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I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else.
On this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie returns to an icon of 90s era feminism, the animated MTV television show Daria. Just like the eponymous Daria Morgendorffer, the people around Tracie thought she was a "misery chick" who wore her feminism, sarcasm, and impatience with the idiocy of the rest of the world on her sleeve (although Emily objects to that characterization of her beloved sister).
Still, in her early 20s, Tracie found a lot to love about this pop culture take on how smart and disaffected young women navigate unreasonable expectations in a chaotic world. In addition, Daria was savvy enough to let smart jokes land without explaining them to the audience and self-aware enough to offer cultural commentary that doesn't let Daria herself off the hook for her role in perpetuating unjust systems. It also does a great job of holding a mirror up to reality when it comes to the psychology of high intelligence, since recognizing the brutal nature of the world can lead to poor mental health outcomes that look like low self-esteem. And even though Daria falls victim to some of the ideological purity testing of 90s feminism, it also offers some pretty great examples of feminism in action.
La la la la...Before the theme song is stuck in your head forever, throw on your headphones and listen to this episode!
Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, feminism, animation, mtv, women, pop culture, cultural commentary, psychology, mental health, comedy, comedy podcast, cult classic, millennial nostalgia, mike judge, 90s television, daria, daria morgendorffer, social justice
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
But in the end, Daria says to Jane, it is not
your fault that guy died.
And Jane says to Daria, peopledon't think.
And you do.
And this death is forcing themto think.
And what they're saying to youis, How do I deal with the fact
that I'm thinking?
How do you manage thinking allthe time until I get back into
(00:20):
my vegetable state?
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
(00:42):
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the late 90s animated TV showDaria with my sister, Emily Guy
Birken, and with you.
(01:02):
Let's dive in.
Okay, I'm pretty sure youremember this show.
I don't think we watched ittogether because I was a senior
in college when it came out,which means you were a freshman
in college.
But I know you've seen it.
So tell me, what is in your headabout Daria?
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
So I remember that it's a spin-off from Beavis and
Butthead, which I don't doesn'treally compute like how Daria
lives in the same universe asBeavis and Butthead.
I like I just know that's afact.
And I remember the animationstyle.
And there's one specific episodethat I remember.
(01:40):
Oh.
And actually, it's just a detailof it, which is Daria is trying
to write a short story, like afiction story, and she's having
trouble.
And so the teacher, who is likeclearly a space cadet, says, you
know, sometimes havingboundaries lets your creativity
fly free, or something likethat.
(02:01):
And so said, Why don't youinclude a card game in the
story?
And so she ends up writing thestory, and the card game is so
not at all important to it, justto meet that.
And for some reason that's stuckin my head.
Huh.
And in my head, Jeanine Garofflois the voice of Daria.
(02:23):
But I think even then I knewlike it wasn't, but I just
wanted it to be.
Same energy, not JanineGarofflo, though.
But that kind of like flataffect.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The woman who voiced Daria isnamed Tracy Grandstaff.
She spells Tracy wrong.
Actually, I spell Tracy wrong,but she doesn't spell like I do.
But yeah, Tracy Grandstaff wasDaria's voice.
So that's what I've got.
Okay.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout Daria today?
Well, Daria was kind of likestuck in my head in part because
(02:53):
our stepfather, Daria, is calledMisery Chick.
The Misery Chick, in fact, inthe season finale of the first
season.
And our stepdad, I guess, waswatching this show and was like,
hey, that's Tracy.
Daria's like Tracy.
Like, so it's sort of stuck inmy head.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
I mean, I earned it a little bit.
No.
I mean, I know I'm the one withthe I'm a ray of fucking
sunshine.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
I thought you that mug.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
You did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, it was more than that.
But, you know, Daria, like,she's very smart.
She takes no guff.
She like makes lots of likequippy, sarcastic comments.
Like, our family has the jokeabout the what century is this?
Because right around the sametime as Daria was out when you
graduated from college.
(03:49):
I'm just, I know you know thisstory, but I'm telling our
listeners, like, I was in thetiny one hotel in tiny Gambier,
Ohio.
And the poor young man who wasworking the front desk, he had
to like, I had to hang up andcall back so he could make the
connection I wanted him to make.
And like, full sneer, like, Ithink my lip was actually like
up in like an Elvis sneer.
(04:10):
I was like, what century isthis?
Which is a total, except Dariawould have said, I thought this
was the 20th century.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
21st at that point.
It was right.
It was 2000.
I do want to make sure that itis entirely clear you had hung
up by that point.
The poor young man could nothear you.
I'm not sure that I hadactually.
You had.
I'm not sure that I had.
You hung up and you were like,what century is this?
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
I don't think I did, but because I have a memory of
this poor boy being like, sorry,like on the other side of the
line.
Anyway, I still have the sameoutlook, but I'm slightly, I
give slightly more grace now inmy middle age, I think.
Slightly more.
Anyway, I've softened a bit.
Anyway, that's why Dario wasimportant to me.
(04:59):
I'm not sure why it showed upnow, except that I guess in my
brain, I thought I was like,it's time for another animated
piece, which I just did animatedlike a few episodes ago.
So obviously, animated is reallyimportant to me, which is no
surprise to regular listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
It's kind of our thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
It's very much your thing.
It's kind of important to me.
So no surprise to our listeners.
So anyway, that's why Daria,that's what's at stake for me,
is that to to at least to somemembers of our family, I bore a
striking resemblance to Daria.
So that's why.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination,
and then I'll remind you a bitabout the show.
So I want to talk a bit aboutlike this show was Daria herself
(05:41):
was in many ways very self-awareand didn't like hide that from
the viewers.
And so there was a degree towhich it really like did not
talk down to the viewers.
It just like told the smart jokeand expected you to get it,
which is kind of refreshing foran MTV show.
I wonder, I was never a Beavisand Butthead viewer because I
(06:04):
just found those two guys.
I didn't find them funny.
But I wonder if there was adegree to which they, as
anti-heroes, were the butt ofthe joke.
And there was still some of thatbecause Daria was a recurring
character on Beavis andButthead.
So I don't know.
I never watched it, but it makesme wonder because this show does
(06:24):
not dumb down the jokes orexplain the jokes for the
viewer.
Like they just expect you to getit, which is kind of cool.
There's through some minorcharacters, Jody and Mac, who
are both black, we actually getsome reckoning or at least
acknowledgement of the role thatracism plays in people of
(06:48):
color's lives, and a particularsmart people of color who like
Jodi and Daria are in many wayscounterparts, but Jodi has a
totally different way of dealingwith the way she sees the world,
the smart, same smart ways thatshe sees the world as Daria.
And it's at least in partbecause of race.
(07:11):
And I think that's a reallyinteresting thing from the late
90s, early 2000s.
Jodi actually gets her ownspin-off.
I think it was originally meantto be a show.
It ended up being, I believe, afeature film, not for the like
direct to TV, but a film lengthtreatment rather than episodic.
But I think that's also aninteresting thing that Jody then
gets her own spin-off.
As a result of that kind ofreckoning with race, we see the
(07:33):
degree to which being cynical isactually a privilege position.
Like it takes privilege in orderto be cynical, which I think is
something that we can wrestlewith a bit, you and me.
I also want to talk about sortof the assumption that this film
reifies and really like leans onthat being smart means being
depressed, that those two thingslike are necessarily go
(07:57):
together, or at least beingperceived that way.
And there's sort of reckoningwith being smart and sort of not
caring about the things thatother kids care about, which
includes like being popular andlike how one looks, but it also
includes romance, which isinteresting and gets kind of
poked a little bit, which feelsreal.
(08:19):
Like that actually reads usreally real.
So I want to talk about that abit.
And then finally, there's a wayin which Daria again is very
self-aware and aware of like thepsychology of what's going on in
the background of everyone inher life, including herself,
that and we also see from thevery beginning that she is
identified as having lowestself-esteem.
(08:41):
So there's something like I'mnot sure what where I'm going
with that, but I want to hold itup to the light and look at it.
So that's where we're going.
So I'm not gonna give you plotsummaries because it's a TV
show.
There were four seasons.
I did not re-watch every singleepisode.
I rewatched the whole firstseason in preparation, but I did
not watch every single episode.
(09:02):
So I'm gonna start, I'm gonnagive you the main characters the
way that we've done for other TVshows.
So I'll start with DariaMorgendorfer.
She is a sophomore at LawndaleHigh in the season, in the first
season.
So presumably she advancesthrough grades in the other
seasons.
And in fact, Jody, the movieabout Jody is sort of
(09:25):
post-college.
And I believe the final seasonof Daria was the kids like
preparing to go off to school.
So they've moved to a new town.
She's new at Lawndale, and sheis kind of alternative, we would
have called it in the late 90s.
You know, she's wearing like askirt and combat boots and a
(09:46):
green blazer that she alwayswears.
The we get a lot from thecredits screen with a song by
one of the members of Riot Girlsthat's like sort of tuneless and
like it was super cool in '97with a the little chorus of la
la la la la, which is gonnahaunt my dreams now from having
(10:08):
like binged the whole firstseason over the past few days.
Anyway, Daria is long-suffering.
Her younger sister, Quinn, isthe president of the fashion
club.
She is a freshman.
She is very popular because shehas super bouncy hair and
equally bouncy boobs.
(10:29):
She wears a little like babydoll t-shirt and jeans all the
time.
She does not want to be seenwith her older sister and in
fact disavows her and tries toconvince her friends that Daria
is like her cousin or somethingrather than her sister.
We have both of their parents,Mr.
and Mrs.
Morgendorfer.
(10:50):
They have first names, Jake andI can't remember mom's first
name.
It doesn't matter.
She is a very high-achieving,maybe lawyer, maybe, I don't
know, it's not clear, but thehigh achieving professional,
like always wearing like skirtsuits and high heels and things
and having very important phonecalls.
And she knows she needs to besupportive of her daughters, but
(11:13):
it's this sort of lip service,so that everything either of
them says is responded to with,great, that's great.
Until it's something she doesn'tlike, and then, you know, these
weird things happen.
Dad is like kind of clueless,and sometimes mom will be like,
back me up, Jake.
(11:34):
And he's like, um, yeah, withthis like, you know, deer in the
headlights look, like, what'syour mother said?
You know, that sort of thing.
He also has a professional job.
We're not sure what it is.
Darry's best friend, Jane Lane,is very good at art.
She has an asymmetrical haircut.
She also wears skirts and tall,much taller boots that lace up.
(11:59):
She has, yes, Emily, just youjust marked her ear.
She has earrings like all theway along her cartilage, up and
down her ear, like rings, silverrings.
And she is equally sort ofdeadpan.
Well, no, she's equally cynical,slightly less deadpan.
And they become friendsimmediately in the low
(12:20):
self-esteem class, which I'llget to.
There's also Kevin and Britney,who are the quarterback and a
cheerleader, respectively.
They are a couple.
There's Jody and Mac, who Imentioned briefly, they're like
the only two black people,apparently in all of Lawdale.
They also apparently are acouple.
(12:41):
Mac, Kevin, the quarterback,regularly calls Mac Mac Daddy
every single time.
Mac goes, don't call me that.
Every time.
He responds to the question andthen says, and don't call me
that.
Then we have their teachers.
There are a couple of otherstudents who are sort of minor
recurring characters, like themembers of the fashion club, or
(13:03):
there's a really like a geek whothinks he's like a I don't know
what the word is.
He thinks he can get in theirpants.
Like he's always giving theselike terrible one-liners, but
he's a Pasanova type.
Yes.
His name is Charles.
Everyone calls him Upchuck.
And then their teachers.
We see a number of theirteachers in a recurring way.
(13:26):
The one that you rememberprobably is Mr.
O'Neill, who can't remember thekids' names at all.
He's the English teacher, but heis also the teacher for the
self-esteem class.
The history teacher is like veryhigh strung and like very
sarcastic and gets agitatedreally easily, so that like one
(13:46):
eye kind of bulges because he'sso like agitated.
Their science teacher is a womanwho is like coming out of a
divorce and is always talkingabout the she's the ex-husband
and sort of like projecting hisbehavior on all of the boys in
the classroom.
Their principal is Mrs.
(14:08):
Lee, who is struggling with thefact that the high school needs
more money and makes somequestionable choices as a result
of wanting more money.
And there are probably others,but those are the major players.
So this movie, excuse me, thisTV show passes Beckdell flying
(14:30):
colors every single episode.
Like, not just like I have tolook across the entire oove to
find it.
Like it passes Beckdel with noproblem.
Jane and Daria talk about stuffbesides boys and men all the
time, as do Daria and Quinn.
Like it passes.
I think one might argue it'seven feminist.
I think you could argue that.
(14:51):
I mean, it is this particularbrand of feminism from that late
90s time period.
But at one point, Daria, theyactually put in the mouth of
Daria, it's not in the firstseason, but I read about it in
future seasons.
There's a moment where she says,People always call me a feminist
when I say things thatdistinguish me from a doormat or
from a prostitute.
And so there's a degree towhich, like, it's just assumed,
(15:16):
which is another reason Isuspect that our stepfather like
associated her with me, right?
But one of the things that Iwant to talk about that kind of
possibly undercuts that is theway in which there is also
assumed that Daria is miserablebecause of her intellect and
(15:37):
maybe because of her feminism.
In the final episode of thefirst season, they actually
address this directly.
The episode is called The MiseryChick.
So in this episode, an alumni ofthe high school who was the star
quarterback is coming back.
It's only been a few years, likethree or four years, and he took
the team to state championships.
And this guy's a jerk.
(15:58):
Like we and Daria witness himproposition or insult every
single person that he meets.
And he's just terrible.
He and Jane meet him, and likeDaria says, excuse me.
And he's like, You gotta bekidding, I'm not gonna talk to
you.
And she's like, I don't want totalk to you.
And he's like, You just saidexcuse me.
And she's like, Yeah, you'releaning on my locker.
(16:19):
Anyway, he's a jerk to them.
And he says, he's the one whosays the phrase misery chick.
You're one of those miserychicks who thinks about how
terrible the world is just todistract everyone because from
the fact that you're a loser,something like that.
As he's walking away, Jane sayssomething like she wishes he
(16:41):
would die.
And it's just like a sarcasticjoke.
But then almost immediately thegoalpost, which they were going
to name after him, falls on himand he dies.
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
I mean, it's supposed to be funny.
And then all of a sudden, all ofher classmates and even one of
her teachers are like coming toDaria for advice on how to like
handle being miserable andfeeling so rotten because she
thinks about dark things all thetime, because she's always
miserable.
And this is like hard for Dariabecause at the end, she and Jane
(17:18):
actually have a conversation.
Jane had been avoiding her, andthen they actually do meet and
talk.
And Jane was feeling awful aboutthe fact that she wished for
this man's death and then hedied.
And she didn't think that Dariawould get it because Daria was
like making jokes about it andjust being sort of like,
whatever, he was a jerk.
(17:39):
And Daria's like, no, I'm I'msorry he died, but that doesn't
make him a good person.
He was still a terrible person.
And then Daria says, you know,people keep coming to me because
you're miserable, Daria, but I'mnot miserable.
I'm just, this is how I see theworld, or whatever.
I don't remember the exact theway she talks about it, it
doesn't really matter.
But in the end, Daria says toJane, it is not your fault that
(18:02):
guy died.
And Jane says to Daria, peopledon't think.
And you do.
And this death is forcing themto think.
And what they're saying to youis, How do I deal with the fact
that I'm thinking?
How do you manage thinking allthe time until I get back into
my vegetable state?
So the show addressed directlythis perception that Daria's
(18:27):
intellect makes her miserable,which is interesting.
And I appreciate it.
Like because we hear fromDaria's own mouth, I'm not
miserable.
But I'm not sure the showactually shows us that she's not
miserable, right?
Like she in the first episode inthe in the pilot, she ends up in
(18:49):
this low self-esteem class.
And while the class itself isridiculous, and she and Jane end
up getting out of it becauseJane has taken it six times and
knows all of the right answersto the test.
The implication is not that theydon't have low self-esteem.
Quite the opposite.
Like the test was on tosomething, it's just that the
(19:11):
school doesn't know what to doabout it in actuality.
SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
And you said this before we started recording.
The reason why she ends up inthat class is because when she
started at the school, she hadto take a psychographic.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
A psychographic test that put her in that class.
That put her in this class thather sister didn't end up in.
And interestingly, when herparents hear, like, this
actually was very funny.
Her dad's like, what's wrongwith you, Daria?
And the mom's like, this isn'tgonna mean I'm gonna have to go
to like parent teacherconferences or anything, is it?
(19:48):
So that actually was very funny.
I laughed out loud at when thedad, he actually like smacks the
table, like low self-esteem.
What's wrong with you?
We always tell you you'rewonderful.
Oh my goodness.
(20:08):
So I guess what I'm trying totease at is like the show, well,
like the showrunners are like,yeah, people think this, and
like they're wrong, but they'realso right.
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
I do want to like I wanna stick with this for a
minute because I feel likethat's not necessarily like I I
feel like what they're doing isthey're reflecting a reality in
some ways.
Yes, because it's not thatpeople of high intelligence like
Daria and Jane have lowself-esteem in the way that like
(20:41):
we think of it as as like lowself-worth, it's that they have
a clearer understanding ofreality, which leads to a better
understanding of their place inthe world.
And so, do you recall there'sthe moment in the greater
Heicheker's Guide to the Galaxylike trilogy that became a
(21:04):
five-book series, beingincreasingly poorly named.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I don't remember which bookit's in, but there's a point
where they put ZaphodBebelbrocks into a machine that
shows you just how unimportantyou are.
Yeah, it shows you your place inthe universe, but his has been
his has been like and he wasplaced, they created an
alternate universe for him.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Right.
So he's the only one who evercomes out not insane.
Yes.
Yes, I do recall.
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
So I'm thinking of that because, and like Zaphod
Beal Brocks, I have for yearsthought that like he is a
smarter and more charismaticversion of Trump with more arms
and heads.
But he went into it supremelyconfident and came out of it
feeling like I'm the mostimportant person in the entire
(21:54):
universe.
Because that's what the box toldhim.
Because that's what the box toldhim.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Uh huh.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
And it feels It feels like, and I know this is
something that I have seen overand over and over again.
Like, very intelligent peoplewhom I love are like burdened
with reality.
And it's not that they have lowself-esteem, it's that they're
they're burdened with reality.
And then like dipshits have likeegos the size of Mount Rushmore.
(22:25):
Because they don't, they're notsmart enough to recognize how
little they are.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Yeah, I think that may be right.
I mean, at one point, Dariasays, this is in a later season.
I I watched it in a clip.
Daria says to Jody, actually,because Jody's like, you're so
negative all the time and itdoesn't serve you.
And Daria says, I'm too smartand too sensitive to live in
this world with the sister Ihave and not be this way.
It's how I cope.
So I think you're exactly right.
(22:51):
There's another scene where shegoes to a therapist and she
basically says exactly what'swrong with each of her family
members, including herself.
She says to the therapist, Iactively work to make people
dislike me so that when they do,I'm not disappointed.
So, yes, I think you areprobably right.
Like we see her over and overagain like not like a situation
(23:15):
and figure out a way to likemanipulate that situation,
herself out of it, or the chainto change things somehow.
And she also is very aware oflike relational dynamics.
In an early episode, she and hersister both end up at this party
(23:35):
at a classmate's house whoseparents are out of town.
And at the end of the night,they like they lose their ride,
like whatever.
And Quinn says, Should we callmom and dad?
And Daria says, and give themthat much power?
No way, we're walking.
So there's like this constantassessment of the power
(23:58):
dynamics, the whatever, like, soI think you you are probably
right.
And to your point about sort ofreflecting reality, I want to
sort of stay with kind of theperceptions of how this
disaffected, smart teenage girlis, and like the way that this
reflects it.
So in that episode where they goto the party, these two boys hit
(24:20):
on them, hit on Daria and Jane.
And Daria gives them, they'relike, Where you girls been all
our lives?
And Daria says, We've beenstanding in this room, we were
born in this room, and we'vebeen waiting, wondering if we
would die in this room alone.
And then you came along.
(24:40):
And one of the guys goes, Hey,she likes you.
And so there's this, like, youknow, to fit the stereotype.
Like, she is not interested inromance, or at least not with
like certainly not with thatdude, right?
Jane ends up going into themakeout room, aka the laundry
(25:03):
room, with one of them.
Jane lies about it to Dariabecause she's a little bit
ashamed of it.
So it's like I watched that one.
I was like, I wonder if Daria ismeant to be like asexual.
We mostly weren't using thatterm in the broadest cultural
sense back in the late 90s, butcertainly asexuality existed, or
(25:25):
if she just has high standards,or like Jane certainly isn't,
because she's like, I mean, he'sdumb, but he's cute.
And so she like goes into thelaundry room with him.
But in later episodes, we seeDaria has a big crush on Jane's
older brother, Trent, who islike still living at home and
trying to make his band work,which is called Mystic Spiral.
(25:50):
But Daria says that sounds likea doors cover band that plays at
brew pubs.
To which Trent's like, oh, maybeyou're right.
What if we spelled it with twowhys?
We spell mystic with two whys.
So, but Zarya has a big crush onhim, which I think is also like
(26:15):
reflecting of reality, right?
Like she eschews all the thingsthat she's supposed to want, but
she's still a teenage girl.
And so, like having her havethis crush on Trent, which is
unclear if it's required or not.
Like, at least in the firstseason, nothing actually happens
(26:35):
between them.
But like, there are momentswhere, like, so in an episode,
they end up going toAlternapalooza together.
Jane and Zarya and Trent andTrent's bandmate Jesse.
They all go to Alternapalooza,and like Daria, like Trent and
Jesse will say something, andZarya will think some snide
(26:56):
remark.
And we hear it, but she's notsaying it.
Her lips stays still.
Eventually, Jane's like, say it,Zarya.
Say it.
Whatever you're thinking, sayit.
Because they're gonna go on likethis for hours.
And then they drive past somelike big billboard that said, if
you lived here, you'd be home bynow.
(27:16):
And Zarya like forgets she'strying to be quiet and whatever,
demure, and she goes, and bebored out of your mind.
And then she immediately likecovers her mouth.
But the two guys think it'sfunny.
So, like watching Daria kind ofdo those things that are like
normal teenage girl things andlike have it like the way she's
(27:41):
thinking about herself.
And I find that to your pointabout being like a reflection of
reality, like I actually reallyappreciated that.
Like, I think that probably, Imean, I was a little bit older
when this, you know, I like Isaid, I was a senior in college
when this first came out.
So, but like if I had been 15when I first watched Aria, I
(28:05):
think I would have been likereally validated.
Sure.
By that in particular, that sortof like, she acts like she
doesn't care about it, but she'sstill, you know, she still has a
crush on Trent or whatever.
So that was something that,like, just the way you said,
like, reflection of reality withthe intellect and the the weight
(28:29):
of the world just reminded me ofthat.
So staying on that, actually,and the the weight of the world,
let's talk about Jodi, the blackcounterpart, and sort of what
she says to Daria and kind ofwhere that lands.
There's an episode, I think thesame one, where Daria says, I'm
(28:49):
too smart and too sensitive forthis world and a sister like
mine.
In that same scene, Daria issort of giving Jodi a hard time
about being like seeing theworld as it is and still being
like accommodating in some way.
Jodi says to her, You don'tsomething like you don't know
(29:09):
what it's like, right?
Like, you don't know what it'slike for me.
Like at home, I can just be Jodiand I can say what I think and I
can just be me.
But at Lawndale, I have to bethe queen of the Negroes, and I
have to be a role model for allof the other black students at
Lawndale High.
Oops, where did they all go?
And so there's this veryself-aware moment where
(29:34):
effectively Jody says, you know,it's a privilege that you can be
cynical, you can actually outloud be cynical the way that you
are.
Jodi says to her, Sometimes Iwish I could, I could be more
like you, but I can't.
Daria says, Sometimes I wish Icould be more like you.
And Jodi makes a like asatisfied face.
(29:54):
And Daria says, I didn't say allthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
So the idea of cynicism as privilege is
something I've been thinkingabout a lot, especially
politically over the past 10years.
Just, you know, so often we'llhave people say, like, both
parties are exactly the same.
I'm sitting it out.
And that kind of cynicism onlycomes from people who are pretty
(30:20):
darn sure they're not going tobe rounded up because of the
color of their skin.
Mm-hmm.
Are pretty sure that they're notgoing to lose, you know,
affirming healthcare because oftheir gender identity.
I went to the uh women's marchin Madison in 2017.
And as we were leaving, we raninto this guy, give you three
(30:42):
guesses as to what race he was,who as we're leaving said, you
know, Obama used their ownstrikes, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, to us aswe're leaving the women's march
in January 2017.
And it was just like, what whatdo you think you're doing right
(31:04):
now, dude?
Like, you weren't here marchingwith us.
Like, if you were marching withus and also said that, like,
I'll give you a teensy bit moregrace.
You're just sitting on a benchyelling at women who are worried
about what's going to be coming.
And that that kind of cynicismreminds me of when I was in high
school and I had to do a groupproject and I did all the
(31:27):
writing for something for thefirst like third of it.
One of my group mates came inand just sat with a red pen on
the thing that I had written.
And it was just like you're nothelping in any way.
And it's, it's, you're soprivileged to be able to sit
there and say, I point out thisis wrong and this is wrong and
(31:47):
that's wrong and that's wrong.
Okay, what solutions do youhave?
Like, you have the privilege ofcynicism because nothing bad is
gonna happen to you.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
So that message comes across from Jody to Daria
on multiple occasions, like notjust the one I just named, where
she says, I wish sometimes Iwish it could be more like you.
In the episode with the footballplayer who dies, Jody's on the
student council.
And so she's giving a speech.
They're renaming a new goalpostafter this dude before he dies.
(32:21):
And she says, she comes over andshe says, Daria, I'm having a
hard time with Ice with myspeech.
I can I read it to you.
And she's like, she starts outand she's like, Welcome, fellow
students and faculty and honoredalumni.
Do you have any ideas?
Like nothing.
She's written nothing except forthe welcome.
(32:41):
And Daria like offers somethingthat is so sarcastic, right?
And Jody says to her, I have todo this.
I'm on student counsel and it'san important job with a lot of
responsibilities.
And now I just feel bad aboutit.
So she's like, not only didDaria not help her, she also
made her feel bad about the factthat she has to do it.
(33:03):
And she's she sort of calls itout.
And poor Mac then comes up andsays, Hey.
Jodi's like, stop talking to me,or like, shut up.
It's like, you know, she liketakes it out on poor Mac.
Don't call him Mac Daddy.
Anyway.
So I think you're like that thatfeeling that you're naming this
(33:26):
show exhibits through the personof Jody at Daria.
I mean, and Daria is our hero.
Like, we completely sympathizewith her, but the show like
shows us that it's not allquippy quips and light.
It's also, you know, it has thiseffect on specifically on Jodi.
(33:46):
So I think that's a really I waslike surprised, like pleasantly
surprised by that level ofnuance.
SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
I appreciate it also in that it's late.
I mean, I like I think this ismore of a millennial show than a
Gen X show.
Yeah.
But like part of what Gen Xerslike about themselves is that we
are unsurprised and disaffected.
Like, and I kind of get that.
I kind of get the like, youknow, you can't surprise us.
(34:15):
Like, we we've been through itall, we can do.
And like we're so worldly.
We were like that.
Yeah, we're so worldly.
And we were like that as liketeenagers and young adults, and
we are like that as 40s and 50ssomethings.
And there, there's like, don'ttrust the man, don't trust like,
you know, uh major institutions,all of that.
(34:36):
But there's this negative sideto this, which is that like,
well, then you never trustanyone, and nothing is ever
serious, and you can never besincere about anything.
Sincerity is like poison.
It's like social suicide to besincere.
And that is a very negativething.
(34:59):
And so while this now, I knowit's Mike Judge, I'm sure, who
is Gen X.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
I mean, it's a spin-off of his show, but he
does not appear to have beeninvolved.
I actually looked for his namein the credits.
He does not appear to have beeninvolved in the actual
day-to-day work.
It has a different look thanlike King of the Hill, MB Vist
and Budhead.
So I'm not sure how involved hewas from the beginning.
I actually suspect maybe this isthe Gen X cynic in me that MTV
(35:29):
was like, we need more femaleviewers.
Let's spin off a TV show aboutone of the female characters
from Vist and Butthead.
And that's how it came to be.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Well, even so, because of when it came out, it
would have been Gen X,presumably.
Making it.
Making it.
Agreed.
And so good on them for beingself-aware enough to be able to
put embody what we like bestabout ourselves in Daria while
also holding her accountable forit.
SPEAKER_01 (35:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (35:57):
I mean to a certain extent.
To a certain extent.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
There was something I thought ofwhile you were talking that I
wanted to name.
Oh, yes.
So to your point about sort ofGen X and like the sincerity and
all, there's also a degree towhich we are we were raised up
on kind of ideological purityand sort of like black and white
(36:20):
thinking.
Like the whole, like what wetalked about in in reality
bites, don't be a sellout.
In fact, one of the characters,Jesse, Trent's bandmate, says,
This guy's no sellout.
And Jane says, Well, that wouldrequire someone to want to buy
what you're selling.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
And that's one way to stay pure.
SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
And Jane looks at Daria and it's like, well,
somebody had to say it, saidsomething because Daria was
keeping her mouth shut.
Anyway, this show kind of alittle bit grapples with that.
There's an episode about plasticsurgery where Quinn's, some of
Quinn's friends, end up gettingplastic surgery.
Quinn is the younger sister whois already very attractive.
(37:04):
And Quinn decides that she wantsto get plastic surgery because
she was cuter than these girls,but now they've had this
surgery, so they're cuter thanshe is.
So she needs to go get surgery.
But then of course they're gonnago get surgery and it's just
gonna be a vicious whatever thatthing is called.
It's a butter battle book.
So Quinn says, too, Doria.
And it it ends up going badly,like the girl who got her nose
done, it like caves in orsomething.
(37:25):
So we have that very clearlampooning of the need to like
change our appearance.
Like the doctor like shows Quinnlike what she could look like if
she got cheekbones and lips andlike all the things, and then
turns the camera on Daria andshows Daria what she could look
(37:45):
like and turns her into Quinn.
So there's very clearlampooning.
At the same time, mom, we getsort of a couple of scenes of
mom, like I mentioned earlier,where she's like, we shouldn't
be judged by our parances,maybe, but we are, and that's
just the reality.
And so she's like almost talkingherself into it.
And there's another episode, notabout plastic surgery.
(38:08):
They end up on a college campus.
It's the alma mater of mom anddad.
And this college student, a boy,comes up to mom and is like, Can
I have your underwear?
And she's like, What?
And she's like really offended,but also a little bit flattered.
But then he says, Our frat housemoved off campus.
(38:30):
And so when we fly underwear onthe flagpole, it can't be seen
from the quad.
But I've been watching you and Ithink yours is big enough that
it would be seen from the quad.
So we get this like kind ofgross.
Not like kind of totally gross.
The whole thing is gross.
What I'm saying is kind of grossis the takedown of mom.
(38:51):
Like what the show wants us tothink about Mrs.
Morgendorfer as a result of thisis what feels kind of gross.
Gotcha.
The college student is all theway gross.
But what the show runners, Ithink, sort of want the viewer
to feel about Mrs.
Morgendorfer feels kind ofgross.
Like sh there's this, she saysthey go up to Jake's old room
(39:17):
and he's like trying so hard tobe liked by these college
students who are like, whatever,old man.
And she's like, Remember whenyou and your friends used to
lean out that window and screamhorrible things at me?
And then she's like, Quinn is onthis campus.
Like she suddenly realizes thather daughter is gonna be the
subject of this.
And there's this sort ofcritique that, like, what we see
(39:38):
is that she knows she shouldn'tlike it, but she kind of sorta
did, which is different than weaccept different things now than
we did 30 years ago.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Like, which is true.
I mean, that happens.
Like, things that I took forgranted as just kind of the way
things were, because I was afish and it was water.
If they happened to my daughter,I'd be like, oh, hell no.
But there was a there was adegree to which like the sh I
feel like the show was likejudging her.
Judged her for it.
Yeah.
Which undercut some of thefeminism of Daria herself, but
(40:13):
actually feels like that 90sfeminism.
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
Where we judged less enlightened women.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Yeah, ideological purity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
And the ideological purity.
It's all related.
It's all related.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Yeah.
Well, I've had this realizationrecently that that ideological
purity that we require ofourselves is the same kind of
like self-policing that likehigh control religion forces on
people.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
And that realization came about because of I saw an
interview with one of the Duggerkids who has not exactly
escaped, but is no longerexactly under them.
But growing up, she was toldthat music with drums in it was
like of the devil.
And so she accidentally heardmusic that had drums in it, and
she's like, oh my God, I'm goingto hell, like as a kid, and was
(41:04):
like having heart palpitations,which like broke my heart.
And she was talking about this,and that's why she's no longer
with that specific branch of thechurch.
And it occurred to me that likewhen I am like, I have to get
something, and it's theconvenience, there's nothing as
convenient as Amazon.
And I feel like, oh God, I'm nota good liberal.
(41:27):
I'm not a good leftist.
And I realize like I'm havingthe same heart palpitations
where it's like, yeah, I don'twant my money to go to Bezos,
but I'm one person.
And like, I'm not going to hell.
Now, and this is obviouslydifferent because like she
didn't choose to listen to thatmusic or anything like that.
So it came upon her.
(41:49):
I am making this choice, butit's a it's a choice that I'm
making in this sea of otherchoices that are like are with
or without my agency.
And so like the level ofideological purity that we
require of ourselves, like, atleast for me, makes me feel like
(42:10):
I'm in a smaller and smaller andsmaller and smaller and smaller
box.
Because like I gotta do this theexact right way, or else I'm not
ideologically pure.
And that just might be myanxiety.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Maybe.
But I would label it actually asperfectionism here, as like I
think it's ideological puritythat judges others the way that
this TV show, I think, judgesMrs.
Morgendorfer for uh enjoyingfeeling desired, even though
(42:44):
she's a high-powered woman.
I think it is perfectionism inourselves that sort of we've
been trained that we will beworthy, loved, successful, safe.
I mean, for the Duggar kid, safeif we are perfect, and only
perfect will do.
(43:04):
And it this is a semanticdistinction that I'm making, but
I think there is it's it'sslightly different.
Like, because we're not actuallyasking Mrs.
Morgendorfer to be perfectexactly, though she maybe is
asking herself to be perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
So one thing to be f impossibly fair, although I
think this is way too nuancedfor an MTV cartoon, is like
maybe it's asking Mrs.
Morgendorfer to be moreintrospective.
It's not that it's a problemthat she is enjoying being
desired.
It's not that it's a problemthat she like realizing how
(43:44):
gross it is.
It's that she doesn't spend timethinking about it.
She just wants to get back toher vegetative state.
Maybe.
But that is very nuanced.
That is not something that,like, even for a show that is
smart enough to just let Theaudience get the joke, the
audience isn't gonna get that.
They're just gonna judge her.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
Well, the thing is, Mrs.
Morgendorfer, yes, she we judgeher, we are expected to judge
her.
The show sets it up for us tojudge her repeatedly for not
being introspective.
You're not wrong about that.
You know, even in the way that,like, when she hears that her
oldest has low self-esteem, herfirst reaction is, this doesn't
mean I'm gonna need to have anyparent-teacher conferences, does
(44:25):
it?
So, yes.
I feel like it's a slightlydifferent category when we're
talking about sexuality.
And part of that is that it wasthe mom.
And this is from the teenager'spoint of view, right?
Like there's one scene whereQuinn and mom go to see an
organization expert, and theorganization expert, who's a
(44:45):
woman, asks them to name theirtop priorities.
And Mrs.
Morgan Dorfer lists off a bunch,like four or five, that are
about like number one isspending more time with family,
and then it's about work andit's about whatever.
And then she adds, like, numberfive is like put more spice back
in our marriage.
And then Quinn lists, and Quinngoes, ew, uh, and then she
(45:06):
crosses that off and says adifferent thing for number five.
And then Quinn lists a bunch ofthat are like be more popular,
be like very shallow things, andMrs.
Morgendorfer like judges her forit.
The organization expert says,No, no, it's important to like
be clear about what reallymatters, like no judgment, just
what really matters.
(45:28):
And Mrs.
Morgendorfer turns back to herlist and says, number one, put
spice back into my marriage.
So there's like this throughline about sex and sexuality,
which she's not judged for that,I don't think.
Quinn judges her, but we are notas a viewer.
Quinn's 15.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
Her daughter, yeah.
Yeah, and her daughter andparents getting it off is gross,
but right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
And so I don't know, it's like it's complicated.
It's complicated.
I don't think we are meant tojudge her for that moment.
There's another moment when thekids go, both girls go to the
Alternapalooza festival, and thethey ask the parents what are
they gonna do?
And they say, Oh, we're gonnapay bills.
We're gonna maybe do I don'tremember what the other thing is
that they could say, like someother really boring thing.
(46:11):
And the girls are like, Okay,well, don't hurt yourself.
And then the parents like watchto make sure they're really
gone, and then they're chasingeach other around the house, you
know, like, hey, foxy lady, dadsays.
So, like the idea that they havea sexual relationship is treated
a little bit as a joke, but notto judge them, like a, you know.
(46:34):
But the thing about like her andher like wanting to still feel
desirable to this collegestudent because she's in her
alma mater, that gets messier.
I'm not sure where I'm goingwith this, except that like the
things that we've already talkedabout.
But I do think that like as asociety, like women's sexuality,
(46:56):
especially midlife women, islike a thing that we still are
kind of backward about.
Like it's not a thing that wefeel comfortable thinking and
talking about.
So, and this show has a give andtake.
It it gives with one hand, butit takes with another, on that
score in particular.
Yeah, yeah.
(47:16):
Not that I think that like shewas right to sort of want this,
but also like she was human.
I guess that's where I'm gettingat.
And I don't think we got thatfrom the showrunners about her
at that moment.
Yeah.
So let me see if I can reflectback some of the things that I
had to say about this that youand I had to say about this TV
(47:38):
show, this MTV TV show.
So I think I guess maybe mybiggest takeaway is the way that
you named, which I think isexactly right, that one of the
things that's smart about thisshow is not just that Daria is
smart, but that the showreflects reality.
And so the idea that Daria is amisery chick is less about the
(48:00):
idea that or the hypothesis thatbeing smart equals being sad,
and maybe more about the factthat being smart makes one like
more aware of all of the kind ofweight of the world, which makes
one sad or can.
And so I think that idea of thisshow as a reflection of things
(48:24):
in some degree as they are, isactually its strength.
I think that, you know, the wayin which Daria is
self-consciously uninterested inthe things that teenage girls
are supposed to be interestedin.
I'm putting quotes aroundsupposed, and yet has this crush
(48:46):
on Trent and ends up like tryingto be, at least to a certain
degree, more like other teenagegirls.
Like she put she Jane says, Youhave lipstick on when they're
getting picked up to go to thealternatalooza.
And she says, Stop, I just ate alollipop.
Jane's like, No, you didn't.
I think that is a reflection ofreality, right?
(49:08):
Like teen girls who were smartand disaffected still got
crushes and then ended up liketrying to figure out how they
could be more attractive totheir crush, just like Daria did
with Trent.
Or they were like Jane, wherethey like, you know, went into
the laundry room anyway becausethey wanted to, but then like
(49:30):
he's dumb, but he's cute.
Tried to hide it.
And that makes for the bestdogs.
It's not terrible, boyfriend.
Anyway.
So that was one thing that wetalked about, and sort of the
difference between that kind ofsense of one's place in the
world versus low self-esteem.
Allah Zephad Bible Brocks fromHitchhiker's Guide, Douglas
(49:52):
Adams, and the Hitchhiker'sGuide series, which is not a
trilogy.
Another thing we talked about isthe way that it takes a certain
amount of privilege to becynical, or at least to be
vocally cynical.
In Dario, I think it wasspecifically to be vocally
cynical.
You brought in examples whereit's like actually in the real
(50:12):
world as well, because sure bothparties make mistakes, but only
one is actually gonna activelywork to hurt my well-being.
SPEAKER_00 (50:22):
Only one of them is blackbagging people or shooting
them in the face.
I mean, right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
So in Daria, we saw that through the person of Jody,
who's Daria's black counterpart.
So she is just as smart and justas capable of caustic quips, but
she does not come at things withcaustic quips, in part because
as she tells Daria, sherepresents her race in this most
(50:52):
in this all-white crowd.
And that's a weight ofresponsibility that requires her
to not be sort of caustic quips.
So that's a refreshingly sort ofthoughtful take from this late
90s, early 2000s.
She still was a minor character,so I don't I don't want to like
(51:14):
overstate the case.
But I was impressed with that.
Let me see.
I think what else did what whatelse did we talk about?
What did I forget?
We talked a little bit aboutideological purity versus
perfectionism and the sort offeminism of this TV show, which
is arguable, but not, I don'tthink, I don't think misplaced,
(51:39):
but the ways in which sort ofactually 90s feminism was all
about ideological purity andjudging even women who were less
enlightened, we thought, thanus.
And that is reflected in this TVshow.
In some of the sort of in theways that that Mrs.
Morgendorfer is treated about,like especially in the one
(52:01):
episode that I named, but alsojust in general, kind of the way
that like some of the morestereotypical teenage characters
are treated, notably thecheerleader.
So I think that's all I have tosay about Daria.
Tell me, um, what are youbringing me next week?
SPEAKER_00 (52:21):
Next week, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on
Say Anything.
I'm apparently on a um John Saktear right now.
So I don't think I've seen that.
So I'll look forward to hearingyour thoughts.
I didn't see it till college, soyeah, it's gonna be interesting.
Cool.
See you then.
See you then.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(53:02):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
But in the end, Daria says to Jane, it is not
your fault that guy died.
And Jane says to Daria, peopledon't think.
And you do.
And this death is forcing themto think.
And what they're saying to youis, How do I deal with the fact
that I'm thinking?
How do you manage thinking allthe time until I get back into
(00:20):
my vegetable state?
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
(00:42):
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the late 90s animated TV showDaria with my sister, Emily Guy
Birken, and with you.
(01:02):
Let's dive in.
Okay, I'm pretty sure youremember this show.
I don't think we watched ittogether because I was a senior
in college when it came out,which means you were a freshman
in college.
But I know you've seen it.
So tell me, what is in your headabout Daria?
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
So I remember that it's a spin-off from Beavis and
Butthead, which I don't doesn'treally compute like how Daria
lives in the same universe asBeavis and Butthead.
I like I just know that's afact.
And I remember the animationstyle.
And there's one specific episodethat I remember.
(01:40):
Oh.
And actually, it's just a detailof it, which is Daria is trying
to write a short story, like afiction story, and she's having
trouble.
And so the teacher, who is likeclearly a space cadet, says, you
know, sometimes havingboundaries lets your creativity
fly free, or something likethat.
(02:01):
And so said, Why don't youinclude a card game in the
story?
And so she ends up writing thestory, and the card game is so
not at all important to it, justto meet that.
And for some reason that's stuckin my head.
Huh.
And in my head, Jeanine Garofflois the voice of Daria.
(02:23):
But I think even then I knewlike it wasn't, but I just
wanted it to be.
Same energy, not JanineGarofflo, though.
But that kind of like flataffect.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The woman who voiced Daria isnamed Tracy Grandstaff.
She spells Tracy wrong.
Actually, I spell Tracy wrong,but she doesn't spell like I do.
But yeah, Tracy Grandstaff wasDaria's voice.
So that's what I've got.
Okay.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout Daria today?
Well, Daria was kind of likestuck in my head in part because
(02:53):
our stepfather, Daria, is calledMisery Chick.
The Misery Chick, in fact, inthe season finale of the first
season.
And our stepdad, I guess, waswatching this show and was like,
hey, that's Tracy.
Daria's like Tracy.
Like, so it's sort of stuck inmy head.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
I mean, I earned it a little bit.
No.
I mean, I know I'm the one withthe I'm a ray of fucking
sunshine.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
I thought you that mug.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
You did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, it was more than that.
But, you know, Daria, like,she's very smart.
She takes no guff.
She like makes lots of likequippy, sarcastic comments.
Like, our family has the jokeabout the what century is this?
Because right around the sametime as Daria was out when you
graduated from college.
(03:49):
I'm just, I know you know thisstory, but I'm telling our
listeners, like, I was in thetiny one hotel in tiny Gambier,
Ohio.
And the poor young man who wasworking the front desk, he had
to like, I had to hang up andcall back so he could make the
connection I wanted him to make.
And like, full sneer, like, Ithink my lip was actually like
up in like an Elvis sneer.
(04:10):
I was like, what century isthis?
Which is a total, except Dariawould have said, I thought this
was the 20th century.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
21st at that point.
It was right.
It was 2000.
I do want to make sure that itis entirely clear you had hung
up by that point.
The poor young man could nothear you.
I'm not sure that I hadactually.
You had.
I'm not sure that I had.
You hung up and you were like,what century is this?
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
I don't think I did, but because I have a memory of
this poor boy being like, sorry,like on the other side of the
line.
Anyway, I still have the sameoutlook, but I'm slightly, I
give slightly more grace now inmy middle age, I think.
Slightly more.
Anyway, I've softened a bit.
Anyway, that's why Dario wasimportant to me.
(04:59):
I'm not sure why it showed upnow, except that I guess in my
brain, I thought I was like,it's time for another animated
piece, which I just did animatedlike a few episodes ago.
So obviously, animated is reallyimportant to me, which is no
surprise to regular listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
It's kind of our thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
It's very much your thing.
It's kind of important to me.
So no surprise to our listeners.
So anyway, that's why Daria,that's what's at stake for me,
is that to to at least to somemembers of our family, I bore a
striking resemblance to Daria.
So that's why.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination,
and then I'll remind you a bitabout the show.
So I want to talk a bit aboutlike this show was Daria herself
(05:41):
was in many ways very self-awareand didn't like hide that from
the viewers.
And so there was a degree towhich it really like did not
talk down to the viewers.
It just like told the smart jokeand expected you to get it,
which is kind of refreshing foran MTV show.
I wonder, I was never a Beavisand Butthead viewer because I
(06:04):
just found those two guys.
I didn't find them funny.
But I wonder if there was adegree to which they, as
anti-heroes, were the butt ofthe joke.
And there was still some of thatbecause Daria was a recurring
character on Beavis andButthead.
So I don't know.
I never watched it, but it makesme wonder because this show does
(06:24):
not dumb down the jokes orexplain the jokes for the
viewer.
Like they just expect you to getit, which is kind of cool.
There's through some minorcharacters, Jody and Mac, who
are both black, we actually getsome reckoning or at least
acknowledgement of the role thatracism plays in people of
(06:48):
color's lives, and a particularsmart people of color who like
Jodi and Daria are in many wayscounterparts, but Jodi has a
totally different way of dealingwith the way she sees the world,
the smart, same smart ways thatshe sees the world as Daria.
And it's at least in partbecause of race.
(07:11):
And I think that's a reallyinteresting thing from the late
90s, early 2000s.
Jodi actually gets her ownspin-off.
I think it was originally meantto be a show.
It ended up being, I believe, afeature film, not for the like
direct to TV, but a film lengthtreatment rather than episodic.
But I think that's also aninteresting thing that Jody then
gets her own spin-off.
As a result of that kind ofreckoning with race, we see the
(07:33):
degree to which being cynical isactually a privilege position.
Like it takes privilege in orderto be cynical, which I think is
something that we can wrestlewith a bit, you and me.
I also want to talk about sortof the assumption that this film
reifies and really like leans onthat being smart means being
depressed, that those two thingslike are necessarily go
(07:57):
together, or at least beingperceived that way.
And there's sort of reckoningwith being smart and sort of not
caring about the things thatother kids care about, which
includes like being popular andlike how one looks, but it also
includes romance, which isinteresting and gets kind of
poked a little bit, which feelsreal.
(08:19):
Like that actually reads usreally real.
So I want to talk about that abit.
And then finally, there's a wayin which Daria again is very
self-aware and aware of like thepsychology of what's going on in
the background of everyone inher life, including herself,
that and we also see from thevery beginning that she is
identified as having lowestself-esteem.
(08:41):
So there's something like I'mnot sure what where I'm going
with that, but I want to hold itup to the light and look at it.
So that's where we're going.
So I'm not gonna give you plotsummaries because it's a TV
show.
There were four seasons.
I did not re-watch every singleepisode.
I rewatched the whole firstseason in preparation, but I did
not watch every single episode.
(09:02):
So I'm gonna start, I'm gonnagive you the main characters the
way that we've done for other TVshows.
So I'll start with DariaMorgendorfer.
She is a sophomore at LawndaleHigh in the season, in the first
season.
So presumably she advancesthrough grades in the other
seasons.
And in fact, Jody, the movieabout Jody is sort of
(09:25):
post-college.
And I believe the final seasonof Daria was the kids like
preparing to go off to school.
So they've moved to a new town.
She's new at Lawndale, and sheis kind of alternative, we would
have called it in the late 90s.
You know, she's wearing like askirt and combat boots and a
(09:46):
green blazer that she alwayswears.
The we get a lot from thecredits screen with a song by
one of the members of Riot Girlsthat's like sort of tuneless and
like it was super cool in '97with a the little chorus of la
la la la la, which is gonnahaunt my dreams now from having
(10:08):
like binged the whole firstseason over the past few days.
Anyway, Daria is long-suffering.
Her younger sister, Quinn, isthe president of the fashion
club.
She is a freshman.
She is very popular because shehas super bouncy hair and
equally bouncy boobs.
(10:29):
She wears a little like babydoll t-shirt and jeans all the
time.
She does not want to be seenwith her older sister and in
fact disavows her and tries toconvince her friends that Daria
is like her cousin or somethingrather than her sister.
We have both of their parents,Mr.
and Mrs.
Morgendorfer.
(10:50):
They have first names, Jake andI can't remember mom's first
name.
It doesn't matter.
She is a very high-achieving,maybe lawyer, maybe, I don't
know, it's not clear, but thehigh achieving professional,
like always wearing like skirtsuits and high heels and things
and having very important phonecalls.
And she knows she needs to besupportive of her daughters, but
(11:13):
it's this sort of lip service,so that everything either of
them says is responded to with,great, that's great.
Until it's something she doesn'tlike, and then, you know, these
weird things happen.
Dad is like kind of clueless,and sometimes mom will be like,
back me up, Jake.
(11:34):
And he's like, um, yeah, withthis like, you know, deer in the
headlights look, like, what'syour mother said?
You know, that sort of thing.
He also has a professional job.
We're not sure what it is.
Darry's best friend, Jane Lane,is very good at art.
She has an asymmetrical haircut.
She also wears skirts and tall,much taller boots that lace up.
(11:59):
She has, yes, Emily, just youjust marked her ear.
She has earrings like all theway along her cartilage, up and
down her ear, like rings, silverrings.
And she is equally sort ofdeadpan.
Well, no, she's equally cynical,slightly less deadpan.
And they become friendsimmediately in the low
(12:20):
self-esteem class, which I'llget to.
There's also Kevin and Britney,who are the quarterback and a
cheerleader, respectively.
They are a couple.
There's Jody and Mac, who Imentioned briefly, they're like
the only two black people,apparently in all of Lawdale.
They also apparently are acouple.
(12:41):
Mac, Kevin, the quarterback,regularly calls Mac Mac Daddy
every single time.
Mac goes, don't call me that.
Every time.
He responds to the question andthen says, and don't call me
that.
Then we have their teachers.
There are a couple of otherstudents who are sort of minor
recurring characters, like themembers of the fashion club, or
(13:03):
there's a really like a geek whothinks he's like a I don't know
what the word is.
He thinks he can get in theirpants.
Like he's always giving theselike terrible one-liners, but
he's a Pasanova type.
Yes.
His name is Charles.
Everyone calls him Upchuck.
And then their teachers.
We see a number of theirteachers in a recurring way.
(13:26):
The one that you rememberprobably is Mr.
O'Neill, who can't remember thekids' names at all.
He's the English teacher, but heis also the teacher for the
self-esteem class.
The history teacher is like veryhigh strung and like very
sarcastic and gets agitatedreally easily, so that like one
(13:46):
eye kind of bulges because he'sso like agitated.
Their science teacher is a womanwho is like coming out of a
divorce and is always talkingabout the she's the ex-husband
and sort of like projecting hisbehavior on all of the boys in
the classroom.
Their principal is Mrs.
(14:08):
Lee, who is struggling with thefact that the high school needs
more money and makes somequestionable choices as a result
of wanting more money.
And there are probably others,but those are the major players.
So this movie, excuse me, thisTV show passes Beckdell flying
(14:30):
colors every single episode.
Like, not just like I have tolook across the entire oove to
find it.
Like it passes Beckdel with noproblem.
Jane and Daria talk about stuffbesides boys and men all the
time, as do Daria and Quinn.
Like it passes.
I think one might argue it'seven feminist.
I think you could argue that.
(14:51):
I mean, it is this particularbrand of feminism from that late
90s time period.
But at one point, Daria, theyactually put in the mouth of
Daria, it's not in the firstseason, but I read about it in
future seasons.
There's a moment where she says,People always call me a feminist
when I say things thatdistinguish me from a doormat or
from a prostitute.
And so there's a degree towhich, like, it's just assumed,
(15:16):
which is another reason Isuspect that our stepfather like
associated her with me, right?
But one of the things that Iwant to talk about that kind of
possibly undercuts that is theway in which there is also
assumed that Daria is miserablebecause of her intellect and
(15:37):
maybe because of her feminism.
In the final episode of thefirst season, they actually
address this directly.
The episode is called The MiseryChick.
So in this episode, an alumni ofthe high school who was the star
quarterback is coming back.
It's only been a few years, likethree or four years, and he took
the team to state championships.
And this guy's a jerk.
(15:58):
Like we and Daria witness himproposition or insult every
single person that he meets.
And he's just terrible.
He and Jane meet him, and likeDaria says, excuse me.
And he's like, You gotta bekidding, I'm not gonna talk to
you.
And she's like, I don't want totalk to you.
And he's like, You just saidexcuse me.
And she's like, Yeah, you'releaning on my locker.
(16:19):
Anyway, he's a jerk to them.
And he says, he's the one whosays the phrase misery chick.
You're one of those miserychicks who thinks about how
terrible the world is just todistract everyone because from
the fact that you're a loser,something like that.
As he's walking away, Jane sayssomething like she wishes he
(16:41):
would die.
And it's just like a sarcasticjoke.
But then almost immediately thegoalpost, which they were going
to name after him, falls on himand he dies.
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
I mean, it's supposed to be funny.
And then all of a sudden, all ofher classmates and even one of
her teachers are like coming toDaria for advice on how to like
handle being miserable andfeeling so rotten because she
thinks about dark things all thetime, because she's always
miserable.
And this is like hard for Dariabecause at the end, she and Jane
(17:18):
actually have a conversation.
Jane had been avoiding her, andthen they actually do meet and
talk.
And Jane was feeling awful aboutthe fact that she wished for
this man's death and then hedied.
And she didn't think that Dariawould get it because Daria was
like making jokes about it andjust being sort of like,
whatever, he was a jerk.
(17:39):
And Daria's like, no, I'm I'msorry he died, but that doesn't
make him a good person.
He was still a terrible person.
And then Daria says, you know,people keep coming to me because
you're miserable, Daria, but I'mnot miserable.
I'm just, this is how I see theworld, or whatever.
I don't remember the exact theway she talks about it, it
doesn't really matter.
But in the end, Daria says toJane, it is not your fault that
(18:02):
guy died.
And Jane says to Daria, peopledon't think.
And you do.
And this death is forcing themto think.
And what they're saying to youis, How do I deal with the fact
that I'm thinking?
How do you manage thinking allthe time until I get back into
my vegetable state?
So the show addressed directlythis perception that Daria's
(18:27):
intellect makes her miserable,which is interesting.
And I appreciate it.
Like because we hear fromDaria's own mouth, I'm not
miserable.
But I'm not sure the showactually shows us that she's not
miserable, right?
Like she in the first episode inthe in the pilot, she ends up in
(18:49):
this low self-esteem class.
And while the class itself isridiculous, and she and Jane end
up getting out of it becauseJane has taken it six times and
knows all of the right answersto the test.
The implication is not that theydon't have low self-esteem.
Quite the opposite.
Like the test was on tosomething, it's just that the
(19:11):
school doesn't know what to doabout it in actuality.
SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
And you said this before we started recording.
The reason why she ends up inthat class is because when she
started at the school, she hadto take a psychographic.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
A psychographic test that put her in that class.
That put her in this class thather sister didn't end up in.
And interestingly, when herparents hear, like, this
actually was very funny.
Her dad's like, what's wrongwith you, Daria?
And the mom's like, this isn'tgonna mean I'm gonna have to go
to like parent teacherconferences or anything, is it?
(19:48):
So that actually was very funny.
I laughed out loud at when thedad, he actually like smacks the
table, like low self-esteem.
What's wrong with you?
We always tell you you'rewonderful.
Oh my goodness.
(20:08):
So I guess what I'm trying totease at is like the show, well,
like the showrunners are like,yeah, people think this, and
like they're wrong, but they'realso right.
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
I do want to like I wanna stick with this for a
minute because I feel likethat's not necessarily like I I
feel like what they're doing isthey're reflecting a reality in
some ways.
Yes, because it's not thatpeople of high intelligence like
Daria and Jane have lowself-esteem in the way that like
(20:41):
we think of it as as like lowself-worth, it's that they have
a clearer understanding ofreality, which leads to a better
understanding of their place inthe world.
And so, do you recall there'sthe moment in the greater
Heicheker's Guide to the Galaxylike trilogy that became a
(21:04):
five-book series, beingincreasingly poorly named.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I don't remember which bookit's in, but there's a point
where they put ZaphodBebelbrocks into a machine that
shows you just how unimportantyou are.
Yeah, it shows you your place inthe universe, but his has been
his has been like and he wasplaced, they created an
alternate universe for him.
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Right.
So he's the only one who evercomes out not insane.
Yes.
Yes, I do recall.
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
So I'm thinking of that because, and like Zaphod
Beal Brocks, I have for yearsthought that like he is a
smarter and more charismaticversion of Trump with more arms
and heads.
But he went into it supremelyconfident and came out of it
feeling like I'm the mostimportant person in the entire
(21:54):
universe.
Because that's what the box toldhim.
Because that's what the box toldhim.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Uh huh.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
And it feels It feels like, and I know this is
something that I have seen overand over and over again.
Like, very intelligent peoplewhom I love are like burdened
with reality.
And it's not that they have lowself-esteem, it's that they're
they're burdened with reality.
And then like dipshits have likeegos the size of Mount Rushmore.
(22:25):
Because they don't, they're notsmart enough to recognize how
little they are.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Yeah, I think that may be right.
I mean, at one point, Dariasays, this is in a later season.
I I watched it in a clip.
Daria says to Jody, actually,because Jody's like, you're so
negative all the time and itdoesn't serve you.
And Daria says, I'm too smartand too sensitive to live in
this world with the sister Ihave and not be this way.
It's how I cope.
So I think you're exactly right.
(22:51):
There's another scene where shegoes to a therapist and she
basically says exactly what'swrong with each of her family
members, including herself.
She says to the therapist, Iactively work to make people
dislike me so that when they do,I'm not disappointed.
So, yes, I think you areprobably right.
Like we see her over and overagain like not like a situation
(23:15):
and figure out a way to likemanipulate that situation,
herself out of it, or the chainto change things somehow.
And she also is very aware oflike relational dynamics.
In an early episode, she and hersister both end up at this party
(23:35):
at a classmate's house whoseparents are out of town.
And at the end of the night,they like they lose their ride,
like whatever.
And Quinn says, Should we callmom and dad?
And Daria says, and give themthat much power?
No way, we're walking.
So there's like this constantassessment of the power
(23:58):
dynamics, the whatever, like, soI think you you are probably
right.
And to your point about sort ofreflecting reality, I want to
sort of stay with kind of theperceptions of how this
disaffected, smart teenage girlis, and like the way that this
reflects it.
So in that episode where they goto the party, these two boys hit
(24:20):
on them, hit on Daria and Jane.
And Daria gives them, they'relike, Where you girls been all
our lives?
And Daria says, We've beenstanding in this room, we were
born in this room, and we'vebeen waiting, wondering if we
would die in this room alone.
And then you came along.
(24:40):
And one of the guys goes, Hey,she likes you.
And so there's this, like, youknow, to fit the stereotype.
Like, she is not interested inromance, or at least not with
like certainly not with thatdude, right?
Jane ends up going into themakeout room, aka the laundry
(25:03):
room, with one of them.
Jane lies about it to Dariabecause she's a little bit
ashamed of it.
So it's like I watched that one.
I was like, I wonder if Daria ismeant to be like asexual.
We mostly weren't using thatterm in the broadest cultural
sense back in the late 90s, butcertainly asexuality existed, or
(25:25):
if she just has high standards,or like Jane certainly isn't,
because she's like, I mean, he'sdumb, but he's cute.
And so she like goes into thelaundry room with him.
But in later episodes, we seeDaria has a big crush on Jane's
older brother, Trent, who islike still living at home and
trying to make his band work,which is called Mystic Spiral.
(25:50):
But Daria says that sounds likea doors cover band that plays at
brew pubs.
To which Trent's like, oh, maybeyou're right.
What if we spelled it with twowhys?
We spell mystic with two whys.
So, but Zarya has a big crush onhim, which I think is also like
(26:15):
reflecting of reality, right?
Like she eschews all the thingsthat she's supposed to want, but
she's still a teenage girl.
And so, like having her havethis crush on Trent, which is
unclear if it's required or not.
Like, at least in the firstseason, nothing actually happens
(26:35):
between them.
But like, there are momentswhere, like, so in an episode,
they end up going toAlternapalooza together.
Jane and Zarya and Trent andTrent's bandmate Jesse.
They all go to Alternapalooza,and like Daria, like Trent and
Jesse will say something, andZarya will think some snide
(26:56):
remark.
And we hear it, but she's notsaying it.
Her lips stays still.
Eventually, Jane's like, say it,Zarya.
Say it.
Whatever you're thinking, sayit.
Because they're gonna go on likethis for hours.
And then they drive past somelike big billboard that said, if
you lived here, you'd be home bynow.
(27:16):
And Zarya like forgets she'strying to be quiet and whatever,
demure, and she goes, and bebored out of your mind.
And then she immediately likecovers her mouth.
But the two guys think it'sfunny.
So, like watching Daria kind ofdo those things that are like
normal teenage girl things andlike have it like the way she's
(27:41):
thinking about herself.
And I find that to your pointabout being like a reflection of
reality, like I actually reallyappreciated that.
Like, I think that probably, Imean, I was a little bit older
when this, you know, I like Isaid, I was a senior in college
when this first came out.
So, but like if I had been 15when I first watched Aria, I
(28:05):
think I would have been likereally validated.
Sure.
By that in particular, that sortof like, she acts like she
doesn't care about it, but she'sstill, you know, she still has a
crush on Trent or whatever.
So that was something that,like, just the way you said,
like, reflection of reality withthe intellect and the the weight
(28:29):
of the world just reminded me ofthat.
So staying on that, actually,and the the weight of the world,
let's talk about Jodi, the blackcounterpart, and sort of what
she says to Daria and kind ofwhere that lands.
There's an episode, I think thesame one, where Daria says, I'm
(28:49):
too smart and too sensitive forthis world and a sister like
mine.
In that same scene, Daria issort of giving Jodi a hard time
about being like seeing theworld as it is and still being
like accommodating in some way.
Jodi says to her, You don'tsomething like you don't know
(29:09):
what it's like, right?
Like, you don't know what it'slike for me.
Like at home, I can just be Jodiand I can say what I think and I
can just be me.
But at Lawndale, I have to bethe queen of the Negroes, and I
have to be a role model for allof the other black students at
Lawndale High.
Oops, where did they all go?
And so there's this veryself-aware moment where
(29:34):
effectively Jody says, you know,it's a privilege that you can be
cynical, you can actually outloud be cynical the way that you
are.
Jodi says to her, Sometimes Iwish I could, I could be more
like you, but I can't.
Daria says, Sometimes I wish Icould be more like you.
And Jodi makes a like asatisfied face.
(29:54):
And Daria says, I didn't say allthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
So the idea of cynicism as privilege is
something I've been thinkingabout a lot, especially
politically over the past 10years.
Just, you know, so often we'llhave people say, like, both
parties are exactly the same.
I'm sitting it out.
And that kind of cynicism onlycomes from people who are pretty
(30:20):
darn sure they're not going tobe rounded up because of the
color of their skin.
Mm-hmm.
Are pretty sure that they're notgoing to lose, you know,
affirming healthcare because oftheir gender identity.
I went to the uh women's marchin Madison in 2017.
And as we were leaving, we raninto this guy, give you three
(30:42):
guesses as to what race he was,who as we're leaving said, you
know, Obama used their ownstrikes, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, to us aswe're leaving the women's march
in January 2017.
And it was just like, what whatdo you think you're doing right
(31:04):
now, dude?
Like, you weren't here marchingwith us.
Like, if you were marching withus and also said that, like,
I'll give you a teensy bit moregrace.
You're just sitting on a benchyelling at women who are worried
about what's going to be coming.
And that that kind of cynicismreminds me of when I was in high
school and I had to do a groupproject and I did all the
(31:27):
writing for something for thefirst like third of it.
One of my group mates came inand just sat with a red pen on
the thing that I had written.
And it was just like you're nothelping in any way.
And it's, it's, you're soprivileged to be able to sit
there and say, I point out thisis wrong and this is wrong and
(31:47):
that's wrong and that's wrong.
Okay, what solutions do youhave?
Like, you have the privilege ofcynicism because nothing bad is
gonna happen to you.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
So that message comes across from Jody to Daria
on multiple occasions, like notjust the one I just named, where
she says, I wish sometimes Iwish it could be more like you.
In the episode with the footballplayer who dies, Jody's on the
student council.
And so she's giving a speech.
They're renaming a new goalpostafter this dude before he dies.
(32:21):
And she says, she comes over andshe says, Daria, I'm having a
hard time with Ice with myspeech.
I can I read it to you.
And she's like, she starts outand she's like, Welcome, fellow
students and faculty and honoredalumni.
Do you have any ideas?
Like nothing.
She's written nothing except forthe welcome.
(32:41):
And Daria like offers somethingthat is so sarcastic, right?
And Jody says to her, I have todo this.
I'm on student counsel and it'san important job with a lot of
responsibilities.
And now I just feel bad aboutit.
So she's like, not only didDaria not help her, she also
made her feel bad about the factthat she has to do it.
(33:03):
And she's she sort of calls itout.
And poor Mac then comes up andsays, Hey.
Jodi's like, stop talking to me,or like, shut up.
It's like, you know, she liketakes it out on poor Mac.
Don't call him Mac Daddy.
Anyway.
So I think you're like that thatfeeling that you're naming this
(33:26):
show exhibits through the personof Jody at Daria.
I mean, and Daria is our hero.
Like, we completely sympathizewith her, but the show like
shows us that it's not allquippy quips and light.
It's also, you know, it has thiseffect on specifically on Jodi.
(33:46):
So I think that's a really I waslike surprised, like pleasantly
surprised by that level ofnuance.
SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
I appreciate it also in that it's late.
I mean, I like I think this ismore of a millennial show than a
Gen X show.
Yeah.
But like part of what Gen Xerslike about themselves is that we
are unsurprised and disaffected.
Like, and I kind of get that.
I kind of get the like, youknow, you can't surprise us.
(34:15):
Like, we we've been through itall, we can do.
And like we're so worldly.
We were like that.
Yeah, we're so worldly.
And we were like that as liketeenagers and young adults, and
we are like that as 40s and 50ssomethings.
And there, there's like, don'ttrust the man, don't trust like,
you know, uh major institutions,all of that.
(34:36):
But there's this negative sideto this, which is that like,
well, then you never trustanyone, and nothing is ever
serious, and you can never besincere about anything.
Sincerity is like poison.
It's like social suicide to besincere.
And that is a very negativething.
(34:59):
And so while this now, I knowit's Mike Judge, I'm sure, who
is Gen X.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
I mean, it's a spin-off of his show, but he
does not appear to have beeninvolved.
I actually looked for his namein the credits.
He does not appear to have beeninvolved in the actual
day-to-day work.
It has a different look thanlike King of the Hill, MB Vist
and Budhead.
So I'm not sure how involved hewas from the beginning.
I actually suspect maybe this isthe Gen X cynic in me that MTV
(35:29):
was like, we need more femaleviewers.
Let's spin off a TV show aboutone of the female characters
from Vist and Butthead.
And that's how it came to be.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Well, even so, because of when it came out, it
would have been Gen X,presumably.
Making it.
Making it.
Agreed.
And so good on them for beingself-aware enough to be able to
put embody what we like bestabout ourselves in Daria while
also holding her accountable forit.
SPEAKER_01 (35:56):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (35:57):
I mean to a certain extent.
To a certain extent.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
There was something I thought ofwhile you were talking that I
wanted to name.
Oh, yes.
So to your point about sort ofGen X and like the sincerity and
all, there's also a degree towhich we are we were raised up
on kind of ideological purityand sort of like black and white
(36:20):
thinking.
Like the whole, like what wetalked about in in reality
bites, don't be a sellout.
In fact, one of the characters,Jesse, Trent's bandmate, says,
This guy's no sellout.
And Jane says, Well, that wouldrequire someone to want to buy
what you're selling.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
And that's one way to stay pure.
SPEAKER_01 (36:42):
And Jane looks at Daria and it's like, well,
somebody had to say it, saidsomething because Daria was
keeping her mouth shut.
Anyway, this show kind of alittle bit grapples with that.
There's an episode about plasticsurgery where Quinn's, some of
Quinn's friends, end up gettingplastic surgery.
Quinn is the younger sister whois already very attractive.
(37:04):
And Quinn decides that she wantsto get plastic surgery because
she was cuter than these girls,but now they've had this
surgery, so they're cuter thanshe is.
So she needs to go get surgery.
But then of course they're gonnago get surgery and it's just
gonna be a vicious whatever thatthing is called.
It's a butter battle book.
So Quinn says, too, Doria.
And it it ends up going badly,like the girl who got her nose
done, it like caves in orsomething.
(37:25):
So we have that very clearlampooning of the need to like
change our appearance.
Like the doctor like shows Quinnlike what she could look like if
she got cheekbones and lips andlike all the things, and then
turns the camera on Daria andshows Daria what she could look
(37:45):
like and turns her into Quinn.
So there's very clearlampooning.
At the same time, mom, we getsort of a couple of scenes of
mom, like I mentioned earlier,where she's like, we shouldn't
be judged by our parances,maybe, but we are, and that's
just the reality.
And so she's like almost talkingherself into it.
And there's another episode, notabout plastic surgery.
(38:08):
They end up on a college campus.
It's the alma mater of mom anddad.
And this college student, a boy,comes up to mom and is like, Can
I have your underwear?
And she's like, What?
And she's like really offended,but also a little bit flattered.
But then he says, Our frat housemoved off campus.
(38:30):
And so when we fly underwear onthe flagpole, it can't be seen
from the quad.
But I've been watching you and Ithink yours is big enough that
it would be seen from the quad.
So we get this like kind ofgross.
Not like kind of totally gross.
The whole thing is gross.
What I'm saying is kind of grossis the takedown of mom.
(38:51):
Like what the show wants us tothink about Mrs.
Morgendorfer as a result of thisis what feels kind of gross.
Gotcha.
The college student is all theway gross.
But what the show runners, Ithink, sort of want the viewer
to feel about Mrs.
Morgendorfer feels kind ofgross.
Like sh there's this, she saysthey go up to Jake's old room
(39:17):
and he's like trying so hard tobe liked by these college
students who are like, whatever,old man.
And she's like, Remember whenyou and your friends used to
lean out that window and screamhorrible things at me?
And then she's like, Quinn is onthis campus.
Like she suddenly realizes thather daughter is gonna be the
subject of this.
And there's this sort ofcritique that, like, what we see
(39:38):
is that she knows she shouldn'tlike it, but she kind of sorta
did, which is different than weaccept different things now than
we did 30 years ago.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Like, which is true.
I mean, that happens.
Like, things that I took forgranted as just kind of the way
things were, because I was afish and it was water.
If they happened to my daughter,I'd be like, oh, hell no.
But there was a there was adegree to which like the sh I
feel like the show was likejudging her.
Judged her for it.
Yeah.
Which undercut some of thefeminism of Daria herself, but
(40:13):
actually feels like that 90sfeminism.
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
Where we judged less enlightened women.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Yeah, ideological purity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
And the ideological purity.
It's all related.
It's all related.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Yeah.
Well, I've had this realizationrecently that that ideological
purity that we require ofourselves is the same kind of
like self-policing that likehigh control religion forces on
people.
SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
And that realization came about because of I saw an
interview with one of the Duggerkids who has not exactly
escaped, but is no longerexactly under them.
But growing up, she was toldthat music with drums in it was
like of the devil.
And so she accidentally heardmusic that had drums in it, and
she's like, oh my God, I'm goingto hell, like as a kid, and was
(41:04):
like having heart palpitations,which like broke my heart.
And she was talking about this,and that's why she's no longer
with that specific branch of thechurch.
And it occurred to me that likewhen I am like, I have to get
something, and it's theconvenience, there's nothing as
convenient as Amazon.
And I feel like, oh God, I'm nota good liberal.
(41:27):
I'm not a good leftist.
And I realize like I'm havingthe same heart palpitations
where it's like, yeah, I don'twant my money to go to Bezos,
but I'm one person.
And like, I'm not going to hell.
Now, and this is obviouslydifferent because like she
didn't choose to listen to thatmusic or anything like that.
So it came upon her.
(41:49):
I am making this choice, butit's a it's a choice that I'm
making in this sea of otherchoices that are like are with
or without my agency.
And so like the level ofideological purity that we
require of ourselves, like, atleast for me, makes me feel like
(42:10):
I'm in a smaller and smaller andsmaller and smaller and smaller
box.
Because like I gotta do this theexact right way, or else I'm not
ideologically pure.
And that just might be myanxiety.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Maybe.
But I would label it actually asperfectionism here, as like I
think it's ideological puritythat judges others the way that
this TV show, I think, judgesMrs.
Morgendorfer for uh enjoyingfeeling desired, even though
(42:44):
she's a high-powered woman.
I think it is perfectionism inourselves that sort of we've
been trained that we will beworthy, loved, successful, safe.
I mean, for the Duggar kid, safeif we are perfect, and only
perfect will do.
(43:04):
And it this is a semanticdistinction that I'm making, but
I think there is it's it'sslightly different.
Like, because we're not actuallyasking Mrs.
Morgendorfer to be perfectexactly, though she maybe is
asking herself to be perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
So one thing to be f impossibly fair, although I
think this is way too nuancedfor an MTV cartoon, is like
maybe it's asking Mrs.
Morgendorfer to be moreintrospective.
It's not that it's a problemthat she is enjoying being
desired.
It's not that it's a problemthat she like realizing how
(43:44):
gross it is.
It's that she doesn't spend timethinking about it.
She just wants to get back toher vegetative state.
Maybe.
But that is very nuanced.
That is not something that,like, even for a show that is
smart enough to just let Theaudience get the joke, the
audience isn't gonna get that.
They're just gonna judge her.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
Well, the thing is, Mrs.
Morgendorfer, yes, she we judgeher, we are expected to judge
her.
The show sets it up for us tojudge her repeatedly for not
being introspective.
You're not wrong about that.
You know, even in the way that,like, when she hears that her
oldest has low self-esteem, herfirst reaction is, this doesn't
mean I'm gonna need to have anyparent-teacher conferences, does
(44:25):
it?
So, yes.
I feel like it's a slightlydifferent category when we're
talking about sexuality.
And part of that is that it wasthe mom.
And this is from the teenager'spoint of view, right?
Like there's one scene whereQuinn and mom go to see an
organization expert, and theorganization expert, who's a
(44:45):
woman, asks them to name theirtop priorities.
And Mrs.
Morgan Dorfer lists off a bunch,like four or five, that are
about like number one isspending more time with family,
and then it's about work andit's about whatever.
And then she adds, like, numberfive is like put more spice back
in our marriage.
And then Quinn lists, and Quinngoes, ew, uh, and then she
(45:06):
crosses that off and says adifferent thing for number five.
And then Quinn lists a bunch ofthat are like be more popular,
be like very shallow things, andMrs.
Morgendorfer like judges her forit.
The organization expert says,No, no, it's important to like
be clear about what reallymatters, like no judgment, just
what really matters.
(45:28):
And Mrs.
Morgendorfer turns back to herlist and says, number one, put
spice back into my marriage.
So there's like this throughline about sex and sexuality,
which she's not judged for that,I don't think.
Quinn judges her, but we are notas a viewer.
Quinn's 15.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
Her daughter, yeah.
Yeah, and her daughter andparents getting it off is gross,
but right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
And so I don't know, it's like it's complicated.
It's complicated.
I don't think we are meant tojudge her for that moment.
There's another moment when thekids go, both girls go to the
Alternapalooza festival, and thethey ask the parents what are
they gonna do?
And they say, Oh, we're gonnapay bills.
We're gonna maybe do I don'tremember what the other thing is
that they could say, like someother really boring thing.
(46:11):
And the girls are like, Okay,well, don't hurt yourself.
And then the parents like watchto make sure they're really
gone, and then they're chasingeach other around the house, you
know, like, hey, foxy lady, dadsays.
So, like the idea that they havea sexual relationship is treated
a little bit as a joke, but notto judge them, like a, you know.
(46:34):
But the thing about like her andher like wanting to still feel
desirable to this collegestudent because she's in her
alma mater, that gets messier.
I'm not sure where I'm goingwith this, except that like the
things that we've already talkedabout.
But I do think that like as asociety, like women's sexuality,
(46:56):
especially midlife women, islike a thing that we still are
kind of backward about.
Like it's not a thing that wefeel comfortable thinking and
talking about.
So, and this show has a give andtake.
It it gives with one hand, butit takes with another, on that
score in particular.
Yeah, yeah.
(47:16):
Not that I think that like shewas right to sort of want this,
but also like she was human.
I guess that's where I'm gettingat.
And I don't think we got thatfrom the showrunners about her
at that moment.
Yeah.
So let me see if I can reflectback some of the things that I
had to say about this that youand I had to say about this TV
(47:38):
show, this MTV TV show.
So I think I guess maybe mybiggest takeaway is the way that
you named, which I think isexactly right, that one of the
things that's smart about thisshow is not just that Daria is
smart, but that the showreflects reality.
And so the idea that Daria is amisery chick is less about the
(48:00):
idea that or the hypothesis thatbeing smart equals being sad,
and maybe more about the factthat being smart makes one like
more aware of all of the kind ofweight of the world, which makes
one sad or can.
And so I think that idea of thisshow as a reflection of things
(48:24):
in some degree as they are, isactually its strength.
I think that, you know, the wayin which Daria is
self-consciously uninterested inthe things that teenage girls
are supposed to be interestedin.
I'm putting quotes aroundsupposed, and yet has this crush
(48:46):
on Trent and ends up like tryingto be, at least to a certain
degree, more like other teenagegirls.
Like she put she Jane says, Youhave lipstick on when they're
getting picked up to go to thealternatalooza.
And she says, Stop, I just ate alollipop.
Jane's like, No, you didn't.
I think that is a reflection ofreality, right?
(49:08):
Like teen girls who were smartand disaffected still got
crushes and then ended up liketrying to figure out how they
could be more attractive totheir crush, just like Daria did
with Trent.
Or they were like Jane, wherethey like, you know, went into
the laundry room anyway becausethey wanted to, but then like
(49:30):
he's dumb, but he's cute.
Tried to hide it.
And that makes for the bestdogs.
It's not terrible, boyfriend.
Anyway.
So that was one thing that wetalked about, and sort of the
difference between that kind ofsense of one's place in the
world versus low self-esteem.
Allah Zephad Bible Brocks fromHitchhiker's Guide, Douglas
(49:52):
Adams, and the Hitchhiker'sGuide series, which is not a
trilogy.
Another thing we talked about isthe way that it takes a certain
amount of privilege to becynical, or at least to be
vocally cynical.
In Dario, I think it wasspecifically to be vocally
cynical.
You brought in examples whereit's like actually in the real
(50:12):
world as well, because sure bothparties make mistakes, but only
one is actually gonna activelywork to hurt my well-being.
SPEAKER_00 (50:22):
Only one of them is blackbagging people or shooting
them in the face.
I mean, right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
So in Daria, we saw that through the person of Jody,
who's Daria's black counterpart.
So she is just as smart and justas capable of caustic quips, but
she does not come at things withcaustic quips, in part because
as she tells Daria, sherepresents her race in this most
(50:52):
in this all-white crowd.
And that's a weight ofresponsibility that requires her
to not be sort of caustic quips.
So that's a refreshingly sort ofthoughtful take from this late
90s, early 2000s.
She still was a minor character,so I don't I don't want to like
(51:14):
overstate the case.
But I was impressed with that.
Let me see.
I think what else did what whatelse did we talk about?
What did I forget?
We talked a little bit aboutideological purity versus
perfectionism and the sort offeminism of this TV show, which
is arguable, but not, I don'tthink, I don't think misplaced,
(51:39):
but the ways in which sort ofactually 90s feminism was all
about ideological purity andjudging even women who were less
enlightened, we thought, thanus.
And that is reflected in this TVshow.
In some of the sort of in theways that that Mrs.
Morgendorfer is treated about,like especially in the one
(52:01):
episode that I named, but alsojust in general, kind of the way
that like some of the morestereotypical teenage characters
are treated, notably thecheerleader.
So I think that's all I have tosay about Daria.
Tell me, um, what are youbringing me next week?
SPEAKER_00 (52:21):
Next week, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on
Say Anything.
I'm apparently on a um John Saktear right now.
So I don't think I've seen that.
So I'll look forward to hearingyour thoughts.
I didn't see it till college, soyeah, it's gonna be interesting.
Cool.
See you then.
See you then.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(53:02):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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