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We must have a wawwy. You know, a large gathering of mice for a reason.
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie returns to one of the classic movies of the animation storytelling boom of the 1980s: An American Tail. Animated by Don Bluth, the film follows young Fievel Mousekewitz, a Russian mouse immigrating to America to escape the pogroms (perpetrated by Cossack cats and humans in this world) who is separated from the rest of his family. But Fievel is smart, curious, and able to prevail through the power of storytelling--specifically because he recalls the story of Rapunzel (the Mouse with Really Long Hair) and the Mouse of Minsk (a golem allegory).
The film offers some interesting cultural commentary about populist politicians and the importance of the immigrant experience in American history, but Tracie points out that the newly arrived mice seem somewhat insular rather than integrating into American culture--although that is true to the lived reality of immigrants in the late 19th century. And while Fievel and his family are Jewish, it's also interesting from a storytelling perspective that cats represent oppressors in general (including the Mafia, gangs, and criminals) rather than anti-semitic oppressors in particular. Also, where are all the dogs?
If you are somewhere out there, beneath the pale moonlight--throw on your earbuds and take a listen to this episode!
Tags
deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, storytelling, animation, pop culture, cultural commentary, movies, film, analyzing film tropes, classic movies, film analysis, don bluth, steven spielberg, gen x childhood, gen x nostalgia, movie reviews, 80s and 90s movies, madeline kahn, dom deluise, somewhere out there
Deep Thoughts Episodes mentioned in this episode:
Avalon: Deep Thoughts About Family, Money Psychology, and Waiting to Cut the Turkey
Airplane!: Deep Thoughts About Comedy That Questions Everything--Except a Woman as a Prize
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
So there's like there are these calls from the
(00:03):
top and the bottom of the classhierarchy to organize.
And then Fival is the one whoactually brings the mechanism
for the organizing from storiesthat he heard.
So the kind of underlying lessonis about organizing, but it's
also about imagination and thepower of story.
(00:26):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
(00:49):
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll betalking about the 1986 animated
film An American Tale with mysister, Emily Guy Birken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
And listener, before I dive inwith Emily, actually I'm going
(01:09):
to ask you a favor.
If you have not already, pleasenavigate to the top of the show
and follow in whatever you'relistening to.
On Apple Podcasts, it's a plussign.
On Spotify, it's actually abutton that says follow.
That will actually really helpus out and cost you nothing.
Thanks so much.
Okay, I know you saw this film,but I have a feeling it was a
(01:30):
long time ago.
So what's in your head about anAmerican tale?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
So I can remember what Fival looks like.
Kind of.
I remember he's got kind of bigears, and I remember he's
wearing a cap.
I remember somewhere out there,I could probably sing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's it.
Okay.
I remember there's a sequelcalled Five Goes West.
And I remember even as a childbeing like, no, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_03 (01:56):
There are multiple sequels.
We will not be talking about anyof them.
We are just talking about theoriginal American Tales.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
I remember really loving it.
And that that's like I dorecall, I'm sure I was told
this.
I know I didn't get this on myown, but I recall that this film
was like mirrored the immigrantexperience for Jews.
SPEAKER_03 (02:24):
You might have been able to figure it out.
I mean, you were really littlewhen we when we were watching
it, but it'll become clear whyin a moment.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
And then I it's most like that's about it.
That's really like I rememberFivel singing the song, and that
that's kind of it.
That's like it's you'vementioned before that I really
have a good memory for movies.
This one, it's in there, it'slike it's pleasant, and that's
about it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
Yeah, that's how I usually am.
I mean, you were seven when thisone was released.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
So and this it was not one we had on VHS and
watched over.
SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
No, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
I don't think so either.
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
Yeah.
Tell me why why we're talkingabout this today.
Well, it's funny because when wedid what I did land before time,
I was like, oh, I should havedone an American Tale because it
was like the obvious one for us,since it was like this Jewish
story.
It actually is later than LandBefore Time was first.
So chronologically it made sensethat I did Land Before Time.
And I saw Land Before Time a lotmore because the some kids I
(03:22):
babysat for watched it onrepeat.
But American Tale we sawcontemporaneously, and so it's
in there.
I've been thinking about itsince I did our episode about
Land Before Time, which we'lllink to in the show notes in
case you haven't listened to it.
So that's why it's been on mymind right now.
And it actually, in some ways,is timely to be thinking and
(03:42):
talking about immigrants rightnow, which is not intentionally
why I did it right now, but weare gonna end up talking about
that a bit.
So there's not a ton at stakefor me, like you.
I remember it fondly, but it'snot a huge amount at stake, but
it was one of the ones where Iwas like, oh, Don Bluth, I
should have done the Jewish one.
(04:02):
So is not Don Bluth Jewish?
I don't know the answer to that.
Steven Spielberg was the yes,actually, I think Don Bluth was.
Spielberg was the producer forthis, and he brought it to
Bluth.
And apparently Bluth was like, Ican't get away from mice because
he had also done Mrs.
Frisbee.
Mrs.
Frisbee and the Rats into ofthem.
(04:23):
That was Bluth, and he also didThe Rescuers, which is mice.
So, but I believe Fival wasBluth's grandfather's name,
though it may have beenSpielberg's grandfather's name.
I could be wrong about that.
Okay.
But but the name like came fromone of the two key men who were
involved in creating this fromtheir family.
(04:44):
So it was a personal story forSpielberg, and I think maybe
Bluth as well.
So that's why we're talkingabout it.
Let me give you a few postcardsfrom the destination before I
remind you of what happens inthis film.
So I do I want to talk aboutsort of the immigrant story and
specifically the Jewishimmigrant story, but not
exclusively, because it's notlike Fivel and his family are
(05:07):
Jewish, but we meet many micewho are immigrants from all
over.
And while talking about theimmigrant story as an American
story, I want to sort of unpackwhat I think the movie makers
were going for and askourselves, did they succeed?
I want to look at the way thatanimals are used as metaphors
(05:27):
here.
As the movie started for myrewatch, I was thinking, like,
oh, is this like ArtSpiegelman's mouse, where the
mice will be Jews and then thesort of powerful anti-Semites
are other animals.
But no, that's not the casebecause we meet mice from Italy
(05:47):
and from Ireland who are clearlynot Jewish, who also had cat
oppressors.
So I'll get into that.
I want to talk about that alittle bit though, with the
animals as metaphors and thedifference of this version
versus Spiegelman.
I want to talk about theimportance of story within
story.
Fivel succeeds in many waysbecause of the stories he's got
(06:10):
in his head.
And that's really interesting, Ithink, in this kind of
storytelling for children.
I want to talk about the comedyin this film.
Madeline Kahn and Dom Deloiseplay two characters, a mouse and
a cat, respectively.
And they are hilarious and like,in many ways, in my opinion,
make the movie.
Like if you took their parts outor changed the actors, I don't
(06:32):
know if it would have succeededthe way that it did.
And I want to unpack a littlebit like, what does that say
about the film and its merits?
If so much rides on these twoperformances.
We also learn there's like a badguy who's a rat, and it turns
out he's not a rat.
He's a cat pretending to be arat.
And we learn this at the end.
(06:54):
And I want to unpack that alittle bit, especially after our
earlier conversation about likethe earlier postcard I sent
about metaphor, the metaphor ofthe animals.
And then finally, we'll talk alittle bit about very briefly
about gender representation anda little about sexual
orientation.
I think.
I think that Dom Delaware'scharacter, Tiger, is coded as
gay.
(07:14):
Although in a future movie, theyput the kibosh on that because
apparently Tiger ends up withMiss Kitty.
I did not re-watch just what theinterwebs told me.
So let me try to remind you ofthe story.
I made some notes for myself.
It's been, I watched it.
We were supposed to record acouple days ago and then we had
to postpone.
(07:34):
So it's been about a week sinceI re-watched it.
So I'm I'm gonna sort of talkabout the scenes that matter to
my analysis.
I'm not gonna try and give likea full chronology.
The movie opens.
This is not a sort ofreplacement, like a zootopia
where there are no humans.
(07:54):
This is a human world where micealso live.
So the camera, I'm puttingquotes around that, first pans
over the home of theMoskowitzes, human beings who
live in Tchotska, Russia, whichis now part of Ukraine.
It's meant to be the 1880s.
And then the camera pans down toa little mouse hole over which
(08:15):
the name is the Mauskowitzes.
So the Mauskowitzes live in theMoskowitzes home.
And it's Hanukkah.
We know it's Hanukkah becausethey say happy Hanukkah.
And which is why I think maybeyou could have picked up one
switch.
Even when you were seven.
unknown (08:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
So they say happy Hanukkah, and then Fivel's like,
what about gifts?
And there are three kids.
There's the older sister, hername is Tanya, and then Fivel,
and then there's a babe in arms,like a little tiny baby, whose
name we don't get.
And Papa plays the violin.
This is important.
Plot point for later.
We get the gifts.
So Tanya gets a babushka, whichis like a headscarf, which would
(08:55):
not have been called that byYiddish speakers in the 1880s.
But hey, they're micecelebrating Hanukkah.
And so I'm gonna just let thatfly.
It's a 1986 cartoon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just gonna let that fly.
Also, gift giving for Hanukkahwas not a thing.
It's not a thing in the 1880s.
Yeah.
Especially not in Europe or inthe Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
What would be the Ukraine?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
Yeah.
So again, gonna let it passbecause it was made for 1986
Americans.
But I had to mention it.
But I had to mention it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
Sources and triceratops didn't live at the
same time.
SPEAKER_03 (09:27):
I just had to mention it.
Okay.
All right.
Their Hanukkah celebration getsinterrupted by like shouts and
screams from outside.
It is a pogrom, and the Cossackshave come and they are like
killing people and torturing thevillage.
And the human Cossacks bringwith them like saliva dripping
fang Cossack cats.
(09:50):
So that's like the first sceneof the movie.
So the Moskowitzes, no, excuseme, the Mauskowitzes.
I don't know what happens to theMoskowitzes, but the
Mauskowitzes decide to emigrate.
So we see them getting on a boatin Hamburg, Germany, with a
whole bunch of other mice.
They're like walking up the ropeas the humans are walking up the
gangway.
(10:11):
So on the voyage, we see Fivelfrom the very beginning from the
Cossacks, we see him as likevery curious and like this sort
of child.
I mean, it's not childlikebecause he's a child, but the a
child's wonder and kind ofcuriosity.
(10:31):
He asks Papa to tell the storyabout the mouse of Minsk, which
is this fictional that I don'tthink is real, but like this
giant mouse that was huge, likeas big as a tree, and like
protected the normal size micefrom cats in Minsk.
We also learn, sort of in andaside, that Rapunzel is a story
that they tell because he asksabout the mouse with the really
(10:53):
long hair that people can climbup.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Is the mouse of Minsk supposed to be like a
golem story?
SPEAKER_03 (10:58):
Maybe.
Okay.
Maybe, but it's like really big.
Okay.
I mean, so like I mean the golemis meant to be large, but I
don't know that he's meant to belike bigger than a house.
Because like proportionally.
But yes, it's a similar sort ofstory to the golem, yes.
And so on the boat, we see Fivalcontinuing to have that sort of
curiosity.
(11:19):
We meet other mice who aretalking about why they're
immigrating.
So there's an Italian mice whotalks about losing his mama Mia
to the Don cat, who presumablywas a mafioso.
They were Catholic because hesays the only thing we found of
her was a rosary.
And then we meet an Irish mousewho lost his girlfriend to a cat
(11:39):
who was just some sort ofmurderer, who all he was left
with was her tail to bury her.
So we, and then we get the songThere Are No Cats in America,
which you might remember nowthat I've said it or not.
I don't.
They well they sing this songabout how there are no cats in
America and the streets arelined with cheese.
Okay.
Yeah.
That happens on the boat.
(12:00):
Because of a huge storm andFival's natural curiosity, he
gets like swept off the boat,and his family believe him dead.
So they make it to CastleGarden, and there's this sad
moment where the immigrationofficer is like, How many are
you?
And he says, Five, and he says,Oh, I mean four, like Papa
remembering that Five's gone.
(12:21):
But Fival makes it.
He like ends up in a bottle andwashes up basically on Statue of
Liberty Islands, and this Frenchpigeon, Henri, played by Chris
or voiced by ChristopherPlummer, like welcomes him,
like, oh, my little immigrant,and like tells him all about the
statue that he's building, whichis how we know when it is,
because the Statue of Liberty isbeing built.
(12:43):
And Henri flies him over to theisland of Manhattan.
So now Fival and his family arethere in New York, but they're
separated.
His family believes him to bedead.
Fival has all kinds ofadventures.
He meets this guy, Warranty Rat,who says he's gonna help him,
but actually sells him intoservitude in like a sweatshop.
(13:06):
But Fival uses his stories toget himself out.
He remembers Rapunzel, he tiesbedsheets together, he escapes.
So does another mouse named TonySpamoni.
They have all kinds ofadventures.
They end up going up against theMob Street Maulers, who is a
gang of cats.
And Madeline Kahn's GussieMouseheimer is super rich.
(13:32):
And she is wants to do somethingabout these cats.
And so she comes to like themeeting hall, like the union
hall.
She says, We need to have awowie.
And Honest John's like, a wowie?
And she says, Yes, you know,where we gather lots of people
together and we fight for whatwe want.
He says, Oh, a rally.
It is so funny.
(13:54):
Like, I like, especially becauseI was watching it with subtitles
on, because I was watching withmy partner who has a little hard
of hearing.
And it actually said, Wowie,W-A-W-W-Y.
We have to have a wowie.
So they're gathering peopletogether.
We meet mice of all differentstripe, and Madeline Conn's
Gussie's like, we need to dosomething.
(14:16):
Everybody's like, yeah.
And she's like, what do we do?
Crickets.
Any ideas?
Nothing.
Well, Fival comes and hewhispers in her ear.
We don't know what he whispers.
But basically, he says we shouldmake a mouse of Minsk, like a
mechanical mouse of Minsk, whichthey end up doing.
And through that plan, theyactually are able to basically
(14:38):
like scare all of the cats ofthe Mob Street Maulers onto a
boat, which is headed for HongKong.
And so then they sing, There areno more cats in America.
Except for one, which is Tiger.
So at one point, Fivel is sortof captured by the Maulers, and
(14:59):
he's like in a birdcage, and Idon't know why they don't just
eat him, but they don't.
But he makes friends with cats.
Yeah.
Because plot, but he makesfriends with Tiger, who like
isn't like the other cats.
I mean, even the way he's drawn,he's not like the other cats,
because they're all like greysand browns and stuff, and he is
uh orange.
He's played by Dom Deloise, andtotally to me, codes is gay.
(15:25):
And Tiger actually helps him getout from the captivity with the
maulers.
And so at the end, after thegiant mouse of Minsk has worked
and the cats, the Mob StreetMaulers are on this boat and the
mice are all celebrating, theydon't know where Fival is.
(15:45):
Now, meanwhile, Tony has changedFivel's name.
He's like, Five, that's got togo.
So he calls him Philly.
So he's calling, Tony's callingfor Philly Mauskowitz.
And the family hears themcalling and are like, Philly
Mauskowitz, maybe that's and thePapa's like, no, there are lots
of Mauskowitzes.
It's not him.
And so they find Tony who'ssaying it.
(16:06):
And he's, and well, and Tanyasays, Well, they changed my name
to Tilly.
Maybe they changed Fival's nameto Philly.
And they learned it is, in fact,Fival, and they go on a search.
Tiger helps, all the mice help,and then they're reunited, and
everything's really happy.
And in the final scene, we meetHenri again.
The statue is finished, and thepigeons, Henri and his pigeon
friends, all female pigeons, areflying the mice and tiger around
(16:30):
to see the statue.
And Henri refers to them as mylittle Americans.
In the beginning, it was animmigrant.
And the Statue of Liberty winksat them.
So, oh, and I didn't even put itin context, but the reveal where
Warranty Rat turns out to alsoactually be a cat happens right
before all the cats are put onthe boat because of the they're
(16:51):
scared of them.
Yes.
Okay.
He's the leader.
He's actually the leader of theMob Street Mall.
The Maulers.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so he uses as a rat, likethe mice sort of trust him and
they pay him for protection fromthe cats.
So it's like he's but he's a cathimself.
Yeah.
And he doesn't actually protect,like, they're not actually
(17:11):
protected.
So that's sort of what happens.
So let me start where I startedwith the postcards, which is
this story of the immigrantslash American story.
And I think the movie makersdefinitely wanted to, as you
were told and or figured out,like wanted to sort of tell this
Jewish American immigrant story,which many American Jews have.
(17:34):
Like it's actually not ourfamily's story, but many
American Jews have a similarstory to this kind of
immigration in the late 19thcentury and like very poor
tenements in New York and thatsort of thing.
And sort of like what I used tosay when I worked at a Jewish
museum, which is that likeJewish American history is
American history, which astandby.
(17:55):
And I think that's what theywere going for, and about the
importance of immigrants to thefabric of this country.
The question as to whether theysucceeded, I think is an
interesting one.
Like I watched this with mypartner Gary, and he was like,
how like the immigrants helpedone another by banishing the
cats.
(18:16):
Did they actually help likesociety writ large?
And I think that's actually afair question.
I mean, presumably all of theAmerican born mice now also
don't have the mob streetmaulers bothering them, of which
Gussie, Madeline Kahn'scharacter, is, I believe, meant
(18:37):
to be.
She's German kind of heritage,but I think we're meant to see
that she was born in America.
She also, I think, is meant tobe Jewish.
Mausheimer is her name.
And she's super duper rich.
And she says shit like peoplesay that being rich isn't
everything.
(18:57):
Being rich is everything iseverything.
And that's not true.
I know because I'm rich and Ihave everything.
Like such a bizarre, and withthat like R and L um speech
impediment that Khan doessometimes.
And like it's just hilarious.
Like it should be offensive theway she says it, but just funny.
(19:20):
Anyway, I think there'ssomething like they tell us that
this is an American story withthe name of the movie with its
pun, with its mouse pun, andwith the frame of Henri, the
French pigeon, who calls Fivalan immigrant in the first scene
and or first American scene, andcalls Fival an American in the
(19:44):
final American scene.
And so they tell us that.
But that said the power oforganizing is shown very
(20:13):
clearly.
And I think that's sort ofinteresting.
I don't know if that wasintentional or just sort of
necessary to tell that 1880sstory.
But I think that's reallyinteresting, especially now if I
go to the other thing that Iwanted to talk about, about the
metaphor of the animals, right?
(20:34):
Art Spiegelman in his graphicnovels Mouse and the Second
There Two, he just makes theJews or mice.
The Germans, the Nazis are cats,right?
The Poles are the non-JewishPoles are pigs, I think.
And so like there's a differentspecies for each of these human
(20:56):
identities.
And Spiegelman did that veryintentionally to sort of help
portray the power differential.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
I remember there's a point in Mouse where because
Spiegelman is married to aFrench woman and she asks, What
will I be?
Because she is not Jewish.
And he says, A mouse, of course.
And this is part of like theIt's in the book, yeah, in the
graphic novel.
Yeah.
Because once you start doingthis, like you do have these
questions.
SPEAKER_03 (21:26):
Right, right.
And I think Spiegelman wastelling a very specific story
with his father's shoah survivalstory.
Blut and Spielberg were alsotelling a specific story, but it
wasn't that story.
No.
And to a certain extent, part ofwhat they wanted to tell was the
ways in which it was notsingular.
(21:48):
The ways in which the experienceof the Mauskowitzes was not
singular because they wereJewish.
Right.
And so and so the metaphor isdifferent.
The cats are Not Nazis, they'reoppressors, they are Cossacks,
but they're also corruption inItaly, and then they're just
crime in Ireland.
(22:11):
And I think that's reallyinteresting to compare and
contrast in that way.
It's anti-Semites will compareJews to rodents, right?
And so choosing like Spiegelmanchoosing to make Jews mice in
mouse.
And then here Spielberg andBluth choosing to make these
(22:34):
protagonists mice are sort of aninteresting choice that works to
push back against it, againstthat insult while still using
the metaphor, which I, you know,I find it all really
interesting.
And like some of the things thenthat like the questions as you
(22:55):
start to iterate it through andlike extrapolate, like
apparently there are no dogs inan American tale in Manhattan.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because they don't fit themetaphor.
And so we there literally wedon't see any dogs at all in the
entire movie.
Which is, you know, makes sensebased on the way the metaphor is
(23:17):
laid out.
Like, who are dogs in themetaphor?
It doesn't, they don't fit.
But then there's also, you know,now that we're looking at the
metaphor, like there are no morecats in America, they sing,
because they got rid of likeseven, but except Tiger.
Tiger's safe because he's liketamed to a certain extent.
(23:38):
He has friends who are mice.
And like even the way they drawhim, like he does, he doesn't
have the sort of big sharp teeththat the other cats are given.
He's like got this bright color,and he's this like flamboyance,
both to the way that he is drawnwith this big bushy tail and the
way he behaves, the way DomDeloise plays him.
(23:59):
This there's this flamboyance,which is why I say I read him as
gay, but also a simpleness thatit's not flattering, I don't
think, to the gay coding.
It's sort of like in the movieAirplane, which we talked about
on one episode.
There's like that one characterwho's meant to be gay, who's
(24:20):
like doing goofy shit in thebackground.
And that allows him to be thebutt of the joke for multiple
reasons.
There's some of that going onwith this Dom Deluisa's tiger,
which is another reason why Iclocked him as maybe gay.
Because in in 86, like that wassort of shorthand, that that
(24:42):
kind of goofiness.
In addition to the flamboyance.
It's a goofy flamboyance.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
So I want to stick with this for a second, with the
metaphor that, okay, so cats arethe oppressors, and there's one
who's safe.
And I'm thinking about, I hadthis experience, it was, and you
know about this, but theaudience doesn't.
It was in 2017, not long after Isaw Nope by Jordan Peel, where
(25:09):
uh sorry, get out, not longafter I saw Get Out, which is
what helped me truly understandthat I am not safe for black
folks.
Because at the end of Get Out,there's a moment where the
character Rose, who is white,hears police sirens, what she
thinks are police sirens, andshe gets this grin on her face
because she knows that she willwin in any situation.
(25:30):
And in this moment, whathappened was I was it's a local
political group that I was partof.
It was a like a mom's group.
We were connecting with a localBlack Panthers group to put
together a spaghetti dinner.
I had volunteered to helpcourier the food to our liaison
with another member of my groupwho knew where we were going.
(25:51):
I got lost and I ended up there,like had the GPS, but I was not
with the person I knew.
So the house that I was going towas like a duplex and I knocked
on the wrong door.
The woman who answered wasterrified of me.
And like immediately was like, Idon't know who you're looking
for and close the door.
And I realized like a whitewoman knocking on her door is
(26:12):
never good news.
So, reason I'm bringing this upis like this metaphor, this idea
that there is a cat who is safewhen the cats are the
oppressors, you have to makethem like flamboyantly
different.
And there's there will always bea separation, otherwise.
(26:36):
And um, gay coding in achildren's movie is interesting
as that being like what makesthem safe.
Although, if you know whatyou're worried about is like
literal like predation anddeath, but I just I find this
like fascinating because if youiterate it out, because like
what makes someone a cat iscorruption and abuse of power
(27:04):
and violence, straight upviolence, uh-huh.
Yeah.
Tiger is a vegetarian, we learn.
And that's like right there,that is an American tale, is the
abuse of power, violence,corruption punching down.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yeah.
And the movie makers actuallysort of know that.
Like we meet honest John at aunion hall.
Well, it's a at a pub, but it'slike a union hall kind of a
thing.
And there's they're having awake for a mouse who's been
killed by cats.
And John says, you know, he diedbefore he even had a chance to
vote.
I'ma fix that.
And he like, we see him writedown the dead mouse's name in a
(27:42):
book of like ghost voters.
So this, you know, thecorruption as part and parcel to
America.
Like it's in this, yeah, it'sactually in this movie.
Yeah.
The metaphor of the cats as theas a as oppressors, all
different kinds of oppressors,leading to this story about
(28:02):
organizing, about comingtogether.
And that story, like, we hearmultiple mice call for that, not
just Gussie, the sort of richwoman from uptown, but also
Bridget, who is anotherimmigrant who Tony Spamoni falls
in love with at first sight, isalso saying, like, if we just
got together, so there's likethere are these calls from the
(28:26):
top and the bottom of the classhierarchy to organize.
And then Fival is the one whoactually brings the mechanism
for the organizing from storiesthat he heard.
So the kind of underlying lessonis about organizing, but it's
also about imagination and thepower of story.
(28:49):
So we saw Fival escape.
He was sold into servitude inthis sweatshop.
He doesn't even spend one nightthere because the very first
night he's like, We need themouse with the really long hair.
And he starts tying bed sheetstogether and like slips out the
window.
And then it is his idea to likemake a mouse of Minsk.
(29:12):
And so it's imagination, butit's imagination fed by stories.
So this story about, you know,that chooses to make the
oppressors and the oppressedvisibly different species, is
also teaching us about theoppressed coming together and
(29:34):
using their imagination and thestories that they've collected
to make something bigger thanthemselves.
Which I think is maybe part ofwhy we loved it when we were
kids.
Like, because that's the kind ofa story, the kind of a lesson
that like really appealed, stilldoes, to I think you are and my
(29:54):
both of our like story-lovinghearts.
And it's a different, like thereare lessons in there, like that
you're pointing to about safetyand like signaling safety.
And it has to be flamboyantlydifferent than the danger,
especially for children.
(30:15):
But there are also lessons aboutthe power of story, the power of
the imagination, the power ofworking together.
Like shit goes wrong whilethey're actually like doing the
plan.
Like the mouse gets like theyrelease it too soon, and the
cats aren't where they'resupposed to be.
So they stop it and then it'stime to release it and they
can't get it moving again.
(30:36):
And like, you know, all kinds ofstuff.
Five alt is the one who in theend gets it moving again because
he brings a candle underneath arope that's holding it when
they're trying to untie it andcan't get it on tied.
So there's like, there arelessons about innovation and
imagination and story that likejust kind of gel together in a
way that is satisfying to storyconsumers like you and me.
(31:01):
So I want to talk, since we justtalked about flamboyantly
different, let's talk about ZomZeloise and Madeline Kahn's
characters for a moment.
Like, despite what I just saidabout the sort of satisfying
kind of lesson, I actually thinkthis movie would have been kind
of boring.
I don't know how satisfying itwould have been without those
comic relief pockets afforded byZom Zeloise and Madeline Kahn's
(31:29):
characters.
And I wanna at least ask thequestion, even if we don't come
up with an answer of like, whatdoes that say about the story
that I just named as beingsatisfied?
But I'm also saying, like, yeah,but it would have been pretty
forgettable without those twocharacters.
Like, do we actually need theselike silly, flamboyant vehicles
(31:53):
as a part of these lessons inorder for us to receive them?
Like, or does that indicate thatmaybe the rest of the
storytelling was only so so thatI'm suggesting that I wouldn't
have enjoyed the movie nearly asmuch without those two
characters?
Because we still could havegotten 80% of the story and the
things I just named as beingsatisfying without those two.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (32:17):
So I don't have an answer, but the question arises
for me when I'm like looking atthe movie as a whole and sort of
saying, like, yeah, I reallyenjoyed it.
And also, like, without thewowie and Dom Zeloise's like cat
dancing, like it's all right.
(32:37):
So was Fival voiced by a childactor?
Yeah, I believe so.
Fivel's voice actor was a mannamed Philip Glasser.
I don't know that person.
Okay.
I believe he was a child actor.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
So, like, my just off the cuff here theory is
because child actors are childactors.
This might just be thedifference between someone who's
a professional.
And so, like, you know, much ofthe film is like you're getting
the best performance you can outof someone who is very new to
acting versus two people who areprofessionals and professional
(33:17):
comedians at the top of theirgame.
SPEAKER_03 (33:19):
Yeah, that's a fair point.
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
That is a fair point.
SPEAKER_03 (33:21):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
And which is part of the reason why they included
Madeleine Kahn and Dom Deluise,and then like Christopher
Plummer.
This was back when it's now muchmore common to get known actors
to voice animated films.
But back then it was less, lesscommon.
SPEAKER_03 (33:39):
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point.
I actually I'll accept that.
That it's not a doesn'tinvalidate the power of the
storytelling, but just points toperhaps the immaturity and
inexperience of the protagonistactors.
Yeah.
I'll buy that.
I'll buy that.
Yeah, thank you.
So the last two things on mylist that I wanted to talk about
(34:03):
in this main episode, there's abig reveal that Fival discovers
first.
So Fivil's papa plays theviolin.
And so there are several momentsin New York where he hears the
violin and he's like, Papa,Papa, and he follows the sound
of the violin.
One of those times, he followsit into the den of the Mob
(34:26):
Street Maulers because Warren T.
Rat also plays the violin.
But while he's playing, he keepsmaking a mistake and he says,
Oh, it's this stupid nose.
And he pulls off the cone noseof the rat and reveals a cat
face.
And then once he's taken thenose off, he like does something
to his ears too, and cat earssort of unfurl underneath uh
(34:50):
like fake mouse ears or ratears.
And so Fival has seen it.
That's when he gets captured.
So he can't warn the other mice.
But it becomes clear to all ofthe other mice later, and like
Gussie is leading the chargewith the Mouse of Minsk
automaton, and she says, You'llnever get another penny out of a
(35:10):
mouse, Warren.
Anyway, I wanted to sort ofunpack with you a little bit.
Like, we've talked about themetaphor of these animals quite
a bit.
Like, what is the metaphor of acat in rat's clothing?
Like, that feels really ripe.
Like, in fact, initially I was Iwas a little uncomfortable as I
(35:33):
started to ask myself thatquestion, because we've got him
as this middleman.
I'm like, is that a Jewish spotas the middleman?
I don't think it is, in fact,because we've got these sort of
violent criminals, and then thisguy sort of as painting himself
as the middleman, like, you payme and we make sure that you're
(35:55):
protected.
It's much more sort of mafiosokind of coding than like Jewish
merchant middleman.
Mm-hmm.
But there's like I'm stillunpacking it.
He is the only rat that we meet,and he's not actually a rat.
And there's something, there issomething like just in the
language that we in English, theway we talk about it.
(36:16):
Like a rat.
Exactly.
And like, or like a rat fink,like a double cross, someone who
double crosses is a rat.
And so to have this fake rat whois actually one of the
oppressors, like pretending tobe a rat, like there's a certain
like truthiness almost to thatlike visual metaphor of a cat in
(36:42):
rat's clothing.
But I'm not sure, like, when Ilook at it as the bigger piece
of the literary metaphor thatgives us the power of
organizing, I'm not quite surewhat to do with him.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Well, I mean, I one thing I'm thinking about,
because you are talking you weresaying like it's cognizant of
the corruption in America.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
And in the late 19th century, that's when you had
like the bosses.
And so you have, and I mean,hell, like we don't have to go
back that far.
Populism is so often someonesaying, like, I'm here for the
little man.
And meanwhile, I'm lining my ownpockets, and I'm actually like a
(37:26):
crony of the big bosses.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
I mean, actually, that's interesting.
The way you just said, like, thelittle man, like in literally
this the mice, the smallercreature.
Yeah.
That's an interesting point.
SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
So, like, there's, I mean, we have a long history of
that, of populist politicalfigures who claim that they are
there to protect the people whoare just trying to live their
lives, just trying to get by,and who are just grifters.
Yeah.
And are selling them out,literally.
Yeah.
(38:01):
I mean, we're seeing that rightnow.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the cat in rat's clothing isa politician to a certain
extent, in this extendedmetaphor of American tale.
Yeah, I like that.
That works for me.
One thing you said about like,so at one point, Gussie says, I
always try to look out for thoseless fortunate than me, which is
everyone.
(38:24):
She's so and like you shouldhate her, right?
But somehow she manages to belike Madeline Khan is such a
such an actress.
Like, she manages to walk thatline to actually make it like
somehow charming.
Anyway, yeah.
All right.
So then the last thing, thisfilm, I don't think it passes
Beckdell.
There are multiple named femalecharacters.
(38:47):
There's there are many.
And they even talk to each othera couple of them.
Like Mama Mauskowitz and Tanyaslash Tilly talk to one another,
but they talk about five ofthem.
So, and I don't think likeBridget, who is the working
class immigrant like organizer,and Gussie, the rich uptown
(39:11):
organizer, like they don't talkto one another.
That may be all of them.
That may be all of all of thenamed female characters.
Like most of the mice we meetare male.
So it does not pass Bechtel,unfortunately.
Which is not surprising for a1986 movie about immigrants made
(39:31):
by two men.
Because that is, we talked aboutit a little bit when we talked
about Avalon.
That's like especially in a sortof, it's not exactly
self-insert, but it's a littlebit by telling my grandpa's
story kind of a thing.
But it makes a certain amount ofsense that he was they, these
two men thinking about their owngrandfathers, not their
(39:52):
grandmothers.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
And I think that I also like we've talked about it
to some extent, and you pointedout the sort of gay coding this
cat as tiger as gay to make himsafe in a kid's movie in the
80s, you know, and some of thelike the irony in that or the
tension in that, although it wasall about the kind of forward
(40:15):
presentation as opposed toactual sex, right?
There's, I mean, none of these.
Well, Tony Spumoni, who falls inlove immediately with Bridget,
like there is the hint ofromance and sex between him and
Bridget, but that's it in thewhole movie.
So, but I I think that is sortof worth naming this in addition
(40:37):
to the gender dynamic, thesexual orientation dynamic, and
the kind of shorthand ofnon-toxic masculinity.
Maybe, and maybe this is aboutme as much as about the movie
makers.
I will own that.
But like the fact that I readthat Dom Deloise's non-toxic
masculinity and tiger, I readthat as gay coding.
SPEAKER_01 (40:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
I don't think I'm alone, but you know, that's
worth I just felt that's worthnaming.
SPEAKER_02 (41:03):
Just as oh, so he's a vegetarian, which okay, that
goes against like cats biology,but right this is also this is
in the 1980s where eating quichewas considered queer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:17):
So, like that that's he's wearing this like like two
small little t-shirt.
Like they all wear clothes, butlike all Tiger wears is this
little t-shirt that's like ababy's all tea sort of thing on
him because he's a big floofycat.
SPEAKER_02 (41:29):
So I that I read also as sort of gay coding in
terms of what he was wearing.
It's also like Dom Delouise didthis, it is not the only part
where he was queer-coated.
Right, right.
There are other places where Iknow he was intentionally
queer-coated.
Blazing saddles, for example.
He's a very small part, but itis very much queer-coated.
SPEAKER_03 (41:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's something that showsup in this movie.
So before I just I do my quicklike synopsis of what we talked
about, I'll just say like it wasenjoyable.
I wouldn't put it at the top ofyour list, but like if it's on,
watch it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Somewhere out there's still a great song.
SPEAKER_03 (42:06):
Yeah, that's actually really interesting.
In The Shit We Forgot to Say,which listeners, that is a
patron bonus.
I want to talk more about thatsong because I think that it was
Linda Ronstadt and James Ingramproduced the radio hit.
And I want to talk about thesong a little bit.
Okay, okay.
But yeah.
No cats in America is a greatsong, too.
Okay.
I do not remember that one.
(42:27):
So and Tiger and Five will singa song about the fact that they
won't need to be lonely anymorebecause they have a friend,
which is also pretty sweet.
Aww.
So, yeah.
So let me just remind you here'swhat we talked about.
We talked at some length aboutthis movie as portraying an
immigrant story, specifically aJewish immigrant story that is
(42:47):
not universal, but is fairlytypical of a lot a number of
American Jewish families.
And what the movie makers, Ithink, were going for, which was
really to sort of show theseimmigrants are Americans.
I think they told us that to acertain extent.
What they showed us was thepower of organizing, the power
(43:11):
of people, even with less power,even those in the oppressed
category, when working togetherto achieve great things and sort
of prevail over the oppressors.
That's what they showed us.
They told us that theseimmigrants are part of the
American story, in my opinion.
(43:31):
We talked at great length aboutthe metaphor of making these
characters animals and theextended metaphor there.
We put it in contrast to ArtSpiegelman's mouse graphic
novels, where he sort of hassomewhat rigid kind of species
and ethnicity or nationalityconnections.
(43:54):
This film does not do that.
So there are Jewish mice, butthere are also Catholic mice.
And the cats, therefore, thereare Cossack mice, but there are
also mafioso mice, and there arealso just You mean cats.
Oh, yeah, thank you.
There are Cossack cats.
Thank you.
And there are mafioso cats, andthere are also just violent
(44:15):
murderer cats, and there areorganized crime cats here in
America, even though the songsaid there are no cats in
America.
So that's working differentlythan what Spiegelman was doing,
and also doing some of the samethings by making the oppressor
literally stronger and morepowerful than the oppressed,
(44:39):
which only makes the story thatI think that they showed us
about organizing morecompelling.
We also talked about thatorganizing lesson.
It's not just about like gettingtogether.
There also is an element ofimagination and of like pulling
(45:00):
from our stories and making themserve us in the organizing.
Through we see Fivul escapingservitude through his knowledge
of the Rapunzel story, we seeFivul actually like giving the
mechanism through the Mouse ofMinsk this kind of fictionalized
(45:24):
golem version or version of theGolem story as the means by
which the mice are able toprevail against the cats and
send them off to Hong Kong.
There's a little bit about classin this film, though not a great
deal of critique, especiallysince we have the person of
(45:44):
Gussie Mausheimer, who is filthyrich and sort of one, very much
one of the mice.
Even though she keeps remindingus how she's different, she's an
uptown mouse.
She knows that being rich isn'teverything because she is rich
and she has everything.
So she constantly reminds us ofthe difference between her and
(46:05):
these downtown mice.
And yet she's one of them.
She gets to be the leader, butshe's one of them.
And so there is definitely anunderstanding of class
distinction in this film, verymuch so.
And yet, very little critique.
I didn't even talk about that atall that much, but having like
Gussie there, I think is youcan't help but see the.
(46:27):
I mean, she names it all thetime, and we see it in what
she's wearing and the way shetalks, all of that.
We talked at some length aboutthe comedy brought by Madeline
Kahn and by Dom Delawise.
I laughed out loud and made youlaugh out loud at Madeline
Kahn's, we need a wowie.
(46:48):
I wondered if the fact that theycarried so much of my enjoyment
of the film invalidated thestorytelling of the film.
You offered maybe actually whatI was reacting to was the
inexperience and immaturity ofthe lead actor who was a child
actor.
I think that you're probablyright about that.
(47:11):
We talked a little bit about thepower of the metaphor of a cat
in rat's clothing.
And not at that point, but as apart of the metaphor of the cats
and like the one safe cat, whowas not the one in rat's
clothing, but he wanted us tobelieve it was him.
(47:31):
You told a story about sort ofrealizing that, you know, even
though you know you're one ofthe good ones, you still look
like a cat to someone who haslived life kind of as a mouse in
American culture.
And so that was like aninteresting kind of personal
aside that this movie brought upfor us.
And then I landed on the BeckDel Test, this movie does not
(47:55):
pass, which is not a surprisefor a 1986 movie made primitive
primarily by two men about late19th century, where we just
weren't telling women's storiesmuch.
And so the fact that though wehave at least four named female
characters, they don't talk toeach other about anything other
than five is not really asurprise.
(48:18):
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Anything?
No, we just we spent a littletime talking about how Dom
Deloise's character seems codedas gay.
Yeah.
And yeah, how that feels alittle ironic for a children's
movie in the 80s that he's safe.
SPEAKER_03 (48:32):
Yeah, there's some tension in that.
Although it also makes a certainamount of sense because sort of
masculinity, traditional slashtoxic masculinity is what's not
violent, yeah.
Yeah, is what's not safe, iswhat's dangerous about these
cats.
Especially, I don't thinkthere's a single female cat that
(48:53):
we see.
In future movies, there will bebecause a tiger ends up with
Miss Kitty, but in this movie,there's not a single female cat.
And so the danger is definitelyassociated with the masculinity,
you know, through correlation.
And so to take that danger away,you sort of dial back the
(49:14):
masculinity, but it's still amale cat, you end up with a
queer coating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:23):
What are you gonna bring me next week?
So I'm bringing you my deepthoughts on the movie
Highlander.
Oh my god.
There can be only one.
There can be only one.
Our stepfather loved that movieso much.
Yes.
And the TV show, but we're justdoing the movie.
Okay.
Go on to live forever.
(49:46):
Anyway.
So I will look forward to it.
SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
We'll see you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(50:10):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
(50:33):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
So there's like there are these calls from the
(00:03):
top and the bottom of the classhierarchy to organize.
And then Fival is the one whoactually brings the mechanism
for the organizing from storiesthat he heard.
So the kind of underlying lessonis about organizing, but it's
also about imagination and thepower of story.
(00:26):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
(00:49):
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll betalking about the 1986 animated
film An American Tale with mysister, Emily Guy Birken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
And listener, before I dive inwith Emily, actually I'm going
(01:09):
to ask you a favor.
If you have not already, pleasenavigate to the top of the show
and follow in whatever you'relistening to.
On Apple Podcasts, it's a plussign.
On Spotify, it's actually abutton that says follow.
That will actually really helpus out and cost you nothing.
Thanks so much.
Okay, I know you saw this film,but I have a feeling it was a
(01:30):
long time ago.
So what's in your head about anAmerican tale?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
So I can remember what Fival looks like.
Kind of.
I remember he's got kind of bigears, and I remember he's
wearing a cap.
I remember somewhere out there,I could probably sing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's it.
Okay.
I remember there's a sequelcalled Five Goes West.
And I remember even as a childbeing like, no, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_03 (01:56):
There are multiple sequels.
We will not be talking about anyof them.
We are just talking about theoriginal American Tales.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
I remember really loving it.
And that that's like I dorecall, I'm sure I was told
this.
I know I didn't get this on myown, but I recall that this film
was like mirrored the immigrantexperience for Jews.
SPEAKER_03 (02:24):
You might have been able to figure it out.
I mean, you were really littlewhen we when we were watching
it, but it'll become clear whyin a moment.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
And then I it's most like that's about it.
That's really like I rememberFivel singing the song, and that
that's kind of it.
That's like it's you'vementioned before that I really
have a good memory for movies.
This one, it's in there, it'slike it's pleasant, and that's
about it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
Yeah, that's how I usually am.
I mean, you were seven when thisone was released.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
So and this it was not one we had on VHS and
watched over.
SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
No, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
I don't think so either.
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
Yeah.
Tell me why why we're talkingabout this today.
Well, it's funny because when wedid what I did land before time,
I was like, oh, I should havedone an American Tale because it
was like the obvious one for us,since it was like this Jewish
story.
It actually is later than LandBefore Time was first.
So chronologically it made sensethat I did Land Before Time.
And I saw Land Before Time a lotmore because the some kids I
(03:22):
babysat for watched it onrepeat.
But American Tale we sawcontemporaneously, and so it's
in there.
I've been thinking about itsince I did our episode about
Land Before Time, which we'lllink to in the show notes in
case you haven't listened to it.
So that's why it's been on mymind right now.
And it actually, in some ways,is timely to be thinking and
(03:42):
talking about immigrants rightnow, which is not intentionally
why I did it right now, but weare gonna end up talking about
that a bit.
So there's not a ton at stakefor me, like you.
I remember it fondly, but it'snot a huge amount at stake, but
it was one of the ones where Iwas like, oh, Don Bluth, I
should have done the Jewish one.
(04:02):
So is not Don Bluth Jewish?
I don't know the answer to that.
Steven Spielberg was the yes,actually, I think Don Bluth was.
Spielberg was the producer forthis, and he brought it to
Bluth.
And apparently Bluth was like, Ican't get away from mice because
he had also done Mrs.
Frisbee.
Mrs.
Frisbee and the Rats into ofthem.
(04:23):
That was Bluth, and he also didThe Rescuers, which is mice.
So, but I believe Fival wasBluth's grandfather's name,
though it may have beenSpielberg's grandfather's name.
I could be wrong about that.
Okay.
But but the name like came fromone of the two key men who were
involved in creating this fromtheir family.
(04:44):
So it was a personal story forSpielberg, and I think maybe
Bluth as well.
So that's why we're talkingabout it.
Let me give you a few postcardsfrom the destination before I
remind you of what happens inthis film.
So I do I want to talk aboutsort of the immigrant story and
specifically the Jewishimmigrant story, but not
exclusively, because it's notlike Fivel and his family are
(05:07):
Jewish, but we meet many micewho are immigrants from all
over.
And while talking about theimmigrant story as an American
story, I want to sort of unpackwhat I think the movie makers
were going for and askourselves, did they succeed?
I want to look at the way thatanimals are used as metaphors
(05:27):
here.
As the movie started for myrewatch, I was thinking, like,
oh, is this like ArtSpiegelman's mouse, where the
mice will be Jews and then thesort of powerful anti-Semites
are other animals.
But no, that's not the casebecause we meet mice from Italy
(05:47):
and from Ireland who are clearlynot Jewish, who also had cat
oppressors.
So I'll get into that.
I want to talk about that alittle bit though, with the
animals as metaphors and thedifference of this version
versus Spiegelman.
I want to talk about theimportance of story within
story.
Fivel succeeds in many waysbecause of the stories he's got
(06:10):
in his head.
And that's really interesting, Ithink, in this kind of
storytelling for children.
I want to talk about the comedyin this film.
Madeline Kahn and Dom Deloiseplay two characters, a mouse and
a cat, respectively.
And they are hilarious and like,in many ways, in my opinion,
make the movie.
Like if you took their parts outor changed the actors, I don't
(06:32):
know if it would have succeededthe way that it did.
And I want to unpack a littlebit like, what does that say
about the film and its merits?
If so much rides on these twoperformances.
We also learn there's like a badguy who's a rat, and it turns
out he's not a rat.
He's a cat pretending to be arat.
And we learn this at the end.
(06:54):
And I want to unpack that alittle bit, especially after our
earlier conversation about likethe earlier postcard I sent
about metaphor, the metaphor ofthe animals.
And then finally, we'll talk alittle bit about very briefly
about gender representation anda little about sexual
orientation.
I think.
I think that Dom Delaware'scharacter, Tiger, is coded as
gay.
(07:14):
Although in a future movie, theyput the kibosh on that because
apparently Tiger ends up withMiss Kitty.
I did not re-watch just what theinterwebs told me.
So let me try to remind you ofthe story.
I made some notes for myself.
It's been, I watched it.
We were supposed to record acouple days ago and then we had
to postpone.
(07:34):
So it's been about a week sinceI re-watched it.
So I'm I'm gonna sort of talkabout the scenes that matter to
my analysis.
I'm not gonna try and give likea full chronology.
The movie opens.
This is not a sort ofreplacement, like a zootopia
where there are no humans.
(07:54):
This is a human world where micealso live.
So the camera, I'm puttingquotes around that, first pans
over the home of theMoskowitzes, human beings who
live in Tchotska, Russia, whichis now part of Ukraine.
It's meant to be the 1880s.
And then the camera pans down toa little mouse hole over which
(08:15):
the name is the Mauskowitzes.
So the Mauskowitzes live in theMoskowitzes home.
And it's Hanukkah.
We know it's Hanukkah becausethey say happy Hanukkah.
And which is why I think maybeyou could have picked up one
switch.
Even when you were seven.
unknown (08:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
So they say happy Hanukkah, and then Fivel's like,
what about gifts?
And there are three kids.
There's the older sister, hername is Tanya, and then Fivel,
and then there's a babe in arms,like a little tiny baby, whose
name we don't get.
And Papa plays the violin.
This is important.
Plot point for later.
We get the gifts.
So Tanya gets a babushka, whichis like a headscarf, which would
(08:55):
not have been called that byYiddish speakers in the 1880s.
But hey, they're micecelebrating Hanukkah.
And so I'm gonna just let thatfly.
It's a 1986 cartoon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just gonna let that fly.
Also, gift giving for Hanukkahwas not a thing.
It's not a thing in the 1880s.
Yeah.
Especially not in Europe or inthe Ukraine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
What would be the Ukraine?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
Yeah.
So again, gonna let it passbecause it was made for 1986
Americans.
But I had to mention it.
But I had to mention it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
Sources and triceratops didn't live at the
same time.
SPEAKER_03 (09:27):
I just had to mention it.
Okay.
All right.
Their Hanukkah celebration getsinterrupted by like shouts and
screams from outside.
It is a pogrom, and the Cossackshave come and they are like
killing people and torturing thevillage.
And the human Cossacks bringwith them like saliva dripping
fang Cossack cats.
(09:50):
So that's like the first sceneof the movie.
So the Moskowitzes, no, excuseme, the Mauskowitzes.
I don't know what happens to theMoskowitzes, but the
Mauskowitzes decide to emigrate.
So we see them getting on a boatin Hamburg, Germany, with a
whole bunch of other mice.
They're like walking up the ropeas the humans are walking up the
gangway.
(10:11):
So on the voyage, we see Fivelfrom the very beginning from the
Cossacks, we see him as likevery curious and like this sort
of child.
I mean, it's not childlikebecause he's a child, but the a
child's wonder and kind ofcuriosity.
(10:31):
He asks Papa to tell the storyabout the mouse of Minsk, which
is this fictional that I don'tthink is real, but like this
giant mouse that was huge, likeas big as a tree, and like
protected the normal size micefrom cats in Minsk.
We also learn, sort of in andaside, that Rapunzel is a story
that they tell because he asksabout the mouse with the really
(10:53):
long hair that people can climbup.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Is the mouse of Minsk supposed to be like a
golem story?
SPEAKER_03 (10:58):
Maybe.
Okay.
Maybe, but it's like really big.
Okay.
I mean, so like I mean the golemis meant to be large, but I
don't know that he's meant to belike bigger than a house.
Because like proportionally.
But yes, it's a similar sort ofstory to the golem, yes.
And so on the boat, we see Fivalcontinuing to have that sort of
curiosity.
(11:19):
We meet other mice who aretalking about why they're
immigrating.
So there's an Italian mice whotalks about losing his mama Mia
to the Don cat, who presumablywas a mafioso.
They were Catholic because hesays the only thing we found of
her was a rosary.
And then we meet an Irish mousewho lost his girlfriend to a cat
(11:39):
who was just some sort ofmurderer, who all he was left
with was her tail to bury her.
So we, and then we get the songThere Are No Cats in America,
which you might remember nowthat I've said it or not.
I don't.
They well they sing this songabout how there are no cats in
America and the streets arelined with cheese.
Okay.
Yeah.
That happens on the boat.
(12:00):
Because of a huge storm andFival's natural curiosity, he
gets like swept off the boat,and his family believe him dead.
So they make it to CastleGarden, and there's this sad
moment where the immigrationofficer is like, How many are
you?
And he says, Five, and he says,Oh, I mean four, like Papa
remembering that Five's gone.
(12:21):
But Fival makes it.
He like ends up in a bottle andwashes up basically on Statue of
Liberty Islands, and this Frenchpigeon, Henri, played by Chris
or voiced by ChristopherPlummer, like welcomes him,
like, oh, my little immigrant,and like tells him all about the
statue that he's building, whichis how we know when it is,
because the Statue of Liberty isbeing built.
(12:43):
And Henri flies him over to theisland of Manhattan.
So now Fival and his family arethere in New York, but they're
separated.
His family believes him to bedead.
Fival has all kinds ofadventures.
He meets this guy, Warranty Rat,who says he's gonna help him,
but actually sells him intoservitude in like a sweatshop.
(13:06):
But Fival uses his stories toget himself out.
He remembers Rapunzel, he tiesbedsheets together, he escapes.
So does another mouse named TonySpamoni.
They have all kinds ofadventures.
They end up going up against theMob Street Maulers, who is a
gang of cats.
And Madeline Kahn's GussieMouseheimer is super rich.
(13:32):
And she is wants to do somethingabout these cats.
And so she comes to like themeeting hall, like the union
hall.
She says, We need to have awowie.
And Honest John's like, a wowie?
And she says, Yes, you know,where we gather lots of people
together and we fight for whatwe want.
He says, Oh, a rally.
It is so funny.
(13:54):
Like, I like, especially becauseI was watching it with subtitles
on, because I was watching withmy partner who has a little hard
of hearing.
And it actually said, Wowie,W-A-W-W-Y.
We have to have a wowie.
So they're gathering peopletogether.
We meet mice of all differentstripe, and Madeline Conn's
Gussie's like, we need to dosomething.
(14:16):
Everybody's like, yeah.
And she's like, what do we do?
Crickets.
Any ideas?
Nothing.
Well, Fival comes and hewhispers in her ear.
We don't know what he whispers.
But basically, he says we shouldmake a mouse of Minsk, like a
mechanical mouse of Minsk, whichthey end up doing.
And through that plan, theyactually are able to basically
(14:38):
like scare all of the cats ofthe Mob Street Maulers onto a
boat, which is headed for HongKong.
And so then they sing, There areno more cats in America.
Except for one, which is Tiger.
So at one point, Fivel is sortof captured by the Maulers, and
(14:59):
he's like in a birdcage, and Idon't know why they don't just
eat him, but they don't.
But he makes friends with cats.
Yeah.
Because plot, but he makesfriends with Tiger, who like
isn't like the other cats.
I mean, even the way he's drawn,he's not like the other cats,
because they're all like greysand browns and stuff, and he is
uh orange.
He's played by Dom Deloise, andtotally to me, codes is gay.
(15:25):
And Tiger actually helps him getout from the captivity with the
maulers.
And so at the end, after thegiant mouse of Minsk has worked
and the cats, the Mob StreetMaulers are on this boat and the
mice are all celebrating, theydon't know where Fival is.
(15:45):
Now, meanwhile, Tony has changedFivel's name.
He's like, Five, that's got togo.
So he calls him Philly.
So he's calling, Tony's callingfor Philly Mauskowitz.
And the family hears themcalling and are like, Philly
Mauskowitz, maybe that's and thePapa's like, no, there are lots
of Mauskowitzes.
It's not him.
And so they find Tony who'ssaying it.
(16:06):
And he's, and well, and Tanyasays, Well, they changed my name
to Tilly.
Maybe they changed Fival's nameto Philly.
And they learned it is, in fact,Fival, and they go on a search.
Tiger helps, all the mice help,and then they're reunited, and
everything's really happy.
And in the final scene, we meetHenri again.
The statue is finished, and thepigeons, Henri and his pigeon
friends, all female pigeons, areflying the mice and tiger around
(16:30):
to see the statue.
And Henri refers to them as mylittle Americans.
In the beginning, it was animmigrant.
And the Statue of Liberty winksat them.
So, oh, and I didn't even put itin context, but the reveal where
Warranty Rat turns out to alsoactually be a cat happens right
before all the cats are put onthe boat because of the they're
(16:51):
scared of them.
Yes.
Okay.
He's the leader.
He's actually the leader of theMob Street Mall.
The Maulers.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so he uses as a rat, likethe mice sort of trust him and
they pay him for protection fromthe cats.
So it's like he's but he's a cathimself.
Yeah.
And he doesn't actually protect,like, they're not actually
(17:11):
protected.
So that's sort of what happens.
So let me start where I startedwith the postcards, which is
this story of the immigrantslash American story.
And I think the movie makersdefinitely wanted to, as you
were told and or figured out,like wanted to sort of tell this
Jewish American immigrant story,which many American Jews have.
(17:34):
Like it's actually not ourfamily's story, but many
American Jews have a similarstory to this kind of
immigration in the late 19thcentury and like very poor
tenements in New York and thatsort of thing.
And sort of like what I used tosay when I worked at a Jewish
museum, which is that likeJewish American history is
American history, which astandby.
(17:55):
And I think that's what theywere going for, and about the
importance of immigrants to thefabric of this country.
The question as to whether theysucceeded, I think is an
interesting one.
Like I watched this with mypartner Gary, and he was like,
how like the immigrants helpedone another by banishing the
cats.
(18:16):
Did they actually help likesociety writ large?
And I think that's actually afair question.
I mean, presumably all of theAmerican born mice now also
don't have the mob streetmaulers bothering them, of which
Gussie, Madeline Kahn'scharacter, is, I believe, meant
(18:37):
to be.
She's German kind of heritage,but I think we're meant to see
that she was born in America.
She also, I think, is meant tobe Jewish.
Mausheimer is her name.
And she's super duper rich.
And she says shit like peoplesay that being rich isn't
everything.
(18:57):
Being rich is everything iseverything.
And that's not true.
I know because I'm rich and Ihave everything.
Like such a bizarre, and withthat like R and L um speech
impediment that Khan doessometimes.
And like it's just hilarious.
Like it should be offensive theway she says it, but just funny.
(19:20):
Anyway, I think there'ssomething like they tell us that
this is an American story withthe name of the movie with its
pun, with its mouse pun, andwith the frame of Henri, the
French pigeon, who calls Fivalan immigrant in the first scene
and or first American scene, andcalls Fival an American in the
(19:44):
final American scene.
And so they tell us that.
But that said the power oforganizing is shown very
(20:13):
clearly.
And I think that's sort ofinteresting.
I don't know if that wasintentional or just sort of
necessary to tell that 1880sstory.
But I think that's reallyinteresting, especially now if I
go to the other thing that Iwanted to talk about, about the
metaphor of the animals, right?
(20:34):
Art Spiegelman in his graphicnovels Mouse and the Second
There Two, he just makes theJews or mice.
The Germans, the Nazis are cats,right?
The Poles are the non-JewishPoles are pigs, I think.
And so like there's a differentspecies for each of these human
(20:56):
identities.
And Spiegelman did that veryintentionally to sort of help
portray the power differential.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
I remember there's a point in Mouse where because
Spiegelman is married to aFrench woman and she asks, What
will I be?
Because she is not Jewish.
And he says, A mouse, of course.
And this is part of like theIt's in the book, yeah, in the
graphic novel.
Yeah.
Because once you start doingthis, like you do have these
questions.
SPEAKER_03 (21:26):
Right, right.
And I think Spiegelman wastelling a very specific story
with his father's shoah survivalstory.
Blut and Spielberg were alsotelling a specific story, but it
wasn't that story.
No.
And to a certain extent, part ofwhat they wanted to tell was the
ways in which it was notsingular.
(21:48):
The ways in which the experienceof the Mauskowitzes was not
singular because they wereJewish.
Right.
And so and so the metaphor isdifferent.
The cats are Not Nazis, they'reoppressors, they are Cossacks,
but they're also corruption inItaly, and then they're just
crime in Ireland.
(22:11):
And I think that's reallyinteresting to compare and
contrast in that way.
It's anti-Semites will compareJews to rodents, right?
And so choosing like Spiegelmanchoosing to make Jews mice in
mouse.
And then here Spielberg andBluth choosing to make these
(22:34):
protagonists mice are sort of aninteresting choice that works to
push back against it, againstthat insult while still using
the metaphor, which I, you know,I find it all really
interesting.
And like some of the things thenthat like the questions as you
(22:55):
start to iterate it through andlike extrapolate, like
apparently there are no dogs inan American tale in Manhattan.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because they don't fit themetaphor.
And so we there literally wedon't see any dogs at all in the
entire movie.
Which is, you know, makes sensebased on the way the metaphor is
(23:17):
laid out.
Like, who are dogs in themetaphor?
It doesn't, they don't fit.
But then there's also, you know,now that we're looking at the
metaphor, like there are no morecats in America, they sing,
because they got rid of likeseven, but except Tiger.
Tiger's safe because he's liketamed to a certain extent.
(23:38):
He has friends who are mice.
And like even the way they drawhim, like he does, he doesn't
have the sort of big sharp teeththat the other cats are given.
He's like got this bright color,and he's this like flamboyance,
both to the way that he is drawnwith this big bushy tail and the
way he behaves, the way DomDeloise plays him.
(23:59):
This there's this flamboyance,which is why I say I read him as
gay, but also a simpleness thatit's not flattering, I don't
think, to the gay coding.
It's sort of like in the movieAirplane, which we talked about
on one episode.
There's like that one characterwho's meant to be gay, who's
(24:20):
like doing goofy shit in thebackground.
And that allows him to be thebutt of the joke for multiple
reasons.
There's some of that going onwith this Dom Deluisa's tiger,
which is another reason why Iclocked him as maybe gay.
Because in in 86, like that wassort of shorthand, that that
(24:42):
kind of goofiness.
In addition to the flamboyance.
It's a goofy flamboyance.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
So I want to stick with this for a second, with the
metaphor that, okay, so cats arethe oppressors, and there's one
who's safe.
And I'm thinking about, I hadthis experience, it was, and you
know about this, but theaudience doesn't.
It was in 2017, not long after Isaw Nope by Jordan Peel, where
(25:09):
uh sorry, get out, not longafter I saw Get Out, which is
what helped me truly understandthat I am not safe for black
folks.
Because at the end of Get Out,there's a moment where the
character Rose, who is white,hears police sirens, what she
thinks are police sirens, andshe gets this grin on her face
because she knows that she willwin in any situation.
(25:30):
And in this moment, whathappened was I was it's a local
political group that I was partof.
It was a like a mom's group.
We were connecting with a localBlack Panthers group to put
together a spaghetti dinner.
I had volunteered to helpcourier the food to our liaison
with another member of my groupwho knew where we were going.
(25:51):
I got lost and I ended up there,like had the GPS, but I was not
with the person I knew.
So the house that I was going towas like a duplex and I knocked
on the wrong door.
The woman who answered wasterrified of me.
And like immediately was like, Idon't know who you're looking
for and close the door.
And I realized like a whitewoman knocking on her door is
(26:12):
never good news.
So, reason I'm bringing this upis like this metaphor, this idea
that there is a cat who is safewhen the cats are the
oppressors, you have to makethem like flamboyantly
different.
And there's there will always bea separation, otherwise.
(26:36):
And um, gay coding in achildren's movie is interesting
as that being like what makesthem safe.
Although, if you know whatyou're worried about is like
literal like predation anddeath, but I just I find this
like fascinating because if youiterate it out, because like
what makes someone a cat iscorruption and abuse of power
(27:04):
and violence, straight upviolence, uh-huh.
Yeah.
Tiger is a vegetarian, we learn.
And that's like right there,that is an American tale, is the
abuse of power, violence,corruption punching down.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yeah.
And the movie makers actuallysort of know that.
Like we meet honest John at aunion hall.
Well, it's a at a pub, but it'slike a union hall kind of a
thing.
And there's they're having awake for a mouse who's been
killed by cats.
And John says, you know, he diedbefore he even had a chance to
vote.
I'ma fix that.
And he like, we see him writedown the dead mouse's name in a
(27:42):
book of like ghost voters.
So this, you know, thecorruption as part and parcel to
America.
Like it's in this, yeah, it'sactually in this movie.
Yeah.
The metaphor of the cats as theas a as oppressors, all
different kinds of oppressors,leading to this story about
(28:02):
organizing, about comingtogether.
And that story, like, we hearmultiple mice call for that, not
just Gussie, the sort of richwoman from uptown, but also
Bridget, who is anotherimmigrant who Tony Spamoni falls
in love with at first sight, isalso saying, like, if we just
got together, so there's likethere are these calls from the
(28:26):
top and the bottom of the classhierarchy to organize.
And then Fival is the one whoactually brings the mechanism
for the organizing from storiesthat he heard.
So the kind of underlying lessonis about organizing, but it's
also about imagination and thepower of story.
(28:49):
So we saw Fival escape.
He was sold into servitude inthis sweatshop.
He doesn't even spend one nightthere because the very first
night he's like, We need themouse with the really long hair.
And he starts tying bed sheetstogether and like slips out the
window.
And then it is his idea to likemake a mouse of Minsk.
(29:12):
And so it's imagination, butit's imagination fed by stories.
So this story about, you know,that chooses to make the
oppressors and the oppressedvisibly different species, is
also teaching us about theoppressed coming together and
(29:34):
using their imagination and thestories that they've collected
to make something bigger thanthemselves.
Which I think is maybe part ofwhy we loved it when we were
kids.
Like, because that's the kind ofa story, the kind of a lesson
that like really appealed, stilldoes, to I think you are and my
(29:54):
both of our like story-lovinghearts.
And it's a different, like thereare lessons in there, like that
you're pointing to about safetyand like signaling safety.
And it has to be flamboyantlydifferent than the danger,
especially for children.
(30:15):
But there are also lessons aboutthe power of story, the power of
the imagination, the power ofworking together.
Like shit goes wrong whilethey're actually like doing the
plan.
Like the mouse gets like theyrelease it too soon, and the
cats aren't where they'resupposed to be.
So they stop it and then it'stime to release it and they
can't get it moving again.
(30:36):
And like, you know, all kinds ofstuff.
Five alt is the one who in theend gets it moving again because
he brings a candle underneath arope that's holding it when
they're trying to untie it andcan't get it on tied.
So there's like, there arelessons about innovation and
imagination and story that likejust kind of gel together in a
way that is satisfying to storyconsumers like you and me.
(31:01):
So I want to talk, since we justtalked about flamboyantly
different, let's talk about ZomZeloise and Madeline Kahn's
characters for a moment.
Like, despite what I just saidabout the sort of satisfying
kind of lesson, I actually thinkthis movie would have been kind
of boring.
I don't know how satisfying itwould have been without those
comic relief pockets afforded byZom Zeloise and Madeline Kahn's
(31:29):
characters.
And I wanna at least ask thequestion, even if we don't come
up with an answer of like, whatdoes that say about the story
that I just named as beingsatisfied?
But I'm also saying, like, yeah,but it would have been pretty
forgettable without those twocharacters.
Like, do we actually need theselike silly, flamboyant vehicles
(31:53):
as a part of these lessons inorder for us to receive them?
Like, or does that indicate thatmaybe the rest of the
storytelling was only so so thatI'm suggesting that I wouldn't
have enjoyed the movie nearly asmuch without those two
characters?
Because we still could havegotten 80% of the story and the
things I just named as beingsatisfying without those two.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (32:17):
So I don't have an answer, but the question arises
for me when I'm like looking atthe movie as a whole and sort of
saying, like, yeah, I reallyenjoyed it.
And also, like, without thewowie and Dom Zeloise's like cat
dancing, like it's all right.
(32:37):
So was Fival voiced by a childactor?
Yeah, I believe so.
Fivel's voice actor was a mannamed Philip Glasser.
I don't know that person.
Okay.
I believe he was a child actor.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
So, like, my just off the cuff here theory is
because child actors are childactors.
This might just be thedifference between someone who's
a professional.
And so, like, you know, much ofthe film is like you're getting
the best performance you can outof someone who is very new to
acting versus two people who areprofessionals and professional
(33:17):
comedians at the top of theirgame.
SPEAKER_03 (33:19):
Yeah, that's a fair point.
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
That is a fair point.
SPEAKER_03 (33:21):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
And which is part of the reason why they included
Madeleine Kahn and Dom Deluise,and then like Christopher
Plummer.
This was back when it's now muchmore common to get known actors
to voice animated films.
But back then it was less, lesscommon.
SPEAKER_03 (33:39):
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point.
I actually I'll accept that.
That it's not a doesn'tinvalidate the power of the
storytelling, but just points toperhaps the immaturity and
inexperience of the protagonistactors.
Yeah.
I'll buy that.
I'll buy that.
Yeah, thank you.
So the last two things on mylist that I wanted to talk about
(34:03):
in this main episode, there's abig reveal that Fival discovers
first.
So Fivil's papa plays theviolin.
And so there are several momentsin New York where he hears the
violin and he's like, Papa,Papa, and he follows the sound
of the violin.
One of those times, he followsit into the den of the Mob
(34:26):
Street Maulers because Warren T.
Rat also plays the violin.
But while he's playing, he keepsmaking a mistake and he says,
Oh, it's this stupid nose.
And he pulls off the cone noseof the rat and reveals a cat
face.
And then once he's taken thenose off, he like does something
to his ears too, and cat earssort of unfurl underneath uh
(34:50):
like fake mouse ears or ratears.
And so Fival has seen it.
That's when he gets captured.
So he can't warn the other mice.
But it becomes clear to all ofthe other mice later, and like
Gussie is leading the chargewith the Mouse of Minsk
automaton, and she says, You'llnever get another penny out of a
(35:10):
mouse, Warren.
Anyway, I wanted to sort ofunpack with you a little bit.
Like, we've talked about themetaphor of these animals quite
a bit.
Like, what is the metaphor of acat in rat's clothing?
Like, that feels really ripe.
Like, in fact, initially I was Iwas a little uncomfortable as I
(35:33):
started to ask myself thatquestion, because we've got him
as this middleman.
I'm like, is that a Jewish spotas the middleman?
I don't think it is, in fact,because we've got these sort of
violent criminals, and then thisguy sort of as painting himself
as the middleman, like, you payme and we make sure that you're
(35:55):
protected.
It's much more sort of mafiosokind of coding than like Jewish
merchant middleman.
Mm-hmm.
But there's like I'm stillunpacking it.
He is the only rat that we meet,and he's not actually a rat.
And there's something, there issomething like just in the
language that we in English, theway we talk about it.
(36:16):
Like a rat.
Exactly.
And like, or like a rat fink,like a double cross, someone who
double crosses is a rat.
And so to have this fake rat whois actually one of the
oppressors, like pretending tobe a rat, like there's a certain
like truthiness almost to thatlike visual metaphor of a cat in
(36:42):
rat's clothing.
But I'm not sure, like, when Ilook at it as the bigger piece
of the literary metaphor thatgives us the power of
organizing, I'm not quite surewhat to do with him.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Well, I mean, I one thing I'm thinking about,
because you are talking you weresaying like it's cognizant of
the corruption in America.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
And in the late 19th century, that's when you had
like the bosses.
And so you have, and I mean,hell, like we don't have to go
back that far.
Populism is so often someonesaying, like, I'm here for the
little man.
And meanwhile, I'm lining my ownpockets, and I'm actually like a
(37:26):
crony of the big bosses.
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
I mean, actually, that's interesting.
The way you just said, like, thelittle man, like in literally
this the mice, the smallercreature.
Yeah.
That's an interesting point.
SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
So, like, there's, I mean, we have a long history of
that, of populist politicalfigures who claim that they are
there to protect the people whoare just trying to live their
lives, just trying to get by,and who are just grifters.
Yeah.
And are selling them out,literally.
Yeah.
(38:01):
I mean, we're seeing that rightnow.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the cat in rat's clothing isa politician to a certain
extent, in this extendedmetaphor of American tale.
Yeah, I like that.
That works for me.
One thing you said about like,so at one point, Gussie says, I
always try to look out for thoseless fortunate than me, which is
everyone.
(38:24):
She's so and like you shouldhate her, right?
But somehow she manages to belike Madeline Khan is such a
such an actress.
Like, she manages to walk thatline to actually make it like
somehow charming.
Anyway, yeah.
All right.
So then the last thing, thisfilm, I don't think it passes
Beckdell.
There are multiple named femalecharacters.
(38:47):
There's there are many.
And they even talk to each othera couple of them.
Like Mama Mauskowitz and Tanyaslash Tilly talk to one another,
but they talk about five ofthem.
So, and I don't think likeBridget, who is the working
class immigrant like organizer,and Gussie, the rich uptown
(39:11):
organizer, like they don't talkto one another.
That may be all of them.
That may be all of all of thenamed female characters.
Like most of the mice we meetare male.
So it does not pass Bechtel,unfortunately.
Which is not surprising for a1986 movie about immigrants made
(39:31):
by two men.
Because that is, we talked aboutit a little bit when we talked
about Avalon.
That's like especially in a sortof, it's not exactly
self-insert, but it's a littlebit by telling my grandpa's
story kind of a thing.
But it makes a certain amount ofsense that he was they, these
two men thinking about their owngrandfathers, not their
(39:52):
grandmothers.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
And I think that I also like we've talked about it
to some extent, and you pointedout the sort of gay coding this
cat as tiger as gay to make himsafe in a kid's movie in the
80s, you know, and some of thelike the irony in that or the
tension in that, although it wasall about the kind of forward
(40:15):
presentation as opposed toactual sex, right?
There's, I mean, none of these.
Well, Tony Spumoni, who falls inlove immediately with Bridget,
like there is the hint ofromance and sex between him and
Bridget, but that's it in thewhole movie.
So, but I I think that is sortof worth naming this in addition
(40:37):
to the gender dynamic, thesexual orientation dynamic, and
the kind of shorthand ofnon-toxic masculinity.
Maybe, and maybe this is aboutme as much as about the movie
makers.
I will own that.
But like the fact that I readthat Dom Deloise's non-toxic
masculinity and tiger, I readthat as gay coding.
SPEAKER_01 (40:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
I don't think I'm alone, but you know, that's
worth I just felt that's worthnaming.
SPEAKER_02 (41:03):
Just as oh, so he's a vegetarian, which okay, that
goes against like cats biology,but right this is also this is
in the 1980s where eating quichewas considered queer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:17):
So, like that that's he's wearing this like like two
small little t-shirt.
Like they all wear clothes, butlike all Tiger wears is this
little t-shirt that's like ababy's all tea sort of thing on
him because he's a big floofycat.
SPEAKER_02 (41:29):
So I that I read also as sort of gay coding in
terms of what he was wearing.
It's also like Dom Delouise didthis, it is not the only part
where he was queer-coated.
Right, right.
There are other places where Iknow he was intentionally
queer-coated.
Blazing saddles, for example.
He's a very small part, but itis very much queer-coated.
SPEAKER_03 (41:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's something that showsup in this movie.
So before I just I do my quicklike synopsis of what we talked
about, I'll just say like it wasenjoyable.
I wouldn't put it at the top ofyour list, but like if it's on,
watch it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Somewhere out there's still a great song.
SPEAKER_03 (42:06):
Yeah, that's actually really interesting.
In The Shit We Forgot to Say,which listeners, that is a
patron bonus.
I want to talk more about thatsong because I think that it was
Linda Ronstadt and James Ingramproduced the radio hit.
And I want to talk about thesong a little bit.
Okay, okay.
But yeah.
No cats in America is a greatsong, too.
Okay.
I do not remember that one.
(42:27):
So and Tiger and Five will singa song about the fact that they
won't need to be lonely anymorebecause they have a friend,
which is also pretty sweet.
Aww.
So, yeah.
So let me just remind you here'swhat we talked about.
We talked at some length aboutthis movie as portraying an
immigrant story, specifically aJewish immigrant story that is
(42:47):
not universal, but is fairlytypical of a lot a number of
American Jewish families.
And what the movie makers, Ithink, were going for, which was
really to sort of show theseimmigrants are Americans.
I think they told us that to acertain extent.
What they showed us was thepower of organizing, the power
(43:11):
of people, even with less power,even those in the oppressed
category, when working togetherto achieve great things and sort
of prevail over the oppressors.
That's what they showed us.
They told us that theseimmigrants are part of the
American story, in my opinion.
(43:31):
We talked at great length aboutthe metaphor of making these
characters animals and theextended metaphor there.
We put it in contrast to ArtSpiegelman's mouse graphic
novels, where he sort of hassomewhat rigid kind of species
and ethnicity or nationalityconnections.
(43:54):
This film does not do that.
So there are Jewish mice, butthere are also Catholic mice.
And the cats, therefore, thereare Cossack mice, but there are
also mafioso mice, and there arealso just You mean cats.
Oh, yeah, thank you.
There are Cossack cats.
Thank you.
And there are mafioso cats, andthere are also just violent
(44:15):
murderer cats, and there areorganized crime cats here in
America, even though the songsaid there are no cats in
America.
So that's working differentlythan what Spiegelman was doing,
and also doing some of the samethings by making the oppressor
literally stronger and morepowerful than the oppressed,
(44:39):
which only makes the story thatI think that they showed us
about organizing morecompelling.
We also talked about thatorganizing lesson.
It's not just about like gettingtogether.
There also is an element ofimagination and of like pulling
(45:00):
from our stories and making themserve us in the organizing.
Through we see Fivul escapingservitude through his knowledge
of the Rapunzel story, we seeFivul actually like giving the
mechanism through the Mouse ofMinsk this kind of fictionalized
(45:24):
golem version or version of theGolem story as the means by
which the mice are able toprevail against the cats and
send them off to Hong Kong.
There's a little bit about classin this film, though not a great
deal of critique, especiallysince we have the person of
(45:44):
Gussie Mausheimer, who is filthyrich and sort of one, very much
one of the mice.
Even though she keeps remindingus how she's different, she's an
uptown mouse.
She knows that being rich isn'teverything because she is rich
and she has everything.
So she constantly reminds us ofthe difference between her and
(46:05):
these downtown mice.
And yet she's one of them.
She gets to be the leader, butshe's one of them.
And so there is definitely anunderstanding of class
distinction in this film, verymuch so.
And yet, very little critique.
I didn't even talk about that atall that much, but having like
Gussie there, I think is youcan't help but see the.
(46:27):
I mean, she names it all thetime, and we see it in what
she's wearing and the way shetalks, all of that.
We talked at some length aboutthe comedy brought by Madeline
Kahn and by Dom Delawise.
I laughed out loud and made youlaugh out loud at Madeline
Kahn's, we need a wowie.
(46:48):
I wondered if the fact that theycarried so much of my enjoyment
of the film invalidated thestorytelling of the film.
You offered maybe actually whatI was reacting to was the
inexperience and immaturity ofthe lead actor who was a child
actor.
I think that you're probablyright about that.
(47:11):
We talked a little bit about thepower of the metaphor of a cat
in rat's clothing.
And not at that point, but as apart of the metaphor of the cats
and like the one safe cat, whowas not the one in rat's
clothing, but he wanted us tobelieve it was him.
(47:31):
You told a story about sort ofrealizing that, you know, even
though you know you're one ofthe good ones, you still look
like a cat to someone who haslived life kind of as a mouse in
American culture.
And so that was like aninteresting kind of personal
aside that this movie brought upfor us.
And then I landed on the BeckDel Test, this movie does not
(47:55):
pass, which is not a surprisefor a 1986 movie made primitive
primarily by two men about late19th century, where we just
weren't telling women's storiesmuch.
And so the fact that though wehave at least four named female
characters, they don't talk toeach other about anything other
than five is not really asurprise.
(48:18):
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Anything?
No, we just we spent a littletime talking about how Dom
Deloise's character seems codedas gay.
Yeah.
And yeah, how that feels alittle ironic for a children's
movie in the 80s that he's safe.
SPEAKER_03 (48:32):
Yeah, there's some tension in that.
Although it also makes a certainamount of sense because sort of
masculinity, traditional slashtoxic masculinity is what's not
violent, yeah.
Yeah, is what's not safe, iswhat's dangerous about these
cats.
Especially, I don't thinkthere's a single female cat that
(48:53):
we see.
In future movies, there will bebecause a tiger ends up with
Miss Kitty, but in this movie,there's not a single female cat.
And so the danger is definitelyassociated with the masculinity,
you know, through correlation.
And so to take that danger away,you sort of dial back the
(49:14):
masculinity, but it's still amale cat, you end up with a
queer coating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:23):
What are you gonna bring me next week?
So I'm bringing you my deepthoughts on the movie
Highlander.
Oh my god.
There can be only one.
There can be only one.
Our stepfather loved that movieso much.
Yes.
And the TV show, but we're justdoing the movie.
Okay.
Go on to live forever.
(49:46):
Anyway.
So I will look forward to it.
SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
We'll see you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(50:10):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
(50:33):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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