Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
There's no crying in baseball!
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t, Tracie returns to the 1992 Penny Marshall comedy A League of Their Own. Both Guy sisters loved the unabashed feminism and women-centered storytelling of this film when it debuted, and much of movie holds up to their Gen X nostalgia. Marshall lets the audience see how being part of a team creates a sense of belonging and self-worth, how women must excel as an athlete and a lady to be taken seriously, and how putting any kind of qualifier before the word "athlete" becomes a threat to the status quo.
But the feminism isn't entirely joyful, in part because this isn't just 90s era pop culture, but historical fiction based on a real baseball league. And unfortunately, the real-world misogyny Marshall illuminates via feel-good feminism hasn't gone away. It's alive and well and continues to devalue women's abilities, skills, and contributions even in 2026.
Don't worry! There's no need to run to catch this podcast. Just put on your headphones and listen in!
Tags
deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, feminism, pop culture, women, film, comedy, gen x nostalgia, storytelling, movies, cultural commentary, penny marshall, baseball, classic movies, film analysis, nostalgia, 80s and 90s movies, geena davis, tom hanks, analyzing film tropes
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We are on socials! Find us on Facebook at fb.com/dtasspodcast and on Insta at instagram.com/guygirlsmedia. You can also email us at guygirlsmedia at gmail dot com. We would love to hear from you!
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
They end up needing to perform both the coded
(00:03):
masculine athleticism very, verywell, but also the coded,
whatever their other thing is,like in this case, women, their
femininity, they are forced tooverperform their femininity in
order to stay in the role ofathlete.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:26):
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit.
(00:46):
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1992 film A League of TheirOwn with my sister, Emily Guy
Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
I know you've seen this movie.
We may have seen it together thefirst thing we did.
We talked about it multipletimes.
So, but tell me, what's in yourhead?
(01:08):
Like, what's the furniture inyour mind about League of Their
Own?
There's no crying in baseball.
Yep, for me, that's number oneas well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
I remember this film pretty well.
I remember Gina Davis in itbeing amazing.
I remember Madonna.
You know, what if my my tuniccomes undone and my bosoms fly
out?
Because Madonna is actually apretty good actress, but she's
still kind of playing Madonna.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
Less so in this film, I feel like, in than I
mean, we recently talked aboutone of her films with Dick
Tracy.
And I think the writing and thedirecting are better on this
one, and so is Madonna'sperformance, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah.
I remember there's a sisterrelationship between Gina
Davis's character and heryounger sister, played by Laurie
Petty, that resonated with mebecause of us.
I remember really not likingaspects of you just reminded me,
I could not have told you her kiher the character's name, but um
(02:09):
one player who was consideredunattractive, her and her name
was Marla.
There was one point where theyhad to take like I I can't
remember what they call it, butlike lady lessons, lessons on
how to be a lady, finishingschool, finishing school, and
they were asking, like, okay,what do you recommend for each
of these people?
And when they got to Marla, therecommendations, lots of night
(02:32):
games.
It was like, ew.
But then the thing that I havecarried with me for years about
this movie, and I don't know ifyou remember this moment, was it
was years after it had had beenin the theater, it was on TV and
happened to be on.
(02:53):
And at the end of the film, whenall there is a museum about the
league, and yeah, it's in theHall of Fame, the buttons.
The Hall of Hall of Fame.
They have a new exhibit.
Yes.
And all the women come back.
And Lori Pett, uh what are thecharacters' names?
I'm not gonna remember.
I don't know.
Kit is the younger sister, LoriPetty, and Dottie is the older
(03:14):
sister, paid by Gina Davis.
So Dottie and Kit meet eachother at this exhibit, and it's
clear they haven't seen eachother in years.
And you and I both were like,what?
And our parents were like,what's so surprising?
And you and I both were like,but they're sisters.
(03:36):
And that has stuck with me, thefact that you and I are both
like, how do you go yearswithout seeing your sister?
So there are other things, butthat those are the biggies that
are in my head.
So tell me, what why are wetalking about it today?
What's at stake?
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
Yeah, the reason I think it came to my attention
again now is because actuallyNetflix has a new, uh not that
new 2022, but they did like alimited series where they
rebooted it and then it theyaddress some of what's missing
in this.
There's a very brief.
I haven't seen it.
I haven't, so I will not betalking about the Netflix
reboot.
(04:15):
Yeah.
But it also addresses thethere's one moment in the movie
in the Penny Marshall film wherea black woman is watching and
picks up a foul ball and tossesit and like she throws it over
the cutoff man, so to speak, allthe way to like the next player
who then like takes her glovesoff and shakes her hand because
it was thrown so hard.
And so there's this like verybrief nod to the fact that all
(04:39):
baseball, including this women'sleague in the 40s, was
segregated.
And I understand that the rebootaddresses that like more head
on.
So anyway, I think that maybethat was like why it was like
more in my attention.
But I just I loved this movie somuch.
I thought it was hilarious, andI loved all of the different
(05:02):
women.
I loved, as you say, the sisterrelationship.
Although there are things aboutthe dynamic that feel trite and
simplified in terms of theirrivalry that I don't think is
necessary.
But anyway, that's an aside.
Those are sort of the thingsthat are at stake for me, and
why now I think is that theNetflix series was like must
(05:24):
have come across my feet orsomething.
I was like, oh yeah, I love thatmovie.
So so that's why League of TheirOwn, and that's why now.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from The Destination
and then just sketch a couple ofthe buckets of things I want to
talk about.
I'm I don't know if I'm evengonna do a synopsis in the
traditional sense, because yeah,I just don't, I don't think I'm
(05:47):
up to the task, frankly.
But I want to talk about thisfilm and like in many ways it's
feminist, and it is like it's aSisophean task to like truly be
feminist because there's sothere's just so money pressure
is pushing back because it wasso subversive.
The movie makes plain that thesewomen athletes, girls as they
(06:12):
were called, were a threat tothe culture.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
What was so subversive, the film or being an
athlete?
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Being a woman athlete.
Okay.
Like broke the gender binarysomehow in the 40s.
And like the movie has thisvoiceover from an opinion piece
of like a veryconservative-looking woman
talking about how this womenbaseball player, girl, baseball
(06:40):
players are like destroying thefabric of the culture, of the
country, and like what are ourboys gonna do when they come
home?
The existence of femaleathletes, like when you put that
adjective in front of the wordathlete, was a threat.
And so the feminism of the filmis has like such a heavy lift.
(07:02):
So I want to talk about, I wantto unpack that a little bit
more.
I want to talk about too, it waslike the because of that,
there's this melancholy that Ifeel runs through the whole
film, despite the fact that it'sactually a very funny film.
I also want to talk about theways in which this film models
for us how belonging changes aperson's outlook.
(07:24):
Like a lot of we see a lot ofthese characters like gain
greater confidence because oftheir belonging with their
teammates and with the league,which is really beautiful.
I also do want to talk aboutMarla, who you mentioned and her
treatment.
She is sort of a one sour spotin this film a little bit.
And it's not entirely sour, butit just rankles a little bit.
(07:46):
And I'd like to talk about why.
Since I want to talk about sortof female athletes as being kind
of threatening, I think we doneed to talk about masculinity
as well when we talk aboutfemininity and the ways in which
this film explicitly talks abouthow women are disposable.
(08:07):
I love them, but I don't needthem, Mr.
Harvey says.
He's Mr.
Wrigley.
Maybe we'll get a little to thesibling rivalry and sister
relationship.
Maybe we may run out of time.
But there's always the shit weforgot to say.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
So before we jump in, I do want to just say
something that I learned when Isay recently, that could have
been in the last 10 years, butsports bras weren't invented
until the early 70s, which ourgrandmother used to say she was
allergic to exercise.
Maybe that's why.
Yeah, in the early 70s, shewould have been in her 50s.
(08:41):
And I'm like, yeah, you'reallergic to exercise.
Damn, that's uncomfortable.
And so thinking about like thebeing an athletic woman in the
40s, I can't even imagine ifyou're a well-endowed woman who
wants to play sports, yeah,that's going to be subversive.
Like just the amount of effortyou'd have to take to be
(09:04):
comfortable.
And if you're the sort of personwho feels the need to move your
body.
Anyway, I that was justsomething that blew my mind when
I learned it.
And it also was just like, oh, Iunderstand my grandmother much
better now.
But anyway, pray, continue.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
All right.
So the movie opens with anelderly woman who I swear I
thought was Gina Davis in agedmakeup, but it wasn't.
Like the whoever did thecasting, like Kolha Kavod,
amazing job.
Seriously, I thought it was GinaDavis in aged makeup.
It's a different woman.
Anyway, so her daughter ismaking her go to this thing.
(09:46):
We don't know what it is.
We find out it is the opening ofthis new exhibit about the
All-American Girls BaseballLeague from the 1940s.
The elderly Gina Davis, who isnot Gina Davis, is Dottie
Hinson.
She sort of fades out, and wequickly see go into 1943 in
(10:07):
Oregon.
And the most of the movie, likeseven-eighths of the movie, is
this in the past.
So Gina Davis plays DottieHinson, and she's working on a
dairy, her family dairy inOregon.
Her younger sister, Kit, isplayed by Lori Peller.
They're both working in thedairy.
(10:28):
Lori Petty.
What did I say?
Peller.
Oh, Keller is the character'slast name.
Lori Petty plays Kit Keller.
Thank you.
And so that's Dottie's maidenname because.
Presumably.
Presumably, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So these two girls, actually,Dottie gets recruited for this
new all-girls league.
(10:50):
We see them playing baseball,and Dottie's a catcher.
Kit is a pitcher.
And we see like Kit strikes out.
Dottie's giving her advice.
They sort of argue with oneanother.
John Lovitz plays a scout forthis new league.
And he tries to recruit Dottie.
(11:11):
And she's like, uh, I don'tknow.
I mean, I'm married.
I don't really want to do that.
Kit really wants to go.
She really wants to play ball.
They're talking about the leagueis going to pay$75 a week.
They only make$30 a week at thedairy.
So Kit really wants to go.
And they say they're not goingto.
But then there's this fun scenewhere he's on the scout is on
(11:33):
the train and it's pulling awayfrom the station.
And the two women like run afterit and like toss their suitcases
on and like jump on the train.
They make one stop in another, Idon't, maybe Seattle, I don't
remember where, to look atanother girl.
It's Marla.
She is an amazing hitter, likereally incredible hitter.
She's can hit any pitch andshe's sending them there.
(11:56):
It's raining, so it's inside andshe's breaking windows and it's
really great.
And then they get a look at herand she's not so good looking.
In part because her shouldersare hunched and her hair's all
like just straight and she'slike very timid, which is I
think part of what makes her notattractive.
Because that actress is she'sfine looking.
She's not Gina Davis, but whois?
(12:17):
Yeah.
So the John Lovitz is like,yeah, we'll let you know.
And he's leaving.
When the two sisters realizethat what's happening, they put
their stuff down.
They're like, she's good.
She needs to have a chance totry out.
So we get this speech from thedad who's like, it's just her
and me.
Her mom died, and I raised herlike a boy.
It's my fault.
Don't punish her for that.
(12:39):
So anyway, he decides the scoutuh lets her try out.
So we get to Chicago, andthere's like hundreds of women,
or a hundred at least, dozensand dozens of women who are on
this baseball field.
This movie does montage really,really well.
So we see them try out, they'reall really good.
(13:00):
We have this, we meet MadonnaMay is her character's name, and
her best friend Doris, played byRosie O'Donnell, and they're
like real tough, like kind ofNew York-y kind of sense.
And they're, they kind ofantagonize Kit and Dottie such
that like Rosie O'Donnell likethrows a ball at them, and
Dottie like catches itbarehanded, and they're all
(13:22):
really impressed.
And Madonna has said, most ofy'all are gonna go home.
And after Dottie catches it,Madonna's like, well, most of
them are gonna go home.
So we see this great montage ofthem doing all these exercises
together and playing baseball.
And then the teams are announcedwith like sheets of paper, and
(13:44):
both of the sisters are on thesame team.
The Rockford Peaches.
There's a brief interlude with agirl who looks confused, and the
coach is like, Is your name onthe thing or not?
And another woman comes up andis like, Can you read, honey?
And she finds her name and shecan't read.
So that's why she was confused.
So she's also in.
Then they introduce the uniform,which is this dumb mini skirt.
(14:05):
And the women are like, Youcan't play baseball now.
What are you talking about?
Like, that's not.
And then we meet Mr.
Lowenstein, who works for Mr.
Harvey.
So Harvey is like Wrigley, hesells chocolate bars, but it's
meant to be like Wrigley becauseit's Harvey Field with the Ivy.
And so Harvey's one of theowners.
(14:26):
Lowenstein is actually likemanaging the league.
And he says to all of the womenwho have now been put on teams,
this is what this is a uniformyou wear with us.
That's it.
Because every woman on this, orI think he probably says girl in
this league is a lady.
And they have the finishingschool lessons that you
(14:47):
remember, and they have likebeauty consultations.
That's what you remember withthe what do you recommend night
games?
Because each girl is like, get ahaircut or give her some
lipstick or you know, work onher posture.
Like, yeah, exactly.
Make her have two eyebrowsinstead of just one.
Like that sort of like quickjudgment beauty stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
Yeah.
This league is because all themen are fighting the war, so
there's no baseball.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yes, thank you.
So we start the movie.
Well, we start the memory bit.
Part of it is overlain withnewsreels of news talking about
how some of the biggest stars inbaseball are enlisting.
It's during World War II.
And so And Dottie's husband iswell, we learn that later.
(15:32):
But yes, he is overseas.
He's fighting overseas.
So the team gels.
We meet Jimmy Dugan, Tom Hanks.
Mr.
Harvey gives him the gig.
He was a great baseball player,but he was a drunk.
And he blew out his knee.
But Mr.
Harvey tells us, I mean, tellsJimmy, but tells us, yeah, but
(15:54):
you blew out your knee fallingout of a hotel window.
It wasn't playing baseball.
The guy's kind of like a hotmess.
A hot mess.
So Harvey gives Dugan the job.
And Tom Hanks's Dugan likedoesn't want it.
Like Harvey makes it clear, likeyou just, every game you go out,
you wave your little hat, youmake the fans happy, and you get
(16:15):
your paycheck.
Okay.
And like Dugan even says, whydon't I just get an organ
grinder and do a little dancefor them?
And Harvey's like, if your kneecan take it, yes, do it.
Like, so it's very clear thatthis transaction is just about
having Dugan's name associatedwith it.
That's how he takes it.
So with the girls, the firstgame, they're in the locker room
(16:40):
and they haven't even met himyet and they're freaking out
because he's not there and thegame's about to start.
And then he shows up, and as youremember, and they don't have a
lineup.
They don't have a lineup.
They have nothing.
Right.
They have nothing.
They don't have a lineup.
And he's not there.
And he shows up and he's clearlydrunk and he makes a beeline for
the bathroom and starts peeinginto a urinal in the locker
(17:00):
room.
And it's like, and the girls areall like looking at each other
and kind of giggling.
And it's he's peeing for a verylong time.
Like so long that like Madonnagets a watch and starts, May is
the character's name and startstiming him.
And he just he's just a dick.
Like one of the girls has hisbaseball card that belongs to
her husband that he she wants toget him to sign.
And he rips it up.
(17:21):
He doesn't say anything toanyone.
So they make their own lineup.
So Dottie, Gina Davis'scharacter, effectively becomes
the manager.
He sleeps through most of thegames.
And we again montages.
Well, eventually one day he sortof wakes up.
She's Gina Davis is giving signsto the batter.
It happens to be Marla, who istheir strongest hitter.
(17:43):
Gina Davis, Dottie is givingMarla the sign to bunt.
And he's like, why would youbunt on our best hitter?
And so now it's a very funnyscene that I was stuck in my
head with Tom Hanks and GinaDavis standing next to each
other, both giving signs to thebatter, and the batter like
stepping in and out of the box,like not sure what to do.
From that moment, Dugan startsactually paying attention.
(18:07):
He starts actually managing, buthe's managing the way he was
managed.
So then we get this the scenewhere Evelyn missed the cutoff
man and he berates her until shecries.
And he's like, Are you crying?
And she's like, No, but she'sobviously crying.
That there's no crying inbaseball scene.
The umpire, the fur the homeplate umpire comes over, is
(18:28):
like, is there a problem, Mr.
Dugan?
And he says, you know, she'scrying.
Like, there's no crying inbaseball.
And the ump is like, Well,perhaps you berated her too
vehemently.
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
I didn't remember that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
And the ump turns around, like it's like a
pleasant enough exchange, butthe ump turns around and Dugan
says, Did anybody ever tell youyou look like a penis in a
little cap?
And so the ump ejects him, andthe team applauds that he's been
ejected because he's just helike slept through their games
for most of the season, and nowhe's like yelling at them.
(19:04):
So then we see sort of aredemption arc of him, in part
through his like conversationswith Dottie.
There's a scene where Maypoisons their, they have like a
chaperone, like like a denmother kind of a thing who
travels with them, and shepoisons her, puts something in
her dinner so she's likethrowing up so the girls can
(19:24):
sneak out and go to this little,like a speakeasy where they go
dancing, and which has thisamazing scene of Madonna swing
dancing.
It's really fun.
It's really fun.
In that scene, Marla ends up alittle drunk and on the stage
singing to a boy who she's gotthe hots for, Nelson, who she
(19:45):
ends up marrying.
And it's a little, I mean, it'sembarrassing.
Like Dottie come, Dottie had notgone with them to the speakeasy,
but finds out that Mr.
Lowenstein is coming and theyneed, they can't get caught
doing this.
So he shotty comes to thespeakeasy to like tell the
girls, come on, go home.
And she's like, What did you doto her?
What did you do to Marla?
And Madonna says, nothing.
(20:06):
We just gave her a dress and alot of liquor.
The movie continues, a lot moreplaying montages, a lot more
like softening on Jimmy, andhe's actually like helping them
win and they're winning andthey're doing great.
Kit and Dottie have a couple ofmoments of rivalry and friction,
so much so that at one point Kitsays, When you're here, it's
(20:29):
like I'm not here.
And Dottie's really upset bythis.
Like she really cares about hersister.
And so she says to Lowenstein,I'm she decides to quit to let
her sister have baseball becauseshe's married, she's gonna go
back to the dairy.
Lowenstein, meanwhile, the wareffort is going well overseas.
And so Harvey's like, I don'tneed this anymore because men's
(20:50):
baseball is still around.
Lowenstein is trying to fight tokeep the league.
So when Dottie says she's gonnaquit, he's freaking out a little
bit because she's the mostpopular player.
And she says, Well, I can't,like Kit and I can't be
together, trade me or something.
Just make a decision quicklybecause I'm leaving tomorrow.
Well, Lowenstein trades Kit, andthat causes a big falling out
(21:11):
between them.
And it sets up the sort ofclimax of the movie where the
world series of this league isbetween the Peaches, where
Dottie still is the catcher, andthe racing, I can't remember the
name of the team, but adifferent team where Kit has
been traded.
And so, meanwhile, Bob, Dottie'shusband, has come home from war.
(21:36):
He got injured.
He's gonna be fine, but he'sbeen discharged because of his
injury.
So she's gonna quit and go home.
And there's this scene whereJimmy Dugan, the manager, Tom
Hanks' character, is like, youcan't just quit baseball.
Like, you love baseball.
You can't just quit baseball.
And she's like, Well, watch me.
But then she shows up for thefinal game of the World Series
because they were driving backto Oregon from the East Coast.
(22:00):
And you know, they got as far asI don't remember what town, and
she turned around because shereally wanted to play.
So the final game, it's tiedthree and three.
The final, the seventh game ofthe series, it's the bottom of
the knife.
Kit is the base runner, andDottie is the catcher.
Kit knocks Dottie over andDottie drops the ball.
And now we have seen Dottie holdon to the ball before in that
(22:25):
exact circumstance, like morethan once.
So there's always a question ofwhether she actually did it on
purpose or not to give hersister the win.
And then Kit is the star of the,you know, she's the MVP because
she like brought in the win,like they the racing team wins
the game.
The fans in the stands areshouting, Kit, Kit, Kit, and we
see a little smile on GinaDavis's face.
(22:46):
So then we cut back to presentday 1992 and the or whatever it
is in the baseball hall of fame.
And we see Dottie, now olderDottie, like remeeting all of
these, the women that were onthe team.
We find that some of them diedand like whatever.
And they're still like kickingass.
We see a lot of footage of themplaying baseball as their older
(23:06):
selves.
And we also see a little bit inthe actual exhibit where we see
pictures from the movie we'vejust seen as historical photos.
And then that re reunion scenethat you remember of Dottie who
is by herself and Kit who haslike a whole passel of her
family, like her kids andgrandkids with her, and the
sisters like hug and with justgenuine affection.
(23:30):
There's a bunch of other stuffthat I forgot.
It doesn't really matter.
We'll get into it.
That's the like the basic courseof the movie.
Like they started a leaguebecause men were at war.
The women were really good.
And at first people like mockedthem, but then they really got
into it.
And then the men were going tocome home, so they were going to
cancel the league, but theymanaged to save it.
(23:51):
And there's lots of love.
That's sort of the basic gist ofit.
The thing that doesn't get toldis the league only lasted till
1954.
What does get said explicitly,like Lowenstein's like really
upset when Harvey says he'sgoing to cancel the league
because he doesn't need themanymore because we have men's
baseball.
(24:12):
And Lowenstein's like, I guessthat's what's going to happen in
the factories too.
Sorry, Rosie, turn in yourrivets, go back to the kitchen.
And Harvey's like, well, whatare we going to do?
Is send the men coming back fromwar back to the kitchen?
Like it acknowledges thistension, but doesn't actually
(24:32):
like not that it could solve itbecause it's historical, but it
doesn't even offer I don't know.
I found it unsatisfying to sortof talk about it, but not like
give us anything.
Like, yeah, basically they'reexpected to go back into the
kitchen.
And I found that especiallybecause of all of the benefits
(24:54):
that we see for these women.
I mean, some of them are kind ofgross, like Marlis the first to
get married, like she justneeded a dress and some liquor,
and now she's like, A-okay.
Like that's a little bit gross.
But there are other things, likeRosie O'there's this one scene
on the bus with RosieO'Donnell's character, Doris,
where I don't remember who whatother player she's talking to,
(25:15):
but they're looking at a pictureof Doris's boyfriend.
The other person, I think maybeit's Kit.
And she's like, Is it picture alittle out of focus?
And Doris is like, nah, that'sjust how he looks.
And Kit's like, well, looksaren't everything.
And Doris is like, yeah, whatmatters is that he's stupid and
he treats me bad.
And Kit's like, well, then whyare you with him?
And Doris is like, well, I mean,he's the only guy who ever like
(25:37):
liked me because I was always soweird because I was like good at
baseball and stuff.
But then she like looks aroundat the bus and she's like, but
look, there's a lot of us andlike we're great.
I don't need this.
And she like rips up his pictureand says, bye-bye, Charlie, and
like puts it out the bus window.
So we see it pretty explicitly,the way that baseball, that this
experience for these women haschanged the course of their
(26:00):
lives in positive ways.
And we're allowed to have a kindof a happy ending.
But what we aren't told at allis like it was temporary.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
I'd love to bring in something that's kind of
topical.
I don't know if this is anythingthat you've been paying any
attention to.
And just listeners, we wererecording this on February 27th.
So I don't know if you saw themen's Olympic hockey team.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
Yes, I did.
The women's team apparently wereinvited as an afterthought to
the White House and declined andwent to Vegas with Flava Flav
instead.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Well, and we're also invited by uh Stanley Tucci to
the case.
Stanley Tucci.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
So, but specifically, what Iwant to talk about is how in the
phone call in the locker room,when our current president
called the team and called themen's team or the women's team?
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
The phone call.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Oh no.
Oh, this is the part that I thatis important and relates to the
Wrigley character.
Harvey, you said Harvey issaying what the president said
to the men's hockey team was,oh, I suppose I have to call and
invite the women's team too,huh?
As a joke.
And all of the men's teamlaughed because, like, we don't
(27:24):
really need them.
What are we going to send themen home to cook and clean while
the women keep the jobs in thefactory?
Right.
To your point about how, like,how this is so beneficial to
women, the captain of thewomen's team that they were
doing some sort of pressconference, and they asked her
about this situation.
And one of the things she saidwas, I'm here answering
(27:47):
questions about someone else'sbehavior, and that is not my
responsibility.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I feel like that is the kindof confidence you get by being
an athlete and being the captainof a Olympic, a gold-winning
Olympic team.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Right, right.
I think what this topical thingpoints to is that from the very
beginning of this film, from thevery beginning of like Jimmy
Dugan, Tom Hanks' characters'interaction with them, he keeps
talking about girls and ballplayers as a mutually exclusive
list, right?
It's a binary.
There are girls and there areball players.
(28:25):
You all are not ballplayers.
And by the end of the film, bythe end of his experience with
them, like he knows they areball players.
He speaks to Dottie as a fellowball player who whom he
respects.
And in fact, we learned thatHarvey offered him a job
coaching AA men's, and hedeclined to continue coaching
(28:47):
the women's team.
So the film shows us that binarybreaking down.
But what this topical momentreminds us is that that
redemption arc may have happenedfor this character, but it
didn't happen for our country.
Not for happened for our actualculture, not at writ large.
(29:07):
That's, I think, what I wasreacting to when my postcard
about feminism is that, and evenin my like dissatisfaction with
naming the problem, is that itjust feels Sisophean, is the
word that I used earlier.
And that is in fact how itfeels, even within this movie,
(29:29):
that does, in many ways, a greatjob.
I mean, like Alison Bechtel hasnothing to complain about in
this movie, right?
Like and yet, like the deck isstacked so deep against these
characters that it's, I mean,it's just like like woven into
the fabric of society.
I did read, I skimmed oneactually academic paper that
(29:50):
talked about when you have aqualifier in front of the word
athlete, whether it's female orgay, homosexual, like any
version of that, that it suddenthat that person suddenly
becomes a threat because theyare counter to sort of what
athleticism means to thisculture.
(30:13):
And I think that's right.
And I think that's too probablywhy the 92 film, all the women
were straight.
Oh, yeah.
As far as we knew, because likemaking them female and gay was
just too much for 1992, eventhough it is likely that at
least some of the women in thatleague in the 40s and 50s were
(30:36):
lesbians.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Yeah.
The fact that that they are athreat explains why Harvey was
like, I don't need them anymore.
When you would think acapitalist would be like, double
the money.
unknown (30:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Which is exactly what Lowenstein says.
Loinstein says, You told me tomake it make money, it's making
money.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
Yeah.
And so, like, there is no reasonwhy he couldn't have both.
Right.
Right.
Like, honestly, there that thatthat it is mind-boggling that a
money-grubbing capitalistwouldn't want to have a women's
league and a men's league thatare not competing with each
(31:18):
other because they are not.
You could sell double thetickets, you could sell double
the concessions, you could selldouble the merchandise.
Right.
And he is convinced, at leasttemporarily.
SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
So, but I think that the thing, too, that then the
logical corollary for the nextsegue in this conversation is
then to talk about whatmasculinity means within this
culture, within this worldviewthat finds a female athlete to
be a threat.
And I think we see that in Dugana bit.
So he is he's a drunk.
(31:50):
He's not fighting in the war.
And we have a conversation aboutthat.
He and Dottie talk about it onone of the many bus rides that
we see, where he's not fightingin the war because his knee is
bone on bone.
There's no cartilage in hisknee, he says.
And then he says, But you don'treally need your knee to shoot
Nazis, do you?
You just need this.
And he like wiggles his triggerfinger.
He says, I can do this.
(32:12):
There's definitely a sense thathe feels emasculated by not
fighting in the war effort,which one I think is meant to
believe that's at least part ofwhy he continues drinking.
He also finds it deeplyemasculating to have been
assigned this or to have beengiven this job.
I mean, I say assigned as if hehad no choice.
He has, he could have said no,but he needed the money.
So, but he feels emasculated inthis gig of managing a women's
(32:37):
team of girls who are not ballplayers, remember.
And he gets there.
But from the beginning, theassumption is that if these
women can be ball players andhe's a ball player, like what
does that mean?
What does that mean about who heis?
Like that is clearly like whatis going on in the background
(32:58):
around his masculinity.
The movie shows us that in orderto make this okay, a couple of
things happen.
One is that the women have toprove themselves.
So from their very first game,there's a heckler who is like
standing on the dugout and he'slike, look at me, I'm and he's
like doing this reallyobnoxious, like mocking, and
(33:19):
it's loud and obnoxious.
And one of the women throws aball at him and like clocks him
and knocks him down, and likethe whole everybody laughs at
him.
And her teammates kind of lookat her and she's like, What?
It slipped.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
Oops, I'm just a girl.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
So the other moment of sort of proving is like John
Lovitz's scout does not wantkit, and he's shaking her hand
like good luck, and he like putshis other hand on her bicep and
like he starts like feeling hermuscle up and down, which is a
weird sort of twist on unwantedcontact.
And he's like, Oh, you can tryout.
(34:00):
Like when he feels how strongshe is.
So I put both of those in thesame category of these women
needing to like prove themselvesin the masculine way.
Like prove themselves that theyare up to snuff in the things
that traditionally fall on themasculine column, i.e., the
sports and the strength.
(34:23):
There are also ways that themovie makes plain that they are
forced to perform femininity.
So that like the skirts.
The skirts and also thefinishing.
And we get so they do all thefinishing school stuff.
But what comes out of that isthis, like these news stories
about like how, you know, Bettyis a great center fielder, but
(34:49):
she also makes a great cup ofcoffee.
And then we see like this stagedthing where she's like pouring
coffee from this beautifulcarafe thing for men on the
field.
And then like there's one pointwhere there's not a lot of
crowd, and Loenstein tells thegirls there's a reporter and a
photographer from Time magazinein the stands.
(35:11):
And could they give it a littleextra?
Because we he's trying to likedrum up more interest in the
league.
And so at one point, Dottie haslike there's a pop-up foul that
she's the catcher remember.
So she's gonna get under iteasily.
Like we hear the announcer inthe stadium saying that.
So we know that even if we'renot baseball people, she catches
(35:32):
a glimpse of the bored reporterand photographer.
So she does a split while shecatches it, which ends up on the
cover of Time magazine.
So these women, because they area threat, are forced to prove
themselves in the masculinecategory of strengths and
(35:52):
ashleticism, but also performfemininity like hyper femininity
or novel femininity in like thecoffee pouring or the splits.
Which I think is an accuraterepresentation of what happens
(36:13):
when someone who has thatqualifier in front of the word,
female or gay or whatever it is,black, that is not what the
broader culture is expecting,have to perform in both
categories, like more than andcredential themselves more than.
(36:34):
I think it's accurate.
That doesn't make it lessdepressing.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
For me to like really wrap my minds around it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
And that's part of what is why Marla's kind of a
sour spot in the movie, becauseshe can't just be an athlete.
She and she's going to strugglewith performing femininity as
the character is written and asthe actress portrays her, which
is just like that's infuriatingwhen she is a gifted baseball
(37:09):
player.
Right.
Whereas like in a men's league,a male athlete who was similarly
gifted would have been likefirst draft pick.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Similarly gifted and similarly like socially inept,
like socially awkward.
Exactly.
Wouldn't matter.
It wouldn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Same player change gender.
Yeah, wouldn't matter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's infuriating and like andhasn't changed.
Right.
I'm just thinking of the factthat you and I recently took a
meeting with someone who calledus girls.
unknown (37:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
In his defense, the signature on my email does say
podcaster at Guy Girls Mediawith Emily Guybergen.
So perhaps he was thinking ofthat.
Perhaps.
Probably not though.
SPEAKER_00 (37:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I I the feeling the need toperform femininity, especially
as an athlete.
It's part of what I feel likethe friction between Dottie and
(38:21):
Kit is about, in some ways.
Or at least that's how Iremember reading it.
In that it felt like Kit in alot of ways felt like she was
always running behind her bigsister.
Yes, definitely.
And not just about baseball,about everything.
Yes.
Including the fact that her bigsister was Gina Davis and Gina
(38:43):
Davis is Gina Davis.
Now that's not to say that LoriPetty isn't absolutely gorgeous.
SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
No, but like Petty is cute.
At least in the way that she'sdressed and whatever and makeup
and hair in this film.
Like Kit is cute.
And Dottie is knockout drop deadgorgeous.
Kit is cute.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
And so like I know part of where that friction
between the sisters is, thesense that, like in every arena,
like performative feministfeminism, um feminine
performative femininity,baseball, dating because Dottie
has Bob while she's married.
(39:24):
All of these things, it feelslike Dottie is ahead.
Yeah.
unknown (39:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Which is why Kit says, when you're here, it's
like I'm not here.
Exactly.
And so that performativefemininity is not an arena most
women, I don't think, want toplay in.
I don't know.
I mean, I wouldn't say most.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
I think some women dig it.
I mean, girly girls are like it.
That's that's true.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
That's true.
It's the required aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
I think when one does it because one enjoys it,
that's fine.
True.
It's when it's required in orderto do something else that's
completely unrelated, that isnot fine.
Right.
Like even Tyra Banks, I wouldexpect, would resent like
needing to be Tyra Banks inorder to go to the gym.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
These women resented having to wear a skirt to play
baseball.
Right.
Yeah.
Even like Betty, who was verymuch a girly girl.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Many of the girls were very much girly girls.
Yeah.
But like I mean, there's areason we see at one point one
of them slides feet first at onepoint.
And then later we see her lyingout on the bench with like a
cold pack on her thigh and abruise, you know, bigger than
your head from where she slidbare flesh against the dirt.
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Exactly.
So yeah, I I think that this isnot a critique of the film,
right?
Like I'm not mad at PennyMarshall or at any of the
writers.
Like I'm mad at the UnitedStates of America and our
culture in 1990, in 1943, and in1992, and in 2026.
(41:02):
Like I'm mad at our culture thatwe're still so ingrained in this
unexamined sense of what isnormal.
I'm putting quotes around thatword and making it male and
white and straight so thatpeople who don't fit one or more
(41:26):
of those categories have allthis extra work to do in order
to just play baseball or promotea podcast or you know, like be
celebrated.
Or be celebrated for winning afucking gold medal.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
So, you know, I think that's an important thing
to note.
Like, this film is about thisproject, this podcast is about a
film, but I'm not actually likecritiquing the film.
I think the film portraysaccurately what I'm critiquing
in our culture.
It's worth noting that JimmyDugan is a strong representative
(42:07):
of what's wrong with theculture.
And through proximity, he seeshis way past it.
I think that's also an accurateportrayal of how this works.
Right.
Like proximity is the number onefactor in overcoming biases,
right?
So I think that's also anaccurate portrayal.
(42:31):
So I would like to talk brieflyin the main episode, and then
there's some stuff I'll bring upin the shit we forgot to say
about the sister dynamic.
Since you talked about that asone of the things that, you
know, that was important to you.
I think from the beginning, wesee there is a rivalry between
them.
Like, Kit, while they're stillin the dairy, Kit's like, you
can't even let me walk ahead ofyou.
(42:53):
And Dottie's like, Yes, I can,but she clearly can't because
they're walking and like Dottiekeeps going faster.
And so they're like racing eachother, like flat out running.
Yeah.
And Dottie wins.
So because she's Gina Davis'slegs.
Right.
That's actually exactly likethat's exactly what Kit says.
She says it's not fair, yourlegs are longer.
(43:14):
But we also do see like Dottiecares about Kit and Kit's
well-being.
Like both are true, which Ithink is real.
And I also think there's adegree to which like the rivalry
feels like trite to me, thesibling rivalry, especially in
the athletics.
(43:34):
And I'm not an expert in siblingrivalry.
I only know my own experience,but I cannot imagine like being
in like any kind of situation,even where there was competition
between us, where I didn't havejust like joy and pride in your
(43:55):
accomplishments.
Right.
Like I mean, even if there's amoment of Like, oh, I wish I had
that too.
It wouldn't be to like take youdown, or even to like prove my
anything.
And I want to believe, Ibelieve, that there are more
sisters like us than like that.
(44:16):
But I think Hollywood likes thatstory of that rivalry.
And so sometimes it getsoverlain even where it doesn't
belong.
And I think that these twosisters is two fictional sisters
based on real life people, Idon't think it needed it.
(44:37):
Like, or at least not to thedegree that it was given.
I mean, like, there's somethingnice as a viewer in not knowing
for sure if Dottie let the ballgo or if she genuinely had it
knocked out of her hand.
There is something nice in that.
But I think there are othermoments of where Dottie takes
(44:58):
the bait, so to speak, that Idon't think were necessary.
That I think we could have seena little bit more just, I don't
know, sibling revelry, as youand I like to say.
And I would love to seeHollywood do that a little more.
Like, let there be like there,this is a loving relationship,
(45:20):
but it's got this thorn in it,such that they haven't seen each
other in years and they'redelighted to see one another.
But I think that Hollywood coulddo a better job of giving us
some models of what it lookslike to like, of course, I mean,
you've known me longer thananyone in the world.
And so, of course, there areways that you can push my
buttons that no one else could.
(45:42):
And also, you've known me longerthan anyone in the world.
And so we love each other morethan the other people in our
life.
Like, I just, I don't know.
I'm not even sure where I'mgoing with this, but I do have a
little bit of a bone to pickthat I think it's a little the
rivalry itself is a littleexaggerated, I believe.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
The only thing I'll push back against that is that
so in 1943, they're in theirlike early 20s.
Is that how old they're supposedto be?
I think Dottie's meant to bemaybe like mid-20s and like
early 20s.
So they would have been born inlike the teens.
Yeah.
So just the difference inparenting between then and when
(46:24):
you and I were born, I thinkmakes a huge difference in how
siblings would relate to eachother, how rivalries would
Maybe.
SPEAKER_01 (46:34):
Maybe.
But I think that you're likegiving like a very situational
like reason for these particularcharacters.
And I'm saying It's Hollywood asa whole.
Like the trope of the likesisterly like rivalry.
SPEAKER_00 (46:49):
The reason I bring that up is just that I'm
thinking that people in thewriter's room might have been
thinking about their own mothersand aunts who would have been
about that age.
Yeah, maybe.
But you might be right.
And I I agree, like one of myfavorite books that I read
recently was Uprooted by NaomiNovik.
And part of the reason why Iloved it was that it had two
young women best friends.
(47:10):
It was a realistic relationshipbetween them where there was
some of that friction that youcan have with a best friend as
an older teen.
That friction was just a tinypart of it.
Most of it was just absolutelove for each other and
willingness to do anything foreach other.
And it was so rare.
It's so rare to see that.
(47:30):
Yeah.
So I hear you.
I definitely hear you.
And then the fact that like youand I both were like, but
they're sisters.
Yeah.
What the f the PTF, man?
Yeah.
Like years?
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not realistic.
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
I have a little bit more to say.
So, listeners, if you like whatwe're doing here and if you want
to make sure we can keep doingthis content, we would love it
if you would have head over toour Patreon and give us a couple
bucks every month.
And then you get to see the shitwe forgot to say.
So just a little plug before Iwrap up.
(48:06):
So, League of Their Own, the 92film, not the new reboot on
Netflix.
This film, the first thing, thefirst place I started was damn,
the casting was good.
Like, really, really good.
Not just the woman who playsolder Dottie and the woman who
plays older Kit, who seriouslylook like those two actresses in
in age makeup, but also likeMadonna and Rosie O'Donnell.
(48:30):
So believable.
Like each of these, like thecasting was really, really good.
So that's sort of where Istarted.
We spent a lot of time talkingabout this film, not critiquing
the film, but the way the filmsort of lays bare a truth about
our culture, wherein, inparticular in this film, we're
talking about athletes.
(48:50):
The word athlete is masculine,apparently.
And so when we are talking aboutanything with a qualifier before
that word, that person, in thiscase, we're talking about white
women, but in any case, in anyqualifier to that word, they end
up needing to perform both thecoded masculine athleticism
(49:11):
very, very well, but also thecoded, whatever their other
thing is, like in this case,women, their femininity, they
are forced to overperform theirfemininity in order to stay in
the role of athlete, which isreally effed up.
And I, it's getting me agitated,honestly.
(49:32):
Especially because this movieshows us how this, in this case,
baseball, but whatever thisthing is that lights a person up
when they get to do it withother people for whom it also
lights them up, it changes thecourse of their life.
We see women in this filmcharacters who were misfits at
(49:54):
home and find belonging on thisteam.
They find belonging on this teamin ways that enhance their
confidence.
And one can only imagine theirmental health and well-being for
the rest of their lives.
And so the fact that they haveto like jump through these hoops
in order to have it, it's just,it's an undercurrent of
(50:15):
melancholy for me in this film,because what the film gives us a
happy ending-ish, but what itdoesn't tell us is that the
league only lasted for, youknow, another 10 years or so.
And then it just, it justdisbanded.
Because there's stuff aboutfemininity, there's also stuff
about masculinity in this film,mainly through the person of
(50:37):
Jimmy Dugan, played by TomHanks, who has the binary of
girls and ball players, as ifthose two things are mutually
exclusive when he starts thefilm, but by the end, he
respects not just Dottie, butall of his players as ball
players and becomes a bettercoach as well.
(50:59):
We see him, the woman he madecry, we see him later tell
Evelyn she's still missing thecutoff man and he wants her to
work on that before next season.
And he's like shaking with theeffort to say it in that way.
But he does, and she's doesn'tcry.
So let me see.
I did I mentioned briefly, andyou talked about a little bit
(51:20):
too, the character of Marla, whois presented to us as not pretty
from the beginning, and likewhat a double standard that is,
since she's female and not maleathlete, that a different if she
had been more a man, she wouldhave been her dad even says that
he'd be in New York becauseshe'd be on playing for the
Yankees or something.
And the way that the characterstreat her is a problem.
(51:43):
The way the film treats her alsofeels like a sour spot because
once she finally like gets alittle bit of femininity, then
you know, she gets married andnow she's a fulfilled human
being.
And and that feels kind ofgross.
That's what the film tells us ittakes for her to be a fulfilled
human being.
SPEAKER_00 (51:59):
My my mic was muted, so you couldn't hear my eye
roll, but I think it was such abig one that it was audible.
SPEAKER_01 (52:08):
We talked a bit about women as being sort of
disposable and like not actuallyimportant, which is all wrapped
up in our critique of theculture, which is still the same
because as you pointed out,we've just seen almost the exact
same thing happen with the goldmedal Olympic win, the Olympic
gold medal winning ice hockeyteam from the United States who
(52:33):
were invited to the White Houseas an afterthought because they
happen to be women.
So good for Clava Flav andStanley Tucci for making up for
that.
Thank you to those, those twoallies.
Okay, and the last thing that wetalked about, which I think is
gonna remain an open questionfor me, is the rivalry between
these two sisters.
Like, how this is a challenge toHollywood and to writers.
(52:57):
Like, how do we portray the realfriction that happens between
sisters because they know eachother so well without turning it
into a flat sort of rivalry andchip on the shoulder?
Because it's not flat.
That's the thing that I'm thatis bothering me.
It was sort of flattened into achip on his shoulder, and kit
(53:18):
wasn't okay until Kit sort ofliterally beat Dottie in
something.
And that feels too flat.
So what are you bringing me nextweek?
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Next week, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on
the Muppets Take Manhattan.
I think it's my first time I getto do a Muppets.
Oh, I can't wait.
I am very excited.
SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
They end up needing to perform both the coded
(00:03):
masculine athleticism very, verywell, but also the coded,
whatever their other thing is,like in this case, women, their
femininity, they are forced tooverperform their femininity in
order to stay in the role ofathlete.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:26):
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit.
(00:46):
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1992 film A League of TheirOwn with my sister, Emily Guy
Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
I know you've seen this movie.
We may have seen it together thefirst thing we did.
We talked about it multipletimes.
So, but tell me, what's in yourhead?
(01:08):
Like, what's the furniture inyour mind about League of Their
Own?
There's no crying in baseball.
Yep, for me, that's number oneas well.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
I remember this film pretty well.
I remember Gina Davis in itbeing amazing.
I remember Madonna.
You know, what if my my tuniccomes undone and my bosoms fly
out?
Because Madonna is actually apretty good actress, but she's
still kind of playing Madonna.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
Less so in this film, I feel like, in than I
mean, we recently talked aboutone of her films with Dick
Tracy.
And I think the writing and thedirecting are better on this
one, and so is Madonna'sperformance, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah.
I remember there's a sisterrelationship between Gina
Davis's character and heryounger sister, played by Laurie
Petty, that resonated with mebecause of us.
I remember really not likingaspects of you just reminded me,
I could not have told you her kiher the character's name, but um
(02:09):
one player who was consideredunattractive, her and her name
was Marla.
There was one point where theyhad to take like I I can't
remember what they call it, butlike lady lessons, lessons on
how to be a lady, finishingschool, finishing school, and
they were asking, like, okay,what do you recommend for each
of these people?
And when they got to Marla, therecommendations, lots of night
(02:32):
games.
It was like, ew.
But then the thing that I havecarried with me for years about
this movie, and I don't know ifyou remember this moment, was it
was years after it had had beenin the theater, it was on TV and
happened to be on.
(02:53):
And at the end of the film, whenall there is a museum about the
league, and yeah, it's in theHall of Fame, the buttons.
The Hall of Hall of Fame.
They have a new exhibit.
Yes.
And all the women come back.
And Lori Pett, uh what are thecharacters' names?
I'm not gonna remember.
I don't know.
Kit is the younger sister, LoriPetty, and Dottie is the older
(03:14):
sister, paid by Gina Davis.
So Dottie and Kit meet eachother at this exhibit, and it's
clear they haven't seen eachother in years.
And you and I both were like,what?
And our parents were like,what's so surprising?
And you and I both were like,but they're sisters.
(03:36):
And that has stuck with me, thefact that you and I are both
like, how do you go yearswithout seeing your sister?
So there are other things, butthat those are the biggies that
are in my head.
So tell me, what why are wetalking about it today?
What's at stake?
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
Yeah, the reason I think it came to my attention
again now is because actuallyNetflix has a new, uh not that
new 2022, but they did like alimited series where they
rebooted it and then it theyaddress some of what's missing
in this.
There's a very brief.
I haven't seen it.
I haven't, so I will not betalking about the Netflix
reboot.
(04:15):
Yeah.
But it also addresses thethere's one moment in the movie
in the Penny Marshall film wherea black woman is watching and
picks up a foul ball and tossesit and like she throws it over
the cutoff man, so to speak, allthe way to like the next player
who then like takes her glovesoff and shakes her hand because
it was thrown so hard.
And so there's this like verybrief nod to the fact that all
(04:39):
baseball, including this women'sleague in the 40s, was
segregated.
And I understand that the rebootaddresses that like more head
on.
So anyway, I think that maybethat was like why it was like
more in my attention.
But I just I loved this movie somuch.
I thought it was hilarious, andI loved all of the different
(05:02):
women.
I loved, as you say, the sisterrelationship.
Although there are things aboutthe dynamic that feel trite and
simplified in terms of theirrivalry that I don't think is
necessary.
But anyway, that's an aside.
Those are sort of the thingsthat are at stake for me, and
why now I think is that theNetflix series was like must
(05:24):
have come across my feet orsomething.
I was like, oh yeah, I love thatmovie.
So so that's why League of TheirOwn, and that's why now.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from The Destination
and then just sketch a couple ofthe buckets of things I want to
talk about.
I'm I don't know if I'm evengonna do a synopsis in the
traditional sense, because yeah,I just don't, I don't think I'm
(05:47):
up to the task, frankly.
But I want to talk about thisfilm and like in many ways it's
feminist, and it is like it's aSisophean task to like truly be
feminist because there's sothere's just so money pressure
is pushing back because it wasso subversive.
The movie makes plain that thesewomen athletes, girls as they
(06:12):
were called, were a threat tothe culture.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
What was so subversive, the film or being an
athlete?
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Being a woman athlete.
Okay.
Like broke the gender binarysomehow in the 40s.
And like the movie has thisvoiceover from an opinion piece
of like a veryconservative-looking woman
talking about how this womenbaseball player, girl, baseball
(06:40):
players are like destroying thefabric of the culture, of the
country, and like what are ourboys gonna do when they come
home?
The existence of femaleathletes, like when you put that
adjective in front of the wordathlete, was a threat.
And so the feminism of the filmis has like such a heavy lift.
(07:02):
So I want to talk about, I wantto unpack that a little bit
more.
I want to talk about too, it waslike the because of that,
there's this melancholy that Ifeel runs through the whole
film, despite the fact that it'sactually a very funny film.
I also want to talk about theways in which this film models
for us how belonging changes aperson's outlook.
(07:24):
Like a lot of we see a lot ofthese characters like gain
greater confidence because oftheir belonging with their
teammates and with the league,which is really beautiful.
I also do want to talk aboutMarla, who you mentioned and her
treatment.
She is sort of a one sour spotin this film a little bit.
And it's not entirely sour, butit just rankles a little bit.
(07:46):
And I'd like to talk about why.
Since I want to talk about sortof female athletes as being kind
of threatening, I think we doneed to talk about masculinity
as well when we talk aboutfemininity and the ways in which
this film explicitly talks abouthow women are disposable.
(08:07):
I love them, but I don't needthem, Mr.
Harvey says.
He's Mr.
Wrigley.
Maybe we'll get a little to thesibling rivalry and sister
relationship.
Maybe we may run out of time.
But there's always the shit weforgot to say.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
So before we jump in, I do want to just say
something that I learned when Isay recently, that could have
been in the last 10 years, butsports bras weren't invented
until the early 70s, which ourgrandmother used to say she was
allergic to exercise.
Maybe that's why.
Yeah, in the early 70s, shewould have been in her 50s.
(08:41):
And I'm like, yeah, you'reallergic to exercise.
Damn, that's uncomfortable.
And so thinking about like thebeing an athletic woman in the
40s, I can't even imagine ifyou're a well-endowed woman who
wants to play sports, yeah,that's going to be subversive.
Like just the amount of effortyou'd have to take to be
(09:04):
comfortable.
And if you're the sort of personwho feels the need to move your
body.
Anyway, I that was justsomething that blew my mind when
I learned it.
And it also was just like, oh, Iunderstand my grandmother much
better now.
But anyway, pray, continue.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
All right.
So the movie opens with anelderly woman who I swear I
thought was Gina Davis in agedmakeup, but it wasn't.
Like the whoever did thecasting, like Kolha Kavod,
amazing job.
Seriously, I thought it was GinaDavis in aged makeup.
It's a different woman.
Anyway, so her daughter ismaking her go to this thing.
(09:46):
We don't know what it is.
We find out it is the opening ofthis new exhibit about the
All-American Girls BaseballLeague from the 1940s.
The elderly Gina Davis, who isnot Gina Davis, is Dottie
Hinson.
She sort of fades out, and wequickly see go into 1943 in
(10:07):
Oregon.
And the most of the movie, likeseven-eighths of the movie, is
this in the past.
So Gina Davis plays DottieHinson, and she's working on a
dairy, her family dairy inOregon.
Her younger sister, Kit, isplayed by Lori Peller.
They're both working in thedairy.
(10:28):
Lori Petty.
What did I say?
Peller.
Oh, Keller is the character'slast name.
Lori Petty plays Kit Keller.
Thank you.
And so that's Dottie's maidenname because.
Presumably.
Presumably, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So these two girls, actually,Dottie gets recruited for this
new all-girls league.
(10:50):
We see them playing baseball,and Dottie's a catcher.
Kit is a pitcher.
And we see like Kit strikes out.
Dottie's giving her advice.
They sort of argue with oneanother.
John Lovitz plays a scout forthis new league.
And he tries to recruit Dottie.
(11:11):
And she's like, uh, I don'tknow.
I mean, I'm married.
I don't really want to do that.
Kit really wants to go.
She really wants to play ball.
They're talking about the leagueis going to pay$75 a week.
They only make$30 a week at thedairy.
So Kit really wants to go.
And they say they're not goingto.
But then there's this fun scenewhere he's on the scout is on
(11:33):
the train and it's pulling awayfrom the station.
And the two women like run afterit and like toss their suitcases
on and like jump on the train.
They make one stop in another, Idon't, maybe Seattle, I don't
remember where, to look atanother girl.
It's Marla.
She is an amazing hitter, likereally incredible hitter.
She's can hit any pitch andshe's sending them there.
(11:56):
It's raining, so it's inside andshe's breaking windows and it's
really great.
And then they get a look at herand she's not so good looking.
In part because her shouldersare hunched and her hair's all
like just straight and she'slike very timid, which is I
think part of what makes her notattractive.
Because that actress is she'sfine looking.
She's not Gina Davis, but whois?
(12:17):
Yeah.
So the John Lovitz is like,yeah, we'll let you know.
And he's leaving.
When the two sisters realizethat what's happening, they put
their stuff down.
They're like, she's good.
She needs to have a chance totry out.
So we get this speech from thedad who's like, it's just her
and me.
Her mom died, and I raised herlike a boy.
It's my fault.
Don't punish her for that.
(12:39):
So anyway, he decides the scoutuh lets her try out.
So we get to Chicago, andthere's like hundreds of women,
or a hundred at least, dozensand dozens of women who are on
this baseball field.
This movie does montage really,really well.
So we see them try out, they'reall really good.
(13:00):
We have this, we meet MadonnaMay is her character's name, and
her best friend Doris, played byRosie O'Donnell, and they're
like real tough, like kind ofNew York-y kind of sense.
And they're, they kind ofantagonize Kit and Dottie such
that like Rosie O'Donnell likethrows a ball at them, and
Dottie like catches itbarehanded, and they're all
(13:22):
really impressed.
And Madonna has said, most ofy'all are gonna go home.
And after Dottie catches it,Madonna's like, well, most of
them are gonna go home.
So we see this great montage ofthem doing all these exercises
together and playing baseball.
And then the teams are announcedwith like sheets of paper, and
(13:44):
both of the sisters are on thesame team.
The Rockford Peaches.
There's a brief interlude with agirl who looks confused, and the
coach is like, Is your name onthe thing or not?
And another woman comes up andis like, Can you read, honey?
And she finds her name and shecan't read.
So that's why she was confused.
So she's also in.
Then they introduce the uniform,which is this dumb mini skirt.
(14:05):
And the women are like, Youcan't play baseball now.
What are you talking about?
Like, that's not.
And then we meet Mr.
Lowenstein, who works for Mr.
Harvey.
So Harvey is like Wrigley, hesells chocolate bars, but it's
meant to be like Wrigley becauseit's Harvey Field with the Ivy.
And so Harvey's one of theowners.
(14:26):
Lowenstein is actually likemanaging the league.
And he says to all of the womenwho have now been put on teams,
this is what this is a uniformyou wear with us.
That's it.
Because every woman on this, orI think he probably says girl in
this league is a lady.
And they have the finishingschool lessons that you
(14:47):
remember, and they have likebeauty consultations.
That's what you remember withthe what do you recommend night
games?
Because each girl is like, get ahaircut or give her some
lipstick or you know, work onher posture.
Like, yeah, exactly.
Make her have two eyebrowsinstead of just one.
Like that sort of like quickjudgment beauty stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
Yeah.
This league is because all themen are fighting the war, so
there's no baseball.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yes, thank you.
So we start the movie.
Well, we start the memory bit.
Part of it is overlain withnewsreels of news talking about
how some of the biggest stars inbaseball are enlisting.
It's during World War II.
And so And Dottie's husband iswell, we learn that later.
(15:32):
But yes, he is overseas.
He's fighting overseas.
So the team gels.
We meet Jimmy Dugan, Tom Hanks.
Mr.
Harvey gives him the gig.
He was a great baseball player,but he was a drunk.
And he blew out his knee.
But Mr.
Harvey tells us, I mean, tellsJimmy, but tells us, yeah, but
(15:54):
you blew out your knee fallingout of a hotel window.
It wasn't playing baseball.
The guy's kind of like a hotmess.
A hot mess.
So Harvey gives Dugan the job.
And Tom Hanks's Dugan likedoesn't want it.
Like Harvey makes it clear, likeyou just, every game you go out,
you wave your little hat, youmake the fans happy, and you get
(16:15):
your paycheck.
Okay.
And like Dugan even says, whydon't I just get an organ
grinder and do a little dancefor them?
And Harvey's like, if your kneecan take it, yes, do it.
Like, so it's very clear thatthis transaction is just about
having Dugan's name associatedwith it.
That's how he takes it.
So with the girls, the firstgame, they're in the locker room
(16:40):
and they haven't even met himyet and they're freaking out
because he's not there and thegame's about to start.
And then he shows up, and as youremember, and they don't have a
lineup.
They don't have a lineup.
They have nothing.
Right.
They have nothing.
They don't have a lineup.
And he's not there.
And he shows up and he's clearlydrunk and he makes a beeline for
the bathroom and starts peeinginto a urinal in the locker
(17:00):
room.
And it's like, and the girls areall like looking at each other
and kind of giggling.
And it's he's peeing for a verylong time.
Like so long that like Madonnagets a watch and starts, May is
the character's name and startstiming him.
And he just he's just a dick.
Like one of the girls has hisbaseball card that belongs to
her husband that he she wants toget him to sign.
And he rips it up.
(17:21):
He doesn't say anything toanyone.
So they make their own lineup.
So Dottie, Gina Davis'scharacter, effectively becomes
the manager.
He sleeps through most of thegames.
And we again montages.
Well, eventually one day he sortof wakes up.
She's Gina Davis is giving signsto the batter.
It happens to be Marla, who istheir strongest hitter.
(17:43):
Gina Davis, Dottie is givingMarla the sign to bunt.
And he's like, why would youbunt on our best hitter?
And so now it's a very funnyscene that I was stuck in my
head with Tom Hanks and GinaDavis standing next to each
other, both giving signs to thebatter, and the batter like
stepping in and out of the box,like not sure what to do.
From that moment, Dugan startsactually paying attention.
(18:07):
He starts actually managing, buthe's managing the way he was
managed.
So then we get this the scenewhere Evelyn missed the cutoff
man and he berates her until shecries.
And he's like, Are you crying?
And she's like, No, but she'sobviously crying.
That there's no crying inbaseball scene.
The umpire, the fur the homeplate umpire comes over, is
(18:28):
like, is there a problem, Mr.
Dugan?
And he says, you know, she'scrying.
Like, there's no crying inbaseball.
And the ump is like, Well,perhaps you berated her too
vehemently.
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
I didn't remember that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
And the ump turns around, like it's like a
pleasant enough exchange, butthe ump turns around and Dugan
says, Did anybody ever tell youyou look like a penis in a
little cap?
And so the ump ejects him, andthe team applauds that he's been
ejected because he's just helike slept through their games
for most of the season, and nowhe's like yelling at them.
(19:04):
So then we see sort of aredemption arc of him, in part
through his like conversationswith Dottie.
There's a scene where Maypoisons their, they have like a
chaperone, like like a denmother kind of a thing who
travels with them, and shepoisons her, puts something in
her dinner so she's likethrowing up so the girls can
(19:24):
sneak out and go to this little,like a speakeasy where they go
dancing, and which has thisamazing scene of Madonna swing
dancing.
It's really fun.
It's really fun.
In that scene, Marla ends up alittle drunk and on the stage
singing to a boy who she's gotthe hots for, Nelson, who she
(19:45):
ends up marrying.
And it's a little, I mean, it'sembarrassing.
Like Dottie come, Dottie had notgone with them to the speakeasy,
but finds out that Mr.
Lowenstein is coming and theyneed, they can't get caught
doing this.
So he shotty comes to thespeakeasy to like tell the
girls, come on, go home.
And she's like, What did you doto her?
What did you do to Marla?
And Madonna says, nothing.
(20:06):
We just gave her a dress and alot of liquor.
The movie continues, a lot moreplaying montages, a lot more
like softening on Jimmy, andhe's actually like helping them
win and they're winning andthey're doing great.
Kit and Dottie have a couple ofmoments of rivalry and friction,
so much so that at one point Kitsays, When you're here, it's
(20:29):
like I'm not here.
And Dottie's really upset bythis.
Like she really cares about hersister.
And so she says to Lowenstein,I'm she decides to quit to let
her sister have baseball becauseshe's married, she's gonna go
back to the dairy.
Lowenstein, meanwhile, the wareffort is going well overseas.
And so Harvey's like, I don'tneed this anymore because men's
(20:50):
baseball is still around.
Lowenstein is trying to fight tokeep the league.
So when Dottie says she's gonnaquit, he's freaking out a little
bit because she's the mostpopular player.
And she says, Well, I can't,like Kit and I can't be
together, trade me or something.
Just make a decision quicklybecause I'm leaving tomorrow.
Well, Lowenstein trades Kit, andthat causes a big falling out
(21:11):
between them.
And it sets up the sort ofclimax of the movie where the
world series of this league isbetween the Peaches, where
Dottie still is the catcher, andthe racing, I can't remember the
name of the team, but adifferent team where Kit has
been traded.
And so, meanwhile, Bob, Dottie'shusband, has come home from war.
(21:36):
He got injured.
He's gonna be fine, but he'sbeen discharged because of his
injury.
So she's gonna quit and go home.
And there's this scene whereJimmy Dugan, the manager, Tom
Hanks' character, is like, youcan't just quit baseball.
Like, you love baseball.
You can't just quit baseball.
And she's like, Well, watch me.
But then she shows up for thefinal game of the World Series
because they were driving backto Oregon from the East Coast.
(22:00):
And you know, they got as far asI don't remember what town, and
she turned around because shereally wanted to play.
So the final game, it's tiedthree and three.
The final, the seventh game ofthe series, it's the bottom of
the knife.
Kit is the base runner, andDottie is the catcher.
Kit knocks Dottie over andDottie drops the ball.
And now we have seen Dottie holdon to the ball before in that
(22:25):
exact circumstance, like morethan once.
So there's always a question ofwhether she actually did it on
purpose or not to give hersister the win.
And then Kit is the star of the,you know, she's the MVP because
she like brought in the win,like they the racing team wins
the game.
The fans in the stands areshouting, Kit, Kit, Kit, and we
see a little smile on GinaDavis's face.
(22:46):
So then we cut back to presentday 1992 and the or whatever it
is in the baseball hall of fame.
And we see Dottie, now olderDottie, like remeeting all of
these, the women that were onthe team.
We find that some of them diedand like whatever.
And they're still like kickingass.
We see a lot of footage of themplaying baseball as their older
(23:06):
selves.
And we also see a little bit inthe actual exhibit where we see
pictures from the movie we'vejust seen as historical photos.
And then that re reunion scenethat you remember of Dottie who
is by herself and Kit who haslike a whole passel of her
family, like her kids andgrandkids with her, and the
sisters like hug and with justgenuine affection.
(23:30):
There's a bunch of other stuffthat I forgot.
It doesn't really matter.
We'll get into it.
That's the like the basic courseof the movie.
Like they started a leaguebecause men were at war.
The women were really good.
And at first people like mockedthem, but then they really got
into it.
And then the men were going tocome home, so they were going to
cancel the league, but theymanaged to save it.
(23:51):
And there's lots of love.
That's sort of the basic gist ofit.
The thing that doesn't get toldis the league only lasted till
1954.
What does get said explicitly,like Lowenstein's like really
upset when Harvey says he'sgoing to cancel the league
because he doesn't need themanymore because we have men's
baseball.
(24:12):
And Lowenstein's like, I guessthat's what's going to happen in
the factories too.
Sorry, Rosie, turn in yourrivets, go back to the kitchen.
And Harvey's like, well, whatare we going to do?
Is send the men coming back fromwar back to the kitchen?
Like it acknowledges thistension, but doesn't actually
(24:32):
like not that it could solve itbecause it's historical, but it
doesn't even offer I don't know.
I found it unsatisfying to sortof talk about it, but not like
give us anything.
Like, yeah, basically they'reexpected to go back into the
kitchen.
And I found that especiallybecause of all of the benefits
(24:54):
that we see for these women.
I mean, some of them are kind ofgross, like Marlis the first to
get married, like she justneeded a dress and some liquor,
and now she's like, A-okay.
Like that's a little bit gross.
But there are other things, likeRosie O'there's this one scene
on the bus with RosieO'Donnell's character, Doris,
where I don't remember who whatother player she's talking to,
(25:15):
but they're looking at a pictureof Doris's boyfriend.
The other person, I think maybeit's Kit.
And she's like, Is it picture alittle out of focus?
And Doris is like, nah, that'sjust how he looks.
And Kit's like, well, looksaren't everything.
And Doris is like, yeah, whatmatters is that he's stupid and
he treats me bad.
And Kit's like, well, then whyare you with him?
And Doris is like, well, I mean,he's the only guy who ever like
(25:37):
liked me because I was always soweird because I was like good at
baseball and stuff.
But then she like looks aroundat the bus and she's like, but
look, there's a lot of us andlike we're great.
I don't need this.
And she like rips up his pictureand says, bye-bye, Charlie, and
like puts it out the bus window.
So we see it pretty explicitly,the way that baseball, that this
experience for these women haschanged the course of their
(26:00):
lives in positive ways.
And we're allowed to have a kindof a happy ending.
But what we aren't told at allis like it was temporary.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
I'd love to bring in something that's kind of
topical.
I don't know if this is anythingthat you've been paying any
attention to.
And just listeners, we wererecording this on February 27th.
So I don't know if you saw themen's Olympic hockey team.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
Yes, I did.
The women's team apparently wereinvited as an afterthought to
the White House and declined andwent to Vegas with Flava Flav
instead.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Well, and we're also invited by uh Stanley Tucci to
the case.
Stanley Tucci.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
So, but specifically, what Iwant to talk about is how in the
phone call in the locker room,when our current president
called the team and called themen's team or the women's team?
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
The phone call.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Oh no.
Oh, this is the part that I thatis important and relates to the
Wrigley character.
Harvey, you said Harvey issaying what the president said
to the men's hockey team was,oh, I suppose I have to call and
invite the women's team too,huh?
As a joke.
And all of the men's teamlaughed because, like, we don't
(27:24):
really need them.
What are we going to send themen home to cook and clean while
the women keep the jobs in thefactory?
Right.
To your point about how, like,how this is so beneficial to
women, the captain of thewomen's team that they were
doing some sort of pressconference, and they asked her
about this situation.
And one of the things she saidwas, I'm here answering
(27:47):
questions about someone else'sbehavior, and that is not my
responsibility.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I feel like that is the kindof confidence you get by being
an athlete and being the captainof a Olympic, a gold-winning
Olympic team.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Right, right.
I think what this topical thingpoints to is that from the very
beginning of this film, from thevery beginning of like Jimmy
Dugan, Tom Hanks' characters'interaction with them, he keeps
talking about girls and ballplayers as a mutually exclusive
list, right?
It's a binary.
There are girls and there areball players.
(28:25):
You all are not ballplayers.
And by the end of the film, bythe end of his experience with
them, like he knows they areball players.
He speaks to Dottie as a fellowball player who whom he
respects.
And in fact, we learned thatHarvey offered him a job
coaching AA men's, and hedeclined to continue coaching
(28:47):
the women's team.
So the film shows us that binarybreaking down.
But what this topical momentreminds us is that that
redemption arc may have happenedfor this character, but it
didn't happen for our country.
Not for happened for our actualculture, not at writ large.
(29:07):
That's, I think, what I wasreacting to when my postcard
about feminism is that, and evenin my like dissatisfaction with
naming the problem, is that itjust feels Sisophean, is the
word that I used earlier.
And that is in fact how itfeels, even within this movie,
(29:29):
that does, in many ways, a greatjob.
I mean, like Alison Bechtel hasnothing to complain about in
this movie, right?
Like and yet, like the deck isstacked so deep against these
characters that it's, I mean,it's just like like woven into
the fabric of society.
I did read, I skimmed oneactually academic paper that
(29:50):
talked about when you have aqualifier in front of the word
athlete, whether it's female orgay, homosexual, like any
version of that, that it suddenthat that person suddenly
becomes a threat because theyare counter to sort of what
athleticism means to thisculture.
(30:13):
And I think that's right.
And I think that's too probablywhy the 92 film, all the women
were straight.
Oh, yeah.
As far as we knew, because likemaking them female and gay was
just too much for 1992, eventhough it is likely that at
least some of the women in thatleague in the 40s and 50s were
(30:36):
lesbians.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Yeah.
The fact that that they are athreat explains why Harvey was
like, I don't need them anymore.
When you would think acapitalist would be like, double
the money.
unknown (30:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Which is exactly what Lowenstein says.
Loinstein says, You told me tomake it make money, it's making
money.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
Yeah.
And so, like, there is no reasonwhy he couldn't have both.
Right.
Right.
Like, honestly, there that thatthat it is mind-boggling that a
money-grubbing capitalistwouldn't want to have a women's
league and a men's league thatare not competing with each
(31:18):
other because they are not.
You could sell double thetickets, you could sell double
the concessions, you could selldouble the merchandise.
Right.
And he is convinced, at leasttemporarily.
SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
So, but I think that the thing, too, that then the
logical corollary for the nextsegue in this conversation is
then to talk about whatmasculinity means within this
culture, within this worldviewthat finds a female athlete to
be a threat.
And I think we see that in Dugana bit.
So he is he's a drunk.
(31:50):
He's not fighting in the war.
And we have a conversation aboutthat.
He and Dottie talk about it onone of the many bus rides that
we see, where he's not fightingin the war because his knee is
bone on bone.
There's no cartilage in hisknee, he says.
And then he says, But you don'treally need your knee to shoot
Nazis, do you?
You just need this.
And he like wiggles his triggerfinger.
He says, I can do this.
(32:12):
There's definitely a sense thathe feels emasculated by not
fighting in the war effort,which one I think is meant to
believe that's at least part ofwhy he continues drinking.
He also finds it deeplyemasculating to have been
assigned this or to have beengiven this job.
I mean, I say assigned as if hehad no choice.
He has, he could have said no,but he needed the money.
So, but he feels emasculated inthis gig of managing a women's
(32:37):
team of girls who are not ballplayers, remember.
And he gets there.
But from the beginning, theassumption is that if these
women can be ball players andhe's a ball player, like what
does that mean?
What does that mean about who heis?
Like that is clearly like whatis going on in the background
(32:58):
around his masculinity.
The movie shows us that in orderto make this okay, a couple of
things happen.
One is that the women have toprove themselves.
So from their very first game,there's a heckler who is like
standing on the dugout and he'slike, look at me, I'm and he's
like doing this reallyobnoxious, like mocking, and
(33:19):
it's loud and obnoxious.
And one of the women throws aball at him and like clocks him
and knocks him down, and likethe whole everybody laughs at
him.
And her teammates kind of lookat her and she's like, What?
It slipped.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
Oops, I'm just a girl.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
So the other moment of sort of proving is like John
Lovitz's scout does not wantkit, and he's shaking her hand
like good luck, and he like putshis other hand on her bicep and
like he starts like feeling hermuscle up and down, which is a
weird sort of twist on unwantedcontact.
And he's like, Oh, you can tryout.
(34:00):
Like when he feels how strongshe is.
So I put both of those in thesame category of these women
needing to like prove themselvesin the masculine way.
Like prove themselves that theyare up to snuff in the things
that traditionally fall on themasculine column, i.e., the
sports and the strength.
(34:23):
There are also ways that themovie makes plain that they are
forced to perform femininity.
So that like the skirts.
The skirts and also thefinishing.
And we get so they do all thefinishing school stuff.
But what comes out of that isthis, like these news stories
about like how, you know, Bettyis a great center fielder, but
(34:49):
she also makes a great cup ofcoffee.
And then we see like this stagedthing where she's like pouring
coffee from this beautifulcarafe thing for men on the
field.
And then like there's one pointwhere there's not a lot of
crowd, and Loenstein tells thegirls there's a reporter and a
photographer from Time magazinein the stands.
(35:11):
And could they give it a littleextra?
Because we he's trying to likedrum up more interest in the
league.
And so at one point, Dottie haslike there's a pop-up foul that
she's the catcher remember.
So she's gonna get under iteasily.
Like we hear the announcer inthe stadium saying that.
So we know that even if we'renot baseball people, she catches
(35:32):
a glimpse of the bored reporterand photographer.
So she does a split while shecatches it, which ends up on the
cover of Time magazine.
So these women, because they area threat, are forced to prove
themselves in the masculinecategory of strengths and
(35:52):
ashleticism, but also performfemininity like hyper femininity
or novel femininity in like thecoffee pouring or the splits.
Which I think is an accuraterepresentation of what happens
(36:13):
when someone who has thatqualifier in front of the word,
female or gay or whatever it is,black, that is not what the
broader culture is expecting,have to perform in both
categories, like more than andcredential themselves more than.
(36:34):
I think it's accurate.
That doesn't make it lessdepressing.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
For me to like really wrap my minds around it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
And that's part of what is why Marla's kind of a
sour spot in the movie, becauseshe can't just be an athlete.
She and she's going to strugglewith performing femininity as
the character is written and asthe actress portrays her, which
is just like that's infuriatingwhen she is a gifted baseball
(37:09):
player.
Right.
Whereas like in a men's league,a male athlete who was similarly
gifted would have been likefirst draft pick.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
Similarly gifted and similarly like socially inept,
like socially awkward.
Exactly.
Wouldn't matter.
It wouldn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Same player change gender.
Yeah, wouldn't matter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's infuriating and like andhasn't changed.
Right.
I'm just thinking of the factthat you and I recently took a
meeting with someone who calledus girls.
unknown (37:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
In his defense, the signature on my email does say
podcaster at Guy Girls Mediawith Emily Guybergen.
So perhaps he was thinking ofthat.
Perhaps.
Probably not though.
SPEAKER_00 (37:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I I the feeling the need toperform femininity, especially
as an athlete.
It's part of what I feel likethe friction between Dottie and
(38:21):
Kit is about, in some ways.
Or at least that's how Iremember reading it.
In that it felt like Kit in alot of ways felt like she was
always running behind her bigsister.
Yes, definitely.
And not just about baseball,about everything.
Yes.
Including the fact that her bigsister was Gina Davis and Gina
(38:43):
Davis is Gina Davis.
Now that's not to say that LoriPetty isn't absolutely gorgeous.
SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
No, but like Petty is cute.
At least in the way that she'sdressed and whatever and makeup
and hair in this film.
Like Kit is cute.
And Dottie is knockout drop deadgorgeous.
Kit is cute.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
And so like I know part of where that friction
between the sisters is, thesense that, like in every arena,
like performative feministfeminism, um feminine
performative femininity,baseball, dating because Dottie
has Bob while she's married.
(39:24):
All of these things, it feelslike Dottie is ahead.
Yeah.
unknown (39:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Which is why Kit says, when you're here, it's
like I'm not here.
Exactly.
And so that performativefemininity is not an arena most
women, I don't think, want toplay in.
I don't know.
I mean, I wouldn't say most.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
I think some women dig it.
I mean, girly girls are like it.
That's that's true.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
That's true.
It's the required aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
I think when one does it because one enjoys it,
that's fine.
True.
It's when it's required in orderto do something else that's
completely unrelated, that isnot fine.
Right.
Like even Tyra Banks, I wouldexpect, would resent like
needing to be Tyra Banks inorder to go to the gym.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
These women resented having to wear a skirt to play
baseball.
Right.
Yeah.
Even like Betty, who was verymuch a girly girl.
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Many of the girls were very much girly girls.
Yeah.
But like I mean, there's areason we see at one point one
of them slides feet first at onepoint.
And then later we see her lyingout on the bench with like a
cold pack on her thigh and abruise, you know, bigger than
your head from where she slidbare flesh against the dirt.
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Exactly.
So yeah, I I think that this isnot a critique of the film,
right?
Like I'm not mad at PennyMarshall or at any of the
writers.
Like I'm mad at the UnitedStates of America and our
culture in 1990, in 1943, and in1992, and in 2026.
(41:02):
Like I'm mad at our culture thatwe're still so ingrained in this
unexamined sense of what isnormal.
I'm putting quotes around thatword and making it male and
white and straight so thatpeople who don't fit one or more
(41:26):
of those categories have allthis extra work to do in order
to just play baseball or promotea podcast or you know, like be
celebrated.
Or be celebrated for winning afucking gold medal.
SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
So, you know, I think that's an important thing
to note.
Like, this film is about thisproject, this podcast is about a
film, but I'm not actually likecritiquing the film.
I think the film portraysaccurately what I'm critiquing
in our culture.
It's worth noting that JimmyDugan is a strong representative
(42:07):
of what's wrong with theculture.
And through proximity, he seeshis way past it.
I think that's also an accurateportrayal of how this works.
Right.
Like proximity is the number onefactor in overcoming biases,
right?
So I think that's also anaccurate portrayal.
(42:31):
So I would like to talk brieflyin the main episode, and then
there's some stuff I'll bring upin the shit we forgot to say
about the sister dynamic.
Since you talked about that asone of the things that, you
know, that was important to you.
I think from the beginning, wesee there is a rivalry between
them.
Like, Kit, while they're stillin the dairy, Kit's like, you
can't even let me walk ahead ofyou.
(42:53):
And Dottie's like, Yes, I can,but she clearly can't because
they're walking and like Dottiekeeps going faster.
And so they're like racing eachother, like flat out running.
Yeah.
And Dottie wins.
So because she's Gina Davis'slegs.
Right.
That's actually exactly likethat's exactly what Kit says.
She says it's not fair, yourlegs are longer.
(43:14):
But we also do see like Dottiecares about Kit and Kit's
well-being.
Like both are true, which Ithink is real.
And I also think there's adegree to which like the rivalry
feels like trite to me, thesibling rivalry, especially in
the athletics.
(43:34):
And I'm not an expert in siblingrivalry.
I only know my own experience,but I cannot imagine like being
in like any kind of situation,even where there was competition
between us, where I didn't havejust like joy and pride in your
(43:55):
accomplishments.
Right.
Like I mean, even if there's amoment of Like, oh, I wish I had
that too.
It wouldn't be to like take youdown, or even to like prove my
anything.
And I want to believe, Ibelieve, that there are more
sisters like us than like that.
(44:16):
But I think Hollywood likes thatstory of that rivalry.
And so sometimes it getsoverlain even where it doesn't
belong.
And I think that these twosisters is two fictional sisters
based on real life people, Idon't think it needed it.
(44:37):
Like, or at least not to thedegree that it was given.
I mean, like, there's somethingnice as a viewer in not knowing
for sure if Dottie let the ballgo or if she genuinely had it
knocked out of her hand.
There is something nice in that.
But I think there are othermoments of where Dottie takes
(44:58):
the bait, so to speak, that Idon't think were necessary.
That I think we could have seena little bit more just, I don't
know, sibling revelry, as youand I like to say.
And I would love to seeHollywood do that a little more.
Like, let there be like there,this is a loving relationship,
(45:20):
but it's got this thorn in it,such that they haven't seen each
other in years and they'redelighted to see one another.
But I think that Hollywood coulddo a better job of giving us
some models of what it lookslike to like, of course, I mean,
you've known me longer thananyone in the world.
And so, of course, there areways that you can push my
buttons that no one else could.
(45:42):
And also, you've known me longerthan anyone in the world.
And so we love each other morethan the other people in our
life.
Like, I just, I don't know.
I'm not even sure where I'mgoing with this, but I do have a
little bit of a bone to pickthat I think it's a little the
rivalry itself is a littleexaggerated, I believe.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
The only thing I'll push back against that is that
so in 1943, they're in theirlike early 20s.
Is that how old they're supposedto be?
I think Dottie's meant to bemaybe like mid-20s and like
early 20s.
So they would have been born inlike the teens.
Yeah.
So just the difference inparenting between then and when
(46:24):
you and I were born, I thinkmakes a huge difference in how
siblings would relate to eachother, how rivalries would
Maybe.
SPEAKER_01 (46:34):
Maybe.
But I think that you're likegiving like a very situational
like reason for these particularcharacters.
And I'm saying It's Hollywood asa whole.
Like the trope of the likesisterly like rivalry.
SPEAKER_00 (46:49):
The reason I bring that up is just that I'm
thinking that people in thewriter's room might have been
thinking about their own mothersand aunts who would have been
about that age.
Yeah, maybe.
But you might be right.
And I I agree, like one of myfavorite books that I read
recently was Uprooted by NaomiNovik.
And part of the reason why Iloved it was that it had two
young women best friends.
(47:10):
It was a realistic relationshipbetween them where there was
some of that friction that youcan have with a best friend as
an older teen.
That friction was just a tinypart of it.
Most of it was just absolutelove for each other and
willingness to do anything foreach other.
And it was so rare.
It's so rare to see that.
(47:30):
Yeah.
So I hear you.
I definitely hear you.
And then the fact that like youand I both were like, but
they're sisters.
Yeah.
What the f the PTF, man?
Yeah.
Like years?
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not realistic.
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
I have a little bit more to say.
So, listeners, if you like whatwe're doing here and if you want
to make sure we can keep doingthis content, we would love it
if you would have head over toour Patreon and give us a couple
bucks every month.
And then you get to see the shitwe forgot to say.
So just a little plug before Iwrap up.
(48:06):
So, League of Their Own, the 92film, not the new reboot on
Netflix.
This film, the first thing, thefirst place I started was damn,
the casting was good.
Like, really, really good.
Not just the woman who playsolder Dottie and the woman who
plays older Kit, who seriouslylook like those two actresses in
in age makeup, but also likeMadonna and Rosie O'Donnell.
(48:30):
So believable.
Like each of these, like thecasting was really, really good.
So that's sort of where Istarted.
We spent a lot of time talkingabout this film, not critiquing
the film, but the way the filmsort of lays bare a truth about
our culture, wherein, inparticular in this film, we're
talking about athletes.
(48:50):
The word athlete is masculine,apparently.
And so when we are talking aboutanything with a qualifier before
that word, that person, in thiscase, we're talking about white
women, but in any case, in anyqualifier to that word, they end
up needing to perform both thecoded masculine athleticism
(49:11):
very, very well, but also thecoded, whatever their other
thing is, like in this case,women, their femininity, they
are forced to overperform theirfemininity in order to stay in
the role of athlete, which isreally effed up.
And I, it's getting me agitated,honestly.
(49:32):
Especially because this movieshows us how this, in this case,
baseball, but whatever thisthing is that lights a person up
when they get to do it withother people for whom it also
lights them up, it changes thecourse of their life.
We see women in this filmcharacters who were misfits at
(49:54):
home and find belonging on thisteam.
They find belonging on this teamin ways that enhance their
confidence.
And one can only imagine theirmental health and well-being for
the rest of their lives.
And so the fact that they haveto like jump through these hoops
in order to have it, it's just,it's an undercurrent of
(50:15):
melancholy for me in this film,because what the film gives us a
happy ending-ish, but what itdoesn't tell us is that the
league only lasted for, youknow, another 10 years or so.
And then it just, it justdisbanded.
Because there's stuff aboutfemininity, there's also stuff
about masculinity in this film,mainly through the person of
(50:37):
Jimmy Dugan, played by TomHanks, who has the binary of
girls and ball players, as ifthose two things are mutually
exclusive when he starts thefilm, but by the end, he
respects not just Dottie, butall of his players as ball
players and becomes a bettercoach as well.
(50:59):
We see him, the woman he madecry, we see him later tell
Evelyn she's still missing thecutoff man and he wants her to
work on that before next season.
And he's like shaking with theeffort to say it in that way.
But he does, and she's doesn'tcry.
So let me see.
I did I mentioned briefly, andyou talked about a little bit
(51:20):
too, the character of Marla, whois presented to us as not pretty
from the beginning, and likewhat a double standard that is,
since she's female and not maleathlete, that a different if she
had been more a man, she wouldhave been her dad even says that
he'd be in New York becauseshe'd be on playing for the
Yankees or something.
And the way that the characterstreat her is a problem.
(51:43):
The way the film treats her alsofeels like a sour spot because
once she finally like gets alittle bit of femininity, then
you know, she gets married andnow she's a fulfilled human
being.
And and that feels kind ofgross.
That's what the film tells us ittakes for her to be a fulfilled
human being.
SPEAKER_00 (51:59):
My my mic was muted, so you couldn't hear my eye
roll, but I think it was such abig one that it was audible.
SPEAKER_01 (52:08):
We talked a bit about women as being sort of
disposable and like not actuallyimportant, which is all wrapped
up in our critique of theculture, which is still the same
because as you pointed out,we've just seen almost the exact
same thing happen with the goldmedal Olympic win, the Olympic
gold medal winning ice hockeyteam from the United States who
(52:33):
were invited to the White Houseas an afterthought because they
happen to be women.
So good for Clava Flav andStanley Tucci for making up for
that.
Thank you to those, those twoallies.
Okay, and the last thing that wetalked about, which I think is
gonna remain an open questionfor me, is the rivalry between
these two sisters.
Like, how this is a challenge toHollywood and to writers.
(52:57):
Like, how do we portray the realfriction that happens between
sisters because they know eachother so well without turning it
into a flat sort of rivalry andchip on the shoulder?
Because it's not flat.
That's the thing that I'm thatis bothering me.
It was sort of flattened into achip on his shoulder, and kit
(53:18):
wasn't okay until Kit sort ofliterally beat Dottie in
something.
And that feels too flat.
So what are you bringing me nextweek?
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Next week, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on
the Muppets Take Manhattan.
I think it's my first time I getto do a Muppets.
Oh, I can't wait.
I am very excited.
SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com