December 2, 2025 • 40 mins
If you’ve ever felt that tug toward your ex...not the man, but the idea of him...we've got you. That pull is your nervous system trying to finish a story it never got closure on. And after divorce, that pull gets loud.
In this episode, we break down why trauma bonds feel like soul ties and why your body keeps reaching for someone who couldn’t give you safety. You’ll learn what’s actually happening in your brain, why familiar pain feels magnetic, and how to interrupt the urge to text him back.
We also give you a simple sentence you can use the second your spiral starts, and we help you begin separating trauma from truth—because those two feel identical when you’re hurting.
And inside Cocoon this week, we’re celebrating wins, joy, and nervous-system rehab with this month’s Magic Drop giveaway. (If you’re not in the community yet… get in there.)
If peace feels unfamiliar, if chaos feels like home, if your body keeps wanting what your mind already left—this one’s for you.
Don’t miss Thursday’s premium episode. Dawn is guiding you through a nervous-system visualization designed to soften the cord where it actually lives—in your body. It’s how you break the loop for real.
The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships Paperback
by Patrick Carnes PhD
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MyCoachDawn
Instagram: (@dawnwiggins)
Instagram: (@coachtiffini)
On the Web: https://www.mycoachdawn.com
A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of building your confidence, forgiveness and letting go.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
Ever wonder how to handle that pull?
Not to him, but to the idea ofhim.
Maybe your brain whispers, itwasn't that bad, or your chest
clenches when his name frickin'pops up.
It's not drama, it's notweakness, it's this.
Your nervous system trying tofinish a story it didn't get
closure on.
(02:57):
Trauma bonds aren't about love,they're about unfinished safety.
You don't miss him, you miss whoyou hoped you could be with him.
So let's talk today about whyyour body hangs on and how to
slowly take your power backwithout fighting yourself.
(03:22):
Hi, love.
Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary,the podcast helping divorcees go
beyond talk therapy to processyour grief, find the healing you
crave, and build back yourconfidence.
I'm your host, Don Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer, and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
(03:42):
confidence after divorce.
All right, loves, today'sepisode is jam-packed.
We are going to explain theactual reason trauma bonds feel
like soul ties and why you keeppursuing this repetition
(04:04):
compulsion.
Later, we're going to give you asentence to use that can stop
your maybe I should text himback spiral.
But we're also going to reallyexplain to you the truth about
why the idea of cord cutting orlike going no contact doesn't
get the job done and what willactually get the job done.
(04:25):
We're going to give you one ofour book recommendations that
will like spell out for youwhat's happening
neurobiologically in your bodymind and how to actually get it
so that your body feels like thecord is cut.
Because I think we do cordcutting rituals and we cut cords
conceptually, but then we stillfeel that pull and it doesn't
actually feel cut.
So screw that.
(04:45):
Let's actually cut it.
And then stay with us because bythe end, we want you to really
understand if it's trauma or ifit's truth calling you back,
right?
Because that's the ultimatepower you need to have to know
if there's which path to godown.
Do you keep engaging him becausethere's some truth behind it, or
(05:06):
is it trauma and you need awhole different toolkit to
enact?
So we will get to that at theend of the episode.
In the meantime, help me welcomeCoach Tiffany and producer Joy.
Good morning, ladies.
Hey, hey.
Good morning.
Okay, let's touch base for aminute before we dig into trauma
bonds and repetition compulsionsand all the things.
(05:26):
Let's just review the magic dropthat dropped inside of our
community last week.
Because if you're listening tothis episode on the day it
aired, you still have a few daysleft to participate in the magic
drop.
So it's this awesome giveaway wedo every month inside of Cocoon,
our free community.
(05:47):
And the magic drop is related tothe thing that we're working on
inside of the community.
And this month's magic drop is abook called Your Resonant Self,
which really helps workdifferently with your nervous
system.
A bottle of cell salts that weuse all the time with our
clients in our lives and ourfamilies that helps
biochemically repair the nervoussystem.
(06:08):
And one of our favorite bespokehomeopathic remedy blends that
we developed over here thatworks with the neurotransmitters
in your body and helps rehabyour nervous system.
So it's a total like nervoussystem magic drop.
So to be entered to win it, allyou've got to do is join our
community and then comment onthe post.
Tiffany, tell them what the postis and what we're asking them to
do this month to be entered towin.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah.
So basically we want you toshare your wins with us so that
we can share them on the pod inour community.
So those small things that arehappening throughout your week
that you notice that you know ismoving the needle on healing, we
want to hear about it and wewant to celebrate with you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And it's such an essential part of recovery,
right?
Joy, talk a little bit about ifwe're not doing joy.
You are Joy, right?
If we're not doing the behaviorof joy, if we're not doing the
behavior of optimism andgratitude, that there's a whole
leg missing in our three-leggedstool of healing.
Talk about what you notice thatway.
SPEAKER_03 (07:03):
Absolutely.
So, like it's so fun joy andsilliness is so fundamental in
our existence.
It helps you vibrate, it helpsyou raise your vibration, it
helps you seek good, right?
When you have joy, you'reseeking good.
I know for our our women in ourcommunity, that's something that
I really kind of push becauseyou can you can be in the moment
(07:28):
of your sadness and yourstruggle and forget so easily
that how important it is or howit feels to be joy.
Because when you're in adepression state and you're in a
um this heavy grief deep stuff,yeah.
Healing, right, healing heavystate, it helps you kind of
(07:49):
remember what the fight isabout, what the fight is for.
Yes.
Right?
And so when you jam out to alittle silly song, or when you
make a silly face, it itreignites the passion and the
joy that you inherently havethat you lost or has been taken
from you through throughout thecourse of your life or whatever,
(08:11):
right?
So it's just so fundamental tobe able to take joy in the
little things or the sillythings or the stupid things,
right?
Amen.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
And we know from all the research and the data that
we heal faster when we'relaughing.
We heal more deeply andcompletely when we're laughing,
when we're playing, when we'rehaving fun, right?
When we're so serious all thetime, it takes us longer to
learn a lesson.
Like whether it's literally mathor self-esteem.
(08:44):
Right?
Like kids who have fun at schoollearn better.
We learn better and faster andwe recover faster when we are
playing.
So, yeah, one of my favoriteabundance tracks to listen to
right now.
If you're on Instagram, go to atAbelheart.
And he also has music on Spotifyand Apple Music and all the
things, right?
And I just played it for thethree of us before we hopped on
(09:05):
this to record this episodebecause it's so joyful and it's
got the frequency music with allof these manifestational things,
and it's just so silly and sohappy.
And it's an instant vibe shift.
So this month's magic drop is tohelp rehab your nervous system.
But in order to enter to win,you have to submit us your
joyful, happy, winning momentsso that we can share those in
(09:27):
the community.
Because if we are not sharingour wins, we are not healing
completely.
Joyous.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
So can we I would love to just give examples of
some wins because like that whatwhat what is a win when you're
in the deep darkness andheaviness?
Like, what's a win, right?
So, you know, a woman in ourcommunity was able to go to the
city where she previously livedand didn't drive by the house.
You know?
unknown (09:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
It was huge because she was breaking that repetition
and compulsion.
She was breaking that habit oftrauma bonding.
You know, being that littlenosy, being that little, like,
what is he doing?
What is like Zerekar and that'sit, your past and your future.
Choosing her.
Yes.
Yes.
She chose her in that moment.
Something as small as seeingsomeone in the grocery store and
(10:16):
not needing to engage.
That just you can just go home.
It's just that you can chooseyou.
You can choose no drama.
You can choose no conflict, nono um victim mentality.
You just can go get in your carand go home.
And it's so beautiful, thoselittle wins, or you know, not
choosing a glass of wine whenall you want to do is just kind
(10:37):
of numb out.
When the easy thing to do isjust to kind of dissociate and
doom scroll with a glass ofwine.
When you choose when you makethose micro choices for
yourself, that is a win.
That is what we want to hearabout.
We want to hear how you arechoosing you.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Exactly.
How about the challenge you hadthe women do this week where you
wanted them to lip sync, right?
Lip sync little video.
And for so many of the women, itwas really, really hard to
record themselves lip syncing,but they did it anyway, right?
It's like this choosing self,choosing, choosing to go.
Choosing yourself.
Yeah, like any of these types ofwins, we want to hear them all.
If something happened in court,if something happened with your
(11:15):
kiddos, if you're proud ofyourself or something, if you
cleaned out a closet, if youfixed your toilet, if you like
any freaking thing, right?
If you went to the gym when itwas hard, if you did yoga when
you felt like not, if you washedthe dishes and you didn't have
the energy, like we want to hearabout it.
Anything, anything like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:35):
Um, the these are gonna fill my soul so much.
I cannot wait.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Literally, and we just can't underscore enough
that if this isn't a regularpractice, and if it is a regular
practice, why wouldn't you wantto share it with us?
If it isn't a regular practice,it has to become it.
And so this is us just buildingit into your the way you do
life, right?
Like, if you're listening to us,you know we want to send them,
send it over to us.
We're gonna be so excited, we'regonna celebrate with you.
So, like, that's it.
(12:01):
All right, back to the topic athand, which is the repetition
compulsion or trauma bond ofgoing back over and over again,
the urge that seems like likephysiological, like it's
literally drawing you forward,like the um I don't know, like
something from Star Wars, likeis like like a tractor beam
(12:25):
pulling you towards it, right?
Towards a trauma bond.
So let's talk about the reasonthat trauma bond feels like a
soul tie.
And and one of the things that Ijust want to mention at the top
of the episode is one of thebooks that I have had on my
bookshelf my entire career, andso much of the work that we do
in our communities and in my ownpersonal healing journey and in
(12:47):
in our practices is um based onthe work that I'm gonna share in
this book.
But the book is called TheBetrayal Bond.
It's written by Patrick Carnes.
It will be linked in the shownotes.
It's breaking free ofexploitative relationships.
And this book gets into theweeds, the black and white
step-by-step of how to identifywhat happened in your life that
(13:09):
you continue to revisit thepersons or people who hurt you,
who did harm, who continue totreat you some type of way.
And so it is like triggerwarning about this book.
It talks about a lot of hardthings, but it is gonna outline
everything for you step by stepby step, so that you will
literally be able to veryclearly say this is specifically
(13:34):
what I experienced that led tothis pattern happening inside of
me.
So, first things first, let'stalk about the reason trauma
bonds feel like soul ties,right?
So I there's this idea that atsome point early in life we
reached for safety as a eitheran infant or a very young child
(13:56):
and did not experience safety.
Does that make sense how I saythat, ladies?
Absolutely.
We had a need for someone toprovide us with some sense of
security, whether it was adiaper change or we were hungry
or we got frightened, or we feltalone, or any number of these
(14:17):
things, right?
We felt a pain or we felt aloneor we felt disturbed in some
way, and we called out forsecurity, and security didn't
come.
And for some of us, that's it.
The security didn't come.
For some of us, not only did thesecurity not come, but we got
injured also, right?
Like got yelled at or gotphysically injured in the
(14:38):
process.
So when there becomes thispattern, and and this can happen
in families that are goodfamilies that really mean well
and are just doing their bestand they're just overwhelmed and
overburdened, and maybe there'sissues of um there's not enough
um resources, right?
Whether it's time, money,energy, um, food, right?
But but there's a lot of love,but there's just not enough
(15:00):
resource.
Or it can happen in familieswhere they're rampant with
addiction or abuse or trauma andthose patterns just are still
alive, right?
So even in quote unquote normalfamilies, you can still have
this thing unfold, right?
But where you reached forsecurity and it didn't come, and
then that became a habit or apattern that I got used to
(15:20):
reaching for security in a placewhere it does not arrive, and
that became a brain map.
How does that land with youladies?
What comes up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
And I think everybody can relate to at one
time or another not feeling likethey were seen or understood or
whatever by their parents orpeople that were caring for
them.
Like we all have all of thosememories in us that we felt
alone or we felt neglected or,you know, issues of abandonment
or things like that, where itjust felt at the time like when
(15:52):
we asked for something we didnot receive.
And so we learned internally,you know, somewhere along the
way that that those needs werenot going to be met.
And so that kind of shaped usinto other behaviors, other
things to sort of help.
And that's where parts areformed, right?
So in IFS, a part is formed whenan adult acts in a way that um
(16:16):
is not acceptable, right?
Irresponsible behavior, likewhatever it is, and then the
adult does not takeresponsibility for it.
And then you internalize it,take responsibility, and form a
part, whether, hey, I got yelledat that one time, so now I'm
gonna be a perfectionist or I'mgonna be a people pleaser and
fly under the radar, right?
Like there's all these partsthat we take on when we feel
like the people in our lives whoare responsible for caring for
(16:37):
us are not doing that well, notable to for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we, you know, to yourpoint, we can all relate to like
having some memory where we got,where we felt like, you know, we
threw out that high five and andno no hand came, you know, left
me hanging.
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
But what I know this is like the most awkward feeling
in the world, right?
Where you go to high fivesomeone and they don't, and it's
like, ah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
We we all felt that in our bodies.
Um but what about when you'relike zero to three and you don't
remember it?
And maybe it's just because youwere the second kid or the third
kid, right?
And it's like it wasn'tnecessarily necessarily
pathological.
It's just there wasn't enough ofyour mom to go around or
whatever, you know what I mean?
And so what if you can'tremember that happening?
But like there's this tendencyto reach for things that don't
(17:28):
feel good.
It's fascinating, right?
And it's like, on the one hand,it's very, very cool because our
brains are problem solvers,right?
Like our brains want to solveproblems all the time.
And I love that about my brain,but also sometimes when we don't
train our brains, they want tosolve problems in the way
they're used to solving theproblem, not which is not
(17:49):
necessarily healthy.
It may be adaptive, right?
It may be said, like, oh, um,you know, I'm not getting my
needs met.
I'm just gonna keep doing thesame thing over and over again,
trying to get my needs met overand over and over again.
And when I do, it will feel sogood.
And that's all the brain isdoing all the time, right?
Is trying to solve a problem.
In this instance, it's reachingfor the sense of security, the
(18:12):
sense of belonging, the sense offulfillment, but it keeps doing
it in the same context where theharm or the absence or the unmet
need keeps happening over andover and over again.
And so this is where we have tostep in and train the brain,
because I often say like anuntrained brain is sort of like
a drunken three-year-old runningaround the room with a pair of
(18:33):
scissors.
It can do more harm than good.
Yeah.
But if we train the brain,right, we can teach it to do to
solve problems in new, new,healthier ways, which is what we
do using all our tools overhere, right?
IFS and somatics and homeopathy.
Yeah.
So tell tell us a story,friends.
(18:56):
Tell us a story about a timewhere you reached for the old
thing, and all of a sudden we'relike, oh wait, I can do it
different.
Like, what stands out to youabout a time that you were able
to catch yourself reaching forthe thing that was painful,
doing the repetition compulsion,doing the trauma bond thing, and
then you realized, oh, this ismy brain trying to solve this
(19:18):
problem in the old way, and Ineed to give it a new way to do
it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
I think that when you're post-divorce, the thing
that was the hardest for me toacclimate to, and it sounds
really stupid.
It sounds really stupid becausehe was gone primarily all the
time.
Yeah, anyways, yeah.
Because he was deployed.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I should have been used todoing all of the things, and I
was, but also I was used tohaving him in some capacity.
(19:44):
He was providing financialsecurity, he was providing, you
know, I didn't work, I got tostay at home and and do
everything I needed to do.
And so post-divorce, everythingfelt really fucking hard.
Like every time something wouldbreak around my condo, every
time I had to make a decision onsomething, every time it was
(20:06):
like every single day I wasfaced with all of these micro
decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yes, yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
And I'm like, I can't, and even though he wasn't
helping me make the decisionsnecessarily, because at the end
of the day, when he would call,all the decisions were made and
all the fixes had been done.
It was just he was a soundingboard of like reassurance or
validation or whatever it was.
I still post divorce was like,this is very overwhelming.
It's very overwhelming.
(20:33):
And I think for me, the thingthat kept me, I didn't, I don't
feel like I was stuck in theloop too often, right?
I would have these moments wherethings would get overwhelming,
and I'm like, maybe it wouldjust be easier.
You know, maybe I should justsuck it up.
Like maybe I should just goback.
You know, he's willing to takeme back, like all of this other
crap that we tell ourselves.
But I think that for me, Ididn't understand at all in a
(20:55):
relationship what a calm nervoussystem felt like.
And so chaos was very normal forme.
So when things were calm, Ididn't know how to deal with
that either.
That was very scary for mebecause it was almost like
waiting for the shitstorm toarrive.
And so it's like, well, maybeI'll go back, right?
Like all these things, financialsecurity, I'll have all of that
(21:15):
if I just go back and I can justdeal with the fact that this is
how it is, that our life isalways gonna be chaos, our
marriage is always gonna bechaos, and I'm never gonna find
anyone that's gonna make me feelpeaceful.
I'm never gonna get that withinmyself either.
And so that kind of kept mestuck there, like, you know, was
it really that bad?
And looking back now, yeah, itwas.
It was really that bad.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Yeah, but that moment you picked up the phone
to to commit to doing EMDRtherapy, right?
Was like uh, oh no, I'm gonnachange this pattern moment.
It was like, no, I'm gonna dothis differently.
I'm gonna call in peace to mynervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
Or you know, there were lots of moments along the
way where you reached for a newhabit or pattern that ushered in
a new solution that wasn't moreof a well, and that's what I
kept saying, and that's what Isay all the time is that every
dating relationship I hadpost-divorce, it was a different
guy in the same situation.
(22:10):
I reacted the same, I still hadthe same attachment style, I had
a ton of anxiety, I nevertrusted anybody.
Like it was just a cycle that Iwas stuck in and the things that
I just kept reaching for becauseI could not find them within
myself.
Relationships were not peacefulfor me.
They were a place of chaos andanxiety and being in survival
(22:31):
mode, needing to be chosen,needing the breadcrumbs, waiting
for the text, getting anxious ifyou didn't text right back.
I mean, I could go on and on.
Like I was your typical anxiousattacher when I was actively
dating and interested insomebody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I bounced between that andbeing avoidant, you know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Yeah.
I think for me, I relate to whatTiffany said so much.
I grew up in a very high dramahome.
I grew up with a um my motherwho loved me to the best of her
ability, but she was in constantfight or flight.
She had too many.
Um there there's so manyreasons, why?
(23:10):
And they're they're reasons,they're not excuses, they're
reasons.
But I went to what was familiar,right?
I was never really chosen in mychildhood, and so I latched on
to a man who didn't really likehe wasn't great.
He wasn't a good boyfriend, hewasn't a good like he wasn't
great, but he was familiar,right?
(23:32):
That that distance, thatavoidant attachment was
familiar, and that's why it mademe feel comfortable, the
comfortable and the familiarthing.
Right.
And so as we when we separatedand my world completely crashed,
and I had to really kind of likelearn.
(23:54):
I had to learn my nervous systembecause I didn't know what a
nervous system was.
I had to learn my attachmentstyle, I had to learn all these
things, and when you see it andyou kind of scope out of like,
oh, this is what I did tocontribute to the fall of my
marriage.
This is the things that I woulddo.
It's like that movie Ten 10 Waysto Lose a Guy with um Kate
(24:14):
Hudson, you know, like all thoselittle things that that um I
would I would do.
I didn't give him a love fern,but there was definitely
attachment things that I did.
But it's the kind of recognizingthose micro things that you do
(24:36):
and healing those, and then allof the ripples that come from
doing you know, stepping outsideof setting boundaries for
yourself, for your family, foryour friends, um, having
yourself be held accountable,like hold yourself accountable
for your actions and your andyour decisions and having to
(24:59):
retrain your body to not be whatI would what I would consider
addicted to the drama, right?
Like I would I would text himcreating drama, like I am sick,
or like I I think I have a lumpor whatever it was, like Hattie
(25:19):
has one of my children has uhneeds to go to the hospital or
whatever, like I would createand they were real to me.
It wasn't like I was I wasn't umNo, you were feeling very real
panic, yes, right, right.
It was a nervous system where Iwould need him to be present,
(25:40):
even though I hated him beingpresent.
Um that breaking that right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So while you're sitting heretalking about your addictions,
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
So yeah, like while you're sitting here talking, I'm
sitting here thinking to myself,like in childhood and growing
up, I had a lot of themes oflike control equals love.
And so it's kind of one of thosethings where I remember one of
the first times that me and myex-husband were gonna start
dating, or he came back tovisit, or something like that.
(26:11):
And I was I had been datingsomebody else at the time, and I
remember I had like a bruise onmy arm, and I don't know, I hit
something like it was stupid,right?
But he looked at me and he waslike, Look, if this guy's
touching you, I'm gonna kill himtype of a thing, right?
So it was like that protective,like I'll do anything for you
type of a thing that really drewit.
That felt like love.
Yeah, it felt like love.
Um, and it was, you know, andthen the control started and
(26:34):
that felt safe.
So for me, then I didn't knowhow to feel safe in a
relationship with somebody whowasn't controlling.
Domineering.
Yeah, like that it was that wasthe retraining for me.
And so I felt like if theyweren't checking on me, if they
weren't saying, Where are you?
you know, or who are you with,or things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
They didn't love you.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
Right.
That they were out doingsomething that they shouldn't be
because they weren't payingenough attention.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Now let's go a layer deeper and um challenge us to go
even more vulnerable.
So when it's time to actuallychoose a healthy nervous system
pattern, right?
To choose to see our own needs,to get our own needs met, to let
the love come from lots ofappropriate places, right?
Because it often isn't gonnacome from the places we've been
(27:21):
pursuing it.
It's gonna come from new anddifferent places that we don't
even see coming, right?
We don't even realize all of theinfinite places that all of our
needs can be met from.
All we know is we look out atour current reality and we're
like, ain't nobody there, butlike it's out there, right?
You're just not attuned to it.
And so let's talk about as it'stime to call in the new, how
(27:42):
hard that is.
So, for instance, when we'reenrolling a different D-word,
our 12-month program, how manywomen have trouble choosing the
thing that's actually going tousher in the full recovery, the
rehabilitation of the nervoussystem?
But let's talk about what that'slooked like on our very own
team, the three of us.
(28:03):
So, like, for instance, Joywrite, like, I moved, I I
maximally chose you, right?
Moved my entire family to livein the same town.
But how many years did it takeus to like rebuild this new
thing where that where you couldtrust that me choosing you felt
good because even though I choseyou maximally, it didn't feel
(28:23):
like that to you.
But I did.
For sure, for sure, right?
Isn't that weird?
Like the thing that we think wewant, right?
Talk a little bit about that.
Like we're in our own lives orin the lives of women who want
this thing so desperately, butthen struggle to receive it
because the good thing actuallyfeels like the threat, and the
threatening thing feels good.
The good thing feels like athreat, and the threatening
(28:46):
thing feels good.
That's what we're talking aboutinterrupting here, right?
And it is freaking hard.
SPEAKER_03 (28:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like uh Brene Brown, what's thiswhat's the scariest emotion and
this joy, right?
Like being able to trust, beingable to trust feeling good good
things because we're as asociety, as a woman, as a child,
as a parent, as a wife, as a asa friend, as a as an ex-wife,
like all the pain in thefamiliar, right?
(29:16):
It's the um that is the devilyou know, and the devil you
know, and so yes, it wasincredibly hard.
And I think I mean I would sayit took years after you move,
you moved your family to be withme.
It took me years to actuallytrust that, and it was a lot of
work, and it was a lot of likethere were times where we did
(29:39):
not like each other, right?
Like it was hard to kind ofwe're gonna we're gonna do this
hard work and we're going tochoose joy.
I think a lot of times it's achoice.
You have a fork in the roadevery day, all day, forks of you
can choose to believe the worstabout somebody, or you can
(30:02):
choose the best, but it'sretraining your brain, it's
retraining your actions, yournervous system to be able to
identify okay, I could believewhat my body and my the stories
I'm telling myself are saying,or I can believe that that's not
actually true, that my emotionsare or brain is lying to me
(30:26):
because let's be honest, ourbrains lie to us all day, every
day.
So, like having the choice toassume good intent in a someone
and choose to believe that theyare without factual data, right?
Like, I'm not saying, I'm notsaying believe that this man who
(30:48):
is abusing you really meanswell.
If if if there's a truth, that'strue.
Yeah, that's the trick.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
How do you tell the difference between how do you
retrain your nervous system totrust someone who has your best
intentions and clarify for yournervous system that the
threatening thing is a threat?
I think that's the trick that weendeavor to teach women.
And it's tricky because I thinkat the end of the day, you and I
would probably I think all threeof us would agree that any of
(31:19):
the static that has existed inour relationship as the three of
us have gone deeper and deeperand gotten more and more
intimate, and the trust betweenthe three of us has gotten
richer and richer and richer,that all that other shit before
this moment was noise, right?
Nervous system right static.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Yeah, right.
Was it actually true?
Did you actually say somethingthat was hurtful, or did am I
blocking your love from me?
Right.
And I think a lot there was awoman that that I'm working with
a woman and she is struggling tofind the noise.
So I'm just having her, youknow, just like write down in
(31:55):
your day what is the truth aboutyourself, about the person that
you're with, or about yourfriend, or about what like
what's actually true.
Um, because I think it if youcan kind of sort through with a
sieve and with words and writingit out and some somatics, you
can kind of get some pillarsthat you can hang on to in the
(32:17):
hard moments.
SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
So let's run with that, right?
Because we want our listeners tohave this sentence that they can
hang on to when they're in thespiral, when they're feeling
that urge, that deep, deep,deep, deep urge, right?
And so when they're in this,maybe I should text him back
spiral.
Riff on that, but is it true?
Can It be proven, right?
Like riff on that.
What would you have women reallyask themselves or tell
(32:39):
themselves in that moment tointerrupt the spiral?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Are you gonna get a new outcome?
That's a good one.
You know, and what if he doestext back?
Because every time mine wouldtext me back, and and I'd get
pulled into this shit storm fortwo days of texting back and
forth, then all of a sudden hewould say something, and I'm
like, ah, there it is.
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
There it is.
SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
There's who he is.
You know, that's who I left.
Um, so understanding that likepeople aren't changing
overnight.
There's a reason why you'reseparated, there's a reason why
you're divorced, there's areason why somebody stepped out
or somebody had an affair orsomebody did this.
Like there was clearly abreakdown in the marriage that
led to a lack of communication,which led to a lack of intimacy,
(33:28):
right?
We could go down the whole path,but my point is like, so go
ahead, you know, test yourselftoo.
You want to text him back, gofor it.
And I guarantee you, within 24to 48 hours, he's gonna say
something on that text threadthat's gonna make you go, oh,
that's why.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
That's why yeah, are you gonna get a new outcome?
You know what's interestingabout what you just said, Teffre
Doodle, is when I was marriedand hadn't done all this work
yet, I wanted overnight change.
That's what I wanted.
And that to me was a sign that Iwas okay.
But that's not real change,that's fake change, right?
That's like first order change,that's faking it change to quiet
the nervous system alarm in mybody that is from layers of
(34:05):
trauma, right?
So anyone who does changequickly or overnight or in a
blink, like it's not authenticreal change.
So yeah, wow.
So are you gonna get a differentoutcome?
Okay, so all of this is why likecutting the cord or going no
contact doesn't really do thetrick, right?
It's a good place to start.
We could do cord visual, likecord cutting visualizations.
(34:28):
In our Thursday premium episode,actually, we're gonna do a
nervous system guidedvisualization so that we can
soften the cord and feel adeeper anchor within self.
But that's a process, right?
That clearly we've allidentified takes time, like deep
energetic work and time andclearing the noise from the
nervous system.
And that happens layer by layer.
(34:50):
So, in the meanwhile, let's talka little bit about how to help
women spot is it trauma callingor is it truth calling?
Is it trauma calling or is ittruth calling?
Trauma or truth, trauma ortruth, trauma or truth.
And I love joy that you talkedabout earlier, like writing down
what's true, what's true, what'strue.
And looking at a person's bodyof work, right?
(35:10):
If this is a relationship that Iwant to invest more time in, and
I say this all the time, whetherit's talking to my daughter
about building friendships ortalking to women about dating,
what does this person's body ofwork say?
Okay, they they we've all gottenbaggage, right?
We've all got baggage, we've allbeen through things.
But what have we done to movethe needle or to transform or to
(35:32):
transmute or to become aclearer, cleaner, more grounded
version of ourselves?
And so if you're engaging withsomeone, what is the body of
work that they've done that hasbeen in the direction of truth
versus just like um I don'tknow, like lip service?
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
I was gonna say that let's make sure we're talking
about action body of work andnot talking body of work.
Because anybody can talk a goodgame.
But to me, I felt like thedifference when I was trying to
choose partners or evaluatepeople or even friends in my
life.
I always looked at their actionsover their words.
That was always a thing.
Like, that's great that you'retelling me that you've done 20
(36:14):
years of therapy and you feellike a new person.
But what in your life says thatabout you?
So making sure that everythingis aligned that way, you know.
And then also when you meetsomebody finally, you know, and
and you want to start datingthem, are they as committed to
their own emotional wellness andgrowth as you are?
Because healing is a lifetimeprocess.
(36:34):
We don't just do therapy for ayear and then everything is
magically okay.
So consistently look for thingsin their life that they're
continuing to do to work onthemselves, whether that's new
hobbies, meditation, yoga, youknow, going to a therapist, um,
you know, what things in theirlife.
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
And you know, you know what character trait or
what um characteristic thatspeaks to, that sort of um being
a student of life, what thatspeaks to is the capacity for
vulnerability and humility,right?
If we are able to practice thebehavior of vulnerability or
humility, we are able to keepcoming to the table of I am a
(37:12):
student of life, of thisrelationship, of this moment,
I'm a student of this moment,right?
And in in IFS, that is one ofthe eight C's is um curiosity,
right?
Or courage or compassion, right?
There are a lot of C's that getat this.
Can you be humble and a studentof this moment kind of concept?
And I find that a lot of peoplereally struggle with what
(37:35):
vulnerability means.
And I had this just come up witha patient earlier this week
because they're like, I don'tknow, I've told I've told them
everything, right?
There's someone you just starteddating, and they're like, I
don't know what you mean.
Dawn, I've been vulnerable, I'vetold them everything.
And I said, But how did it feelto tell them?
And what have you not told themthat still feels like a secret
or something that you're hidingor something that you've
(37:55):
guarded?
Because it's not how much youshare.
I've shared boatloads of thingson the internet, me, Dawn,
right?
But I've shared them very oftenafter I've climbed that
mountain, right?
And I feel a sense of competencyor confidence around it.
And I'm not usually sharing itwhile I'm in the deep insecurity
and vulnerability around it,right?
(38:17):
I I once I once it hits thepodcast, every now and then
you'll hear me announce it like,oh, this feels awkward or hard
to share.
How hard something feels toshare, that's a hallmark of
vulnerability.
And that's what you want to seein your relationships with
people.
Are they meeting you in the landof being a student of the moment
or vulnerable in the moment?
Are they willing to revealplaces about themselves that
(38:38):
leaves them unguarded?
That's how you know.
And I think too often as women,we fall for like the man sharing
some element of their story, butthat's not vulnerability.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
No, because everybody, I call them victim
stories or trauma stories.
You know, it's like you can sithere and recite, this is what
happened to me when I was achild, and this is what happened
to me in my marriage, and yadayada.
And you think that someone issharing raw shit, but they're
not.
They've told this to 50 peoplebefore you.
And really the thing that theyneed to tell you is something
that, and and sometimes I findthat the most vulnerable things
(39:14):
we can share with people don'tseem like big things.
They don't seem like it at all.
No, but it's like that momentwhere you sort of catch and
you're like, should I say this?
Because this feels scary.
You know, that's the thing.
You can rehearse a freakingproduction for anybody.
SPEAKER_03 (39:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's so trendy right now,right?
Like being vulnerable and beingcrying on camera, self-awareness
and self-yeah.
It's I feel like it's having amovement, but is it really like
at the end of the day, are theyauthentic in their in the in the
quiet moments?
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
Oh, I just had a thought.
Like, are people who filmthemselves crying on the
internet is that a version of atrauma bond?
Because I'm crying right intothe void.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Like looking for the internet points, looking for the
attachment of the internetpoints.
SPEAKER_01 (40:07):
Anyways, because to do it in intimate spaces, right,
is next level.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
That's the thing.
Are they looking at you in theface?
Like, can you tell somebodysomething while looking at them
in the face?
That's really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
Okay.
So we want you to really take alook at your own urge to reach
for the familiar pain, right?
That's the loop we're looking atinterrupting.
And if you haven't really done afull like autopsy on your own
childhood to understand wherethis urge comes from, highly
(40:43):
recommend the book, The BetrayalBond.
The link is in the show notes.
Check that out.
And when you have an urge totext him or anyone else you
catch yourself going to thefamiliar pain around, right?
Ask yourself, am I gonna get adifferent outcome?
And if not, we want you to getgrounded into a healthier
nervous system, truth-based umprocess.
And so join us on Thursday forthe Thursday episode where we're
(41:05):
gonna take you through a guidedvisualization that is going to
help retrain the nervous system.
It's something you have to keepcoming back to and back to and
back to.
And gentle reminder our Thursdaypremium episodes, there are so
many you probably don't evenknow exist.
We have subliminal um meditateguided meditations, we have 528
hertz meditations, we have somany EFT um tapping sequences,
(41:27):
we have some manifestationepisodes, we have some deep
juicy episodes where the threeof us talk about shit we would
never talk about.
That's not behind a paywall.
Like if you haven't checked outpremium, like going all the way
back, like there are so manypremium episodes that help you
do healing, not just learn abouthealing.
We can't, it's not enough tojust have shelf-esteem, right?
Where we read a book and weunderstand a concept.
(41:47):
We have to, we learn by doing.
We don't learn just by learning.
The the real unlocking happensin the taking of the action,
right?
So join us on Thursday wherewe're gonna help you get
grounded into breaking the cycleof going back to the thing that
hurts you.
We love you so much.
Peace.
Ever wonder how to handle that pull?
Not to him, but to the idea ofhim.
Maybe your brain whispers, itwasn't that bad, or your chest
clenches when his name frickin'pops up.
It's not drama, it's notweakness, it's this.
Your nervous system trying tofinish a story it didn't get
closure on.
(02:57):
Trauma bonds aren't about love,they're about unfinished safety.
You don't miss him, you miss whoyou hoped you could be with him.
So let's talk today about whyyour body hangs on and how to
slowly take your power backwithout fighting yourself.
(03:22):
Hi, love.
Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary,the podcast helping divorcees go
beyond talk therapy to processyour grief, find the healing you
crave, and build back yourconfidence.
I'm your host, Don Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer, and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
(03:42):
confidence after divorce.
All right, loves, today'sepisode is jam-packed.
We are going to explain theactual reason trauma bonds feel
like soul ties and why you keeppursuing this repetition
(04:04):
compulsion.
Later, we're going to give you asentence to use that can stop
your maybe I should text himback spiral.
But we're also going to reallyexplain to you the truth about
why the idea of cord cutting orlike going no contact doesn't
get the job done and what willactually get the job done.
(04:25):
We're going to give you one ofour book recommendations that
will like spell out for youwhat's happening
neurobiologically in your bodymind and how to actually get it
so that your body feels like thecord is cut.
Because I think we do cordcutting rituals and we cut cords
conceptually, but then we stillfeel that pull and it doesn't
actually feel cut.
So screw that.
(04:45):
Let's actually cut it.
And then stay with us because bythe end, we want you to really
understand if it's trauma or ifit's truth calling you back,
right?
Because that's the ultimatepower you need to have to know
if there's which path to godown.
Do you keep engaging him becausethere's some truth behind it, or
(05:06):
is it trauma and you need awhole different toolkit to
enact?
So we will get to that at theend of the episode.
In the meantime, help me welcomeCoach Tiffany and producer Joy.
Good morning, ladies.
Hey, hey.
Good morning.
Okay, let's touch base for aminute before we dig into trauma
bonds and repetition compulsionsand all the things.
(05:26):
Let's just review the magic dropthat dropped inside of our
community last week.
Because if you're listening tothis episode on the day it
aired, you still have a few daysleft to participate in the magic
drop.
So it's this awesome giveaway wedo every month inside of Cocoon,
our free community.
(05:47):
And the magic drop is related tothe thing that we're working on
inside of the community.
And this month's magic drop is abook called Your Resonant Self,
which really helps workdifferently with your nervous
system.
A bottle of cell salts that weuse all the time with our
clients in our lives and ourfamilies that helps
biochemically repair the nervoussystem.
(06:08):
And one of our favorite bespokehomeopathic remedy blends that
we developed over here thatworks with the neurotransmitters
in your body and helps rehabyour nervous system.
So it's a total like nervoussystem magic drop.
So to be entered to win it, allyou've got to do is join our
community and then comment onthe post.
Tiffany, tell them what the postis and what we're asking them to
do this month to be entered towin.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah.
So basically we want you toshare your wins with us so that
we can share them on the pod inour community.
So those small things that arehappening throughout your week
that you notice that you know ismoving the needle on healing, we
want to hear about it and wewant to celebrate with you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And it's such an essential part of recovery,
right?
Joy, talk a little bit about ifwe're not doing joy.
You are Joy, right?
If we're not doing the behaviorof joy, if we're not doing the
behavior of optimism andgratitude, that there's a whole
leg missing in our three-leggedstool of healing.
Talk about what you notice thatway.
SPEAKER_03 (07:03):
Absolutely.
So, like it's so fun joy andsilliness is so fundamental in
our existence.
It helps you vibrate, it helpsyou raise your vibration, it
helps you seek good, right?
When you have joy, you'reseeking good.
I know for our our women in ourcommunity, that's something that
I really kind of push becauseyou can you can be in the moment
(07:28):
of your sadness and yourstruggle and forget so easily
that how important it is or howit feels to be joy.
Because when you're in adepression state and you're in a
um this heavy grief deep stuff,yeah.
Healing, right, healing heavystate, it helps you kind of
(07:49):
remember what the fight isabout, what the fight is for.
Yes.
Right?
And so when you jam out to alittle silly song, or when you
make a silly face, it itreignites the passion and the
joy that you inherently havethat you lost or has been taken
from you through throughout thecourse of your life or whatever,
(08:11):
right?
So it's just so fundamental tobe able to take joy in the
little things or the sillythings or the stupid things,
right?
Amen.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
And we know from all the research and the data that
we heal faster when we'relaughing.
We heal more deeply andcompletely when we're laughing,
when we're playing, when we'rehaving fun, right?
When we're so serious all thetime, it takes us longer to
learn a lesson.
Like whether it's literally mathor self-esteem.
(08:44):
Right?
Like kids who have fun at schoollearn better.
We learn better and faster andwe recover faster when we are
playing.
So, yeah, one of my favoriteabundance tracks to listen to
right now.
If you're on Instagram, go to atAbelheart.
And he also has music on Spotifyand Apple Music and all the
things, right?
And I just played it for thethree of us before we hopped on
(09:05):
this to record this episodebecause it's so joyful and it's
got the frequency music with allof these manifestational things,
and it's just so silly and sohappy.
And it's an instant vibe shift.
So this month's magic drop is tohelp rehab your nervous system.
But in order to enter to win,you have to submit us your
joyful, happy, winning momentsso that we can share those in
(09:27):
the community.
Because if we are not sharingour wins, we are not healing
completely.
Joyous.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
So can we I would love to just give examples of
some wins because like that whatwhat what is a win when you're
in the deep darkness andheaviness?
Like, what's a win, right?
So, you know, a woman in ourcommunity was able to go to the
city where she previously livedand didn't drive by the house.
You know?
unknown (09:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
It was huge because she was breaking that repetition
and compulsion.
She was breaking that habit oftrauma bonding.
You know, being that littlenosy, being that little, like,
what is he doing?
What is like Zerekar and that'sit, your past and your future.
Choosing her.
Yes.
Yes.
She chose her in that moment.
Something as small as seeingsomeone in the grocery store and
(10:16):
not needing to engage.
That just you can just go home.
It's just that you can chooseyou.
You can choose no drama.
You can choose no conflict, nono um victim mentality.
You just can go get in your carand go home.
And it's so beautiful, thoselittle wins, or you know, not
choosing a glass of wine whenall you want to do is just kind
(10:37):
of numb out.
When the easy thing to do isjust to kind of dissociate and
doom scroll with a glass ofwine.
When you choose when you makethose micro choices for
yourself, that is a win.
That is what we want to hearabout.
We want to hear how you arechoosing you.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Exactly.
How about the challenge you hadthe women do this week where you
wanted them to lip sync, right?
Lip sync little video.
And for so many of the women, itwas really, really hard to
record themselves lip syncing,but they did it anyway, right?
It's like this choosing self,choosing, choosing to go.
Choosing yourself.
Yeah, like any of these types ofwins, we want to hear them all.
If something happened in court,if something happened with your
(11:15):
kiddos, if you're proud ofyourself or something, if you
cleaned out a closet, if youfixed your toilet, if you like
any freaking thing, right?
If you went to the gym when itwas hard, if you did yoga when
you felt like not, if you washedthe dishes and you didn't have
the energy, like we want to hearabout it.
Anything, anything like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:35):
Um, the these are gonna fill my soul so much.
I cannot wait.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Literally, and we just can't underscore enough
that if this isn't a regularpractice, and if it is a regular
practice, why wouldn't you wantto share it with us?
If it isn't a regular practice,it has to become it.
And so this is us just buildingit into your the way you do
life, right?
Like, if you're listening to us,you know we want to send them,
send it over to us.
We're gonna be so excited, we'regonna celebrate with you.
So, like, that's it.
(12:01):
All right, back to the topic athand, which is the repetition
compulsion or trauma bond ofgoing back over and over again,
the urge that seems like likephysiological, like it's
literally drawing you forward,like the um I don't know, like
something from Star Wars, likeis like like a tractor beam
(12:25):
pulling you towards it, right?
Towards a trauma bond.
So let's talk about the reasonthat trauma bond feels like a
soul tie.
And and one of the things that Ijust want to mention at the top
of the episode is one of thebooks that I have had on my
bookshelf my entire career, andso much of the work that we do
in our communities and in my ownpersonal healing journey and in
(12:47):
in our practices is um based onthe work that I'm gonna share in
this book.
But the book is called TheBetrayal Bond.
It's written by Patrick Carnes.
It will be linked in the shownotes.
It's breaking free ofexploitative relationships.
And this book gets into theweeds, the black and white
step-by-step of how to identifywhat happened in your life that
(13:09):
you continue to revisit thepersons or people who hurt you,
who did harm, who continue totreat you some type of way.
And so it is like triggerwarning about this book.
It talks about a lot of hardthings, but it is gonna outline
everything for you step by stepby step, so that you will
literally be able to veryclearly say this is specifically
(13:34):
what I experienced that led tothis pattern happening inside of
me.
So, first things first, let'stalk about the reason trauma
bonds feel like soul ties,right?
So I there's this idea that atsome point early in life we
reached for safety as a eitheran infant or a very young child
(13:56):
and did not experience safety.
Does that make sense how I saythat, ladies?
Absolutely.
We had a need for someone toprovide us with some sense of
security, whether it was adiaper change or we were hungry
or we got frightened, or we feltalone, or any number of these
(14:17):
things, right?
We felt a pain or we felt aloneor we felt disturbed in some
way, and we called out forsecurity, and security didn't
come.
And for some of us, that's it.
The security didn't come.
For some of us, not only did thesecurity not come, but we got
injured also, right?
Like got yelled at or gotphysically injured in the
(14:38):
process.
So when there becomes thispattern, and and this can happen
in families that are goodfamilies that really mean well
and are just doing their bestand they're just overwhelmed and
overburdened, and maybe there'sissues of um there's not enough
um resources, right?
Whether it's time, money,energy, um, food, right?
But but there's a lot of love,but there's just not enough
(15:00):
resource.
Or it can happen in familieswhere they're rampant with
addiction or abuse or trauma andthose patterns just are still
alive, right?
So even in quote unquote normalfamilies, you can still have
this thing unfold, right?
But where you reached forsecurity and it didn't come, and
then that became a habit or apattern that I got used to
(15:20):
reaching for security in a placewhere it does not arrive, and
that became a brain map.
How does that land with youladies?
What comes up for you?
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
And I think everybody can relate to at one
time or another not feeling likethey were seen or understood or
whatever by their parents orpeople that were caring for
them.
Like we all have all of thosememories in us that we felt
alone or we felt neglected or,you know, issues of abandonment
or things like that, where itjust felt at the time like when
(15:52):
we asked for something we didnot receive.
And so we learned internally,you know, somewhere along the
way that that those needs werenot going to be met.
And so that kind of shaped usinto other behaviors, other
things to sort of help.
And that's where parts areformed, right?
So in IFS, a part is formed whenan adult acts in a way that um
(16:16):
is not acceptable, right?
Irresponsible behavior, likewhatever it is, and then the
adult does not takeresponsibility for it.
And then you internalize it,take responsibility, and form a
part, whether, hey, I got yelledat that one time, so now I'm
gonna be a perfectionist or I'mgonna be a people pleaser and
fly under the radar, right?
Like there's all these partsthat we take on when we feel
like the people in our lives whoare responsible for caring for
(16:37):
us are not doing that well, notable to for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_01 (16:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we, you know, to yourpoint, we can all relate to like
having some memory where we got,where we felt like, you know, we
threw out that high five and andno no hand came, you know, left
me hanging.
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
But what I know this is like the most awkward feeling
in the world, right?
Where you go to high fivesomeone and they don't, and it's
like, ah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
We we all felt that in our bodies.
Um but what about when you'relike zero to three and you don't
remember it?
And maybe it's just because youwere the second kid or the third
kid, right?
And it's like it wasn'tnecessarily necessarily
pathological.
It's just there wasn't enough ofyour mom to go around or
whatever, you know what I mean?
And so what if you can'tremember that happening?
But like there's this tendencyto reach for things that don't
(17:28):
feel good.
It's fascinating, right?
And it's like, on the one hand,it's very, very cool because our
brains are problem solvers,right?
Like our brains want to solveproblems all the time.
And I love that about my brain,but also sometimes when we don't
train our brains, they want tosolve problems in the way
they're used to solving theproblem, not which is not
(17:49):
necessarily healthy.
It may be adaptive, right?
It may be said, like, oh, um,you know, I'm not getting my
needs met.
I'm just gonna keep doing thesame thing over and over again,
trying to get my needs met overand over and over again.
And when I do, it will feel sogood.
And that's all the brain isdoing all the time, right?
Is trying to solve a problem.
In this instance, it's reachingfor the sense of security, the
(18:12):
sense of belonging, the sense offulfillment, but it keeps doing
it in the same context where theharm or the absence or the unmet
need keeps happening over andover and over again.
And so this is where we have tostep in and train the brain,
because I often say like anuntrained brain is sort of like
a drunken three-year-old runningaround the room with a pair of
(18:33):
scissors.
It can do more harm than good.
Yeah.
But if we train the brain,right, we can teach it to do to
solve problems in new, new,healthier ways, which is what we
do using all our tools overhere, right?
IFS and somatics and homeopathy.
Yeah.
So tell tell us a story,friends.
(18:56):
Tell us a story about a timewhere you reached for the old
thing, and all of a sudden we'relike, oh wait, I can do it
different.
Like, what stands out to youabout a time that you were able
to catch yourself reaching forthe thing that was painful,
doing the repetition compulsion,doing the trauma bond thing, and
then you realized, oh, this ismy brain trying to solve this
(19:18):
problem in the old way, and Ineed to give it a new way to do
it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
I think that when you're post-divorce, the thing
that was the hardest for me toacclimate to, and it sounds
really stupid.
It sounds really stupid becausehe was gone primarily all the
time.
Yeah, anyways, yeah.
Because he was deployed.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I should have been used todoing all of the things, and I
was, but also I was used tohaving him in some capacity.
(19:44):
He was providing financialsecurity, he was providing, you
know, I didn't work, I got tostay at home and and do
everything I needed to do.
And so post-divorce, everythingfelt really fucking hard.
Like every time something wouldbreak around my condo, every
time I had to make a decision onsomething, every time it was
(20:06):
like every single day I wasfaced with all of these micro
decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yes, yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
And I'm like, I can't, and even though he wasn't
helping me make the decisionsnecessarily, because at the end
of the day, when he would call,all the decisions were made and
all the fixes had been done.
It was just he was a soundingboard of like reassurance or
validation or whatever it was.
I still post divorce was like,this is very overwhelming.
It's very overwhelming.
(20:33):
And I think for me, the thingthat kept me, I didn't, I don't
feel like I was stuck in theloop too often, right?
I would have these moments wherethings would get overwhelming,
and I'm like, maybe it wouldjust be easier.
You know, maybe I should justsuck it up.
Like maybe I should just goback.
You know, he's willing to takeme back, like all of this other
crap that we tell ourselves.
But I think that for me, Ididn't understand at all in a
(20:55):
relationship what a calm nervoussystem felt like.
And so chaos was very normal forme.
So when things were calm, Ididn't know how to deal with
that either.
That was very scary for mebecause it was almost like
waiting for the shitstorm toarrive.
And so it's like, well, maybeI'll go back, right?
Like all these things, financialsecurity, I'll have all of that
(21:15):
if I just go back and I can justdeal with the fact that this is
how it is, that our life isalways gonna be chaos, our
marriage is always gonna bechaos, and I'm never gonna find
anyone that's gonna make me feelpeaceful.
I'm never gonna get that withinmyself either.
And so that kind of kept mestuck there, like, you know, was
it really that bad?
And looking back now, yeah, itwas.
It was really that bad.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Yeah, but that moment you picked up the phone
to to commit to doing EMDRtherapy, right?
Was like uh, oh no, I'm gonnachange this pattern moment.
It was like, no, I'm gonna dothis differently.
I'm gonna call in peace to mynervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
Or you know, there were lots of moments along the
way where you reached for a newhabit or pattern that ushered in
a new solution that wasn't moreof a well, and that's what I
kept saying, and that's what Isay all the time is that every
dating relationship I hadpost-divorce, it was a different
guy in the same situation.
(22:10):
I reacted the same, I still hadthe same attachment style, I had
a ton of anxiety, I nevertrusted anybody.
Like it was just a cycle that Iwas stuck in and the things that
I just kept reaching for becauseI could not find them within
myself.
Relationships were not peacefulfor me.
They were a place of chaos andanxiety and being in survival
(22:31):
mode, needing to be chosen,needing the breadcrumbs, waiting
for the text, getting anxious ifyou didn't text right back.
I mean, I could go on and on.
Like I was your typical anxiousattacher when I was actively
dating and interested insomebody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I bounced between that andbeing avoidant, you know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Yeah.
I think for me, I relate to whatTiffany said so much.
I grew up in a very high dramahome.
I grew up with a um my motherwho loved me to the best of her
ability, but she was in constantfight or flight.
She had too many.
Um there there's so manyreasons, why?
(23:10):
And they're they're reasons,they're not excuses, they're
reasons.
But I went to what was familiar,right?
I was never really chosen in mychildhood, and so I latched on
to a man who didn't really likehe wasn't great.
He wasn't a good boyfriend, hewasn't a good like he wasn't
great, but he was familiar,right?
(23:32):
That that distance, thatavoidant attachment was
familiar, and that's why it mademe feel comfortable, the
comfortable and the familiarthing.
Right.
And so as we when we separatedand my world completely crashed,
and I had to really kind of likelearn.
(23:54):
I had to learn my nervous systembecause I didn't know what a
nervous system was.
I had to learn my attachmentstyle, I had to learn all these
things, and when you see it andyou kind of scope out of like,
oh, this is what I did tocontribute to the fall of my
marriage.
This is the things that I woulddo.
It's like that movie Ten 10 Waysto Lose a Guy with um Kate
(24:14):
Hudson, you know, like all thoselittle things that that um I
would I would do.
I didn't give him a love fern,but there was definitely
attachment things that I did.
But it's the kind of recognizingthose micro things that you do
(24:36):
and healing those, and then allof the ripples that come from
doing you know, stepping outsideof setting boundaries for
yourself, for your family, foryour friends, um, having
yourself be held accountable,like hold yourself accountable
for your actions and your andyour decisions and having to
(24:59):
retrain your body to not be whatI would what I would consider
addicted to the drama, right?
Like I would I would text himcreating drama, like I am sick,
or like I I think I have a lumpor whatever it was, like Hattie
(25:19):
has one of my children has uhneeds to go to the hospital or
whatever, like I would createand they were real to me.
It wasn't like I was I wasn't umNo, you were feeling very real
panic, yes, right, right.
It was a nervous system where Iwould need him to be present,
(25:40):
even though I hated him beingpresent.
Um that breaking that right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So while you're sitting heretalking about your addictions,
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
So yeah, like while you're sitting here talking, I'm
sitting here thinking to myself,like in childhood and growing
up, I had a lot of themes oflike control equals love.
And so it's kind of one of thosethings where I remember one of
the first times that me and myex-husband were gonna start
dating, or he came back tovisit, or something like that.
(26:11):
And I was I had been datingsomebody else at the time, and I
remember I had like a bruise onmy arm, and I don't know, I hit
something like it was stupid,right?
But he looked at me and he waslike, Look, if this guy's
touching you, I'm gonna kill himtype of a thing, right?
So it was like that protective,like I'll do anything for you
type of a thing that really drewit.
That felt like love.
Yeah, it felt like love.
Um, and it was, you know, andthen the control started and
(26:34):
that felt safe.
So for me, then I didn't knowhow to feel safe in a
relationship with somebody whowasn't controlling.
Domineering.
Yeah, like that it was that wasthe retraining for me.
And so I felt like if theyweren't checking on me, if they
weren't saying, Where are you?
you know, or who are you with,or things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
They didn't love you.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
Right.
That they were out doingsomething that they shouldn't be
because they weren't payingenough attention.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Now let's go a layer deeper and um challenge us to go
even more vulnerable.
So when it's time to actuallychoose a healthy nervous system
pattern, right?
To choose to see our own needs,to get our own needs met, to let
the love come from lots ofappropriate places, right?
Because it often isn't gonnacome from the places we've been
(27:21):
pursuing it.
It's gonna come from new anddifferent places that we don't
even see coming, right?
We don't even realize all of theinfinite places that all of our
needs can be met from.
All we know is we look out atour current reality and we're
like, ain't nobody there, butlike it's out there, right?
You're just not attuned to it.
And so let's talk about as it'stime to call in the new, how
(27:42):
hard that is.
So, for instance, when we'reenrolling a different D-word,
our 12-month program, how manywomen have trouble choosing the
thing that's actually going tousher in the full recovery, the
rehabilitation of the nervoussystem?
But let's talk about what that'slooked like on our very own
team, the three of us.
(28:03):
So, like, for instance, Joywrite, like, I moved, I I
maximally chose you, right?
Moved my entire family to livein the same town.
But how many years did it takeus to like rebuild this new
thing where that where you couldtrust that me choosing you felt
good because even though I choseyou maximally, it didn't feel
(28:23):
like that to you.
But I did.
For sure, for sure, right?
Isn't that weird?
Like the thing that we think wewant, right?
Talk a little bit about that.
Like we're in our own lives orin the lives of women who want
this thing so desperately, butthen struggle to receive it
because the good thing actuallyfeels like the threat, and the
threatening thing feels good.
The good thing feels like athreat, and the threatening
(28:46):
thing feels good.
That's what we're talking aboutinterrupting here, right?
And it is freaking hard.
SPEAKER_03 (28:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like uh Brene Brown, what's thiswhat's the scariest emotion and
this joy, right?
Like being able to trust, beingable to trust feeling good good
things because we're as asociety, as a woman, as a child,
as a parent, as a wife, as a asa friend, as a as an ex-wife,
like all the pain in thefamiliar, right?
(29:16):
It's the um that is the devilyou know, and the devil you
know, and so yes, it wasincredibly hard.
And I think I mean I would sayit took years after you move,
you moved your family to be withme.
It took me years to actuallytrust that, and it was a lot of
work, and it was a lot of likethere were times where we did
(29:39):
not like each other, right?
Like it was hard to kind ofwe're gonna we're gonna do this
hard work and we're going tochoose joy.
I think a lot of times it's achoice.
You have a fork in the roadevery day, all day, forks of you
can choose to believe the worstabout somebody, or you can
(30:02):
choose the best, but it'sretraining your brain, it's
retraining your actions, yournervous system to be able to
identify okay, I could believewhat my body and my the stories
I'm telling myself are saying,or I can believe that that's not
actually true, that my emotionsare or brain is lying to me
(30:26):
because let's be honest, ourbrains lie to us all day, every
day.
So, like having the choice toassume good intent in a someone
and choose to believe that theyare without factual data, right?
Like, I'm not saying, I'm notsaying believe that this man who
(30:48):
is abusing you really meanswell.
If if if there's a truth, that'strue.
Yeah, that's the trick.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
How do you tell the difference between how do you
retrain your nervous system totrust someone who has your best
intentions and clarify for yournervous system that the
threatening thing is a threat?
I think that's the trick that weendeavor to teach women.
And it's tricky because I thinkat the end of the day, you and I
would probably I think all threeof us would agree that any of
(31:19):
the static that has existed inour relationship as the three of
us have gone deeper and deeperand gotten more and more
intimate, and the trust betweenthe three of us has gotten
richer and richer and richer,that all that other shit before
this moment was noise, right?
Nervous system right static.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Yeah, right.
Was it actually true?
Did you actually say somethingthat was hurtful, or did am I
blocking your love from me?
Right.
And I think a lot there was awoman that that I'm working with
a woman and she is struggling tofind the noise.
So I'm just having her, youknow, just like write down in
(31:55):
your day what is the truth aboutyourself, about the person that
you're with, or about yourfriend, or about what like
what's actually true.
Um, because I think it if youcan kind of sort through with a
sieve and with words and writingit out and some somatics, you
can kind of get some pillarsthat you can hang on to in the
(32:17):
hard moments.
SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
So let's run with that, right?
Because we want our listeners tohave this sentence that they can
hang on to when they're in thespiral, when they're feeling
that urge, that deep, deep,deep, deep urge, right?
And so when they're in this,maybe I should text him back
spiral.
Riff on that, but is it true?
Can It be proven, right?
Like riff on that.
What would you have women reallyask themselves or tell
(32:39):
themselves in that moment tointerrupt the spiral?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Are you gonna get a new outcome?
That's a good one.
You know, and what if he doestext back?
Because every time mine wouldtext me back, and and I'd get
pulled into this shit storm fortwo days of texting back and
forth, then all of a sudden hewould say something, and I'm
like, ah, there it is.
SPEAKER_03 (33:03):
There it is.
SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
There's who he is.
You know, that's who I left.
Um, so understanding that likepeople aren't changing
overnight.
There's a reason why you'reseparated, there's a reason why
you're divorced, there's areason why somebody stepped out
or somebody had an affair orsomebody did this.
Like there was clearly abreakdown in the marriage that
led to a lack of communication,which led to a lack of intimacy,
(33:28):
right?
We could go down the whole path,but my point is like, so go
ahead, you know, test yourselftoo.
You want to text him back, gofor it.
And I guarantee you, within 24to 48 hours, he's gonna say
something on that text threadthat's gonna make you go, oh,
that's why.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
That's why yeah, are you gonna get a new outcome?
You know what's interestingabout what you just said, Teffre
Doodle, is when I was marriedand hadn't done all this work
yet, I wanted overnight change.
That's what I wanted.
And that to me was a sign that Iwas okay.
But that's not real change,that's fake change, right?
That's like first order change,that's faking it change to quiet
the nervous system alarm in mybody that is from layers of
(34:05):
trauma, right?
So anyone who does changequickly or overnight or in a
blink, like it's not authenticreal change.
So yeah, wow.
So are you gonna get a differentoutcome?
Okay, so all of this is why likecutting the cord or going no
contact doesn't really do thetrick, right?
It's a good place to start.
We could do cord visual, likecord cutting visualizations.
(34:28):
In our Thursday premium episode,actually, we're gonna do a
nervous system guidedvisualization so that we can
soften the cord and feel adeeper anchor within self.
But that's a process, right?
That clearly we've allidentified takes time, like deep
energetic work and time andclearing the noise from the
nervous system.
And that happens layer by layer.
(34:50):
So, in the meanwhile, let's talka little bit about how to help
women spot is it trauma callingor is it truth calling?
Is it trauma calling or is ittruth calling?
Trauma or truth, trauma ortruth, trauma or truth.
And I love joy that you talkedabout earlier, like writing down
what's true, what's true, what'strue.
And looking at a person's bodyof work, right?
(35:10):
If this is a relationship that Iwant to invest more time in, and
I say this all the time, whetherit's talking to my daughter
about building friendships ortalking to women about dating,
what does this person's body ofwork say?
Okay, they they we've all gottenbaggage, right?
We've all got baggage, we've allbeen through things.
But what have we done to movethe needle or to transform or to
(35:32):
transmute or to become aclearer, cleaner, more grounded
version of ourselves?
And so if you're engaging withsomeone, what is the body of
work that they've done that hasbeen in the direction of truth
versus just like um I don'tknow, like lip service?
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
I was gonna say that let's make sure we're talking
about action body of work andnot talking body of work.
Because anybody can talk a goodgame.
But to me, I felt like thedifference when I was trying to
choose partners or evaluatepeople or even friends in my
life.
I always looked at their actionsover their words.
That was always a thing.
Like, that's great that you'retelling me that you've done 20
(36:14):
years of therapy and you feellike a new person.
But what in your life says thatabout you?
So making sure that everythingis aligned that way, you know.
And then also when you meetsomebody finally, you know, and
and you want to start datingthem, are they as committed to
their own emotional wellness andgrowth as you are?
Because healing is a lifetimeprocess.
(36:34):
We don't just do therapy for ayear and then everything is
magically okay.
So consistently look for thingsin their life that they're
continuing to do to work onthemselves, whether that's new
hobbies, meditation, yoga, youknow, going to a therapist, um,
you know, what things in theirlife.
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
And you know, you know what character trait or
what um characteristic thatspeaks to, that sort of um being
a student of life, what thatspeaks to is the capacity for
vulnerability and humility,right?
If we are able to practice thebehavior of vulnerability or
humility, we are able to keepcoming to the table of I am a
(37:12):
student of life, of thisrelationship, of this moment,
I'm a student of this moment,right?
And in in IFS, that is one ofthe eight C's is um curiosity,
right?
Or courage or compassion, right?
There are a lot of C's that getat this.
Can you be humble and a studentof this moment kind of concept?
And I find that a lot of peoplereally struggle with what
(37:35):
vulnerability means.
And I had this just come up witha patient earlier this week
because they're like, I don'tknow, I've told I've told them
everything, right?
There's someone you just starteddating, and they're like, I
don't know what you mean.
Dawn, I've been vulnerable, I'vetold them everything.
And I said, But how did it feelto tell them?
And what have you not told themthat still feels like a secret
or something that you're hidingor something that you've
(37:55):
guarded?
Because it's not how much youshare.
I've shared boatloads of thingson the internet, me, Dawn,
right?
But I've shared them very oftenafter I've climbed that
mountain, right?
And I feel a sense of competencyor confidence around it.
And I'm not usually sharing itwhile I'm in the deep insecurity
and vulnerability around it,right?
(38:17):
I I once I once it hits thepodcast, every now and then
you'll hear me announce it like,oh, this feels awkward or hard
to share.
How hard something feels toshare, that's a hallmark of
vulnerability.
And that's what you want to seein your relationships with
people.
Are they meeting you in the landof being a student of the moment
or vulnerable in the moment?
Are they willing to revealplaces about themselves that
(38:38):
leaves them unguarded?
That's how you know.
And I think too often as women,we fall for like the man sharing
some element of their story, butthat's not vulnerability.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
No, because everybody, I call them victim
stories or trauma stories.
You know, it's like you can sithere and recite, this is what
happened to me when I was achild, and this is what happened
to me in my marriage, and yadayada.
And you think that someone issharing raw shit, but they're
not.
They've told this to 50 peoplebefore you.
And really the thing that theyneed to tell you is something
that, and and sometimes I findthat the most vulnerable things
(39:14):
we can share with people don'tseem like big things.
They don't seem like it at all.
No, but it's like that momentwhere you sort of catch and
you're like, should I say this?
Because this feels scary.
You know, that's the thing.
You can rehearse a freakingproduction for anybody.
SPEAKER_03 (39:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's so trendy right now,right?
Like being vulnerable and beingcrying on camera, self-awareness
and self-yeah.
It's I feel like it's having amovement, but is it really like
at the end of the day, are theyauthentic in their in the in the
quiet moments?
SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
Oh, I just had a thought.
Like, are people who filmthemselves crying on the
internet is that a version of atrauma bond?
Because I'm crying right intothe void.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Like looking for the internet points, looking for the
attachment of the internetpoints.
SPEAKER_01 (40:07):
Anyways, because to do it in intimate spaces, right,
is next level.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
That's the thing.
Are they looking at you in theface?
Like, can you tell somebodysomething while looking at them
in the face?
That's really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
Okay.
So we want you to really take alook at your own urge to reach
for the familiar pain, right?
That's the loop we're looking atinterrupting.
And if you haven't really done afull like autopsy on your own
childhood to understand wherethis urge comes from, highly
(40:43):
recommend the book, The BetrayalBond.
The link is in the show notes.
Check that out.
And when you have an urge totext him or anyone else you
catch yourself going to thefamiliar pain around, right?
Ask yourself, am I gonna get adifferent outcome?
And if not, we want you to getgrounded into a healthier
nervous system, truth-based umprocess.
And so join us on Thursday forthe Thursday episode where we're
(41:05):
gonna take you through a guidedvisualization that is going to
help retrain the nervous system.
It's something you have to keepcoming back to and back to and
back to.
And gentle reminder our Thursdaypremium episodes, there are so
many you probably don't evenknow exist.
We have subliminal um meditateguided meditations, we have 528
hertz meditations, we have somany EFT um tapping sequences,
(41:27):
we have some manifestationepisodes, we have some deep
juicy episodes where the threeof us talk about shit we would
never talk about.
That's not behind a paywall.
Like if you haven't checked outpremium, like going all the way
back, like there are so manypremium episodes that help you
do healing, not just learn abouthealing.
We can't, it's not enough tojust have shelf-esteem, right?
Where we read a book and weunderstand a concept.
(41:47):
We have to, we learn by doing.
We don't learn just by learning.
The the real unlocking happensin the taking of the action,
right?
So join us on Thursday wherewe're gonna help you get
grounded into breaking the cycleof going back to the thing that
hurts you.
We love you so much.
Peace.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com