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Earthman, your Mickey Mouse is one big stupid dope!
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie delves into a forgotten sci fi gem from her Gen X childhood: Wolfgang Petersen's 1985 film Enemy Mine. A commercial flop when it debuted, Enemy Mine never quite reached cult classic status, in part because it is a sci fi film that's remarkably light on space battles and much more interested in theology, interpersonal relationships, dignity, and parenting.
This film is also the pop culture that first introduced baby Tracie and Emily to the idea of nonbinary individuals. The heroic agender aliens (that reproduce asexually to the confusion of Dennis Quaid's Will Davidge) seem like prescient cultural commentary in a sci fi film forty years removed from our current political "discourse" about whether gender is binary. If only more people had seen this little-known film when it came out, perhaps they may have learned that truth is truth.
We promise not to say you look terrible. Please just listen!
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, sci fi, pop culture, film, cult classic, cultural commentary, gen x childhood, film analysis, 80s and 90s movies, gen x nostalgia, movies, movie reviews, storytelling, wolfgang petersen, louis gossett jr, dennis quaid, allegory, analyzing film tropes, science fiction
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Whoever did the makeup and the prosthetics for
Lewis Gossett Jr.
did an incredible job becausethere's this heavy prosthetics,
and yet they sort of move andbreathe and whatever.
And Gossett, his performanceunderneath of all that makeup,
damn really impressive.
(00:22):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
This is Tracy Guy Decker, andyou're listening to Deep
(00:45):
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1985 science fiction movieEnemy Mine with my sister, Emily
Guy Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, um, I know you've seenthis one because pretty sure we
(01:07):
saw it together, probably morethan once, because this is one
of our stepfather's favorites.
So tell me what's in your headabout Enemy Mine.
Oh, that's funny.
I remember watching it with dad,not with our stepdad.
SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Our stepdad really loved thismovie.
Okay, okay.
So what's funny is um I feellike I've only seen the
beginning of it once, but I'veseen like halfway through to the
end many, many, many, many, manytimes.
So I don't really remember howit begins.
The things that are in my head,I remember Dennis Quaid.
I remember that his character'sname is like Willis David or
(01:39):
something like that.
Yes, Willis E.
Davidge.
Yes.
And in part because LewisGossett Jr., who plays the Drac,
the alien, has a child, and thechild ends up naming their child
after Willis.
Not exactly, but yes.
Okay.
Not precisely.
Not precisely.
(02:00):
And something along those lines.
There's a voiceover at the endwhere it's talking about that,
about something like that, abouthow Willis's name is is added to
the lineage.
Oral history of the crack.
The other thing I remember isthe child, because uh Willis
goes back to rescue the childwho he has raised because Lewis
Gossett Jr.'s character dies inchildbirth, I believe.
(02:25):
And so goes back, and when hefinally is reunited with the
kid, the kid goes, who is calledhim Uncle, goes, Uncle, you look
terrible.
And I remember being delightedby that as a small child.
I know that it was directed byWolfgang Peterson, who directed
the never ending story, and thatsome of the sets from the never
(02:47):
ending story were reused forthis film.
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Yeah.
And so if you watch them back toback, you can actually see it.
And the Drac aliens I know werenon-binary.
They were they were actuallysingular gender.
I don't know what what you wouldcall that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Yeah.
Unigender?
They have um neither sex norgender.
SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
Because neither yeah.
Yeah.
And each one gives birth to asingular child, I believe.
That is the implication.
And I remember finding thatfascinating as a child.
And I remember when becauseDennis Quaid's character and
Lewis Gossett Jr.'s characterare marooned on a planet
(03:34):
together, and they're enemies,but they have to work together
to survive.
And um, the drak it is theirtime to have a child, and Dennis
Quaid is like freaking out alittle bit and saying, like,
women are always worried whenthey're about to give birth, and
Lewis Gossett Jr.
is like, I am not a woman, andis like very offended by that.
(03:56):
And I remember that reallystriking me as a child, and it's
something that's looking back, Ithink is was actually quite
progressive and an importantmoment to talk to think about
like the problems ofmisgendering when you are stuck
(04:16):
in a binary way of thinkingabout things for 1985.
Although considering the fact Ihaven't seen it in, I don't
know, at least 35 years, I haveno idea if it holds up.
Yeah.
I do wonder if it if it has any,if it was at all influenced by
Ursula K.
LeGwyn, because I know she wroteabout aliens.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
It's based on a story, a short story by Long
Ear, Barry Long Ear, a novella.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Okay.
So there's quite a bit in my inmy head.
I also remember Dennis Quaidmentions the Houston Oilers who
ceased to be after the film.
So I was like, oh, I got dated.
Yeah.
So uh there's a lot in my head,apparently.
But tell me, what's at stake foryou for this film?
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, this one was, you know, it was on the list
because it was one of our sharedchildhood films.
And I don't have a good reasonfor doing it now, but it's funny
that you remember watching itwith dad.
I re I remember it being onethat that our stepfather really
loved and like things about itthat I can sort of remember him
sort of talking about differentscenes.
(05:22):
Like there's a scene wherethey're talking about their
cultures and they're sort ofinsulting one another's
cultures.
And um, Dennis Quaid'scharacter, Will, has said that
Mickey Mouse, he has identifiedMickey Mouse as like an Earth
philosopher.
And our stepdad thought it wasreally, really funny when the
Drak character, Louis GossipJr.'s character, Jerry, says, Oh
(05:45):
yeah, well, Mickey Mouse is abig, dumb dope person.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
His attempt to insult Earth culture and like
Will just like kind of busts outlaughing, you know.
So, and I remember our stepdadlike really being very amused by
that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
And and I I sort of have fond memories of watching
it with him.
So that was kind of part of whatwas in my head about it was that
relationship.
So let me share with you some ofthe postcards from the
destination.
I think in some ways this movieholds up a lot better than I
expected.
In particular, actually, thelike practical effects like
really hold up.
(06:25):
Like the whoever did the makeupand the prosthetics for Louis
Gossett Jr.
did an incredible job becausethere's this heavy prosthetics,
and yet they sort of move andbreathe and whatever.
And Gossett, his performanceunderneath of all that makeup,
(06:45):
damn really impressive.
So I want to talk a little bitabout those things that hold up.
I also want to talk about someof the things that maybe don't
hold up as well.
I think there's some intentionabout the power of empathy and
cross-cultural understandingthat I think is great.
And obviously, we still needthat message.
(07:06):
And also in that third act whereWill goes to save the child,
Zemis, there's some at leastlike odor of saviorism.
So I want to talk aboutsaviorism versus agency of the
oppressed in this movie.
I also want to talk about sortof the rugged individualism that
we see from Will from thebeginning that like I think we
(07:29):
were meant to sympathize withhim as a result.
I had the opposite response.
Maybe it was, in fact, supposedto be the opposite response.
Like maybe we were supposed to,we were supposed to think he was
an asshole in the beginningbecause and see his interaction
with Jerry change him.
I'm not sure.
So I want to talk about that abit.
I think there's also somebecause you know, I'm always
(07:50):
interested in this, like there'ssome interesting stuff around
religion and culture that Ithink would be interesting for
us to unpack a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Jerry talking about truth is truth when they they
end up like connecting about howthe drak religion sounds
familiar to Will.
Sort yes, sort of.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Yes, and like though we'll get into it.
We'll get into that.
So that's where we're going.
Let me try and give a synopsisof the plot.
It is a much more linear andstraightforward storytelling
than some of the films that wetalk about.
So I think maybe it should be,we'll see.
I say this every time, but I'lldo my best to keep it, if not
(08:32):
brief, at least coherent.
So it is the late 21st century,and we hear in voiceover and
Dennis Quaid's voice that bynow, like humans of Earth have
like put our differences asideand have learned to work
together.
That was the first piece ofscience fiction.
And we are exploring theuniverse.
(08:53):
We only have 80 years to go.
We can do it.
Yeah.
It's less than that.
It's supposed to be like 2092when this movie starts.
Okay, it's not happening.
It's not happening.
So, like as a species, we arelike exploring the universe and
like colonizing, he says.
And it turns out we're notalone.
And then the like we havevoiceover, and we're seeing like
(09:15):
a scene from space, and thenthere's space debris, and then
there's like a dead human pilot,like in a like a busted-out
astronaut thing.
So we hear that there's oneother species who are this
reptilian race, and we are atwar with them over resources,
which fighting over territory inspace, like that's like, I don't
(09:36):
know, it's it's like me puttingup a fence against, I don't
know, Californian invasion herein Baltimore.
Like it just doesn't make sense.
But anyway, so then we meetWill.
He is a fighter pilot.
He's never even seen Earth, uh,or he doesn't remember.
It's just a memory.
(09:56):
And he lives in this fortresswhere a lot of the time they
just are waiting around as inall war until it gets really
busy.
And we see him jump into afighter plane, these sort of
classic science fiction and Iguess actual reality, two-person
fighter craft.
So he's the pilot, he has aco-pilot, and they're out and
they're fighting these Drak whoare in similarly, you know,
(10:21):
alien spacecraft and you know,that sort of classic, what's it
called, air battle.
And the Drak take out one of hiscolleagues and he takes it very
personally.
Will takes it very personally,and ends up sort of chasing this
specific Drak ship all the wayinto atmosphere.
(10:42):
The two ships manage to damageeach other, and they both go
down on this planet.
The co-pilot dies in the crash,which, oh, by the way, in the
scene with the co-pilot beforethe crash, there's some really,
really gross dialogue.
The co-pilot Joey, who'syounger, says, Let's get this
(11:04):
done quickly because I have adate.
And he says the name of thewoman that he has a date with,
her last name.
She's a nurse.
And Quaid's character says,Wait, isn't she the one we
called the white balloon?
And Joey's like, That's notfair.
She's lost a bunch of weight, orsomething like that.
Like, it's fat shaming.
And I'm I'm going back to saythat because a gross B, then
(11:28):
Joey's dying on the planet'ssurface because he's taken some
injuries in the crash.
And his last words to Will aredon't call her that anymore.
It really hurts her feelings.
And don't let the guys do iteither.
Promise me.
Promise me you won't let theguys like those are Joey's last
(11:49):
words.
Once Joey has been buried,Will's still set on revenge.
So he sees the like smoke risingfrom the crash of the drack ship
and goes to find him.
And that's when we we first seeLouis Gottes Jr.
in the full makeup.
Like he's even taken his flightsuit off.
(12:09):
He's got a little bit of a tail,it's this sort of reptilian, and
he's got this he must have hadlike a dance choreographer
working with him because eventhe way he moves is this sort of
just different enough that youkind of believe that it's like
an alien species.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
I remember it being an immersive performance.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
So the two of them, like, Will tries to kill the
Drak in kind of devious ways bylike pouring jet fuel on the
pool where he's swimming andthen lighting it on fire.
It doesn't work.
The Drak is fine, and Will likegoes to try and take something
out of the escape pod and endsup electrocuting himself.
(12:53):
So he becomes the prisoner ofthe drak.
Pretty quickly, though, a meteorshower starts and big pieces are
falling, and it's verydangerous.
So they have to take sheltertogether in a little cave
nearby.
So that starts sort of a long,like it's a combination of
scenes and montage of them likeneeding to work together to
(13:14):
survive.
We know time is passing becauseDennis Quaid's beard and hair
are growing.
Um, they build a shelter, itfalls over.
Then there's a whole scene withthis like scary monster that
lives underground that eatsthese little crab turtles, but
can't eat the turtle shell.
And so they build their shelterout of the shells because they
(13:35):
realize the shells are superstrong and probably can
withstand the meteors.
The scary monster almost getsWill, but Jerry actually saves
him.
Jerry is what Will calls theLewis Gotz's Jr.'s drag
character.
He has a longer name that I didnot bother to remember.
I apologize.
But, you know, neither did Will.
(13:56):
So at least in the beginning.
Oh, it's sorry, I have it up onmy screen.
It's Jereba Shigan is Jerry'sfull name.
So we see them like starting tolike have to work together in
order to survive.
So the first act is that adeepening friendship, like to
pass the time.
They're learning each other'slanguage a little bit.
(14:18):
There's the scene where theMickey Mouse thing that comes up
because Will says, you know,it's like they always say, if
you at first you don't succeed,try again.
And Jerry says, that sounds likethe prophet, whatever his
prophet's name is, which I don'tremember at the moment.
And he said, No, that was MickeyMouse.
And that's how the Mickey Mousething comes about later on when
(14:40):
they're fighting.
So we learn that there's areligion, and eventually, even
like they've sort of becomethese grudging friends.
Jerry's always reading out ofthis little silver book that he
wears around his neck, like aBible.
And Will is like, What are youever gonna get tired of reading
that?
And Jerry's like, No.
(15:02):
And they eventually in thatscene, then Jerry agrees to
teach Will how to read it.
And from the book, he actuallylike puts the necklace with the
book around Will's neck, aroundDennis Quaid's neck, and says,
the book is given to the pupil.
And I am unqualified to teach,but I'm the only one here.
(15:24):
It's actually a really sweetmoment.
It's one of those like reallystandout acting scenes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
I'm getting goosebumps just remembering it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
So they're learning, and we see Dennis Quaid like
reading from the book.
And then Jerry says, nowtranslate.
And he says something like, Whensomeone does something hateful
to you, do not do hateful back,but rather give him love and
love will open.
I don't know, something likethat.
And Will says, I've heard thisbefore.
This is what you remember.
Will says, I've heard thisbefore in the human Talmud.
(15:55):
Talmon is the name of thisBible, this alien Bible.
And Jerry says, Of course,because truth is truth.
But you haven't heard the wayDrak expressed the truth.
And then he sings it in the Draklanguage.
Oh, I remember the dra, yeah,the Drac singing.
There's like trilling and stuff.
(16:15):
And throughout, there's reallyinteresting, like almost code
switching where they'll say afew words in this like Drac
language and then say it, saysomething else in English.
It's it's really, really thatpiece of it, I feel like is
really well done.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
And that part where um when Will is like rescued by
humans, he's sing singing indrak.
Sort of.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'll get to it.
You get to it.
Yeah, no, I'm just like, I'mremembering how much I liked
that.
It's making me tear up.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
So Will is having a dream.
He keeps having dreams that likea ship is coming, and he wakes
up and he can still hear theship.
And like things are fine, butalso not fine.
Like they're out on a like abeautiful cliff, and like Jerry
is is singing from the Talmud,and then the a meteor strike
hits, and they're like runningfor shelter, and Jerry's having
(17:04):
a hard time, and they have a bigfight.
And afterwards, after thisfight, Will says, We're going
crazy.
We need to move because we can'tjust stay here.
We're going crazy.
If if the meteors don't get us,we'll kill each other.
We need to move.
And Jerry says, uh Jerry doesn'tgo with him.
So he ends up striking out onhis own.
(17:24):
Jerry says he he just doesn't,he wants to stay.
They want to stay.
So Will goes out on his own.
See these like big scenes of himwalking in this like sort of
sandy expanse.
And then he finds humans.
There's like a Pepsi can withthis weird shape, which this
weird product placement right inthe middle.
(17:46):
And it turns out they're humanscavengers and he finds a Drac
skull among them.
And these scavengers, likethey're mercenaries, and they
just strip planets of theirnatural resources and they
enslave Drac to do it.
And we can see that Will isrepulsed by this in a way that
(18:07):
he would not have been at thebeginning of the movie.
So he heads back to Jerry.
And in voiceover, he's like, Idon't know how I was going to
tell him.
He gets back, it's snowing, it'ssuper cold.
And it turns out Jerry isexpecting.
That's why Jerry didn't go withhim, was because he's expecting.
And we like we are told, likeWill like freaks out and laughs,
(18:31):
like, don't look at me.
How did it even happen?
And Jerry says, you know, youhumans get to choose, but we
don't get to choose.
It just happens when it's time.
And it is time.
So the super scary monster thatlives in the ground, like
somehow manages to get intotheir shelter, like underneath
their shelter and nearly killsJerry.
(18:54):
Will manages to save him.
Like he throws with bare hands,throws coals into the monster's
mouth, and they escape.
They run through the snow up toa cave, like up in the
mountains.
While they're hanging out there,while you know Jerry's getting
bigger, closer to giving birth,Jerry teaches Will to sing
(19:18):
Jerry's lineage, the lineage ofJariba.
And this is an honor that Jerryis giving to Will.
And then we learn that thechild's name will be Zami's
because there's like a specificorder, there are five names, and
so they recycle every you know,sixth generation.
(19:39):
It's the same name, and we wehear all the names.
And then when it's time, Jerryis like all sweaty.
And again, like Louis GossettJr.'s performance is amazing.
And he's something is wrong.
You're going to need to be aparent.
And that's the bit you remember,where Will is like, no, no,
you're gonna be fine.
You're gonna be fine.
Women are always nervous beforechildbirth.
(20:00):
And that's when the line youremember, I'm not a woman.
And so Will like edits himselfand says, Well, people who give
birth are always nervous beforethey give birth.
But Jerry's right, something isseriously wrong.
So he he makes Will swear thatWill will raise zombies and will
take zombies back to Dracon, thehome planet, and recite the
(20:24):
lineage before the council sothat zombies can be accepted as
a member of the of the society.
So he swears it, and then Jerrysays, You're going to have to
take him out, take it out of me,take zombies out of me.
Jerry dies, and Will's like, Ican't do it.
But then he can see movement inthe abdomen.
(20:45):
And so he does basically cutthis baby out.
And then we see him, you know,raising this infant, which
again, the effects were like,especially for 85, were like
really good.
He ends up like chewing the foodfor the baby, like a baby like a
mama bird.
He grows very quickly.
(21:06):
Zombie, zombies, they grow veryquickly.
We realize later it's only beenthree years since he crash
landed when he gets picked upagain.
So very quickly, and he saysthat in the voiceover, we see
very tender moments with them.
Like they play football,football, I'm putting quotes
around it.
Like, like you remember theHouston Oilers, where trees are
(21:27):
the other teammates and stuff.
And they just are having funtogether.
We see him call, we see thechild call Will Uncle, and they
compare and contrast each othertheir hands and their hands.
Zami's has three fingers, andWill has Uncle has five.
And Zami's like, wishes heweren't Jack.
He wishes he had five fingersand he wishes he looked like
(21:48):
Uncle.
And he's never even seen anotherJack, only his own face in the
water.
And then we see a ship sort ofgo over their cave, and Will
freaks out.
And zombies is like, why are youscared?
What if they they're humans likeyou?
And anyway, Uncle makes zombiespromise to stay in the cave.
He and Will goes, and it's it'sthe same scavengers that he had
(22:12):
seen before.
He sees them abusing dragslaves.
And he talks to zombies, andzombies is like, maybe they were
friends.
Maybe they asked them to work.
And Will's like, I wish thatwere true, but it is not.
He says a word in the alienlanguage.
The next, I don't know if it'sthe next scene, but we then see
(22:32):
that while Will is sleeping,Zamis goes to see what he can
see.
Will wakes up and realizes thatZamis is gone and like follows
after him.
When he finally gets there,Zamis is being sort of taunted
by two humans, the scavengers,and Will ends up killing one of
them with a he has like amakeshift bow and arrow, and he
(22:55):
puts an arrow right through theguy's throat.
So it kills him, but it alsokeeps him from crying out.
Zamis has scratched the facewith his three talons of the
head bad guy, whose name I thinkis Subs or Stubbs, something
like that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
It's the same guy who plays Leon in um Oh gosh.
Ridley Scott.
Blade Runner?
Blade Runner, thank you.
Leon and Blade Runner, sameactor.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Sorry.
So Subs or Stubbs, the same guywho played Leon, ends up
shooting Will multiple times andtaking Zamis away, the child
away.
And I was really surprised.
Like I was watching it lastnight, I had no memory of that.
And I was like, oh my God, buthe has plot armor.
How is he dead?
Also, he's my narrator.
(23:40):
What is happening?
Not dead.
He gets picked up by like asurveillance group from the, you
know, military force that he iswith.
And he's about to be given avery unceremonious funeral, like
space funeral, when they don'thave dog tags for him.
And so the guy working the it'slike literally a conveyor belt
(24:03):
funeral, like opens the body bagto try and look for it, and he
sees the silver, the chain forthe silver book around his neck
and he tries to take it.
And in the time while he'strying to pull it off, the
so-called corpse, like DennisQuaid, like reaches up his arm
and grabs his throat.
Because, you know, after you'vebeen like mostly dead for days,
you have enough strength tochoke a man.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
Well, they were going for the Talman.
Don't touch a man's Talman.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Yeah, I guess.
So they rush him to, you know,Sick Bay and like his friends
from before, who we reallydidn't see very much, but
apparently they were closefriends, are like, trust Will to
show up where you least expecthim.
The advanced medical technologyof the 21st century makes him
write his reign.
They shave his beard off, theycut his hair back to regulation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
How much does he owe for the medical technology?
I mean, does is he gonna have topay back for pay that pay for
that for the rest of his life?
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
No, it's an advanced world, remember?
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Okay.
So it's he's not American.
SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Right.
So we see him like in hisuniform the way he was in the
beginning.
He's trying, he's like back onthe hangar bay and he gets into
a plane, a new plane, and theguy in the tower or whatever is
like, uh, you're not authorized.
And he said, I'm going.
And the guy's like, no, standdown, turn off the engines.
And he's like, I'm going, openthe doors.
They don't open the doors.
(25:22):
He blasts the doors and he goesback to the planet.
He lands near the miningorganization operation.
He kills some humans, he talksto the Drac who are there, the
enslaved Drak.
He's like showing them histalent and he's asking for
zombies.
And they're like one of themgoes, You are uncle.
Finally, one of them says, Youare uncle.
Of course we know you'rezombies.
(25:43):
He only spoke to me because I'mthe only one who speaks the
Earthman language.
Where is he?
Will wants to know where he is.
He says, Well, he's in theirship if he's still alive.
So Will uses the coat of arecently murdered guard to get
into the ship.
He finds zombies who's a likeunconscious, kind of in like a
(26:03):
cell underneath grating.
He gets him out, and just as hegets the unconscious child out
of this spot, the bad guys comeand find him.
And there's this very tense,like back and forth where the
bad guy sort of sadisticallywants to kill the child while
Will watches, but Will'sfighting back, and so it's it's
(26:26):
not that straightforward.
And it's like part all in likethe mining operation.
So he keeps sticking the child'sbody into this, like I don't
know what to call it, like thefront loader of a bulldozer, but
it's on big chains and likerocks are gonna be poured on top
and stuff.
And we did see a man, a human,like die in the in the mining
operations prior to this moment.
So we know it's deadly.
(26:48):
And eventually it ends when thebig bad guy is shot.
He's about to shoot Will, buthe's shot by one of the Jack.
Meanwhile, the three friendsfrom the BTA, the whatever the
military organization, they haveshown up looking for him because
they figure something's up,right?
(27:10):
So they actually witness thefull reunion when Zommies
finally does wake up, as youremember, and says, Uncle, you
look terrible.
And like they hug.
And then the final scene of themovie, there's a new narrator.
So it's not Dennis Quaidanymore, who says, as you
remember, that Will actuallykept his promise to Jerry and
(27:33):
took Zommies to the Drak homeworld and recited the full
lineage in front of the councilso that zombies could be
accepted as a part of thesociety.
And this is what you remember.
What the narrator tells us isthat when Zommies has its own
child, and they use the pronounit, and brings the child to the
(27:56):
council, Willis E.
Davidge is added to the lineageof the Jabriel line or whatever.
So he didn't name the childafter him, but he does include
Will as a part of the familyline, which they know for
hundred like a hundredgenerations or something, they
remember and sing.
So that's what happens in themovie.
(28:18):
Not concise.
Not concise, but that's okay.
There's a lot of I think fairlycomprehensive.
Yes.
So I think I'm gonna actuallystart with the Dennis Quaid's
character from the beginning.
So we have that horrible fatshaming and just kind of
misogyny in general.
(28:39):
Like one gets the impressionthat I get the impression that
if Joey's girlfriend hadn't beenoverweight, there would have
been some other reason that Willwould have given him a hard time
about her.
And the sort of like ruggedindividualism and the like
(28:59):
manifest destiny kind of afeeling, you know, like I'm
paraphrasing, but it wassomething like, you know, these
reptiles want the best resourcesthat these local planets have to
offer, but they're not gonna getit without a fight.
And it's like later we hearJerry say to Will, like, we've
been here for a thousand years.
(29:20):
Like, this is not like you'rethe ones taking our stuff, not
the other way around.
And as I was watching it lastnight, I was like, I guess in
1985 I was supposed to be like,rah-rah, way to go to that kind
of attitude.
Like, we're not gonna let themhave it without a fight and
(29:41):
whatever.
Now, as I'm talking to you aboutit, I wonder if that's true.
Like maybe we were meant tothink he was an asshole even
in '85 when we watched it.
Because I think part of the arcof the story that the movie
makers wanted to tell was aredemption arc.
Mm-hmm.
(30:01):
Yeah.
You know, from this man who,like, even after his friend has
died, like he's still bent ondamage.
He's bent on revenge to thisperson who, by the end, the only
thing that matters is his child.
So maybe I was mistaken inthinking that that sort of
jingoism was meant to beapplauded, admirable.
(30:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
I don't know.
I will say, like, the reason whyI have such fond memories of
this is because I love lovestories.
I like romance because that isthe most consistent place I can
get them.
But this is one of the lovestories that I loved as a child.
Like the friendship betweenJerry and Will was something
that just really touched myheart.
(30:49):
And then the the parenting, thefact that Will, who was not
someone who was like parentmaterial, yeah, who then became
a I will stop at nothing to makesure that this child is okay and
that I will fulfill my promiseto my friend.
And the the love between him andthe uncle, you look terrible.
(31:10):
Like after Zamis has beenthrough such a traumatic event
because of his love for hisguardian, that is what made me
just adore this movie as achild.
So I think that there issomething to that.
Like, I think we're supposed tosee him as like at least, at the
very least, kind ofself-centered jerk.
SPEAKER_03 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
Even if we sympathize with why he is.
Even if we're like, yeah, okay,he has a point, but you know,
you're taking a little farthere, Will.
I think that there is somethingto be said about like I think
you're you're right that he it'ssupposed to be like we're seeing
this person become better.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Definitely.
And I do think if we break thisinto three acts, with you know,
act one, the crash and they'restill fighting and whatever, and
then act two is them becomingfriends, and then that ends at
with Jerry's death, and then actthree is the parenting and the
rescue.
Act three is like off script forsci-fi in the 80s.
(32:11):
Like that's totally unexpected.
I think we've seen that before.
One commentator that I readpointed out that that next
generation episode that we havereferenced before Shaka when the
walls fell is actually that.
It's that same, you know, thesethese enemies like forced to
work together and like becomemore culturally competent,
(32:32):
interculturally competent inorder to survive.
We've seen this before.
Adding the child in, that'sdifferent.
It's not a part of that usualforced to work together to
survive script.
And I actually found it veryinteresting.
I think there are othercommentators who don't like it,
(32:53):
but I actually I quite liked it.
And I think your memories of itare accurate, that it's very
moving and it's meant to bemoving.
In fact, the implication, likewe see the three friends like in
the flight suits watching, andthey are visibly moved by this.
And there is implication thatthis relationship between Will
(33:16):
and Zommies, well, Will andJerry, and then Will and
Zommies, actually like turns thetide of the conflict, right?
Because Will is there on thehome world, on the Dracon
homeworld.
So there is like definitelysuggestion that this love across
difference can turn the tide ofwars, which is like a really
(33:41):
inspiring idea.
You know, it's no wonder thenthat it gets tied back to
religious ideas, to propheticideas, like this idea that truth
is truth and that there'ssomething universal about it,
just gets expressed differently.
Like I think the movie makerswere trying to show that as much
(34:03):
as tell.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Well, and it it fits with the fact that Wolfgang
Peterson also made never-endingstory.
I mean, like he has uh ideasthat he's drawn to that these
big ideas that uh thatimagination is what can help us
survive, you know, heartbreak,and that's the truth of turning
(34:26):
the other cheek and the truth ofloving across difference is what
can help end a horrificconflict.
SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
Right.
While we're there though, I'mgonna stay there because I think
now one commentator I read saidthat because like it is a drak
who actually like fires the shotthat kills the big bad guy, that
proves it it's not guilty ofwhite saviorism.
Not sure I agree with that,right?
Like I think that does mitigatethe saviorism, but we still hear
(34:59):
in voiceover from a narrator,not no longer Will himself, that
Will took Zamis and the rest ofthe drak back to the home world,
to their homeworld.
And then this sort of idea thathe then becomes, you know, a
(35:20):
part of the line of Zamis.
And even the fact that theseother white people, because
they're white humans watching,like are moved to change their
ways, like there's still sort ofthat inflated sense of the power
(35:40):
of this one person whose mamabear energy, like burned down
the world.
And it's mitigated by the factthat, like, it's mitigated and
not mitigated because the youknow, chosen one stories are
always about an ordinary guy.
And so I feel like though thesaviorism, the dangers of
(36:02):
saviorism remain.
There is some mitigation in thefact that we got there not
through he got to being thechosen one, not through being
really good at sword play or bytraining really hard, but by
opening up to love.
(36:22):
I think that mitigates it.
It does.
And also, he's still responsiblefor like saving, in a literal
sense, these like several dozenenslaved drak and and maybe like
ending the war.
And he does so with this likecomplete disregard for life.
(36:44):
For you know, he's like he'sthere's pretty high body count
once he gets to the miningoperation when he's trying to
save zombies.
And I'm not criticizing him fordoing what he needed to to save
his kid.
I'm criticizing the movie makerfor saying to us, like, if
someone hurts you, then you comeback with love, except these
(37:06):
miners.
SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
So is the body count entirely the human mercenaries?
Yes, entirely human mercenaries.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
So I feel like it's in the context of 1985, I'm
impressed.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
With 2026 eyes, there's some things that like I
might have written differentlyto more fully underscore the
point that I think the movie wastrying to make.
I would have given the enslavedDrac even more agency.
I would have written, even ifthe action stayed the same, but
(37:42):
the voiceover say the drak tooka ship and allowed Will to come
along in order to sing thelineage.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
You know, like they could have left the the actual
action exactly the same, butlike made it clear that the
because the Drac are perfectlycapable of getting themselves
back to their homeland, uh, withthe exception of the the
children, but the adult drags.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
If they have access to a ship.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
So yeah, so I stand by what I just said.
For 1985, I'm impressed.
For 2026, looking back, I thinkthere are ways to make changes,
to give Drac more agency, tomake to more fully actually show
what I think the movie makerswere trying to convey without
(38:35):
changing a whole lot of theaction.
So, so that's something that I Ijust wanted to name.
I'd love to talk about thenon-binary.
That's exactly where I wasgoing.
That was exactly where I wasgoing.
Non-gendered aspect of the drag.
So one of the things that likestood out to 2026 ears that I
was like, oh, in the voiceover,Will is saying these, you know,
(38:57):
creepy, totally not a humanreptilian drak who don't even
have men and women, but somehowweirdly both wrapped up together
in a scaly body.
And I was like, um, I don't lovethe way you said that, Will.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
But that is also part of his journey.
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
Yes.
And I think part of what jarredwas that comes within, I don't
know, two minutes of him sayingit by the late 21st century, you
know, humans were so much moreevolved that we stopped
fighting.
And yet this like very early20th century is sort of
necessarily include transpeople.
(39:39):
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Which again, 1985 was not top ofmind in the way that it is
today.
And like it jarred as I waslistening it to it now.
That said, the movie, especiallyin voiceover, is very careful
not to gender Jerry, not to usehe, him pronouns about Jerry.
(40:04):
It uses it pronouns, which againlike felt like a bit of a speed
bump because in Will's voice,which it is Will's voice for
most of the movie, the narrationis that sounded like an
objectification, but not sexual,like a dehumanization.
Yeah, it sounds offensive.
A derogatory pronoun.
(40:26):
I don't think it was intendedthat way.
It was intended to be genderneutral.
And therein lies the challengeof the English language and how
deeply entrenched gender is inthe way that we talk about
people.
But I was struck by how carefulthe movie was, not always Will,
(40:49):
but the movie to not misgenderJerry.
So there's the moment youremember I'm not a woman, but
there's also this voiceover thatdoes not use gendered pronouns
about him, which in some waysfeels prescient today.
(41:09):
Though I'm really glad we don'tuse it about non-binary folks.
And they can be confusingbecause we use it as plural and
and it becomes like justlinguistically it becomes
confusing.
But it does not work.
SPEAKER_02 (41:25):
Makes me wonder how the film in translation for like
Spanish or German or French,where there are only gendered
pronouns.
It's an interesting question.
I did I did not do that.
Yeah, I have wondered um justhow non-binary folks who speak
those languages, I'm sure theyhave there things like Z and Xer
in English.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Which has not caught on much, really.
SPEAKER_02 (41:48):
No.
But I'm sure there must bethings like that that have
because there's no other way.
Anyway, it's that's a sidebarthat we don't need to go down
right now.
But yeah, I that is veryinteresting, and I can see where
in some ways that makes the draxseem more alien, because to
English-speaking humans, thatsounds dehumanizing, desolizing.
(42:12):
Like, you know, it makes yousound like an object.
SPEAKER_01 (42:16):
Yeah, it implies a lack of sentience.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
Because even about animals, we use gendered
pronouns.
SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
Exactly.
Whereas for a drag, it would becompletely non-offensive because
there is no gender, there is nosex.
So like it is the correctpronoun if you're using English.
And I'm sure that whatever thedrak language is, it doesn't,
you know, it's just notoffensive.
Whereas like saying she or he orcalling Jerry a woman is
(42:46):
extraordinarily offensive.
Because it misgenders.
Because it misgenders.
SPEAKER_03 (42:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:51):
I think that dissonance is actually helpful
in telling the story in someways.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting becauseviewers, though, I think it was
sort of like a speed bump, whichinitially it's interesting.
My initial response to thatspeed bump was, oh, he's still,
he's still like denigrate kindof a jerk, Jerry.
And then I was like, oh no.
So there's an interestingtwo-step process, at least there
(43:23):
was for me, in the use of thenon-binary but also non-person
pronoun about Jerry that I thinkI agree with you that for
viewers, at least those for whomlike language matters, that did
help kind of register the bothgenderless and sexless state of
(43:49):
Jack.
So yeah.
So the last thing I wanna justmention, which I said briefly,
but I actually want to spendjust a little bit more time
underlining.
It is Lewis Gossett Jr.'sperformance, and actually the
young person who plays zombiesalso underneath all of those
(44:10):
prosthetics, it's amazing.
I mean, like the depth ofemotion that Gossett was able to
convey underneath thoseprosthetics.
I am so impressed with hisacting.
And the prosthetics themselves,they were like these little, I
(44:30):
don't know what to call them,but like sort of these circular
indentations on the sides of themouth that sort of breathed.
Like they moved with his facialmovements.
Like there was a dynamic qualityto the prosthetics that was the
(44:51):
attention to detail, so careful.
That's I think what you named asimmersive.
The experience of the viewer,like the space battles.
I have to be like, okay, suspendyour disbelief.
Like, okay, just hit the Ibelieve button.
It's fine.
Just keep going.
The alien face.
(45:12):
I did not, at no point was Ilike, yeah, okay, it's an actor.
Like, I was like, oh, Jerry.
unknown (45:19):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (45:20):
Like, yeah.
I mean, it was just really,really powerfully done.
And I like, especially for 85,that it was all practical
effects.
Like, this was not CGI and postto make those things breathe.
Damn.
Like, really, wow.
I the more I thought about it,the more I was like, holy cow,
(45:43):
really, really remarkable.
And I think that's worth notingbecause I oftentimes we talk a
lot about sort of the lessons,but I also like to talk about
like the craft.
And I think that was a piece oflike taking the craft very
seriously.
Like, we're gonna give you analien.
Like, you're gonna believe thatthis is an alien.
(46:06):
So I just wanted to like bringthat back.
I mentioned that it was good,you know, in my postcards, but I
I did want to come back to that.
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
Like you were saying, it's uh like probably
worked with a choreographer toto with the movements, but then
also the language and singing,there was something very like
there were almost kind of trail.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, and they were all soundsthat could be made with a human
throat, obviously, because theyhad to be, but they still felt
(46:35):
very other alien, other, yes.
And I remember like believingthat Jerry was having a child,
too.
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
And all when we made the other drak, like in the
mine, their makeup is alldifferent, right?
So there was it it there alsowas a attention to detail so
that these people are allobviously the same species, but
it's not the exact same moldevery time.
I was really impressed with thatpiece of this film.
(47:10):
So there's some other things Iwant to talk about, maybe, but
I'm gonna save it for the shitwe forgot to say for our Patreon
because we're running a littleshort on time.
So let me just go back and giveyou the highlights of what we
talked about, and you can fillin anything that we missed.
So, in many ways, this moviereally holds up, especially just
(47:32):
the actual like effects of it,like the sets, the prosthetic,
the makeup, even theanimatronics of the infant
alien, like very believable.
Three cheers for practicaleffects.
Yeah, yeah, really great.
I think there's a way in whichJerry and the Drac species
(47:55):
non-binariness, they're bothsexless and genderless, and
their asexual reproduction wasmeant to be sort of foreign, but
this sort of idea of neither andboth, in some ways was prescient
of a human experience that we'rehaving here these 40 some years
later, where many folks arerealizing that the gender binary
(48:16):
just doesn't serve them.
And I that feels kind ofexciting when I think about that
in that way, especially sincecoming to accept and love this
non-binary person was part ofthe growth arc for our
protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
Our rugged individual, masculine macho man.
SPEAKER_01 (48:37):
Yeah.
Protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:39):
Who, you know, with the misogyny and the fat shaming
from the beginning, and yet, andthen, you know, by the end,
he's, you know, burning downhell and earth to get to this
child who is the child of hismortal enemy.
So that's pretty neat.
I think there are some ways inwhich I think the intention,
(49:01):
this sort of showing us the waysin which love across difference,
platonic love in this case,across difference, and even
across what's the word,antagonism is the way to end
conflict and big conflict.
And that the movie does show usthat.
And also with 2026 eyes, thereare ways in which I would have
(49:25):
edited, especially voiceover, inorder to give more players more
agency, in order to reduce thesaviorism effect that ends up
stealing agency from the people,or Drake in this case, who the
savior saves.
I noted that the first two actsof this film are fairly
(49:46):
expected.
We've seen it before in sciencefiction and even in non-science
fiction, where we see fieldoperatives who, you know, spies
who have to end up workingtogether in order to survive.
Adding the third act with thischild, adding this parenting
component is the piece that issubversive of expectations.
(50:10):
And the movie maker suggests iswhat subverts the antagonism.
And that's really interesting, Ithink.
We spoke briefly about theshowing us that truth is truth,
including religious truth, wherethe aliens Talmon sounds a lot
(50:33):
like the Talmud.
Well, the word sounds a lot likeTalmud, but the actual messages
sound a lot like Christianscripture.
I mean, it sounds a lot likeJesus, but it also sounds, yeah,
I mean, I think you're pointingto the fact that it sounds a bit
like Hillel.
Or just just Tanakh, you know,love the stranger as yourself.
(50:57):
Like, as Jerry says, like, truthis truth.
It just gets expresseddifferently, which is, I think
you found really beautiful, itsounds like when you were a kid
watching this.
I think the movie maker tried toshow us that and not just say it
through Jerry's mouth, butactually like show us with the
storyline.
The last thing, I guess, islike, I'm not sure how much we
(51:20):
were meant to sympathize withDennis Quaid's character from
the very beginning.
I did not particularly, but Idon't know if I felt that way,
you know, in the late 80s andearly 90s when we were watching
it regularly.
I don't know how much of that issort of my contemporary view and
how much was intended in the80s, but for sure he gets a lot
more likable by the end.
(51:42):
Even though he looks terrible,according to uh zombies.
So what are you bringing me nextweek, Em?
SPEAKER_02 (51:48):
So next week I'm bringing you for something
completely different, my deepthoughts about Pirates of the
Caribbean.
Oh, that is completelydifferent.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
All right.
Well, listener, please head overto our Patreon where you can
actually hear more thoughtsabout Enemy Mine or any of our
recent deep thoughts.
We look forward to seeing youthere.
See you there.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(52:17):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(52:37):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Whoever did the makeup and the prosthetics for
Lewis Gossett Jr.
did an incredible job becausethere's this heavy prosthetics,
and yet they sort of move andbreathe and whatever.
And Gossett, his performanceunderneath of all that makeup,
damn really impressive.
(00:22):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
This is Tracy Guy Decker, andyou're listening to Deep
(00:45):
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1985 science fiction movieEnemy Mine with my sister, Emily
Guy Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, um, I know you've seenthis one because pretty sure we
(01:07):
saw it together, probably morethan once, because this is one
of our stepfather's favorites.
So tell me what's in your headabout Enemy Mine.
Oh, that's funny.
I remember watching it with dad,not with our stepdad.
SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Our stepdad really loved thismovie.
Okay, okay.
So what's funny is um I feellike I've only seen the
beginning of it once, but I'veseen like halfway through to the
end many, many, many, many, manytimes.
So I don't really remember howit begins.
The things that are in my head,I remember Dennis Quaid.
I remember that his character'sname is like Willis David or
(01:39):
something like that.
Yes, Willis E.
Davidge.
Yes.
And in part because LewisGossett Jr., who plays the Drac,
the alien, has a child, and thechild ends up naming their child
after Willis.
Not exactly, but yes.
Okay.
Not precisely.
Not precisely.
(02:00):
And something along those lines.
There's a voiceover at the endwhere it's talking about that,
about something like that, abouthow Willis's name is is added to
the lineage.
Oral history of the crack.
The other thing I remember isthe child, because uh Willis
goes back to rescue the childwho he has raised because Lewis
Gossett Jr.'s character dies inchildbirth, I believe.
(02:25):
And so goes back, and when hefinally is reunited with the
kid, the kid goes, who is calledhim Uncle, goes, Uncle, you look
terrible.
And I remember being delightedby that as a small child.
I know that it was directed byWolfgang Peterson, who directed
the never ending story, and thatsome of the sets from the never
(02:47):
ending story were reused forthis film.
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Yeah.
And so if you watch them back toback, you can actually see it.
And the Drac aliens I know werenon-binary.
They were they were actuallysingular gender.
I don't know what what you wouldcall that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Yeah.
Unigender?
They have um neither sex norgender.
SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
Because neither yeah.
Yeah.
And each one gives birth to asingular child, I believe.
That is the implication.
And I remember finding thatfascinating as a child.
And I remember when becauseDennis Quaid's character and
Lewis Gossett Jr.'s characterare marooned on a planet
(03:34):
together, and they're enemies,but they have to work together
to survive.
And um, the drak it is theirtime to have a child, and Dennis
Quaid is like freaking out alittle bit and saying, like,
women are always worried whenthey're about to give birth, and
Lewis Gossett Jr.
is like, I am not a woman, andis like very offended by that.
(03:56):
And I remember that reallystriking me as a child, and it's
something that's looking back, Ithink is was actually quite
progressive and an importantmoment to talk to think about
like the problems ofmisgendering when you are stuck
(04:16):
in a binary way of thinkingabout things for 1985.
Although considering the fact Ihaven't seen it in, I don't
know, at least 35 years, I haveno idea if it holds up.
Yeah.
I do wonder if it if it has any,if it was at all influenced by
Ursula K.
LeGwyn, because I know she wroteabout aliens.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
It's based on a story, a short story by Long
Ear, Barry Long Ear, a novella.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Okay.
So there's quite a bit in my inmy head.
I also remember Dennis Quaidmentions the Houston Oilers who
ceased to be after the film.
So I was like, oh, I got dated.
Yeah.
So uh there's a lot in my head,apparently.
But tell me, what's at stake foryou for this film?
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, this one was, you know, it was on the list
because it was one of our sharedchildhood films.
And I don't have a good reasonfor doing it now, but it's funny
that you remember watching itwith dad.
I re I remember it being onethat that our stepfather really
loved and like things about itthat I can sort of remember him
sort of talking about differentscenes.
(05:22):
Like there's a scene wherethey're talking about their
cultures and they're sort ofinsulting one another's
cultures.
And um, Dennis Quaid'scharacter, Will, has said that
Mickey Mouse, he has identifiedMickey Mouse as like an Earth
philosopher.
And our stepdad thought it wasreally, really funny when the
Drak character, Louis GossipJr.'s character, Jerry, says, Oh
(05:45):
yeah, well, Mickey Mouse is abig, dumb dope person.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
His attempt to insult Earth culture and like
Will just like kind of busts outlaughing, you know.
So, and I remember our stepdadlike really being very amused by
that.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
And and I I sort of have fond memories of watching
it with him.
So that was kind of part of whatwas in my head about it was that
relationship.
So let me share with you some ofthe postcards from the
destination.
I think in some ways this movieholds up a lot better than I
expected.
In particular, actually, thelike practical effects like
really hold up.
(06:25):
Like the whoever did the makeupand the prosthetics for Louis
Gossett Jr.
did an incredible job becausethere's this heavy prosthetics,
and yet they sort of move andbreathe and whatever.
And Gossett, his performanceunderneath of all that makeup,
(06:45):
damn really impressive.
So I want to talk a little bitabout those things that hold up.
I also want to talk about someof the things that maybe don't
hold up as well.
I think there's some intentionabout the power of empathy and
cross-cultural understandingthat I think is great.
And obviously, we still needthat message.
(07:06):
And also in that third act whereWill goes to save the child,
Zemis, there's some at leastlike odor of saviorism.
So I want to talk aboutsaviorism versus agency of the
oppressed in this movie.
I also want to talk about sortof the rugged individualism that
we see from Will from thebeginning that like I think we
(07:29):
were meant to sympathize withhim as a result.
I had the opposite response.
Maybe it was, in fact, supposedto be the opposite response.
Like maybe we were supposed to,we were supposed to think he was
an asshole in the beginningbecause and see his interaction
with Jerry change him.
I'm not sure.
So I want to talk about that abit.
I think there's also somebecause you know, I'm always
(07:50):
interested in this, like there'ssome interesting stuff around
religion and culture that Ithink would be interesting for
us to unpack a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Jerry talking about truth is truth when they they
end up like connecting about howthe drak religion sounds
familiar to Will.
Sort yes, sort of.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Yes, and like though we'll get into it.
We'll get into that.
So that's where we're going.
Let me try and give a synopsisof the plot.
It is a much more linear andstraightforward storytelling
than some of the films that wetalk about.
So I think maybe it should be,we'll see.
I say this every time, but I'lldo my best to keep it, if not
(08:32):
brief, at least coherent.
So it is the late 21st century,and we hear in voiceover and
Dennis Quaid's voice that bynow, like humans of Earth have
like put our differences asideand have learned to work
together.
That was the first piece ofscience fiction.
And we are exploring theuniverse.
(08:53):
We only have 80 years to go.
We can do it.
Yeah.
It's less than that.
It's supposed to be like 2092when this movie starts.
Okay, it's not happening.
It's not happening.
So, like as a species, we arelike exploring the universe and
like colonizing, he says.
And it turns out we're notalone.
And then the like we havevoiceover, and we're seeing like
(09:15):
a scene from space, and thenthere's space debris, and then
there's like a dead human pilot,like in a like a busted-out
astronaut thing.
So we hear that there's oneother species who are this
reptilian race, and we are atwar with them over resources,
which fighting over territory inspace, like that's like, I don't
(09:36):
know, it's it's like me puttingup a fence against, I don't
know, Californian invasion herein Baltimore.
Like it just doesn't make sense.
But anyway, so then we meetWill.
He is a fighter pilot.
He's never even seen Earth, uh,or he doesn't remember.
It's just a memory.
(09:56):
And he lives in this fortresswhere a lot of the time they
just are waiting around as inall war until it gets really
busy.
And we see him jump into afighter plane, these sort of
classic science fiction and Iguess actual reality, two-person
fighter craft.
So he's the pilot, he has aco-pilot, and they're out and
they're fighting these Drak whoare in similarly, you know,
(10:21):
alien spacecraft and you know,that sort of classic, what's it
called, air battle.
And the Drak take out one of hiscolleagues and he takes it very
personally.
Will takes it very personally,and ends up sort of chasing this
specific Drak ship all the wayinto atmosphere.
(10:42):
The two ships manage to damageeach other, and they both go
down on this planet.
The co-pilot dies in the crash,which, oh, by the way, in the
scene with the co-pilot beforethe crash, there's some really,
really gross dialogue.
The co-pilot Joey, who'syounger, says, Let's get this
(11:04):
done quickly because I have adate.
And he says the name of thewoman that he has a date with,
her last name.
She's a nurse.
And Quaid's character says,Wait, isn't she the one we
called the white balloon?
And Joey's like, That's notfair.
She's lost a bunch of weight, orsomething like that.
Like, it's fat shaming.
And I'm I'm going back to saythat because a gross B, then
(11:28):
Joey's dying on the planet'ssurface because he's taken some
injuries in the crash.
And his last words to Will aredon't call her that anymore.
It really hurts her feelings.
And don't let the guys do iteither.
Promise me.
Promise me you won't let theguys like those are Joey's last
(11:49):
words.
Once Joey has been buried,Will's still set on revenge.
So he sees the like smoke risingfrom the crash of the drack ship
and goes to find him.
And that's when we we first seeLouis Gottes Jr.
in the full makeup.
Like he's even taken his flightsuit off.
(12:09):
He's got a little bit of a tail,it's this sort of reptilian, and
he's got this he must have hadlike a dance choreographer
working with him because eventhe way he moves is this sort of
just different enough that youkind of believe that it's like
an alien species.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
I remember it being an immersive performance.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
So the two of them, like, Will tries to kill the
Drak in kind of devious ways bylike pouring jet fuel on the
pool where he's swimming andthen lighting it on fire.
It doesn't work.
The Drak is fine, and Will likegoes to try and take something
out of the escape pod and endsup electrocuting himself.
(12:53):
So he becomes the prisoner ofthe drak.
Pretty quickly, though, a meteorshower starts and big pieces are
falling, and it's verydangerous.
So they have to take sheltertogether in a little cave
nearby.
So that starts sort of a long,like it's a combination of
scenes and montage of them likeneeding to work together to
(13:14):
survive.
We know time is passing becauseDennis Quaid's beard and hair
are growing.
Um, they build a shelter, itfalls over.
Then there's a whole scene withthis like scary monster that
lives underground that eatsthese little crab turtles, but
can't eat the turtle shell.
And so they build their shelterout of the shells because they
(13:35):
realize the shells are superstrong and probably can
withstand the meteors.
The scary monster almost getsWill, but Jerry actually saves
him.
Jerry is what Will calls theLewis Gotz's Jr.'s drag
character.
He has a longer name that I didnot bother to remember.
I apologize.
But, you know, neither did Will.
(13:56):
So at least in the beginning.
Oh, it's sorry, I have it up onmy screen.
It's Jereba Shigan is Jerry'sfull name.
So we see them like starting tolike have to work together in
order to survive.
So the first act is that adeepening friendship, like to
pass the time.
They're learning each other'slanguage a little bit.
(14:18):
There's the scene where theMickey Mouse thing that comes up
because Will says, you know,it's like they always say, if
you at first you don't succeed,try again.
And Jerry says, that sounds likethe prophet, whatever his
prophet's name is, which I don'tremember at the moment.
And he said, No, that was MickeyMouse.
And that's how the Mickey Mousething comes about later on when
(14:40):
they're fighting.
So we learn that there's areligion, and eventually, even
like they've sort of becomethese grudging friends.
Jerry's always reading out ofthis little silver book that he
wears around his neck, like aBible.
And Will is like, What are youever gonna get tired of reading
that?
And Jerry's like, No.
(15:02):
And they eventually in thatscene, then Jerry agrees to
teach Will how to read it.
And from the book, he actuallylike puts the necklace with the
book around Will's neck, aroundDennis Quaid's neck, and says,
the book is given to the pupil.
And I am unqualified to teach,but I'm the only one here.
(15:24):
It's actually a really sweetmoment.
It's one of those like reallystandout acting scenes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
I'm getting goosebumps just remembering it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
So they're learning, and we see Dennis Quaid like
reading from the book.
And then Jerry says, nowtranslate.
And he says something like, Whensomeone does something hateful
to you, do not do hateful back,but rather give him love and
love will open.
I don't know, something likethat.
And Will says, I've heard thisbefore.
This is what you remember.
Will says, I've heard thisbefore in the human Talmud.
(15:55):
Talmon is the name of thisBible, this alien Bible.
And Jerry says, Of course,because truth is truth.
But you haven't heard the wayDrak expressed the truth.
And then he sings it in the Draklanguage.
Oh, I remember the dra, yeah,the Drac singing.
There's like trilling and stuff.
(16:15):
And throughout, there's reallyinteresting, like almost code
switching where they'll say afew words in this like Drac
language and then say it, saysomething else in English.
It's it's really, really thatpiece of it, I feel like is
really well done.
SPEAKER_02 (16:27):
And that part where um when Will is like rescued by
humans, he's sing singing indrak.
Sort of.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'll get to it.
You get to it.
Yeah, no, I'm just like, I'mremembering how much I liked
that.
It's making me tear up.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
So Will is having a dream.
He keeps having dreams that likea ship is coming, and he wakes
up and he can still hear theship.
And like things are fine, butalso not fine.
Like they're out on a like abeautiful cliff, and like Jerry
is is singing from the Talmud,and then the a meteor strike
hits, and they're like runningfor shelter, and Jerry's having
(17:04):
a hard time, and they have a bigfight.
And afterwards, after thisfight, Will says, We're going
crazy.
We need to move because we can'tjust stay here.
We're going crazy.
If if the meteors don't get us,we'll kill each other.
We need to move.
And Jerry says, uh Jerry doesn'tgo with him.
So he ends up striking out onhis own.
(17:24):
Jerry says he he just doesn't,he wants to stay.
They want to stay.
So Will goes out on his own.
See these like big scenes of himwalking in this like sort of
sandy expanse.
And then he finds humans.
There's like a Pepsi can withthis weird shape, which this
weird product placement right inthe middle.
(17:46):
And it turns out they're humanscavengers and he finds a Drac
skull among them.
And these scavengers, likethey're mercenaries, and they
just strip planets of theirnatural resources and they
enslave Drac to do it.
And we can see that Will isrepulsed by this in a way that
(18:07):
he would not have been at thebeginning of the movie.
So he heads back to Jerry.
And in voiceover, he's like, Idon't know how I was going to
tell him.
He gets back, it's snowing, it'ssuper cold.
And it turns out Jerry isexpecting.
That's why Jerry didn't go withhim, was because he's expecting.
And we like we are told, likeWill like freaks out and laughs,
(18:31):
like, don't look at me.
How did it even happen?
And Jerry says, you know, youhumans get to choose, but we
don't get to choose.
It just happens when it's time.
And it is time.
So the super scary monster thatlives in the ground, like
somehow manages to get intotheir shelter, like underneath
their shelter and nearly killsJerry.
(18:54):
Will manages to save him.
Like he throws with bare hands,throws coals into the monster's
mouth, and they escape.
They run through the snow up toa cave, like up in the
mountains.
While they're hanging out there,while you know Jerry's getting
bigger, closer to giving birth,Jerry teaches Will to sing
(19:18):
Jerry's lineage, the lineage ofJariba.
And this is an honor that Jerryis giving to Will.
And then we learn that thechild's name will be Zami's
because there's like a specificorder, there are five names, and
so they recycle every you know,sixth generation.
(19:39):
It's the same name, and we wehear all the names.
And then when it's time, Jerryis like all sweaty.
And again, like Louis GossettJr.'s performance is amazing.
And he's something is wrong.
You're going to need to be aparent.
And that's the bit you remember,where Will is like, no, no,
you're gonna be fine.
You're gonna be fine.
Women are always nervous beforechildbirth.
(20:00):
And that's when the line youremember, I'm not a woman.
And so Will like edits himselfand says, Well, people who give
birth are always nervous beforethey give birth.
But Jerry's right, something isseriously wrong.
So he he makes Will swear thatWill will raise zombies and will
take zombies back to Dracon, thehome planet, and recite the
(20:24):
lineage before the council sothat zombies can be accepted as
a member of the of the society.
So he swears it, and then Jerrysays, You're going to have to
take him out, take it out of me,take zombies out of me.
Jerry dies, and Will's like, Ican't do it.
But then he can see movement inthe abdomen.
(20:45):
And so he does basically cutthis baby out.
And then we see him, you know,raising this infant, which
again, the effects were like,especially for 85, were like
really good.
He ends up like chewing the foodfor the baby, like a baby like a
mama bird.
He grows very quickly.
(21:06):
Zombie, zombies, they grow veryquickly.
We realize later it's only beenthree years since he crash
landed when he gets picked upagain.
So very quickly, and he saysthat in the voiceover, we see
very tender moments with them.
Like they play football,football, I'm putting quotes
around it.
Like, like you remember theHouston Oilers, where trees are
(21:27):
the other teammates and stuff.
And they just are having funtogether.
We see him call, we see thechild call Will Uncle, and they
compare and contrast each othertheir hands and their hands.
Zami's has three fingers, andWill has Uncle has five.
And Zami's like, wishes heweren't Jack.
He wishes he had five fingersand he wishes he looked like
(21:48):
Uncle.
And he's never even seen anotherJack, only his own face in the
water.
And then we see a ship sort ofgo over their cave, and Will
freaks out.
And zombies is like, why are youscared?
What if they they're humans likeyou?
And anyway, Uncle makes zombiespromise to stay in the cave.
He and Will goes, and it's it'sthe same scavengers that he had
(22:12):
seen before.
He sees them abusing dragslaves.
And he talks to zombies, andzombies is like, maybe they were
friends.
Maybe they asked them to work.
And Will's like, I wish thatwere true, but it is not.
He says a word in the alienlanguage.
The next, I don't know if it'sthe next scene, but we then see
(22:32):
that while Will is sleeping,Zamis goes to see what he can
see.
Will wakes up and realizes thatZamis is gone and like follows
after him.
When he finally gets there,Zamis is being sort of taunted
by two humans, the scavengers,and Will ends up killing one of
them with a he has like amakeshift bow and arrow, and he
(22:55):
puts an arrow right through theguy's throat.
So it kills him, but it alsokeeps him from crying out.
Zamis has scratched the facewith his three talons of the
head bad guy, whose name I thinkis Subs or Stubbs, something
like that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
It's the same guy who plays Leon in um Oh gosh.
Ridley Scott.
Blade Runner?
Blade Runner, thank you.
Leon and Blade Runner, sameactor.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Sorry.
So Subs or Stubbs, the same guywho played Leon, ends up
shooting Will multiple times andtaking Zamis away, the child
away.
And I was really surprised.
Like I was watching it lastnight, I had no memory of that.
And I was like, oh my God, buthe has plot armor.
How is he dead?
Also, he's my narrator.
(23:40):
What is happening?
Not dead.
He gets picked up by like asurveillance group from the, you
know, military force that he iswith.
And he's about to be given avery unceremonious funeral, like
space funeral, when they don'thave dog tags for him.
And so the guy working the it'slike literally a conveyor belt
(24:03):
funeral, like opens the body bagto try and look for it, and he
sees the silver, the chain forthe silver book around his neck
and he tries to take it.
And in the time while he'strying to pull it off, the
so-called corpse, like DennisQuaid, like reaches up his arm
and grabs his throat.
Because, you know, after you'vebeen like mostly dead for days,
you have enough strength tochoke a man.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
Well, they were going for the Talman.
Don't touch a man's Talman.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Yeah, I guess.
So they rush him to, you know,Sick Bay and like his friends
from before, who we reallydidn't see very much, but
apparently they were closefriends, are like, trust Will to
show up where you least expecthim.
The advanced medical technologyof the 21st century makes him
write his reign.
They shave his beard off, theycut his hair back to regulation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
How much does he owe for the medical technology?
I mean, does is he gonna have topay back for pay that pay for
that for the rest of his life?
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
No, it's an advanced world, remember?
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Okay.
So it's he's not American.
SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Right.
So we see him like in hisuniform the way he was in the
beginning.
He's trying, he's like back onthe hangar bay and he gets into
a plane, a new plane, and theguy in the tower or whatever is
like, uh, you're not authorized.
And he said, I'm going.
And the guy's like, no, standdown, turn off the engines.
And he's like, I'm going, openthe doors.
They don't open the doors.
(25:22):
He blasts the doors and he goesback to the planet.
He lands near the miningorganization operation.
He kills some humans, he talksto the Drac who are there, the
enslaved Drak.
He's like showing them histalent and he's asking for
zombies.
And they're like one of themgoes, You are uncle.
Finally, one of them says, Youare uncle.
Of course we know you'rezombies.
(25:43):
He only spoke to me because I'mthe only one who speaks the
Earthman language.
Where is he?
Will wants to know where he is.
He says, Well, he's in theirship if he's still alive.
So Will uses the coat of arecently murdered guard to get
into the ship.
He finds zombies who's a likeunconscious, kind of in like a
(26:03):
cell underneath grating.
He gets him out, and just as hegets the unconscious child out
of this spot, the bad guys comeand find him.
And there's this very tense,like back and forth where the
bad guy sort of sadisticallywants to kill the child while
Will watches, but Will'sfighting back, and so it's it's
(26:26):
not that straightforward.
And it's like part all in likethe mining operation.
So he keeps sticking the child'sbody into this, like I don't
know what to call it, like thefront loader of a bulldozer, but
it's on big chains and likerocks are gonna be poured on top
and stuff.
And we did see a man, a human,like die in the in the mining
operations prior to this moment.
So we know it's deadly.
(26:48):
And eventually it ends when thebig bad guy is shot.
He's about to shoot Will, buthe's shot by one of the Jack.
Meanwhile, the three friendsfrom the BTA, the whatever the
military organization, they haveshown up looking for him because
they figure something's up,right?
(27:10):
So they actually witness thefull reunion when Zommies
finally does wake up, as youremember, and says, Uncle, you
look terrible.
And like they hug.
And then the final scene of themovie, there's a new narrator.
So it's not Dennis Quaidanymore, who says, as you
remember, that Will actuallykept his promise to Jerry and
(27:33):
took Zommies to the Drak homeworld and recited the full
lineage in front of the councilso that zombies could be
accepted as a part of thesociety.
And this is what you remember.
What the narrator tells us isthat when Zommies has its own
child, and they use the pronounit, and brings the child to the
(27:56):
council, Willis E.
Davidge is added to the lineageof the Jabriel line or whatever.
So he didn't name the childafter him, but he does include
Will as a part of the familyline, which they know for
hundred like a hundredgenerations or something, they
remember and sing.
So that's what happens in themovie.
(28:18):
Not concise.
Not concise, but that's okay.
There's a lot of I think fairlycomprehensive.
Yes.
So I think I'm gonna actuallystart with the Dennis Quaid's
character from the beginning.
So we have that horrible fatshaming and just kind of
misogyny in general.
(28:39):
Like one gets the impressionthat I get the impression that
if Joey's girlfriend hadn't beenoverweight, there would have
been some other reason that Willwould have given him a hard time
about her.
And the sort of like ruggedindividualism and the like
(28:59):
manifest destiny kind of afeeling, you know, like I'm
paraphrasing, but it wassomething like, you know, these
reptiles want the best resourcesthat these local planets have to
offer, but they're not gonna getit without a fight.
And it's like later we hearJerry say to Will, like, we've
been here for a thousand years.
(29:20):
Like, this is not like you'rethe ones taking our stuff, not
the other way around.
And as I was watching it lastnight, I was like, I guess in
1985 I was supposed to be like,rah-rah, way to go to that kind
of attitude.
Like, we're not gonna let themhave it without a fight and
(29:41):
whatever.
Now, as I'm talking to you aboutit, I wonder if that's true.
Like maybe we were meant tothink he was an asshole even
in '85 when we watched it.
Because I think part of the arcof the story that the movie
makers wanted to tell was aredemption arc.
Mm-hmm.
(30:01):
Yeah.
You know, from this man who,like, even after his friend has
died, like he's still bent ondamage.
He's bent on revenge to thisperson who, by the end, the only
thing that matters is his child.
So maybe I was mistaken inthinking that that sort of
jingoism was meant to beapplauded, admirable.
(30:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
I don't know.
I will say, like, the reason whyI have such fond memories of
this is because I love lovestories.
I like romance because that isthe most consistent place I can
get them.
But this is one of the lovestories that I loved as a child.
Like the friendship betweenJerry and Will was something
that just really touched myheart.
(30:49):
And then the the parenting, thefact that Will, who was not
someone who was like parentmaterial, yeah, who then became
a I will stop at nothing to makesure that this child is okay and
that I will fulfill my promiseto my friend.
And the the love between him andthe uncle, you look terrible.
(31:10):
Like after Zamis has beenthrough such a traumatic event
because of his love for hisguardian, that is what made me
just adore this movie as achild.
So I think that there issomething to that.
Like, I think we're supposed tosee him as like at least, at the
very least, kind ofself-centered jerk.
SPEAKER_03 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
Even if we sympathize with why he is.
Even if we're like, yeah, okay,he has a point, but you know,
you're taking a little farthere, Will.
I think that there is somethingto be said about like I think
you're you're right that he it'ssupposed to be like we're seeing
this person become better.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Definitely.
And I do think if we break thisinto three acts, with you know,
act one, the crash and they'restill fighting and whatever, and
then act two is them becomingfriends, and then that ends at
with Jerry's death, and then actthree is the parenting and the
rescue.
Act three is like off script forsci-fi in the 80s.
(32:11):
Like that's totally unexpected.
I think we've seen that before.
One commentator that I readpointed out that that next
generation episode that we havereferenced before Shaka when the
walls fell is actually that.
It's that same, you know, thesethese enemies like forced to
work together and like becomemore culturally competent,
(32:32):
interculturally competent inorder to survive.
We've seen this before.
Adding the child in, that'sdifferent.
It's not a part of that usualforced to work together to
survive script.
And I actually found it veryinteresting.
I think there are othercommentators who don't like it,
(32:53):
but I actually I quite liked it.
And I think your memories of itare accurate, that it's very
moving and it's meant to bemoving.
In fact, the implication, likewe see the three friends like in
the flight suits watching, andthey are visibly moved by this.
And there is implication thatthis relationship between Will
(33:16):
and Zommies, well, Will andJerry, and then Will and
Zommies, actually like turns thetide of the conflict, right?
Because Will is there on thehome world, on the Dracon
homeworld.
So there is like definitelysuggestion that this love across
difference can turn the tide ofwars, which is like a really
(33:41):
inspiring idea.
You know, it's no wonder thenthat it gets tied back to
religious ideas, to propheticideas, like this idea that truth
is truth and that there'ssomething universal about it,
just gets expressed differently.
Like I think the movie makerswere trying to show that as much
(34:03):
as tell.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Well, and it it fits with the fact that Wolfgang
Peterson also made never-endingstory.
I mean, like he has uh ideasthat he's drawn to that these
big ideas that uh thatimagination is what can help us
survive, you know, heartbreak,and that's the truth of turning
(34:26):
the other cheek and the truth ofloving across difference is what
can help end a horrificconflict.
SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
Right.
While we're there though, I'mgonna stay there because I think
now one commentator I read saidthat because like it is a drak
who actually like fires the shotthat kills the big bad guy, that
proves it it's not guilty ofwhite saviorism.
Not sure I agree with that,right?
Like I think that does mitigatethe saviorism, but we still hear
(34:59):
in voiceover from a narrator,not no longer Will himself, that
Will took Zamis and the rest ofthe drak back to the home world,
to their homeworld.
And then this sort of idea thathe then becomes, you know, a
(35:20):
part of the line of Zamis.
And even the fact that theseother white people, because
they're white humans watching,like are moved to change their
ways, like there's still sort ofthat inflated sense of the power
(35:40):
of this one person whose mamabear energy, like burned down
the world.
And it's mitigated by the factthat, like, it's mitigated and
not mitigated because the youknow, chosen one stories are
always about an ordinary guy.
And so I feel like though thesaviorism, the dangers of
(36:02):
saviorism remain.
There is some mitigation in thefact that we got there not
through he got to being thechosen one, not through being
really good at sword play or bytraining really hard, but by
opening up to love.
(36:22):
I think that mitigates it.
It does.
And also, he's still responsiblefor like saving, in a literal
sense, these like several dozenenslaved drak and and maybe like
ending the war.
And he does so with this likecomplete disregard for life.
(36:44):
For you know, he's like he'sthere's pretty high body count
once he gets to the miningoperation when he's trying to
save zombies.
And I'm not criticizing him fordoing what he needed to to save
his kid.
I'm criticizing the movie makerfor saying to us, like, if
someone hurts you, then you comeback with love, except these
(37:06):
miners.
SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
So is the body count entirely the human mercenaries?
Yes, entirely human mercenaries.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
So I feel like it's in the context of 1985, I'm
impressed.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:21):
With 2026 eyes, there's some things that like I
might have written differentlyto more fully underscore the
point that I think the movie wastrying to make.
I would have given the enslavedDrac even more agency.
I would have written, even ifthe action stayed the same, but
(37:42):
the voiceover say the drak tooka ship and allowed Will to come
along in order to sing thelineage.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
You know, like they could have left the the actual
action exactly the same, butlike made it clear that the
because the Drac are perfectlycapable of getting themselves
back to their homeland, uh, withthe exception of the the
children, but the adult drags.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
If they have access to a ship.
SPEAKER_02 (38:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
So yeah, so I stand by what I just said.
For 1985, I'm impressed.
For 2026, looking back, I thinkthere are ways to make changes,
to give Drac more agency, tomake to more fully actually show
what I think the movie makerswere trying to convey without
(38:35):
changing a whole lot of theaction.
So, so that's something that I Ijust wanted to name.
I'd love to talk about thenon-binary.
That's exactly where I wasgoing.
That was exactly where I wasgoing.
Non-gendered aspect of the drag.
So one of the things that likestood out to 2026 ears that I
was like, oh, in the voiceover,Will is saying these, you know,
(38:57):
creepy, totally not a humanreptilian drak who don't even
have men and women, but somehowweirdly both wrapped up together
in a scaly body.
And I was like, um, I don't lovethe way you said that, Will.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
But that is also part of his journey.
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
Yes.
And I think part of what jarredwas that comes within, I don't
know, two minutes of him sayingit by the late 21st century, you
know, humans were so much moreevolved that we stopped
fighting.
And yet this like very early20th century is sort of
necessarily include transpeople.
(39:39):
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Which again, 1985 was not top ofmind in the way that it is
today.
And like it jarred as I waslistening it to it now.
That said, the movie, especiallyin voiceover, is very careful
not to gender Jerry, not to usehe, him pronouns about Jerry.
(40:04):
It uses it pronouns, which againlike felt like a bit of a speed
bump because in Will's voice,which it is Will's voice for
most of the movie, the narrationis that sounded like an
objectification, but not sexual,like a dehumanization.
Yeah, it sounds offensive.
A derogatory pronoun.
(40:26):
I don't think it was intendedthat way.
It was intended to be genderneutral.
And therein lies the challengeof the English language and how
deeply entrenched gender is inthe way that we talk about
people.
But I was struck by how carefulthe movie was, not always Will,
(40:49):
but the movie to not misgenderJerry.
So there's the moment youremember I'm not a woman, but
there's also this voiceover thatdoes not use gendered pronouns
about him, which in some waysfeels prescient today.
(41:09):
Though I'm really glad we don'tuse it about non-binary folks.
And they can be confusingbecause we use it as plural and
and it becomes like justlinguistically it becomes
confusing.
But it does not work.
SPEAKER_02 (41:25):
Makes me wonder how the film in translation for like
Spanish or German or French,where there are only gendered
pronouns.
It's an interesting question.
I did I did not do that.
Yeah, I have wondered um justhow non-binary folks who speak
those languages, I'm sure theyhave there things like Z and Xer
in English.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Which has not caught on much, really.
SPEAKER_02 (41:48):
No.
But I'm sure there must bethings like that that have
because there's no other way.
Anyway, it's that's a sidebarthat we don't need to go down
right now.
But yeah, I that is veryinteresting, and I can see where
in some ways that makes the draxseem more alien, because to
English-speaking humans, thatsounds dehumanizing, desolizing.
(42:12):
Like, you know, it makes yousound like an object.
SPEAKER_01 (42:16):
Yeah, it implies a lack of sentience.
SPEAKER_02 (42:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
Because even about animals, we use gendered
pronouns.
SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
Exactly.
Whereas for a drag, it would becompletely non-offensive because
there is no gender, there is nosex.
So like it is the correctpronoun if you're using English.
And I'm sure that whatever thedrak language is, it doesn't,
you know, it's just notoffensive.
Whereas like saying she or he orcalling Jerry a woman is
(42:46):
extraordinarily offensive.
Because it misgenders.
Because it misgenders.
SPEAKER_03 (42:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (42:51):
I think that dissonance is actually helpful
in telling the story in someways.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting becauseviewers, though, I think it was
sort of like a speed bump, whichinitially it's interesting.
My initial response to thatspeed bump was, oh, he's still,
he's still like denigrate kindof a jerk, Jerry.
And then I was like, oh no.
So there's an interestingtwo-step process, at least there
(43:23):
was for me, in the use of thenon-binary but also non-person
pronoun about Jerry that I thinkI agree with you that for
viewers, at least those for whomlike language matters, that did
help kind of register the bothgenderless and sexless state of
(43:49):
Jack.
So yeah.
So the last thing I wanna justmention, which I said briefly,
but I actually want to spendjust a little bit more time
underlining.
It is Lewis Gossett Jr.'sperformance, and actually the
young person who plays zombiesalso underneath all of those
(44:10):
prosthetics, it's amazing.
I mean, like the depth ofemotion that Gossett was able to
convey underneath thoseprosthetics.
I am so impressed with hisacting.
And the prosthetics themselves,they were like these little, I
(44:30):
don't know what to call them,but like sort of these circular
indentations on the sides of themouth that sort of breathed.
Like they moved with his facialmovements.
Like there was a dynamic qualityto the prosthetics that was the
(44:51):
attention to detail, so careful.
That's I think what you named asimmersive.
The experience of the viewer,like the space battles.
I have to be like, okay, suspendyour disbelief.
Like, okay, just hit the Ibelieve button.
It's fine.
Just keep going.
The alien face.
(45:12):
I did not, at no point was Ilike, yeah, okay, it's an actor.
Like, I was like, oh, Jerry.
unknown (45:19):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (45:20):
Like, yeah.
I mean, it was just really,really powerfully done.
And I like, especially for 85,that it was all practical
effects.
Like, this was not CGI and postto make those things breathe.
Damn.
Like, really, wow.
I the more I thought about it,the more I was like, holy cow,
(45:43):
really, really remarkable.
And I think that's worth notingbecause I oftentimes we talk a
lot about sort of the lessons,but I also like to talk about
like the craft.
And I think that was a piece oflike taking the craft very
seriously.
Like, we're gonna give you analien.
Like, you're gonna believe thatthis is an alien.
(46:06):
So I just wanted to like bringthat back.
I mentioned that it was good,you know, in my postcards, but I
I did want to come back to that.
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
Like you were saying, it's uh like probably
worked with a choreographer toto with the movements, but then
also the language and singing,there was something very like
there were almost kind of trail.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, and they were all soundsthat could be made with a human
throat, obviously, because theyhad to be, but they still felt
(46:35):
very other alien, other, yes.
And I remember like believingthat Jerry was having a child,
too.
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
And all when we made the other drak, like in the
mine, their makeup is alldifferent, right?
So there was it it there alsowas a attention to detail so
that these people are allobviously the same species, but
it's not the exact same moldevery time.
I was really impressed with thatpiece of this film.
(47:10):
So there's some other things Iwant to talk about, maybe, but
I'm gonna save it for the shitwe forgot to say for our Patreon
because we're running a littleshort on time.
So let me just go back and giveyou the highlights of what we
talked about, and you can fillin anything that we missed.
So, in many ways, this moviereally holds up, especially just
(47:32):
the actual like effects of it,like the sets, the prosthetic,
the makeup, even theanimatronics of the infant
alien, like very believable.
Three cheers for practicaleffects.
Yeah, yeah, really great.
I think there's a way in whichJerry and the Drac species
(47:55):
non-binariness, they're bothsexless and genderless, and
their asexual reproduction wasmeant to be sort of foreign, but
this sort of idea of neither andboth, in some ways was prescient
of a human experience that we'rehaving here these 40 some years
later, where many folks arerealizing that the gender binary
(48:16):
just doesn't serve them.
And I that feels kind ofexciting when I think about that
in that way, especially sincecoming to accept and love this
non-binary person was part ofthe growth arc for our
protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
Our rugged individual, masculine macho man.
SPEAKER_01 (48:37):
Yeah.
Protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:39):
Who, you know, with the misogyny and the fat shaming
from the beginning, and yet, andthen, you know, by the end,
he's, you know, burning downhell and earth to get to this
child who is the child of hismortal enemy.
So that's pretty neat.
I think there are some ways inwhich I think the intention,
(49:01):
this sort of showing us the waysin which love across difference,
platonic love in this case,across difference, and even
across what's the word,antagonism is the way to end
conflict and big conflict.
And that the movie does show usthat.
And also with 2026 eyes, thereare ways in which I would have
(49:25):
edited, especially voiceover, inorder to give more players more
agency, in order to reduce thesaviorism effect that ends up
stealing agency from the people,or Drake in this case, who the
savior saves.
I noted that the first two actsof this film are fairly
(49:46):
expected.
We've seen it before in sciencefiction and even in non-science
fiction, where we see fieldoperatives who, you know, spies
who have to end up workingtogether in order to survive.
Adding the third act with thischild, adding this parenting
component is the piece that issubversive of expectations.
(50:10):
And the movie maker suggests iswhat subverts the antagonism.
And that's really interesting, Ithink.
We spoke briefly about theshowing us that truth is truth,
including religious truth, wherethe aliens Talmon sounds a lot
(50:33):
like the Talmud.
Well, the word sounds a lot likeTalmud, but the actual messages
sound a lot like Christianscripture.
I mean, it sounds a lot likeJesus, but it also sounds, yeah,
I mean, I think you're pointingto the fact that it sounds a bit
like Hillel.
Or just just Tanakh, you know,love the stranger as yourself.
(50:57):
Like, as Jerry says, like, truthis truth.
It just gets expresseddifferently, which is, I think
you found really beautiful, itsounds like when you were a kid
watching this.
I think the movie maker tried toshow us that and not just say it
through Jerry's mouth, butactually like show us with the
storyline.
The last thing, I guess, islike, I'm not sure how much we
(51:20):
were meant to sympathize withDennis Quaid's character from
the very beginning.
I did not particularly, but Idon't know if I felt that way,
you know, in the late 80s andearly 90s when we were watching
it regularly.
I don't know how much of that issort of my contemporary view and
how much was intended in the80s, but for sure he gets a lot
more likable by the end.
(51:42):
Even though he looks terrible,according to uh zombies.
So what are you bringing me nextweek, Em?
SPEAKER_02 (51:48):
So next week I'm bringing you for something
completely different, my deepthoughts about Pirates of the
Caribbean.
Oh, that is completelydifferent.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
All right.
Well, listener, please head overto our Patreon where you can
actually hear more thoughtsabout Enemy Mine or any of our
recent deep thoughts.
We look forward to seeing youthere.
See you there.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(52:17):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(52:37):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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