanit's right away you get to Rob
and he is going into a battle.
You know, it's already likeright away.
There's no there's no like uhpussyfooting around, it's just
straight to let's go, you know,because then you have Tywin
saying, Oh, we have two thousandor twenty thousand Stark men
(14:15):
here, two thousand, you know,they get confused, and the
reason why is because Rob wentin full force to attack Jamie's
crew in the Whispering Woods andget Jamie or capture Jamie, uh,
which leads to a great speech byRob.
And if you go to our coverage ofthat episode, you will you'll
hear Minwa describe Rob Stark asmajestic.
(14:44):
And that was uh two years agowhen I'm back.
SPEAKER_03 (14:51):
He did look majestic.
What else do you want me to say?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
I'm I'm gonna I agree with you.
The hair is glistening, the thethe sun is being you know, his
he's on top of this rock, youknow, this amazing speech.
He just captured Jamie, he's ontop of the world.
You know, what else?
I mean, I agree with you.
Not Sam, I'm saying I agree withyou.
Okay, good.
(15:15):
Obviously, that's a big turningpoint in the whole landscape of
the war.
Uh, this was before theexecution of Ned, mind you.
So they have Rob.
I mean, they have Jamie, somaybe they're like, well, maybe
we can, you know, Tion's like,just cut cut his head off right
away.
It's just like so.
(15:36):
Like, shut up.
Why are you here?
Anyway, uh, they could have theyhad the bargaining chip, you
know.
That was their chip to try toget Ned or the girls, or you
know, Arya and Sansa.
And we'd all know what happensin that episode.
You know, we have Ned'sexecution.
Yeah, and that that's when yousee that the following episode
(15:58):
is when Richard Madden does agreat job and showing his anger
and his grief and his pain oflosing his father when he's
chopping the tree, and he'slike, I'm gonna kill them all.
And and you know, yeah, it'slike, no, we gotta get the
girls, and then we'll kill themall.
SPEAKER_04 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
So that kind of uh starts the the ball, you know,
rolling, I guess.
We can move on to one one of thethe moments I think was a
mistake and might have been uhattributed to this future
downfall is him being the clearking of the north.
(16:38):
And I know you said you had uhan imposing view.
I I I think that it was a rashdis decision.
You have all these northernlords, they're all drunk, you
know, they're like you know,well, you know, they're just
shouting stuff out, you know,like you know, okay.
The dragons of the moment, youknow, you know, only time we
(16:59):
bowed down was to the dragons,and you know, they're dead, who
the care, you know, we're gonnaonly the king of the north.
And I just think it wasn't apolitically savvy move to just
say I'm the king.
In hindsight, Rob, that's notwhat what was Rob's motive.
His motivation was to get hisfather back, and he could have
(17:19):
cared less about being the kingof the north.
I think it's hard too, becauseif he would have said, Okay,
guys, come on, calm down.
We don't want to do that, maybehe would have lost those guys.
He would have lost thosealliance.
So I I guess he was put in uhwas a rock and a hard place.
But I think that moment was keybecause if he's not king of the
(17:42):
north, if he would have justsought out alliances instead of
declaring himself I'm K, I'mking.
I I don't know.
What what do you think?
SPEAKER_03 (17:50):
Okay, so before we started recording, you said,
Yeah, I'm gonna talk about theking Herald being king of the
north and how that was amistake, and I obviously reacted
to that, as you said.
I was like, What?
Why do you call that a mistake?
And you're like, oh, I'll talkabout it and stuff.
And I understand your your whatI understand what you're trying
to say and why that could be amistake.
But again, I think the pointthat you made to counter it was
(18:12):
kind of along the lines of whatI was gonna defend the choice
with, by saying that like he itwas the what the people called
him.
If he uh did like denied that,it wouldn't have been uh a good
thing for his own followers.
You know, like if you're gonnabe uh kind of handed this mantle
by these people that supportedyou, it's not really right for
(18:33):
you to be like, actually, canyou just like not call me this,
can you call me that?
Like it's it's it's wouldn'thave uh like made Rob as strong
as he was.
Like I think when they calledhim King in the North, it kind
of gave some uh uh power to hisuh like presence and what he was
trying to do, even though hewasn't trying to uh um make the
north independent um likeinitially, uh I think it's fine
(18:56):
that they called him the king inthe north because it shows uh to
like the south, to King'sLanding and like the crown that
they're they don't recognize uhlike they're not they're they
only follow uh their like lordin the north.
You know what I mean?
Like if if he's upset at you,we're upset at you too.
He's our king, not you.
You know what I mean?
Like that's it's fine that theycalled him the king in the
(19:17):
north.
What's wrong was that uh Robdidn't stick kind of to the
original plan, which is just tofocus on bringing justice.
They went all over the place.
And I think that after that,like they had some wins, but
then it was unfortunately like aseries of losses and poor
decisions that that of coursedidn't just work didn't work in
(19:37):
his favor and wasn't really goodfor him.
And that's why this episode iscalled the downfall of Rob
Stark, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
We'll get to every decision.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that was Yeah, Ithink the peak was him capturing
Jamie.
I think that was the the him atthe top of the mountain, and it
kind of went downhill fromthere.
Uh slowly, like he was at thetop very fast, and then slowly,
slowly, slowly he saw himselfsliding down.
(20:05):
So I think that the first major,I guess, decision, I can't
remember if it be it comesfirst.
I should have looked at this.
Uh the first decision he madethat I think was uh boneheaded
was sending Theon Greyjoy to theIron Islands.
So I don't know if that's firstor Catelyn releasing Jamie.
(20:26):
I think Theon leaving was first,correct?
SPEAKER_03 (20:30):
Um yeah, I uh Theon leaving was let me make sure.
Oh, they freed Jamie first.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, they did?
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Yeah, Rob captures Jamie at the Battle of
Whispering Wood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know.
Theon happens later.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
So Jamie is first.
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay.
Okay, so I stand corrected.
Jamie was released first.
Obviously, that had nothing todo with Rob.
SPEAKER_04 (20:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
That was unfortunately his mother, which
if any other person would havereleased Jamie, they would have
been executed for treason.
Can't kill his mother.
But I just thought of this.
Would Joffrey has executedCersei if she released Sansa and
(21:16):
Arya?
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Oh my god.
I don't know actually.
Like, I don't I think Cerseicould like Joffrey would attempt
to do it, but Cersei would dosomething to get out of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I I I I Joffrey would makethat decision, but Cersei
wouldn't end up dying at likethat, I think.
Like she I I yeah, she no, in away.
(21:40):
Like, but Joffrey's not Rob, youknow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
But you had to think about it.
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
I thought about it for a second, yeah, because I
was like, yeah, Joffrey wouldgive that command, but I don't
see Cersei dying.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Which is funny because the these northern lords
are so upset.
Can you imagine if he would havekilled chopped Catelyn's head
off for treason?
Like, what would they have said?
And it's one of those we wecould talk about that decision
in a Catelyn episode.
Like, what was she thinking?
Like, she doesn't trust theseLannisters for one bit, but you
think that them getting Jamieback is gonna go, oh, here you
(22:17):
go.
Here you go, your daughters.
Yeah, it's just it's such aridiculous decision.
I mean, it makes her a greatstory because then that starts
Jamie's arc.
That was one of the moments thatled to his cult downfall because
you had so much dissension inthe ranks from that.
You had the Carstarks whohappen.
(22:39):
I mean, Jamie kills two of theLord Carstarks' sons, and he
wants revenge, he wants him tobe killed.
And again, in a young wolf'smind, like, I can't kill Jamie.
He uh my sisters are gonna bedead.
Like, he he doesn't see the theaftermath, or he doesn't see the
future of like what what's gonnahappen or the consequences of
(23:01):
not having Jamie killed.
Because when you think about it,like they would have been killed
anyway, they didn't realize thatthey were gonna escape King's
Landing, you know.
But I think they should haveobviously they should have let
Karstark get his revenge, in myopinion.
In your mind, they're deadanyway.
(23:22):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
Like in Kat's mind.
SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
You just gotta let it go.
I mean that's hard, it's easy tosay, right?
But I think you because whenKarstark leaves, that's more
than 50% of his his support isgone.
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
And right right then and there, when then they're
gone, then they're desperate togo.
Oh, now instead of going south,now with our with our minimal
forces, let's go, you know,we'll we'll talk about this
later, but we'll let's go to uhCastle Rock.
You know what I mean?
Like like if he had the fullmight of his full forces from
(23:57):
the beginning, he's not doingthat.
SPEAKER_03 (23:59):
I don't want to talk about like cat and make it a cat
moment, or like I don't want totalk too much about it because
this is a Rob-focused episode,but like I can't blame her at
the same time for doing that,you know.
Like Yeah, I mean like as a mom,like trying to defend your
sister as much as you can.
But at the same time, like Ithink that I hate to say it
because it sounds so bad, but uhobviously we you made you made
(24:20):
the Joffrey point, so it makesthis point better.
But I don't think it's a badthing that like Rob had to
imprison Kat.
He had to like kind of punishher to show some uh loyalty, I
guess, to the Carstark.
You know what I mean?
Like he had to do that to hisown mother, which can be
questionable without thecontext.
He had to do that, and then butif they killed Jamie, can you
(24:41):
imagine like how how bad thatwould have been as well?
Like I don't know if I wouldhave wanted that if he just lets
Carstark do do that, honesty.
Like I killing Carstark waswrong, but I don't think it
would have helped Jamie, helpedRob to kill to have Jamie
killed.
He was he's too valuable ahostage to kill him.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
Another we're all over the place here, but uh when
it gets to the Carstark thing,um I had an issue with it
because let the man have hisrevenge.
Oh so that's it, Theon.
Him sending him to the IronIsland to treat with his father,
who he hasn't seen in what 10years, and was obviously one of
(25:23):
the biggest mistakes.
Didn't realize he made he trustsTheon.
He has been grow grown up withTheon.
Catelyn saying, no, no, no,please don't trust him.
Please, these people are aredespicable, please don't do it.
That's the one decision thatgets me crazed, is him sending
Dion to the Iron Islands.
(25:45):
Because he could have sentanybody else as an envoy.
He could have sent one of thenorthern lords with with a you
know with an entourage and belike, hey, this is Rob's terms.
Not don't don't send one person.
Actually, he sent more thanpeople in the books, but in the
show it's just Theon.
And then what do you expect?
(26:06):
Dion is not strong-willed or orsmart.
Uh because then then think whatlook at the domino effect.
He he gets shamed by his father,yeah, and then all of a sudden,
oh, I need to betray my brotherand take Winzerfeld.
So now Rob has to think about mybrothers are dead because of my
dumb decision.
(26:26):
Now I have to what do I do?
Do I have to go back north?
Go back south, and then you haveRuth Bolton coming in.
No, no, no, you can't go backnorth.
I'll send my back.
You know, it's just Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:38):
I know.
I mean, about Theon, you know,give considering what we already
talked, considering what wealready said about Rob and how
he is very loving, you know, hesaw Theon so like positively, so
much, so much so like a brother,like similar to John.
That of course I don't blame himfor uh sending Theon away
(26:58):
because he in his mind he's oneof us, he's not one of them
anymore.
You know what I mean?
Like he didn't see the the Theonas a greyjoy, he saw him as a
Stark.
Whereas Katlyn, you know, sawlike knew knows everything about
House Greyjoy.
She she she has the fullpicture.
But Rob was like, no, this is mybrother.
You know, this is uh he's he'she's as close to me as John is,
as Bran is.
(27:19):
Like, there's no difference.
So I don't blame him, but Ican't like nobody can deny that
this was a huge, huge mistakethat Rob did.
And that's like we can't wecan't blame him for it.
And he it's not uh it's notbecause he's not uh smart, I
think it's just because he's toouh caring in a way.
(27:39):
I'm like I'm painting him such apositive light, like it's too
much of a compliment, I think.
But uh he uh he is very warm andloving, he rah and that's where
this decision came from.
It's from his good his goodheart rather than uh him him uh
being like not beingintelligent, you know, like
because that it's an emotion, Ithink like he thought the better
(28:02):
of the answer.
That's why he did that, ratherthan thinking this was an unwise
decision and weighing the prosand cons.
He thought he m made thedecision with like his heart,
but not his mind, and all thefacts that he knew or like the
facts that he uh could knowabout How's Grid Ranger.
Um but then you mentionedTedissa, so let's move on to um
what comes like that next step.
(28:23):
That's a huge, huge, huge, hugemistake that Rob did.
And I don't think that anyonecan deny.
I think that once this happened,uh anyone and everyone can tell
that like Rob made a horriblemove and that's breaking the
marriage pact that he made tohouse free.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Um well, let me just uh if it's okay with you, I'm
gonna give you the book side ofthe portrayal of the phrase.
Um and it starts with you know,in the show he meets Telissa on
the field of battle, she'stending to the wounded.
Um in the book, uh Rob wasinjured in a battle called the
(29:00):
storm of or the storming of thecraig.
Uh, he was hit in the shoulder,I think, by an arrow.
And he was attended by Lady JaneWesterling, who is the daughter
of the Lord Gowen Westerling.
Um so he was uh recovering fromthat wound when he heard the
news about Bran and Rickon beingkilled.
(29:24):
Obviously, he's distraught,can't believe his two little
brothers are dead.
Then you have Lady Janecomforting him, and that moment
of sorrow leads to her losingher what they call maidenhead,
right?
Yeah, and Rob is determined topreserve her honor, and he takes
(29:46):
her for a wife without delay,like immediately.
We you have to marry you.
We had sex once.
Let's go.
I am going to get up.
I can't, my arm.
I we gotta get married becauseyour honor and my honor.
So it wasn't that he fell inlove as he did in the show with
Telissa, and the book is moreout of duty because he he didn't
(30:07):
want to have her bewhatchamacallit, um it would
have been bad for her, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So obviously, this suddenmarriage provokes an outrage
from the Freys who are with uhRob.
They have Frey soldiers withthem.
Uh Black Walder threatens tokill Jane.
Before he leaves.
(30:28):
And then Oliver Frey expresseshis he wants to stay as Rob
Squire.
Black Waller says, no, you haveto go back to the twins.
So here's the thing that wouldhave been kind of nice to see.
I don't know if he would havesaid Majestic, but in the book,
Rob shaves his beard and letshis hair grow long.
(30:48):
That would have been kind of aweird thing.
I can't see Richard Madden withthe long hair.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
Yeah, no, ew.
I didn't even pay attention tothat.
I probably blocked that out.
That's no.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
So uh after that, uh he abandons the castle he was
at, and he joins his mother inRiver Run with his new bride,
Lady Jane, and his mother.
You know, Catelyn is horrified.
How can you do this?
You're breaking the oath.
And it was always funny thatCatelyn.
I remember we talked about thisin one of the shows that we for
(31:23):
season two.
Catelyn tells Rob, you shouldn'talign yourself with House Tyrell
and married Marjorie Tyrell toget that alliance, and which was
not in the show, but anyway.
That is how he met JaneWesterling.
I don't know the real reason whythey would change the story
(31:45):
because it doesn't make reallymake a difference.
Like if it's Jane Westerling orCelissa.
The only thing is that JaneWesterling is from a house.
I don't know if they wanted to,oh, if we do Jane Westerling, we
gotta then have her father inthe show, we gotta go there.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
Like that makes really no difference, but they
probably said, oh, you knowwhat?
Like it's going to be um likejust another house, you know
what I mean?
Because then you have anotherhouse in play.
Like if Rob's going to marrysomeone from uh a house,
shouldn't that house then dosomething?
You know what I mean?
Because obviously uh Jane isn'tkilled in the in the book, yeah,
(32:21):
but she's Telissa's killed in inin the show.
So then I think then thatprobably would have opened up
like a canon of worms for fansthen who haven't read the books
to talk about Jane and herfamily.
Like, oh, was she in on it?
Where's her family?
How do they come into the story?
So then I think in order to justget rid of all that um possible
discourse, they just made itsome rando.
(32:42):
You know what I mean?
Like not listen to some rando,but like not someone from a
house, not someone that could beconnected to the dancers and
certainly.
No, it's just like to avoid anypossible connections or theories
that would have painted her in abad light or or you know, set up
traps for them, kind of, youknow what I mean, because of how
fans love to theorize.
They were like, let's just makeit someone that's I hate to use
(33:05):
this word because it's so bad,but it's like a disposable
character, you know.
She she's like she comes fromfrom nowhere.
She's not to call Valentin, butyou know what I'm saying, but
like she's a complete stranger,not someone that they know, and
they don't really need toremember her name later on.
It's just no one ever gonna saywhy did Talissa's family not
come in, you know what I'msaying?
Because we're we you know, likethey're not relevant to the
(33:28):
Westerosi world.
SPEAKER_00 (33:30):
So I was gonna say for those who want to know where
Jane is in the books, I thinkshe's in River Run.
She was captured by Jamie, if Iremember.
Yeah, you got into that partyet?
I think so, yeah.
Let the folks know where you'reat, actually, for Feast for
Crows.
SPEAKER_03 (33:47):
I'm almost done with the Feast for Crows, you guys.
I can't wait to talk about it.
I'm almost done.
Um I'm here.
I remember I I one of the thingsthat motivated me to finish it
was or the two things was I hada dream once that George would
be on our podcast and would askme why I haven't finished
reading the books yet.
So I was like, okay, next day Ipopped open the book and I
started reading it.
(34:07):
Also, so I can prove to Lewis,our our mutual friend, and
someone who's been a frequentguest on our podcast, he keeps
saying, Well, Min was nevergonna finish reading the books.
I'm on my way, I'm almost done.
So I have a question for youthough.
Um, you know, we talked abouthow it was a big mistake
marrying Telissa or Jane becauseit breaks his his marriage pact
(34:29):
to House Frei, but and you know,of course, of course that like
not doesn't paint him in a goodlight, it leads to the red
wedding, yada yada.
But um at the same time, nowthinking about because my memory
is like I have drew like mymemory is short a little bit, so
I can't remember the exactsituation completely, but do you
think that it was completely,completely, completely necessary
(34:51):
for Rob to make that marriagepack in the first place?
Because I think maybe they couldhave gotten around it.
And uh honestly, I I think wetalked about this before.
It's I wouldn't put it pastWalder Frey to betray them, even
though he had married one of hisdaughters.
If the Lannisters came withtheir big like bag of coin and
were willing to deal with WalderFrey, I could easily see him
(35:14):
betraying uh uh Rob.
Because uh there was a scene aswell where he was he, you know,
he said something about his kidor his daughter dying, something
like that.
So was it necessary?
I know that they needed to passand go like pass the twins in
order to make it south.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
I think it was, but then the fact that you needed to
make a pact was for medisrespectful in the first
place.
He's your he's your lord.
Shouldn't you just listen to himand say, okay, go through?
Like why do you think why do Ihave to give you any why do I
have to give you anything?
SPEAKER_03 (35:45):
Yeah, like it was completely unnecessary.
So I think that even though wesay the marriage and breaking
the oath was like breaking thepact was a mistake, it can be
seen that making it in the firstplace was a mistake was more
like the original mistake, youknow, because yeah, like
threaten him, you know, and he'slike who cares, you know?
(36:05):
If you have the whole northbehind you except for this one
guy, deal with him in some way,you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
Don't don't Crossing the Twins was just it's like
essentially the only route toget to River Run.
Going through an alternate routewould have cost them time and
probably a lot of lives.
Going through going straight onthrough a bridge and having to
go all the way around likemountains and and water.
(36:32):
And think about it, yeah, itmakes more sense.
He had to reach River Run beforeyou know Tywin got there.
He didn't want Tywin to getthere.
So if he would have taken thelong way, who knows if Tywin
sacks River Run.
And then he needed the phrasearmy, but still, I I would have
just said, I'm giving you this,but I'm not marrying none of
(36:53):
your daughters, you know, takeher or leave it.
I'm gonna come straight through.
Having Catelyn go and and andseek terms was probably a
mistake.
I think Rob should have gone himhimself and been like, This is
what I want.
So tell me to my face.
It's one of those things that heneeded, he didn't really have a
Sir Roderick was there,obviously, but still it wasn't
(37:14):
like a he needed somebody in theoutside.
He sees Sir Roderick kind oflike a father figure, he's been
with him forever.
He needed somebody like I I wassaying the blackfish to come
from the outside, who's aproven, you know, warrior
strategist, and he would havebeen like, Okay, this is he I
would have sent the blackfish totalk to Walder Frey.
(37:36):
Yeah, you saw how Walder wastalking to Catelyn, like he he
doesn't respect her.
No, no one else has all you knowRob seeking out alliances.
He did send Catelyn to talk withRen Lee.
And then Renly and she happenedto get there at the time where
Renly and Stannis were going offon each other.
(37:58):
But again, you have Stannisbeing hard-headed, he's not
gonna give any ground, andRenly, who's who's cosplaying a
king and has you know the fullmight of the Tyrell uh army,
which is huge, is the biggestarmy, the most uh provisions and
and money.
So he's feeling himself, hethinks he's kingly and all that.
(38:19):
Uh so I mean it's just bad luckon Rob's part that he couldn't,
and again, I think it would haveworked better Rob Gwynn himself
to talk to these people insteadof sending his mother.
Look, I'm sending my mom.
That doesn't seem in this worldof macho.
SPEAKER_03 (38:37):
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
I'm gonna send my mommy to talk with you.
If it if Rob would have gonewith his full forces, hey, I'm
just here to talk.
Yes, they declare me the king ofthe north, but low-key, I don't
care about that.
Let's just join forces.
Yeah, you can take the ironthrone, I'll be up there, I'm
I'll be chilling up there in thecold, and let's just join
(39:01):
forces.
If we all join forces, we couldget this done in Amazon Prime
one day.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Yeah, literally, literally.
Like, even if he didn't allywith Renley, I think that
Stannis would have made for areally good ally for Rob.
Just because like Stannis is wasNed's pick, so in a way he would
be following his father'swishes.
So I think that's something thatwould uh that's Stannis would
(39:27):
appreciate as well becausethat's what Ned stood behind.
Uh Stannis getting the throneover Joffrey.
And at the same time, I thinkthat though the marriage thing
probably would have set uhStannis off, I don't know how we
would accept that or how hewould deal with that, but he
could have reasoned with Rob.
I think that alliance reallycould have worked and they could
have made it happen.
(39:48):
And they could have easily, withthe forces of the north and
everything that Stannis had, youknow, by like by the Blackwater
Bay uh incidents, they couldhave easily taken the kingdom
and like reach, like likerevamped the whole thing.
All of King's Daniel would havebeen different.
They were so close anyways.
So with the Sarks, they wouldhave been undefeated.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Well, the Stannis thing is just like he he didn't
want to give an inch, nocompromise whatsoever.
If he would have just listenedto again, he's listening to
everybody's listening to thewrong people.
They have Stannis listening tothe red, you know, Melisandra,
and then you have Rob, you know,listening to all these other
people.
(40:27):
Just needed one person to belike, look, what is the ultimate
objective?
Is to get the Lannisters out ofthe throne.
Like, that's what we need tofocus on.
Who cares who's sitting on thethrone?
You know what I mean?
Let's let's work this out.
Like and well, Stannis with thisbrother, like, look, you know,
there's no love there, eventhough they're brothers.
It's like, I don't care for you.
(40:47):
But still, he could have fakedit.
Look, brother, you know, we wehaven't grown up together, but
you're my blood, and we need tofigure this out.
Um, let's just let's just oustthe Atlannisters and then we'll
see rock, paper, scissor whosits and throne, or whatever.
But no, they had to fight eachother.
But anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
When you said like Stannis doesn't move an inch,
like I think with Rob, he didn'treally have had to compromise
for anything because I don'tthink Rob would have come like
asked for the North for that'snot what Rob wanted initially.
So I think I think that if Robacted uh on that alliance
earlier on, he wouldn't have uhreally had to give up much
because he's gonna be like, I'mI want to support you and I want
(41:30):
to bring them to justice.
I want what you want.
Like I I'm I'm going behind you.
I'm not the leader of this.
I I want you to be king overthem.
Like I you know what I mean?
Like he would have been funnyjust backing Stannis.
He wouldn't have he wouldn'thave asked Stannis for anything.
So with those two forces, surethey would have faced some
resistance from Randy, but Ithink if they had that show of
(41:52):
force in front of Randy,Randley's army wasn't like sure
he had the Tyrells, but Ihonestly think that they could
have switched in an instance,seeing the Starks and all of
Stannis's men.
They could have switched.
I don't I I'm not, I'm justsaying they could have.
And uh Radley, Randy could havegotten taken out anyways by Mena
Sandra, and everyone would havemoved to Rob.
(42:13):
They got the entire kingdom,they just they would get it in a
second.
So it's not like Rob had to giveanything up.
He would literally just go toStannis and be like, I support
you, I'm behind you.
How do we give you the throne?
If he just did that, why wouldStannis object?
And that's why having havinglike a fighter, too, but he he
has no reason to object,honestly.
Like to strongly object to Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
And that's why having somebody, somebody like
the Blackfish with you from dayone would have helped so much
with negotiations because hewould have just gone with the
Tyrells.
But look, this is our plan.
We don't care two shits aboutthe throne.
We just want to get Ned back, wewant to get Sansa Naria back.
We want revenge on these people.
You want to come along?
(42:56):
It'll make it easier for you.
Uh backing the Tyrells, and thenyou know, I I don't know.
It's one of those wish you couldput that in the simulation and
see, okay, AI, put it in theroom.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:08):
I know, I know, because now I can't help but
wonder, you know, like I feel Ifeel so strongly about this now,
like probably more than I everdid, just because it's I don't
know, it's frustrating me thatthat didn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
And he could have gone to them like separately and
said, Look, I've talked to yourbrother, this is what I told
him.
I'm gonna go down to King'sLanding no matter what.
If you want to join me, join mebecause that then I would help
you have the northerners withcombined with your forces.
This is gonna be easy.
One of them would have budged.
SPEAKER_03 (43:38):
Randley would have, Randy would have.
I think he could have.
He's a bit like um uh arrogant,but I think that he was weak,
you know.
He was weak, though he he hecould I could see him resisting.
I could also see him beingconvinced, especially if someone
went up to Randley and told him,Look, your brother has no ears,
he has no sons, you are next inline as long as he doesn't have
(44:00):
a son.
And it didn't seem like Santawas was like actively focusing
on having an ear.
So that's been short-sighted.
So he could have just been like,Yeah, okay, instead of thinking,
Oh, but he could get a boy inthe future, you know what I
mean?
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
Like he was he could be convinced, so and they could
and they could have used thexenophobia of he has his form
running with him, and she's andshe's you know, and she believed
the Lord of the Light is thiswicked religion, and she's
poisoning him.
And do you really want that?
And you know what I mean?
Like, they could have used allthat of like okay, and and
(44:35):
because you think about it, uhRenley had his forces were what
maybe three times as big as uhStannis's.
Because I think they had ahundred thousand plus when you
think about it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:47):
Um they were a lot, but they were weak.
Like, I don't I wouldn'tconsider them strong.
SPEAKER_00 (44:52):
Yeah, I mean they were a hundred thousand, but I
think if you if they foughttwenty-five thousand strong
northerners, they would havelost.
SPEAKER_03 (45:00):
Yeah, yes, that's what I'm trying to say.
They're they're they're lots andquantity, but not for they're
not formidable force, they'rejust quantity over quantity.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
What did uh Catelyn call them?
The Knights of Summer orsomething like that?
SPEAKER_03 (45:11):
They're the yeah, the rain, not the rainbow guard.
That's what they're actuallycard.
The knights of summer, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Because they had seen the real war and winter and
all that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:18):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
The nights of summer.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
The what-ifs, you know, that's that's one of those
what ifs of Rob.
I mean, he he hit his plan gotderailed so much, like he was on
a train to King's Landing, andhe's like, Okay, we need to stop
here.
Okay, let's turn back.
Okay, let's get back on thetrain, derail, okay.
Let's fix the train.
Boom, another.
That was basically his life.
(45:42):
Uh, but anyway, all right, solet's go to one or he executes
um Carstart, which again, that'sprobably the final blow uh when
it comes to his forces becauseit he's depleted by I don't
know, 50%.
Now, Car Stark's the want ofrevenge for Jamie killing his
son his two sons.
Um, and it and it's buildingfrom middle of the season,
(46:04):
beginning of season two.
You already have the car starkslike chirping at Rob's
leadership in the camp, likehe's uh undermining Rob all the
way because he's like, Well,he's not a real leader.
He's looking at his mother'shere, blah blah blah.
He he keeps you get to seasonthree, right?
They capture these uh Lannisternobodies, they're basically the
(46:28):
fifth cousin of the secondcousin, like like nothing.
If Cersei and they would havebeen like, Who?
Like, who cares?
I don't care about that.
This is where Rob Stark doesn'tsee the big picture.
I think it in hindsight, heshould have just said, you know
what?
Just let this guy have hisjustice.
If this is the way he's gonnaget his justice, whatever.
(46:51):
Because in the big in the longrun, in the big picture, I need
him.
And him killing two kids, I knowthey're kids, Tommen included,
the guy who played Tommen.
SPEAKER_04 (47:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
Um, just let it be.
(47:31):
Yeah, it's frustrating becauseyou you you look at that and you
go, it's not politically savvy,and that's just him being too
young, not knowing theconsequences and w in the real
world of him um executing one ofhis bannermen, his his biggest
bannermen, his the car starkswho are who are so joined with
(47:53):
the Starks in their lineage andtheir family, you know, in the
history is you know, Stark andKarstark.
SPEAKER_03 (47:59):
What you just touched on there, that's a like
big point of Rob's uh like thethemes, or I guess like the what
of what Rob embodies in thestory, because he kind of tried
to embody Ned in a post-Nedworld.
Do you know what I mean?
And I'd could it be argued thenthat Ned's uh like beheading
showed that you can't reallysurvive in this world and that
(48:21):
Rob was I don't want to say likewrong, but like you can't win by
being a Ned.
You know what I mean?
It's it's of course notsomething that I uh advocate
for, but I'm just saying thatthat's kind of what Rob makes
you question, you know what Imean?
Like, yes, he's he's right, butlike look what happened, like
look what happened to him.
Like, and it is it can be arguedthat, like, yeah, he's a good
(48:44):
character, but like this is youwould rather like you know what
that that quote like what is it,like um the dark knight, like
would you rather die a hero orlive long enough to see yourself
become a villain?
Yeah, like it Rob kind of makesyou think of that as well,
because he still dies as a as agood guy because he's stuck by
most of his morals.
Like again, I think like the themarriage is the only exception.
(49:06):
It makes you question that,which I think is interesting.
Like, is it true that nice guy'sfinished last?
Should he have done this?
Should he have done that?
Should he have stuck to hismorals because it benefited him,
but it also didn't, because hegot the respect of everyone by
proving that he was Ned's son,but at the same time being so
Ned's son and and having that uhcar start mistake.
I don't know, I I don't have aclear answer for that.
(49:28):
I just like that Rob makes youquestion that because again, it
is it does bring up the like howhe is the stereotypical
princess, princeling type ofcharacter, but like a in a very
in a world that doesn't suitthat, you know.
It's not like he has a differentside to him, because Jamie kind
of gives off that uh impressionat face value.
(49:49):
Like if you just see the drawingof of Jamie or something, that's
what you'd think he is.
You know, that's a joke thathe's like the Prince Charming
from Shrek.
But the second you watch him,you know, that everybody in the
world knows that though Jamielooks like that, he's not
actually like that.
Whereas Rob is that, he like heis that in and out.
Yeah, so it makes you wonderlike, yeah, this isn't a fairy
tale fantasy world.
He's he's a fairy tale prince,but it doesn't work in this
(50:10):
world.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
In this fantasy world, I think uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
I just like that Rob I don't have a straight answer.
I just like that Rob makes usquestion these things.
That's that's what I have tosay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
I think in a world where there's no war or
conflict, you can be a Ned inthe North, and people are gonna
respect you.
He didn't lose Rob was strong.
It's just and I don't know if hewas weak-minded when it comes to
war battle plans or whatever.
I'm just thinking about strategyuh of trusting the honor system.
(50:44):
That that's one of those thingslike he needed to figure out
like to keep his alliancesintact, you gotta think
politically, and you have todelay your personal emotions
until the war is done.
And I think if he had done so,it it might have he it might
have been a more stable.
(51:05):
It's just so funny.
It's just like if he would havehad the the wit and mind of
Tyrion, you know, with thehonor, like he to what's the
word?
Um to to switch it on and off.
Okay, I'm gonna this is the timeto be honorable.
I'm gonna switch it off becausethis is war.
(51:25):
Him sticking with his guns andand executing Karstark because
uh he betrayed because Karstarkbetrayed uh uh Rob and and not
listening to him or defying hisorders.
Again, I think he should havejust kept he should have said,
you know what, we're good.
Is your is your revenge donehere?
(51:49):
Like uh are you satisfied?
What else do you need to to tocall your your thirst of of
justice just because you want toget this done and I need you and
we we need to move forward here.
So actually, I had a questionbecause there is a theory about
a will that Rob wrote.
SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:07):
You know that theory?
SPEAKER_03 (52:09):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (52:10):
That is said upon um Rob signs a will before his
death, legitimizing Jon Snow andnaming him the heir to the
north.
SPEAKER_03 (52:19):
Oh, what?
Where is this where where doesthis theory stem from?
SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
I don't know.
I thought it was book-based.
I uh maybe I'm just thinkingwrong.
I'm just that's a theory of fantheory.
Like I said, I haven't read thebook in a long time.
Uh I said if if if the willsurvives is currently in the
hands of the blackfish orpossibly others.
It could be used later tojustify John's claim to rule the
north or even to unite the northunder John if the realm
(52:47):
fractures again.
And if Rob was the king of theNorth, he could have just
legitimized John anyway, if hewould have joined them.
SPEAKER_03 (52:55):
Anyway, that that's one of those um theories that's
floating out there that I guesslike the reason why the reason
why is because he was under theassumption that obviously
Brandon Rickon were dead, and uhhe would assume that Sansa and
Arya, you know, like are arelike missing in action, no one
knows where they are.
(53:15):
Um they were like considereddead as well.
Because just because no one knewtheir fate, they were thought to
be like dead or in prison.
So he was like, you know what?
I wouldn't want anyone in thenorth other than Jon Snow.
So that makes sense.
Uh I Googled it briefly, and thesentences I'm seeing is from uh
Reddit.
Someone says Rob's will is adocument he made shortly before
(53:36):
the Red Wedding.
We don't actually see it, butRob calls witnesses, which is
customary when signing a will,right after suggesting
legitimizing John and making himhis heir.
The documents could be vice andsecuring John's position as king
of the earth.
So I don't think we getconfirmation that he actually
signed a will, but seems likeit.
I I I missed it, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00 (53:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (53:56):
I I uh on that book.
SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
You know, we when we talk about his downfall, we
we're saying, well, this persondid this, this like, but he did
make a few decisions like youknow, marrying Talissa slash
Jane, uh sending Theon.
Actually, he did a lot.
Uh and then in the in the in theshow, his his last, I guess,
(54:20):
boneheaded idea was to go toCasterly Rock and or to
Lannisport, um, which I mean youthink about Lannisport is
heavily guarded.
I mean, it has a lot of troopsthere, and to waste time, and
you look at the map where thetwins are, where River Run is,
and then having to go all theway west to Casterly Rock, what
(54:45):
just like it still is it's asannoying as Tyrion telling
Daenerys we need to go toCasterly Rock.
Why?
Yeah, it's on the other side ofthe country.
King's Landing is on the east.
Why are we going all the waywest?
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I I mean it's somethingthat I I didn't like really pick
up as like something Rob wasdoing for a while.
Like I I didn't fixate on itwhen you know during my other
rewatches of the show, like wayback when I all those other
times, I didn't really thinkabout it for some reason.
Like I don't know why I justdidn't like I didn't focus on
(55:28):
it, but during this rewatch,when we were just watching uh
season three for our podcast anddoing the the episode by episode
recaps, I was just like, why onearth are they talking about
this?
Because it's it makes no senseand it's so frustrating, it's
not their original plan.
This was what like one of Rob'sbiggest mistakes.
There was no reason for them todo that.
(55:49):
He it was such a waste of time,doesn't it doesn't make any
sense, there's no logic behindit.
Why?
Just I can't believe that thatwas like an actual thing that
they had, Rob, think about.
SPEAKER_00 (56:01):
Yeah, and then we get to uh the phrase going to
River Run and them brokering amarriage deal with uh Edmir,
which is like, well, that's notthe one they really wanted, but
I guess he's better thannothing, and that's why they go
to the twins to go to uh thiswedding.
Well, it's funny.
Okay, so now looking at the map,I'm wrong.
(56:23):
River Run is south of the twins,right?
So if if uh John or John Rob wasin River Run, right?
Because they had to go to thefuneral of Kat's father, forgot
his name.
Um, Lord something, something,uh Tully.
That means they had to have gonenorth, then they went all the
(56:46):
way north back to the twins forthis wedding, and then they
would have gone all the way backsouth.
Like, man, those those soldierswould have been like, Really,
bro?
Where are we going?
Like, make up your mind.
SPEAKER_03 (56:58):
We mentioned Rob trusting the wrong people with
certain tasks.
And there's actually anotherinstance of it in the show that
I talked about a lot during ourseason three recap and just in
general.
He instructs Edmure to attackthe Lannister forces, help
relieve King's Landing.
But Edmure acted too slowly, andthat allowed Lannister forces to
retreat.
And when they retreated, theymade it back in time to King's
(57:19):
Landing to help aid the Battleof Blackwater and win against
Stannis.
So basically, if Rob sentsomeone more capable than
Edmure, it's kind of an indirectbutterfly effect.
If he sent someone else and theyhandled that, they handled that
like skirmish with the mountainand didn't allow the dinosaur
forces to retreat back intoKing's Landing, then Stannis
(57:41):
would have easily taken overKing's Landing at the Battle of
Blackwater base.
So it's an indirect butterflyeffect, but it just shows that
Rob kind of doesn't have thebest intuition when thrusting
certain people with certaintasks, because you know, he sent
Theon to the Pike and he sentEdmir to do this critical task
that led to the Battle ofBlackwater going into the
(58:02):
dancer's fear rather thanStannis, and Stannis winning
would have been better for him,obviously.
So it's very unfortunate thatthis is another uh, I guess,
thing we can add to Rob'smistakes, even though it's kind
of indirect.
Um who knew that there was likethis tiny little butterfly
effect in Game of Thrones?
I don't think I ever realized itbefore.
We covered it in the show.
We covered this um this arc.
(58:24):
And of course, the Anistra'swinning the Battle of the
Blackwater leads to them stayingin power, which obviously leads
to what?
The Red Wedding and them takingout the Starks.
Rob also didn't just trustEdmure with with that task, he
didn't just trust Theon withthat task, he also really
trusted Rus Bolton.
And this was another unfortunateinstance where he trusted the
(58:47):
wrong person because Rus Boltonwas a fake ally, pretended that
he was he was like a doubleagent, pretended that he was
with the Starx, but really hewas with the Nancers this entire
time.
We talked about the Red Weddingin depth in our Red Wedding
episode that we did not too longago, covering the episode and
breaking it down.
But um, obviously, like this isthe end for Rob.
(59:09):
This is his death, this is thedeath of like hope for the
North.
It means a lot to the storyoverall, it means a lot to um
like the characters in Game ofThrones have suffered a ripple
effect in like in the universeand off-screen.
It it like re-emphasizes to us,the audience, that no one is
safe and that this is the mostbrutal on-screen world we've
ever seen.
Um and makes us wonder then,like how the Starks would ever
(59:34):
be united and if that could everhappen, because then it just
feels like we we're rooting forthem more, you know what I mean?
Like we we feel like we can'tlike there's nothing anchoring
the Starks anymore.
Like brands all the way over,north of the wall.
Arya's like lost in theriverlands and going off to
Bravos, and Sansa's like beingmoved around, you know, Cersei
with Cersei in King's Landingand then with Littlefinger, and
(59:57):
just she's uh she's goingthrough it and then she's off on
the north, and it's horrible.
So it just feels like there's nohope for the Starks, and it's a
very it's a sad ending for acharacter that stood for so
much.
And as I said, like it makes usquestion if Ned's being you you
give the right answer as well,like if being a Ned or worked in
(01:00:19):
a post Ned world, and I thinkthat uh it showed that in a time
of stability, like politicalstability you could be a Ned and
and like live a stable life, butconsidering the forces at play
and how they were, it just showsthat you can't you can't really
uh live by that clean uh uh codeof conduct if you want if you
(01:00:41):
were to stay in power, you know,like you can't I think with
Rob's death, the North loses itsking, it loses his unity and
independence, and then the seedsof um I guess vengeance are
planted in Arya and Sansabecause you know they're never
the same after that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:00):
Also for the realm his death strengthens the the
Lannisters temporarily.
But for us, I mean we we seethat Rob's story and his end um
shows us that honor without um Iguess being cunning is fatal.
Like you can't be honorable1000% of the time.
(01:01:22):
You have to figure out a way umnavigate this world that's not
is that's not the world that yougrew up in.
He does he's never had to dealwith that.
And you know he's he's notremembered as a fool but it's
just a tragic well what is itidealist who who wanted to fight
(01:01:42):
for justice in this unjust worldand and this unjust world kills
him.
SPEAKER_04 (01:01:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:48):
Yeah there was a quote that I I don't know who
it's not from the show but I sawsomebody I wish I had the the
name it said Rob Stark won everybattle but lost the war not
because he was weak but becausehe believed the world was as
noble as he was yeah that'sthat's true.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:07):
I have nothing to add to that so true I think
that's like a problem right likea lot of the characters I guess
that don't make it they theythink that their enemies think
the way that they think ratherthan um trying to get into their
enemy's mind.
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:24):
Like they they would they assume that there's another
um there there's a moment in theshow that's very famous where
Ruth Bolton right beforeplunging the the knife into
Rob's heart saying theLannisters sent their regards
and it's a small detail that'schanged from the book because in
the book he says Jamie Lannistersends his regards which is key
(01:02:49):
because Catelyn hears that partthat's Ruth saying Jamie
Lannister which is the reasonwhy when she becomes Lady
Stoneheart her mission is toseek out Jamie Lannister and
kill him.
So for her to say Lannister I Iguess in hindsight it should
have been the tip off that therewasn't going to be a leading
(01:03:11):
stoneheart in the show true trueI guess last word I have is that
you know ultimately we've talkedabout Rob this whole time and he
inherited his father's honor butnot Ned's caution would have
been much more cautious.
He fought I mean he fought withvalor he won all his battles
(01:03:33):
that he actually fought in um heinspired devotion from all the
northerners yet again he didn'thave that political cunning to
survive the the Game of Thrones.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:44):
And I think that's it for the downfall of Rob Sark.
Rob's story is one of honor andtragedy just like his father he
carried the hopes of the Northonly to be undone by the very
values that made him great.
Stan here minds us that honorand loyalty can be both a gift
and a curse in this world.
We really enjoy preparing forthis character focused episode
we've done like one I think inthe past if I'm not mistaken on
(01:04:07):
the Mad King we'd love to dosome more uh deep dives into
characters and and the historiesof West Rosen and the universe
of a song of ice and fire.
Let us know what you'd like tosee from us.
You can reach out to us onInstagram at dancing with
underscore dragons send us amessage anytime to let us know
what you want to hear from us.
Follow us to be up to date withall the news of our podcast and
(01:04:27):
all the news you have to knowabout George's world of a song
of ice and fire on screen and inthe books.
Be sure to add and download ourepisodes on your preferred
listening platforms and give usa rating and review or comment
as well if you get the chance.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Dancing with
Dragons
Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again?
It was the dragons we bowed to.
And now the dragons again.
There! Sick's the only king Imean to bend my knee to.
The king of the north.
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
I'll have peace on those terms.
They can keep their red castle.
And their iron chair, too.
The king in the north.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
Am I your brother?
Now and always.
Now and always.
My sword is yours in victory anddefeat.
From this day until my last day.
The king of the north.
SPEAKER_03 (01:33):
My name is Minua and I'm here with my co-host Tony,
and we're here today with a veryspecial character-focused
episode.
It's an episode we've teased andpromised for a while now, ever
since our Game of Thrones season3 recap, but we had to delay it
till now since we had to talkabout the first trader we got
for the new Thrones spin-offshow and I to the Seven
Kingdoms.
That was our previous episode,so be sure to check that out if
you haven't already.
So we're all up to date and knowwhat to expect when we get that
(01:55):
series in January.
But for now, we're ready to divedeep into an essential and
beloved Game of Thronescharacter and his downfall, Rob
Stark.
Tony, are you ready for thisepisode?
We've been prepping for it forquite a while now.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
We have, and I feel like I'm not fully prepped,
which is weird.
Like there's so much informationI want to get to.
And yeah, we'll we'll we'llstart from the beginning.
Yeah, and in the show, Rob is ayoung tyke with uh John and his
brothers and sisters.
And in in the book, for thosewho haven't read it, Rob is only
(02:27):
14 years old when this storybegins.
When you look at it, it's prettycrazy to think that all all the
actually all the characters aremuch younger than they are in
the show.
You know, you have even Daenerysis 14.
We actually actually don'treally see a lot of Rob in his
character in that first episode.
We see him actually in thedinner with Yeah, the the Stark
(02:49):
Dinner.
The start dinner um welcomingthe king, and we see him having
fun with Arya, throwing food toSansa's face.
So that's to me, he's still akid at heart.
He's laughing at a food fight,you know.
So then uh we get to see himagain, I think when he is saying
bye to John.
(03:09):
So we don't get to see much ofwho he is as a as a person until
he is thrust into leadershipwhen Ned leaves, and then he is
the acting lord of Winterfell.
SPEAKER_03 (03:22):
Okay, okay, hold on a bit, Tony, because I think you
just wanted to dive deep intoeverything we know about Rob and
talk about like what we see onthe show.
But there's actually like a lotof information we know from his
backstory, um, like hischildhood and how he grew up,
just like a little bit, somestuff that we can gather from
the books or like supportingmaterials that are all
considered canon, even though wedon't really see it in the show.
(03:42):
You know, as you said, we seehim at 14, we don't see any of
his like formative childhoodyears, but there's a lot of
information that like can get usto warm up to Rob a little bit
more and just add to the contextof who he is.
They it's just it's just nice toknow, you know.
Rob was born River Run, near theend of Robert's Rebellion, with
the aid of Maester Lewin.
(04:03):
He was there way back when hewas always with the Starks.
Um, he is his father's soncharacter, valuing justice and
honor above all.
He was always like acting likethe heir, you know what I mean?
Like he never uh rebelledagainst that or denied that or
anything like that.
And he was always caring for hissiblings and setting a good
example for them to follow,being the typical responsible
older brother.
(04:23):
Um, everyone looked up to him,you know.
Uh Ariel wants to be as strongas he was.
You mentioned that scene in thedinner, but Sansa and Bran
admired his bravery all thetime.
That's what that's what wasnoted.
And he was always caring towardsBran.
And he was, of course, closefriends with uh John and the
Starks were Dion.
There's no mention of hisrelationship with the youngest,
(04:44):
Rikon, but of course, we knowthat Rob would never leave
anyone out.
He's all about that Ohana life.
Um, and uh it's noted that Roband John were always very close.
That's something that we can seeclearly in the show as well,
like the results of thechildhood bond that they formed.
Um, because of course they arelike the same age.
(05:04):
They trained together ever sincethey were old enough to walk.
They played together, they theyplayed pranks on everyone, the
guards, their siblings.
They even hid in the crypts andscared Bran.
And Bran ended up crying back toRob.
Like he went to Rob for comfort,even though Rob wasn't on the
prank, just shows how close theywere and how he saw Rob as like
that comforting older brotherrather than, you know, like the
(05:24):
mean older brother that buddiedhim.
No, he he knew that Rob was likegonna be there for him, even
though he he was the one thatpranked him.
So that was always like theimage that he gave off.
He was the loving, responsibleolder brother, and I think
that's why like many of us lovehim and warm up to him.
Because if you think about it,even though he seems like a
stereotypical heir, there's noone else in George's world
(05:44):
that's like that.
You know what I mean?
Like all the other heirs or uhlike young lordlings, they're
not like Rob, you know, Tyrionisn't like that, uh Jamie isn't
like that, like no one is, likeeven the the women, Sansa's is
not the same, you know what Imean, like as the lady of the
house, like the the young lady.
She's not the same.
Cersei obviously isn't the same,uh Danny isn't the same.
(06:07):
Like he seems like a very stristereotypical prince character
in fiction, but in George'sworld, it's just him.
And I think that uh it's a veryinteresting like uh archetype
for George to use because youknow the typical Rob Stark
prince is always gonna be like,you know, the hero, the prince,
like in a way, the type ofprince that Sansa dreams about,
(06:31):
you know what I mean?
Like that's the kind of like theideal man, you know, the ideal
hero.
But obviously, like because thisis George's world, there's no
happy ending for this heroiccharacter.
I mean, he's very protagonistmaterial, uh, similar to John.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Do you think that Rob is, as you say, like not as
other lords' kids or princelybecause he had a stable parents
who actually cared for him andlooked out for him and loved
him?
And like not Lannisters didn'tlove their kids.
You think Tywin, when he says,Oh, I taught Jamie had I don't
(07:07):
believe that for one second.
Uh the Lannisters didn't reallyhave their mother.
Uh she, you know, she died inchildbirth.
So I maybe Cersei and Jamie hadtheir mom for a little bit, but
not for their whole life.
And then Daenerys obviously wasan orphan for her life.
SPEAKER_04 (07:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Um, so to have a father like Ned is like one in a
million in this world.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
That's true.
And usually in fiction, if you'dsee a guy like our character
that's as good as Ned, theywould usually already be dead.
Do you know what's I mean?
And then the the they wouldn'tbe present in the story for us
to see how they would influencethem and the rest of the world.
So um I think that yeah, in away, it does it can be
considered a result of havingthe most quote unquote normal
(07:55):
family in George's world.
But at the same time, like Idon't know why, but uh for me, I
feel like Rob turned out thatway, but Sansa kind of didn't
turn out to be the stereotypicallady, like she did.
But at the same time, like she'snot the caring older sister.
She hates Aria.
She's not to Arya what Rob is tohis younger brothers, you know
(08:17):
what I mean?
And you could it could be saidno, it's because Aria's Reberis,
but at the same time, like Ithink that Rob and Sansa are are
in a way a typical lord and atypical lady, but he's more like
I guess a st of a stereotypethan she is.
He's more uh I don't want to sayhe's he's more good, you know
what I mean?
Because I I it's not that I'mnot saying Sansa is bad, but you
know, Sansa does have that inher rob, you don't you won't see
(08:39):
him hating Bran for beingrebellious if Bran were as
rebellious as Arya, you know,and he doesn't see Arya herself
as wrong for not being ladylike.
He he he encourages that, youknow, the same way that they
would have encouraged uh Lianaand that Ned would have uh that
encouraged it.
You know what I mean?
Like uh they're quite different,so I think that he's the most uh
(09:01):
like stereotypical kind of veryI'm gonna bring in a different
franchise here, but very typicalGryffindor, you know what I
mean?
Like a very typical noble, goodguy, the same way his father is,
but more like uh when he whenyou see it's in a younger prince
type of character, you kind ofroot for him in a different way
than seeing him as like a thefatherly figure of Ned.
So uh typical hero in a way, butyeah, we know how his story
(09:25):
ends, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, the one thing when I when I re-watch the show
or reread the books is I alwayshave that wishful thinking that
the story's gonna be different,and then I go, damn you, George,
why didn't you give us Rob andJohn together?
So wish we could have seen themtogether in battle.
And to you know, man, like ofcourse we can't have that
(09:46):
because John needs to be at thewall, blah blah blah blah blah.
Whatever.
I'm just like just just forseeing uh Kit Harrington and
Richard Madden, you can feelthat second episode when they
say goodbye, like they hug eachother, and you could feel like
these they're real, like they'rebrothers, they they say they're
happy, but they're like realbrothers, and that that hug
(10:09):
always gets me because likethat's it.
They're never gonna see eachother, and I just wish that oh,
just escape.
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's what I was on that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Yeah, but anyway, my whole point of that was to say
that I wish we could have gottentheir relationship more on
screen, but you know, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (10:28):
Yeah, I I wish so as well.
And I think that is a very coreRob scene when he says goodbye
to Rob, because you do see howhe appreciated John the same way
that's kind of Arya did, and heyou get the sense that he is a
good guy that didn't really lookdown on on John or blame him.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
We can see right away that he he falls into that
leadership role.
It it doesn't take him bysurprise.
Because even before he's theLord of Winterfell, he's the
Lord of Winterfell, but evenwhen Catelyn is still in
Winterfell, she's not therebecause she's with Bran 24-7.
And she remember, she's shedoesn't want to deal with
(11:04):
anything.
And so for that whole month andwhatever, you know, Rob is
already taking care of all themeetings, he's taking care of
all the ins and outs of all thelittle things that have to go in
running this this this you knownorthern, vast northern not I
won't say kingdom, but you knowI mean like land of people he
has to he has to worry about.
(11:26):
So he was he was already kind ofgetting that in the training
before she actually left.
SPEAKER_03 (11:58):
Yeah, definitely.
It's said that like when he wasyoung, before he reached the age
of 14, obviously because that'swhen we meet him, he was as you
said, always attending themeetings.
He was prepared uh by the timethat he had to step into that
role.
He wasn't just like like facedwith that responsibility out of
nowhere.
He saw his father do uh you knowwhat he did and and embodied
(12:21):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
So I think that's one of the reasons why some
people were kind of warmed up tohim later on, which is that's
kind and that's kind of what wecan talk about next, which is
him uh coming into his own asRob Stark King in the North when
Ned is beheaded because you knowwe have I think episode four of
(12:42):
the show, season one, whenTyrion returns to Winterfell
when he's going back to King'sLanding.
You know, we have that suspicionof the Lannisters being at fault
on Bran's fault, like they havesomething to do with it.
And you can see Rob's face whenhe's talking.
He has he's so dismissive ofTyrion, you know, like he has
such an attitude, and then whenhe can see that Tyrion has did
(13:03):
something good for Bran, becausehe created that uh for for Bran
to ride a horse, yeah, like thesaddle thing, the saddle
contraption, and then say, Hey,you know, you take it to your
person, they'll make this foryou.
And then he's like, Oh well, youdid a kindness to my brother,
you can stay.
And and you know, Tyrion is sucha so waiting, he's I I know when
I'm not wanted, you know, I'lljust go to whatever I'm going
(13:24):
there.
So we had a few episodes of Robjust holding the fort, so to
speak.
SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
We had him confronting the wildlings when
they wanted to kill Bran.
Um, and then I think the episodelater is when they get the
letter from Sansa saying thatyou need to come to King's
Landing and swear fealty to theyou know King Joffrey, and
that's when he calls his firstbig move as Lord of Winterfell
(13:53):
is to call the banners.
Yeah, after that letter, I meanit's right away you get to Rob
and he is going into a battle.
You know, it's already likeright away.
There's no there's no like uhpussyfooting around, it's just
straight to let's go, you know,because then you have Tywin
saying, Oh, we have two thousandor twenty thousand Stark men
(14:15):
here, two thousand, you know,they get confused, and the
reason why is because Rob wentin full force to attack Jamie's
crew in the Whispering Woods andget Jamie or capture Jamie, uh,
which leads to a great speech byRob.
And if you go to our coverage ofthat episode, you will you'll
hear Minwa describe Rob Stark asmajestic.
(14:44):
And that was uh two years agowhen I'm back.
SPEAKER_03 (14:51):
He did look majestic.
What else do you want me to say?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
I'm I'm gonna I agree with you.
The hair is glistening, the thethe sun is being you know, his
he's on top of this rock, youknow, this amazing speech.
He just captured Jamie, he's ontop of the world.
You know, what else?
I mean, I agree with you.
Not Sam, I'm saying I agree withyou.
Okay, good.
(15:15):
Obviously, that's a big turningpoint in the whole landscape of
the war.
Uh, this was before theexecution of Ned, mind you.
So they have Rob.
I mean, they have Jamie, somaybe they're like, well, maybe
we can, you know, Tion's like,just cut cut his head off right
away.
It's just like so.
(15:36):
Like, shut up.
Why are you here?
Anyway, uh, they could have theyhad the bargaining chip, you
know.
That was their chip to try toget Ned or the girls, or you
know, Arya and Sansa.
And we'd all know what happensin that episode.
You know, we have Ned'sexecution.
Yeah, and that that's when yousee that the following episode
(15:58):
is when Richard Madden does agreat job and showing his anger
and his grief and his pain oflosing his father when he's
chopping the tree, and he'slike, I'm gonna kill them all.
And and you know, yeah, it'slike, no, we gotta get the
girls, and then we'll kill themall.
SPEAKER_04 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
So that kind of uh starts the the ball, you know,
rolling, I guess.
We can move on to one one of thethe moments I think was a
mistake and might have been uhattributed to this future
downfall is him being the clearking of the north.
(16:38):
And I know you said you had uhan imposing view.
I I I think that it was a rashdis decision.
You have all these northernlords, they're all drunk, you
know, they're like you know,well, you know, they're just
shouting stuff out, you know,like you know, okay.
The dragons of the moment, youknow, you know, only time we
(16:59):
bowed down was to the dragons,and you know, they're dead, who
the care, you know, we're gonnaonly the king of the north.
And I just think it wasn't apolitically savvy move to just
say I'm the king.
In hindsight, Rob, that's notwhat what was Rob's motive.
His motivation was to get hisfather back, and he could have
(17:19):
cared less about being the kingof the north.
I think it's hard too, becauseif he would have said, Okay,
guys, come on, calm down.
We don't want to do that, maybehe would have lost those guys.
He would have lost thosealliance.
So I I guess he was put in uhwas a rock and a hard place.
But I think that moment was keybecause if he's not king of the
(17:42):
north, if he would have justsought out alliances instead of
declaring himself I'm K, I'mking.
I I don't know.
What what do you think?
SPEAKER_03 (17:50):
Okay, so before we started recording, you said,
Yeah, I'm gonna talk about theking Herald being king of the
north and how that was amistake, and I obviously reacted
to that, as you said.
I was like, What?
Why do you call that a mistake?
And you're like, oh, I'll talkabout it and stuff.
And I understand your your whatI understand what you're trying
to say and why that could be amistake.
But again, I think the pointthat you made to counter it was
(18:12):
kind of along the lines of whatI was gonna defend the choice
with, by saying that like he itwas the what the people called
him.
If he uh did like denied that,it wouldn't have been uh a good
thing for his own followers.
You know, like if you're gonnabe uh kind of handed this mantle
by these people that supportedyou, it's not really right for
(18:33):
you to be like, actually, canyou just like not call me this,
can you call me that?
Like it's it's it's wouldn'thave uh like made Rob as strong
as he was.
Like I think when they calledhim King in the North, it kind
of gave some uh uh power to hisuh like presence and what he was
trying to do, even though hewasn't trying to uh um make the
north independent um likeinitially, uh I think it's fine
(18:56):
that they called him the king inthe north because it shows uh to
like the south, to King'sLanding and like the crown that
they're they don't recognize uhlike they're not they're they
only follow uh their like lordin the north.
You know what I mean?
Like if if he's upset at you,we're upset at you too.
He's our king, not you.
You know what I mean?
Like that's it's fine that theycalled him the king in the
(19:17):
north.
What's wrong was that uh Robdidn't stick kind of to the
original plan, which is just tofocus on bringing justice.
They went all over the place.
And I think that after that,like they had some wins, but
then it was unfortunately like aseries of losses and poor
decisions that that of coursedidn't just work didn't work in
(19:37):
his favor and wasn't really goodfor him.
And that's why this episode iscalled the downfall of Rob
Stark, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
We'll get to every decision.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that was Yeah, Ithink the peak was him capturing
Jamie.
I think that was the the him atthe top of the mountain, and it
kind of went downhill fromthere.
Uh slowly, like he was at thetop very fast, and then slowly,
slowly, slowly he saw himselfsliding down.
(20:05):
So I think that the first major,I guess, decision, I can't
remember if it be it comesfirst.
I should have looked at this.
Uh the first decision he madethat I think was uh boneheaded
was sending Theon Greyjoy to theIron Islands.
So I don't know if that's firstor Catelyn releasing Jamie.
(20:26):
I think Theon leaving was first,correct?
SPEAKER_03 (20:30):
Um yeah, I uh Theon leaving was let me make sure.
Oh, they freed Jamie first.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, they did?
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Yeah, Rob captures Jamie at the Battle of
Whispering Wood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know.
Theon happens later.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
So Jamie is first.
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay.
Okay, so I stand corrected.
Jamie was released first.
Obviously, that had nothing todo with Rob.
SPEAKER_04 (20:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
That was unfortunately his mother, which
if any other person would havereleased Jamie, they would have
been executed for treason.
Can't kill his mother.
But I just thought of this.
Would Joffrey has executedCersei if she released Sansa and
(21:16):
Arya?
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Oh my god.
I don't know actually.
Like, I don't I think Cerseicould like Joffrey would attempt
to do it, but Cersei would dosomething to get out of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I I I I Joffrey would makethat decision, but Cersei
wouldn't end up dying at likethat, I think.
Like she I I yeah, she no, in away.
(21:40):
Like, but Joffrey's not Rob, youknow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
But you had to think about it.
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
I thought about it for a second, yeah, because I
was like, yeah, Joffrey wouldgive that command, but I don't
see Cersei dying.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Which is funny because the these northern lords
are so upset.
Can you imagine if he would havekilled chopped Catelyn's head
off for treason?
Like, what would they have said?
And it's one of those we wecould talk about that decision
in a Catelyn episode.
Like, what was she thinking?
Like, she doesn't trust theseLannisters for one bit, but you
think that them getting Jamieback is gonna go, oh, here you
(22:17):
go.
Here you go, your daughters.
Yeah, it's just it's such aridiculous decision.
I mean, it makes her a greatstory because then that starts
Jamie's arc.
That was one of the moments thatled to his cult downfall because
you had so much dissension inthe ranks from that.
You had the Carstarks whohappen.
(22:39):
I mean, Jamie kills two of theLord Carstarks' sons, and he
wants revenge, he wants him tobe killed.
And again, in a young wolf'smind, like, I can't kill Jamie.
He uh my sisters are gonna bedead.
Like, he he doesn't see the theaftermath, or he doesn't see the
future of like what what's gonnahappen or the consequences of
(23:01):
not having Jamie killed.
Because when you think about it,like they would have been killed
anyway, they didn't realize thatthey were gonna escape King's
Landing, you know.
But I think they should haveobviously they should have let
Karstark get his revenge, in myopinion.
In your mind, they're deadanyway.
(23:22):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (23:23):
Like in Kat's mind.
SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
You just gotta let it go.
I mean that's hard, it's easy tosay, right?
But I think you because whenKarstark leaves, that's more
than 50% of his his support isgone.
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
And right right then and there, when then they're
gone, then they're desperate togo.
Oh, now instead of going south,now with our with our minimal
forces, let's go, you know,we'll we'll talk about this
later, but we'll let's go to uhCastle Rock.
You know what I mean?
Like like if he had the fullmight of his full forces from
(23:57):
the beginning, he's not doingthat.
SPEAKER_03 (23:59):
I don't want to talk about like cat and make it a cat
moment, or like I don't want totalk too much about it because
this is a Rob-focused episode,but like I can't blame her at
the same time for doing that,you know.
Like Yeah, I mean like as a mom,like trying to defend your
sister as much as you can.
But at the same time, like Ithink that I hate to say it
because it sounds so bad, but uhobviously we you made you made
(24:20):
the Joffrey point, so it makesthis point better.
But I don't think it's a badthing that like Rob had to
imprison Kat.
He had to like kind of punishher to show some uh loyalty, I
guess, to the Carstark.
You know what I mean?
Like he had to do that to hisown mother, which can be
questionable without thecontext.
He had to do that, and then butif they killed Jamie, can you
(24:41):
imagine like how how bad thatwould have been as well?
Like I don't know if I wouldhave wanted that if he just lets
Carstark do do that, honesty.
Like I killing Carstark waswrong, but I don't think it
would have helped Jamie, helpedRob to kill to have Jamie
killed.
He was he's too valuable ahostage to kill him.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
Another we're all over the place here, but uh when
it gets to the Carstark thing,um I had an issue with it
because let the man have hisrevenge.
Oh so that's it, Theon.
Him sending him to the IronIsland to treat with his father,
who he hasn't seen in what 10years, and was obviously one of
(25:23):
the biggest mistakes.
Didn't realize he made he trustsTheon.
He has been grow grown up withTheon.
Catelyn saying, no, no, no,please don't trust him.
Please, these people are aredespicable, please don't do it.
That's the one decision thatgets me crazed, is him sending
Dion to the Iron Islands.
(25:45):
Because he could have sentanybody else as an envoy.
He could have sent one of thenorthern lords with with a you
know with an entourage and belike, hey, this is Rob's terms.
Not don't don't send one person.
Actually, he sent more thanpeople in the books, but in the
show it's just Theon.
And then what do you expect?
(26:06):
Dion is not strong-willed or orsmart.
Uh because then then think whatlook at the domino effect.
He he gets shamed by his father,yeah, and then all of a sudden,
oh, I need to betray my brotherand take Winzerfeld.
So now Rob has to think about mybrothers are dead because of my
dumb decision.
(26:26):
Now I have to what do I do?
Do I have to go back north?
Go back south, and then you haveRuth Bolton coming in.
No, no, no, you can't go backnorth.
I'll send my back.
You know, it's just Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:38):
I know.
I mean, about Theon, you know,give considering what we already
talked, considering what wealready said about Rob and how
he is very loving, you know, hesaw Theon so like positively, so
much, so much so like a brother,like similar to John.
That of course I don't blame himfor uh sending Theon away
(26:58):
because he in his mind he's oneof us, he's not one of them
anymore.
You know what I mean?
Like he didn't see the the Theonas a greyjoy, he saw him as a
Stark.
Whereas Katlyn, you know, sawlike knew knows everything about
House Greyjoy.
She she she has the fullpicture.
But Rob was like, no, this is mybrother.
You know, this is uh he's he'she's as close to me as John is,
as Bran is.
(27:19):
Like, there's no difference.
So I don't blame him, but Ican't like nobody can deny that
this was a huge, huge mistakethat Rob did.
And that's like we can't wecan't blame him for it.
And he it's not uh it's notbecause he's not uh smart, I
think it's just because he's toouh caring in a way.
(27:39):
I'm like I'm painting him such apositive light, like it's too
much of a compliment, I think.
But uh he uh he is very warm andloving, he rah and that's where
this decision came from.
It's from his good his goodheart rather than uh him him uh
being like not beingintelligent, you know, like
because that it's an emotion, Ithink like he thought the better
(28:02):
of the answer.
That's why he did that, ratherthan thinking this was an unwise
decision and weighing the prosand cons.
He thought he m made thedecision with like his heart,
but not his mind, and all thefacts that he knew or like the
facts that he uh could knowabout How's Grid Ranger.
Um but then you mentionedTedissa, so let's move on to um
what comes like that next step.
(28:23):
That's a huge, huge, huge, hugemistake that Rob did.
And I don't think that anyonecan deny.
I think that once this happened,uh anyone and everyone can tell
that like Rob made a horriblemove and that's breaking the
marriage pact that he made tohouse free.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Um well, let me just uh if it's okay with you, I'm
gonna give you the book side ofthe portrayal of the phrase.
Um and it starts with you know,in the show he meets Telissa on
the field of battle, she'stending to the wounded.
Um in the book, uh Rob wasinjured in a battle called the
(29:00):
storm of or the storming of thecraig.
Uh, he was hit in the shoulder,I think, by an arrow.
And he was attended by Lady JaneWesterling, who is the daughter
of the Lord Gowen Westerling.
Um so he was uh recovering fromthat wound when he heard the
news about Bran and Rickon beingkilled.
(29:24):
Obviously, he's distraught,can't believe his two little
brothers are dead.
Then you have Lady Janecomforting him, and that moment
of sorrow leads to her losingher what they call maidenhead,
right?
Yeah, and Rob is determined topreserve her honor, and he takes
(29:46):
her for a wife without delay,like immediately.
We you have to marry you.
We had sex once.
Let's go.
I am going to get up.
I can't, my arm.
I we gotta get married becauseyour honor and my honor.
So it wasn't that he fell inlove as he did in the show with
Telissa, and the book is moreout of duty because he he didn't
(30:07):
want to have her bewhatchamacallit, um it would
have been bad for her, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So obviously, this suddenmarriage provokes an outrage
from the Freys who are with uhRob.
They have Frey soldiers withthem.
Uh Black Walder threatens tokill Jane.
Before he leaves.
(30:28):
And then Oliver Frey expresseshis he wants to stay as Rob
Squire.
Black Waller says, no, you haveto go back to the twins.
So here's the thing that wouldhave been kind of nice to see.
I don't know if he would havesaid Majestic, but in the book,
Rob shaves his beard and letshis hair grow long.
(30:48):
That would have been kind of aweird thing.
I can't see Richard Madden withthe long hair.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
Yeah, no, ew.
I didn't even pay attention tothat.
I probably blocked that out.
That's no.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
So uh after that, uh he abandons the castle he was
at, and he joins his mother inRiver Run with his new bride,
Lady Jane, and his mother.
You know, Catelyn is horrified.
How can you do this?
You're breaking the oath.
And it was always funny thatCatelyn.
I remember we talked about thisin one of the shows that we for
(31:23):
season two.
Catelyn tells Rob, you shouldn'talign yourself with House Tyrell
and married Marjorie Tyrell toget that alliance, and which was
not in the show, but anyway.
That is how he met JaneWesterling.
I don't know the real reason whythey would change the story
(31:45):
because it doesn't make reallymake a difference.
Like if it's Jane Westerling orCelissa.
The only thing is that JaneWesterling is from a house.
I don't know if they wanted to,oh, if we do Jane Westerling, we
gotta then have her father inthe show, we gotta go there.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
Like that makes really no difference, but they
probably said, oh, you knowwhat?
Like it's going to be um likejust another house, you know
what I mean?
Because then you have anotherhouse in play.
Like if Rob's going to marrysomeone from uh a house,
shouldn't that house then dosomething?
You know what I mean?
Because obviously uh Jane isn'tkilled in the in the book, yeah,
(32:21):
but she's Telissa's killed in inin the show.
So then I think then thatprobably would have opened up
like a canon of worms for fansthen who haven't read the books
to talk about Jane and herfamily.
Like, oh, was she in on it?
Where's her family?
How do they come into the story?
So then I think in order to justget rid of all that um possible
discourse, they just made itsome rando.
(32:42):
You know what I mean?
Like not listen to some rando,but like not someone from a
house, not someone that could beconnected to the dancers and
certainly.
No, it's just like to avoid anypossible connections or theories
that would have painted her in abad light or or you know, set up
traps for them, kind of, youknow what I mean, because of how
fans love to theorize.
They were like, let's just makeit someone that's I hate to use
(33:05):
this word because it's so bad,but it's like a disposable
character, you know.
She she's like she comes fromfrom nowhere.
She's not to call Valentin, butyou know what I'm saying, but
like she's a complete stranger,not someone that they know, and
they don't really need toremember her name later on.
It's just no one ever gonna saywhy did Talissa's family not
come in, you know what I'msaying?
Because we're we you know, likethey're not relevant to the
(33:28):
Westerosi world.
SPEAKER_00 (33:30):
So I was gonna say for those who want to know where
Jane is in the books, I thinkshe's in River Run.
She was captured by Jamie, if Iremember.
Yeah, you got into that partyet?
I think so, yeah.
Let the folks know where you'reat, actually, for Feast for
Crows.
SPEAKER_03 (33:47):
I'm almost done with the Feast for Crows, you guys.
I can't wait to talk about it.
I'm almost done.
Um I'm here.
I remember I I one of the thingsthat motivated me to finish it
was or the two things was I hada dream once that George would
be on our podcast and would askme why I haven't finished
reading the books yet.
So I was like, okay, next day Ipopped open the book and I
started reading it.
(34:07):
Also, so I can prove to Lewis,our our mutual friend, and
someone who's been a frequentguest on our podcast, he keeps
saying, Well, Min was nevergonna finish reading the books.
I'm on my way, I'm almost done.
So I have a question for youthough.
Um, you know, we talked abouthow it was a big mistake
marrying Telissa or Jane becauseit breaks his his marriage pact
(34:29):
to House Frei, but and you know,of course, of course that like
not doesn't paint him in a goodlight, it leads to the red
wedding, yada yada.
But um at the same time, nowthinking about because my memory
is like I have drew like mymemory is short a little bit, so
I can't remember the exactsituation completely, but do you
think that it was completely,completely, completely necessary
(34:51):
for Rob to make that marriagepack in the first place?
Because I think maybe they couldhave gotten around it.
And uh honestly, I I think wetalked about this before.
It's I wouldn't put it pastWalder Frey to betray them, even
though he had married one of hisdaughters.
If the Lannisters came withtheir big like bag of coin and
were willing to deal with WalderFrey, I could easily see him
(35:14):
betraying uh uh Rob.
Because uh there was a scene aswell where he was he, you know,
he said something about his kidor his daughter dying, something
like that.
So was it necessary?
I know that they needed to passand go like pass the twins in
order to make it south.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
I think it was, but then the fact that you needed to
make a pact was for medisrespectful in the first
place.
He's your he's your lord.
Shouldn't you just listen to himand say, okay, go through?
Like why do you think why do Ihave to give you any why do I
have to give you anything?
SPEAKER_03 (35:45):
Yeah, like it was completely unnecessary.
So I think that even though wesay the marriage and breaking
the oath was like breaking thepact was a mistake, it can be
seen that making it in the firstplace was a mistake was more
like the original mistake, youknow, because yeah, like
threaten him, you know, and he'slike who cares, you know?
(36:05):
If you have the whole northbehind you except for this one
guy, deal with him in some way,you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
Don't don't Crossing the Twins was just it's like
essentially the only route toget to River Run.
Going through an alternate routewould have cost them time and
probably a lot of lives.
Going through going straight onthrough a bridge and having to
go all the way around likemountains and and water.
(36:32):
And think about it, yeah, itmakes more sense.
He had to reach River Run beforeyou know Tywin got there.
He didn't want Tywin to getthere.
So if he would have taken thelong way, who knows if Tywin
sacks River Run.
And then he needed the phrasearmy, but still, I I would have
just said, I'm giving you this,but I'm not marrying none of
(36:53):
your daughters, you know, takeher or leave it.
I'm gonna come straight through.
Having Catelyn go and and andseek terms was probably a
mistake.
I think Rob should have gone himhimself and been like, This is
what I want.
So tell me to my face.
It's one of those things that heneeded, he didn't really have a
Sir Roderick was there,obviously, but still it wasn't
(37:14):
like a he needed somebody in theoutside.
He sees Sir Roderick kind oflike a father figure, he's been
with him forever.
He needed somebody like I I wassaying the blackfish to come
from the outside, who's aproven, you know, warrior
strategist, and he would havebeen like, Okay, this is he I
would have sent the blackfish totalk to Walder Frey.
(37:36):
Yeah, you saw how Walder wastalking to Catelyn, like he he
doesn't respect her.
No, no one else has all you knowRob seeking out alliances.
He did send Catelyn to talk withRen Lee.
And then Renly and she happenedto get there at the time where
Renly and Stannis were going offon each other.
(37:58):
But again, you have Stannisbeing hard-headed, he's not
gonna give any ground, andRenly, who's who's cosplaying a
king and has you know the fullmight of the Tyrell uh army,
which is huge, is the biggestarmy, the most uh provisions and
and money.
So he's feeling himself, hethinks he's kingly and all that.
(38:19):
Uh so I mean it's just bad luckon Rob's part that he couldn't,
and again, I think it would haveworked better Rob Gwynn himself
to talk to these people insteadof sending his mother.
Look, I'm sending my mom.
That doesn't seem in this worldof macho.
SPEAKER_03 (38:37):
Yeah, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
I'm gonna send my mommy to talk with you.
If it if Rob would have gonewith his full forces, hey, I'm
just here to talk.
Yes, they declare me the king ofthe north, but low-key, I don't
care about that.
Let's just join forces.
Yeah, you can take the ironthrone, I'll be up there, I'm
I'll be chilling up there in thecold, and let's just join
(39:01):
forces.
If we all join forces, we couldget this done in Amazon Prime
one day.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Yeah, literally, literally.
Like, even if he didn't allywith Renley, I think that
Stannis would have made for areally good ally for Rob.
Just because like Stannis is wasNed's pick, so in a way he would
be following his father'swishes.
So I think that's something thatwould uh that's Stannis would
(39:27):
appreciate as well becausethat's what Ned stood behind.
Uh Stannis getting the throneover Joffrey.
And at the same time, I thinkthat though the marriage thing
probably would have set uhStannis off, I don't know how we
would accept that or how hewould deal with that, but he
could have reasoned with Rob.
I think that alliance reallycould have worked and they could
have made it happen.
(39:48):
And they could have easily, withthe forces of the north and
everything that Stannis had, youknow, by like by the Blackwater
Bay uh incidents, they couldhave easily taken the kingdom
and like reach, like likerevamped the whole thing.
All of King's Daniel would havebeen different.
They were so close anyways.
So with the Sarks, they wouldhave been undefeated.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Well, the Stannis thing is just like he he didn't
want to give an inch, nocompromise whatsoever.
If he would have just listenedto again, he's listening to
everybody's listening to thewrong people.
They have Stannis listening tothe red, you know, Melisandra,
and then you have Rob, you know,listening to all these other
people.
(40:27):
Just needed one person to belike, look, what is the ultimate
objective?
Is to get the Lannisters out ofthe throne.
Like, that's what we need tofocus on.
Who cares who's sitting on thethrone?
You know what I mean?
Let's let's work this out.
Like and well, Stannis with thisbrother, like, look, you know,
there's no love there, eventhough they're brothers.
It's like, I don't care for you.
(40:47):
But still, he could have fakedit.
Look, brother, you know, we wehaven't grown up together, but
you're my blood, and we need tofigure this out.
Um, let's just let's just oustthe Atlannisters and then we'll
see rock, paper, scissor whosits and throne, or whatever.
But no, they had to fight eachother.
But anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
When you said like Stannis doesn't move an inch,
like I think with Rob, he didn'treally have had to compromise
for anything because I don'tthink Rob would have come like
asked for the North for that'snot what Rob wanted initially.
So I think I think that if Robacted uh on that alliance
earlier on, he wouldn't have uhreally had to give up much
because he's gonna be like, I'mI want to support you and I want
(41:30):
to bring them to justice.
I want what you want.
Like I I'm I'm going behind you.
I'm not the leader of this.
I I want you to be king overthem.
Like I you know what I mean?
Like he would have been funnyjust backing Stannis.
He wouldn't have he wouldn'thave asked Stannis for anything.
So with those two forces, surethey would have faced some
resistance from Randy, but Ithink if they had that show of
(41:52):
force in front of Randy,Randley's army wasn't like sure
he had the Tyrells, but Ihonestly think that they could
have switched in an instance,seeing the Starks and all of
Stannis's men.
They could have switched.
I don't I I'm not, I'm justsaying they could have.
And uh Radley, Randy could havegotten taken out anyways by Mena
Sandra, and everyone would havemoved to Rob.
(42:13):
They got the entire kingdom,they just they would get it in a
second.
So it's not like Rob had to giveanything up.
He would literally just go toStannis and be like, I support
you, I'm behind you.
How do we give you the throne?
If he just did that, why wouldStannis object?
And that's why having havinglike a fighter, too, but he he
has no reason to object,honestly.
Like to strongly object to Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
And that's why having somebody, somebody like
the Blackfish with you from dayone would have helped so much
with negotiations because hewould have just gone with the
Tyrells.
But look, this is our plan.
We don't care two shits aboutthe throne.
We just want to get Ned back, wewant to get Sansa Naria back.
We want revenge on these people.
You want to come along?
(42:56):
It'll make it easier for you.
Uh backing the Tyrells, and thenyou know, I I don't know.
It's one of those wish you couldput that in the simulation and
see, okay, AI, put it in theroom.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:08):
I know, I know, because now I can't help but
wonder, you know, like I feel Ifeel so strongly about this now,
like probably more than I everdid, just because it's I don't
know, it's frustrating me thatthat didn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
And he could have gone to them like separately and
said, Look, I've talked to yourbrother, this is what I told
him.
I'm gonna go down to King'sLanding no matter what.
If you want to join me, join mebecause that then I would help
you have the northerners withcombined with your forces.
This is gonna be easy.
One of them would have budged.
SPEAKER_03 (43:38):
Randley would have, Randy would have.
I think he could have.
He's a bit like um uh arrogant,but I think that he was weak,
you know.
He was weak, though he he hecould I could see him resisting.
I could also see him beingconvinced, especially if someone
went up to Randley and told him,Look, your brother has no ears,
he has no sons, you are next inline as long as he doesn't have
(44:00):
a son.
And it didn't seem like Santawas was like actively focusing
on having an ear.
So that's been short-sighted.
So he could have just been like,Yeah, okay, instead of thinking,
Oh, but he could get a boy inthe future, you know what I
mean?
SPEAKER_00 (44:14):
Like he was he could be convinced, so and they could
and they could have used thexenophobia of he has his form
running with him, and she's andshe's you know, and she believed
the Lord of the Light is thiswicked religion, and she's
poisoning him.
And do you really want that?
And you know what I mean?
Like, they could have used allthat of like okay, and and
(44:35):
because you think about it, uhRenley had his forces were what
maybe three times as big as uhStannis's.
Because I think they had ahundred thousand plus when you
think about it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:47):
Um they were a lot, but they were weak.
Like, I don't I wouldn'tconsider them strong.
SPEAKER_00 (44:52):
Yeah, I mean they were a hundred thousand, but I
think if you if they foughttwenty-five thousand strong
northerners, they would havelost.
SPEAKER_03 (45:00):
Yeah, yes, that's what I'm trying to say.
They're they're they're lots andquantity, but not for they're
not formidable force, they'rejust quantity over quantity.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
What did uh Catelyn call them?
The Knights of Summer orsomething like that?
SPEAKER_03 (45:11):
They're the yeah, the rain, not the rainbow guard.
That's what they're actuallycard.
The knights of summer, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:15):
Because they had seen the real war and winter and
all that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:18):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
The nights of summer.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
The what-ifs, you know, that's that's one of those
what ifs of Rob.
I mean, he he hit his plan gotderailed so much, like he was on
a train to King's Landing, andhe's like, Okay, we need to stop
here.
Okay, let's turn back.
Okay, let's get back on thetrain, derail, okay.
Let's fix the train.
Boom, another.
That was basically his life.
(45:42):
Uh, but anyway, all right, solet's go to one or he executes
um Carstart, which again, that'sprobably the final blow uh when
it comes to his forces becauseit he's depleted by I don't
know, 50%.
Now, Car Stark's the want ofrevenge for Jamie killing his
son his two sons.
Um, and it and it's buildingfrom middle of the season,
(46:04):
beginning of season two.
You already have the car starkslike chirping at Rob's
leadership in the camp, likehe's uh undermining Rob all the
way because he's like, Well,he's not a real leader.
He's looking at his mother'shere, blah blah blah.
He he keeps you get to seasonthree, right?
They capture these uh Lannisternobodies, they're basically the
(46:28):
fifth cousin of the secondcousin, like like nothing.
If Cersei and they would havebeen like, Who?
Like, who cares?
I don't care about that.
This is where Rob Stark doesn'tsee the big picture.
I think it in hindsight, heshould have just said, you know
what?
Just let this guy have hisjustice.
If this is the way he's gonnaget his justice, whatever.
(46:51):
Because in the big in the longrun, in the big picture, I need
him.
And him killing two kids, I knowthey're kids, Tommen included,
the guy who played Tommen.
SPEAKER_04 (47:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
Um, just let it be.
(47:31):
Yeah, it's frustrating becauseyou you you look at that and you
go, it's not politically savvy,and that's just him being too
young, not knowing theconsequences and w in the real
world of him um executing one ofhis bannermen, his his biggest
bannermen, his the car starkswho are who are so joined with
(47:53):
the Starks in their lineage andtheir family, you know, in the
history is you know, Stark andKarstark.
SPEAKER_03 (47:59):
What you just touched on there, that's a like
big point of Rob's uh like thethemes, or I guess like the what
of what Rob embodies in thestory, because he kind of tried
to embody Ned in a post-Nedworld.
Do you know what I mean?
And I'd could it be argued thenthat Ned's uh like beheading
showed that you can't reallysurvive in this world and that
(48:21):
Rob was I don't want to say likewrong, but like you can't win by
being a Ned.
You know what I mean?
It's it's of course notsomething that I uh advocate
for, but I'm just saying thatthat's kind of what Rob makes
you question, you know what Imean?
Like, yes, he's he's right, butlike look what happened, like
look what happened to him.
Like, and it is it can be arguedthat, like, yeah, he's a good
(48:44):
character, but like this is youwould rather like you know what
that that quote like what is it,like um the dark knight, like
would you rather die a hero orlive long enough to see yourself
become a villain?
Yeah, like it Rob kind of makesyou think of that as well,
because he still dies as a as agood guy because he's stuck by
most of his morals.
Like again, I think like the themarriage is the only exception.
(49:06):
It makes you question that,which I think is interesting.
Like, is it true that nice guy'sfinished last?
Should he have done this?
Should he have done that?
Should he have stuck to hismorals because it benefited him,
but it also didn't, because hegot the respect of everyone by
proving that he was Ned's son,but at the same time being so
Ned's son and and having that uhcar start mistake.
I don't know, I I don't have aclear answer for that.
(49:28):
I just like that Rob makes youquestion that because again, it
is it does bring up the like howhe is the stereotypical
princess, princeling type ofcharacter, but like a in a very
in a world that doesn't suitthat, you know.
It's not like he has a differentside to him, because Jamie kind
of gives off that uh impressionat face value.
(49:49):
Like if you just see the drawingof of Jamie or something, that's
what you'd think he is.
You know, that's a joke thathe's like the Prince Charming
from Shrek.
But the second you watch him,you know, that everybody in the
world knows that though Jamielooks like that, he's not
actually like that.
Whereas Rob is that, he like heis that in and out.
Yeah, so it makes you wonderlike, yeah, this isn't a fairy
tale fantasy world.
He's he's a fairy tale prince,but it doesn't work in this
(50:10):
world.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
In this fantasy world, I think uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
I just like that Rob I don't have a straight answer.
I just like that Rob makes usquestion these things.
That's that's what I have tosay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
I think in a world where there's no war or
conflict, you can be a Ned inthe North, and people are gonna
respect you.
He didn't lose Rob was strong.
It's just and I don't know if hewas weak-minded when it comes to
war battle plans or whatever.
I'm just thinking about strategyuh of trusting the honor system.
(50:44):
That that's one of those thingslike he needed to figure out
like to keep his alliancesintact, you gotta think
politically, and you have todelay your personal emotions
until the war is done.
And I think if he had done so,it it might have he it might
have been a more stable.
(51:05):
It's just so funny.
It's just like if he would havehad the the wit and mind of
Tyrion, you know, with thehonor, like he to what's the
word?
Um to to switch it on and off.
Okay, I'm gonna this is the timeto be honorable.
I'm gonna switch it off becausethis is war.
(51:25):
Him sticking with his guns andand executing Karstark because
uh he betrayed because Karstarkbetrayed uh uh Rob and and not
listening to him or defying hisorders.
Again, I think he should havejust kept he should have said,
you know what, we're good.
Is your is your revenge donehere?
(51:49):
Like uh are you satisfied?
What else do you need to to tocall your your thirst of of
justice just because you want toget this done and I need you and
we we need to move forward here.
So actually, I had a questionbecause there is a theory about
a will that Rob wrote.
SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:07):
You know that theory?
SPEAKER_03 (52:09):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (52:10):
That is said upon um Rob signs a will before his
death, legitimizing Jon Snow andnaming him the heir to the
north.
SPEAKER_03 (52:19):
Oh, what?
Where is this where where doesthis theory stem from?
SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
I don't know.
I thought it was book-based.
I uh maybe I'm just thinkingwrong.
I'm just that's a theory of fantheory.
Like I said, I haven't read thebook in a long time.
Uh I said if if if the willsurvives is currently in the
hands of the blackfish orpossibly others.
It could be used later tojustify John's claim to rule the
north or even to unite the northunder John if the realm
(52:47):
fractures again.
And if Rob was the king of theNorth, he could have just
legitimized John anyway, if hewould have joined them.
SPEAKER_03 (52:55):
Anyway, that that's one of those um theories that's
floating out there that I guesslike the reason why the reason
why is because he was under theassumption that obviously
Brandon Rickon were dead, and uhhe would assume that Sansa and
Arya, you know, like are arelike missing in action, no one
knows where they are.
(53:15):
Um they were like considereddead as well.
Because just because no one knewtheir fate, they were thought to
be like dead or in prison.
So he was like, you know what?
I wouldn't want anyone in thenorth other than Jon Snow.
So that makes sense.
Uh I Googled it briefly, and thesentences I'm seeing is from uh
Reddit.
Someone says Rob's will is adocument he made shortly before
(53:36):
the Red Wedding.
We don't actually see it, butRob calls witnesses, which is
customary when signing a will,right after suggesting
legitimizing John and making himhis heir.
The documents could be vice andsecuring John's position as king
of the earth.
So I don't think we getconfirmation that he actually
signed a will, but seems likeit.
I I I missed it, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00 (53:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (53:56):
I I uh on that book.
SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
You know, we when we talk about his downfall, we
we're saying, well, this persondid this, this like, but he did
make a few decisions like youknow, marrying Talissa slash
Jane, uh sending Theon.
Actually, he did a lot.
Uh and then in the in the in theshow, his his last, I guess,
(54:20):
boneheaded idea was to go toCasterly Rock and or to
Lannisport, um, which I mean youthink about Lannisport is
heavily guarded.
I mean, it has a lot of troopsthere, and to waste time, and
you look at the map where thetwins are, where River Run is,
and then having to go all theway west to Casterly Rock, what
(54:45):
just like it still is it's asannoying as Tyrion telling
Daenerys we need to go toCasterly Rock.
Why?
Yeah, it's on the other side ofthe country.
King's Landing is on the east.
Why are we going all the waywest?
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I I mean it's somethingthat I I didn't like really pick
up as like something Rob wasdoing for a while.
Like I I didn't fixate on itwhen you know during my other
rewatches of the show, like wayback when I all those other
times, I didn't really thinkabout it for some reason.
Like I don't know why I justdidn't like I didn't focus on
(55:28):
it, but during this rewatch,when we were just watching uh
season three for our podcast anddoing the the episode by episode
recaps, I was just like, why onearth are they talking about
this?
Because it's it makes no senseand it's so frustrating, it's
not their original plan.
This was what like one of Rob'sbiggest mistakes.
There was no reason for them todo that.
(55:49):
He it was such a waste of time,doesn't it doesn't make any
sense, there's no logic behindit.
Why?
Just I can't believe that thatwas like an actual thing that
they had, Rob, think about.
SPEAKER_00 (56:01):
Yeah, and then we get to uh the phrase going to
River Run and them brokering amarriage deal with uh Edmir,
which is like, well, that's notthe one they really wanted, but
I guess he's better thannothing, and that's why they go
to the twins to go to uh thiswedding.
Well, it's funny.
Okay, so now looking at the map,I'm wrong.
(56:23):
River Run is south of the twins,right?
So if if uh John or John Rob wasin River Run, right?
Because they had to go to thefuneral of Kat's father, forgot
his name.
Um, Lord something, something,uh Tully.
That means they had to have gonenorth, then they went all the
(56:46):
way north back to the twins forthis wedding, and then they
would have gone all the way backsouth.
Like, man, those those soldierswould have been like, Really,
bro?
Where are we going?
Like, make up your mind.
SPEAKER_03 (56:58):
We mentioned Rob trusting the wrong people with
certain tasks.
And there's actually anotherinstance of it in the show that
I talked about a lot during ourseason three recap and just in
general.
He instructs Edmure to attackthe Lannister forces, help
relieve King's Landing.
But Edmure acted too slowly, andthat allowed Lannister forces to
retreat.
And when they retreated, theymade it back in time to King's
(57:19):
Landing to help aid the Battleof Blackwater and win against
Stannis.
So basically, if Rob sentsomeone more capable than
Edmure, it's kind of an indirectbutterfly effect.
If he sent someone else and theyhandled that, they handled that
like skirmish with the mountainand didn't allow the dinosaur
forces to retreat back intoKing's Landing, then Stannis
(57:41):
would have easily taken overKing's Landing at the Battle of
Blackwater base.
So it's an indirect butterflyeffect, but it just shows that
Rob kind of doesn't have thebest intuition when thrusting
certain people with certaintasks, because you know, he sent
Theon to the Pike and he sentEdmir to do this critical task
that led to the Battle ofBlackwater going into the
(58:02):
dancer's fear rather thanStannis, and Stannis winning
would have been better for him,obviously.
So it's very unfortunate thatthis is another uh, I guess,
thing we can add to Rob'smistakes, even though it's kind
of indirect.
Um who knew that there was likethis tiny little butterfly
effect in Game of Thrones?
I don't think I ever realized itbefore.
We covered it in the show.
We covered this um this arc.
(58:24):
And of course, the Anistra'swinning the Battle of the
Blackwater leads to them stayingin power, which obviously leads
to what?
The Red Wedding and them takingout the Starks.
Rob also didn't just trustEdmure with with that task, he
didn't just trust Theon withthat task, he also really
trusted Rus Bolton.
And this was another unfortunateinstance where he trusted the
(58:47):
wrong person because Rus Boltonwas a fake ally, pretended that
he was he was like a doubleagent, pretended that he was
with the Starx, but really hewas with the Nancers this entire
time.
We talked about the Red Weddingin depth in our Red Wedding
episode that we did not too longago, covering the episode and
breaking it down.
But um, obviously, like this isthe end for Rob.
(59:09):
This is his death, this is thedeath of like hope for the
North.
It means a lot to the storyoverall, it means a lot to um
like the characters in Game ofThrones have suffered a ripple
effect in like in the universeand off-screen.
It it like re-emphasizes to us,the audience, that no one is
safe and that this is the mostbrutal on-screen world we've
ever seen.
Um and makes us wonder then,like how the Starks would ever
(59:34):
be united and if that could everhappen, because then it just
feels like we we're rooting forthem more, you know what I mean?
Like we we feel like we can'tlike there's nothing anchoring
the Starks anymore.
Like brands all the way over,north of the wall.
Arya's like lost in theriverlands and going off to
Bravos, and Sansa's like beingmoved around, you know, Cersei
with Cersei in King's Landingand then with Littlefinger, and
(59:57):
just she's uh she's goingthrough it and then she's off on
the north, and it's horrible.
So it just feels like there's nohope for the Starks, and it's a
very it's a sad ending for acharacter that stood for so
much.
And as I said, like it makes usquestion if Ned's being you you
give the right answer as well,like if being a Ned or worked in
(01:00:19):
a post Ned world, and I thinkthat uh it showed that in a time
of stability, like politicalstability you could be a Ned and
and like live a stable life, butconsidering the forces at play
and how they were, it just showsthat you can't you can't really
uh live by that clean uh uh codeof conduct if you want if you
(01:00:41):
were to stay in power, you know,like you can't I think with
Rob's death, the North loses itsking, it loses his unity and
independence, and then the seedsof um I guess vengeance are
planted in Arya and Sansabecause you know they're never
the same after that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:00):
Also for the realm his death strengthens the the
Lannisters temporarily.
But for us, I mean we we seethat Rob's story and his end um
shows us that honor without um Iguess being cunning is fatal.
Like you can't be honorable1000% of the time.
(01:01:22):
You have to figure out a way umnavigate this world that's not
is that's not the world that yougrew up in.
He does he's never had to dealwith that.
And you know he's he's notremembered as a fool but it's
just a tragic well what is itidealist who who wanted to fight
(01:01:42):
for justice in this unjust worldand and this unjust world kills
him.
SPEAKER_04 (01:01:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:48):
Yeah there was a quote that I I don't know who
it's not from the show but I sawsomebody I wish I had the the
name it said Rob Stark won everybattle but lost the war not
because he was weak but becausehe believed the world was as
noble as he was yeah that'sthat's true.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:07):
I have nothing to add to that so true I think
that's like a problem right likea lot of the characters I guess
that don't make it they theythink that their enemies think
the way that they think ratherthan um trying to get into their
enemy's mind.
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:24):
Like they they would they assume that there's another
um there there's a moment in theshow that's very famous where
Ruth Bolton right beforeplunging the the knife into
Rob's heart saying theLannisters sent their regards
and it's a small detail that'schanged from the book because in
the book he says Jamie Lannistersends his regards which is key
(01:02:49):
because Catelyn hears that partthat's Ruth saying Jamie
Lannister which is the reasonwhy when she becomes Lady
Stoneheart her mission is toseek out Jamie Lannister and
kill him.
So for her to say Lannister I Iguess in hindsight it should
have been the tip off that therewasn't going to be a leading
(01:03:11):
stoneheart in the show true trueI guess last word I have is that
you know ultimately we've talkedabout Rob this whole time and he
inherited his father's honor butnot Ned's caution would have
been much more cautious.
He fought I mean he fought withvalor he won all his battles
(01:03:33):
that he actually fought in um heinspired devotion from all the
northerners yet again he didn'thave that political cunning to
survive the the Game of Thrones.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:44):
And I think that's it for the downfall of Rob Sark.
Rob's story is one of honor andtragedy just like his father he
carried the hopes of the Northonly to be undone by the very
values that made him great.
Stan here minds us that honorand loyalty can be both a gift
and a curse in this world.
We really enjoy preparing forthis character focused episode
we've done like one I think inthe past if I'm not mistaken on
(01:04:07):
the Mad King we'd love to dosome more uh deep dives into
characters and and the historiesof West Rosen and the universe
of a song of ice and fire.
Let us know what you'd like tosee from us.
You can reach out to us onInstagram at dancing with
underscore dragons send us amessage anytime to let us know
what you want to hear from us.
Follow us to be up to date withall the news of our podcast and
(01:04:27):
all the news you have to knowabout George's world of a song
of ice and fire on screen and inthe books.
Be sure to add and download ourepisodes on your preferred
listening platforms and give usa rating and review or comment
as well if you get the chance.
Thank you so much for joining uson this episode of Dancing with
Dragons
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