Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
Well, that was absurd, let's eat dead bird!
Just in time for Thanksgiving, Tracie brings her deep thoughts about the 1995 "romantic" comedy Home for the Holidays. Although the dysfunctional dynamics of the Larson family makes for realistic and funny storytelling, the romance between Holly Hunter's Claudia and Dylan McDermott's Leo seems to imply that women are just lacking a handsome man's tongue down their throat, no matter what they claim. (To be fair, Leo was simply following pop culture expectations of romance of the mid-1990s, but his actions seem pretty gross when analyzing film tropes in 2025.)
Still, the film offers lovely commentary on the nature memory, joy, and family connections. Tracie and Emily conclude that even the actions of the biggest asshole in the film--Tommy, played by Robert Downey, Jr.--make sense within the context of his family's homophobia. The naked polaroids ain't cool, though, dude.
Whether your family is more or less dysfunctional than the Larsons, throw on some headphones and listen in!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://womenshealth.obgyn.msu.edu/blog/memory-telephone-game
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
It's a trope, it's a stereotype.
And I think we as a societyought to stop pushing back
against it.
Like even if you did make melaugh, which I don't think most
of Tommy's hijinks areparticularly funny, but even if
they were, that doesn't erasebad behavior.
(00:20):
You and I have talked aboutthis, like as individuals.
We do this and have done withboyfriends past.
But even as a society, I feellike I like, I feel like we
learned that from somewhere.
I want us as a culture to startpushing back on that.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:43):
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(01:05):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll betalking about the 1995 film Home
for the Holidays with my sister,Emily Guy Birken, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Now, you just told me before wehit record, so I know you
haven't seen this film, but isthere anything in your head
about this film?
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
No, it's one of those like it's of a like a
genre of films that I like the Ithink of I think I get it mixed
up with The Family Stone, whichI have seen, which has Sarah
Jessica Parker in it.
And that's about it, where it'slike, I I just told you before
you hit record, like if you toldme this film was like the
(01:43):
Mandela effect, it didn'tactually exist, I would have
believed you.
That like people like made itup.
There's a movie called Home forthe Holidays, and they're
thinking of the Family Stone orsomething like that.
I don't know how I missed itbecause it was in the prime of
my movie watching life.
Like you, I because I wasasking, when did this come out?
Early 2000s.
You're like, no, 1995.
I'm like, how did I miss this?
(02:05):
I saw every movie that came outin '95.
So I got nothing, likeabsolutely nothing about this
movie.
Okay.
So tell me.
Now I know why we're talkingabout this movie today, but tell
me, why are we talking aboutthis movie today?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about it
because it's a Thanksgiving, oneof the few Thanksgiving movies,
right?
We have lots of Halloweenmovies, we have lots of
Christmas movies, but we don'thave a whole lot of Thanksgiving
movies.
And this is in fact aThanksgiving movie.
So that's why we're talkingabout it now.
It was on the list for us totalk about it now because I have
this fond memory of it.
I don't know how I did see it in1995 when I was a freshman in
(02:45):
college.
I think maybe I saw it a coupleyears after on cable or
something, but I remembered itas a sweet comedy with like a
bunch of a sweet romantic comedyspecifically, with a bunch of
sort of like family drama aroundit.
And it is a romantic comedy withfamily drama around it.
I don't know if I'd call itsweet anymore.
(03:06):
It's also set in Baltimore,which maybe also is why it sort
of came across my desk to usethe idiom.
I don't know.
It had been a long time sinceI'd seen it.
So, and I re-watched it with afriend, and the actual romance
like really bothered me thistime.
It's between the main character,Claudia, played by Holly Hunter,
(03:27):
the love interest, Leo Fish,played by Dylan McDermott, at
his super hottest haughtiness.
Like he really brought it withthe looks in this movie.
Maybe that's was enough for mewhen I was in my like late
teens, early 20s.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
I mean, we let me give you some.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
We're nothing if not consistent here.
It's true.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah.
So let me give you some quickpostcards from The Destination.
I mean, I just did a little bit,but let me give you some quick
postcards from The Destination,and I'll try and do a synopsis
of the plot.
This movie really makes me thinkabout what we accepted in from
romance in the late in themid-90s.
It also, in the person of Tommy,the character's name is Tommy,
(04:13):
played by Robert Downey Jr.,really is making me think again
about what we forgive whensomeone makes us laugh.
Which we have talked about bothbetween us and also like on the
show on air repeatedly, thatsomehow, like if he can make you
laugh, the fact that he's beinga dick gets overlooked.
That is very much the case withRobert Downey Jr.'s character in
(04:36):
this film.
There's also a lot in this filmabout the nature of
relationships and the fact thatthey sort of the tentacles that
they have.
You know, that you walk into aroom with someone and all like a
whole bunch of memories and crapcomes with you.
And this film really illuminatesthat, not to give insight, but
(04:59):
to sort of witness it in a waythat is really beautiful.
I also want to talk about thenature of memories because of
this film, because there's a lotabout sort of like recording
them.
And then there's at the veryend, like before the credits,
there's some things that we knowfrom the dialogue were not
recorded, but it's as if we'rewatching old film of them.
(05:21):
So there's something kind ofinteresting about the nature of
memories and how we save themand who gets access to them.
And then lastly, like this isjust a weirdness.
Like it's meant, she's HollyHunter's character, Claudia, is
meant to live in Chicago, but befrom Baltimore, and she flies
home to Baltimore from Chicago.
But the beginning scenes thatare supposed to be in Chicago,
(05:41):
like I recognize, and they'reBaltimore.
And like, what's happening?
What's happening with that?
That's BWI.
That is not O'Hare, it is notMidway, that is BWI Airport.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Is did it have those big red pillars?
Yes, yes, yes, the red pillars.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Yes.
Anyway, that's probably all Ineed to say about that.
But okay.
So let me see if I can give asynopsis.
So the film opens with like veryclose-in of like someone's hands
working, and it takes a minuteto realize what's happening, but
it's someone restoring an oldpiece of art.
So, like using egg yolk to mixwith the powders with a palette
(06:22):
knife, and it's this old fresco.
This is it's Holly Hunter.
Holly Hunter is Claudia Larson,and she has this job at a
Chicago museum, which isactually filmed in the Baltimore
Museum of Art.
And she's restoring this frescoand she's listening to music on
our headphones, and she's likereally into it.
Her boss interrupts her, says heneeds to speak to her in his
(06:43):
office.
He's acting real weird.
She's like super like, oh, Ijust get lost because the angels
just so her smile is so calm,you know?
She's so calm.
And he says, I have to fire you.
We lost 90% of our federalfunding, and I just can't afford
to keep you.
Which rang really different,maybe.
Now that's yeah.
(07:07):
Too soon, too soon.
Anyway, and then she hugs himand like actually ends up like
smooching him, like kind of he'sthere.
And at first you're like, oh,are they sleeping together?
But no, they're not, becausehe's like, Oh my god, I'm sorry,
I shouldn't attend that.
Weird.
So she's in her car, she's like,it's cold out.
She's in her car and sort oftalking to herself to like get
it together, like it's gonna beokay.
(07:29):
And her daughter knocks on thedoor.
Her daughter's name is Kit,played by Claire Danes, who was
in fact 16 at the time she was.
Right.
She was right off of thecoattails of My So-Called Life.
So Claire Danes is her daughterand she's like, Let me drive.
You're already late.
(07:50):
So Kit drives her to theairport.
She is not going with her tograndma and grandpa's house.
As Kit is about to drive away,she rolls down the window and
says, By the way, mom, I'm gonnahave sex with Tommy or Tim.
I'm gonna have sex with Tim thisweekend.
We're ready.
I paid attention to what yousaid, like we're grown-ups.
Like you see Claudia's face sortof fall.
It's all the wonderful.
(08:12):
Yeah, exactly.
And the cop like makes her driveaway.
And this is the days before forcell phones.
So Kit has given her theboyfriend's parents' number,
like landline on a slip ofpaper.
She's walking through theairport, her very fashionable
wool coat falls off of the likebag or like crossbody bag, and
we see it gets left behind.
(08:34):
She's sitting on the plane, andthe woman next to her is like
very in her face, very nosy.
She does one of the there waslike a phone, which this is like
a real throwback to those days.
There was like a phone in theseat, in the middle seat that
you could like use a credit cardto make a call.
It was like$5 per minute.
It was super expensive.
So we see her make a call.
(08:55):
She gets the answering machineof her brother Tommy, and she
admits kind of in tears a littlebit that she, you know what
happened?
I made out with my boss.
I got fired.
I don't know what I'm gonna do.
And kids probably having sex.
And the nosy, and then she hangsup, she goes, that was moronic.
And the nosy next seater goes,you know who's a moron?
(09:16):
My son.
Like it's so bizarre.
Her parents greet her in theairport in Baltimore, although
they never say Baltimore.
I think like all of the stuffaround it has said that it's
Baltimore.
And I think it is supposed to beBaltimore, but they never
actually say that.
Anyway, her parents greet her inthe airport, and it they are
played by Anne Bancroft andCharles Derning.
(09:37):
So two like megastars, agingmegastars, but megastars.
And they're like adorable andnosy and embarrassing.
Mom has brought an extra parkain case Claudia has lost her
jacket, and she has.
And so it's this veryunfashionable like 1980s puffer
coat, like long duster, like ina bright fuchsia.
(09:59):
And so we just sort of see herkind of like being miserable in
her childhood home.
She says to her mom, I mightchange, I'm thinking I might
change jobs.
I don't know if this is theright place for me.
And her mom goes, Oh, they firedyou.
unknown (10:12):
Oh God.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
So her mom's able to somehow like read her mind.
So many shenanigans ensue.
We think that the brother who'swho she left the message for
can't come, but then he shows upin the middle of the night with
another man in tow, and he is ajerk.
He the brother.
I think he's supposed to be, he,the brother, is a jerk.
(10:34):
The brother, Tommy, played byRobert Downey Jr., is just manic
and all over the place.
And when he comes into thehouse, it's the middle of the
night, they're already likeeverybody's already in bed, and
he sneaks into her bedroom andlike throws the covers off and
immediately like takes aPolaroid picture of her, like
with the big flash, and she'slike, what's happening?
(10:55):
And then he like lifts her shirtup and like puts the camera
under her shirt and takesanother picture, which, like,
what the actual fuck, dude.
Anyway, she thinks that thefriend who's in tow is his new
boyfriend, and she keeps saying,What happened to Jack?
Jack was his boyfriend, who thewhole family apparently liked.
(11:16):
And so she's like a little upsetthat like there's this new guy
here.
We meet her sister, Joanne, whoI think is meant to be the
middle sister, because we hearmom tell Claudia that Claudia is
her oldest and her smartest.
So Joanne comes with herhusband, played by Steve
Gutenberg.
His name is Walter.
(11:37):
The character's name is Walter.
So, like, this is like anall-star cast.
And they have two obnoxiouskids.
They are very conservative, likesmall C conservative, like very
old-fashioned dress that she'swearing with like a little white
lace collar, and like he's likebuttoned up, and we see
immediately that Walter does notlike Tommy, and Tommy does not
(12:00):
like Walter.
Tommy's the brother.
Walter's the brother-in-law.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
Um, real quick, is Holly Hunter, is Claudia
divorced?
Is she a widow?
We don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
We don't know at this point.
We just don't know.
So Joanne and Walter havebrought their own turkey, and
like weirdness ensues.
There's also Aunt Glady, who isthe mother's sister.
So the mother, Anne Bank, AnneBancroft's character's name is
Adele.
So Adele's sister Gladdy isthere, who is totally off her
(12:30):
rocker, and like goes off onthese this weird tangent about
how she's had a crush on Henry,the dad, played by Charles
Derning, like since she firstlaid eyes on him, like 50 years
ago or something.
And the thing is, like, thewhole table is like watching, I
think it's new information, andyet none of them are
particularly surprised.
(12:52):
A turkey carcass lands ends upin Joanne's lap, the buttoned up
one, and she like, and it'sTommy's fault.
And she just like loses her mindand curses at him.
And then she yells at him, Howdare you that he got married to
Jack on the beach in Boston, andshe has people in Boston who are
(13:16):
talking, and it's soembarrassing.
How could he not realize thatthere are other people in this
world?
And you're like, oh, I'm like,oh, she's not just sour.
Like, she's awful to send thatkind of homophobia at him.
And like, he's a jerk.
And I'm sure he's made her lifemiserable, but like the thing
that she actually goes after himabout for being out, ew.
(13:38):
F off.
Yeah.
Like, so in the meantime, likeLeo Fish has been very friendly
with Claudia the whole time shethought he was gay and with her
brother.
Like at one point, she is out onthe street, she's walking in
this terrible coat, and a highschool acquaintance pulls up in
(14:01):
a convertible with another highschool acquaintance.
They're together now, and islike, it's one of those very
awkward moments.
And Leo Fish actually sort ofsaves her from that.
Like the friend, the frenemysays, How old is your son now?
Didn't you have a son?
And she's like, Oh, my daughter,she's actually, and Leo comes up
(14:22):
and says, She's 18 now.
She's we're so proud of her.
And then he says the something,I don't remember the what why
it's appropriate, but he says,Speaking of that, isn't your
coat endangered?
Because she's wearing thefrenemy's wearing a fur coat.
And the woman says, Well, yes,but it wasn't when I bought it.
And he goes, Well, then you didyour part today.
(14:44):
And it's like this beautifulcomeuppance for this woman who
was really trying to humiliateClaudia.
So there have, and there havebeen sort of sweet moments like
that where he's clearly likebeing friendly.
She thinks he's with herbrother.
Now that it's come out thatTommy and Jack are married, he's
like, You really thought I wasshe's like, Yeah, I really did.
(15:05):
So shenanigans ensue, and hesays to her, that the two of
them are in a car together, andLeo says to Claudia, Your
brother showed me your picture,and I wanted to come meet you.
And she's we see that sheactually sort of likes the
attention.
He's very handsome.
She has said to her brother,Yeah, he's a pretty boy.
(15:27):
She thought they were talkingabout him for Tommy, but she did
acknowledge that he's goodlooking.
And then as he's getting out ofthe car, he says, That picture
your brother showed me, that wassomething else.
Then we cut to her, she's in thecar and she's like fixing her
lipstick.
The POV cuts to Leo, who'sinside a diner or something,
(15:50):
asking for a cup of coffee.
And the kid behind the counter,who's like a teenager, does not
is like, we're close.
And he says, Look, I'm here,aren't I?
Like, give me some coffee, Iwill pay you for it.
And Leo says to this kid, forus, the viewers, to hear, you're
putting up this boundary becauseyou're so young, you don't know,
you think there are plenty ofwonderful girls out there who
(16:11):
can make you happy.
And I'm telling you, there justaren't.
So just give me the cup ofcoffee, the two cups of coffee,
please.
But after he delivers thatmonologue, she comes into the
diner and she says, Was I nakedin that picture?
And she's very upset.
A few minutes in the movielater, they're talking and he's
like, Come on, Claudia, give methe time of day.
(16:33):
Just give me the time of day.
And then he forcibly kisses.
Oh God.
Oh god.
And because it's 1995, she'sinto it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
So they sort of end up back at the house, they're
making out on the couch, and thebrother like interrupts them.
They didn't know he was there,like under her blanket.
And she goes, she's like, youknow what?
I gotta go.
And she goes up to her room,which is her childhood bedroom,
and Leo follows her.
(17:09):
And at the door of her childhoodbedroom, she's like, No, like
this isn't gonna work.
Like you live too far away.
It's like, it's just it's toomuch.
Just no.
And I was a little worried as Iwas watching it that he was
gonna sort of be coercive again.
But in fact, he just is likeClaudia.
Like he whispers her name,touches her cheek, and walks
away.
Thank God.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Where does Tommy live and Leo?
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
They left Boston.
Okay.
The next morning we see Claudiaawake really early and look out
the window.
Tommy and Leo are getting in thecar.
Mom Adele is like sending themoff and wishing them well, and
they drive away.
We have a quiet moment withClaudia and her dad in the
basement.
He's watching video or film,like old film of like when they
(17:55):
were when the children werekids.
And we've seen him with thevideo camera the entire time.
Like he keeps being told heneeds to put it down.
And they're watching and theysort of have a sweet moment, and
he tells a story about when theywere kids, when the kids were
little.
We know that he's that he was anairplane mechanic.
He worked at the airport.
And so he got them into when the727s were released, and they
(18:16):
stood at the end of the runwayand they like were very close to
watch it take off.
And the other kids wereterrified and like clinging to
his legs.
But there was my girl.
She was just standing there.
You were fearless.
And then they take her to theairport, and like they all have
been talking about how theycan't wait for this holiday to
be over, but of course they'recrying when they're saying
(18:37):
goodbye at the airport.
And then we're watching Claudiain the airplane, sort of it's a
relatively empty airplane.
And then who should walk downthe aisle but Leo Fish?
So he's on the plane.
He has bought a round trip toBalts to Chicago, rather, where
she's going.
And he just wants to like spenda couple hours with her on the
(18:59):
plane and just see what happens.
He's not promising to movethere.
Like he has his return ticketalready for later that same day.
And the final minutes of thefilm are these look-like home
movies of moments that we knowwere not recorded.
So we see that airplane moment.
(19:22):
We see the moments when AuntGlady and Henry, who is dad,
like danced and he kissed herthat one time, which we heard
the story about.
We see Jack and Tommy's weddingon the beach, which Tommy told
us there are no pictures becausemom asked to see some.
And then we cut back to the twoof them on the plane.
So there are a couple other likekey moments that I think are
(19:44):
significant in analysis that I'mjust gonna say one of them out
of order, which is that theyseem to be acceptance without
acknowledgement of Tommy'shomosexuality.
And except for Claudia.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
You mean Joanne?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
No, I mean Claudia d didn't actually acknowledge Dan
Dixon.
Oh, I see.
I see.
Like she actually was likeembracing of Jack and
everything.
Joanne Neither.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Yes, okay.
That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Okay.
But now that the family knowsthat Tommy and Jack are married,
Jack actually calls becauseremember, landlines.
So he calls to speak to Tommy,and the dad takes the phone, or
he's the one who answers thephone, and he says, You know,
Jack, and I think I really meanthis.
Congratulations.
unknown (20:32):
God.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And then he looks at his son and he goes, You deserve
better.
You're a good kid.
Which honestly, I agree withhim.
He deserves better.
I don't know him, but likeTommy's a dick.
So that felt a little bitimportant, especially with the
Joanne homophobia.
There's also a moment whenClaudia Fowler like goes to
(20:53):
Joanne's house to talk to her,and like Joanne accuses her of
thinking she's so much.
She says, like Joanne says toClaudia, you think you're so
much better than we are.
Which Claudia thinks she's acomplete fuck up.
Like she's convinced she's acomplete fuck up.
There's a scene when the itcomes out when Joanne breaks the
news that Jack and Tommy aremarried.
(21:16):
Somehow it also happens, likeTommy shares, he had listened to
his messages and says thatClaudia got fired.
And then Claudia goes and sitson his lap and she like
basically gives him permissionto tell the whole of everything.
And then we learn that when wehear that Kit might be having
sex, she doesn't, by the way.
We learn that Claudia was ateenage mom and she never
(21:38):
actually married the Kit'sfather.
Okay.
Kit's father.
We learned that when thefrenemy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Why the frenemy was being okay.
So so well, and I because Idon't have a sense of Holly
Hunter's age, so but she wouldhave been about 32.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Yeah, I think she she was early 30s.
Because she says to Fish, I wasa young mother, I wasn't that
young.
She's only 16, not 18.
So it was a little out of order,but it kind of doesn't matter
because it's like a series ofvignettes.
Like, and in terms of like Imean, it's not it's a it's a
slice of life.
In terms of the direction andlike the sets and the characters
(22:19):
and the costumes, if this werejust a family drama and we
remove Leo Fish altogether,where he actually was, in fact,
a new boyfriend, I would haveloved this movie.
Yeah.
Like there's something like realand resonant in the like when
Claudia goes to talk to Joanneafter, you know, the dust has
(22:40):
settled and and they've left,and it got real messy.
Walter and Tommy were likeliterally came to fusticuffs and
were like rolling around on theground outside, and dad like
sprayed the hose on them tobreak them up, like in the
middle of November in Baltimore,or late November in Baltimore.
So like it was real ugly.
And after all of that, likeClaudia goes to talk to Joanne,
(23:03):
and Joanne just she's like shesays to her, if we met, if we
just met on the street and yougave me your phone number, I
would throw it away.
And Claudia says, We don't haveto like each other, Joe.
We're family.
And like I think that actuallyis the heart of it, right?
I would have really enjoyed thismovie.
(23:25):
The insertion of the romance,which is what I remembered most
about it.
Yeah.
Like made it, it left a very badtaste in my mouth.
And one of the things about itthat I want to name too, that
makes it sort of not forgivable,but I do see sort of the
cultural piece of it.
(23:46):
Adele and Henry, mom and dad,like there's this constant sort
of like loving bickering.
And at one point, he grabs herand starts dancing, and she
says, No, I don't have time.
I don't want to dance.
But then he keeps going, and sheeventually like stops fighting
(24:10):
and in fact seems to enjoyherself.
Like she's smiling and dancingtoo.
So that sort of like not justlike not consent, but sort of
against like expressed declinethat then gets overcome and is
enjoyed by the object of that.
(24:30):
We see in this other place, inthis relationship that I don't
know that we're supposed tothink is like perfect,
certainly, but is kind of amodel.
Yeah.
Well, it's at least the modelfor these relationships.
Right.
So I just like I just wanted toname that in in particular
because the coercive moment ofthe like, give me the time of
(24:52):
day and he kisses her anyway,like was so uh upsetting to me
as to you when I just relate it.
And yet it had this precedent.
I don't want to dance right now,Henry.
So I think speaks to a littlebit of like what we thought was
romantic in 1995.
Yeah.
(25:12):
There was almost like this sensethat like she was supposed to
like resist in some way.
The wearing her down was that'swhat courtship looks like.
Which, like, in retrospect,like, ew, ew, ew, ew.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
You know, I've been thinking about this.
We're recording this in lateOctober.
It's just after Diane Keatonpassed away.
And I remember really liking themovie Baby Boom.
Do you remember that movie?
Yes.
I didn't see it for a while andthen watched it again, like, and
I still in my teens.
I don't think this was justDiane Keaton, but there were
(25:51):
several movies that she was inwhere it did this where it
seemed like the point of themovie, the point of the love
interest of the movie was tohumiliate her because the love
interest was the local vet.
I don't remember what happens.
I think she has a panic attackor something like that.
And so she ends up like wakingup in his hospital and she
thinks he's a doctor.
(26:12):
And like, but oh no, no, he'snot a doctor.
He's a vet.
And like she finds out in themost humiliating way possible.
And then there's a similar scenewhere when he kisses her for the
first time, she's it's the samesort of like, no, I'm not
interested.
And then he kisses her, and thenshe like becomes boneless and is
like, oh, this is all I've everwanted.
I remembered loving that when Isaw it when I was a kid.
(26:34):
And then, like, less than 10years later, when I was a
teenager seeing it going, like,what the hell am I watching?
And so it's the same sort ofthing where it's like all we
ever wanted was a man's tonguein our throat.
You know?
Like all of a sudden that thatovercomes everything we thought
we wanted.
It's not that that's all we everwanted.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
It's more that's what we needed.
Because we didn't think wewanted it, right?
Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
It's it's really it's unfortunate.
And then you mentioned thatJodie Foster is the uh is the
director.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
This is not her debut.
This is her second directorialendeavor.
Yeah, I would like I actuallysaid that to the friend that I
watched it with.
I was like kind of disappointedthat it was directed by a woman,
that it also had this thisromance.
Who's the writer?
SR something Richter.
It was not a name that Irecognized.
(27:27):
Screenplay was by Chris Radentor Redont and W.
D.
Richter.
I knew Richter.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Either of those could be any gender.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah, I found that piece alittle disappointing, but also
all the more evidence that likethis was culture.
This is what we thought romancelooked like and was supposed to
look like.
And it did, you know, work atthe time.
So Yeah.
(27:57):
On that score, in terms of likewhat we accepted, I let's talk
about this idea of likeforgiving bad behavior when a
person makes us laugh.
Tommy, Robert Downey Jr.'scharacter, is like there was all
these practical jokes and likenever serious.
(28:18):
And just he does this thingwhere, so he's driving and he
says something that's really,really obnoxious.
And so Claudia gets out of thecar.
She's like, I'll just walk home.
I don't want to be with youright now.
And she's kind of playing, butkinda not.
That's when the friend of meconfronts her on the street.
She's gonna get back in the car,and Tommy's like, Come on, we
(28:40):
gotta go.
We are running late.
Seriously, get in the car.
Get in the car.
And then, you know, when shegoes to the handle, he drives
away.
Like multiple times.
Maybe that would be funny thefirst time.
Maybe the third time, it ain'tfunny.
Like, it's just not.
And the thing with the picturesand that he's showing them to
(29:04):
his friends.
Oh, yeah.
Like, there's nothing charmingabout that.
And yet we are meant to see andbelieve that the relationship
between Claudia and Tommy isreal and based on on mutual
affection, a little bit becauseit was us versus them in the
family.
Like they had each other againstlike their very sour sister and
(29:26):
their like overbearing and justout of control parents.
But also there's meant to belike real affection there.
And I think we are meant to sortof take in all of Tommy as this
sort of lovable road charmingcad sort of thing.
Exactly.
(29:48):
And it's a trope, it's astereotype.
And I think we as a societyought to stop pushing back
against it.
Like even if you did make melaugh.
Which I don't think most ofTommy's hijinks are particularly
funny.
But even if they were, thatdoesn't erase bad behavior.
(30:09):
And I feel like as like you andI have talked about this, like
as individuals, we do this andhave done with boyfriends past.
But even as a society, I feellike I like, I feel like we
learned that from somewhere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
And I feel like we I want us as a culture to start
pushing back on that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
It's also something that I struggle with.
And I feel like it's not solelywhite men that you find this,
but I'm more likely to find itamong white men than not taking
anything seriously.
I really struggle when I comeacross someone who doesn't take
anything seriously because it'sjust like, who are you?
(30:53):
Like, what do you actuallybelieve in?
Because like I'm all abouthumor.
I love to laugh.
I love to make jokes.
I like, if you can make melaugh, I really am glad to be
friends with you.
So it's not I want everything tobe serious at all.
And in fact, someone who takeseverything seriously, I also
have trouble comprehending.
(31:15):
But someone who takes nothingseriously makes me feel like I
don't know who you are.
There's no there.
I don't know, like when thechips are down, what you're
gonna fight for.
Right.
Right.
Right.
And so, and like when you'relike making that like, you know,
(31:37):
pulling ahead while yoursister's trying to get back in
the car, like what safety do youworry about?
Whose safety do you worry about?
Yeah, you know, not that likethere's it's one of those things
where like I know that she's notactually unsafe, but still,
she's under a lot of stress.
She's having a bad week.
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
You're gonna do this to her?
And he and he knows it, youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
She knows the bad week she's having.
And you're gonna do this to herin that awful fuchsia Barca.
Yeah.
Like, and this is someone thatyou love very much.
I don't like who are you?
Who are you really?
If it's like, and you and I'vetalked also about how we grew up
in a family where it was go forthe joke, go for the joke, and
(32:22):
how we've had to unpack that alittle bit.
Even having grown up with that,there is still a like above the
go for the joke, there is like,but you're my sister and like
you're having a tough time.
I'm gonna take care of you, youknow?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Right.
Which presumably is why hewasn't supposed to come to
Thanksgiving.
And he comes anyway, and hebrings a guy he thinks that
might be coach for Claudia.
So, like, maybe in his own way,he thinks that's what he's
doing.
Yeah.
Even like within the universe ofthe movie.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
And I think like what you were talking about is
like the kind of the truth oflike these kind of family
dynamics.
I think that there's somethingvery interesting.
Like, what happened in theirchildhoods that made Tommy this
way?
Like, what made him such anunreasonable dick, but who does
still care enough about hisfamily that he shows up anyway?
(33:18):
And he brings this guy who heshowed a naked picture of his
sister to, but thinks that she'dlike him.
And like, if he's not asociopath, how should he end up
this way?
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
To that question, too.
Like, Joanne is like so type Aand she wants everything just
so.
And at one point she says toClaudia, I can't do everything.
This is like in the parents'home while they're trying to get
everything on the table.
And Claudia like picks somethingup off the kitchen table to take
it to the dining room table andsays, Nobody asked you to.
(33:54):
So then we see that with Joannetoo, where she feels as she
needs to be into control ofeverything.
And then she resents it, which Ithink we all know people like
that.
I have been that personoccasionally.
So the screenplay and theactors, and like they really get
to something that feels likereal and resonant.
(34:14):
And I appreciate that.
I think Foster's direction ispart of that.
I wish she'd left the romance ofit, I guess.
As much as you know, DylanMcDermott is really drew worthy
with the way he looks, but theway he acts is more
cringe-worthy.
Yeah.
Although he is like there's aneasy camaraderie between him and
(34:40):
Tommy.
Like they even like he givesTommy a piggyback at one point.
And thinking about it just rightnow, uh talking out like
thinking out loud right now,that he is in fact a straight
man with that kind of easy levelof comfort and physical touch
with a man uh uh a gay guy whois his boss.
Oh, really?
Like he worked for him.
(35:01):
They are like food sales people.
Like whole things.
Like they go up and yeah, foodand liquor.
It's not that the movie wants usto believe that Claudia's
falling for like a completereprobate or something.
Well, it's and in fact, he'sfollowing the script that was
the script for the leading manin 1995.
(35:22):
It's just that Well, it's from2025 that it's just it's it it's
very unfortunate.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
And the thing is, if he didn't look like Dermot
Mulrooney, would she have beenlike into the kiss?
Dur Dylan McDermott.
If he didn't look like DylanMcDermott, would she have been
into the kiss?
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Exactly.
If he had looked like DannyDeVito or Steve Buscemi, who I
know you find oddly sexy.
But if like if Steve Buscemi waslike, just give me the time of
day, Claudia, just give me thetime of day and kissed her, we
would all be like, even in 1995,we would have been like, Ew,
don't do that.
It shouldn't be a different setof rules.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You did say you wanted to talk alittle bit about like how
Tommy's queerness fits into likefamily dynamics.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
This felt really real too.
Like the older sister Claudiajust fully accepts, like, she's
actually upset that they'vebroken up and she doesn't know,
or she thinks that he and Jackhave broken up.
So her congratulations are likeso genuine and unqualified.
And in fact, if anything, she'sjust annoyed she wasn't invited
or even told, but not that he'smarried.
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
And is there a reason they didn't invite
anybody?
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
It is not explicitly given, but when Tommy talks to
Jack on the phone, Tommy sayssomething like, How's my real
family?
And we see Jack in his inwherever the Boston apartment
with a whole bunch of people.
And he says, Your real family isjust fine and we miss you, and
so and so is doing this, and soand so I think it's really one
(36:52):
can extrapolate that it'sbecause like mom and dad like
don't aren't kicking him out,but also aren't super like they
don't want to talk about it.
They just don't want to dealwith it.
They don't want to deal with it.
And Joanne is activelyantagonistic.
So I don't know why Claudiawouldn't have been invited.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Maybe that was like that would have invited that
would have in involved everyoneelse knowing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:19):
Maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But that sort of like acceptancewithout acknowledgement in the
mid-90s, that actually feltreal.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
And this moment of like, I think I really mean
this, congratulations, is likebackhanded.
And yet I think for 95 wasprobably pretty progressive.
Yeah.
One commentator I read said thatthat final scene that is like
film that doesn't actually existof the beach wedding between
Jack and Tommy was this person,this commentator was queer and
(37:50):
was saying, like, that wasactually the first like
on-screen gay wedding I eversaw.
Was this like few minutes, it'slike, I don't know, maybe two
minutes of film.
It's really not much.
So, so in that, like, in thatsense, like there there was
something there's somethingabout sort of reflecting reality
where the film is not judgingTommy and Jack.
(38:13):
Right?
It and it is judging Joanne.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that piece of it and in thefamily dynamic, and maybe that
explains the clowniness of himtoo.
Because if they're annoyed athim for his antics, they're not
talking about the fact that he'sgay.
Maybe.
That yeah, that that isunderstandable.
That's a in terms of your like,why is he like this?
(38:36):
Yeah.
So that was just something thatlike occurred to me, especially
when I read this commentator whosaid that was the first
on-screen gay wedding that thethat they had ever seen.
That like put it a little bitinto perspective of its time
in '95.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I also wanted to talk about thenature of memories.
As I was watching it, actually,I turned to my friend after the
(38:59):
credits are rolling and I waslike, I don't understand.
Like those final clips, like, weknow they didn't actually exist.
And so and it's so it's actuallyhad to bake for me, which I
don't know if that recommends itor doesn't.
But it's had to bake for me alittle bit in terms of thinking
about like the nature ofmemories.
Because the dad says, I wish Icould have gotten that on film
(39:21):
about the airport moment.
And in fact, the film that wesee is slightly different than
the way he described it.
Because he says, You were therestanding on your own.
And in the memory, we see theother two kids like grabbed onto
his legs, and he's got her inhis arms, and they're both like
looking, like she's not coweringat all, like the other two are.
(39:42):
But she's in his arms, notstanding on her own.
And so one like those subtlechanges kind of make me think
that there's a commentarysubtext layered in there about
the nature of memory and aboutlike this need to capture it
(40:03):
versus like what is real.
I'm putting quotes around thatword.
And like, is which is real?
The way that Henry remembers itor the way it actually happened,
and like, does it really matter?
And like those sorts of likethose questions actually start
to come up for me when I look alittle deeper at the way that
(40:25):
this film ends.
Which I think is really likethat actually is interesting to
me.
But I still don't know what ithas to say about the love, the
subplot of the of the romance,right?
Like, I think like Roger Ebertseemed in his contemporaneous
review, he actually quite likedit, but he seemed to think like
(40:49):
that this wasn't like suggestingthis was the romance for the
ages, just that they might getalong if they had more time.
Maybe.
Maybe.
But like I'm just not sure whereto put it or what lesson I'm
supposed to take.
I mean, like, clearly, Claudia,she says like Boston is so far
away, like this will never work.
(41:09):
Like, she doesn't want just acasual one night sort of a
thing.
We're not left to think thatthere's anything more possible.
Like he's turning around rightaway.
But maybe that's enough, andmaybe that's sort of the memory,
like this thing that dad wasdescribing as his best day ever.
(41:31):
The actu he even says it wasactually like maybe three
minutes.
And so so sort of that like thattension between the fleeting
nature of the joy itself and thelongevity of the memory of the
joy, and the fact that like theactual like logistics of the
(41:52):
moments don't need to align inorder for him to continue to
have that joy.
I'm like saying like this isactually new ideas right now as
I'm speaking.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
So this is bringing up several things for me.
One being that, and I'll have tolook this up, but I've read that
when you remember something,you're actually remembering the
last time you thought about it.
Oh like, which is why memory isso malleable and not something
that you can count on.
Like that's why like uheyewitness testimony is not that
(42:25):
great when it comes to courtcases and things like that,
which is like held like uh it'sa great example of that, that
his memory is that she wasstanding alone, and then we're
see the real story is that he'sholding her.
And so that gets to, I took amemoir class earlier this year
where I was writing, and I'vealways struggled with memoir
(42:47):
because it's like as soon as Iwrite it, I'm fictionalizing it
because anything you put down,like it's not exactly as it
happened.
But the thing is, what Iremember isn't exactly as it
happened because it'simpossible.
And so, like, the nature ofmemory is already fictionalized
because it's gone through likemy own little filter, and then I
(43:08):
am remembering the last time Ithought about it.
And so there are some thingsfrom my kids' early childhood.
So we happen to get my youngerson's first steps on video, and
it's on social media, one of thesocial media platforms that you
know shows you things like onthis day so many years ago.
(43:30):
So I see it every year.
And I don't recall my olderson's first steps.
And I've wondered like it's ajoy to see that every time.
But I now don't remember, like,because it was my husband taking
the video.
So I remember seeing the video.
(43:50):
I don't remember being myselfbecause my son was And watching
him take him take the stepstowards me because he's walking
towards me.
I remember seeing it from theside.
And so from from your husband'sfrom my husband's point of view,
and so like that doesn't makelike re repeatedly seeing this
(44:11):
any less joyful.
Every time I see it, it makes mehappy.
But at the same time, like I'velost the point of view.
That's something that I've cometo appreciate as I'm thinking
about, because I get anxiouswhen I think about the fact that
like once I'm gone, all of myexperiences are gone.
But they're mine and like theykind of have to be gone when I'm
(44:39):
gone.
You know, like that that findingthat balance between like if I
were to like have them allrecorded in some way, they'd
still be gone because you'd onlyhave it from the side.
You wouldn't have the firstperson POV that I've lost
anyway, because it was myhusband who took the video.
Because it's the nature ofmemories.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that definitely alignswith sort of whether consciously
or unconsciously is happeningfor Foster.
I think that's a Jody Fosterthing.
I think this is a directorialthing to have those final
moments the way that they were.
Yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
It's quite a lot for a throw away a little rom-com.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Yeah.
So the last thing I'll justmention because it was actually
really funny.
It was one time when both myfriend and I laughed really
hard, was near the end, they'rewatching the TV, or at some
point they're watching the TV.
Claudia and her dad are watchingTV, and it's like maybe like a
32-inch tube TV.
And she says, That's a reallybig TV, dad.
And he says, Yeah, it's too big.
(45:43):
And I'm watching it on my like50-inch like flat screen, you
know?
Like that was that actually waspretty funny.
We both laughed out loud.
So there's actually kind of alot in this movie, as much as it
was like, yeah, like you say,kind of a throwaway rom-com.
It passes Bechtel so many ways.
That's right.
So many ways.
Left, right, and center.
So, as a reminder, listeners,the Bechtel test from Allison
(46:05):
Bechtel, who is an amazingcartoonist.
You should check out her work.
We ask ourselves threequestions.
Are there at least two namedfemale characters?
Yes.
Do they talk to each other?
Yes.
Do they talk to each other aboutsomething other than a man or a
boy?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Like there's Adele and Claudiatalk about things other than
men, and Claudia and Joannetalk, and Claudia and Kit talk,
(46:27):
and Joanne and Adele talk, likeall of the many named female
characters talk to one anotherabout many things besides men
and boys.
So Aunt Gladdy and Claudia talkabout things other than men and
boys.
So that's a good thing.
It still has a bit of an ickfactor, but it does pass back
time.
So let me see if I can reflectback some of the things that I
(46:49):
brought you, some of my deepthoughts about home for the
holidays, just in time forThanksgiving.
So this film has kind of an ickypicture of like courtship and
romance.
I think is characteristic of thetime.
But there is a sense that, like,even if she's saying no, she
(47:09):
actually really does want that,whatever that might be, in this
case, his tongue down herthroat.
And he has sort of a his task incourtship is to kind of wear her
down, to interpret that no,which is really gross.
Now, to the film's credit, thankGod, when he's standing at the
(47:32):
door of her bedroom, it wasreally gross.
The way he was trying to wearher down right there, he was
like, Come on, Claudia, bebrave.
Which, like, ew, yucky, dude,there's no there's no moral
merit in sleeping with you.
But I don't need bravery toanyway.
SPEAKER_01 (47:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Get in a pan.
But when she is like, yeah, no,he sort of expresses affection
for her and walks away.
Thank God.
But earlier in the film, like heforcibly kisses her and turns
out she likes it.
Which gross.
That's a choice.
That's a choice.
(48:09):
That's a writing and adirectorial choice.
What this film does really,really well and is like very
resonant is sort of the familydynamic where people, even
though outside of this childhoodhome are like fully formed
adults, like they get back intotheir childhood space and they
are snarking at each other liketheir kids.
(48:31):
And all of the old hurts come tothe surface at this Thanksgiving
table, which reads as very, verytrue.
It just reads as real and theway that people are.
And even some of the types,right?
The overfunctioning middle childwho feels like she has to do
everything, even though no oneasked her to.
(48:52):
And she's resentful for havingto do everything.
Like, I know her.
I've been her.
Like that really reads as true.
I would never castigate mysibling for getting married
publicly in an embarrassing way.
But hey, look, it was a moonbounce.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
It was fun.
SPEAKER_00 (49:15):
That motorcycle made great.
Baked into that family dynamicis also Tommy, the character
Tommy, played by Robert DowneyJr., his queerness, his gayness,
which is like also, again, likeI think characteristic of the
time where there's from theother characters, most of them,
(49:36):
an acceptance without a fullacknowledgement.
Like, yeah, it's okay thatyou're gay, but like, don't put
it in my face from most of thefan the rest of the family.
And even this moment from thedad, like, I think I mean this,
congratulations to the husband,which I think for 95 was
probably pretty progressive.
It's it does not feel that wayanymore.
The there was also like theykept asking Tommy if he had worn
(49:58):
a dress, which was WTF.
Yeah.
They just have a hard timeimagining a wedding without a
dress, apparently.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
Because that's an integral part of a service, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
Like obviously.
So in our talking, we alsowondered if maybe Tommy's
charming roguishness, which doesnot read as particularly
charming in 2025, but maybethere was something of that that
was a coping mechanism todistract the family from talking
about Tommy's gayness becausethey were too busy talking about
(50:33):
his antics that you and I kindof speculated about.
In answer to your question, likewhat made him like this?
Right.
He his antics are really grossand embarrassing and not okay.
And we're meant to accept thembecause Claudia does as proxy
for the audience.
We're meant to also accept thembecause the the movie's from her
point of view.
But there was some interestingstuff in there, I think, about
(50:56):
the nature of memories.
And that's made possible in partby the medium of film, right?
And the question about likememories committed to film or
some other thing, that then thatcapture becomes real rather than
the memories.
And then you shared an anecdoteabout how you've lost the point
of view of your younger kids'first steps because your memory
(51:18):
is tied up in the video that youhave of it, which was from your
husband's point of view at thetime, which I think is a really
interesting kind of personallens reflection of what I think
this film is getting at aboutthe nature of memory and
recording those memories.
I was a little disappointed thatit had this yucky romance stuff
and was also directed by awoman.
(51:39):
At the same time, there arethings about her direction that
were masterful.
I think the family dynamics, thechoices about the home, like all
the little knickknacks and shitthat's in the home that like
makes sense for people who'vebeen living there for 40 years
or whatever.
Like it really was believable.
I had a moment very early onwhere I was like, that's not
(52:00):
Chicago, that's the BaltimoreMuseum of Art.
That's not O'Hare.
That's the that's BWI.
And then they were supposed tohave flown from.
And so, and then in my head, I'mthinking, like, well, maybe she
only had to pay for like onlocation in one city if she did
it that way.
Which I mean, that I guess thatmakes sense.
Because the other neighborhoodscenes definitely do look like
Baltimore.
I don't know.
(52:20):
As someone who's lived in bothChicago and Baltimore, like I
wanted this movie to be betterthan it was.
SPEAKER_01 (52:27):
I wanted it to be on location in both cities.
SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
But I guess you, you know, you take what you can get.
Anyway, what did I forget?
Did I forget anything that wetalked about?
No, no, I think that's you thinkyou you got everything.
Well, listeners, I hope that youare able to leave some of the
drama away from the Thanksgivingtable.
But if you can't, we have awhole back catalog and you can
(52:53):
go distract yourself bylistening to old episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (52:58):
Yes.
Just put on the bow'sheadphones, you can't hear
anything else.
Just us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:03):
Just laugh with us.
All right.
Well, so next time, Em, what areyou doing?
I'm bringing you my deepthoughts on Strictly Ballroom.
Oh that one.
I loved that movie.
Yeah.
Hi.
So I'll look forward to thatthen.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
(53:24):
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(53:46):
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
It's a trope, it's a stereotype.
And I think we as a societyought to stop pushing back
against it.
Like even if you did make melaugh, which I don't think most
of Tommy's hijinks areparticularly funny, but even if
they were, that doesn't erasebad behavior.
(00:20):
You and I have talked aboutthis, like as individuals.
We do this and have done withboyfriends past.
But even as a society, I feellike I like, I feel like we
learned that from somewhere.
I want us as a culture to startpushing back on that.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:43):
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(01:05):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll betalking about the 1995 film Home
for the Holidays with my sister,Emily Guy Birken, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Now, you just told me before wehit record, so I know you
haven't seen this film, but isthere anything in your head
about this film?
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
No, it's one of those like it's of a like a
genre of films that I like the Ithink of I think I get it mixed
up with The Family Stone, whichI have seen, which has Sarah
Jessica Parker in it.
And that's about it, where it'slike, I I just told you before
you hit record, like if you toldme this film was like the
(01:43):
Mandela effect, it didn'tactually exist, I would have
believed you.
That like people like made itup.
There's a movie called Home forthe Holidays, and they're
thinking of the Family Stone orsomething like that.
I don't know how I missed itbecause it was in the prime of
my movie watching life.
Like you, I because I wasasking, when did this come out?
Early 2000s.
You're like, no, 1995.
I'm like, how did I miss this?
(02:05):
I saw every movie that came outin '95.
So I got nothing, likeabsolutely nothing about this
movie.
Okay.
So tell me.
Now I know why we're talkingabout this movie today, but tell
me, why are we talking aboutthis movie today?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Yeah, well, right now we're talking about it
because it's a Thanksgiving, oneof the few Thanksgiving movies,
right?
We have lots of Halloweenmovies, we have lots of
Christmas movies, but we don'thave a whole lot of Thanksgiving
movies.
And this is in fact aThanksgiving movie.
So that's why we're talkingabout it now.
It was on the list for us totalk about it now because I have
this fond memory of it.
I don't know how I did see it in1995 when I was a freshman in
(02:45):
college.
I think maybe I saw it a coupleyears after on cable or
something, but I remembered itas a sweet comedy with like a
bunch of a sweet romantic comedyspecifically, with a bunch of
sort of like family drama aroundit.
And it is a romantic comedy withfamily drama around it.
I don't know if I'd call itsweet anymore.
(03:06):
It's also set in Baltimore,which maybe also is why it sort
of came across my desk to usethe idiom.
I don't know.
It had been a long time sinceI'd seen it.
So, and I re-watched it with afriend, and the actual romance
like really bothered me thistime.
It's between the main character,Claudia, played by Holly Hunter,
(03:27):
the love interest, Leo Fish,played by Dylan McDermott, at
his super hottest haughtiness.
Like he really brought it withthe looks in this movie.
Maybe that's was enough for mewhen I was in my like late
teens, early 20s.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
I mean, we let me give you some.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
We're nothing if not consistent here.
It's true.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah.
So let me give you some quickpostcards from The Destination.
I mean, I just did a little bit,but let me give you some quick
postcards from The Destination,and I'll try and do a synopsis
of the plot.
This movie really makes me thinkabout what we accepted in from
romance in the late in themid-90s.
It also, in the person of Tommy,the character's name is Tommy,
(04:13):
played by Robert Downey Jr.,really is making me think again
about what we forgive whensomeone makes us laugh.
Which we have talked about bothbetween us and also like on the
show on air repeatedly, thatsomehow, like if he can make you
laugh, the fact that he's beinga dick gets overlooked.
That is very much the case withRobert Downey Jr.'s character in
(04:36):
this film.
There's also a lot in this filmabout the nature of
relationships and the fact thatthey sort of the tentacles that
they have.
You know, that you walk into aroom with someone and all like a
whole bunch of memories and crapcomes with you.
And this film really illuminatesthat, not to give insight, but
(04:59):
to sort of witness it in a waythat is really beautiful.
I also want to talk about thenature of memories because of
this film, because there's a lotabout sort of like recording
them.
And then there's at the veryend, like before the credits,
there's some things that we knowfrom the dialogue were not
recorded, but it's as if we'rewatching old film of them.
(05:21):
So there's something kind ofinteresting about the nature of
memories and how we save themand who gets access to them.
And then lastly, like this isjust a weirdness.
Like it's meant, she's HollyHunter's character, Claudia, is
meant to live in Chicago, but befrom Baltimore, and she flies
home to Baltimore from Chicago.
But the beginning scenes thatare supposed to be in Chicago,
(05:41):
like I recognize, and they'reBaltimore.
And like, what's happening?
What's happening with that?
That's BWI.
That is not O'Hare, it is notMidway, that is BWI Airport.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Is did it have those big red pillars?
Yes, yes, yes, the red pillars.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Yes.
Anyway, that's probably all Ineed to say about that.
But okay.
So let me see if I can give asynopsis.
So the film opens with like veryclose-in of like someone's hands
working, and it takes a minuteto realize what's happening, but
it's someone restoring an oldpiece of art.
So, like using egg yolk to mixwith the powders with a palette
(06:22):
knife, and it's this old fresco.
This is it's Holly Hunter.
Holly Hunter is Claudia Larson,and she has this job at a
Chicago museum, which isactually filmed in the Baltimore
Museum of Art.
And she's restoring this frescoand she's listening to music on
our headphones, and she's likereally into it.
Her boss interrupts her, says heneeds to speak to her in his
(06:43):
office.
He's acting real weird.
She's like super like, oh, Ijust get lost because the angels
just so her smile is so calm,you know?
She's so calm.
And he says, I have to fire you.
We lost 90% of our federalfunding, and I just can't afford
to keep you.
Which rang really different,maybe.
Now that's yeah.
(07:07):
Too soon, too soon.
Anyway, and then she hugs himand like actually ends up like
smooching him, like kind of he'sthere.
And at first you're like, oh,are they sleeping together?
But no, they're not, becausehe's like, Oh my god, I'm sorry,
I shouldn't attend that.
Weird.
So she's in her car, she's like,it's cold out.
She's in her car and sort oftalking to herself to like get
it together, like it's gonna beokay.
(07:29):
And her daughter knocks on thedoor.
Her daughter's name is Kit,played by Claire Danes, who was
in fact 16 at the time she was.
Right.
She was right off of thecoattails of My So-Called Life.
So Claire Danes is her daughterand she's like, Let me drive.
You're already late.
(07:50):
So Kit drives her to theairport.
She is not going with her tograndma and grandpa's house.
As Kit is about to drive away,she rolls down the window and
says, By the way, mom, I'm gonnahave sex with Tommy or Tim.
I'm gonna have sex with Tim thisweekend.
We're ready.
I paid attention to what yousaid, like we're grown-ups.
Like you see Claudia's face sortof fall.
It's all the wonderful.
(08:12):
Yeah, exactly.
And the cop like makes her driveaway.
And this is the days before forcell phones.
So Kit has given her theboyfriend's parents' number,
like landline on a slip ofpaper.
She's walking through theairport, her very fashionable
wool coat falls off of the likebag or like crossbody bag, and
we see it gets left behind.
(08:34):
She's sitting on the plane, andthe woman next to her is like
very in her face, very nosy.
She does one of the there waslike a phone, which this is like
a real throwback to those days.
There was like a phone in theseat, in the middle seat that
you could like use a credit cardto make a call.
It was like$5 per minute.
It was super expensive.
So we see her make a call.
(08:55):
She gets the answering machineof her brother Tommy, and she
admits kind of in tears a littlebit that she, you know what
happened?
I made out with my boss.
I got fired.
I don't know what I'm gonna do.
And kids probably having sex.
And the nosy, and then she hangsup, she goes, that was moronic.
And the nosy next seater goes,you know who's a moron?
(09:16):
My son.
Like it's so bizarre.
Her parents greet her in theairport in Baltimore, although
they never say Baltimore.
I think like all of the stuffaround it has said that it's
Baltimore.
And I think it is supposed to beBaltimore, but they never
actually say that.
Anyway, her parents greet her inthe airport, and it they are
played by Anne Bancroft andCharles Derning.
(09:37):
So two like megastars, agingmegastars, but megastars.
And they're like adorable andnosy and embarrassing.
Mom has brought an extra parkain case Claudia has lost her
jacket, and she has.
And so it's this veryunfashionable like 1980s puffer
coat, like long duster, like ina bright fuchsia.
(09:59):
And so we just sort of see herkind of like being miserable in
her childhood home.
She says to her mom, I mightchange, I'm thinking I might
change jobs.
I don't know if this is theright place for me.
And her mom goes, Oh, they firedyou.
unknown (10:12):
Oh God.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
So her mom's able to somehow like read her mind.
So many shenanigans ensue.
We think that the brother who'swho she left the message for
can't come, but then he shows upin the middle of the night with
another man in tow, and he is ajerk.
He the brother.
I think he's supposed to be, he,the brother, is a jerk.
(10:34):
The brother, Tommy, played byRobert Downey Jr., is just manic
and all over the place.
And when he comes into thehouse, it's the middle of the
night, they're already likeeverybody's already in bed, and
he sneaks into her bedroom andlike throws the covers off and
immediately like takes aPolaroid picture of her, like
with the big flash, and she'slike, what's happening?
(10:55):
And then he like lifts her shirtup and like puts the camera
under her shirt and takesanother picture, which, like,
what the actual fuck, dude.
Anyway, she thinks that thefriend who's in tow is his new
boyfriend, and she keeps saying,What happened to Jack?
Jack was his boyfriend, who thewhole family apparently liked.
(11:16):
And so she's like a little upsetthat like there's this new guy
here.
We meet her sister, Joanne, whoI think is meant to be the
middle sister, because we hearmom tell Claudia that Claudia is
her oldest and her smartest.
So Joanne comes with herhusband, played by Steve
Gutenberg.
His name is Walter.
(11:37):
The character's name is Walter.
So, like, this is like anall-star cast.
And they have two obnoxiouskids.
They are very conservative, likesmall C conservative, like very
old-fashioned dress that she'swearing with like a little white
lace collar, and like he's likebuttoned up, and we see
immediately that Walter does notlike Tommy, and Tommy does not
(12:00):
like Walter.
Tommy's the brother.
Walter's the brother-in-law.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
Um, real quick, is Holly Hunter, is Claudia
divorced?
Is she a widow?
We don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
We don't know at this point.
We just don't know.
So Joanne and Walter havebrought their own turkey, and
like weirdness ensues.
There's also Aunt Glady, who isthe mother's sister.
So the mother, Anne Bank, AnneBancroft's character's name is
Adele.
So Adele's sister Gladdy isthere, who is totally off her
(12:30):
rocker, and like goes off onthese this weird tangent about
how she's had a crush on Henry,the dad, played by Charles
Derning, like since she firstlaid eyes on him, like 50 years
ago or something.
And the thing is, like, thewhole table is like watching, I
think it's new information, andyet none of them are
particularly surprised.
(12:52):
A turkey carcass lands ends upin Joanne's lap, the buttoned up
one, and she like, and it'sTommy's fault.
And she just like loses her mindand curses at him.
And then she yells at him, Howdare you that he got married to
Jack on the beach in Boston, andshe has people in Boston who are
(13:16):
talking, and it's soembarrassing.
How could he not realize thatthere are other people in this
world?
And you're like, oh, I'm like,oh, she's not just sour.
Like, she's awful to send thatkind of homophobia at him.
And like, he's a jerk.
And I'm sure he's made her lifemiserable, but like the thing
that she actually goes after himabout for being out, ew.
(13:38):
F off.
Yeah.
Like, so in the meantime, likeLeo Fish has been very friendly
with Claudia the whole time shethought he was gay and with her
brother.
Like at one point, she is out onthe street, she's walking in
this terrible coat, and a highschool acquaintance pulls up in
(14:01):
a convertible with another highschool acquaintance.
They're together now, and islike, it's one of those very
awkward moments.
And Leo Fish actually sort ofsaves her from that.
Like the friend, the frenemysays, How old is your son now?
Didn't you have a son?
And she's like, Oh, my daughter,she's actually, and Leo comes up
(14:22):
and says, She's 18 now.
She's we're so proud of her.
And then he says the something,I don't remember the what why
it's appropriate, but he says,Speaking of that, isn't your
coat endangered?
Because she's wearing thefrenemy's wearing a fur coat.
And the woman says, Well, yes,but it wasn't when I bought it.
And he goes, Well, then you didyour part today.
(14:44):
And it's like this beautifulcomeuppance for this woman who
was really trying to humiliateClaudia.
So there have, and there havebeen sort of sweet moments like
that where he's clearly likebeing friendly.
She thinks he's with herbrother.
Now that it's come out thatTommy and Jack are married, he's
like, You really thought I wasshe's like, Yeah, I really did.
(15:05):
So shenanigans ensue, and hesays to her, that the two of
them are in a car together, andLeo says to Claudia, Your
brother showed me your picture,and I wanted to come meet you.
And she's we see that sheactually sort of likes the
attention.
He's very handsome.
She has said to her brother,Yeah, he's a pretty boy.
(15:27):
She thought they were talkingabout him for Tommy, but she did
acknowledge that he's goodlooking.
And then as he's getting out ofthe car, he says, That picture
your brother showed me, that wassomething else.
Then we cut to her, she's in thecar and she's like fixing her
lipstick.
The POV cuts to Leo, who'sinside a diner or something,
(15:50):
asking for a cup of coffee.
And the kid behind the counter,who's like a teenager, does not
is like, we're close.
And he says, Look, I'm here,aren't I?
Like, give me some coffee, Iwill pay you for it.
And Leo says to this kid, forus, the viewers, to hear, you're
putting up this boundary becauseyou're so young, you don't know,
you think there are plenty ofwonderful girls out there who
(16:11):
can make you happy.
And I'm telling you, there justaren't.
So just give me the cup ofcoffee, the two cups of coffee,
please.
But after he delivers thatmonologue, she comes into the
diner and she says, Was I nakedin that picture?
And she's very upset.
A few minutes in the movielater, they're talking and he's
like, Come on, Claudia, give methe time of day.
(16:33):
Just give me the time of day.
And then he forcibly kisses.
Oh God.
Oh god.
And because it's 1995, she'sinto it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
So they sort of end up back at the house, they're
making out on the couch, and thebrother like interrupts them.
They didn't know he was there,like under her blanket.
And she goes, she's like, youknow what?
I gotta go.
And she goes up to her room,which is her childhood bedroom,
and Leo follows her.
(17:09):
And at the door of her childhoodbedroom, she's like, No, like
this isn't gonna work.
Like you live too far away.
It's like, it's just it's toomuch.
Just no.
And I was a little worried as Iwas watching it that he was
gonna sort of be coercive again.
But in fact, he just is likeClaudia.
Like he whispers her name,touches her cheek, and walks
away.
Thank God.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Where does Tommy live and Leo?
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
They left Boston.
Okay.
The next morning we see Claudiaawake really early and look out
the window.
Tommy and Leo are getting in thecar.
Mom Adele is like sending themoff and wishing them well, and
they drive away.
We have a quiet moment withClaudia and her dad in the
basement.
He's watching video or film,like old film of like when they
(17:55):
were when the children werekids.
And we've seen him with thevideo camera the entire time.
Like he keeps being told heneeds to put it down.
And they're watching and theysort of have a sweet moment, and
he tells a story about when theywere kids, when the kids were
little.
We know that he's that he was anairplane mechanic.
He worked at the airport.
And so he got them into when the727s were released, and they
(18:16):
stood at the end of the runwayand they like were very close to
watch it take off.
And the other kids wereterrified and like clinging to
his legs.
But there was my girl.
She was just standing there.
You were fearless.
And then they take her to theairport, and like they all have
been talking about how theycan't wait for this holiday to
be over, but of course they'recrying when they're saying
(18:37):
goodbye at the airport.
And then we're watching Claudiain the airplane, sort of it's a
relatively empty airplane.
And then who should walk downthe aisle but Leo Fish?
So he's on the plane.
He has bought a round trip toBalts to Chicago, rather, where
she's going.
And he just wants to like spenda couple hours with her on the
(18:59):
plane and just see what happens.
He's not promising to movethere.
Like he has his return ticketalready for later that same day.
And the final minutes of thefilm are these look-like home
movies of moments that we knowwere not recorded.
So we see that airplane moment.
(19:22):
We see the moments when AuntGlady and Henry, who is dad,
like danced and he kissed herthat one time, which we heard
the story about.
We see Jack and Tommy's weddingon the beach, which Tommy told
us there are no pictures becausemom asked to see some.
And then we cut back to the twoof them on the plane.
So there are a couple other likekey moments that I think are
(19:44):
significant in analysis that I'mjust gonna say one of them out
of order, which is that theyseem to be acceptance without
acknowledgement of Tommy'shomosexuality.
And except for Claudia.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
You mean Joanne?
SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
No, I mean Claudia d didn't actually acknowledge Dan
Dixon.
Oh, I see.
I see.
Like she actually was likeembracing of Jack and
everything.
Joanne Neither.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Yes, okay.
That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Okay.
But now that the family knowsthat Tommy and Jack are married,
Jack actually calls becauseremember, landlines.
So he calls to speak to Tommy,and the dad takes the phone, or
he's the one who answers thephone, and he says, You know,
Jack, and I think I really meanthis.
Congratulations.
unknown (20:32):
God.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
And then he looks at his son and he goes, You deserve
better.
You're a good kid.
Which honestly, I agree withhim.
He deserves better.
I don't know him, but likeTommy's a dick.
So that felt a little bitimportant, especially with the
Joanne homophobia.
There's also a moment whenClaudia Fowler like goes to
(20:53):
Joanne's house to talk to her,and like Joanne accuses her of
thinking she's so much.
She says, like Joanne says toClaudia, you think you're so
much better than we are.
Which Claudia thinks she's acomplete fuck up.
Like she's convinced she's acomplete fuck up.
There's a scene when the itcomes out when Joanne breaks the
news that Jack and Tommy aremarried.
(21:16):
Somehow it also happens, likeTommy shares, he had listened to
his messages and says thatClaudia got fired.
And then Claudia goes and sitson his lap and she like
basically gives him permissionto tell the whole of everything.
And then we learn that when wehear that Kit might be having
sex, she doesn't, by the way.
We learn that Claudia was ateenage mom and she never
(21:38):
actually married the Kit'sfather.
Okay.
Kit's father.
We learned that when thefrenemy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Why the frenemy was being okay.
So so well, and I because Idon't have a sense of Holly
Hunter's age, so but she wouldhave been about 32.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Yeah, I think she she was early 30s.
Because she says to Fish, I wasa young mother, I wasn't that
young.
She's only 16, not 18.
So it was a little out of order,but it kind of doesn't matter
because it's like a series ofvignettes.
Like, and in terms of like Imean, it's not it's a it's a
slice of life.
In terms of the direction andlike the sets and the characters
(22:19):
and the costumes, if this werejust a family drama and we
remove Leo Fish altogether,where he actually was, in fact,
a new boyfriend, I would haveloved this movie.
Yeah.
Like there's something like realand resonant in the like when
Claudia goes to talk to Joanneafter, you know, the dust has
(22:40):
settled and and they've left,and it got real messy.
Walter and Tommy were likeliterally came to fusticuffs and
were like rolling around on theground outside, and dad like
sprayed the hose on them tobreak them up, like in the
middle of November in Baltimore,or late November in Baltimore.
So like it was real ugly.
And after all of that, likeClaudia goes to talk to Joanne,
(23:03):
and Joanne just she's like shesays to her, if we met, if we
just met on the street and yougave me your phone number, I
would throw it away.
And Claudia says, We don't haveto like each other, Joe.
We're family.
And like I think that actuallyis the heart of it, right?
I would have really enjoyed thismovie.
(23:25):
The insertion of the romance,which is what I remembered most
about it.
Yeah.
Like made it, it left a very badtaste in my mouth.
And one of the things about itthat I want to name too, that
makes it sort of not forgivable,but I do see sort of the
cultural piece of it.
(23:46):
Adele and Henry, mom and dad,like there's this constant sort
of like loving bickering.
And at one point, he grabs herand starts dancing, and she
says, No, I don't have time.
I don't want to dance.
But then he keeps going, and sheeventually like stops fighting
(24:10):
and in fact seems to enjoyherself.
Like she's smiling and dancingtoo.
So that sort of like not justlike not consent, but sort of
against like expressed declinethat then gets overcome and is
enjoyed by the object of that.
(24:30):
We see in this other place, inthis relationship that I don't
know that we're supposed tothink is like perfect,
certainly, but is kind of amodel.
Yeah.
Well, it's at least the modelfor these relationships.
Right.
So I just like I just wanted toname that in in particular
because the coercive moment ofthe like, give me the time of
(24:52):
day and he kisses her anyway,like was so uh upsetting to me
as to you when I just relate it.
And yet it had this precedent.
I don't want to dance right now,Henry.
So I think speaks to a littlebit of like what we thought was
romantic in 1995.
Yeah.
(25:12):
There was almost like this sensethat like she was supposed to
like resist in some way.
The wearing her down was that'swhat courtship looks like.
Which, like, in retrospect,like, ew, ew, ew, ew.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
You know, I've been thinking about this.
We're recording this in lateOctober.
It's just after Diane Keatonpassed away.
And I remember really liking themovie Baby Boom.
Do you remember that movie?
Yes.
I didn't see it for a while andthen watched it again, like, and
I still in my teens.
I don't think this was justDiane Keaton, but there were
(25:51):
several movies that she was inwhere it did this where it
seemed like the point of themovie, the point of the love
interest of the movie was tohumiliate her because the love
interest was the local vet.
I don't remember what happens.
I think she has a panic attackor something like that.
And so she ends up like wakingup in his hospital and she
thinks he's a doctor.
(26:12):
And like, but oh no, no, he'snot a doctor.
He's a vet.
And like she finds out in themost humiliating way possible.
And then there's a similar scenewhere when he kisses her for the
first time, she's it's the samesort of like, no, I'm not
interested.
And then he kisses her, and thenshe like becomes boneless and is
like, oh, this is all I've everwanted.
I remembered loving that when Isaw it when I was a kid.
(26:34):
And then, like, less than 10years later, when I was a
teenager seeing it going, like,what the hell am I watching?
And so it's the same sort ofthing where it's like all we
ever wanted was a man's tonguein our throat.
You know?
Like all of a sudden that thatovercomes everything we thought
we wanted.
It's not that that's all we everwanted.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
It's more that's what we needed.
Because we didn't think wewanted it, right?
Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
It's it's really it's unfortunate.
And then you mentioned thatJodie Foster is the uh is the
director.
SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
This is not her debut.
This is her second directorialendeavor.
Yeah, I would like I actuallysaid that to the friend that I
watched it with.
I was like kind of disappointedthat it was directed by a woman,
that it also had this thisromance.
Who's the writer?
SR something Richter.
It was not a name that Irecognized.
(27:27):
Screenplay was by Chris Radentor Redont and W.
D.
Richter.
I knew Richter.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Either of those could be any gender.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah, I found that piece alittle disappointing, but also
all the more evidence that likethis was culture.
This is what we thought romancelooked like and was supposed to
look like.
And it did, you know, work atthe time.
So Yeah.
(27:57):
On that score, in terms of likewhat we accepted, I let's talk
about this idea of likeforgiving bad behavior when a
person makes us laugh.
Tommy, Robert Downey Jr.'scharacter, is like there was all
these practical jokes and likenever serious.
(28:18):
And just he does this thingwhere, so he's driving and he
says something that's really,really obnoxious.
And so Claudia gets out of thecar.
She's like, I'll just walk home.
I don't want to be with youright now.
And she's kind of playing, butkinda not.
That's when the friend of meconfronts her on the street.
She's gonna get back in the car,and Tommy's like, Come on, we
(28:40):
gotta go.
We are running late.
Seriously, get in the car.
Get in the car.
And then, you know, when shegoes to the handle, he drives
away.
Like multiple times.
Maybe that would be funny thefirst time.
Maybe the third time, it ain'tfunny.
Like, it's just not.
And the thing with the picturesand that he's showing them to
(29:04):
his friends.
Oh, yeah.
Like, there's nothing charmingabout that.
And yet we are meant to see andbelieve that the relationship
between Claudia and Tommy isreal and based on on mutual
affection, a little bit becauseit was us versus them in the
family.
Like they had each other againstlike their very sour sister and
(29:26):
their like overbearing and justout of control parents.
But also there's meant to belike real affection there.
And I think we are meant to sortof take in all of Tommy as this
sort of lovable road charmingcad sort of thing.
Exactly.
(29:48):
And it's a trope, it's astereotype.
And I think we as a societyought to stop pushing back
against it.
Like even if you did make melaugh.
Which I don't think most ofTommy's hijinks are particularly
funny.
But even if they were, thatdoesn't erase bad behavior.
(30:09):
And I feel like as like you andI have talked about this, like
as individuals, we do this andhave done with boyfriends past.
But even as a society, I feellike I like, I feel like we
learned that from somewhere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
And I feel like we I want us as a culture to start
pushing back on that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
It's also something that I struggle with.
And I feel like it's not solelywhite men that you find this,
but I'm more likely to find itamong white men than not taking
anything seriously.
I really struggle when I comeacross someone who doesn't take
anything seriously because it'sjust like, who are you?
(30:53):
Like, what do you actuallybelieve in?
Because like I'm all abouthumor.
I love to laugh.
I love to make jokes.
I like, if you can make melaugh, I really am glad to be
friends with you.
So it's not I want everything tobe serious at all.
And in fact, someone who takeseverything seriously, I also
have trouble comprehending.
(31:15):
But someone who takes nothingseriously makes me feel like I
don't know who you are.
There's no there.
I don't know, like when thechips are down, what you're
gonna fight for.
Right.
Right.
Right.
And so, and like when you'relike making that like, you know,
(31:37):
pulling ahead while yoursister's trying to get back in
the car, like what safety do youworry about?
Whose safety do you worry about?
Yeah, you know, not that likethere's it's one of those things
where like I know that she's notactually unsafe, but still,
she's under a lot of stress.
She's having a bad week.
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
You're gonna do this to her?
And he and he knows it, youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
She knows the bad week she's having.
And you're gonna do this to herin that awful fuchsia Barca.
Yeah.
Like, and this is someone thatyou love very much.
I don't like who are you?
Who are you really?
If it's like, and you and I'vetalked also about how we grew up
in a family where it was go forthe joke, go for the joke, and
(32:22):
how we've had to unpack that alittle bit.
Even having grown up with that,there is still a like above the
go for the joke, there is like,but you're my sister and like
you're having a tough time.
I'm gonna take care of you, youknow?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Right.
Which presumably is why hewasn't supposed to come to
Thanksgiving.
And he comes anyway, and hebrings a guy he thinks that
might be coach for Claudia.
So, like, maybe in his own way,he thinks that's what he's
doing.
Yeah.
Even like within the universe ofthe movie.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
And I think like what you were talking about is
like the kind of the truth oflike these kind of family
dynamics.
I think that there's somethingvery interesting.
Like, what happened in theirchildhoods that made Tommy this
way?
Like, what made him such anunreasonable dick, but who does
still care enough about hisfamily that he shows up anyway?
(33:18):
And he brings this guy who heshowed a naked picture of his
sister to, but thinks that she'dlike him.
And like, if he's not asociopath, how should he end up
this way?
SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
To that question, too.
Like, Joanne is like so type Aand she wants everything just
so.
And at one point she says toClaudia, I can't do everything.
This is like in the parents'home while they're trying to get
everything on the table.
And Claudia like picks somethingup off the kitchen table to take
it to the dining room table andsays, Nobody asked you to.
(33:54):
So then we see that with Joannetoo, where she feels as she
needs to be into control ofeverything.
And then she resents it, which Ithink we all know people like
that.
I have been that personoccasionally.
So the screenplay and theactors, and like they really get
to something that feels likereal and resonant.
(34:14):
And I appreciate that.
I think Foster's direction ispart of that.
I wish she'd left the romance ofit, I guess.
As much as you know, DylanMcDermott is really drew worthy
with the way he looks, but theway he acts is more
cringe-worthy.
Yeah.
Although he is like there's aneasy camaraderie between him and
(34:40):
Tommy.
Like they even like he givesTommy a piggyback at one point.
And thinking about it just rightnow, uh talking out like
thinking out loud right now,that he is in fact a straight
man with that kind of easy levelof comfort and physical touch
with a man uh uh a gay guy whois his boss.
Oh, really?
Like he worked for him.
(35:01):
They are like food sales people.
Like whole things.
Like they go up and yeah, foodand liquor.
It's not that the movie wants usto believe that Claudia's
falling for like a completereprobate or something.
Well, it's and in fact, he'sfollowing the script that was
the script for the leading manin 1995.
(35:22):
It's just that Well, it's from2025 that it's just it's it it's
very unfortunate.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
And the thing is, if he didn't look like Dermot
Mulrooney, would she have beenlike into the kiss?
Dur Dylan McDermott.
If he didn't look like DylanMcDermott, would she have been
into the kiss?
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Exactly.
If he had looked like DannyDeVito or Steve Buscemi, who I
know you find oddly sexy.
But if like if Steve Buscemi waslike, just give me the time of
day, Claudia, just give me thetime of day and kissed her, we
would all be like, even in 1995,we would have been like, Ew,
don't do that.
It shouldn't be a different setof rules.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You did say you wanted to talk alittle bit about like how
Tommy's queerness fits into likefamily dynamics.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
This felt really real too.
Like the older sister Claudiajust fully accepts, like, she's
actually upset that they'vebroken up and she doesn't know,
or she thinks that he and Jackhave broken up.
So her congratulations are likeso genuine and unqualified.
And in fact, if anything, she'sjust annoyed she wasn't invited
or even told, but not that he'smarried.
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
And is there a reason they didn't invite
anybody?
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
It is not explicitly given, but when Tommy talks to
Jack on the phone, Tommy sayssomething like, How's my real
family?
And we see Jack in his inwherever the Boston apartment
with a whole bunch of people.
And he says, Your real family isjust fine and we miss you, and
so and so is doing this, and soand so I think it's really one
(36:52):
can extrapolate that it'sbecause like mom and dad like
don't aren't kicking him out,but also aren't super like they
don't want to talk about it.
They just don't want to dealwith it.
They don't want to deal with it.
And Joanne is activelyantagonistic.
So I don't know why Claudiawouldn't have been invited.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Maybe that was like that would have invited that
would have in involved everyoneelse knowing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:19):
Maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But that sort of like acceptancewithout acknowledgement in the
mid-90s, that actually feltreal.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
And this moment of like, I think I really mean
this, congratulations, is likebackhanded.
And yet I think for 95 wasprobably pretty progressive.
Yeah.
One commentator I read said thatthat final scene that is like
film that doesn't actually existof the beach wedding between
Jack and Tommy was this person,this commentator was queer and
(37:50):
was saying, like, that wasactually the first like
on-screen gay wedding I eversaw.
Was this like few minutes, it'slike, I don't know, maybe two
minutes of film.
It's really not much.
So, so in that, like, in thatsense, like there there was
something there's somethingabout sort of reflecting reality
where the film is not judgingTommy and Jack.
(38:13):
Right?
It and it is judging Joanne.
Yes.
Yeah.
So that piece of it and in thefamily dynamic, and maybe that
explains the clowniness of himtoo.
Because if they're annoyed athim for his antics, they're not
talking about the fact that he'sgay.
Maybe.
That yeah, that that isunderstandable.
That's a in terms of your like,why is he like this?
(38:36):
Yeah.
So that was just something thatlike occurred to me, especially
when I read this commentator whosaid that was the first
on-screen gay wedding that thethat they had ever seen.
That like put it a little bitinto perspective of its time
in '95.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I also wanted to talk about thenature of memories.
As I was watching it, actually,I turned to my friend after the
(38:59):
credits are rolling and I waslike, I don't understand.
Like those final clips, like, weknow they didn't actually exist.
And so and it's so it's actuallyhad to bake for me, which I
don't know if that recommends itor doesn't.
But it's had to bake for me alittle bit in terms of thinking
about like the nature ofmemories.
Because the dad says, I wish Icould have gotten that on film
(39:21):
about the airport moment.
And in fact, the film that wesee is slightly different than
the way he described it.
Because he says, You were therestanding on your own.
And in the memory, we see theother two kids like grabbed onto
his legs, and he's got her inhis arms, and they're both like
looking, like she's not coweringat all, like the other two are.
(39:42):
But she's in his arms, notstanding on her own.
And so one like those subtlechanges kind of make me think
that there's a commentarysubtext layered in there about
the nature of memory and aboutlike this need to capture it
(40:03):
versus like what is real.
I'm putting quotes around thatword.
And like, is which is real?
The way that Henry remembers itor the way it actually happened,
and like, does it really matter?
And like those sorts of likethose questions actually start
to come up for me when I look alittle deeper at the way that
(40:25):
this film ends.
Which I think is really likethat actually is interesting to
me.
But I still don't know what ithas to say about the love, the
subplot of the of the romance,right?
Like, I think like Roger Ebertseemed in his contemporaneous
review, he actually quite likedit, but he seemed to think like
(40:49):
that this wasn't like suggestingthis was the romance for the
ages, just that they might getalong if they had more time.
Maybe.
Maybe.
But like I'm just not sure whereto put it or what lesson I'm
supposed to take.
I mean, like, clearly, Claudia,she says like Boston is so far
away, like this will never work.
(41:09):
Like, she doesn't want just acasual one night sort of a
thing.
We're not left to think thatthere's anything more possible.
Like he's turning around rightaway.
But maybe that's enough, andmaybe that's sort of the memory,
like this thing that dad wasdescribing as his best day ever.
(41:31):
The actu he even says it wasactually like maybe three
minutes.
And so so sort of that like thattension between the fleeting
nature of the joy itself and thelongevity of the memory of the
joy, and the fact that like theactual like logistics of the
(41:52):
moments don't need to align inorder for him to continue to
have that joy.
I'm like saying like this isactually new ideas right now as
I'm speaking.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
So this is bringing up several things for me.
One being that, and I'll have tolook this up, but I've read that
when you remember something,you're actually remembering the
last time you thought about it.
Oh like, which is why memory isso malleable and not something
that you can count on.
Like that's why like uheyewitness testimony is not that
(42:25):
great when it comes to courtcases and things like that,
which is like held like uh it'sa great example of that, that
his memory is that she wasstanding alone, and then we're
see the real story is that he'sholding her.
And so that gets to, I took amemoir class earlier this year
where I was writing, and I'vealways struggled with memoir
(42:47):
because it's like as soon as Iwrite it, I'm fictionalizing it
because anything you put down,like it's not exactly as it
happened.
But the thing is, what Iremember isn't exactly as it
happened because it'simpossible.
And so, like, the nature ofmemory is already fictionalized
because it's gone through likemy own little filter, and then I
(43:08):
am remembering the last time Ithought about it.
And so there are some thingsfrom my kids' early childhood.
So we happen to get my youngerson's first steps on video, and
it's on social media, one of thesocial media platforms that you
know shows you things like onthis day so many years ago.
(43:30):
So I see it every year.
And I don't recall my olderson's first steps.
And I've wondered like it's ajoy to see that every time.
But I now don't remember, like,because it was my husband taking
the video.
So I remember seeing the video.
(43:50):
I don't remember being myselfbecause my son was And watching
him take him take the stepstowards me because he's walking
towards me.
I remember seeing it from theside.
And so from from your husband'sfrom my husband's point of view,
and so like that doesn't makelike re repeatedly seeing this
(44:11):
any less joyful.
Every time I see it, it makes mehappy.
But at the same time, like I'velost the point of view.
That's something that I've cometo appreciate as I'm thinking
about, because I get anxiouswhen I think about the fact that
like once I'm gone, all of myexperiences are gone.
But they're mine and like theykind of have to be gone when I'm
(44:39):
gone.
You know, like that that findingthat balance between like if I
were to like have them allrecorded in some way, they'd
still be gone because you'd onlyhave it from the side.
You wouldn't have the firstperson POV that I've lost
anyway, because it was myhusband who took the video.
Because it's the nature ofmemories.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that definitely alignswith sort of whether consciously
or unconsciously is happeningfor Foster.
I think that's a Jody Fosterthing.
I think this is a directorialthing to have those final
moments the way that they were.
Yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
It's quite a lot for a throw away a little rom-com.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Yeah.
So the last thing I'll justmention because it was actually
really funny.
It was one time when both myfriend and I laughed really
hard, was near the end, they'rewatching the TV, or at some
point they're watching the TV.
Claudia and her dad are watchingTV, and it's like maybe like a
32-inch tube TV.
And she says, That's a reallybig TV, dad.
And he says, Yeah, it's too big.
(45:43):
And I'm watching it on my like50-inch like flat screen, you
know?
Like that was that actually waspretty funny.
We both laughed out loud.
So there's actually kind of alot in this movie, as much as it
was like, yeah, like you say,kind of a throwaway rom-com.
It passes Bechtel so many ways.
That's right.
So many ways.
Left, right, and center.
So, as a reminder, listeners,the Bechtel test from Allison
(46:05):
Bechtel, who is an amazingcartoonist.
You should check out her work.
We ask ourselves threequestions.
Are there at least two namedfemale characters?
Yes.
Do they talk to each other?
Yes.
Do they talk to each other aboutsomething other than a man or a
boy?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Like there's Adele and Claudiatalk about things other than
men, and Claudia and Joannetalk, and Claudia and Kit talk,
(46:27):
and Joanne and Adele talk, likeall of the many named female
characters talk to one anotherabout many things besides men
and boys.
So Aunt Gladdy and Claudia talkabout things other than men and
boys.
So that's a good thing.
It still has a bit of an ickfactor, but it does pass back
time.
So let me see if I can reflectback some of the things that I
(46:49):
brought you, some of my deepthoughts about home for the
holidays, just in time forThanksgiving.
So this film has kind of an ickypicture of like courtship and
romance.
I think is characteristic of thetime.
But there is a sense that, like,even if she's saying no, she
(47:09):
actually really does want that,whatever that might be, in this
case, his tongue down herthroat.
And he has sort of a his task incourtship is to kind of wear her
down, to interpret that no,which is really gross.
Now, to the film's credit, thankGod, when he's standing at the
(47:32):
door of her bedroom, it wasreally gross.
The way he was trying to wearher down right there, he was
like, Come on, Claudia, bebrave.
Which, like, ew, yucky, dude,there's no there's no moral
merit in sleeping with you.
But I don't need bravery toanyway.
SPEAKER_01 (47:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Get in a pan.
But when she is like, yeah, no,he sort of expresses affection
for her and walks away.
Thank God.
But earlier in the film, like heforcibly kisses her and turns
out she likes it.
Which gross.
That's a choice.
That's a choice.
(48:09):
That's a writing and adirectorial choice.
What this film does really,really well and is like very
resonant is sort of the familydynamic where people, even
though outside of this childhoodhome are like fully formed
adults, like they get back intotheir childhood space and they
are snarking at each other liketheir kids.
(48:31):
And all of the old hurts come tothe surface at this Thanksgiving
table, which reads as very, verytrue.
It just reads as real and theway that people are.
And even some of the types,right?
The overfunctioning middle childwho feels like she has to do
everything, even though no oneasked her to.
(48:52):
And she's resentful for havingto do everything.
Like, I know her.
I've been her.
Like that really reads as true.
I would never castigate mysibling for getting married
publicly in an embarrassing way.
But hey, look, it was a moonbounce.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
It was fun.
SPEAKER_00 (49:15):
That motorcycle made great.
Baked into that family dynamicis also Tommy, the character
Tommy, played by Robert DowneyJr., his queerness, his gayness,
which is like also, again, likeI think characteristic of the
time where there's from theother characters, most of them,
(49:36):
an acceptance without a fullacknowledgement.
Like, yeah, it's okay thatyou're gay, but like, don't put
it in my face from most of thefan the rest of the family.
And even this moment from thedad, like, I think I mean this,
congratulations to the husband,which I think for 95 was
probably pretty progressive.
It's it does not feel that wayanymore.
The there was also like theykept asking Tommy if he had worn
(49:58):
a dress, which was WTF.
Yeah.
They just have a hard timeimagining a wedding without a
dress, apparently.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
Because that's an integral part of a service, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
Like obviously.
So in our talking, we alsowondered if maybe Tommy's
charming roguishness, which doesnot read as particularly
charming in 2025, but maybethere was something of that that
was a coping mechanism todistract the family from talking
about Tommy's gayness becausethey were too busy talking about
(50:33):
his antics that you and I kindof speculated about.
In answer to your question, likewhat made him like this?
Right.
He his antics are really grossand embarrassing and not okay.
And we're meant to accept thembecause Claudia does as proxy
for the audience.
We're meant to also accept thembecause the the movie's from her
point of view.
But there was some interestingstuff in there, I think, about
(50:56):
the nature of memories.
And that's made possible in partby the medium of film, right?
And the question about likememories committed to film or
some other thing, that then thatcapture becomes real rather than
the memories.
And then you shared an anecdoteabout how you've lost the point
of view of your younger kids'first steps because your memory
(51:18):
is tied up in the video that youhave of it, which was from your
husband's point of view at thetime, which I think is a really
interesting kind of personallens reflection of what I think
this film is getting at aboutthe nature of memory and
recording those memories.
I was a little disappointed thatit had this yucky romance stuff
and was also directed by awoman.
(51:39):
At the same time, there arethings about her direction that
were masterful.
I think the family dynamics, thechoices about the home, like all
the little knickknacks and shitthat's in the home that like
makes sense for people who'vebeen living there for 40 years
or whatever.
Like it really was believable.
I had a moment very early onwhere I was like, that's not
(52:00):
Chicago, that's the BaltimoreMuseum of Art.
That's not O'Hare.
That's the that's BWI.
And then they were supposed tohave flown from.
And so, and then in my head, I'mthinking, like, well, maybe she
only had to pay for like onlocation in one city if she did
it that way.
Which I mean, that I guess thatmakes sense.
Because the other neighborhoodscenes definitely do look like
Baltimore.
I don't know.
(52:20):
As someone who's lived in bothChicago and Baltimore, like I
wanted this movie to be betterthan it was.
SPEAKER_01 (52:27):
I wanted it to be on location in both cities.
SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
But I guess you, you know, you take what you can get.
Anyway, what did I forget?
Did I forget anything that wetalked about?
No, no, I think that's you thinkyou you got everything.
Well, listeners, I hope that youare able to leave some of the
drama away from the Thanksgivingtable.
But if you can't, we have awhole back catalog and you can
(52:53):
go distract yourself bylistening to old episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (52:58):
Yes.
Just put on the bow'sheadphones, you can't hear
anything else.
Just us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:03):
Just laugh with us.
All right.
Well, so next time, Em, what areyou doing?
I'm bringing you my deepthoughts on Strictly Ballroom.
Oh that one.
I loved that movie.
Yeah.
Hi.
So I'll look forward to thatthen.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
(53:24):
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(53:46):
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.